Open mike 17/07/2023

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 17th, 2023 - 67 comments
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67 comments on “Open mike 17/07/2023 ”

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  1. Dennis Frank 1
    17 July 2023 at 6:24 am

    For a political marketing expert, Labour's campaign slogan to examine…

    Lee, who is an associate professor in the University of Auckland’s marketing department, said before he could really analyse the slogan’s potential, the competition had to publish theirs.

    Good point: comparative analysis rules, okay?

    “Aside from the Green Party, no-one else could use a slogan like this one – National don’t have the ‘street cred’ to pull it off, but the question is does Labour still have it?” https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/132554743/labour-says-theyre-in-it-for-you–have-they-shown-it

    There was an appetite for change, he said, and this slogan could have missed an opportunity to tap into that desire. If National and the Greens were to “play their cards right”, their campaign slogans should do just that.

    “I can bet it will be something that is encouraging people to change, for something new.”

    I wouldn't. Clueless dork syndrome has all parties in its relentless grasp. I'll be a war of evasive banalities. One of bomber's commentators defined the Labour target niche for us with succinct elegance:

    Transgender Maori vegan cyclist members of the Wellington bureaucracy.

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/07/16/in-it-for-you-as-long-as-you-are-a-property-speculator-banks-or-mega-wealthy/

    • Mac1 1.1
      17 July 2023 at 8:15 am

      "Transgender Maori vegan cyclist members of the Wellington bureaucracy."

      What a shameful outing of prejudice and 'othering' of minorities in the guise of humour…. 'clueless dork' indeed.

      • Mac1 1.1.1
        17 July 2023 at 8:47 am

        Just to add some figures into this issue.

        Māori are 17% of our community.

        Vegans are 6% of our community.

        Transgender people are 0.0-2% of our community.

        Cyclists number 21% of our community.

        Wellington bureaucrat number 28,054 or 0.5% of our community. They comprise 44% of all of our civil servants.

        All in all, our clueless dork has insulted two fifths of the population. If he showed 'succinct elegance', then I'm glad I'm a wordy wearer of ill-fitting hand-me-downs.

        • Belladonna 1.1.1.1
          17 July 2023 at 6:57 pm

          Not that I support insulting anyone, but looking at the quoted figures.

          That seems like a very high population percentage for Vegans.
          Do you have a source for this?

          I can't find any official surveys – but one research project from 2021 indicates that there are around 6% vegetarians and vegans.

          It is difficult to know exactly how many people living in Aotearoa New Zealand are vegetarians as different statistics are reported by different organisations and researchers. A national poll in 2019 suggested that 1 in 10 New Zealanders were vegetarian, up 3% from the year before. A larger scale national research project in 2021 found that 6% were vegetarian or vegan.

          https://healthify.nz/hauora-wellbeing/v/vegetarianism-veganism/

          The site, annoyingly, doesn't link to either source….

          It's *possible* that it's this one:

          https://www.scimex.org/newsfeed/most-kiwis-still-eat-meat

          If the number of vegetarians is around 6%, I'd say that the numbers of vegans would be considerably lower….

          I'm presuming that the survey informs the NZ Wikipedia data – which has Vegetarians at 6% – and no total for Vegans at all.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country

      • Dennis Frank 1.1.2
        17 July 2023 at 8:56 am

        I agree that minorities have nothing to be ashamed of. Any attempt to selectively correlate Labour's campaign strategy with a select nexus of such minority groups is proceeding upon a flawed assumption: it's the Greens who are more likely to do what the commentator expects.

        The entire point of Labour is to seem different to National in the tiny minds of sheeple. So Labour will inevitable target the soft underbelly of National poll supporters. For another insight into that, tune into 1News tonight. RNZ's deputy political editor told us earlier this morning that they will feature another poll.

        • Mac1 1.1.2.1
          17 July 2023 at 9:54 am

          You wrote "I agree that minorities have nothing to be ashamed of." Do you agree that minorities should not be disrespected, as our clueless dork did?

          The same clueless dork who you quoted approvingly with "succinct elegance".

          Sorry, Dennis, but you don't walk away from this one without acknowledging that you approved of, and re-quoted to us, a racist, prejudiced, bigoted and shameful comment.

          It's the opposite of "In it for you"!

          • Dennis Frank 1.1.2.1.1
            17 July 2023 at 10:26 am

            I don't have that sectarian view of things. Usage of categories in political commentary is endemic, so why anyone would be fussed about any particular usage by leftists or rightists isn't ever likely to be evident to a centrist.

            The entire point of any particular usage is whether it is effective propaganda or not. You're aware of how toxic wokeism has become for leftists? Important to learn from such unhealthy cultural trends whenever they occur.

            Unless it learns how to do effective political framing, the left isn't likely to get much attraction amongst floating voters. Merely virtue-signalling at them has failed. Are you trying to suggest that such failure can't be learnt from?

            • Mac1 1.1.2.1.1.1
              17 July 2023 at 11:16 am

              "Transgender Maori vegan cyclist members of the Wellington bureaucracy."

              This is a political framing of a point of view that is the opposite of what I stand for- literally, in my case, because I have been a political candidate.

              Belittling terms have always been around. I choose to object to them when I feel that if I don't object then I become complicit.

              I'm old enough to remember 'political framing' aka insults, such as 'bleeding heart liberal', 'pinko', 'commo', 'lefty', 'peacenik', 'and more recently 'virtue-signalling', 'politically correct' and a 'woke' practitioner of the 'politics of envy'.

              Are you arguing that we should also be into such political framing in order to compete?

              I much prefer 'In it for you".

              Yes, you. All those pakeha, meat-loving, car-addicted, straight(-ish), provincial self-employed persons included.

              At least, there was no mention of women in our 'clueless dork' friend's statement.

              Because that issue raised itself on the Standard with misogynistic rants in the time of PM Jacinda Ardern. I rebutted them, too.

              Look where that pile of insults got those mysogynistic 'political framers' in 2020 when women turned out for Labour.

              The level of insults in this election is now, and will be high- as a counter to the politics of inclusion, fairness, compassion and "in it for you'.

              • Dennis Frank …
                17 July 2023 at 12:02 pm

                I do understand where you are coming from, as a result of your articulation of it. There's a spectrum tween framing and insult. Seems to me some folks will see an insult where none was intended. One often sees that with satire, irony, etc. Some folks see a motive that the framer doesn't have.

                My view is akin to that of an amateur social scientist: I note framings that achieve resonance because they then operate similarly to levers or portals, inasmuch as resonance tends to constellate collective opinion.

                In my view a commentator has a mental interface with the public arena, as well as a tech interface. Each of those being driven by a triad (user/interface/public) plus a tetrad (user/interface/network/public) when you incorporate the systems view. Such is the basis of ecosystemic human relations in the Deep Green view, but one must to go further & include stuff like mimesis/memetics that generate field effects between people & systems.

            • tWiggle 1.1.2.1.1.2
              17 July 2023 at 5:25 pm

              Toxic wokeism, unhealthy cultural trends, virtue signalling. Dennis Frank, you're seasoning your comments with meaningless rw catchphrases again.

              I'm guessing you are a casualty of the meaningless rw culture war against phantoms…Head injury?

              • weka …
                17 July 2023 at 5:32 pm

                Head injury?

                Don't do that. You had an argument that you could make coherently, insulting someone doesn't add to that, it just inflames things.

          • Phillip ure 1.1.2.1.2
            17 July 2023 at 1:34 pm

            @ macl..

            You left out 'fleshist'..

            (Def: flesh-eater who sneers at non-flesh-eaters..)

            • Mac1 1.1.2.1.2.1
              17 July 2023 at 2:42 pm

              Philip, I left out a lot of things. I am all of those things I listed though I do own a bike that is unusually ridden (unusual in terms of frequency but especially since I don't often pedal as it's battery electric). But it sticks in my craw to read jokes based on 'othering'.

              I believe in joking at my own expense so I can take the piss of Irish and Scottish traits happily, being a Mac1, but not of others. One little trick I learned is to tell Irish jokes but change the subject of the humour to a Kiwi- suddenly it's not funny any more!

              "How do you get a Kiwi up onto a roof?" "Tell him the drinks are on the house…."

              I'm a Kiwi, btw.

          • JeremyB 1.1.2.1.3
            17 July 2023 at 3:14 pm

            Hear hear.

      • Jilly Bee 1.1.3
        17 July 2023 at 5:06 pm

        Against my better judgement I ventured over to The Daily Blog for a wee gander. I soon vacated the blog site very rapidly. What a vapid next of vipers the commenters (and of course B B himself) have degenerated into. I used to make TDB one of my daily reads but thank Dog, no longer. I do wonder who 'they' will ultimately vote for, if at all.

  2. Dennis Frank 2
    17 July 2023 at 6:57 am

    [comment with quotes but no links deleted]

  3. Poldark 3
    17 July 2023 at 7:51 am

    This last weekend we went on a road trip from Nelson to Hokitika to celebrate a 100th birthday of a whanau and made it a round trip. (Via Reefton one way then Westport the other) Never saw 1 pothole. Never had a ramrade in our parts for about 20 years either for that matter!

    • Dennis Frank 3.1
      17 July 2023 at 8:12 am

      Interesting. A conspiracy theorist would deduce that this regional paradise effect was produced by a Labour strategy to grow their support base in the top of the South Island and west coast. As if departmental maintenance is regionally-driven, I presume.

      Although such regional bias would be denied by both the departmental heads and the minister, to reassure sheeple. In order to import ram-raids into your region, you must first import the foreigners to establish attractive shops! Worked well in Ak.

    • Ad 3.2
      17 July 2023 at 8:55 am

      Nick Smith both as local MP and as Minister defended his part of the state highway network really well.

      Also that route barely gets a major truck.

      I do the Crown Range from Wanaka to Queenstown most days, and frankly it's a dream compared to anything north of Taupo.

  4. Hunter Thompson II 4
    17 July 2023 at 9:37 am

    I've been watching TV coverage of the Tour de France lately. No road potholes, although on one stage the riders had to contend with cobbles, which were very tricky and led to crashes.

    Seen this way France looks terrific, with its mountains and picturesque old towns.

    What's striking is how much vegetation cover the French have retained. A contrast with good old NZ, where the odd macrocarpa stands in a sea of grass.

    • Mac1 4.1
      17 July 2023 at 11:21 am

      My memory of 3000 kms of driving on French provincial roads was their quality, similar to our two-lane SH1 standard but mostly I remember the 70 km/h speed limit. A speed that respected safety, the road surface and the views to be had.

      • Bearded Git 4.1.1
        17 July 2023 at 12:12 pm

        Agreed Mac.

        The Crown Range is still 100km/h at the moment and there are regular accidents. I would speculate that many are caused by people being distracted by the wonderful views.

        A clear case for either 70km/h or 80km/h between Cardrona and SH6 at the Arrow Junction.

        Ad says (above) that he drives it most days-I wonder what he thinks.

      • Phillip ure 4.1.2
        17 July 2023 at 2:06 pm

        I came away from France with the conclusion that the french know how to do country…

        New Zealand does not…

        • tWiggle 4.1.2.1
          17 July 2023 at 5:32 pm

          France is happy to run national debt at 90-100% of GDP. It has been doing so for decades to prop up its excellent healthcare and aged care sectors, with retirement at 60y. Personal tax runs at ~40%.

  5. Dennis Frank 5
    17 July 2023 at 11:13 am

    Loneliness as producer of health costs: https://www.newsroom.co.nz/how-our-cities-could-help-alleviate-loneliness

    Dr David Jenkins and Eileen Corcoran sketch out three general directions Aotearoa urbanism might follow. Jenkins is a lecturer in political theory at the University of Otago. Corcoran is completing a Masters in Politics at the University of Otago

    According to Loneliness NZ, more than 650,000 Kiwis have felt lonely within the past four weeks, with 137,000 of them feeling lonely most or all of the time. Especially worrying is that loneliness is highest among 15-24-year-olds, a demographic in this country that has the highest rate of suicide within the OECD countries.

    First, rather than focus on moving materials around our cities, we should prioritise improving tenants’ rights. Improving security of tenure, imposing price controls and more strictly enforcing sanctions against errant landlords can help people put down the kinds of deep roots that turn neighbourhoods into communities.

    The Residential Tenancies Amendment Act 2020 signals improvements in the right direction but Aotearoa can continue to strengthen tenants’ rights and, perhaps, develop more proactive government provision of high-quality social housing, of the kind enjoyed by 60 percent of the residents of Vienna, the most liveable city in the world, according to a report by the Economist.

    For second, they just go for extending the Greener cities trend. Third, they just go for rejuvenating centers of cities, which has also been happening for years. Would've been better to devise collaborative projects folks can join into.

  6. Dennis Frank 6
    17 July 2023 at 12:10 pm

    Greens giving the Nat/ACT bear a prod: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/greens-launch-maori-land-policy-hoki-whenua-mai-vows-to-return-stolen-land-revisit-claims-and-redress/IH4JRCB53BFAZD2VAJA2GUH774/

    I'm okay on the principle of their policy: satisfactory resolution of problems created by past maladministration. Natural justice. I'll reserve judgment on their proposed method until I see if others find any flaws.

  7. PsyclingLeft.Always 7
    17 July 2023 at 1:27 pm

    Asked whether this was a political gimmick Brown said: "Not at all

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/493844/national-s-pothole-policy-about-finding-balance-between-safety-and-efficiency-brown

    Yeah…Riiight. Complete with two hands in pockets, pothole plonkers.

    Reality….

    The government was spending $2.8 billion on highway maintenance, saying it was a 65 percent increase on what the previous National government had spent.

    And beside that, NZ's chronic car culture addiction is just exacerbating any existing problem . To say nothing of the fkn heavy truck trailers rooting the roads/highways.

    Should we spend more money on "fixing" something that should be being replaced….by major Public Transport and Rail networks ?

    No.

  8. Phillip ure 8
    17 July 2023 at 2:10 pm

    Question:

    Why are dairy farms allowed right on the edge of the already polluted Manukau harbour..?

    Given all we now know..

    ..how the fuck is this allowed to continue…?

    For cow shit/nitrates to be allowed to just pour into the harbour..?

    • bwaghorn 8.1
      17 July 2023 at 3:43 pm

      How's a city allowed to keep expanding on already polluted harbours that are regularly closed to human food gathering and recreation due to human sewage over flows??

  9. Sanctuary 9
    17 July 2023 at 2:50 pm

    The Green party appears to have a death wish. The same sort of activist fanaticism that led to anti-smacking debacle that saw the Left in opposition for 9 years appears to be back with the insane suggestion that private property be subject to Maori land claims. Talk about lunatics with a death wish!

    Apart from anything else, who is this policy meant to appeal to? It is the sort of insanity you'd expect from a bunch of unwashed anti-capitalist student anarchists living in squat, not a party with mainstream aspirations.

    • arkie 9.1
      17 July 2023 at 3:13 pm

      Or, alternatively:

      The Green Party has unveiled its plan to return land wrongly taken from Māori.

      If part of the next government, the Greens would amend the Public Works Act to prevent Māori land being taken in future.

      It would repeal the 2008 deadline to lodge new Treaty claims and reinstate the ability for the Waitangi Tribunal to make recommendations on privately-owned land, as it comes on the property market.

      The Greens also want to establish a Royal Commission to investigate land taken through breaches of the Treaty.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/493846/greens-announce-policy-to-repeal-2008-deadline-to-lodge-treaty-claims

      I think it should be mainstream to attempt to resolve the illegal breaches of our nation's founding document by the state. Private property would only be included as it was sold by current owners. Try and read before you react.

      • Sanctuary 9.1.1
        17 July 2023 at 3:26 pm

        Right so your the sort of person who thinks telling every person in NZ who owns their own home or farm or factory, or has a mortgage pursuant to that end, that what they've purchased in good faith can now be subject to a Maori land claim is a vote winner?

        It us ridiculous policy no one asked for and seems to be mainly designed as a masochistic desire to upset 98% of the electorate.

        The Greens keep whining that they are a serious party. On the basis of this policy I say bullshit to that.

        [“… that what they've purchased in good faith can now be subject to a Maori land claim is a vote winner?”

        You appear to be implying that land would be taken off non-Māori and given to Māori. This is not true, it’s been pointed out to you that it’s not true, and you’ve repeated it. Even if you didn’t mean that, both your comments can easily be construed by people reading to mean that.

        If I see you run this line again, I will consider you to be knowingly lying and I will ban you until well after the election. Only warning.

        https://www.greens.org.nz/hoki_whenua_mai_announcement

        • weka]

    • foreign waka 9.2
      17 July 2023 at 3:24 pm

      It is sad to see that the green party has no real interest in Green issues that really matter. Like a marine sanctuary or an end to bottom trawling. Even the damage of the land and infrastructure through iwi owed forest companies is not mentioned and the taxpayer has to foot the bill. I am interested how all the claims are set vis a vis the billions already paid in reparation and the tax exemption of iwis.

      Lets not forget, it is not the "Crown" who pays but the taxpayer.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/5130429/Super-rich-tribes-pay-no-tax#:~:text=A%20law%20change%20by%20the,those%20businesses%20are%20getting%20big.

      As an immigrant, settling here some 37 years ago, this discussion is provoking the feeling that I to have to uproot again. It was psychologically some work to feel "at home" but it seems I need to be prepared to move as the situation here is getting more and more unsettling.

      In that vain, I think all immigrants and people thinking about coming back should be told in an unambiguous way what they will have to expect and expectations about their contribution.

      • arkie 9.2.1
        17 July 2023 at 3:29 pm

        Look at the policies and you will find what you claim is not there:

        • Establish a well-resourced and politically independent Ocean Commission to develop and establish Te Tiriti-based ocean governance of our entire marine area, including the Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) and to advise Government on legislative, policy and institutional reform. (1.1)
        • Reform fisheries and marine protection legislation and establish a national, comprehensive, and coherent system of no-take, marine protected areas. (2.1)
        • Resource mātauranga Māori organisations and promote the use of marine cultural health indices to empower community action and well-being to inform policy, management, and operations. (2.4)
        • Halt any further degradation of marine and estuarine habitats through the extraction of natural resources, destructive fishing practices or inappropriate construction of our built environments. (4.1)
        • Phase out bottom trawling, prioritising seamounts and areas with high levels of sequestered carbon and biodiversity for protection. (5.1)
        • Enable kaitiakitanga, including upholding and underpinning Māori fisheries rights in the transition of the QMS to an ecosystem-based management. (5.4)

        https://www.greens.org.nz/marine_policy

        • Move away from exploiting the environment for the economy, and towards a circular economy. (1.2)
        • Protect and restore populations of native species to ensure healthy ecosystems; access to these species for the purposes of tikanga Māori, and build resilience to a changing climate. (2.2)
        • Honour Te Tiriti o Waitangi by resourcing tangata whenua to exercise tino rangatiratanga as kaitiaki, including through the return of land. (5.1)
        • Resource youth-led research on environmental issues, and protect and restore the environment for future generations. (5.6)
        • Implement and strengthen measures to rapidly reduce our own greenhouse gas emissions. (6.6)

        https://www.greens.org.nz/environmental_protection_policy

        • Uphold and resource the kaitiaki role of tangata whenua, and work with them to protect taonga species and significant places, including through the return of whenua. (1.1)
        • Establish a complete linked network of ecologically representative areas – terrestrial, marine and aquatic – under protective management. (3.2)
        • Work with local government and communities to ensure a minimum 5% of the land area of all ecological districts in Aotearoa New Zealand is in native vegetation or set aside for the restoration of nature. (3.3)
        • Establish legal protection for indigenous plants and ensure legal protections for indigenous wildlife are robust enough for all threatened species. (3.8)
        • Implement strategies for climate-change adaptation of native ecosystems and species (…). (4.1)
        • Manage human activity outside of public conservation land in a way that supports the wellbeing of natural ecosystems, indigenous species and habitats (…). (5.1)

        https://www.greens.org.nz/conservation_policy

        etc etc

      • Phillip ure 9.2.2
        17 July 2023 at 4:27 pm

        What alarmist b.s. there f.w..

        Are you a'fearing a brown people uprising..?

        What exactly is 'unsettling' you..?

        You aren't just pearl-clutching for the sake of it..?

        Do tell..!

        • Foreign waka 9.2.2.1
          17 July 2023 at 7:20 pm

          Bit of a racist remark there? You will be surprised to know that I have been told twice that pakeha ate only "allowed" to be here to pay for the upkeep of Maori. Seems to be confirmed.

          • Phillip ure 9.2.2.1.1
            17 July 2023 at 7:31 pm

            Been told twice…?..eh..?

            By two different racist whites..?

            Or was it the same one saying it twice..?

            And what exactly 'seems to be confirmed'..?

            And how exactly..?

            • Foreign waka 9.2.2.1.1.1
              17 July 2023 at 7:43 pm

              By Maori on a hui no less. But never mind, people like you have made up their mind that anybody else is just out to exploit. Thats ok. I will make my decision and thats that.

  10. Phillip ure 10
    17 July 2023 at 4:22 pm

    This idea of mini-ministries (c f. fix potholes) could have merit..

    How about a ministry to fix scumbag slum landlords..?

    For starters..?

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