Open Mike 18/11/2018

179 comments on “Open Mike 18/11/2018 ”

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1. WeTheBleeple 1

   18 November 2018 at 6:31 am

   In the light of California’s terrible fires, and recent fire outbreaks in our own NZ, I am compiling a list of fire-resistant plants and their attributes.

   The book I’m working on (functional ecology in NZ) will take about one more year to be thorough.

   In the interim Farmers and landowners and planters might want this part of the information. So for what it’s worth (life and property savings) here is a list.

   Some Fire Resistant Plants:

   Five finger, Hangehange, Kotukutuku/Fuschia, Mapou, Flax, Karamu (and other Coprosmas), Kohekohe, Kowhai, Papauma, Karaka, Poroporo, Puka, Horoeke, Kawakawa, Putaputaweta.

   At ground level a good rule of thumb is that if snails readily live in the plants they are likely fireproof. Snails cannot run so they’ve learned to live in fire resistant surrounds. Lillies, sedges…

   For shelter belts I can’t recommend Kowhai enough (as part of a design, not monoculture uggh). These fix nitrogen, feed tuis, attract pollinators, and are very hardy wind tolerant and fire resistant species. Seed is free from December onward, nick it with a knife through the hardcover, soak in water overnight and plant. Grow plants out to large enough to identify (and clear) in field as they are establishing if weed pressure will be present.

   You get the basic picture. Something as simple as planting is not so straightforward. A little knowledge could go a very long way in provisioning folks with food, fuel, shelter etc. Many needs can and will be met with wise planting.

   Stay posted I’ll make functional ecology accessible to all eventually.

   And have a lovely Sunday.
   • A 1.1

     18 November 2018 at 6:34 am

     What a wonderful offering! Thank you for your foresight and knowledge.
   • Antoine 1.2

     18 November 2018 at 6:35 am

     I set a lot of store in good firebreaks

     A.
   • SaveNZ 1.3

     18 November 2018 at 7:30 am

     Thanks, WeTheBleeple
   • Patricia Bremner 1.4

     18 November 2018 at 8:23 am

     Thank you. This is the kind of action we can all take note of. I have written your list down for further study for planting around our place. Cheers.
   • Jum 1.5

     18 November 2018 at 8:44 am

     Wonderful stuff; I have emailed your info to The Gardener in our family. Thank you.
     And thanks to The Standard for allowing a place for posters to write this ‘stuff’.
     Politics is ‘the price of cheese’. Having said that, I’m sure none of us are only interested in talking politics. We have other interests; that’s what makes us more rounded and inevitably more interested in making NZ the best place it can be.
     • greywarshark 1.5.1

       18 November 2018 at 2:43 pm

       To me it is all part of politics. It is we who have got too focussewd on the bribery and conniptions.
   • Pingao 1.6

     18 November 2018 at 8:58 am

     That is a useful list and reminds of a pamphlet that was put out in the early 2000s.

     Since then Tim Curran at Lincoln University has done some work on flammability of plants in New Zealand. The following link is from an RNZ piece about 3 years ago so there is bound to be something more up to date (maybe not in the public arena though).

     https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ourchangingworld/audio/201768850/firing-up-the-plant-barbecue
     • WeTheBleeple 1.6.1

       18 November 2018 at 9:25 am

       Audio doesn’t work very well for me – I get distracted too easily something jogs a thought and next thing I’m looking up books or online searching the audio long forgotten…

       If the work concerns our best stuff to burn (not in an ecological sense, but what burns the hottest)

       Here’s top 10 flammable plants tested in NZ in descending order.

       1. Gorse!
       2. Manna gum
       3. Kumarahou
       4. Rimu
       5. Silver beech
       6. Manuka
       7. Prickly hakea
       8. Titoki
       9. Wheki
       10. Cabbage tree

       Gorse is another nitrogen fixer. Sure pays to know a few of a plants functions when you look at both gorse and kowhai. Both fix nitrogen, one fire resistant, the other the most flammable plant…
       • Robert Guyton 1.6.1.1

         18 November 2018 at 9:34 am

         One self sows prolifically. One has flowers from which delicious wine can be made. One is a threatened species in its native land 🙂
         • ScottGN 1.6.1.1.1

           18 November 2018 at 1:44 pm

           Coconut scented wine!
         • Graeme 1.6.1.1.2

           18 November 2018 at 3:26 pm

           One of my farmer clients tells a story of a Southland farmer on a farm tour of Scotland, being shown around a nursery and seeing trays of little potted gorse seedlings with ludicrous price tags attached. It was all a bit much….
       • Pingao 1.6.1.2

         18 November 2018 at 1:18 pm

         Yeah audio doesn’t do much for me either but there is a synopsis of the piece.

         It looks like your list of the most flammable (and least) is based on Tim Curran’s and Sarah Wyse’s work.

         Anyway thanks for the interesting post … it is a timely reminder with summer ahead. There was new interest after the Port Hills fires amoung people who wouldn’t normally have realised there was such a difference.
         • WeTheBleeple 1.6.1.2.1

           18 November 2018 at 1:54 pm

           Was/is Sarah working with Lincoln on this type of stuff? Cool.

           My sources so far are the forestry service, fire service, and an article on the work at Lincoln which aligned very nicely with other data. 😀

           https://fireandemergency.nz/assets/Documents/Research-and-reports/Report-20-A-Flammability-Guide-for-Some-Common-New-Zealand-Native-Tree-and-Shrub-Species.PDF

           Port Hills was what prompted me to think on all this, California was a much too deadly reminder to get on with it, and to make sure I include fire in the book.
   • Robert Guyton 1.7

     18 November 2018 at 9:21 am

     “At ground level a good rule of thumb is that if snails readily live in the plants they are likely fireproof. ”
     Fire’s not going to get those plants then *whispers but snails might 🙂

     Good to have such research done and made available. Most of those plants will burn, but more reluctantly than, say, Manuka or toetoe, giving you a better chance of surviving a “California” event. Speed of recovery after a fire is also important, if you want your forest back. Have you tried growing kowhai seed early, WTB? The still-green-about-to-turn-yellow seed sprouts readily, without pre-treatment. They grow easily from cuttings too, as do kaka beak and a native broom, Carmichaelia Odorata.
     • WeTheBleeple 1.7.1

       18 November 2018 at 9:37 am

       Yes, fire resistant plants can slow the fire, and resist it spreading unless it is very intense. Once the water content is gone any plant material is tinder. I know you know this stuff, but we have others reading…

       I’ll be interviewing several fire fighters before I print the fire section.

       You legend mentioning Carmichaelia, the heroes of Canterbury – TBA…

       As a ‘rule’ Carmichaelia are not great from cuttings. But are rather varied. All biological rules have rule breakers it seems. But still handy.

       Am just running my first green kowhai seed experiments now – very amateur and small as I had/have no idea it’d work.

       We really need a Kowhai ID key, not even the plant stores can differentiate some of them. Yet they will differ in rates of growth, sizes, water tolerance etc. If you know a good resource I’m just pulling out all I can from Govt databases and then I’ll get a(nother) biogeographer to walk me through them. There is a lady somewhere’s with a grove of all our Sophora species and two introduced… wish I knew where I read about her.
       • I feel love 1.7.1.1

         18 November 2018 at 9:51 am

         That’s very clever stuff, loved the bit about snails, thanks for that.
       • Robert Guyton 1.7.1.2

         18 November 2018 at 10:18 am

         I’m going to try kowhai cuttings in water, changed regularly and with a willow “wand” for good measure. Also a chip of charcoal. I’ve lots of kotukutuku in at present, waiting for the first roots. I wonder about coppicing kotukutuku to improve access to the konini and increase flowering. Also, “bushy” fuchsia might appeal to the home gardener more than a tree. I’m off now to talk to a bloke about extending a wetland fragment he’s got. He wants to propagate jointed rush and Coprosma propinqua, en masse. Good on him.
         • WeTheBleeple 1.7.1.2.1

           18 November 2018 at 1:10 pm

           All Sophora can be struck by cuttings, all are very difficult to strike in this manner. All seeds are relatively easy.

           This is according to Landcare Research – who are awful smart, but also awful gardeners 😉

           Interesting re: coppicing tree fuschia. Love to know if it works.

           Those wetland plants are a good combo. Estuarine site?

           If the site is windy I’d use those plants but add something slightly taller/faster growing for the wetland/land interface, manuka would work in a pinch.
           • Robert Guyton 1.7.1.2.1.1

             18 November 2018 at 3:39 pm

             Yes, it’s estuarine. Manuka would be good, as you suggest, but because he’s not bound to natives only, especially at the establishment stage, I’m talking to him about using Lupinus arboreas to shade the grasses, sequester nitrogen and provide “slash” after 3 or so years, not so much near the estuary edge, but more on the rest of the property, which is higher up and calling for different plants. He can plant into those as they open up and the natives will be sheltered, fed and mulched. I mentioned your discussion on fire-readiness and we agreed that manuka might be a liability, especially as his property is bounded by a highway and his land down-wind.
             • WeTheBleeple …

               18 November 2018 at 5:10 pm

               Yeah those lupins do a good job in sand. I was considering a wind/salt shadow of ascending height from the sedge to coprosma to something slightly taller. This to provide a less salty/windy micro climate behind.

               If the wind is onshore toward the property the fire risk would be from the ocean/wetland? This should provide a fire shadow?
               • Robert Guyton …

                 18 November 2018 at 9:27 pm

                 The wind comes from the other direction. I’m looking to build the windward forest first, then encourage the estuarine edge communities to multiply.
                 • WeTheBleeple …

                   19 November 2018 at 5:23 am

                   Nice. There are some salt tolerant Colocasia around, not sure if you can grow them down South though. Such beautiful plants… I’d put a lack of snails down to the high oxalates, and imagine they’re rather hard to burn.

                   But then, I’ve never grown an apricot in my life, so you Southern folk got me there.

                   Those sedges, on the waters edge of an estuary, are prime kokopu breeding material. Plant so the king tide levels lap up to their roots, the fish will do the rest. Basically a storm and a king tide coinciding is great kokopu loving weather. They can hide in the murk and lay up where it’s ‘safe’. The next king tide the spawn will hatch and head to sea. they’ll come straight back to where Momma was in whitebait season.

                   Trade secrets care of the late Charles Mitchell and myself, spread them around!
       • Graeme 1.7.1.3

         18 November 2018 at 11:26 am

         Kowhai appear to be quite variable and localised. I’ve got a small grove coming along as part of a local initiative to re-establish them in the Whakatipu Basin. Plants from a seed source that is quite similar to my dry location have thrived and are getting close to flowering, others from a cooler lakeside source have just died. The green seed thing is the method used here now with much better results.

         The Kawarau face of the Remakables has a lot of Kowhai remnants, going up to 6-700 m. Some of these trees are huge, 7-8 m tall and as wide since they are generally solitary. I’ve been fencing on that face this winter and came across a Kowhai that from a distance I thought was a willow.
         • WeTheBleeple 1.7.1.3.1

           18 November 2018 at 12:46 pm

           That’s fascinating.

           We have eight local Sophora species ranging in size from ~1 -3 m (prostrata) to up to 25 m (godleyi, microphylla) though sizes are typically half that.

           Most prefer dry conditions and need to be free drained, but I suspect S. tetraptera was your lakeside species, it can cope with wet feet and is the riparian dweller of the bunch.

           If you’ve any observations on growth rates I’d love to hear them. Without pampering they need their Mesorhizobium symbiont to really take off, not the Rhizobium associated with clover, acacia, etc. This will also explain failures of seeds to take in new areas at times. The Mesorhizobium do not appear to be ubiquitous like their Rhizobium counterparts.

           If you get soil and roots from seedlings under established trees you might luck upon rhizobia. Check inside them for the telltale red-purple color (not yellow/brown-orange) for viability. You can freeze these in a household freezer (not -20 lab freezers that kills them off) and crush them into a paste when you want to innoculate seeds.

           Still a fair bit of reading to go on all this as well, but hope that helps.
           • Robert Guyton 1.7.1.3.1.1

             18 November 2018 at 9:25 pm

             Collecting mesorhizobium from under parent trees…how far away from the trunk do you reckon the best, most active site for collection might be? I suspect drip-line or further; maybe much further, as the interface between root and mesorhizobium is likely to be at the exploratory point, Imo. Tricky! Interesting!
             • WeTheBleeple …

               19 November 2018 at 5:40 am

               Absolutely it’s tricky. Yes they reside toward to edges of the root system. You could plant drip lines then transplant away but this’ll get you in trouble on public property. Seedlings near established plants are an order of magnitude better to search under. This requires some seasonal knowledge as a rule (those damn rules again) the seeds are ready a couple of months after flowering. Ideally one would gather seed and rhizobia from the same plant host, but… tricky to get the rhizobia off an older plant.

               Sometimes, you can’t miss the stuff.

               Definately work from the drip line out on older trees but the rhizobia perish after a bit of time (don’t know exactly) and get harder to find as the trees age. But when you find some…. That’s the gold.

               Probably the same innoculant/s for the Carmichaelia. Will let you know when that reading is over.
       • Pingao 1.7.1.4

         18 November 2018 at 1:39 pm

         For kowhai, nurseries usually break seed dormancy of kowhai by soaking in sulphuric acid for a short time but be aware the acid requires wearing a proper facemask and acid resistant gloves. For smaller production people usually just soak them in hot water. There is some info out there somewhere on the interwebs. Otherwise there is a book by Lawrie Metcalf called “The Propagation of New Zealand Native Plants” that is a good starting point. For seed trays – they are best sown in mineral sand with a thin layer of fine stone chip on top to help keep the moisture in.

         For websites to identify kowhai species you could start with iNaturalist … fill in ‘kowhai’ and ‘new Zealand’s in the appropriateness fields and then click on an observation that does not identify which exact species. Then click on the genus name and that will take you to another page where you can view descriptions etc.

         Other useful websites are NZ plant conservation network and also Manaaki Whenua Landcare under plant systematics (haven’t looked to see if they have a key for kowhai though).
         • WeTheBleeple 1.7.1.4.1

           18 November 2018 at 2:17 pm

           Thanks Pingao. Civ 6 much?

           I already use all those resources but we do not have a Kowhai key.

           And the keys provided anyway, well, I can read them with my dictionary of ecology, dictionary of biology, google, science degrees…

           I want to tell the average person how to tell between Kowhai.

           Not paragraphs of this shit

           ‘Leaves 100-150(-220) mm, imparipinnate, moderately hairy, hairs, straight, appressed. Leaflets 10-20(-25) pairs, 15-35(-40) x 5-8 mm, well spaced, never overlapping or crowded, narrowly ovate to elliptic-oblong.’

           And to think, they made their monkeys do all the original write ups in Latin.

           /sarc
           • Pingao 1.7.1.4.1.1

             18 November 2018 at 5:10 pm

             WTB you got that right :). I’m hazy on kowhai – they got split again after I finished working at a nursery.

             I made my own key once just for local Carex species to try to sort them out in my head … it was still a bit of a puzzle but I did learn a lot about what to look for.
         • Robert Guyton 1.7.1.4.2

           18 November 2018 at 3:44 pm

           The home nursery-person can insert sandpaper into a tin can, rough side in, and make a shaker that will scarify kowhai seed easily (and musically). Perhaps a band and a regular session on a Sunday night? I understood the mechanism for kowhai seed dispersal was fall into a river, bounce along the stony bed until you’re washed ashore, battered, bruised and waterlogged, then grow as quickly as you can before the next flood.
           • Pingao 1.7.1.4.2.1

             18 November 2018 at 5:15 pm

             Good tip Robert. They seem to spout alright on their own even without any treatment under mature trees (although not reliably enough for home grown).
   • greywarshark 1.8

     18 November 2018 at 10:37 am

     Keep us posted! about your book’s progress and when it is to be launched. I think it should have a launching party at some live bookshop or perhaps your publishing company or if you have to self-publish do a crowd raiser for it and get people who care and act, on board.

     It’s just what is needed. I did a trawl through Lincoln Uni forestry connected info and felt that they were still pinus radiata fixated. I didn’t notice anything that I could connect to planning for the explosive future, exploding rain, or exploding fires after drought. We need more info and action for sure. Sorry to Lincoln if I overlooked some fine ongoing work in this direction.
     • greywarshark 1.8.1

       18 November 2018 at 12:44 pm

       I’ll just tack on an interesting bit about planting trees in USA with caring advice.
       So that the keen tree planter had success.

       Also a mention of a nasty borer which we will have to look out for as we embrace the world and its offsiders.

       http://treetrust.org/tag/emerald-ash-borer/
       • greywarshark 1.8.1.1

         18 November 2018 at 1:06 pm

         Also GM?
         https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/insight/audio/2018671180/has-the-time-come-for-genetic-modification

         Gene edited plants are just as safe as normal plants, according to one scientist.

         At a Plant and Food Research greenhouse in Auckland, one of the sections is filled with $300 apple trees, and Andy Allan, a professor of plant biology, is pointing out one of his favourite experiment, a tree with bright, fuchsia-coloured flowers.

         “The particular red gene we’re testing is under a strong expression, so the roots are red, the trunk is red, the leaves are copper and the fruit goes on to look more like a plum, it’s so dark.”

         The apple has an extra apple gene, making it genetically modified. There are other plants in this room that have exactly the same number of genes, but they’ve been edited.

         Along with the apples, pears, tomatoes and petunias are thriving, but many also flower all year round and produce seeds five years earlier than usual.

         Okay so – what affect will this have on bees, other plants, organisms? And when GM becomes the new thing for young people to get careers in, and corporates to make money from, and hopefully build up monopolies in, what then?

         And people selling similar goods as they have historically, what happens to them? Out of the way – we are better, cheaper, have this and that, have added vitamins. You making a living and having a life is nothing to us.

         The real disease we have to face is the constant morphing of capitalism presenting its face in unrecognisable ways until we see the connections to our cost. We know that the rich can’t be trusted as they have plundered us and the world to make more money to do what with? Anything that would be useful to mankind, also women, children, and all the little critters that form part of the world which we don’t pay attention to, may be wiped out and they will give you a half-penny to make up for losing your livelihood.
         • WeTheBleeple 1.8.1.1.1

           18 November 2018 at 1:25 pm

           I really like Andy he has no guile about him. But I do not trust GE to save anything. What good has monoculture done anyone except machine harvesters (oil), fertiliser sales (oil), pesticide needs (oil), etc.

           The money trail leads me to believe the real people behind all this care not one fuck about the planet, or your health.

           Monoculture means entire crops are susceptible to one organism overcoming their defenses. PSA anyone. Then the industry all wanted to sue the government. No personal responsibility, no earth care, no people care.

           Evolution is an arms race between plant and pathogen. As soon as the new GE plant savior of mankind is overcome they’ll have another extremely expensive option to replace the last failure, this one will do ever more incredible shit requiring ever more products to support it.

           The scientists are amazing, but most are deeply myopic stuck within compartments of their respective fields. These so called smartest folk need to get considerably smarter.

           AKA: Go multidisciplinary, or go home.
           • greywarshark 1.8.1.1.1.1

             18 November 2018 at 1:33 pm

             Multidisciplinary, that’s my secret watchword. I keep it as a talisman that I don’t know how to use, but it has power!
           • Robert Guyton 1.8.1.1.1.2

             18 November 2018 at 3:49 pm

             Did y’all read this article from a few days ago?
             It’s great and on topic.
             https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/108533174/facts-dont-give-scientists-a-monopoly-on-the-truth
             • greywarshark …

               18 November 2018 at 4:49 pm

               It is good for this scientist to get a publication out under his name as I understand that universities measure your worth by what you publish on your subject.

               Whether it serves any real useful purpose for discussing 1080, I think not. Calling for a meeting to discuss the topic is a bit late in the day. Because I am sure that many have been had and the environmental scientists concerned say there is no other way to reduce the pests depradating our nature reserves on difficult country than using 1080. DOC must be careful to not inflate their terminology. Using the word ‘safe’ is unscientific and sounds more like managerialism than science. But as safe as we can make it, would be truthful, along with a mention of the observed benefits as measured against the observed results including deaths.

               One thing though is that money is so short and politicians memories even shorter. DOC has funding for certain tasks, and none for others, yet all require some attention. What this scientist says may mask an anxiety that some results are not being counted because they are not part of the template for DOC to obey. If so he should speak up about this aspect.

               DOC has refined the dosage and changed the delivery but there will be some killings that they wanted to avoid. So they must be careful, and use it as a special tool, using hunters and bait lines. etc where possible. But we introduced the pest ourselves, and have also been pests that have helped wreck old NZ, we have to be determined to make good.

               All the wishy-washy feelings about the birds it has killed, and the fact
               that hunting dogs can die from it does not mean stop using it altogether. Magical ideas and theories won’t do the difficult task,
               because at the end of the day, there is always the spoilsport human looking for personal advantage, perhaps leaving a breeding pair when they hunt an area closely, to make sure of work for future years.
             • WeTheBleeple …

               18 November 2018 at 4:55 pm

               Good article for sure.

               I would add that the very reductionist nature of science makes it a poor choice for solutions for complex systems.

               It’s still the best we got for answering how stuff works, but yeah, it can be nonsensical with varying context.
             • McFlock …

               18 November 2018 at 5:33 pm

               I sort of agree with the article, but not with its reference to 1080?

               Yes, “safe” is subjective, but 1080 is one of those things where you’d have to really try to injure yourself with it. So how reasonable are people who strongly believe it is “unsafe”? Can people who will use unrelated photos of dead animals and blame 1080 really be engaged with in good faith discussions?

               One contribution the scientific method can make in subjective discussions is the principle that if you have to make shit up to support your point, you’re wrong.

               A better example is the Pike River re-entry: “safety” is a cold assessment of the known hazards, the efficiency of all available methods in ameliorating those hazards, and a subjective evaluation of the worth gained by overcoming those risks. Subjective, but informed. The 1080 argument? Not so much.
               • greywarshark …

                 18 November 2018 at 5:48 pm

                 I wasn’t impressed with the style of the article from an academic. I
                 was in Wellington in mid September and wandered up to Parliament Grounds. I was impressed with the vast chalked anti-1080 message on the pavement and on the top stone of the street walls. Very clearly carefully printed, precise, neat – it must have taken hours probably at night to get away with it.

                 It’s like abortion, the anti people just can’t accept the idea, and don’t want to hear about the value of abortion if done in the most appropriate way and with the right techniques. They want to throw aside every other heavy problem of their world and concentrate on the one thing. It makes them feel good and worthy and misunderstood by the other ignorant, foolish people.
                 • WeTheBleeple …

                   19 November 2018 at 5:49 am

                   I avoided the subject matter (1080) deliberately. It is the scientists who sound like religious zealots even their students all ape them without knowing why. If you argue you will quickly become a pariah (looney left, wrecker and hater) they do not want a discussion at all. I found it disgusting.

                   But the left – threats on DOC… WTF! They’re on their own.

                   I agree with the points re: 1080 is the best option for a shitty budget. That’s about all I agree on with regards to this closing of ranks and opinionated bullying posing as science.
               • Robert Guyton …

                 18 November 2018 at 5:54 pm

                 Scientists should present the facts, the research, the data but when it comes to values judgements, they should understand, as we do, that such judgements are not scientific. “Safe” is not a scientific term.
                 • McFlock …

                   18 November 2018 at 6:52 pm

                   It’s not an infinitely subjective term, either.

                   There are several mental disorders which are at least partially defined by the patient having an unreasonable and life-impacting perception of “safe”, either psychologically or physiologically. “Phobias” for a start.

                   Where people are assigning completely unreasonable “value judgements”, why should[n’t] people who know the field more closely correct them in plain language?

                   [edit-silly typo lol]
   • mary_a 1.9

     18 November 2018 at 11:41 am

     Many thanks for the time you are putting into this project WTB (1) and posting this info. Much appreciated. Will stay tuned.
2. Ed 2

   18 November 2018 at 7:16 am

   A disgraceful and nasty partisan report on Pike River by Stacey Kirk.
   Looks like she also gave a heads up about her report to a whole gaggle of Nat trolls, as hateful comments against Andrew Little have already been liked a whole heap of times this early in the morning.

   Kirk has form as a right wing propagandist.

   https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/108616189/stacey-kirk-high-risk-for-reward-of-going-down-pike-river-mine
   • james 2.1

     18 November 2018 at 7:33 am

     Indeed she is right.

     If someone dies (I I really hope nobody does) – then Little will have blood on his hands, and he should be held to account for it.
     • SaveNZ 2.1.1

       18 November 2018 at 7:42 am

       Well so far nobody was held criminally to account for 29 dead bodies and not sure I heard you worrying about blood on the Natz and mining industries hands when they operated a dangerous mine…

       John Key breaks his word to Pike River Mine families
       

       New Zealand Prime Minister John Key has told The Australian newspaper that the Pike River Mine “would be illegal” if it were constructed in Australia.
       http://www.hrdevelopment.co.nz/2011/06/john-key-admits-pike-river-mine-would-be-illegal-in-australia/
       • Naki man 2.1.1.1

         18 November 2018 at 7:59 pm

         “Well so far nobody was held criminally to account for 29 dead bodies and not sure I heard you worrying about blood on the Natz and mining industries hands when they operated a dangerous mine…”

         Its a bit of a stretch to suggest that the government is some how responsible for what happened at the mine.
     • Jum 2.1.2

       18 November 2018 at 8:55 am

       Having heard from you james, if this is the alt-right line of attack, I say double the guard on the mine.
     • Gabby 2.1.3

       18 November 2018 at 1:16 pm

       People have already died jimbo.
     • Pete 2.1.4

       18 November 2018 at 4:55 pm

       We get it. IF someone comes to harm Andrew Little will have blood on his hands and he should be held to account.

       And 29 people did come too harm, actually DIED, 29 of them, no ifs, buts or maybes, dead, and you seem content no-one has blood on their hands or can or should be held to account.
   • SaveNZ 2.2

     18 November 2018 at 7:38 am

     I still can’t believe the National government did not mount a rescue for those poor men. If the Natz were running the world, the Thai cave rescue, rescue helicopter’s or firefighter’s wouldn’t exist as when accidents happen ‘too dangerous to bother to do anything about it’ seems to be their mantra. Oh, too expensive too.

     Even Russia and China bother to do more when things go wrong in mines than the Natz led government, and guess what, often they are successful against the odds.

     It might be dangerous to re enter, just as loss of life has happened with other rescues or recovery efforts, but if it was really that dangerous, why the F did the mine get permission to operate and do we just sit back and cover up this crime?
     • greywarshark 2.2.1

       18 November 2018 at 10:39 am

       At Pike River, the police were in charge and decided it was too dangerous for them to do anything. For the politicians it was an operational matter.!
       • Treetop 2.2.1.1

         18 November 2018 at 12:09 pm

         I would like to know what specialist advice the police obtained pertaining to the Pike River mine operation prior to it being shutdown?

         As well when it came to the cost of retrieving remains the operation then became a government decision.

         Going into the mine draft will establish what is factual and what is incorrect in that area.
   • Patricia Bremner 2.3

     18 November 2018 at 8:25 am

     Stacey Kirk is a right wing troll who regularly sings from Hooten’s song sheet.
     • Sacha 2.3.1

       18 November 2018 at 10:09 am

       Yes. Making out that the decision is somehow driven by Andrew Little seeking glory says more about Kirk’s impoverished worldview than anything about him.

       Her unethical colleagues and bosses also get in on the act. Alongside the hack highlighting one dissenting voice, captioning a photo as “Representatives of *some of* the Pike River families” slyly undermines the mandate of the spokespeople.
       • Sacha 2.3.1.1

         18 November 2018 at 10:21 am

         Ah, I see there is already a dedicated post about this topic: https://thestandard.org.nz/will-andrew-little-be-responsible-if-the-pike-river-mine-gets-hit-by-a-meteor/
   • ScottGN 2.4

     18 November 2018 at 8:56 am

     She really nails her colours to the mast in that column. I like how there’s a contrast with HDPA in the herald this morning who points out that any money spent on Pike River recovery is better than the 26 million that Key wasted on his bloody silly flag referendum.
   • Sacha 2.5

     18 November 2018 at 9:48 am

     Another silly old hack flaps his gums in defence of his heroes in the last govt: https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/john-armstrongs-opinion-pike-river-decision-shabby-posturing-not-truth-and-justice
     • patricia bremner 2.5.1

       19 November 2018 at 12:41 am

       Well, this from the man who bad mouthed David Cunnliffe. Why would we rate his views?
   • mauī 2.6

     18 November 2018 at 10:17 am

     What a disgusting article. This is the tripe our so called journos dish up, scum.
   • mary_a 2.7

     18 November 2018 at 11:56 am

     Absolutely Ed (2) … Kirk’s piece is disgraceful and lacking substance. Nothing objective about it at all!

     Kirk has given the right wing supporters something to feed on this Sunday. Will keep them full for a while.

     Interestingly HdPA in the NZH today (try not to open her articles too often), while not exactly heaping too much praise on Andrew Little, has said re-entering the mine is the right thing to do, even though there could be risks involved. She even hinted at the way the Key government had reneged on their promises to the families.
3. SaveNZ 3

   18 November 2018 at 7:29 am

   Sunday Trivia…

   Students say they don’t know what ‘trivial’ means in exam question fiasco

   https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/16/students-say-they-dont-know-what-trivial-means-in-exam-question-fiasco

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/11/students-launch-petition-after-confusion-by-word-trivial-in-nzqa-exam.html

   https://www.change.org/p/nzqa-nzqa-to-accept-y13-history-essay-marks-based-own-student-s-own-definition-of-word-trivial?fbclid=IwAR3zpKzCmtKxwgswmL2v160H7sJ1WxSOE7fG9g4XEdYcyjisAZp4-p92Y4U
   • james 3.1

     18 November 2018 at 7:34 am

     meh … thats of little importance.

     🙂
   • WeTheBleeple 3.2

     18 November 2018 at 9:13 am

     Such an interesting exam question, and the plot of many movies… I’d have gone nuts answering this.

     With the widespread existence of the game ‘Trivial Pursuit’, students don’t have a leg to stand on defending their lack of vocabulary.

     Maybe student’s are not abandoning the humanities, instead, the humanities are fed up and abandoning the students.
     • SaveNZ 3.2.1

       18 November 2018 at 9:28 am

       Nope look around the universities, now that they are run like quasi businesses, in particular our education sold out to the private foreign student fees, guess what Law and engineering reign, the arts are out.

       Apparently to get the skills we are all going to become baristas, struggling farmers, aged care workers, builders or tilers or if you are “really smart’ , a lawyer in the vein of Jordan Williams or a CTV engineer… cos they seem to be dumbing down, if not just abandoning a lot of tertiary education in NZ in favour of the above where apparently those in the ‘know’ politically think the future lies…

       0% Pure critical thinking NZ +

       Lucky in preparation for the future the students these days seem to be good at successfully lobbying for ignorance, might hold them in good stead!
       • DJ Ward 3.2.1.1

         18 November 2018 at 10:01 pm

         Education follows the money. You will naturally have students making choices based on incomes. Engineering etc because Buisiness pays good salaries for those jobs. Law is popular as large incomes can be made in our fault divorce system, property, regulations etc.

         To imply those subjects result in non critical thinking people is absurd. There subjects revolve around logic.

         Considering what some people with Arts degrees believe in critical thinking isn’t something it can boast about either for too many.
     • SaveNZ 3.2.2

       18 November 2018 at 9:41 am

       That is what 8 years of “National” Standards have done to Kids.

       But luckily they are prepared for their future.

       https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/07/national-s-election-signs-perfect-photoshop-opp.html
       • SaveNZ 3.2.2.1

         18 November 2018 at 10:21 am

         They are even doing recruitment drives for foreign primary school kids now on the North Shore into state primary schools. Maybe an accountant or “entrepreneur” on the primary school board, who knows?

         Anything for a $.
   • Draco T Bastard 3.3

     18 November 2018 at 11:38 am

     The meaning of the word ‘trivial’ was obvious from the quote that they were supposed to write an essay about.

     So, no, they don’t get a pass because they didn’t understand the meaning of the word.
     • McFlock 3.3.1

       18 November 2018 at 4:10 pm

       Bit harsh.

       About the only meaning that can be most probably excluded is “importance” itself.
       Sure, the Bard could have been going for an ironic juxtaposition, but equally if you can’t remember the full passage, “familial”, “coincidental”, “bloody”, etc can make meaningful sentences as much as “unimportant”.

       Odd that they didn’t know the meaning of the word, though.
       • Draco T Bastard 3.3.1.1

         18 November 2018 at 4:53 pm

         Not really. They’re 13th year, they should know enough to extrapolate the unknown from the known. It’s how people learn their native language as a child.

         The exam asked for students to write an essay on whether they agreed with a quote from Julius Caesar which reads: “Events of importance are the result of trivial causes”.

         Context gives unimportant, minor, events not likely to be considered to change anything.
         • McFlock 3.3.1.1.1

           18 November 2018 at 5:00 pm

           I think you’re letting your knowledge of the word effect your interpretation of the context.

           Read it with a blank:
           “Events of importance are the result of _______ causes”

           Sure, there could be poetic juxtaposition for “minor”. But it’s a bold call to make in an exam.
           • Gabby 3.3.1.1.1.1

             18 November 2018 at 5:20 pm

             Probably best to choose an option you do understand, rather than one you don’t.
             • McFlock …

               18 November 2018 at 7:10 pm

               yeah – there’s a reason most A-grade undergrads start their essays with a definition of the terms 🙂

               Apparently the essay was marked on how you argued your case, rather than whether you got all the words right. So all good for the students who gathered themselves after shitting a brick when they read the question, lol.
4. james 4

   18 November 2018 at 7:40 am

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/11/serious-questions-over-papua-new-guinea-hosting-the-apec-summit.html

   What a waste of time.

   15 Million of NZ’s money wasted and [PM Jacinda Ardern] dosnt even get a meeting with the PNG leader.

   They buy 40 luxury Maseratis – but [PM Jacinda Ardern] gets a Toyota Highlander.

   [Any more misogyny and your next comment will be in 2019. TRP]
   • Patricia Bremner 4.1

     18 November 2018 at 8:26 am

     She chose that as a preference. Trolling James.
   • James 4.2

     18 November 2018 at 9:20 am

     Question to TRP – the name I have used is no worse than a lot of names given to national members.

     It’s not a Misogynistic name (although others have tried to frame it as such).

     How is this any worse than comments made by members of the left on here regarding Collins or bennet?

     If what I wrote is considered inappropriate- then ok – I won’t use that term – but politely point out that a lot worse is said of femail member of the right.

     [lprent: If it is the one I suspect that you used, then it is extremely misogynist. And I hardly think that ‘Crusher Collins’ is even remotely similar in the misogynist sphere.

     But feel free to point ones out that have been consistently used AND you can describe a reason why they are the equivalent. Also track if people have been pulled up on it as well – because I’ll check.

     Of course if you do your usual and go trivial about it or continue to whine about being pulled up on it (and waste my time), I’d be happy to replace your handle on your comments, past present and into the future on this site with something that I think is equivalent. Or I could just get rid whining.

     I always like to see people having choices with a bit of risk attached.. ]
     • Robert Guyton 4.2.1

       18 November 2018 at 9:24 am

       Cease your mewling, James.
       • Ed 4.2.1.1

         18 November 2018 at 10:05 am

         Thought James supported the All Blacks avidly.
         Why is he posting all this stuff during their game against Ireland?
         • solkta 4.2.1.1.1

           18 November 2018 at 10:07 am

           why would anybody care?
         • Robert Guyton 4.2.1.1.2

           18 November 2018 at 12:27 pm

           Coz the Mighties … lost?
           • James 4.2.1.1.2.1

             18 November 2018 at 2:54 pm

             They did – but what a game.
         • James 4.2.1.1.3

           18 November 2018 at 2:53 pm

           Because I’m capable of more than one thing at once.
     • te reo putake 4.2.2

       18 November 2018 at 9:39 am

       Belittling women is misogynist, James. However, thanks for accepting the moderation with good grace. I also weed out sexist remarks about Collins et al when I spot ’em. Same for racism, ageism and other casual bigotry. Can’t get them all, for obvious reasons, however most TS commenters make political points without resort to personal insults. Which is nice.
       • James 4.2.2.1

         18 November 2018 at 9:41 am

         Fair enough. When I see them I’ll do my best to help and point them out.
         • marty mars 4.2.2.1.1

           18 November 2018 at 10:05 am

           Yes it pays to reread ones own comments.
     • mac1 4.2.3

       18 November 2018 at 9:47 am

       James, if you search urban dictionary for a definition of a ‘cindy’ you might see why it is seen as derogatory and mysogynistic. Look through the definitions and see how many you would object too if your daughter for example was called one.

       The meaning is stereotypical and often used in a male context commenting on female characteristics.

       The nickname given to Collins is derogatory but it is specific to her perceived qualities and her political history. References to Bennett are unacceptable but not mysogynistic as other politicians like Lange, Muldoon and Brownlee have borne the same insult.

       Whatever the insult, they are demeaning to the individual and to the level of political discourse in which we are hopefully engaging.

       “They did it too” is not a valid defence. It might be a source of irritation but even in Rugby which I am ‘watching’ right now it doesn’t save you from the upraised arm of the referee.
     • bwaghorn 4.2.4

       18 November 2018 at 11:26 am

       Have to agree with James on this (God I feel dirty) this is politics . Key got called many worse things by most here including me . I find the cindy tag cringey but meh.
     • greywarshark 4.2.5

       18 November 2018 at 12:54 pm

       Can you stop verbally kicking our PM James? We care about our new young PM and want to see her able to do her political and private business helping NZ forward, and not to be constantly pecked at and sneered at in some way. It is insulting to the country and to good women. Just keep on criticising what she does as PM or doesn’t do if that is your purpose in life.
       • James 4.2.5.1

         18 November 2018 at 2:56 pm

         Did you treat key or English like that?

         Would you if it was bridges.

         Are you saying we treat this PM differently because you agree with her or because she’s a female?
         • DJ Ward 4.2.5.1.1

           18 November 2018 at 9:48 pm

           They can’t see misandry James.
     • Antoine 4.2.6

       19 November 2018 at 12:29 am

       @lprent – please please please rename James

       A.
   • R.P Mcmurphy 4.3

     18 November 2018 at 5:14 pm

     not really misogyny but an admixture of right wing tory nasty extremism with some of the other chucked in.
   • Gabby 4.4

     18 November 2018 at 5:21 pm

     I’d feel safer in a truck in PNG jimbo.
5. WeTheBleeple 5

   18 November 2018 at 8:46 am

   Highlander? There can be only one.
   • Puckish Rogue 5.1

     18 November 2018 at 12:38 pm

     There is only one and here he is:
6. SaveNZ 6

   18 November 2018 at 9:30 am

   https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/11/18/political-caption-competition-803/
   • James 6.1

     18 November 2018 at 9:38 am

     “you know sometimes it’s easier in my view to just to stop the trail and give them a good f**king hiding. Put an end to it right there and then.”

     There is a young girl amongst the people in the photo?

     Do people thing she deserves a good hiding also?

     Is violence the answer?
     • SaveNZ 6.1.1

       18 November 2018 at 9:43 am

       What has that got to do with

       National Party recruitment drive
       • James 6.1.1.1

         18 November 2018 at 9:53 am

         Ignoring calls of violence against people is an enabler of it.

         By trying to turn a suggestion of violence against people (including a young girl) into a joke is not appropriate.

         Given Māori are over represented in prison, domestic violence, and violence against children- it amazes me that you think that this is ok.
         • marty mars 6.1.1.1.1

           18 November 2018 at 10:22 am

           “Ignoring calls of violence against people is an enabler of it.”

           It is just a picture of the gnats recruiting – funny too in a sick way.

           Funny also how you kept mum about aaaaalllll the injustices you see around you now that the new government is doing so well. During the dark gnat years you aided and abetted them like a little toady by keeping your head down and mouth shut.
         • adam 6.1.1.1.2

           18 November 2018 at 12:57 pm

           What a sick puppy you have turned into james, you support the beating of children, then in another breath say all violence is bad.

           Either show some guts and admit beating children in any context is wrong – or crawl back under the rock you came from.
           • James 6.1.1.1.2.1

             18 November 2018 at 2:59 pm

             If you can’t tell the difference between a smack and giving them a good fucking hiding – you shouldn’t be allowed near children.

             Still I guess the law was made for people like you.
             • Robert Guyton …

               18 November 2018 at 3:07 pm

               A “good” hiding, James?
               Odd choice of words…
               What did you think of Key’s hair-pulling – assault or “horsing around”?
               • Ed …

                 18 November 2018 at 3:15 pm

                 The mask has fallen.
                 James is a construct.
                 Not a real person.
                 This morning he forgot he was a keen All Black supporter.
                 • James …

                   18 November 2018 at 4:02 pm

                   Not sure how you can come to that conclusion Eddie.

                   I watched the game and enjoyed it – despite the result. Ireland deserved the win.
               • James …

                 18 November 2018 at 4:00 pm

                 A good fucking hiding. – it’s a quote – if you don’t like it take it up with hone.

                 Would love to see how caring he is on the matter.
                 • R.P Mcmurphy …

                   18 November 2018 at 5:16 pm

                   are you a hooton bot james?
                 • Robert Guyton …

                   18 November 2018 at 9:18 pm

                   Quotes are presented inside of quotation marks, or they’re not quotes. Simple commenting etiquette, James.
                   • James …

                     18 November 2018 at 11:30 pm

                     See 6.1 above.

                     In your haste to be a smart arse you might have missed it.

                     Or just that your wee mind can’t carry a thread a few post.
             • adam …

               19 November 2018 at 2:39 am

               So no change from you then, still into beating kids then ah james. Nothing changes with you.
     • mac1 6.1.2

       18 November 2018 at 10:12 am

       Is violence the answer?

       No.

       Consider the violence offered to people who have a darker skin colour to be demeaned in this way. Consider the insult. Consider the violent and superior attitude of the casual and supposedly unaware racist majority shown in this public display. Consider the racism at the same A&P Show of the sale of golliwogs.

       In the Sixties, the engineering students had a culture of the “haka party” which they had the eventual wisdom to also consign to history as inappropriate. Like the golliwog I had as a boy in the Fifties.

       Context is important, too. Recent events in Taranaki are not helped by this form of unthinking (at best) violence. Mrs Mac1 mentioned a Nelson Morris Dance group which has a long tradition of blackening their faces. The historical context, however, gives the explanation that the dancers of former years wore the face paint as a disguise to hide their identity from such as disapproving employers.
       • mac1 6.1.2.1

         18 November 2018 at 10:23 am

         https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2018/11/dutch-fighting-in-the-streets-over-racist-black-pete-character.html?fbclid=IwAR0_E4tXuAx-2hOEDoUaze9XRdQY4xxFiW21KAvg5aiX6geYWrfEAl2dTak

         And now the Netherlands have a similar situation?

         Note that white Santa has black sidekick. Just as the Lone Ranger had Tonto as his cloured sidekick. Both white men have coloured men as their subordinates.

         Just as I looked up Tonto, the urban dictionary I mentioned above as a source of current colloquial usage, gives “tonto’ as a term of abuse, a racist insult this time.

         We do have a way to go with our bullying, racist, mysoginistic attitudes and behaviour……..
         • greywarshark 6.1.2.1.1

           18 November 2018 at 12:37 pm

           Can we ever stop analysing everything for the underlying meaning and accept that there are nuances in life?
       • joe90 6.1.2.2

         18 November 2018 at 11:04 am

         they had the eventual wisdom to also consign to history as inappropriate.

         The hospital admissions, stitches and broken bones probably precipitated their eventual wisdom.

         https://thespinoff.co.nz/atea/17-10-2017/mocking-the-haka-the-haka-party-incident-and-casual-racism-in-new-zealand/
7. Observer Tokoroa 7

   18 November 2018 at 9:45 am

   Pike River Scandal

   The Auckland Press – what a ratbag cockroach outfit that is – has ignored the fact the Police have declared the Pike River trajedy a Crime Scene.

   It has wheeled out that famous “miner’? – Stacy Nobody – to spray her witless words – for her darling editor .

   Mostly – she is annoyed over the cost of the re-entry of the Pike River Mine. It seems expensive at 23$Million. Money which should have been spent into making the Mine methane safe before any person was sent down that terrible hole. It was criminal to not ensure the mine was monitored and methane free.

   It would be nice if Stacy – a known national party troll – would ask the extremely wealthy John Key for 23$Million to give to the families who lost their fathers and brothers. 29 such brave persons who trusted a shifty John Key.

   In the meantime, could I ask Aucklanders to turn out a few decent writers. Ones who understand the Truth. Ones who don’t suck. Ones who declare for all New Zealand.

   I note that Heather Du Plessis Allen is no longer one eyed. Deft with her words too. Congratulations to Her.
8. Agora 8

   18 November 2018 at 10:04 am

   Movement in UK political polls ..

   https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/17/labour-gains-lead-over-tories-opinion-poll
   • Adrian Thornton 8.1

     18 November 2018 at 10:50 am

     Thanks, great news.

     Turn Labour left!
9. JanM 9

   18 November 2018 at 10:41 am

   https://inequality.org/great-divide/some-leveraging-inspiration-from-old-archimedes/?fbclid=IwAR1MittOP1088bcVw46BaYD6hWThsHQDIoI36mTrb6Y4TqcQnIUSk1W
   Worth a read IMO
10. Adrian Thornton 10

    18 November 2018 at 10:58 am

    Here is a very good interview with new UK Palestinian Ambassador Husam Zomlot.

    You know it is strange that so many commentators here on the standard bag RT, but I would like to know what Western media source would have this interview?

    ‘New Palestinian Ambassador to UK Discusses Israel Lobby, Netanyahu & Jeremy Corbyn!’
    • Ad 10.1

      18 November 2018 at 6:32 pm

      The “historic compromise” mentioned by the Ambassador of 30 years ago was from the King of Jordan who let them go.

      The Ambassador is keen for a two state solution, but doesn’t deign to confirm Israel’s right to exist as one of those two states.

      I don’t have any problem with this Ambassador slagging off the recent Israeli government’s settlement of West Bank and of Netanyahu’s leadership. Well deserved and I hope Netanyahu and his wife are shortly in jail. But pretty weird to hear a Hamas rep calling any Israeli government “extremist” when they have a fair few of their own, and criticizing the israeli government for being too Jewish is remarkable from a state run by one of the most militant forms of Islam around.

      The interviewer might want to apply to Weta Workshop such is his remarkable transformation into a doormat.
11. Observer Tokoroa 11

    18 November 2018 at 11:47 am

    Hi Cindy James

    What clothes are you wearing today Darling ?

    I hope you wash them frequently.

    [OT, pointless abuse is not welcome here. No more, please. TRP]
    • James 11.1

      18 November 2018 at 4:04 pm

      Sooo TRP is Cindy ok in this context?
      • te reo putake 11.1.1

        18 November 2018 at 7:10 pm

        No, no it is not. See above.
12. greywarshark 12

    18 November 2018 at 11:55 am

    Here is something important to NZ to discuss. If Kiwibank can enlarge and gather in some of the business that is going to foreign owned banks it will be better for us. They have been running long enough to prove that they can manage and compete satisfactorily.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/2018671704/tim-hazledine-time-to-give-kiwibank-teeth
    money
    Tim Hazledine: time to give Kiwibank teeth
    From Sunday Morning, 7:11 am today
    Listen duration 20′ :09

    Professor Tim Hazledine of the Faculty of Business and Economics at the University of Auckland says the government should give Kiwibank the power to compete aggressively on price against the local Australian banks, even at the risk of its own bottom line.
13. greywarshark 13

    18 November 2018 at 1:27 pm

    Education learning and how, what to learn? We have had over 100 years of learning just enough to ruin ourselves as a country and our environment. So long and thanks for the fish. So perhaps we should think about these new ways of learning – are they taking our minds and thoughts out of our bodies so we are not in tune with ourselves as whole organisms any more? Our heads looking at the stars, while our feet stand in cow poo, and we have no healthy food to eat.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/insight/audio/2018670501/learning-revolution-or-pathway-to-ignorance
    “We were teaching a lot of components of different maths things that they needed to know for future years.
    “[It was] a lot of ticking off of what they needed to cover, where for me today a lot of it is getting kids to learn through doing.

    “They are putting the knowledge to use, so they actually see the purpose of why they are learning.”

    Fellow teacher Andrea Tapsell says teaching had also changed hugely since she started out 16 years ago.
    “My whole teaching practice has had to change to incorporate the digital technology as well as student agency, as well as bringing in that inquiry, collaborative approach.”

    Collaborative approach. How can kids think their own individual thoughts if right from the start they are taught to think as a group? Isn’t that group-think – the one who is different doesn’t fit? Some sharp comments on what we think.

    Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, Thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Thought is great and swift and free. Bertrand Russell

    One should respect public opinion insofar as is necessary to avoid starvation and keep out of prison, but anything that goes beyond this is voluntary submission to an unnecessary tyranny. Bertrand Russell
    Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/bertrand_russell_125227

    Is this true?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists
    in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”
    ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman
14. greywarshark 14

    18 November 2018 at 1:40 pm

    Love this phrase ” areas of interest include communication avoidance and propaganda.”

    This man on Radionz was talking about it apprently. I didn’t hear him but was looking at the summaries for Wallace (today noelle) and he sounds interesting.
    The avoidance part is why I don’t read James and other trolls. There is only so much I can take in and I can’t afford to take in too much stressful trivia. (Example – did I need to know that there is some kerfuffle about an exam because some students didn’t know the meaning of trivial? Sheesh.)

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/2018671715/ethan-plaut-overloaded-by-media-how-much-is-too-much
    Ethan Plaut: overloaded by media – how much is too much?
    From Sunday Morning, 10:04 am today
    Listen duration 32′ :14″

    Dr Ethan Plaut, lecturer in media and communication at the University of Auckland, says the sheer volume of media messages in a 24- hour news cycle is more than anyone can critically process. Ethan Plaut is a former journalist who came from Stanford University to the University of Auckland in January and whose areas of interest include communication avoidance and propaganda.
    • DJ Ward 14.1

      18 November 2018 at 8:37 pm

      Its a subject I’ve looked at a lot as well.

      Quantity is a result of traffic based revenue and connectivity.

      So propaganda can be with quantity vs absence.

      EG,
      There is a large number of Kavanaugh is guilty slanted articles but very few exposing all the lies and false allegations. The public will be all exposed to the guilty arguments but few will read about the lies.

      Or,
      Everyone knows JLR was unfaithful as there has been many articles naming him and including statements on his infidelity. Very few articles exist naming the female MP who did the same thing. (Unfortunately it’s not mysoginist)
      • joe90 14.1.1

        18 November 2018 at 9:16 pm

        but few will read about the lies.

        Which lies?
15. Ed 15

    18 November 2018 at 3:48 pm

    Professor Mark Blyth is a British political scientist from Scotland and a professor of international political economy at Brown University.
    His ideas on Brexit are worth listening to.
    • Ed 15.1

      18 November 2018 at 3:49 pm

      Here Jimmy Dore looks at Mark Blyth and explores his argument why Brexit Is Good for working people In clear, simple terms.
      • Ed 15.1.1

        18 November 2018 at 4:02 pm

        Best quote from the video.

        “…The Hamptons are not a defensible position. The Hamptons are on a low-lying beach. Eventually the people will come for you.”
        • Ed 15.1.1.1

          18 November 2018 at 4:03 pm

          If you want to watch mark Blyth without Jimmy Dore, here is the extract.
          • Ed 15.1.1.1.1

            18 November 2018 at 4:07 pm

            More thought provoking stuff.
            Mark Blyth on The Consequences of Neoliberalism
            • greywarshark 15.1.1.1.1.1

              18 November 2018 at 5:38 pm

              Ed
              If you are going to put up a lot of youtube links, only leave one to open that you think is the best and put a half bracket at the front of the others as (so. That leaves them closed but ready to spring into action.

              Otherwise you fill up such a large portion of the page and I don’t want to have these videos dominate it. I get a similar feeling that I used to when I watched tv and had too many Harvey Norman ads come up. I never go there now and never will. Please don’t turn me away from the blog which I have visited for years.
              • Ed …

                18 November 2018 at 5:39 pm

                The best one is 15.1.1.

                You can always scroll past by the way.
                • te reo putake …

                  18 November 2018 at 7:24 pm

                  Or you could tone it down, Ed.

                  I mentioned the other day that should give a decent intro to the vids to which you link. That’s to avoid spamming the site or turning TS into lefty facebook. This is a place to discuss opinions, and that kinda implies your own opinion should be shared, not someone else’s.

                  So, tell us what you think, add some links where it adds colour or context, and argue your corner.
                • greywarshark …

                  18 November 2018 at 10:29 pm

                  You could politely say Ed that you can see what I mean, after I explained how much of the screen your consecutive video shots take up. You could say okay will do. That seems a reasonable, adult response to a reasonable request.
          • Ad 15.1.1.1.2

            18 November 2018 at 4:34 pm

            If Brexit was “about the 1%” as he states then it would have happened in New Zealand, Australia, Canada, and basically everywhere else that the left deradicalised. It didn’t. So no, the left is not to blame for everything as he implies.

            And I love the way he wants Europe but not the Euro.
            That means he supports the Pound, namely the English (London) economy that simply makes its money by being a financial capital of the world. He may as well be working for Northern Rock.

            But no, he has no need to analyze himself.

            It’s like he forgets which areas voted to stay, which sectors of British society voted to stay, which parts of the population voted to stay. There are plenty more actual analyses on the finer breakdowns of the vote on precisely why this happened – and why the vote was so close.

            The much more interesting questions are about:
            – how the House of Lords amends it,
            – which of Labor’s MPs cross the floor to get it through (including the redoubtable Brexit champion Corbyn) and therefore take the electoral credit
            – how it gets implemented,
            – how fast Britain’s economy declines afterward, and
            – how Russia, China, and the Untied States take advantage of a greatly diminished Britain and Europe and keep picking them apart into smaller pieces in their own interest.
            • Pat 15.1.1.1.2.1

              18 November 2018 at 5:39 pm

              I have an idea you may be in the Public Service in some capacity Ad…would that be the case?
              • Ad …

                18 November 2018 at 6:19 pm

                Don’t do doxxing. Poor form.

                You can say that I have some idea of how local an central government work.

                Try addressing the substantive points raised.
                • Pat …

                  18 November 2018 at 7:31 pm

                  substantive!….lol.

                  gross misrepresentation would be more accurate
16. Grey Area 16

    18 November 2018 at 4:27 pm

    Are you a member Ed?

    [Obviously some people have been missing the fact that ad homs aren’t going down too well with me. People have already been banned, and unless those of you jumping in on this sub-thread want to be joining them, then the suggestion is thatyou all pull your heads in. Do any of you think any author appreciates having the discussion beneath their posts trashed with kindergarten garbage? If it’s seriously all you’re capable of, then just comment on your own facebook or whatever and leave your keyboard alone when you’re on this site] – B.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
    
17. greywarshark 17

    18 November 2018 at 5:00 pm

    Open Parachute has an interesting item on Russia and bots and dodgy sites.
    https://openparachute.wordpress.com/2018/11/18/and-you-thought-russiagate-could-not-get-sillier/
18. Grey Area 18

    18 November 2018 at 5:00 pm

    Ed you haven’t answered my question.

    [To repeat. Obviously some people have been missing the fact that ad homs aren’t going down too well with me. People have already been banned, and unless those of you jumping in on this sub-thread want to be joining them, then the suggestion is thatyou all pull your heads in. Do any of you think any author appreciates having the discussion beneath their posts trashed with kindergarten garbage? If it’s seriously all you’re capable of, then just comment on your own facebook or whatever and leave your keyboard alone when you’re on this site] – B.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
    
    • solkta 18.1

      18 November 2018 at 5:01 pm

      Ed doesn’t do that. Answer questions? All so beneath him.
      • mauī 18.1.1

        18 November 2018 at 5:29 pm

        If he was shown some respect by certain commenters he might.
        • Ed 18.1.1.1

          18 November 2018 at 5:31 pm

          I reply to you maui and others who come on this site to share ideas.
          Rather than snipe and troll.
          • solkta 18.1.1.1.1

            18 November 2018 at 5:43 pm

            All maui ever does is agree and thank you. You two really should just get a room.
        • solkta 18.1.1.2

          18 November 2018 at 5:38 pm

          Your logic is standing on its head. One of the reasons that Ed is so disrespected here is that he will make a grand statement but then refuse to say what he actually means.

          [And the level of respect you think you’re commanding trying to pass this garbage off as in some way a contribution to this site? Read the moderation comments I’ve left up thread] – Bill
19. R.P Mcmurphy 19

    18 November 2018 at 5:19 pm

    dang.
    I scrolled past the funniest antinatvid I have ever seen on fb.
    They all got a jolly good serve! soymin and poymin an all the rest.
    if it comes again I will take the trouble to note the link.
    • Ed 19.1

      18 November 2018 at 5:28 pm

      Link ?
20. James 20

    18 November 2018 at 6:20 pm

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/11/derek-handley-granted-nz-citizenship-despite-being-years-short-of-requirement.html

    This is very amusing.

    Falling years short of the requirement- a multi millionaire friend of the PM gets granted residency.
    • Muttonbird 20.1

      18 November 2018 at 6:34 pm

      Peter Theil anyone? I believe Handley spent a lot of his youth in NZ. I’ll have to look that up. Peter Theil not so much.

      Edit: Here we go for a start.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Handley

      Also in the very article you link to it says he arrived here as a child of four and did all his schooling here including university.
      • James 20.1.1

        18 November 2018 at 6:39 pm

        He didn’t spend anywhere enough in NZ to qualify for residency.

        Submitted (assumed unsuccessfully), but reapplies when Jacinda becomes PM and voila- a visa and a job (and it looks like the residency might be as dodge as the job).
        • Muttonbird 20.1.1.1

          18 November 2018 at 9:13 pm

          James, were you born in New Zealand?
          • Robert Guyton 20.1.1.1.1

            18 November 2018 at 9:14 pm

            Or spawned “elsewhere”?
            I often wonder if James’ mother was named “Petrie” and was quite a dish!
            • Muttonbird 20.1.1.1.1.1

              18 November 2018 at 9:39 pm

              James reckons 20 years from age 4 to 24 isn’t enough to ‘qualify for residency’.

              I think this morning’s rugger result has had more effect on James than he’s willing to let on.
              • James …

                18 November 2018 at 9:46 pm

                Actually it’s the law that says that. See that’s why he couldn’t qualify under the normal rules.

                You’re a bit slow.
                • Muttonbird …

                  18 November 2018 at 9:58 pm

                  I think you’ll find he’s been a resident for some years. It’s you who is very very slow.
          • James 20.1.1.1.2

            18 November 2018 at 9:48 pm

            None of your business
            • Muttonbird 20.1.1.1.2.1

              18 November 2018 at 9:56 pm

              That’s a no. 😂

              Welcome, immigrant.
              • James …

                18 November 2018 at 11:34 pm

                No it’s none of your business.
      • James 20.1.2

        18 November 2018 at 6:40 pm

        So what?

        Try a link that shows he met residency requirements.

        I’ll wait – but you may be some time.

        What is it with this government and dodge residencies???
        • joe90 20.1.2.1

          18 November 2018 at 6:45 pm

          Dude’s former residency status and familial connections made him a shoo-in for citizenship under the exceptional circumstances provisions.
          • James 20.1.2.1.1

            18 November 2018 at 6:47 pm

            Wonder why he didn’t get it first time ?????? You know being a shoo in and all.
            • joe90 20.1.2.1.1.1

              18 November 2018 at 6:51 pm

              Couldn’t match Theil’s offer?
              • Robert Guyton …

                18 November 2018 at 9:16 pm

                Nice, Joe!
21. joe90 21

    18 November 2018 at 6:53 pm

    Planning rules, who needs ’em.

    #CAMPFIRE UPDATE: Death toll in Northern California wildfire reaches 76, as 1,276 people remain unaccounted for https://t.co/KdYaa733yV pic.twitter.com/rVVy81Cwa2— ABC7 Eyewitness News (@ABC7) November 18, 2018

    “Nobody would have ever thought this could happen,” President Donald Trump said while touring the Camp Fire devastation Saturday.

    That’s not true. The Camp Fire was inevitable. It is the event that so many dreaded for so long.

    People prepared. Fire prevention officials planned. They drilled. They worked with homeowners. They invented fire-safe councils and Fire on the Ridge and sent fire prevention officials to schools via a program called Fire Pals. They raised money to keep fire lookouts open when the state said it wouldn’t.

    Eventually, geography and topography proved to be the trap everyone thought it was.

    https://www.chicoer.com/2018/11/17/editorial-camp-fire-the-tragedy-we-were-all-warned-about/
    • DJ Ward 21.1

      19 November 2018 at 12:49 am

      You might be taking things out of context. Everybody knows fire risks were well known. That the state cut funding as its bankrupt. What happened in scale and speed was probably predicted by a few. Trumps assumption could be based on belief people had time to evacuate as much as the record setting severity.

      Diagnosis. TDS
      • joe90 21.1.1

        19 November 2018 at 11:12 am

        That the state cut funding as its bankrupt.

        Nope. The US federal government owns nearly half of the land in California, the other half is privately owned, so nothing to do with California’s fiscal position.
22. eco maori 22

    19 November 2018 at 8:07 am

    Kia oar The Am Show Mens day yes I’am a proud man Eco tau tokos men to but Equality is my goal .
    There you go Duncan the weather is reflecting the extra energy in our environment heat is energy hence the big fluctuation in Aotearoa and Papatuanuku weather and its only going to get stronger IF we all commit to mitigate carbon that is poisoning our environment we can minimize the bad effects of climate change .
    The Elon Mus effect is part of the Internet generation effect it has given Elon the power to force change’s that are beneficial for all human kind and not just the wealthy . Michio Kaku predicted that the internet 21’s Century communication device will keep the wealthy honest and the effect will have a big changes on our society.
    The only reason the Eastern Bay of Plenty is the way it is simon is because of shonky’s Law’s that kicked the Rural regions & poor people into touch . And the dump laws that made a plant that’s a gift from God that has many beneficial property’s to humans health was made illegal to clear the way for Alcohol barons to reap billions forced on NZ. The settler Nuns used it as the health healing plant it is.
    The britexit deal won’t go through unless Britain commits to a policy that rapidly reduces there carbon use fair enough I say.
    I remember back in the day the Couch’s changed every 3 to 4 years .
    Condolences to all the people who have lost family and property in the Californian fire’s.
    We no that the effects of the last governments policy’s are still flowing through the systems higher cost of living I know when I raised my offspring it was much easier to survive .
    The kombucha craze was going through Gisborne 15 years ago
    Ka kite ano
23. eco maori 23

    19 November 2018 at 12:53 pm

    This is what happens when the system cover up scams . I don’t want people like groper ropper around my MOKO’S
    I had just come off the recruit course and we were taught we were always to do what our superiors told us to do. We were taught to always follow orders.”

    Taylor says Roper’s behaviour towards female underlings at the base was well known. He would pull bra straps, pinch bottoms, push open the door of the airwomen’s change rooms while they were dressing. He did not hide his actions, Taylor says – they took place out in the open, for all to see.

    But before long, Taylor became a particular target of Roper’s attention.

    “In the early afternoon the senior NCOs (non-commissioned officers) would leave our section and and they would go down to the Sergeants’ mess and they would drink all afternoon.

    “Early evening, the Section would get a phone call and he (Roper) would specifically ask for a lift home from me.When I went to pick him up he was extremely intoxicated. The minute the car started he would lock the car doors and start abusing me. Ka kite ano
    Link below P.S you see people the system is far from perfect they protect there own and don’t care who they hurt in this protect the old——–man
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/108581557/ogled-groped-and-locked-in-a-cage-air-force-servicewoman-speaks-out-against-defence-force-for-protecting-rapist
24. eco maori 24

    19 November 2018 at 1:57 pm

    Eco Maori music for the minute P.S the sandfly did not like my last post the sirens are going off
25. eco maori 25

    19 November 2018 at 5:50 pm

    Kia ora Tekaea It was cool seeing those kuia getting into there fitness .
    Yes there is a lot of people who don’t not what there tipuna have done or achieved I can research our’s there is a bit of infomation on the internet
    Burning all those log on Tolaga Bay beach its awsome that its cleaned up the mess .
    Our beach is covered in logs to but you would be lucky to have one person a day go there. Ka kite ano
26. eco maori 26

    19 November 2018 at 6:39 pm

    Kia ora Newshub Yes Berne I agree with your word’s and Andrews.
    With that building that collapsed in the Christ Church earthquake well not only the builder is at fault the council is to what a sham.
    No demerit points for the cops they love hassling me on the road unmarked and marked car at least they won’t be hassling other people while they watching me 24/7 what a waste of money.
    5G is a technology we need to get correct on the first roll out .
    Taupo people you need to get off Grid Solar power systems if the grid goes down you will still have power how can a Town like Taupo lose power with one fault that is not on.
    Salvation Army is a good charity to make donations to they do a lot of good work for the common poor person Kia kaha people this is what happens when a business person routs all the money to his M8s.
    Peter Jackson new movie looks awsome may be he should make one on Aotearoa in the 1850 to the 1900. Ka kite ano

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