Open mike 18/12/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, December 18th, 2019 - 148 comments
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148 comments on “Open mike 18/12/2019 ”

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  1. James 1
    18 December 2019 at 7:29 am

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12226212

    Shows how some people can have such a pleasant public face and be a complete bastard behind doors.

    • Jimmy 1.1
      18 December 2019 at 9:40 am

      Yes sounds like he was a really nasty piece of work that couldn't handle his drink.

      • aom 1.1.1
        18 December 2019 at 9:59 am

        At it again with prejudicial remarks Jimmy? This is the second time in two days. Sometimes life is a little more complicated than 'a really nasty piece of work that couldn't handle his drink' as Magasiva's suicide suggests.

        • James 1.1.1.1
          18 December 2019 at 11:20 am

          Anyone who beats their partner IS a nasty piece of work.

          it’s not complicated at all.

          [Your callous comment displays your lack of nuance and blindness to context and circumstances and whilst domestic violence cannot be excused, comments such as yours do nothing to help and only stoke anger and negative emotions, which polarises and demonises people who need help with their issues. The issue for me, as Moderator, is that comments such as yours may discourage others from commenting on this site on sensitive and complex issues such as domestic violence and suicide. Banned for two weeks – Incognito]

          • Robert Guyton 1.1.1.1.1
            18 December 2019 at 12:19 pm

            Simple is the new nuance.

          • Incognito 1.1.1.1.2
            18 December 2019 at 1:12 pm

            See my Moderation note @ 11:20 AM.

          • Robert Guyton 1.1.1.1.3
            18 December 2019 at 1:19 pm

            Again, I applaud your timely intervention, Incognito. James' dull provocations excite only him and his feckless kin and deter kind commentary from those who watch, hoping for encouraging debate. Two weeks? You're so kind smiley

        • Jimmy 1.1.1.2
          18 December 2019 at 12:38 pm

          Oh dear, I must be a terrible person. However, I don't slap the partner around. Can't believe you defend him…….I pity your partner.

          [You crossed the line by making a personal insult to another commenter on sensitive and complex issues such as domestic violence and suicide. Banned for a month – Incognito]

  2. James 2
    18 December 2019 at 7:32 am

    https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2019/12/boris-johnson-attempt-outlawing-brexit-extension-2020-191217083501588.html

    Boris is really moving on Brexit. The message to the EU is clear – negotiate fast and well – or face a no deal.

    fantastic to see such action for the UK.

    • Bearded Git 2.1
      18 December 2019 at 8:30 am

      It’s a stupid thing to do-trying to bully the EU in the negotiations. Pathetic and meaningless showboating.

      In a years time when negotiations turn to custard Johnson will be forced to ask for an extension, which will get through parliament no problem, or allow the UK to crash out which would be politically and economically dumb.

      • Wayne 2.1.1
        18 December 2019 at 10:31 am

        The situation has changed. The EU can’t game the UK parliament. There is no longer a prospect of the UK not leaving. The EU stands to loose as much as the UK if they fail to agree on an FTA.

        So in my view a deal will be done in 12 months. If there is any extension it will be essentially technical. That is the actual deal for the FTA is done in December 2020, but will take a few months to be actually implemented.

        I know a lot of the Left (including many Standardnistas) are willing and hoping that Boris will fail. It is a bad bet. He got a deal with the EU that many thought impossible. He then won a resounding victory. It wouldn’t pay to think that this time he will fail.

        I recall a time from the Thatcher era when I was in the UK. Scargill thought he could beat Maggie, even though she had won in all previous big issues. I recall thinking he must be mad. There was no chance he would defeat her. He was actually offered a reasonable deal but rejected it. He went on to total defeat. Entirely predictable.

        I suggest it will be the same here. Those betting on the EU being intransigent will be wrong.

        • Anne 2.1.1.1
          18 December 2019 at 10:44 am

          Wayne, you really must learn the difference between loose and lose.

          "Loose" is a loose belt round your middle.

          Lose is to lose your wallet in the supermarket.

          Hence the EU stands to lose……

          • Dennis Frank 2.1.1.1.1
            18 December 2019 at 10:56 am

            He's doing postmodernism. An extra o makes no substantive difference because it's just a big fat zero. indecision

            • mikesh 2.1.1.1.1.1
              18 December 2019 at 11:27 am

              The two words are pronounced differently. I'm not sure why the double 'o' gives rise to a different pronunciation, but it does. One feels that lose should be spelt with a 'z' like snooze.

              • In Vino …
                18 December 2019 at 4:48 pm

                English spelling is bloody ridiculous when you compare 'lose' and 'loose' with 'choose' and 'chose'. People who claim to see any consistent logic in standard English spelling are delusional.

              • Gabby …
                18 December 2019 at 10:46 pm

                The whoreson zed is an unnecessary letter.

        • Dennis Frank 2.1.1.2
          18 December 2019 at 10:54 am

          Those betting on the EU being intransigent will be wrong.

          Wanna bet? Aren't the EU mandarins leftist? Aren't they're the kind of people who believe they know best? It would surprise me if they demonstrated the ability to do realpolitik.

          Plus there's the fact that united Europe is the prime Bilderberger project. No way will the ruling elite allow their servants to admit failure via compromise. To do so would send the signal that the elite will allow autonomy to other European countries too. They must stand firm. Punish the Boris.

        • Bearded Git 2.1.1.3
          18 December 2019 at 5:47 pm

          Wayne-I didn't say Boris will fail in the negotiations. I'm sure some sort of deal with the EU will be cobbled together, it just won't be done in 11 months. That is why Johnson's deadline is daft.

          Of course in the long-term, over the next 5 years, Johnson will fail. He was the worst foreign secretary the UK has ever had. He loves his banking mates and knows the price of a bottle of champagne but not milk.

          The "red wall' will return with a vengeance. Scotland will leave. Chaos will ensue.

    • Psycho Milt 2.2
      18 December 2019 at 8:52 am

      The message to the EU is clear – negotiate fast and well – or face a no deal.

      Bizarre. It's reminiscent of "Hold it! The next man that makes a move, the ni**er gets it," with the Tories thinking the EU will say "Hold it men, he's not bluffing!"

      • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 2.2.1
        18 December 2019 at 8:58 am

        Apt reference – Blazing Saddles a favourite movie.

        • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 2.2.1.1
          18 December 2019 at 9:13 am

          Meant to add – Boris has no bargaining position.

          • soddenleaf 2.2.1.1.1
            18 December 2019 at 9:52 am

            Sorry, I must be missing something. Brexit, the actuality, is easy. It's keep everything as close to as it was. Sure over time drift will be work through. The hard part was the backstop, and border fees. Brexit is as business as usual is everyones goal. Boris cant do that, its becuase he wants to not achieve the normal business. why does he need a bargaining position, he was elected to get it done, do it already.

          • Roflcopter 2.2.1.1.2
            18 December 2019 at 10:02 am

            Boris has all the bargaining power… leave on my terms, or we'll hard Brexit.

            People are under the impression that a hard Brexit leaves Great Britain in a void; it doesn't. They just revert to WTO rules, and keep calm and carry on.

            Trade potential outside the EU is greater than on the inside, and with less restrictions.

  3. Stuart Munro. 3
    18 December 2019 at 7:45 am

    The EU is a bit tired of Boris's shenanigans. A no deal Brexit isn't alarming to them, and Boris's crude grasp of negotiation is on a par with Muldoon's squid pro quo – achieves nothing but creates lasting distaste.

    The next election should be a shoe-in for the Left – after Boris Attila the Hun would look good.

    • I feel love 3.1
      18 December 2019 at 8:37 am

      Nosher Powell as Brit PM in Eat the Rich knocks the Israeli and Palestinian guys heads together "now shake hands", that's pretty much what the right wingers are cheering.

    • Anne 3.2
      18 December 2019 at 10:01 am

      Yes, I can picture the coming scenario:

      Ordinary citizen gets interviewed in street by TV reporter:

      "If I'd known what Boris Johnson was really like I wouldn't have voted for him"

      Repeated ad nauseam around the country.

      He'll be on his best behaviour for a while but leopards etc….

      • Stuart Munro. 3.2.1
        18 December 2019 at 10:31 am

        I think Boris is something special – not just a cross between a polar bear and an unmade bed. The Poms turned out on the streets to oust Thatcher, they can do as much for Boris.

        • Wayne 3.2.1.1
          18 December 2019 at 10:38 am

          Thatcher won 3 elections. Her poll tax was a disaster, but it was after she had been in office for 10 years. Even then, once she was gone, Major won in 1994.

          I expect that Boris will win the next election, but not the one after that. In fact he might not even stand. So expect two terms for Boris, say 8 to 10 years.

          Those who think he will be an easy beat have already forgotten how well he did as London’s Mayor. Two substantial wins.

          • Stuart Munro. 3.2.1.1.1
            18 December 2019 at 12:15 pm

            Thatcher had her shit together much more than Boris, Wayne. One need not even dig to find evidence he wasn't coping either as foreign minister or PM. The man hasn't changed – like Bridges, short of divine intervention there is nothing to keep him in power.

          • Gabby 3.2.1.1.2
            18 December 2019 at 10:49 pm

            He'll've been stabbed by an enraged husband before then Wayknee.

  4. Dennis Frank 4
    18 December 2019 at 9:34 am

    So notorious leftist Nigel Latta accuses the Nat leader of using trumpism. Simon accuses Nigel of being foreign. At least he didn't say immigrant.

    "The problem is after 9 years you delivered a health system in disrepair, a housing crisis, a shameful record on mental health etc etc. You can't just keep pretending all the problems started in the last 2 years. They're just getting started cleaning it all up. Also, I'm a kiwi."

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12294626

    The corporate hacks running TVNZ will be spluttering in their coffee this morning. Nigel may get relegated to TV3.

    • Anne 4.1
      18 December 2019 at 10:15 am

      That is what TV3 should do to help get out of it's current doldrums:

      hire all the well known commentators and celebrities who are not afraid to stand up and tell the truth and have been sidelined by the Nat. apologists in the media. Word would soon get around and before long their audience would be back again.

      • tc 4.1.1
        18 December 2019 at 1:18 pm

        Takes time and resources to go from tabloid shock jock gooner/richo/paddy to a more integrity based approach and you assume the private equity owners give a toss.

        Remember the treatment JC and others got by dropping Weldon in ? Leopards and spots.

    • weka 4.2
      18 December 2019 at 10:46 am

      Notorious leftist?

      • Dennis Frank 4.2.1
        18 December 2019 at 11:00 am

        Simon says. "Deep left". Think of it as a reputation-building saga. Alternatively, Nigel may be outing himself as a career move. Join the Greens, Nigel!

        • weka 4.2.1.1
          18 December 2019 at 11:36 am

          National running Trumpian 'evil left' lines. Not that they haven't before, but the context is different now.

          • Robert Guyton 4.2.1.1.1
            18 December 2019 at 12:24 pm

            Key's, "Devil Beast" (Labour Party) is pretty hard to beat.

            • weka 4.2.1.1.1.1
              18 December 2019 at 12:26 pm

              lol, I didn't know about that one.

              How've you been Robert? Haven't seen you around much lately.

              • Robert Guyton …
                18 December 2019 at 12:40 pm

                Key said it in the House. I was watching at the time. He was testing the waters. It will be used.

                I've been fully engaged, weka. There's a lot happening at grassroot/flaxroot level, around agriculture and local body politics. I've never seen so much cooperation between science, First Peoples, those with reddened necks and townies. The pot's being stirred and a very pleasing colour is emerging smiley

                We talk about tipping points; we've just passed a few of them. Boris and Donald leave me completely uninterested; they are not on the crest of the wave. I read what's happening here (skim more) and am waiting…political animals might be the last to see it, who knowssmiley Presently, I'm decluttering like never before; it's amazing what I casually held to be significant,. when in fact, it isn't; many trips to the Op shops, only this time giving, not taking smiley

                My Christmas reading? (I know you didn't ask) "Thus spake the plant" Monica Gagliani. Best Watch? The forest gardensmiley

                Too many smiley faces but that's how I feel.

                • weka …
                  18 December 2019 at 12:52 pm

                  Love the good news report, thank-you!! smiley

                  I'm decluttering too, and it feels different now, not so much a personal shedding of stuff (although that helps) but a clearing away of the unnecessary so my energy can be best focused on what really matters.

                  Today I'm watching a recent vid from Rupert Read who is talking about the importance of what we feel in response to CC, and how that affects what we do. A nice counterpoint to the jabby, in your face approach of Hallam (which I am torn about. My mind says his way is problematic, my body is cheering him on).

                  I have a post nearly done about the Country Calendar episode on the inspiring couple now landsharing the Fitzsimons' farm. It interests me that it is still easier to write the more mainstream argy-bargy political posts than the solutions-focused ones, and your comment about what political animals might be missing seems pertinent, will think on that.

                  Thanks for the headups about the Keyism.

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    18 December 2019 at 1:11 pm

                    You're welcome, weka. I watched the Country Calendar "Fitzsimons" programme a while back… very good and the young man now writes for NZGardener, as I do. He and his partner work hard and dig deep; I'm not a digger so our philosophies differ somewhat…I have a friend, Lily, who interns at Pakaraka and who visited us here in Riverton recently. In fact, she's the daughter of an old friend… placing me on the dog-eared side of the ledger, I reckon smiley That said, Harry probably thinks of me (if he ever thinks of me) as a young upstart smiley

                    • Matiri …
                      18 December 2019 at 1:19 pm

                      I love the good news report too – need similar progress in Westland!

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      18 December 2019 at 1:21 pm

                      It's coming, Matiri, like the swelling tide!

                    • weka …
                      18 December 2019 at 1:23 pm

                      I loved seeing the bits of Jeanette and Harry's stories in there too, and so impressed that they made the landsharing work.

                      Yes, different philosophies. This example seems easy enough to present to the mainstream as 'workable' in conventional terms.

                • Stuart Munro. …
                  18 December 2019 at 1:41 pm

                  The Kono test may even be relevant to politics.

                  "Does it spark joy?"

    • Anker 4.3
      18 December 2019 at 6:57 pm

      Love it Nigel. About time someone said it and said it strongly

  5. Dennis Frank 5
    18 December 2019 at 9:50 am

    Danyl McLaughlin explains why bullshit is winning with your help: https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/18-12-2019/in-the-attention-economy-bullshit-wins-and-youre-helping-shovel-it-along/

    So here's the guts: "the upper middle-class cliques of journalists, academics, artists, intellectuals and activists (Thomas Piketty refers to it as “The Brahmin Left”, reflecting its 21st century transformation into a priestly caste primarily concerned with moral transgressions). They form the leadership and core constituency of leftwing political parties, and they still attempt to play a gatekeeper role around political debate. But instead of policing the window of debate – pretending to impartial objectivity while excluding what it feels should or cannot be said – it amplifies messages it believes lie outside the bounds of acceptability. The ruthless logic of the Attention Economy rules progressive online and media spaces; everyone competes for attention by demonstrating their moral and intellectual superiority, so any and every public statement that breaches progressive taboos or activates this class’s (very acute) sense of threat can easily earn massive media coverage."

    "The incentive structure here is terrible. The worst ideas and most deceitful statements are often the most amplified and therefore the most successful. The sustained moral panic about “fake news” (but only on the right), incentivises the manufacture of fake news." So outraged liberals operate as a disinformation gang. Well, they have to, don't they? Rightists do it, so leftists must copy. Democracy was designed to be symmetric.

    • ianmac 5.1
      18 December 2019 at 10:52 am

      so any and every public statement that breaches progressive taboos or activates this class’s (very acute) sense of threat can easily earn massive media coverage."

      So the dreadful messages to the threatened become the food for Right wing panic and control.

    • pat 5.2
      18 December 2019 at 11:03 am

      Not sure (from that summary) hes grasped exactly the main point of the argument Piketty (esp) is advancing…essentially it is a lack of representation of the disenfranchised by both left and right(although the right are not expected to) and the resulting disengagement.

      "With the major parties on both sides of the political spectrum becoming captured by elites, it’s no wonder so many voters feel unrepresented. A 2016 poll by the Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI) found that more than six in ten Americans don’t feel that their views are being represented by either of the major political parties. A separate poll by Quinnipiac University found that 76 percent of Americans agree with the statement “Public officials don’t care much what people like me think.”

      "None of the above two options seems likely to lead to a reduction in inequality, renew voters’ trust that democracy can address their problems, or overcome nativist sentiments. However, Piketty proposes a third possible trajectory, one in which left-wing parties (or nativist parties, though this is less than likely) return to their long-abandoned class-based politics and adopt a powerful progressive agenda focused on reducing inequality through redistribution. Without such an agenda, he argues, politicians would find it difficult to unite low-income, low-education voters and build a wide enough coalition able to counter inequality."

      https://promarket.org/democracy-fails-reduce-inequality-blame-brahmin-left/

      • Dennis Frank 5.2.1
        18 December 2019 at 11:43 am

        Good point, but the conclusion evident from those polls is that representative democracy is no longer fit for purpose. Piketty doesn't get that. I lack his faith in a return to class-based politics and wonder why he has that faith when everyone else has lost it. People mostly nowadays don't identify with a class. Identity politics took over.

        • pat 5.2.1.1
          18 December 2019 at 11:48 am

          Its no longer fit for purpose IN IT'S CURRENT FORM'….a point Piketty recognises and advances a solution.

          There is a choice for the elites…they can give up a little or risk it all…currently they are employing a successful strategy and appear confident theres no need to give ground….like a sharemarket bull run they think they can pick the time to get out before the crash….we know how that works out.

          • greywarshark 5.2.1.1.1
            18 December 2019 at 12:28 pm

            DF Identity politics 'masked' the other matters, pushed them to the side, but class is still there only more anxious as everybody else seems to push ahead in the queue. We're still here, and we are getting really brassed off say those waiting with what they feel are the legitimate claims to be fairly heard and considered.

          • Blazer 5.2.1.1.2
            18 December 2019 at 4:25 pm

            hey Pat,they are clever,however…they have identified NZ 'Godzone' as an appealing bolthole.

            That's ..'insurance'.

            • pat 5.2.1.1.2.1
              18 December 2019 at 4:32 pm

              It would seem so….and one 'they' actively advocate for the continuation of neo liberalism within….essentially a 'replacement policy'

        • Stuart Munro. 5.2.1.2
          18 December 2019 at 12:21 pm

          People mostly nowadays don't identify with a class.

          A middle class assumption – those impoverished by the unfortunate neoliberal experiment are acutely aware of the ground they have lost.

          • Dennis Frank 5.2.1.2.1
            18 December 2019 at 12:46 pm

            I vaguely recall reading social science research results that established it as fact, but dunno where I saw that. I agree that those made losers by the left/right collusion have a valid grievance. But I don't believe class-based political action has been produced as a result. If it had, we'd see Marxists trumpeting it as evidence that Marxism remains viable.

            • arkie 5.2.1.2.1.1
              18 December 2019 at 1:15 pm

              Marxism is a method of analysis of socio-economics, so of course is still 'viable'.

              Is there any subject that you're unwilling to pontificate about?

              • Dennis Frank …
                18 December 2019 at 1:38 pm

                I'm not an aspiring pontiff. Marxism is actually a belief system, incredible though that may seem. If you peer determinedly into acadaemia you may discern a small priesthood there that uses the label for economic analysis, but since most political commentators nowadays agree that economists are mostly too divorced from reality to be politically relevant, so what?

                • arkie …
                  18 December 2019 at 1:45 pm

                  I'm not an aspiring pontiff.

                  Perhaps not. But:

                  pontificate

                  verb

                  /pɒnˈtɪfɪkeɪt/

                  1. 1.

                    express one's opinions in a pompous and dogmatic way.

                  And to your assertion:

                  Marxism is actually a belief system

                  as I already stated:

                  Marxism is a method of socioeconomic analysis…

                  …Marxism has had a profound impact on global academia and has influenced many fields such as archaeology, anthropology, media studies, science studies, political science, theater, history, sociology, art history and theory, cultural studies, education, economics, ethics, criminology, geography, literary criticism, aesthetics, film theory, critical psychology and philosophy.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    18 December 2019 at 2:09 pm

                    Hey, why not demonstrate it's relevance to politics today? I'm all for identifying principles that tend towards universality. I accept residual class divisions exist – I just see no evidence that they produce political behaviour. What we seem to be getting nowadays is a resurgence of tribalism & nationalism.

                    I began to expect the left to bring their intellectual analysis up to speed in the early seventies. I agreed with Jeanette Fitzsimons that focus on the common good was the way to go & said so when necessary. Marx is all about being partisan. Holism is the opposite to the myopic focus on parts!

                    • arkie …
                      18 December 2019 at 2:27 pm

                      There are none so blind as those who will not see.

                      We need Marx's analysis more than ever, it is essential to understand why the neo-liberal lefts' appeal to identity over circumstances is so unpopular with those traditional left wing constituents, workers. Unions, and therefore class consciousness, have been successfully undermined by capital and regulatory capture since the mid 20th Century.

                      Democracy at Work is an organisation that 'analyzes capitalism critically as a systemic problem and advocates for democratizing workplaces as part of a systemic solution. We seek a stronger, fuller democracy – in our politics and culture as well as in our economy – based on workers’ equal collaboration and shared leadership inside enterprises and throughout society.'

                      This worker centred politics is precisely the type of Marxism that is producing the kind of 'political behaviour' that is needed to provide a real left alternative to the neolib/neocon consensus.

                    • Blazer …
                      18 December 2019 at 4:29 pm

                      Tweedle dee and tweedle dum…democracy means people have a choice…so ostensibly give them one.

                      Perception always trumps ..reality.sad

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    18 December 2019 at 2:58 pm

                    Yes, I always advocated more democracy at work along with profit-sharing. https://www.equaltimes.org/ownership-should-not-equal-control

                    Eventually I realised that businesses originated by employee/owner/operators was the way to go. Mondragon being the historical model. So why don't workers head down that road? Marxism doesn't tell us.

                    • arkie …
                      18 December 2019 at 3:15 pm

                      So why don't workers head down that road?

                      Because they have been disempowered by capital and are 'represented' by a Labour party that has swung towards the right since 1984.

                      There are whole generations of workers who have never known the power in a vibrant Labour movement, how can they conceive of something that so many 'on the left' say is impossible? They have been told There Is No Alternative to the status quo.

                      Marx explicitly says that capital will do whatever it can to undermine worker power. In fact he actually underestimated how successful capital would be at that, thanks, in no small part, to 'left' politicians.

                • Stuart Munro. …
                  18 December 2019 at 1:46 pm

                  Marx's analysis was pretty good, problem was only that his solutions were a bit heroic.

                  It's not necessary to put the righties against the wall, only to make them pay their way. They will feel like Smaug losing his treasure anyway.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    18 December 2019 at 2:14 pm

                    True. The Greens adopted the principle of true-cost accounting. I've never seen Labour adopt it. Plus Marxists always seemed to get lost in analysis, as if it were a swamp they were exploring and couldn't extricate themselves from. Solutions require moving out of analysis into synthesis.

                    • Stuart Munro. …
                      18 December 2019 at 3:31 pm

                      One of my enduring grievances against postmodernism that – it can't produce synthesis. We're overdue for new one, and this one needs to bring in ecology and I think tikanga as well as the classical virtues brought together by the bloke who taught Smith & Hume.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    18 December 2019 at 4:01 pm

                    Rousseau? https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691177014/the-infidel-and-the-professor

                    "If Smith was the ultimate establishment figure, Hume was the ultimate subversive." https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/21/business/dealbook/infidel-professor-adam-smith-david-hume.html

                    "It was not just in their lifetimes that Hume’s renown outstripped Smith’s. Hume’s continuing impact on individual thinkers and broader fields of study is truly breathtaking. Kant, Darwin and Einstein (who credited him with inspiration for relativity theory) is a short list of great minds deeply influenced by Hume. And, in addition to the effect of his thought on economics, he is considered by some to be the father of modern cognitive science."

                    "What was a source of both shock and fury was a letter appended to every edition of the work from Adam Smith, describing the “cheerfulness and equanimity” of his dear friend’s final days. Even more infuriating was Smith’s overall conclusion that Hume approached “as nearly to the idea of a perfectly wise and virtuous man, as perhaps the nature of human frailty will permit.”"

                    "Smith had spent his life and career avoiding the kind of controversy and offense that Hume had reveled in. By associating his name and reputation with such a strong defense of Hume’s moral character, Smith risked not only his social and professional standing, but the fortunes of his long-gestating masterpiece, “The Wealth of Nations,” which had just finally been published."

                    Great stuff, which I'd never come across, thanks for the tip!!

                    • Stuart Munro. …
                      18 December 2019 at 4:55 pm

                      The bloke who taught both Smith and Hume was Hutcheson – a fellow who produced a neoclassical synthesis arguably superior to Kant' s, and whose influence ultimately ended slavery first in England and later in the US – he was a major figure in the Scottish renaissance.

                  • McFlock …
                    18 December 2019 at 4:17 pm

                    Not so much heroic as completely irrefutable and untestable. Which is why every communist says communism has never been tried: the states that called themselves communist were just verious stages of dictatorship of the proletariat that failed to achieve true communism.

                    Great analyses of the flaws of unrestrained capitalism, bunk predictions for "where to from here".

                  • greywarshark …
                    18 December 2019 at 4:34 pm

                    Smith and Hume sounds a bit dry. It's near Christmas – here is a bit of fun with Brexit in mind, Smith and Jones are in the planning stages.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    18 December 2019 at 5:35 pm

                    Ah, clearly someone with insight into human nature. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Hutcheson_(philosopher)

                    "in various parts of his works, he specifies, besides the five external senses commonly recognized :

                    1. consciousness
                    2. the sense of beauty
                    3. a public sense, or sensus communis, "a determination to be pleased with the happiness of others and to be uneasy at their misery"
                    4. the moral sense, or "moral sense of beauty in actions and affections, by which we perceive virtue or vice, in ourselves or others"
                    5. a sense of honour, or praise and blame, "which makes the approbation or gratitude of others the necessary occasion of pleasure, and their dislike, condemnation or resentment of injuries done by us the occasion of that uneasy sensation called shame"
                    6. a sense of the ridiculous.

                    Of these "senses," the "moral sense" plays the most important part in Hutcheson's ethical system."

                    I wonder if #6 refers to a sense of humour or a sense of disbelief. I think #3 refers to empathy. I also wonder why he features #4 & #5 as separate – they seem different aspects of the same ethical sense to me. Reputation, which is integral to politics, is diminished by shame. Morality is communal, whereas ethical conduct is personal.

                    • Stuart Munro. …
                      18 December 2019 at 7:26 pm

                      It's a shame more of his writing isn't readily accessible. The Smith of the Theory of Moral Sentiments owed much to him, and that book was amazingly influential – referenced in the title of Sense And Sensibility and in Burke' s Reflections on the Revolution in France just off the top of my head.

                      I ran across Hutcheson in a book modestly called How the Scots Invented the Modern World and Everything in it.

                    • greywarshark …
                      19 December 2019 at 1:06 pm

                      Stuart Munro lol about the Scots. I note that Hutcheson was one of that lot himself.

                      I'm a bit simple-minded but have a slow but steady consciousness growing. The more I hear and see of them, the more I think that title holds water.

        • Incognito 5.2.1.3
          18 December 2019 at 9:25 pm

          It almost sounds like you are channelling Margaret Thatcher: there’s no such thing as class.

        • Gabby 5.2.1.4
          18 December 2019 at 10:59 pm

          Representative democracy is no longer being practised, I think you mean, franko.

    • Sanctuary 5.3
      18 December 2019 at 2:02 pm

      Danyl is a pompous middle class blowhard whose chief talent consists of effortlessly absorbing right wing talking points then regurgitating them like he just thought them up himself.

      • Dennis Frank 5.3.1
        18 December 2019 at 2:19 pm

        Gosh, it's almost as if he might pontificate. Back when I was commenting on his blog he seemed to be Green. Well, in an urban liberal young person kind of way, I mean. In the old days we called it pale green.

  6. bwaghorn 6
    18 December 2019 at 10:38 am

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/environment/118199873/time-to-hold-individuals-to-account-for-council-effluent-spills-say-unlikely-allies

    Mike Joy and fed farmers singing from the same sheet !!!!

    Time to fine individual councillors and people at the top of waste water outfits.

    Seems right to me.

    • Robert Guyton 6.1
      18 December 2019 at 12:27 pm

      "Allen believed elected councillors should be the individuals held responsible."

      Come the next local body elections, no one put their hand up…

      • bwaghorn 6.1.1
        18 December 2019 at 3:27 pm

        All care ( we wish) no responsibility a RG.

        Must be a cushy ticket.

        Pretty standard behaviour from those on the tax payers dime.

    • Graeme 6.2
      18 December 2019 at 1:23 pm

      Most, like getting on for all, wastewater spills around Queenstown are the result of someone flushing their undies down the loo, wet wipes are pretty good at bunging up the pumps too. Tourists get “Delhi belly” in New Zealand just as much as we do overseas, with the same consequences. And from time in other councils the cause was the same, just less frequent. Where’s the elected responsibility there. You can’t do much about stopping nickers from wrapping around sewage pumps.

    • Dennis Frank 7.1
      18 December 2019 at 12:27 pm

      At 82 years old, you'd think he'd have better things to do. "The Daily Telegraph says police allegedly found child abuse images on his laptop and other electronic devices in his carry-on luggage. NSW Police said they charged an 82-year-old man with six counts relating to possession of child abuse images, and they will next appear in court on 10 February 2020." https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/405755/sir-ron-brierley-charged-with-alleged-possession-of-child-abuse-material-australia-media

      Oh, he does actually have better things to do: "The multi-millionaire has been the director of a number of companies across Australia, New Zealand and the UK – and is a well-known stamp collector." Counting his stamps, and counting his money, apparently doesn't keep him busy enough…

      • greywarshark 7.1.1
        18 December 2019 at 4:46 pm

        'I was just looking Your Honour.' It is a physical example of a sick mind. What about the other people with the same sort of mind, who haven't got images about their person?

        Arresting people for images is bottom of cliff stuff. Make him reveal all his connections, and give him some shock therapy, even if it just is sitting on an electrified whoopee cushion – that would give him some excitement, the old goat.

        And of course fine him 1 million dollars, to be spent on helping people caught in poverty to learn a skill so they wouldn't have to sell their or their children's bodies to make a living.

        I agree with weka.

    • Robert Guyton 7.2
      18 December 2019 at 12:28 pm

      "The multi-millionaire is well-known as a corporate raider "

      Sounds legit…

    • weka 7.3
      18 December 2019 at 1:28 pm

      if found guilty, justice here would be seizing his assets and putting them into a fund to support victims of child abuse over the course of their lives.

      From the RNZ piece,

      They said in August detectives from Eastern Suburbs Police Area Command commenced an investigation into the possession of child abuse material in the local area.

      Is the subtext there that there was a group of people in one geographical area sharing materials? Or making them?

    • dv 7.4
      18 December 2019 at 4:33 pm

      Apparently a tip off.

    • greywarshark 8.1
      18 December 2019 at 12:23 pm

      Looking at Scott GNs link above. This is telling it like it is I think. What do others say?

      These are not privileged white men. They were the ones that emptied your garbage, dealt with your sewerage, built your machines, dug in dangerous mines, grew your food, lived hard but proud lives and had the privilege of fighting and dying on the frontline whenever we called a war.

      On the other side of the divide are the city-based knowledge industry workers who are enjoying all the benefits of free-trade and the free movement of immigrants without having to bother with any of the downsides.

      This divide was something the British Labour Party, with its deep roots in working communities, should have been able to recognise. Its historic project is to defend working people, so it should have pitched its tent with them and sought to address their very real concerns. And at their heart was a scream of rage against imperious, unreachable EU bureaucrats and a fear that the free movement of labour was an existential threat.

      • Dennis Frank 8.1.1
        18 December 2019 at 12:38 pm

        Indeed. "In August last year The Observer trumpeted that “more than 100 Westminster constituencies that voted to leave the EU have now switched to Remain, according to stark new analysis”. “The trend is starkest in the north of England and Wales – Labour heartlands in which Brexit sentiment appears to be changing.”

        Yet the election result proved this analysis wrong. "A couple of paragraphs on we learned from where this world-class analysis had sprung. “The study was jointly commissioned by Best for Britain, which is campaigning against Brexit, and the anti-racist Hope Not Hate group.”

        "This single sentence neatly sums up everything that is wrong with loud, self-basting “progressive” insiders. It was propaganda masquerading as research that should have been punted to the kerb by the Sunday sister of The Guardian, a newspaper which published some brilliant work on the seething anger growing in working class communities in the UK prior to the Brexit vote."

        "The participation of Hope Not Hate in the exercise was a nod towards the suspicion that everyone who voted Leave was also probably a racist, because they railed against EU rules which allow the free movement of labour. Whenever working-class outsiders complain about how an immigration or economic policy blights their lives the response of the enlightened insiders is to brand them either “racist” or “stupid”."

        Leftists calling their electoral support base names aren't really enlightened. Enlightenment doesn't produce abuse. Nor is the abuse progressive. Regressive, actually.

    • Sanctuary 8.2
      18 December 2019 at 2:04 pm

      God every threatened centrist is lining up to hit the pinata.

      • ScottGN 8.2.1
        18 December 2019 at 4:32 pm

        On the mark though eh? All those liberal Remainer elites in London started believing their own spin.

  9. mosa 9
    18 December 2019 at 1:15 pm

    " You showed us a kinder, gentler politics, and stood strong for what is true and right. That’s what they hated you for. But that’s entirely why we stood with you and stand with you still "

    Thank you, Jeremy Corbyn.

    https://www.thecanary.co/opinion/2019/12/13/thank-you-jeremy-corbyn/

  10. Alan 10
    18 December 2019 at 1:42 pm

    He would have fucked the UK economy and significantly reduced the overall standard of living – "kinder, gentler" my arse.

    • aom 10.1
      18 December 2019 at 2:27 pm

      ……says someone who is obviously not an informed economist, like those who came to the contrary conclusion after assessing the numbers.

      • Alan 10.1.1
        18 December 2019 at 2:40 pm

        His own MPs have described his policies as economically illiterate.

        You may not care for my view but when his own people are saying that, well…….

        I think you will find that the vast majority of economists concluded that his policies were a recipe for disaster.

  11. ianmac 11
    18 December 2019 at 3:15 pm

    Report out about the allegations of serious assault within the Labour Party:

    Today we are releasing the findings of Maria Dew’s investigation, which concludes the most serious allegations of sexual assault were not established.

    Some allegations that related to overbearing and aggressive conduct by the respondent were found to be established, but they did not meet the threshold of unlawful bullying.

    That is good news.
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12294999
    Edit “”The investigation also found that [she] and the respondent had been in a consensual personal relationship for some eight months by February 2018.”

    • Avocadonz 11.2
      18 December 2019 at 3:23 pm

      How is this good news?

      • mickysavage 11.2.1
        18 December 2019 at 4:31 pm

        It confirms that the party's view of the matter was correct. I agree it is not good news, it is a tragedy for all concerned. But it shows that National's attacks were despicable.

        • Bearded Git 11.2.1.1
          18 December 2019 at 5:54 pm

          Agreed Micky; Bennett's attacks in particular were disgusting and unfounded.

          Haworth took one for the team.

          • ScottGN 11.2.1.1.1
            18 December 2019 at 6:03 pm

            If Haworth had been doing his job properly Bennett wouldn’t have had any material on which to base her attacks. Thank God we have Claire Szabo running the party now.

    • Fireblade 11.3
      18 December 2019 at 3:55 pm

      But what does Paula Bennett reckon?

      • Anne 11.3.1
        18 December 2019 at 4:07 pm

        I reckon we'll get her reckons on the 6pm news.

        • Adrian 11.3.1.1
          18 December 2019 at 4:50 pm

          Something stinks here. the complainant worked for the Labour Party. Her actions finished two senior LP officials careers, slandered the victim, essentially laid false sexual assault charges, smeared Jacinda Ardern for not firing people on trumped up charges, cost the LP a lot of money and hard won reputation, and lied to investigators and went to whom? Paula Bloody Bennett.

          This is Dirty Politics orchestrated by possibly PB and even people on this site fell for it. It stunk to high heaven right from the start and one of the worst aspects was that those who urged caution and to wait for the facts were pilloried.

          • McFlock 11.3.1.1.1
            18 December 2019 at 4:55 pm

            Well, no, technically their own actions finished those two careers. And the inaction of one of those guys led to the complainant going to Bennett.

            • Adrian 11.3.1.1.1.1
              18 December 2019 at 5:50 pm

              Bullshit, they knew the complaint was false all along. When you start saying it was a mans fault for being the victim of a false sexual assault claim then you on a pretty slippery slope.

              • Psycho Milt …
                18 December 2019 at 6:27 pm

                … a false sexual assault claim …

                The inability of a non-Police investigation to substantiate a claim of sexual assault doesn't make that claim "false." I shouldn't have to explain this because it's glaringly obvious, so why have you made it necessary to explain it?

                • Adrian …
                  18 December 2019 at 7:26 pm

                  I'd believe a Q.C in these circumstances over the Police any day.
                  And as for “inaction” if they had come out saying there was nothing to see here, they would have been crucified by everybody from you to Paula Bennett who has got blood all over her hands. Liars can’t tell when others are lying.

                  [You set a high hurdle with your assertions, especially about the allegations of the complainant being a liar from the outset. This is not a simple he-says-she-says situation, it is complex and sensitive. For some guidance, see Weka’s comment: https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-18-12-2019/#comment-1674402. In the meantime, please tone down your language and provide robust evidence to support your allegations – Incognito]

                  • Psycho Milt …
                    18 December 2019 at 8:32 pm

                    OK, now it's a little clearer why I'm having to explain the obvious. Let's make it really simple for you: the fact a woman can't prove that a sexual assault occurred means exactly that – she can't prove it happened. We as non-participants can't be certain it happened or didn't happen.

                    And that includes you. You can't be sure whether it happened or not either. So lay off the "false sexual assault claim" bullshit, it's libelous and I'm surprised the moderators let you away with it.

                  • Incognito …
                    18 December 2019 at 9:51 pm

                    See my Moderation note @ 7:26 PM.

            • ianmac 11.3.1.1.1.2
              18 December 2019 at 6:30 pm

              But McFlock, there was no support for the complaint. It didn't happen. So what was the inaction of those guys?

              • ScottGN …
                18 December 2019 at 6:42 pm

                The ‘inaction of those guys’ was allowing the situation to deteriorate to the point where Ardern had to spend a week and precious political capital mopping up after after the hapless party admins. Have you forgotten the way some in the Press Gallery were openly suggesting she was lying about what she knew? And Garner et al speculating that she might have to resign over it? If the party had been doing its job properly things would never have got to that point.

              • McFlock …
                18 December 2019 at 10:09 pm

                They did nothing about his bullying soz “aggressive and overbearing” conduct .

                They failed to properly investigate the complaint.

                They failed to formally document the process they followed when the complaint was made.

                They failed to properly document communications with the complainant, leading to the farce of trying to individually prove a negative.

                They failed to properly acknowledge the communications they did receive, which would have led to a clear conclusion to the email discussion.

                Most importantly: they failed to learn from the Young Labour incident.

  12. McFlock 12
    18 December 2019 at 3:46 pm

    lol and some people think I'm a government apologist: I'd have to pull some serious overtime to get this bad…

    You would think John Campbell is trying to undermine the Government with his sudden interest in poverty, as I didn't see it in the last decade

    https://twitter.com/gingerandmilo/status/1206781437657014272

  14. Paaparakauta 14
    19 December 2019 at 11:48 am

    Have a nice day "Incognito". What happened to lprent ?

  15. Eco maori 15
    20 December 2019 at 8:36 am

    Kia Ora Breakfast.

    I think some people will back the law of the land from the other side.

    A $50 carbon tax is a great start for Aotearoa moving to a carbon neutral society.

    Happy Christmas to you all.

    Ka kite Ano

  16. Eco maori 16
    20 December 2019 at 6:27 pm

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    Condolences to the 2 fire fighter whanau who were lost to the Australian Bush fires.

    Flooding in Peru that is going to be the new norm.

    With all the air travelers numbers boosting the faster we get electric planes the better.
    I have heard that spray novavane was bad stuff let’s ban the crap

    Ka kite Ano

  17. Eco maori 17
    20 December 2019 at 6:51 pm

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    Play grounds for disabled tamariki is cool my mokopuna aroha the playgrounds.

    Cool that Taramaki Makaru marae helping distributors of Kai donated for the poor people.

    Yes some want to highlight the bad stuff about Maori and not talk about the positive things Awsome. the crossfit seen is growing fast my tama are into that.

    Great Waiata.

    Ka kite Ano.

    • Eco maori 17.1
      21 December 2019 at 4:20 pm

      We need more of our Rangatahi to run for Council some of these councilors have been on the council for many decades. I also think more Tangata Whenua O Aotearoa should run for Council we understand that with out a good environment we will not have good lives. These neanderthal are stuck in the past take there votes a push them out.

  18. Eco maori 18
    21 December 2019 at 4:11 pm

    Tairawhiti Youth Environment group members Haylee Law and Sumita Singh presented the petition to councillors with a plea for them to respect the wishes of the 1200 people who had signed it.

    There were tears in the Gisborne council chambers on Thursday morning as councillors stopped short of declaring a climate emergency despite an impassioned plea from local school students.

    The chambers were packed with about 40 members of the public – young and old – as the Tairawhiti Youth Environment group delivered a petition calling for the council to make a climate emergency declaration following its decision in June not to do so.

    "It's just tragic," said one man as he stormed out of the chambers while councillors debated the relevance to Tairawhiti of declaring a climate emergency.

    "I can't listen to this stuff any more," he said. Ka kite Ano link below

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/local-democracy-reporting/118374657/climate-plea-students-vow-to-fight-councils-refusal-to-declare-emergency

  19. Eco maori 19
    21 December 2019 at 6:27 pm

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    That's a good invention a device that continuing monitoring glucose levels for people with diabetes 1/3 the cost of other devices.

    Awsome the Dutch government has been sued into lowering their greenhouse gas emissions times are changing.

    That's is cool a house boat built in Auckland %25 of the cost one on whenua.

    Ka kite Ano.

  20. Eco maori 20
    21 December 2019 at 6:49 pm

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    Happy Christmas Whanau.

    Remember the system is bent keep out of trouble and go to Church.

    Ka kite Ano.

  22. Eco maori 22
    22 December 2019 at 6:28 pm

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    You have to respect Tangaroa and make sure you Waka is safe.

    Let's hope not to much of that stuff leaks out of Wellington.

    That's a dumb law.

    I have just seen The Mclarn movie. It's the new age electric cars it's good to see Mclarn is starting
    to building electric cars.

    Ka kite Ano

  23. Eco maori 23
    22 December 2019 at 6:52 pm

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    Kai Moana is very expensive now days I will have to go to the whare whenua and have a dive to get a good Kai.

    I say that making Te reo composery for Māori students is needed to stop Te reo from being lost to our books.

    Ka kite Ano.