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Open Mike 17/10/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 17th, 2017 - 123 comments
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123 comments on “Open Mike 17/10/2017”

  1. ScottGN 1

    Gee that born-to-rule triumphalism we saw from National and their mates on election night seems a long, long time ago now…

  2. Ed 2

    With a dearth of political news over the past 3 weeks, what an opportunity for our wonderful media to look at some of the issues facing our country in depth; some real investigative journalism looking at water quality, poverty, mental health, housing, the gas pipe leak…….. there’s quite a list of subjects calling out for enquiry from the 4th estate.

    But no…..

    Reality TV is more important

    And foreign celebrities

    We need a better media.

    • James 2.1

      Or better consumers. After all they write what people read.

      • tc 2.1.1

        No they write what they’re told to, readership isn’t a factor.

        Surely you’ve got more nuanced memes than that lazy ill fitting one James ?

      • No they don’t:

        Traditional media continue to deliver the biggest audiences in New Zealand, however these audiences have declined since 2014 and nearly all online media and especially SVOD services have grown significantly.

        The consumers are fine – it’s the people in there ivory towers (CEOs, PMs, and other hierarchical types) complaining about the consumers not liking what they’ve been told to like.

        • tc

          Also there’s autobots writing and publishing pieces now. Bezos has used his ownership of washington post to roll out the tech behind it.

          Feed it some numbers, it’s normally hooked into a data stream, throw in some key phrases to use in a meta structure and shazam ! Auto ‘journalism’ as you get full control over theme and structure without pesky salaries.

          The kind of dross our media has churned out since election day could’ve come from a creative writing class it’s so lacking in facts and keeps circling the same themes.

      • Stuart Munro 2.1.3

        Friend of mine did a PhD on this. Journalism quality is crucial to readership – she was able to lift circulation in two different papers by over 70% by pursuing quality indicators like freshness, newsworthiness, depth and so forth.

        Your logic is what nearly killed TV3.

      • rhinocrates 2.1.4

        Nope, newspapers make most of their money from advertisers, so they write what the advertisers want. They’re their market.

        • Robert Guyton

          Hi rhinocrates – this is completely off topic but… I know your handle is to be read, “rye – nok – rat- ees”, and is a play on “Hippocrates” but I can’t help but mouthing, “rhino – crates” every time I see it; you know, a rhino in a crate, being moved from one African location to another. Fyi 🙂

          • weka

            it’s the brilliance of the name 🙂

          • Macro

            Actually I got to touch a Rhino earlier this year. Mind you there were 6″ steel bars between me and him! Impressive animals.

            • Robert Guyton

              We’re annihilating them though, right? Hippos are next.

              • Macro

                This one was quite safe in the Auckland zoo. I got to feed a giraffe and see her baby born on xmas day at the same time.
                Yes we are in the midst of the 6th great extinction…
                Zoos are now seen more as sanctuaries rather than exhibition places – at least that is how the keepers view their task.

              • weka

                I think we’re annihilating everything. Apparently we will escape into space when we need to.

                • Stuart Munro

                  “Technology will fix it.”

                  • Ed

                    That’s bm’s response to climate change…..

                    • Stuart Munro

                      Yup – that’s who I was thinking of.

                      But I find myself liking this movie more and more – at some level it’s kindof faithful to Mœbius’s vision of the future.

                      Hollywood should have a crack at one of Druillet’s maybe…

      • Foreign waka 2.1.5

        James, “they” would then be story tellers but by no means reporters. Mind you, looking at the caliber on offer, lets leave it at story tellers.

    • Sparky 2.2

      What we need is real journalism but that’s a rare thing in NZ these days…..

      • greywarshark 2.2.1

        We try to keep them on their toes though.
        Buyers in Auckland with agreements as to their ability to buy to a certain price are being turned down when they apply often because the bank considers the price too high, or that the income is too low to service it. Unless you get a fully analysed agreement taking into account your debts and reliable wage, and some of the middle class precariat are contractors, part time workers with variable salaries, then it might be thumbs down. Don’t count your chickens until they are hatched, or you may end up living in the henhouse and be glad of it! Our
        brighter future may come, but not before we have a storm.

        Somebody that’s got a $120,000 deposit gets pre-approved for a $500,000 mortage; they go out and find a property to buy around the $600,000 mark; they go back to their lender, who’s pre-approved them, and then they get turned down.
        “They get told, ‘well, actually we don’t value it to where you do. We think that we’ll loan you $480,000’.”

        Cleangreen’s 15/10 piece on downward trend of the world economy fits with this.
        link /open-mike-15102017/#comment-1400592

  3. Ed 3

    ‘It can no longer continue’: mental health service cuts beds over staff woes.’

    ‘The only acute mental health unit on Auckland’s North Shore has been forced to close five beds because it can’t find staff.
    For months, staff at He Puna Waiora have worked double shifts of 16 hours or longer, often dealing with violent and aggressive patients.
    A Public Service Association spokesperson said the shortage of nurses had forced the ward to reduce its bed numbers for seven weeks.
    The shortage of nurses had forced the ward to reduce its beds for seven weeks, the PSA said. It’s understood four nurses left their jobs last week.
    Ms Polaczuk said the staff shortages had placed pressure on staff to work double shifts.
    “A week recently … there were 35 double shifts worked. There would almost be no days where there is not somebody on shift who has a double.
    “It’s been going on for some months and obviously it’s at the point now where it can no longer continue,” she said.
    The union said the pressure on staff had increased the risk of violent and aggressive behaviour by patients.


    This is the sort of issue that James and other right wing ‘contributors’ to this site do not care about.
    Instead they care abut the betting odds for a National government.
    How can someone not care about this?

    • garibaldi 3.1

      Ed , as BM and James will tell you,it’s all about personal choices (sarc).

      • James 3.1.1

        It is.

        If they don’t offer enough money for a job – people won’t work there. (Unless there is nothing better around).

        So people are choosing to work elsewhere.

        • marty mars

          Nice attitude iceman – you don’t care about others unless you’re moaning that they haven’t got your latte right. Sad. Fake carer about people especially mental health workers and patients is outed – nice slow clap for James.

        • Draco T Bastard

          So, perhaps health funding should have been raised so that wages for nurses could go up so that people would be encouraged to become nurses rather than cutting them, as National did, so as to give tax cuts to the rich?

        • DoublePlusGood

          So what you are saying is the government has failed to provide sufficient resources to have the service function properly.
          Thank you for admitting that National has failed.

        • cleangreen

          James it’s all about brainwashing by the Corporatge controlled media or are you just so blind you can’t see or are you representing Corporate media?

    • joe90 3.2

      How can someone not care about this?

      Because in the majority’s just-world, the betting odds for a National government are a damn sight more important than the needs of those enduring an acute mental health crisis.


      This is not a new thing.

      The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people.

      British colonial administrator Charles Trevelyan, on the victims of The Great Hunger.

    • cleangreen 3.3

      100000% Ed, fully agree.

      National and their media dont want to raise throrny issues that would show them up as being inept and ineffectual.

      “Money talks while truth walks” – is best given as the motto that belongs to the National Party.

    • James 3.4

      They could just pay the staff more. Then they would get staff. Easy really.

      • KJT 3.4.1

        Then. They would have to raise taxes!

        • Ad

          There’s plenty of money in the public sector both now and in the forecasts.

          This is all on Coleman’s head.

      • Psych nurse 3.4.2

        It’s not the money, it’s all about the work stress, lack of opportunity to work with your patients, the inability to take leave or days off, all leading to burnout and loss of skilled educated people to the health professions. On a double shift I could bring home a thousand dollars a day but its not worth it. Excess overtime is a killer.

        • Macro

          My son-in-law is on a double shift today – 14 hours straight. How anyone can be expected to make good decisions at end of that, I fail to see.

          • RedLogix

            Been there in the past year. 14 hr plus days, 21 days on end without a break. Then 7 days off and repeat 6 times over a period of 7 months. In an environment with no sunlight for most of the period.

            Short answer is it breaks people. It damages memory, concentration, metabolism and breaks down their immune system. The ability to cope with distractions and aggravations diminishes, they make mistakes for which they get blamed which only adds another layer of stress.

            Looking back I’m kind of amazed at how the whole team survived it without anyone falling completely apart on the project, but fortunately it has come to a definitive end.

            I’m still recovering mentally. As Pysch Nurse puts it … just not really worth it. And the liability totally sits with the employers who manipulate people into doing this kind of shit.

            A few high profile prosecutions are really needed.

            • Macro

              Yep – by offering days off in lieu and same money for apparently less work employers avoid penal rates and a host of other worker conditions.

        • Foreign waka

          To many bureaucrats sitting in front of a PC all day over analyzing whatever with those trusty spreadsheets and ending up completely depraved of humanity.

      • Psycho Milt 3.4.3

        They could just pay the staff more.

        I wonder who the “they” in that statement is intended to represent? Because you’re a partisan supporter of the “they” who could pay them more, but won’t, and who pretend “won’t” is a virtue. You might as well write “Then let them eat cake.”

    • James 3.5

      By the way Ed – did you place a bet ?

      You could do a lot of good with those profits – or don’t you care ?

  4. eco maori 4

    Many thanks to the staff at Rotorua Hospital for the care they gave my family.
    I take my hat off to you ladys whom raise our children as I would rather work the hardest job I have worked for free than care for sick children its a hard task.
    Many thanks to the rest home in Napier whom are caring for my mother.
    In my view our high suicide rate is directly linked to broken family’s .
    As one needs love and guidance from mothers fathers and grandparents in our world as this love helps one lift there wairua and one can learn a lot from our experienced elderly people. So we need to make changes to our society that encourage the the family to stay together. ie reward 2 parent family’s as this financial reward will help prevent many problems we have with our youth and we will gain substantially from this minor adjustment to Winz . We will avoid having to many people end up in the ambulance at the bottom of the hill E,C,T. Many thanks to all the people who support me

  5. miravox 5

    Did Trump say he’s going to make other countries pay more for medicines so the U.S pays less? (CNN post cabinet meeting) I think he did. That’s not something to ignore – especially in terms of avoiding the non-existent Trans-Pacific partnership.

    • joe90 5.1

      tRump blames drug companies for the cost of prescription drugs….. but it’s the rest of the world’s fault.


      As far as — and I didn’t speak to Mitch about this today, but a priority of mine, and you know that this is coming up, will be the cost of prescription drugs. We’re going to get the costs way down, way down — and those drug companies. So you have the insurance companies on the one case (ph). In the other case, actually with regard to both you have the drug companies.

      They contribute massive amounts of money to political people. I don’t know, Mitch, maybe even to you. But I have to tell you, they contribute massive amounts of money.

      Me? I’m not interested in their money. I don’t need their money.

      I will tell you, you have prescription drugs — you go to England, you go to various places, Canada, you go to many, many countries, and the same exact pill from the same company, the same box, same everything is a tiny fraction of what it costs in the United States. We are going to get drug prices — prescription drug prices way down, because the world is taking advantage of us. The world is taking advantage of us when that happens, so that’s going to be very important.


      • miravox 5.1.1

        Ahh – thanks joe90.

        Yes, that was it… he was free-wheeling a lot in that briefing. So he’s going to threaten the UK first. May will be heart-broken.

        Easier to bully other countries than to look at why the US can’t negotiate better pharma pricing in the US, I guess.

  6. cleangreen 6

    They murdered the Panama papers writer today so we have a bad world full of crooks now, so time for a revolution is moving closer with this murder of free press.

    • AB 6.2

      So what do we now make of John Key’s reluctance to cast light on secret foreign trusts in NZ, the existence of which was disclosed in the Panama Papers?
      Does this make him a grubby enabler of the sorts of criminals who would conspire to murder a journalist?
      Not directly responsible in any way of course, just a low-level enabler of a rotten system.

      • Carolyn_Nth 6.3.1

        On Nine-to-Noon:

        There’s shock and anger in Malta as news spreads about the death in a car bomb of the Maltese journalist and blogger who led the investigation into the Panama Papers scandal. Daphne Caruana Galizia died overnight when a powerful explosive device blew her car into pieces and threw the debris into a nearby field. She spoke to Nine to Noon last April. Her most recent revelations pointed the finger at Malta’s prime minister, Joseph Muscat, and two of his closest aides, connecting offshore companies linked to the three men with the sale of Maltese passports and payments from the government of Azerbaijan. David Thake is a former Nationalist party general election candidate and radio presenter in Malta, who knew Daphne Caruana Galizia well.

        • reason


          John Keys legacy is like an abscess …. poisons the blood.

          “Income inequality is one of the defining issues of our time,” the statement begins, asking why its “sudden acceleration” has many people “helpless to stop its steady growth.”

          “The Panama Papers provide a compelling answer to these questions: massive, pervasive corruption,”…. : John Doe


          “Confronted with the blatant nature of the grubby pillaging of 1MDB, however, and the huge sums flushed through property, businesses and the art market, countries like the United States, Switzerland and Singapore have taken action and are punishing financial facilitators in their regions.

          Yet, down south, Australia and New Zealand are still doing their best to pretend none of this was to do with them.” …..

          And Lignite Bill has no problems with facilitating theft from Mexican or Maltese children …

          Hon BILL ENGLISH: …… “In this case, the concerns about tax avoidance are concerns held by the Mexican Government and the Maltese Government, not by the New Zealand Government. There is no suggestion that these trusts are used to erode New Zealand’s tax base” …

          Helping steal from poor kids …..English and Key have the class of dog shit.

    • Shocking – unbelievable really that they could murder this hero. RIP and I hope her family are well supported.

  7. Well now Peter Dunny’s getting in on the act I see.

    Pretty rich coming from that guy about anything to do with NZ First is doomed to failure… he left because he knew Peters had his number ,… and has been a one man band like ACTS leaders have for years as well…

    Sour Grapes all around , … that’s what this is.

    • cleangreen 7.1

      Peter Dunne was a dispicable character;

      While he was a well groomed man he was in fact just another Corporate puppet .

      Nothing else was there to see in him as just another National “hollow man” that Nicky Hagar will write about in his next book.

      • tc 7.1.1

        Dunne summed himself up best with the ‘willing buyer, willing seller’ line.

        Confirmed what everybody already knew about Dunnster, a whore with a pricetag who is not too bothered about morality.

        Perfect national coalition partner really.

  8. eco maori 8

    This is my interpretation of the 2 choices that New Zealand First has to make for our future and how I view that future under the 2 different choices .
    Nzf Lab Grn We have many sports stars of Maori descent and every Maori in our world is proud to be Maori. Because we change our system to divert most of our young from the clutches of the judicial system . In my view we are locking up our sports stars whom could be making millions around our world. We are all talking about movies made about our past and how proud everyone in NZ is about our Maori culture these movies are all based on fact and show how advanced Maori were in the 1800 and we have movies about Apirana Ngata as it is the media and movies that makeup our reality .That movie that say that we could control our weather is a farce as we will only be able to predict our weather more accurately in the future not control it on a large scale.
    Year 10 we have 25 % electric cars on our roads our 50 % less trucks we have plans for high speed rail that links our major city’s. Our oil use has been cut by a third we have had many surpluses on our trade with the rest of the world as everyone around the world no that our clean and green image in true and we are looking after everything in our country and everyone around our world is making the changes to there systems to copy our successful systems.
    Our hospital waiting list is 7 days long as we have made change that have cut management cost and stream lined the systems back to a models like our hosptial boards we have saved millions everyone is treated before they develop more complicated health issues .We have next to no homeless people as we have come up with idea’s to give them employment and housing all our bad stats have droped down the OECD charts
    All our sports stadiums are full as everyone has some spare money in a more equal society our racing industry’s and all our other regional industry’s are thriving and because of this we don’t have to much exposure to Dairy as all our exports are trading well and not just Dairy .Our electricity is 100 % renewable we have banned plastic in everything but the essentials products 1/3 of our houses have solar power
    as the electricity company’s pay a fair price for net metering of power. Everyone is talking about the right choices that our governments. All the wealthy people from around our world flock to our shores but they can only lease our land and this stops us from being tenants in our own country there are many positive scenarios in this partnership and in every partnership everyone has to give and take to get along.
    In 40 years we will be view Winston Peters in the same light as Apirana Ngata.

    Nzf nat they have poured more money into our health system and because its not cutting our waiting list there are plans to privatize parts of our health systems look at the USA do we want to go there. Our exports are still dominated by dairy the old saying to many eggs in one basket is not logically Ideal we have huge and expensive highways that are not coping with the traffic all our bad stats on the OECD charts are getting worse but no one is talking about it because national have total control of our media/reality our major city’s are bursting at the seams and not even the middle class people can afford to buy a house as all the rich and famous have flocked to our shores and pushed up the price of everything We can look around our world now and see this effect now we have spent millions trying to clean up our enviroment but national are just keeping the image that everything is fine a new oil well has bursted and ruined our hoki fisheries our jails are costing more and half of them are privatized and no one is talking about the bad atrocities in private prisons.
    Even some middle class could be classed as home less in our big city’s they have banned homeless people from all the tourist destinations there has been a lot of bad press about NZF as natianal set them up ie sex scandal money scandal and because natianal don’t want a great Maori leader to shine they minuplate the media to portray Winston as a maverick that just used his power to line his own pockets.
    Look at the Maori party they had good intentions with there smoke price hike but national new that this move would upset and cost the Maori party there support as Maori have the highest percentage of smokes It would have been better to ban smoking but this would not go down with the tobacco companys .
    Another underarm to the Maori party was the whano ora policy .The Maori party had good intentions with this policy but all national did was take from other health budgets and transfer the money to whano ora and everyone was moaning about the the other needed health services that were missing out on funding and this was going to Maori a lot of my elderly clients were talking about this fact.
    national will show you a to good to be true deal up front but as soon as they get the chance they will throw you under the bus as they don’t like to share anything and especially power and if we get more immigrants the will vote national and with tec advancing so fast that could swing voters 5 % more to national. The left will never have a another chance to get into power this is happening all around our world Kia Kaha

  9. joe90 9

    Shit’s getting serious.


    A Spanish judge has ordered two leaders of Catalonia’s pro-independence movement jailed while they are being investigated on possible charges of sedition.

    The judge jailed Jordi Sanchez of the Catalan National Assembly and Jordi Cuixart of the Omnium Cultural group after questioning them and two senior law enforcement officials on Monday.


  10. cleangreen 10

    Thoughtful analogy Eco maori,

    I like the rail bit, but you will need to break up the high powered Trucking lobby as they have taken over the National Government and intend to kill rail dead as rail poses a threatn to their road freight transport policy going forward.

    Top ex national ministers are hired to run the trucking lobby groups and use ‘greenwashing’ to convince politicians that truck freight is so very environemntally responsible, but it is full of lies and deception.

    Note rail do not use tyres;

    The trucks run up to 32 tyres each truck, that cause the worst tyre pollution in our times, now as tyre dust is entering our streams,rivers, lakes, aqifers and into our drinking water as we speak, and tyre pollution causes cancer and nervous system damage and reproductive damage.

    look up 1,3, butadiene which is one of the main components in tyres today.


    Recommend on FacebookTweetShare May 1994
    Immediately Dangerous to Life or Health Concentrations (IDLH)
    CAS number: 106-99-0

    NIOSH REL: Exposure level; None established; NIOSH considers 1,3-butadiene to be a potential occupational carcinogen as defined by the OSHA carcinogen policy [29 CFR 1990].

    Thanks for your excellent post.

    • Andre 10.1

      You’re worried about the 1,3-Butadiene, huh? Here’s how your data sheet describes it: “Description of Substance: Colorless gas with a mild aromatic or gasoline-like odor.”

      A gas isn’t much use for making a tyre. So the butadiene is a precursor component that gets polymerised into the final solid rubber. The properties and hazard profile of a polymer are very different to the properties of the monomers that go into it.

      edit: If you really feel like having a freakout about hazardous chemicals, look up the hazards of styrene, than ponder how much food spends time in contact with polystyrene.

      • cleangreen 10.1.1

        Wrong Andre,

        The 1,3, butadiene is also an “inert” component traced in the final composition as you can verify it when you go to NZTA site for tyre materials review of the final composition of the tyre material, or any other data study of components found therin.

        Many studies have been done of tyre repairers and workshops where tyre dust is prevelent so your point is very simplistic and flawed.

        Tyre dust is very hazardous read this;


        “Due to their volatility, carcinogens such as N-nitrosamines, which cause cancer,
        are able to segregate from tyre rubber into the atmosphere as dust and fine aerosol during tyre use.
        The research of chemical content of tyre dust and fine aerosol from different tyres (manufactured by domestic and foreign manufacturers), performed in the Russian Federation in 1999-2000 [2], allowed to determine that each kilogram of tyre dust and fine aerosol may contain different value of volatile N-nitrosamines, which may reach up to 70μg.
        Thus, during vehicle operation with wear of tyres considerable values of not only tyre dust, but also the carcinogenic substances causing various oncology diseases are allocated in environment.”

        For example, how do you consider the “butadiene/styrene” as being cited as the primary components in tyre material when the tyre is placed in a laboratory analysis under GCMS as Spectrometry mass testing prodedure?

        Gas chromatography–mass spectrometry (GC-MS) is an analytical method that combines the features of gas-chromatography and mass spectrometry to identify different substances within a test sample.

        Applications of GC-MS include drug detection, fire investigation, environmental analysis, explosives investigation, and identification of unknown samples, including that of material samples obtained from planet Mars during probe missions as early as the 1970s. GC-MS can also be used in airport security to detect substances in luggage or on human beings. Additionally, it can identify trace elements in materials that were previously thought to have disintegrated beyond identification. Like liquid chromatography–mass spectrometry, it allows analysis and detection even of tiny amounts of a substance.

        Please be careful not to send the message falsely that tyre dust is not harmful as you appear to suggest as it is widely known now in Europe as a major human hazard and cancer causing air and water pollutant.

        WHO even recognises this fact.

        • Andre

          If you want to talk about the hazards of tyre dust, then by all means give us information about tyre dust. Hazard information about a constituent precursor is relevant to workers compounding the rubber, but not relevant to the hazard from the wear debris of the final product.

          Similarly the volatiles given off by tyres, especially new ones, are relevant to workers in the tyre industry who are exposed to them in high concentrations during their workday through working in enclosed spaces where they are stored. They are much less relevant to the general public who spend 15 minutes in a tyre shop every four years or so, and the rest of the time their vehicle is outdoors where the volatiles quickly disperse.

          • cleangreen

            I am astouded that you fail to see the affects of tyre particulates as being importent here as I told you for the last time the inert coumpouds including styrene and 1,3, butadiene are traced inside the final polymer compounds of the tyre not the monomer (precursor) and and I did not say a ‘new tyre’ which you seem to be centering your comments on as irrelevent to my comments..

            I have begun my post discssing the truck tyre has become a largest polutant in “road runoff” from our roads now going into our waterways and you failed sadly had no concerns about this as to see the connection.

            So I cannot get through to you about this new (so far “out of sight”) “public health” issue of tyre dust pollution which is now being ignored by some agencies and some industries (perhaps those who produce those tyres or trucking interests) that I have suggested already.

            It is puzzling why you do not show any health concerns about tyre dust?

            I quote again for the last time;


            “Automobile tyres as a source of deterioration products till now remain out of sight of the experts engaged in technical rationing. For a long time was considered, that tyre protector deterioration product particle sizes are large enough and do not pose a health hazard. However, research of the American doctors [1], who noticed a higher sensibility to allergic and oncology diseases of inhabitants of the houses located near to motorways in cities, had allowed to assume, that at natural wear of automobile tyres significant amount of aerosol is emitted to the atmosphere. After thorough research of the air at highway with moderate traffic, the researchers found between 3,800 and 6,900 tyre particles per cubic meter of air while more the 58% of them are under 10 microns in size and therefore are able to penetrate into human lungs causing bronchial asthma, allergic reactions, as a result of skin and mucosa contact – rhinitis, conjunctivitis and urticaria. Such tyre particles almost cannot be excreted from the body. According to the research carried out in Moscow [2] the core pollutant of the city air (up to 60% of hazardous matter) is the rubber of automobile tyre used up in a small dust. The performed analysis of various tyres in operation, had allowed to define weights of a worn out parts of tyres of different sizes, which are resulted in the Tables”

            NZTA documents show one truck tyre sheds 0.2mgs per km and a car 0.07mgs every day so 32 tyres are emitting a considerable amount of these dust compounds.

            The studies show on any road carrying an average of 20 000 vehicles every day sheds 9kilos per km along that road.

            It washes off the road in rain and enters our aqifers and waterways so think when you drink that water.

            So we know this has a dramatic effect truck freight traffic has on our environmental health over rail what uses no tyres at all.

            • Andre

              Congratulations. You’ve finally isolated the relevant hazard of the dust to show the rest of us.

              Now do you want to have a go at putting some context around how that hazard compares to other everyday hazards, such as the volatiles you breathe in when you fill your tank? Or the particulates from diesel and petrol exhaust? Interestingly, the latest generations of direct injection petrol engines may be worse than diesels…

              • cleangreen

                Andre did I say tyre dust was the only toxic exposure? = answer = no.

                And you failed mostly to read the posts as your responses were wildly off the focus of my subject. Rail vs road freight.

                Lastly – as I have asked you several times before in other words, ‘what is your interest in the subject of Trucking – rail which was my subject here in case you forgot?

                What is your interest in these exposures to toxins or are you representing some ‘bussiness interests like road freight industry or representing a chemical industry or associated client?

                Guess you are reluctant to respond are you?

                • Andre

                  My interest is in hazard assessment and mitigation. Most of the places I’ve worked deal with a variety of hazardous substances, and understanding and managing the risks of those substances usually ends up on my plate.

                  Saying something is hazardous and treating that as an argument against that activity is meaningless, I can’t think of anything I do or have contact with that doesn’t have some kind of hazard. It’s the relative size of the hazard compared to the alternatives that matters.

                  So when you start your argument with an assertion about tyre dust, then present information about a substance totally unrelated to the hazard of tyre dust, well, it’s a crap argument.

                  As it happens, I have a very poor opinion of the trucking industry and agree that improving rail would bring huge benefits to NZ. But weird scaremongering about tyre dust that doesn’t even correctly identify the hazard, let alone put it context, is more likely to set the cause back than help it.

                  • cleangreen


                    You are entitled to your opinions, unfounded as they are, and i can see that you are of the opinion that tyre dust is harmless which is sadly very misguided;

                    You have no evidence to support or prove that tyre dust is harmless other than just simple words claiming such.

                    I have a post grad in Occupatioal Health & Safety at a NZ University and spent seven years preceeding this in Florida and Toronto studying Chemical toxicology, so you have just insulted my intellegence.

                    I was involved in a six month workplace chemical poisoning incident in an unventillated workplace which damaged/disabled the health of several wokers and myself, before this so I know something about hazardous chemicals.

                    You are relying on academic rubbish only as if it was an exact science we should never had been damaged nor should many other workers have been in the past.

                    So while unlike you I do have personal expierience on the toxic effects of chemicals without being to specific at this time.

                    If you were personally chemically poisoned as I was you would not be so ‘cavalier’ as you are now.

                    So I end this exchange now, and will carry on making ‘tyre dust road runnoff pollution’ one of my continued studies just as the rest of the world is becomming ‘enlighted’ even if some in NZ is not prepared to be engaged in presently.

                    • Andre

                      Have a careful read through my comments. At no point did I assert tyre dust is harmless.

                      I asked you to correctly identify what the hazard is, instead of scaremongering with data about irrelevant substances. I also asked you to provide some context about how great the hazard of tyre dust is compared to other everyday hazards.

                      Surely that shouldn’t be difficult for someone as learned and qualified as yourself.

              • weka

                Now do you want to have a go at putting some context around how that hazard compares to other everyday hazards, such as the volatiles you breathe in when you fill your tank? Or the particulates from diesel and petrol exhaust? Interestingly, the latest generations of direct injection petrol engines may be worse than diesels…

                I’d be more interested in studies on cumulative effect. Can you point to any?

                • cleangreen

                  O/K Andre,

                  Since I have been chemically poisoned my role in life is to save every other soul from suffering my demise, so I will attempt to give you some idea of how serious the issue of Truck emissions as ‘dust sources from tyres and brake dust’, using the latest OECD data and cost as relative to other emissions of other hazardous chemicals/compounds.

                  My Environmental Monitoring Company chooses now to target 2.5 micrograms airborne sized particles from transport sources such as truck routes/roads through urban locations where they can affect the lives of many than a rural are would.

                  Particulates that are of a lower weighted form such as 2.5 micrograms is more dangerous than is the more common 10 micrograms sized particles as they travel lower down into our lungs causing more agressive forms of cancer.

                  It shows the actual cost of human damages from this form of air pollution.
                  Good reading regards.

                  OECD report The cost of air pollution. – transport http://www.oecd.org/env/the-cost-of-air-pollution-9789264210448-en.htm
                  Air pollution: Tyre and brake fatigue compound an exhausting problem
                  8 September 2016
                  tags: air pollution, road transport, rubber
                  by Guest author
                  Danger ahead
                  Shayne MacLachlan, OECD Environment Directorate
                  Anyone else feeling exhausted by all this drum humming about air pollution? Indeed it appears the fumes won’t be dissipating any time soon as we consider the extent to which tyre and brake rubbish exacerbate the problem. The European Commission says exhaust and non-exhaust sources may contribute almost equally to total traffic-related PM10 emissions. A few months ago, I was proposing (on this very Insights blog) that electric cars are essential in fighting filthy air pollution in urban areas because humans are unwilling to relinquish the comfort of their vehicles. Since then, I find myself mulling hard after this “alarmingly obvious” realisation that electric cars use tyres and brakes too! Even if they emit less of the harmful fine particles than conventional vehicles, please do feel free to file that blog in the “seemed like a good idea at the time” folder. And to turn insult to injury, I see that my own colleagues at the OECD have just published new data on PM2.5 emissions which did little to ease my blushes.
                  Fine particles vs coarse particles
                  A lot of non-exhaust pollution from tyres and brakes winds up in rivers, streams and lakes. They produce particulate matter (PM10 and PM2.5) which is more harmful for humans than gas pollutants like ozone and NO2. Fine particulate matter penetrates deep into your lungs and cardiovascular system. New research has even discovered tiny particles of pollution inside samples of brain tissue. The OECD is amongst a few international organisations proudly leading the fight against ambient air pollution. And rightly so, with 80% of the world population exposed to PM2.5. Outdoor air pollution causes 3.7 million premature deaths a year and 1 in 8 people die from filthy air. OECD Environment Director, Simon Upton recently stated that air pollution is not just an economic issue, but also a moral one. He urges governments to stop fussing over the costs of efforts to limit pollution and start worrying more about the even larger costs they will incur if they continue to allow it to go unchecked.

                  • Andre

                    You mind making it a bit clearer what are your own words and what is quoting from elsewhere? Also, do you mean micron or micrometre where you mention 2.5 microgram and 10 microgram size particles?

                    Since you got me curious, I went looking for more info and found this.


                    So far I’ve only skimmed most of it and just stopped at interesting looking bits. The consensus seems to be most of the tyre dust mass is in particles much larger than 10 microns, and falls to the ground very quickly. Those larger particles are not a major respiratory hazard. I didn’t see anything that suggests to me that tyre dust should be raised in priority compared to exhaust issues, or fireplace smoke or a variety of other pollution problems.

                    However, the reported size and composition distribution of brake dust particles has me somewhat more concerned than I was this morning.

                    • cleangreen

                      I am now to busy for any more, so for any more I suggest you use this study (below) as I use several others in references for our Company when sizing tyre particulates in micrograms when measuring tyre dust collection of busy roads.

                      We have detected tyre dust down to 0.5 micrograms though our gravimetric filters in our air pollution monitors .

                      You are reading everything wrong here, as the road surface, amount of times the particulates are run over with other vehicles when settling of roads and other variables that can reduce particulate size.

                      Journal of Environmental Protection, 2013, 4, 509-515 http://dx.doi.org/10.4236/jep.2013.46059 Published Online June 2013 (http://www.scirp.org/journal/jep)

                      Dust Resulting from Tire Wear and the Risk of Health Hazards


                      Page 514
                      Dust particles, suspended particulate matter, with a diameter of 10 μm or less, are also produced from some types of tire.
                      Page 515
                      Finally, the study discussed the possible effects of tire dust absorbed into the human body. Tire dust particles with a small diameter enter the human body. As particulate substances of 10 μm or smaller reach the alveoli, they may cause a variety of respiratory disorders, such as bronchitis and bronchial asthma.

                  • Andre

                    Do the math on how a 1 microgram particle or 0.5 microgram particle relates in size to a PM10 (10 micrometres maximum diameter). Hint: it’s an order of magnitude larger. So the particles you’re filtering and making a fuss over are much much larger than the PM10 and PM2.5 particles that are of particular concern to lung health.

                • Andre

                  weka, I’d need to google it and I’m fairly sure your google skills are as good or better than mine.

                  The last time I had occasion to look into something close to that question was decades ago. I vaguely recall effects were more or less cumulative for particles that were effectively inert, but the hazards increased rapidly as particle size got smaller (deeper lung penetration) and hazards increased rapidly with increasing exposure if the particles had any kind of biological activity.

                  That report in my reply to cleangreen suggests that a lot of brake dust particles are very small and can be chemically active, hence my concern level rising. But that’s also a problem that will reduce with electric cars that primarily use regenerative braking so the old-school friction brakes will become emergency-only use.

                  • weka

                    Sorry, that wasn’t what I meant (if I understood what you said). I meant that single substance studies are useful, but they don’t tell us about the risk associated with multiple substance and stressor exposures over time. e.g. the tyre dust and the petrol fumes and the new building off gassing and all the sugar in the diet and the stress of being unemployed or overworked and the endogenous oestrogens and nitrates in the water ( 😉 ) and so on.

  11. wekatests 11


  12. mikesh 13

    Steve Maharey, posting on the Pundit website, reports that Peters’ has said that his forthcoming announcement could be ” written on the wall”. Is this a reference to Book of Daniel, where the writing on the wall predicted the fall of the ruling regime?

  13. Ad 14

    I like Corbyn’s work against religious extremism here:


    Well overdue that Facebook and Twitter demonstrated themselves to be subject to advertising regulators and media regulators in Britain.

    • ianmac 15.1

      What a careful chap is Bill. Know as little as possible. Remember very little. Say as few words as possible.
      Good advice for any of us picked up even if with a guilty conscience.
      (Mind you human nature would have caused Bill to ask a fair bit more of his “pupil”.)

      • The decrypter 15.1.1

        Him, and his cronies certainly think ahead of any potential ramifications in their actions. Sly comes to mind.

    • Anne 15.2

      Good grief. How ridiculous. Whats your name…. what’s your occupation… where do you live (no he didn’t ask that but he might as well have)… do you know Glenys
      Dickson… how long have you known her… did you know she was recorded… did you hear the recordings.

      English answers ‘yes”to the second to last question and “no” to the last one. So, he’s trying to kid that he never heard the recordings? And the police officer never asked whether he knew what was on them?

      I smell one big jack-up!

      • joe90 15.2.1

        Whats your name…. what’s your occupation… where do you live (no he didn’t ask that but he might as well have)… do you know Glenys
        Dickson… how long have you known her… did you know she was recorded… did you hear the recordings.

        That’s how the plods do it when they take statements.

  14. savenz 16

    A huge, American-owned oil and gas company is suing the Canadian government for $250 million for protecting the St Lawrence River from fracking exploration. This week, Lone Pine Resources is in court to try to force Canada to pay for Quebec’s decision to protect one of the most important waterways in the country.


    • cleangreen 16.1

      Yep SAVENZ,

      More the reason why we need winston here to stop Multi-national companies from doing this to us in NZ as they will if given half a chance.

  15. JC 17

    Re Weka’s Blue Babies Post last week:

    “Council acting chair Steve Lowndes said he, like many, struggled with the twin targets the council had to meet under planning rules to increase the amount of irrigated land on the Canterbury Plains while at the same time improving water quality.

    Irrigation would not be used to grow grass for cows in the future, he said.


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  • COVID-19 Hospital Preparation Well Advanced
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  • Further measures to support businesses
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  • Funding certainty for sports through COVID-19
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  • Essential workers leave scheme established
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  • Managed departure plan for stranded foreign nationals enables safe, orderly exit
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  • Susan Thomas the new Chief High Court Judge
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  • Essential media COVID-19 guidelines refined
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  • New Zealand defence personnel conclude mission at Taji
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  • State of National Emergency extended
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