Open mike 20/03/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, March 20th, 2022 - 315 comments
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315 comments on “Open mike 20/03/2022 ”

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  1. pat 1
    20 March 2022 at 6:18 am

    Back to the future?……the ghost of the Muldoon Government appears.

    "The IEA laid out a series of measures it said would help reduce global demand, currently close to 100m bpd, helping to ease sky-high oil prices hurting consumers and reduce reliance on Kremlin-controlled resources.

    Immediate steps it recommended including reduced speed limits, car-free Sundays and cheaper public transport."

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/mar/18/car-free-sundays-iea-sets-out-10-point-plan-to-reduce-global-oil-demand

    • Anne 1.1
      20 March 2022 at 11:01 am

      It apparently didn't work out too well in 1979. I don't recall any major problem with carless days but my memory of the period is faint:

      https://nzhistory.govt.nz/carless-days-introduced

      Mind you I don't think there was any alternative cheap transport on offer.

      • Ad 1.1.1
        20 March 2022 at 12:24 pm

        There was CNG tanks fitted inside your car.

        Also there was still pretty good public transport through the trolley buses that had taken over from trams, and train use was still OK in the Wellington region.

      • pat 1.1.2
        20 March 2022 at 7:18 pm

        No , it wasnt a roaring success…perhaps someone should tell the IEA

  2. aom 2
    20 March 2022 at 7:40 am

    Rank hypocrisy 101: Where were Major and Brown when Blair and Bush did worse numbers in the Middle East and why haven't they put an addenda to their call, to include their own war criminals?(https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/19/gordon-brown-john-major-back-nuremberg-style-tribunal-vladimir-putin)

    • Byd0nz 2.1
      20 March 2022 at 8:20 am

      Rank hypocrisy is indeed the way to describe it. In fact one could say that about the Western political system led and lied by the US, all in denial of the reality of the lead up to the Ukraine situation that could have been avoided had the UN listened and debated Russian concerns about security issues and the ongoing aggressive nature of NATO expansion.

      • Adrian Thornton 2.1.1
        20 March 2022 at 8:40 am

        @Byd0nz..+1…but just as we witnessed during Russiagate..there is absolutely no debate or counter narrative allowed on any MSM when they are pushing their own conspiracy theories or agenda…this pretty much encapsulates all MSM today. including The Guardian, RNZ and all so called 'Liberal' media…..

        • aj 2.1.1.1
          20 March 2022 at 11:21 am

          Prof Andrew MacLeod talks about the 'six great human transitions' towards the end of this good discussion. Start around minute 42, although the whole video is interesting, with a good range of speakers discussing the prospect of nuclear war.

    • Blazer 2.2
      20 March 2022 at 9:55 am

      Blair is unrepentant….he said, if he had the chance to do it all…again'…he would.

  3. Adrian Thornton 3
    20 March 2022 at 8:31 am

    US propaganda penetrates deeply into US pop culture….as it always has….

    Sacha Baron Cohen And The CIA

    • DB Brown 3.1
      20 March 2022 at 9:32 am

      Hollywood spitting out pro-American nonsense is news to no one.

      "Cohen worked with [US] to sell America's wars"

      That's deeply ridiculous. The interviewer looks like she's sucked a lemon at Cohen's name being mentioned. The guy being interviewed is clearly stretching and talking rubbish.

    • Shanreagh 4.1
      20 March 2022 at 11:51 am

      This is brilliant and as I pointed in another forum it validates my observation and anecdote….ha ha.

      'Woke' is now so confused as a word that anyone who uses it now is not caring that it may be misunderstood and in doing so falls into the category of 'fuckhead' in my view.

      • Muttonbird 4.1.1
        20 March 2022 at 12:42 pm

        I don't think the people who use it as a pejorative are somehow innocent or misunderstood.

        These are political people and know exactly what it means in the way they are using it.

        They're pushing back against progressive redress of injustice particularly for race and gender minorities and so it kinda makes those people a bit racist and anti-trans.

        It's horrible when supposed self-identifying lefties deliberately use the term woke in their stale arguments.

        • Nic the NZer 4.1.1.1
          20 March 2022 at 1:20 pm

          Which are your preferred pejoratives?

          • Muttonbird 4.1.1.1.1
            20 March 2022 at 1:24 pm

            Not allowed to say them here. Woke is allowed though.

            • Shanreagh 4.1.1.1.1.1
              20 March 2022 at 3:56 pm

              The best one I have seen recently is casserole instead of ass****. it has the benefit of being able to be used across the board.,,no gradations of shock etc. They're a 'casserole' and that is that

              'Twit' I reserve for special people like Jordan Patterson.

              Don't use woke or gaslight as they seem to have a slippy/slimy/slidy meaning that is not precise enough for me.

              Mind you I rarely swear on line or in real life.

        • Adrian Thornton 4.1.1.2
          20 March 2022 at 1:32 pm

          "They're pushing back against progressive redress of injustice particularly for race and gender minorities and so it kinda makes those people a bit racist and anti-trans"
          I think that is a bit of a blanket statement….many of those people who push back against the concept/meaning of 'Woke' as it perceived by most people today are thinking more about the way it has/is been used to shut down and often deplatform people who have ideas and beliefs outside the Liberal norm….

          The Origin Of Woke: How The Death Of Woke Led To The Birth Of Cancel Culture
          https://www.okayplayer.com/culture/woke-cancel-culture-history-meaning.html

          "To be woke is a fashionable identity. Like most creations derived from Black culture, woke was commodified and diluted of its essence. Anyone or anything can be woke: A brand, company, person. In capitalism’s possession, woke is more about performative grandstanding than anything else."

          …while others could be thinking about the way 'Woke' has been co-opted by cynical corporations and even the CIA no less to white wash their shitty public image….

          The smokescreen that hides businesses’ real values
          https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/woke-inc-by-vivek-ramaswamy-extract-two-2lss958g3

          Big Corporations Now Deploying Woke Ideology the Way Intelligence Agencies Do: As a Disguise
          https://greenwald.substack.com/p/big-corporations-now-deploying-woke?s=r

          • arkie 4.1.1.2.1
            20 March 2022 at 8:06 pm

            Capitalism has a long history of recuperating radical politics, commodifying rebellion, converting revolutionaries in harmless icons. If we want a real alternative it has to be for everybody:

            "We gotta drop the woke shit to be class conscious" 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩

            nahh that's just oppression with a higher minimum wage and maybe some M4a, my guy

            You have to start with the concerns of the least powerful first. That's not being woke, that's strategy.

            https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1504212865737236492.html

            • Adrian Thornton 4.1.1.2.1.1
              20 March 2022 at 8:35 pm

              It is all about class, always has been and probably always will be (well at least in my life time it will be I think)..I have often thought that one of the greatest victories Liberal Capitalism has achieved is making the working poor, poor and disenfranchised people not identify as a class.

              • arkie …
                20 March 2022 at 9:30 pm

                If you read the thread:

                If you start with the people who need the least, you lose them once they get what they want.

                We have to understand how power works, especially under capitalism.

                Look back at history. Every time we get some apparent gains they are mostly applied to people whose identity fits the overculture, and then what? We lose them as allies, and even worse they become actively antagonistic to our struggles.

                If a poor, disabled Black immigrant transwoman who is not Christian can live well, the rest of are set by default (structrally speaking ofc). All these systems work together at all times – you can't pick & choose who gets their needs met starting from the top down.

                We can't expect to undermine the systemic disenfranchisement of the working class without recognising that there are some inequities that predate capitalism; Sexism, imperialism. colonisation, racism and enslavement have histories and ramifications that still shape our world and it is radical and necessary to redress these issues first. Liberal capitalism wouldn't be winning when we do so.

                • Adrian Thornton …
                  20 March 2022 at 10:51 pm

                  OK…but we have tried, with the Feminist movement, to redress sexism (largely I would argue, without addressing the class component embedded within most sexism at the same time) for example..but on closer examination, how has that actually worked out for working class and poor woman, black/brown/yellow or white?

                  This is a pretty good discussion on this subject…if you get time..

                  Nancy Fraser talks to Sasha Lilley about Feminism and Neoliberalism
                  https://kpfa.org/episode/58145/

    • Poission 4.2
      20 March 2022 at 1:35 pm

      Godwin is a lawyer,whenever unsubstantiated statements of facts arise,burdens of proof need to be shown or the idea needs to be strangled in the cot, as Huxley succinctly said.

      But further, it is the business of criticism not only to keep watch over the vagaries of philosophy, but to do the duty of police in the whole world of thought. Wherever it espies sophistry or superstition they are to be bidden to stand; nay, they are to be followed to their very dens and there apprehended and exterminated, as Othello smothered Desdemona, "else she'll betray more men."

  5. Blazer 5
    20 March 2022 at 9:25 am

    The takeover of Z Energy by Ampol is a big negative for our country.

    The assets of Shell and Caltex NZ were bought by Infratil and the NZ Superfund about 10 years ago.

    Z was listed on the NZX and with a high dividend policy traded around the $6 to $7 mark for years.

    It has roughly 50% of retail petrol sales.

    Increasing competition by self service petrol outlets was one reason in it's declining earnings/profits.

    A growing competitor was Gull Oil owned by Ampol who is now taking over Z.

    Ampol must divest itself re Gull Oil to maintain competition in the marketplace.

    The Commerce Commission has approved the takeover.One must wonder why.

    Bill English said NZ runs an 'open economy'-maybe that is an invitation to foreign entities to bring a fillet knife and…help yourself.

    One of the conditions was that Marsden Pt is closed.

    Z has a pipeline from Marsden to Wiri to supply refined petrol .

    So jobs will be lost at the refinery and business enterprises associated with it.

    -it seems that Ampol will convert a number of Z locations to self service outlets.(this is their current model)=more jobs lost.

    -Z will delist from the NZX …a bourse that struggles to remain relevant.

    -NZ will now have no large scale refining capacity,and be totally reliant on imported petrol.

    -all the earnings/profits of Z will now be lost to overseas interests.

    Just another…day in NZ4SALE !

    • Ad 5.1
      20 March 2022 at 12:22 pm

      Where's the source for the claim that the Ampol Z takeover couldn't proceed until Marsden Point was closed?

    • Mike the Lefty 5.2
      20 March 2022 at 2:15 pm

      "The Commerce Commission has approved the takeover. One must wonder why".

      The Commerce Commission is supposed to look after the interests of New Zealand consumer, so it claims.

      But when it comes to who owns what in the fuel retailing industry they appear to be more concerned with the interests of the multi-nationals.

      The CC allowed the sale of the (then) independent Challenge to Caltex in the 1990s.

  6. Belladonna 6
    20 March 2022 at 9:32 am

    Surprised to see that the Government has dropped MIQ requirements for unvaccinated Kiwis and those with valid visas.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/government-drops-miq-requirement-for-unvaccinated-kiwi-travellers/C7XR7T65AGXVL25UOGAPZVDLLQ/?c_id=1&objectid=12512059&ref=rss

    Really surprised to see this.

    There can't be a huge number of people with valid reasons to not have vaccination, flying into NZ; and, regardless of their reasons, they have a much higher risk of catching Covid in transit, spreading it once here (and also being really sick and adding to the load on hospitals).
    I would have thought that it was a sensible precaution to retain – even after deciding that vaccinated people flying in are not a significant additional risk (with Omicron so widespread)

    The lack of publicity around this (apparent from the framing in the news article) and the fact that the decision was published and came into effect on the same day – also looks …. odd. Especially with the (praiseworthy) determination from Ardern to signal changes to Covid restrictions and quarantine rules, well in advance

    • Shanreagh 6.1
      20 March 2022 at 11:57 am

      Apparently they still have to test & report using the RATs they are given on arrival. My thought is that they are so unconcerned about others by their stance that they will more than likely fail to do this or report.

      If they have a valid exemption then not a problem.

      Bad move. They should still stay somewhere until it is independently verified that they are Covid free.

  7. Peter 7
    20 March 2022 at 10:05 am

    I enjoyed reading the perspectives in the Herald "Parliament protesters speak about their experience."

    A Taranaki midwife said, "… yes there were moments of outrage, anger and the odd spat – and those people had the opportunity for others to come around them, and often de-escalate and talk and hug.

    "I saw more mental health improvement in 23 days of that village than I've seen in a career of midwifery."

    I wonder if when the talking and hugging was done the mental health issues had de-escalated to the extent that the Government radiation weapons had disappeared, vaccinations weren't turning people's blood black, Covid wasn't the plot of a cabal to take over the world. And residents no longer believed and had more trust in online lunatics anywhere than any authorities in New Zealand.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-omicron-parliament-protesters-speak-about-their-experience/T4T45F7K2FY3X6H2M6KMGBKTTY/

    • Anne 7.1
      20 March 2022 at 11:53 am

      What a one eyed bunch of distorted claims:

      A few more 'perceptions' form the article:

      But the final, violent hours of the protest were the fault of the police, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern, and "thugs" showing up who he believed weren't connected to the original protest – because they were wearing masks, which protesters did not.

      They were breaking the law right? Telling lies (even if they were idiot enough to believe them) and wallowing in insane conspiracy theories and they expected the police to sit on their chuffs and do nothing about it? They were responsible for their own behaviour or supporting the behaviour of fellow travellers – nobody else.

      The police were starting to come down and lobbing tear gas into groups of people, including children and old people.

      "This isn't New Zealand. The fact I had to assist an elderly woman away from that is disgusting and shocking, and that's the stuff that nobody really got to see that day."

      The police did not use tear gas on the crowds. But they did use pepper spray in a handful of dangerous and violent circumstances to protect themselves and others around them.

      Jacinda Ardern also shared some blame for not speaking with protesters – and it was a "cop-out" for the Prime Minister to cite threats of violence for her decision.

      It is never going to be officially confirmed (these things never are for obvious reasons) but it is clear the prime minister was told by security officials she must not face that crowd under any circumstance. Her life could easily have been in danger. It only takes one madman or madwoman in that crowd to take aim at her with a gun. There were even overt warnings of assassination attempts.

      "The media and the Prime Minister chose to put all the focus on what, probably, 1 per cent of the population in there, and ignore the 99 per cent.

      That protestor was talking through such a large hole in his head that its not really worth a comment.

      • Peter 7.1.1
        20 March 2022 at 1:49 pm

        It's good the perspectives of the protestors are heard.

        I'm sure there are some protestors who think there should have been no police in the area at all, all the way along, unless some 'normal' police business came up.

        I'm sure there are some protestors who think ordinary non-protesting citizens in the area, needing to be in the area should have simply tolerated the behaviour directed their way.

        I'm sure there are some protestors who were surrounded by 'freedom' banners who thought it reasonable that non-protestors should have been threatened for exercising their freedom to simply be in the area.

        There being vile, evil, corrupt, reprehensible, abominable behaviour in a particular population doesn't mean that everyone in that population is like that. It does mean that the whole population can't be described as sweet, loving, humane, altruistic and decent.

        Painting the whole protest group as sweet, loving, humane, altruistic and decent is not depicting reality.

  8. Bearded Git 8
    20 March 2022 at 10:54 am

    The French have minutes ago just won a 6-Nations grand slam. They will be a force in next year's World Cup.

    • Blazer 8.1
      20 March 2022 at 1:46 pm

      They certainly deserve to win a WC…they were robbed' in…one.wink

    • Binders full of women 8.2
      20 March 2022 at 2:26 pm

      They are such a well oiled machine (with flair) that they must be favourites to win RWC. Coming into this morning's game with Eng, France had score 17 tries in the other 4 preceding 6-nations games..England had score THREE tries in 4 games. How was that last Italian try?!?!?

  9. Anker 9
    20 March 2022 at 10:57 am

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/128069637/faces-of-a-protest-who-were-the-250-kiwis-arrested-at-the-parliament-occupation

    interesting to read about a few of the inviduals who were arrested on the final day of the protest at Parliament. Michael Woods “river of filth”.

    One a builder from Otaki, who had tried to have the local school remove wifi. He deserves some compassion when you hear his 11 year old son had died of a brain tumour.

    Just to reiterate I don’t agree with the protesters opinions. But from their point of view their concerns were genuine and probably understandable when you dig deep to hear their stories. Shame on Michael Woods and Trevor Mallard

    • Incognito 9.1
      20 March 2022 at 11:22 am

      Before you start your finger-wagging and shaming Minister Michael Wood [the name is Wood, not Woods] you may want to actually read what he said in the House. You know, for nuance and context and a generally better understanding of where he was coming from and what he was trying to say. For example, this relevant section:

      I want to talk about something else very serious in this respect. I've been concerned by some of the drifting rhetoric I've heard from members opposite in this House about the events in the occupation that we see out the front. The words I say now I say with some precision and I say really carefully, because I think we need to take great care with this. Out the front of this place, there are people who I think we all feel for. There are some people who are confused, there are some people who are scared, there are some people who have been manipulated by an avalanche of misinformation. There are some people who have been hurt over the past couple of years and they're lashing out. We feel for those people. But underneath all of that, there is a river of filth. There is a river of violence and menace. There is a river of anti-Semitism. There is a river of islamophobia. There is a river of threats to people who work in this place and our staff. Those are things that we should not in any way be condoning, things that we should be apologists for, things that we should be overlooking with the rhetoric that it's all just good people and maybe we should talk about it and maybe we should put the mandates up for negotiation. I would say that there is a river of genuine fascism in parts of the event that we see out the front of this Parliament today. I just urge colleagues in this House—decent and honourable members of the centre-right parliamentary parties in this Parliament—that a lot is actually on them to not give succour and comfort to an emergent and dangerous far right movement. I just ask those members to reflect upon that.

      https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/combined/HansDeb_20220216_20220216_16

      • Anker 9.1.1
        20 March 2022 at 11:37 am

        Incognito I heard what Wood said in the house.

        "The river of filth" is what stuck and it added to a th perception that Labour were treating these people with contempt. Do you think when protesters heard Wood speaking they thought of well, he's just referred to us as a river of filth, but he did say we had suffered too etc, etc. Wood smeared these people. He didn't say "elements in this protest are concerning because of anti semetic etc ideas". When you use the term river of filth about a group of people that is all inclusive.

        Woods saying "people we all feel for". ……nothing in the Govts actions showed that. They treated those people, citizens of NZ with contempt. and they did it because they didn’t want to face that they had brought in laws that had significantly effected these people’s lives. That’s not to say I disagree with the Govt’s laws over Covid, not at all. But at least have the decency to front up and listen to the people who lives your laws have effected.

        And I reserve the right to point the (symbolic) finger at politicians I are unhappy with.

        • Incognito 9.1.1.1
          20 March 2022 at 11:54 am

          When you paint everything and everybody with the same brush there are usually only two colours. In my view, Wood did not do that and referred twice to “rhetoric”, which is exactly the point that you seem to be missing.

          I disagree with your interpretation and therefore with your misguided finger-pointing and finger-wagging.

          • Shanreagh 9.1.1.1.1
            20 March 2022 at 12:55 pm

            Michael Wood's speech deserves to be read without blinkers and without any pre-conceived ideas or after match chat.

            "Out the front of this place, there are people who I think we all feel for.

            There are some people who

            • are confused, there are some people who are
            • are scared, there are some people who
            • have been manipulated by an avalanche of misinformation.
            • have been hurt over the past couple of years and they're lashing out.

            We feel for those people.

            But underneath all of that, there is a river of filth.

            • There is a river of violence and menace.
            • There is a river of anti-Semitism.
            • There is a river of islamophobia.
            • There is a river of threats to people who work in this place and our staff.

            Those are things that

            • we should not in any way be condoning,
            • we should (not) be apologists for,
            • we should (not) be overlooking with the rhetoric 'that it's all just good people' and 'maybe we should talk about it 'and 'maybe we should put the mandates up for negotiation'.

            I would say that there is a river of genuine fascism in parts of the event that we see out the front of this Parliament today."

            To that I would have added a 'river of mysogyny'

            It is such a strong and truthful speech that clearly sets out what we now know to be true…..it was all of these bad things, there were possibly good people who were misled, and got in too deep.

            Hopefully all these 'good people' had left by the time the protest was finished but I suspect not. Constant alt rt messaging from the constant public speakers with 'info' from Counterspin would have kept some there who may on later reflection think, hopefully, 'what the hell was I a part of?'

            The fact that the protest included all the far right nasties Alp, Arps, De Ment, Action Zelandia etc etc are the river of violence and menace, of anti-Semitism, islamophobia.

            Reading the link does not actually convince me really that these are/were fine strong people who believed something that was an equally valid view to believe.

            Rather it makes me so sad that our systems have let us down so much that we have a group that is unable to make sense of what is going on and to make sense of it has to have recourse to either medical and health charlatans or far right extremists.

            We as a nation have let ourselves down by not enabling critical thinking.

            Thankfully we are highly vaccinated as a population but nobody deserves to die or be hospitalised by an illness that was either preventable or able to be mitigated by a simple vaccine (now two types are available)

            • Shanreagh 9.1.1.1.1.1
              20 March 2022 at 1:21 pm

              Thankfully we are highly vaccinated as a population but nobody deserves to die or be hospitalised by an illness that was either preventable or able to be mitigated by a simple vaccine (now two types are available)

              This is a stat that appears in the daily MOH reports

              [unlinked quote deleted]

              • weka …
                20 March 2022 at 2:13 pm

                [unlinked quote deleted]

                I will just keep doing this until it sinks in: you have to link if you are copy and pasting. Every time.

              • weka …
                20 March 2022 at 2:20 pm

                Looking at how many times I've had to delete unlinked quotes from you, and how many times I've explained this to you, I'm wondering why next time I shouldn't just delete the whole comment. Because from my perspective it looks like blatant disregard and disrespect for moderation and moderators.

            • Peter 9.1.1.1.1.2
              20 March 2022 at 1:55 pm

              It makes yOU sad that our systems have let us down so much that we have a group that is unable to make sense of what is going on.

              It makes me sad that a person having considered a situation and setting out his views, can't use an expression like "river of filth" and have it subverted in a lowest common denominator soundbite headline as being the sum of his thoughts.

              • Shanreagh …
                20 March 2022 at 10:10 pm

                It makes me sad that a person having considered a situation and setting out his views, can't use an expression like "river of filth" and have it subverted in a lowest common denominator soundbite headline as being the sum of his thoughts.

                Yes I agree.

                I also feel that Michael Wood's speech was vastly misunderstood/underrated as I think it was Churchillian in his words and cadences.

                Hopefully as people realise what happened there and who was there, with pictures of hangings etc the more we will realise that perhaps they were not, and possibly never were, the happy little campers……

                No matter how we got to misunderstand this speech/whole vaccination business, whether by poor education such as not being work out when groups are scamming your mind, or by not being able to read a sentence without it being sound bited, the point is that it is sad.

                Sad is the lightest weight word to describe it.

          • Anker 9.1.1.1.2
            20 March 2022 at 2:28 pm

            https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-response-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-interview-on-what-government-got-right-and-wrong/PKKLCAAF6DCTUCH3AIRIP4W6TU/

            Ardern saying she wishes they could have taken more people with them in the latter stages of the pandemic.
            “I do wish that we could have come through these latter stages … bringing more people with us.”
            Possibly, just possibly she is referring to the protesters. Of course this is an assumption on my behalf.

            • Shanreagh 9.1.1.1.2.1
              20 March 2022 at 4:24 pm

              No I think she is referring to the latent Moaning Minnies who pop out all the time when there is a move to do anything eg Nats, tourist operators, business heads……When all these people get air time, as they do, bad news sells papers it does seem as though everyone is agin.

              No govt would have had a chance with the ant vaxx brigade. The level of nuttiness is so high and influenced by monied and well resourced donors

              I think the general public have just got tired of Covid. I am sure that at times during both world wars there was a feeling of tiredness and is it all worth it, and why are people moaning. Another day/week/month dawns and we find it is not as bad as what others would have us believe.

              Looking back I believe we gave far too much air time to anti vaxxers, the militant, malignant ones…..perhaps pressing the big ignore button may have been better rather than trying to understand/accommodate their views etc etc.

              On the other hand though we need to be in touch with our fellows and not let them go down rabbit holes and knowing what we do about them now does mean we need to smarten up our education and our links to overseas views……so our education means we can discern when rubbish is rubbish.

              Not meaning the genuine ones who could not be vaccinated etc.

              But of course media would not have allowed that as it was something to bash the govt with.

              • Anne …
                20 March 2022 at 4:49 pm

                Looking back I believe we gave far too much air time to anti vaxxers, the militant, malignant ones…..perhaps pressing the big ignore button may have been better rather than trying to understand/accommodate their views etc etc.

                I totally agree with the first part. They were given far too much air time given the tiny percentage of the population involved and their increasingly nutty notions. It became obvious most of them were beyond rehabilitation.

                The same thing happened over Climate Change. The deniers were given publicity out of all proportion to the numbers involved, They took the uninformed and the gullible along with them and action against CC was delayed by decades. You don't hear from them now but its too late.

                And therein lies the problem. If we were to ignore the anti-Covid nutbars altogether we run the risk of many more people disappearing down rabbit holes with them. The end result could be disastrous.

                In this case, I think the fault lies with social media and the proliferation of disinformation. The problem must be tackled promptly and on a world wide scale – even if it does mean a reduction in so-called freedom of speech.

                In my book, freedom of speech does not encompass the growth of hate speech, lies, disinformation that can – and has – lead to chaos and war.

                • Shanreagh …
                  20 March 2022 at 10:13 pm

                  In this case, I think the fault lies with social media and the proliferation of disinformation. The problem must be tackled promptly and on a world wide scale – even if it does mean a reduction in so-called freedom of speech.

                  Perhaps we need a new accord with some teeth……I think PM has mentioned looking at social media.

        • Anne 9.1.1.2
          20 March 2022 at 12:15 pm

          But at least have the decency to front up and listen to the people who lives your laws have effected.

          But everybody's lives were affected by those laws. Most of us accepted them as inevitable in the circumstances as indeed they were. A medical expert estimation of at least 5000 lives were saved due to those laws – something naysayers always avoid responding to. Those who chose a kind of action or inaction due to misplaced beliefs can't be expected to be treated any differently to the rest of us.

          • Shanreagh 9.1.1.2.1
            20 March 2022 at 1:08 pm

            Good points. I know think what a dreadful set of statistics we would have had for NZ had the Nats been in and elevated these anti vaxxers to worthy of being listened to. With the Nats 'let er rip' and the lack of pushback to anti vaxx views we could have been in a dire situation.

            • Anker 9.1.1.2.1.1
              20 March 2022 at 1:42 pm

              Shanreagh as I said I completely support the Govt's Covid response.

              • Shanreagh …
                20 March 2022 at 4:29 pm

                Yes I know – I was agreeing with Anne about the 5000 lives and the difference between responses Nat/Lab.

        • Foreign waka 9.1.1.3
          20 March 2022 at 1:27 pm

          History will judge by what actions were employed and not rhetoric. I personally was in awe about the way police worked their way through the many pitfalls that could made them out as a racist, fascist bunch themselves. Andrew Coster mastered absolutely the way of defence without weapons. Police has not had one bad press statement in all that, are perceived as neutral still and not behove to any party or person with their hateful spite. This is the only positive I have seen in all that, the neutrality of our police force. Respect. Opposite Mr. Mallard having music and vaccination campaigns run loudly across the protesters settling for the night to apparently wear them down. I am completely convinced that if a parliamentarian would have jumped the shadow of self importance and talked to any of those who loudly stood at the front, it would have at very least given the impression of care for ALL citizen instead of putting a splint in the sides of NZlanders to divide and conquer. It invited the unsavoury to join. But alas, this crisis wasn't worth any "kindness" as it is in the same way now with inflation hitting hard. Its not a crisis for those in power, not a worry.
          Yes, history will tell the story of a promise that was corrupted by power.

          • Anker 9.1.1.3.1
            20 March 2022 at 1:41 pm

            Oh come on Shanreagh. Nobody died in that protest. No one was seriously injured that i know of.

            They could have organised a meeting with them with good security. That's the sort of meeting I was meaning

            • Shanreagh 9.1.1.3.1.1
              20 March 2022 at 4:37 pm

              It would have achieved nothing. They were there illegally…..until that important prerequisite to a meeting/dialogue been met (to leave) there was no possibility of a meeting. They had no leaders, purposely. They were never going to leave in advance of a meeting.

              As for 'oh come on' 51 people lost their lives 3 years ago when the unimaginable happened

          • Anker 9.1.1.3.2
            20 March 2022 at 1:43 pm

            Agree Foreign Waka about Andrew Coster and the police.

        • Shanreagh 9.1.1.4
          20 March 2022 at 1:28 pm

          But at least have the decency to front up and listen to the people who lives your laws have effected.

          I actually don't think we needed our PM or anyone else to run the risk of dying for.

          There were some pretty unhinged people at the protest egged on by those for whom an easy assassination would have been neither here nor there. There are people and groups still adding those who they do not like to various hit lists around the country.

          I think the Police let the protest run just long enough for many to get over their possible sympathy for the group by letting them show their true colours. I actually don't have a great deal of sympathy for people who cannot see when they have been taken over and are being used by malcontents. Threats of hangings etc do not really do it for me as a legitimate form of protest.

          • Foreign waka 9.1.1.4.1
            20 March 2022 at 3:55 pm

            If you would have watched this from the start, you would have seen the window of opportunity. But our politicians are so full of know it all and self importance that the squandered the one possibility to have this dying down before it escalated. This is a fact, not a party line.
            And by the way, democracy is not an easy road that ponders to the in crowd like in the 5th grade. It is a way of life that is sometimes painful, riddled with disagreements and full with passion. But we should never forget that everybody has the same right to express what their opinion is and in this case especially as it directly impacting a persons life. Democracy is not easy, it has to be won and by this it mostly means within every person themselves rather than berating others. The right to protest is enshrined and who says that it means that a protest is crowd singing hymns?

            • Shanreagh 9.1.1.4.1.1
              20 March 2022 at 4:43 pm

              5th grade?

              I support the right to protest. I do not support deliberate and continued law breaking eg cars left for three weeks in the streets, children being accosted for wearing masks……etc

              If you leave room for the ne'er do wells and malcontents like Alp, Arps etc you really have lost control of what might happen. The fact that it ended the way it did was quite predictable with these folk involved.

              • Foreign waka …
                20 March 2022 at 6:39 pm

                Those law breakers came aboard a lot later what I talk about is the action in the first 2 days. Law breakers will and should be prosecuted, I think some 250 were arrested. The police has done an outstanding job weighing up applying force against the damage escalation.

        • Sanctuary 9.1.1.5
          20 March 2022 at 1:35 pm

          Plenty of people do and think dumb sh*t as a result of life tragedies, but their systematic and organised law breaking usually don't get sympthetic coverage in the press.

          • Anker 9.1.1.5.1
            20 March 2022 at 1:38 pm

            Sanctuary, No I wasn't thinking they should have sympathy for breaking the law.

      • weka 9.1.2
        20 March 2022 at 2:09 pm

        it's a really good speech, except for the use of "river of filth". He could just have left that out, and said everything else, and his point would have been made better. As it is, "river of filth" undermines the whole thing. No politician should ever use that term when referring to people (he didn't) or beliefs (he did). It’s a term that dehumanises, and we can parse it from our distance however we like, but it’s still just a loaded term that will be taken to heart.

        Even if he had been talking only about actual fascists (he wasn't), the term "river of filth" was always going to be parsed to include the people that were there no matter what they think. It's just one of those phrases.

        It reminds me Clinton's deplorables. It's a term that sticks and rebounds irrespective of intent of the original user. I can say with a lot of certainty that many of the people who were at the protest or supported it will hear the phrase and think it applies to them. And they will react accordingly.

        Woods chose it with great precision, it was a mistake, unless he actually doesn't care how it will be received (in which case he's proved them right).

        Really unfortunate, because his actual point was very well made.

        • Anker 9.1.2.1
          20 March 2022 at 2:22 pm

          Agree Weka, it is a term that sticks and rebounds.

        • Incognito 9.1.2.2
          20 March 2022 at 2:39 pm

          Wood was not referring to people, he was referring to ‘misconceptions’ (for want of a better word), phobias, and ‘misguided ideologies’ (e.g. fascism) held by some (fortunately, very few) people, for all sorts of reasons, and to rivers of violence, menace, and threats. This distinction might be subtle, but it is a crucial one, in my view, and makes all the difference between actual meaning and the resulting meme, created by others. I think it was a risky metaphor and it took guts to use it in order to address an important and dangerous issue – no time to use delicate PC language. As such, I think it was appropriate.

          • weka 9.1.2.2.1
            20 March 2022 at 3:44 pm

            I feel I have a reasonable grasp of what he meant, and I pointed out specifically that he didn't refer to people and then I explained why it was still a problem.

            Did you miss my meaning?

            I'll just say it again: river of fascism fine (it's about belief), river of filth is always going to be dehumanising (even if the person using it doesn't want it to be, that's how people relate to that term, and even more so with Woods' general framing.

            I think it was a risky metaphor and it took guts to use it in order to address an important and dangerous issue – no time to use delicate PC language. As such, I think it was appropriate.

            Sure, and then no-one can complain when we talk about two NZs. If how parts of the public receive an MPs words no longer matters, that is an important political issue. It doesn't actually matter what you and I took from Woods, what matters is that an MP stood up in the House and used a divisive term about an already very divisive topic. If the aim was to get National to smarten up, good luck with that. If the aim was to name the problem with the protest (which was appropriate to do), he did so in a way that will alienate the people we actually need to be calling in. Unless you can explain to me how his framing will speak to the people who were at the protest or support the protest, because I can't see it.

            • Incognito 9.1.2.2.1.1
              20 March 2022 at 4:48 pm

              I didn’t question your “grasp” as such, but my interpretation of Wood’s words is the complete opposite.

              He carefully contrasted people and [their] ideas. This deliberate contrast avoided the dehumanising aspect of which others accuse him – it was the pivotal part of his speech. In fact, it is the exact opposite: he left their humanity completely intact and acknowledged it, literally. The more I think about it, the more I admire his choice of words.

              This convo reminds me of the discussion we (Micky, Lynn, but mostly I) recently had with Adrian Thornton about playing the man and the ball. (NB It also reminds me I still have some unfinished business with AT) The crux of the matter is not to associate ideas too tightly with people as if they’re inextricably and permanently linked together like limbs or eye colour, for example. A stupid idea doesn’t make the holder a stupid person, a fascist is not an evil beast and can still love and be loved by others, a liberal imperialist may be reading the wrong things in the wrong places but is not the Devil-reincarnated, and so on and so forth. It also works on/for ‘the other side’, with people whom we hold in high esteem – they’re not perfect, kind, beautiful, or right in every aspect or all the time, obviously. At least, that’s how I see it.

          • Shanreagh 9.1.2.2.2
            20 March 2022 at 4:45 pm

            The river of filth is the beliefs. And they are filthy beliefs fascism, islamophobia etc. I added misogyny as there were many posters/placards about the PM on the actual cars etc in the NI convoy.

            Of course you could add people in to give it that extra frisson but he did not say this.

        • JO 9.1.2.3
          20 March 2022 at 3:30 pm

          Woods chose it with great precision,

          That being the case, why has everybody assumed he meant people – isn't it more likely that his carefully chosen words referred to ideas?

          There is a river of violence and menace

          There is a river of anti-Semitism

          There is a river of islamophobia

          There is a river of threats to people who work in this place and our staff.

          We can choose one thought over another, yes? Have too many of us assumed Michael Wood was not describing these as filthy ideas? Why would people want to bag him for saying something we might have taken the wrong way, if not to damage both him and the government at that fraught time? And it couldn't possibly be a sneaky form of semantic virtual signalling as well. Could it?

          • weka 9.1.2.3.1
            20 March 2022 at 3:39 pm

            That being the case, why has everybody assumed he meant people – isn't it more likely that his carefully chosen words referred to ideas?

            Please reread my comment, because I addressed this.

    • Anne 9.2
      20 March 2022 at 12:05 pm

      Shame on Michael Woods and Trevor Mallard

      What did it have to do with them? They don't get to decide who is to be arrested. The police do. And the police arrest on the basis of law breaking etc. It is not their job to look into backgrounds. That is the domain of the court system. If there are mitigating circumstances it will come out during the trials and the judge/jury will take it into account.

      • Anker 9.2.1
        20 March 2022 at 12:19 pm

        Anne, I wasn't referring to the point that these people got arrested. If they. broke the law they should have been arrested.

        The contempt I am talking about is Trevor turning on the sprinklers and playing music (both of which they police cautioned him against doing) and Michael Woods referring to "a river of filth".

        Incognito and I have a difference of opinion on Michael Wood's speech. I think it was his phrase "a river of filth" that would have stuck.

        Durning the protest, the govt started to roll back the mandates e.g. Children could join sports teams and play sport again aif they/their parents weren't vacinated.I was not a big supporter of the protest. I am quite a rule follower. What struck me as more than a bit rich, was what I saw as the hypocracy of some people who seem to think when they protested about various issues they were a more worthy sort of protester and of course, their group never broke the law.

        Guess what…every NZder is allowed to protest, even if we violently disagree with them. And many protests involve law breaking and the police can and of course often should arrest these law breakers.

        • Anne 9.2.1.1
          20 March 2022 at 12:34 pm

          I think you have over-reacted in both cases.

          At the time Mallard decided on using the sprinkler tactic there was still some hope the protestors might take the message and disperse. They didn't and with the benefit of hindsight they were never going to. But hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Just a pity one doesn't know in advance.

          Re Michael Wood. I think Incognito as adequately answered that one.

          • Anker 9.2.1.1.1
            20 March 2022 at 1:37 pm

            Anne, I just think it show contempt from Mallard turning the sprinklers on and playing the music. That is my opinion.

            Not sure what you mean about over reacting. Are my emotions too strong about this?

          • Foreign waka 9.2.1.1.2
            20 March 2022 at 4:28 pm

            Anne, we are talking about people with legitimate rights to voice their protest as under the law and that is perfectly fine even if I disagree. To douse them with water in the middle of the night and have speakers on at full blast is a dictators tool for the lack of using more forceful means conveying that "those dumb people" don't understand politics. Insult to injury its called and was in utter disrespect.

            This was done on the very first night of the protest lets be clear about that.
            It essentially conveyed that the protesters have no right and as such this action has done a great disservice to NZ, to the government and to the democracy that is suppose the banner of this country. Any political party or person sitting in the house is to represent all the people and the country as a whole and should uphold and demonstrate what it means to represent the idea of what NZ is. It would have needed a great person to humble themselves and speak to the ordinary folks right from the start. A bit of kindness would have gone a long way. But no, self-important posturing was the choice and because of that and the way this party has demonstrated that they feel they are "above" station to the ordinary foot folk I will never vote for them again. And I am not alone in this.

            I am double vaxed, boosted, mask wearing, distancing, complying with all restrictions but holding up rights of every person no matter what.

            If anyone would have broken the law the police would have arrested them. It was all in all a shameful event. Shameful.

            • Anne 9.2.1.1.2.1
              20 March 2022 at 6:58 pm

              I am double vaxed, boosted, mask wearing, distancing, complying with all restrictions but holding up rights of every person no matter what.

              When a group of people have a legitimate reason to protest such as the anti-Vietnam protest of the 60s and 70s, the anti nuclear movement of the70s and 80s, the anti-apartheid protesters of the 70s and 80s, Climate Change supporters of the 90s and 2000s then I'm with you all the way. But when it comes to a bunch of idiots and malcontents creating falsehoods and sinister conspiracy theories out of a vacuum then they are deserving of nothing but approbrium.

              If anyone would have broken the law the police would have arrested them. It was all in all a shameful event. Shameful.

              Now someone will correct me if I've got the figure wrong, but I recall the police arrested something in the order of 286 malcontents at the Beehive protest alone. Over-all it may be higher than that. And then there were all the anti vax/mandate arrests around the country prior to that event.

              Not very discerning are you.

        • Shanreagh 9.2.1.2
          20 March 2022 at 1:04 pm

          I think you are drawing a long bow to think/infer that it was a result of the protest that various strands of our covid response were amended etc. The Govt has been on to top of the Covid responses with tweaking etc as we came through.

          The trouble with the messaging from the protests was how little attention had in fact been paid to the official messaging around NZ's Covid mitigation strategies. If attention had been paid then those protesting would have known that as soon as the nation was through Omicron then restrictions would be rolled back. They clearly had not read this or not believed this.

          The protestors playbook was following the playbook of protests overseas whether or not they fitted the NZ situation. Most cases there was/is no correlation as we are behind in our Covid dealings as our outbreaks, especially for Omicron have been later. We as a nation have been able to learn from the actions of other nations.

          • Anker 9.2.1.2.1
            20 March 2022 at 1:34 pm

            Shanreagh, I am actually not sure about that. Whether the Govt were influenced at all by the protest, or whether the mandates are being rolled back anyway.

            I posted an article which was about some of the protesters who got arrested. They sounded like ordinary decent people. The guy who tried to have wi fi banned at his local school (a builder) had lost his 11 year old son to brain cancer. I can understand why he might have developed his views.

            I was hoping people on this site might read the article about the protesters. I thought they were smeared pretty badly from a range of people, but particularly from Mallard and Wood. Others see it differently.

            • Shanreagh 9.2.1.2.1.1
              20 March 2022 at 5:11 pm

              The govt was on record as saying that the mandates etc would be reviewed once we were through Omicron……..this was before the protests. The Govt's record for flexibility etc was there for all to see. I suspect it did not make it to the social media places that were being perused as a sole source of info.

              I remember thinking, looking at the messaging on the placards etc on the Convoy websites and the cars coming down, that the protestors had been getting their info from overseas eg Aus, Uk, US, Canada who were ahead of us in their responses to Covid-Omicron and were starting to dismantle, rather than in NZ.

              In fact it is my belief that many of the protestors got their info from overseas websites or through filtering groups such as VFF and many of these were not legit.

              We knew as early as October 2021 that the antivaxxers were flexing their muscles as can be seen in the article I link to often. David Farrier wrote:

              https://www.webworm.co/p/loopy?s=r

            • Anne 9.2.1.2.1.2
              20 March 2022 at 7:08 pm

              Anker: Ardern and Hipkins foreshadowed the mandate changes before the protest at parliament. I recall reading it online, in newspapers, at press conferences and radio and TV interviews.

              Nope I am not going to dig them out because it was so widely circulated. In fact a number of people on this site correctly predicted the protesters would claim they were responsible for the mandate changes when they were not. Not the first or indeed the last of their lies and fantasies.

              • Anker …
                20 March 2022 at 7:32 pm

                I think I have been clear that I am not sure if or whether the protest hastened the changes to the mandate

                • Anne …
                  20 March 2022 at 10:39 pm

                  Ardern and Hipkins made it clear well before the protest occurred that they would be looking to ease the mandates as soon as the country was past the peak of Omicron. Auckland is past the peak and the rest of the country appears to be catching up. There is one hitch still to be overcome and that is the rate of hospital admissions. There is always a lag, and these admissions are not expected to ease for a week or more.

                  I wish people would use their brains sometimes. It is imperative the hospitals do not become over-run and this is one of the primary reasons for the mandates. We've seen what has happened to hospital systems around the world when they end up beyond their capacities, and the health ministry as well as the government would not have wanted it to happen here.

        • Nic the NZer 9.2.1.3
          20 March 2022 at 1:15 pm

          "Durning the protest, the govt started to roll back the mandates e.g. Children could join sports teams and play sport again aif they/their parents weren't vacinated."

          Children, under 12.3, have always been allowed to join and participate in sports teams. The vaccination status of their parents is irrelevant here. This has never been a restriction officially or in any policy, so has not been rolled back at any time.

          • Anker 9.2.1.3.1
            20 March 2022 at 1:29 pm

            Thanks Nic. I had read that somewhere, but will take your information as I can't remember where and I don't have the interest if researching back.

          • Anker 9.2.1.3.2
            20 March 2022 at 7:37 pm

            https://www.newsroom.co.nz/u-turn-on-vaccine-mandates-for-school-sport

            Um Nic the NZder this is what I was referring to about school sports.

            • Nic the NZer 9.2.1.3.2.1
              20 March 2022 at 7:58 pm

              Its unclear on what age is being talked about. I will suggest this is over 12.3 when junior sports vaccine mandates kick in.

              As I understand it college school teams are not mandating vaccination presently for their competitions even though the same players need to be vaccinated in club competitions in these age grades. This seems possible as the competition regulations are more informed by the ministry of education (and we don't mandate school student vaccination) than the relevant sports governing bodies.

              But there is nothing in there about parents vaccination status being relevant.

    • Ad 9.3
      20 March 2022 at 1:12 pm

      So if we didn't have vaccination mandates?

      We might possibly have had fewer deaths. But we are now half a million infected out of 5 million total population. 10% of us.

      Was all that force of law worth it?

      The words "river of filth" should be put on billboards next election for all to see.

      I think the polls are telling Labour that they got all of this wrong.

      • Anker 9.3.1
        20 March 2022 at 1:29 pm

        Thanks Ad.

      • Anne 9.3.2
        20 March 2022 at 2:48 pm

        People are pissed off their lives have been affected and they prefer to blame someone rather than something. It's all the government's fault and we'll stick it to Ardern cos she's the PM and half of them don't like having a woman lording it over them (the misogynist half) and the other half are jealous. The culprit is Covid but that's so boring. Much better to blame 'thems' who are in charge.

        Rational thinking goes out the door in such circumstances. Which brings me to your suggestion that without vaccination mandates we might have had fewer deaths? Do please enlighten us how that could be.

        The Health Ministry did not get it wrong. The government was right to follow their advice. The people who blame the govt. for their discomfort and annoyance are wrong. But that is nothing new under the sun.

        • Ad 9.3.2.1
          20 March 2022 at 2:54 pm

          You are increasingly a minority in this country.

          Whether right or wrong, the collective judgement is now against you.

          I don't see any sign that this government gets how deep a hole it's in.

          • ghostwhowalksnz 9.3.2.1.1
            20 March 2022 at 3:08 pm

            'Possibly' viewer deaths.

            Thats gaslighting with a bunsen burner, especially beware those that claim the 'the country is against you'

            I remember how many before Xmas were barracking for the mandates to cover huge areas of the workforce rather than the limited ones we had …because they were doing so in Australia

          • Cricklewood 9.3.2.1.2
            20 March 2022 at 6:34 pm

            I won't be voting next election for sure and it will be a bloody long time before I countenance voting Labour again. Theres been a shit load of damage to society by mandates and no one really wants to acknowledge the actual scale of that. MSM seem to be touching on it now but feels like a sop to say look we were balanced.

            • Muttonbird 9.3.2.1.2.1
              20 March 2022 at 6:49 pm

              So that's in fact a vote for Labour. Thanks!

              If you really believe the government is so terrible you would do all you could by voting against them, surely.

      • Incognito 9.3.3
        20 March 2022 at 3:06 pm

        So if we didn't have vaccination mandates?

        We might possibly have had fewer deaths. [my italics]

        I don’t follow your logic. Maybe I need more coffee …

        There was then and there is now.

        Our vaccination status was very low and lagging, by international comparisons. There were different variants that were more harmful. We were watching and learning from the rest of the world, and we still are.

        With Omicron, vaccination offers much less protection against infection and transmission, but it still provides protection against hospitalisation and death, particularly after the third shot (aka booster).

        At the time, I made submissions to my employer against the introduction of mandatory vaccination at my workplace. Of course, it made no difference and they never looked back and still haven’t, as they’re waiting from the dog-whistle signal from above.

      • aom 9.3.4
        20 March 2022 at 3:19 pm

        Guess you will never apologise if it proves the precautionary approach advocated by experts, not numpties, was correct. We still don't know what long covid is going to throw up. There was a time when polio entered the country, but to no-where near the extent of covid. It took decades before the long-term ravages of that lot hit people who were assumed to have 'recovered'. The other concern will we be a situation in which the tools that served the country pretty well will not able to be reinstated

        OK, no big deal to you Ad but you had better pray that neither you nor your family live a miserable existence through illnesses and afflictions that are attributable to covid, on the back of your unqualified assertions.

        • Incognito 9.3.4.1
          20 March 2022 at 3:37 pm

          As so many and as so often, I think you might be misreading Ad’s comments. He’s right that the Government is in a bit of a PR pickle.

          • aom 9.3.4.1.1
            20 March 2022 at 4:40 pm

            Do you know the old saying, "Let's hear it from the organ grinder, not the monkey."

            • Incognito 9.3.4.1.1.1
              20 March 2022 at 4:57 pm

              Let’s see, this is OM and I wrote “I think”, which means that I was conveying my personal thoughts and I was not speaking on behalf of Ad; as such, I did not preclude a reply by Ad, but I’m not all that confident he’ll respond to you. If you prefer the organ grinder, why don’t you opt for chicken entrails?

        • Ad 9.3.4.2
          20 March 2022 at 7:03 pm

          I pray that no more get affected. 10% of the population surely is enough.

          I also pray that the government stops trying to control everything when it's patently obvious that they have been out of control for months.

          Just a bit of honesty from Ardern that she is a flaming smoking 747 made of solid poop that is dragging the entire Labour government down with it.

          Ardern is good at her job but she is now a political liability.

          • Muttonbird 9.3.4.2.1
            20 March 2022 at 7:08 pm

            Thrashing around from extreme to extreme doesn't look politically savvy to me. Measured and considered analysis is far more valuable.

            • Ad 9.3.4.2.1.1
              20 March 2022 at 7:13 pm

              Yeah I'd say the electorate doesn't agree with that either.

              There's still 2 months to Budget, which in current circumstance is a very, very long time.

              Ardern has failed to refresh her Cabinet for too long so all the momentum for actual caucus renewal will fall on her.

              Cruel business and clearly Labour still retain massive message discipline.

              But that will only last so far if the polls continue to say: Labour are gone.

        • Ad 9.3.4.3
          20 March 2022 at 7:20 pm

          Labour need to constantly re-justify every single limitation of pre-COVID human rights.

          There's some tools Ardern is rightly never going to use again, and I suspect no future government would use a "vaccine mandate" again outside of schools.

      • KJT 9.3.5
        20 March 2022 at 3:20 pm

        The low death rate, as a proportion of infections, show that the mandates, and other measures to get vaccination rates as high as possible, were well worth it.

        Just compare with Hong Kong. Only 66% of elderly vaccinated with NZ, over 95%.

        Unfortunately the propaganda battle is being won, by outright lies in support of National.

        • Ad 9.3.5.1
          20 March 2022 at 7:05 pm

          Omicron wasn't controlled by vaccine mandates.

          Vaccine mandates outlived their utility in November. It's now March.

          • KJT 9.3.5.1.1
            20 March 2022 at 10:10 pm

            The evidence doesn't agree with you.

            Omicron has at least a 7 times higher death toll, without vaccination.

            And then there is the comparison with Hong Kong I showed above.

            Getting vaccination rates as High as possible has been critical in reducing the harm from Omicron.

            Not forgetting that Delta is still around, also.

            • Incognito 9.3.5.1.1.1
              20 March 2022 at 10:17 pm

              How much is Delta still around? It appears it has been surpassed by Omicron.

              https://cov-spectrum.org/explore/New%20Zealand/AllSamples/Past6M

              • arkie …
                20 March 2022 at 10:39 pm

                Are we not opening up to the world again? There's still a tiny amount of Delta in Australia, but I still think it may be hopeful to think Omicron is the last variant, or that we won't need to get updated or improved vaccines in the future.

                • Incognito …
                  20 March 2022 at 10:49 pm

                  I suppose that may be true, but given that NZ lags behind I thought it was a reasonable question as to how much Delta is still around.

                • McFlock …
                  20 March 2022 at 10:54 pm

                  Why would it be the last variant? Has its tendency to mutate suddenly stopped? It already has a subvariant after… 4? months

                  • arkie …
                    20 March 2022 at 11:03 pm

                    Absolutely, and with large amounts of transmission and infection that multiply the chances of more mutations.

                    I have previously complained Ardern ruling out any future lockdowns could well cost us dearly. The desire to ‘return to normal’ is understandable but not how I’d prefer public health policy determined in these times. Alas.

                    • McFlock …
                      20 March 2022 at 11:29 pm

                      Found out today that a friend is in hospital because of covid.

                      I occasionally wonder how much of the "relaxation" is government caving to pollsters, and how much of it is "well, 30% of compliance with real controls is actually not as good as 70% compliance with relaxed controls, so after 2 years of white-ants, planBers, National party bullshitters, and rabbit-hole fuckwits, this is the best we'll get. Adjust the mortality projections accordingly".

                      Gotta say, it's gonna be much more difficult to "heal divisions in society" and build bridges with those fuckwits if my friend dies. Just as an observation.

                    • Adrian Thornton …
                      21 March 2022 at 12:18 am

                      "The desire to ‘return to normal’ is understandable"…that is the last thing we want…National and Labour have been underfunding our public health system for decades..I guess because none of them use it…a large part of the Wests problems with dealing with Covid can be linked directly to their (Neo) Liberal austerity funding of public health over the decades…all running down their various health care systems to the point of collapse…why Labour hasn'tt just thrown tons of money at our Health care system over the past few years when they had access to cheap money is a mystery to me…

                      A decade of neglect leads to NZ nurses’ strike
                      https://thelamp.com.au/workplace-issues/unions/a-decade-of-neglect-leads-to-nz-nurses-strike/

                      Health $3.2 billion under-funded since 2009/10
                      https://www.nzdoctor.co.nz/article/undoctored/budget-2019-health-32-billion-under-funded-200910

                    • Shanreagh …
                      21 March 2022 at 2:05 am

                      To McFlock I am hoping that your friend will do well in hospital and quickly get back to good health. It will be a worrying time for you.

                    • McFlock …
                      21 March 2022 at 10:42 am

                      Thanks, Shanreagh. He should be right, it just makes the discussions less abstract at the moment.

        • Poission 9.3.5.2
          20 March 2022 at 10:41 pm

          Just compare with Hong Kong. Only 66% of elderly vaccinated with NZ, over 95%.

          Picturing variability clearly shows the difference.

          https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1503420660869214213?cxt=HHwWisC98YTInN0pAAAA

          • KJT 9.3.5.2.1
            21 March 2022 at 9:18 am

            Thanks.

            I was looking for that graph again.

            It shows clearly why mandates, and other measures to get vaccination rates up, are working.

            Then there are those who want to "remove the parachutes" because we didn't make a big Hole in the ground yet.

            Can't help feeling that too many people prefer an ongoing disaster like the one right wing parties caused overseas.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 9.3.6
        20 March 2022 at 3:26 pm

        I think the polls are telling Labour that they got all of this wrong.

        The willingness of some to (apparently) believe that Labour "got all of this wrong" amazes me – that on Fantasy Island a fantasy government could have steered a fantasy population on a flawless fantasy path through this pandemic without inconveniencing anyone – unreal.

        Ireland (5 mil): 27% have had a case; 0.13% of the popn died

        Denmark (5.8 mil): 49% have had a case; 0.09% of the popn died

        Finland (5.6 mil): 14% have had a case; 0.05% of the popn died

        Norway (5.5 mil): 25% have had a case; 0.04% of the popn died

        Australia (26 mil): 15% have had a case; 0.022% of the popn died

        NZ (5 mil): 9.4% have had a case; 0.003% of the popn died

        We don't know how lucky we've been, so far.

        • Ad 9.3.6.1
          20 March 2022 at 7:07 pm

          Why is death then a useful measure of COVID's damage?

          It's as silly as measuring road maintenance by road toll: multiple times more get permanently maimed by injury.

          • Muttonbird 9.3.6.1.1
            20 March 2022 at 7:10 pm

            Surely it's the only measure for both. Death being final and all.

            What other measure is there? And don't say flat whites.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 9.3.6.1.2
            20 March 2022 at 10:43 pm

            Why is death then a useful measure of COVID's damage?

            There are, of course, other useful measures, but adding more would have taken more than a tidy ‘one line’ per country.

            I'm alive – until that changes death will remain a useful measure to me.

      • Muttonbird 9.3.7
        20 March 2022 at 5:02 pm

        Without mandates vaccination rates would have been much poorer.

        Mandates will have saved hundreds if not thousands of lives in the wash up. Most people understand this.

        Government want to sell this message? They’ll be accused of being smug, see the Andrea Vance article today and countless others.

        These days, even government achievements are not allowed to be celebrated.

        • Ad 9.3.7.1
          20 March 2022 at 7:08 pm

          Triple vaccinations helped us.

          The mandate to deprive of legal entry, shopping, employment etc was a separate legal step.

          Lower court judges have gone both ways on whether it was legal: it has needed to go to the Supreme Court much quicker than this.

          • Muttonbird 9.3.7.1.1
            20 March 2022 at 7:13 pm

            How do you get to triple vaccination without incentives/disincentives?

            Anyway, the prime reason for mandates is to keep the unvaccinated as safe as possible and not shafting our health system. A fact which they and many others find it difficult to grasp, for some weird reason.

            Mandates will come off when the time is right. It's already started.

            • Ad 9.3.7.1.1.1
              20 March 2022 at 7:17 pm

              We'll never know if we would have achieved the vaccination levels for 1 and 2 without mandates in 2020 and early 2021.

              But having the mandates operating for shot 3, vaccination rates are far worse than 2020 or 2021.

              Looks like when we were asked for common purpose we were fine. Team of 5 million etc.

              But when we were forced to, more people said "nah".

              • Muttonbird …
                20 March 2022 at 7:29 pm

                Pretty sure mandates don't operate for boosters. It's 1+2 only.

                Plenty of people in my industry not boostered but are at work. I know because I overhear their conversations about it, at work.

      • McFlock 9.3.8
        20 March 2022 at 8:10 pm

        I think the current polls are telling Labour that the cops should have cleared parliament lawn on day 1, however unrealistic a demand that might have been.

        • Shanreagh 9.3.8.1
          20 March 2022 at 10:30 pm

          Perhaps. What we saw on the second day from the protestors was bad enough and seemed hard enough to control by the Police. Perhaps we needed to have the riot police there from day one/two. It may mean that any future large protest will meet a shielded up squad.

          I think this protest may have kicked more legitimate protests in the guts for the future…..we will see huge Police pushback and a 'do not trust these protestors, any protestors' stance' that will affect the peaceful, making a point marches. Already we are facing auto gates and traffic changes around there.

          I think people are sick of Covid and this stoopid, selfish protest was the last straw.

    • Peter 10.1
      20 March 2022 at 11:27 am

      By my reckoning Pelosi will be 82 in a couple of days, Churchill was PM at 81 and Adenauer was Chancellor at 87. Winston Pewters at 78 will still be a young fulla when the next election comes around!

      • Blade 10.1.1
        20 March 2022 at 12:33 pm

        A rebel looking for a cause is our Winston. This time round we need him to mop up the votes Matt King is going after. He can then return to his RIGHT full home.

        If Winston plays on how he was a brake on Labour's madness when he was in coalition, and that he can do the same again in coalition with National…he may get some traction.

        Matt King doesn't have the mana to do well with his new party in my opinion.

        • Peter 10.1.1.1
          20 March 2022 at 3:27 pm

          King obviously will have to get 5% party vote to get in. Or convince his old Northland electorate supporters to get in behind. If he does that and splits the National vote, Willow-Jen Prime might just get back in.

      • Blazer 10.1.2
        20 March 2022 at 12:39 pm

        Pewter gets tarnished and loses its shine after a while…

        You can polish it…though.cheeky

        • Peter 10.1.2.1
          20 March 2022 at 3:29 pm

          Be assured it was a fat finger fault not Freudian. Freudian might have turned pewter into puker!

  11. Blade 11
    20 March 2022 at 12:55 pm

    The net tightens on our freedoms. Soon privacy will be the preserve of those who can afford it. 5G is being touted as being the best thing since sliced bread, but it may not be so good for your privacy.

    Once hard currency goes digital, it's all over.

    https://www.spark.co.nz/help/mobile/understand/understand-esim.html

  12. tsmithfield 12
    20 March 2022 at 12:55 pm

    Here is an excellent video from the "Caspian Report" that explains clearly why Russia has effectively already lost the war in Ukraine.

    I say "already lost" because the video outlines the optimal scenario for Russia in this conflict and explains how even in this scenario it is a long-term lose for Russia.

    A good example of how this scenario has unfolded in recent times is the Afghanistan conflict. Despite the intervention of Western military, the people who were in charge of Afghanistan prior to the intervention are back in charge again now.

    One of the problems for Russia is that they are achieving the exact opposite of "winning hearts and minds" by attacking the civilian popultation.

    Thus, even if Russia achieves all its military objectives (which seems unlikely at the moment), they will have spawned huge amounts of hatred against them, which will support a strong insurgency going forward.

    As the video points out, a lot of Ukraine is ideally suited to insurgency activity. And these insurgents will likely be heavily armed by the west. Thus, Russia is unlikely to be able to afford to defend any territory it has gained going forward. And it definitely will not have a neutral buffer state to insulate itself from Nato.

    Also, it is likely to experience a high degree of terrorism within Russia itself.

    Also, Russia will lose economically out of this conflict. Due to the exiting of many Western businesses that might not return; strategic moves by European countries to move away from Russian energy; and the longterm effect of ongoing sanctions; Russia will come out of this conflict much weaker and even less able to afford to maintain the conflict going forward.

    Also, the west has united much more strongly against the military adventures by Russia. Prior to this, the west was appearing fragmented; a situation that both Russia and China were seeking to exploit.

    Finally, whenever Ukraine gains full control of its country again, it will be much more aligned to the west than it was before. An outcome which is exactly the opposite of what Russia is seeking.

    Thus, even in the best case scenario for Russia, they will fact be engaged a conflict that they can't afford to continue, and eventually the Ukranians will have their country back. But the cost to Russia will be huge in the meantime, and they will be in a much weaker economic and strategic position than they were at the start of the conflict.

    • Sanctuary 12.1
      20 March 2022 at 1:42 pm

      I see the Ruskies are claiming that they have used a "hypersonic" missile against a target in deep in Western Ukraine. Which tells us that they are running out of cruise missiles, and they are suffering heavy losses in manned aircraft when they try to penetrate those parts of Ukraine that still have SAM defenses.

      • Blazer 12.1.1
        20 March 2022 at 2:03 pm

        Why does that 'tell' you they are running out of cruise missiles?

        Maybe they are signalling they have more lethal weaponary to utilise…if they wish.

      • aj 12.1.2
        20 March 2022 at 3:32 pm

        "hypersonic"

        They are more likely sending a message, they are scary weapons.

        Does anyone really think they are running out of arms? when they are the world's second largest exporter? – I think that's just a propaganda line.

        Russia is the second largest exporter of arms in the world. Russia embarked on improving its military strength after the fall of the Soviet Union and invested heavily in military defense. The top manufacturing companies in Russia are Almaz-Antey, United Aircraft, and Tactical Missiles Corporation. The industry employs 20% of the manufacturing sector’s workforce. Russia has exerted its place in the global market through affordable hi-tech arsenals.

        https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/world-s-largest-exporters-of-arms.html

        • tsmithfield 12.1.2.1
          20 March 2022 at 6:29 pm

          I agree it is sending a message and upping the ante.

          However, I am not sure the Russians would have wanted to use these weapons because it gives NATO a chance to analyse the performance of these weapons in actual use.

          I expect that Russia would have preferred to keep this technology as secret as possible.

      • joe90 12.1.3
        20 March 2022 at 5:23 pm

        claiming that they have used a "hypersonic" missile

        Or they're pointing and shooting and telling the boss we showed 'em. Never mind whether or not they actually targeted anything of importance.



        As Russia’s invasion of Ukraine grinds on, with resistance still strong, and overall progress limited, Russian airpower, not surprisingly, remains involved. So far, the tactics and application of the Russian Aerospace Forces, or VKS, have left many observers baffled. Compounding this is recent footage that appears to show attack helicopters from the service launching unguided rockets in an apparent effort to provide ‘airborne multiple rocket launchers‘ — the efficiency of which is questionable, at best.

        https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/44803/russian-attack-helicopters-are-now-wildly-lobbing-rockets-over-ukraine

        • aj 12.1.3.1
          20 March 2022 at 7:23 pm

          Never mind whether or not they actually targeted anything of importance.

          Yes, or Putin is sending a major "do not F with us" message to the West.

          I suggest he is reminding the world that, whatever logistics challenges his military might be thought to face it retains an edge in absolute bleeding-edge nuclear and conventional weaponry.

    • Blazer 12.2
      20 March 2022 at 1:56 pm

      Russia does not want to occupy Ukraine.

      Russia wants a neutral Ukraine on its border,not a Trojan Horse armed to the teeth by the West.

      Russia wants protection for Russians in the Donbass.

      Russia's demands are very reasonable and should have been accepted weeks ago.

      • tsmithfield 12.2.1
        20 March 2022 at 2:48 pm

        I agree it "wants" a neutral Ukraine. How do you think deliberate killing of innocent civilians will lead to that outcome?

        Do you think paper political neutrality will stop insurgencies by groups that hate what Russia has done?

        • Blazer 12.2.1.1
          20 March 2022 at 3:32 pm

          Civilian deaths in military operations are 'collateral damage'…we know this from past U.S operations around the…world.

          Insurgents,and anti govt groups exist all over the globe.

          • tsmithfield 12.2.1.1.1
            20 March 2022 at 3:38 pm

            So you would call deliberate and intense shelling and bombing of civilian areas to be "collateral damage"??

            If that is the case, then any attack on civilian populations is "collateral damage".

            On that basis, the nuking of Hiroshima was "collateral damage".

            • Blazer 12.2.1.1.1.1
              20 March 2022 at 4:02 pm

              Yes it is a term invented by the U.S.A ,it sounds more…benign.

              • tsmithfield …
                20 March 2022 at 6:13 pm

                OK. So just so we all understand what you are saying. Any military attack on civilians right up to a nuclear bomb is "collateral damage", so it is OK?

                • Blazer …
                  20 March 2022 at 7:41 pm

                  No,that is what the Pentagon and the Govt of the U.S.A…say.

                  Comprehension,my dear old…thing.

                  • tsmithfield …
                    20 March 2022 at 7:56 pm

                    Really? Earlier, you justified the slaughter of civilians in Mariupol as collateral damage.

                    Collateral damage is defined as:

                    "injury inflicted on something other than an intended targetspecifically : civilian casualties of a military operation"

                    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/collateral%20damage

                    So, if you seriously think that Mariupol being intentionally wiped of the face of the earth is damage consequential to the military campaign

                    https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-fears-remain-for-more-than-1300-people-in-ruins-of-bombed-theatre-in-mariupol-as-politician-says-we-pray-they-will-all-be-alive-12570016

                    then you truly have a warped way of thinking.

                    • Blazer …
                      20 March 2022 at 8:00 pm

                      As I said…comprehension!

                      I justified no such thing.

                      All I have said is that 'collateral damage' is a term used by the U.S.A in regard to civilian casualties in their dozens of military interventions.

                    • tsmithfield …
                      20 March 2022 at 8:47 pm

                      I think you said exactly what I asserted.

                      From our previous conversation:

                      TS: "How do you think deliberate killing of innocent civilians will lead to that outcome?"

                      Blazer: "Civilian deaths in military operations are 'collateral damage'…"

                      Seems fairly clear to me what you were saying. It was quite reasonable to infer from that conversation that to you, the deliberate killing of innocent civilians counts as collateral damage as part of a military operation.

                      Here is some of your "collateral damage" in Mariupol.

                      Enjoy…

                    • Blazer …
                      20 March 2022 at 8:55 pm

                      There is no justification to target civilians in military operations.

                      Once again you think by continually repeating your version of what I actually say ,equates to what you want it to mean.

                      I have given you the benefit of the doubt on numerous ocassions,but now realise that…you are just really…thick.

                    • tsmithfield …
                      20 March 2022 at 9:04 pm

                      Nice to hear you say that.

                      Perhaps if you had been a bit more forthright at the outset we may not have had our "misunderstanding".

                      So, looking at that video I put up, would that qualify as "collateral damage" to you, from what you can see?

                      If you don't see it as collateral damage, but rather the deliberate targeting of civilians, how does that affect your view of what the Russians are doing in Ukraine at the moment?

                    • Blazer …
                      20 March 2022 at 9:16 pm

                      Your video does not convince me that civilians were deliberately targeted.

                      If they were, that city would look like Dresden after the allies bombed it into…rubble.

                    • tsmithfield …
                      20 March 2022 at 9:24 pm

                      If they weren't targeting civilians then civilians would have been allowed to leave rather than being blockaded in the city without food and water.

                      According to this video, the residents were enduring 50-100 artillery assaults a day:

                      If this doesn't count as deliberate targeting of civilians I don't know what does. But I guess to you it is still just "collateral damage".

                      You have a very sick perspective my friend.

    • Byd0nz 12.3
      20 March 2022 at 2:06 pm

      Dream on. It's more like Russia and Ukraine will come to an agreement that sees an independent Donbass and an Independent neautral Ukraine free of NATO and billions of dollars of American war shit. We will see in time who is dreaming here.

    • Foreign waka 12.4
      20 March 2022 at 4:38 pm

      If they are finding themselves cornered, it is conceivable that the conflict will escalate to a major war and with NATO involved has the potential for those who will survive to get to know what Einstein once said:

      "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones".

      • Gypsy 13.1.1
        20 March 2022 at 2:12 pm

        These were available in 2020. It’s a repeat of the vaccine roll out, too slow, too late.

        • Poission 13.1.1.1
          20 March 2022 at 2:20 pm

          But if we have unused capacity how can it be too late? it is not over utilized at present.

          • Gypsy 13.1.1.1.1
            20 March 2022 at 4:51 pm

            Because we’ve wasted 18 months (or so) without rapid testing. The consequences of that have been significant.

        • ghostwhowalksnz 13.1.1.2
          20 March 2022 at 2:49 pm

          Alternative covid testing ?

          Theres probably a dozen similar other tech from other companies.

          The story you have is just a puff piece for the sales managers system and the accuracy doesnt compare with the 'lab based versions'- which gave NO false positives which in the elimination strategy was what we wanted

          A similar approach from Abbott with a rapid 'mobile' system

          ' The test in question is a portable testing machine from Abbott that takes only 5 minutes to process a sample, quite a bit faster than the standard testing systems. Researchers from a testing lab at New York University’s Langone Medical Center (who liked the idea of a faster test, given the number of tests they perform) did comparisons to the machines they are currently using and published a PDF about it– some tests on the same swabs and some on different swabs taken at the same time from the patient. They say the Abbott machine missed 1/3 (out of 15) or 1/2 (out of 30) samples where the current machine found the virus.'

          https://www.statschat.org.nz/2020/05/15/test-accuracy/

          We switched of course to the saliva rapid antigen type test for Omicron wave ( when it was impossible to get elimination)

        • Drowsy M. Kram 13.1.1.3
          20 March 2022 at 4:04 pm

          So Kiwis could have had even better pandemic health outcomes?

          Who said what when? Key Covid quotes to mark the lockdown anniversary [18 March 2022]

          23 March 2020
          “The worst case scenario is simply intolerable. It would represent the greatest loss of New Zealander’s lives in our country’s history. I will not take that chance.”
          Jacinda Ardern, Prime Minister of New Zealand

          January 2021
          “So what does a reasonable recovery look like?’ I asked the doctor. "What is the best we can hope for?” His shocking reply was ‘being able to hold a hairbrush’.”
          Kate Garraway, TV presenter, whose husband had Covid

          July 2021
          “A few patients we are caring for still deny Covid exists, even as we strap oxygen masks to their faces. That is perplexing. Staff find that particularly hard. We are absolutely, genuinely exhausted. After more than a year of Covid, resilience is very low.”
          Anonymous NHS A&E Consultant

          March 2022
          “We have attempted unsuccessfully to persuade the UK Government to take a more gradual approach to the rundown of Covid testing.”
          Mark Drakeford, Wales First Minister

          We don't know how lucky we are…

          • Anne 13.1.1.3.1
            20 March 2022 at 4:14 pm

          • Gypsy 13.1.1.3.2
            20 March 2022 at 5:00 pm

            We are over $100bn in debt. We have inflation running higher than many other developed nations. Our economy has been closed for business for one of our largest foreign exchange earners. But if you only want to focus on health, fill your boots. We've got a ballooning mental health crisis. Thousands of operations have been postponed. We have fallen behind in vaccinating for other serious disease. There is lots more, but essentially in the pursuit of Covid nirvana, this government has thrown our economy and our health system under the bus.

            EDIT: How would being ahead of the game with rapid testing and vaccinations made the health response any worse? Of course it wouldn’t have.

            • Nic the NZer 13.1.1.3.2.1
              20 March 2022 at 5:25 pm

              "We are over $100bn in debt."

              https://www.rbnz.govt.nz/markets-and-payments/our-balance-sheet-at-work

              NZ appears to owe at least half of that to itself. When the treasury repays the over $50bn listed here it gets it back via RBNZ profit rebate. Or the government could just have this self debt written off, which makes no difference either way anyway.

              • Gypsy …
                20 March 2022 at 8:58 pm

                Net NZ Government debt over $100bn according to Trading Economics, and confirmed by Newshub

                • Blazer …
                  20 March 2022 at 9:04 pm

                  I think you'll find the Key govt got to 80billion….without..a..pandemic.sad

                • Nic the NZer …
                  20 March 2022 at 9:27 pm

                  and what? Those measures count in them the debt held by the RBNZ.

                  • Gypsy …
                    21 March 2022 at 9:36 am

                    Government bonds are effectively debt owed by our children. The RB takes the place of international lenders in what is called 'quantitative easing', or printing money. But that money still has to be paid back, it can't be cancelled, and so it is owed by our children and their children etc. In the meantime, we have to live with the inflationary impact.

                    • Nic the NZer …
                      21 March 2022 at 7:42 pm

                      "A variant of the false analogy is the declaration that national debt puts an unfair burden on our children, who are thereby made to pay for our extravagances. Very few economists need to be reminded that if our children or grandchildren repay some of the national debt these payments will be made to our children or grandchildren and to nobody else. Taking them altogether they will no more be impoverished by making the repayments than they will be enriched by receiving them." – Abba Lerner

                      Or in the particular case of the RBNZ held debt its literally treasury owing debt to effectively a government department, it literally gets rebated any profit the RBNZ accrues back to itself. Of course these bonds could be equally cancelled rather than repaid.

                  • Gypsy …
                    21 March 2022 at 8:08 pm

                    "Or in the particular case of the RBNZ held debt its literally treasury owing debt to effectively a government department, it literally gets rebated any profit the RBNZ accrues back to itself. Of course these bonds could be equally cancelled rather than repaid."

                    No we simply can't cancel or forgive the debt because we'd be am international pariah. That;s the way international lending works. The money used to fund the borrowing has been either borrowed internationally or printed. Either way, the piper wants his money.

                    • Nic the NZer …
                      21 March 2022 at 8:52 pm

                      Of course the RBNZ can write off those bonds it holds, it does not need to earn the interest and principal from them because it is the only institution which issues $NZ either way. Central banks can operate under negative equity indefinitely. This doesn't threaten repayment to any other bond holders, though as I highlighted its equivalent to repaying oneself for these bonds when they come due.

                      Because you seem confused on this point it seems important to highlight that most of NZs borrowing is in $NZ. This means that the overwhelming volume of borrowing transactions involve transactions inside the NZClear settlement system. That is in govt borrowing the transaction involves a transfer between two accounts operated by the RBNZ.

                      https://www.rbnz.govt.nz/markets-and-payments/nzclear

                    • Nic the NZer …
                      21 March 2022 at 9:11 pm

                      That comes from an unfortunately rather confused article. What is being proposed with a write off is not that the govt sources funds from somewhere and repays the debt (which it owes to its department), its that the debt is not repaid and the bonds are cancelled (at the request of that department). So no writing off the debt doesn't add additional liquidity inside the NZclear payments system.

                      Its more like if a court declared that a debt was invalid and declares it void, though in this case its clearly something the RBNZ and treasury could just agree to do.

                      It should also be clear that the discussion about reserves being deposited at commercial banks in inside the NZclear accounts effectively inside the RBNZ. These 'deposits' involve effectively bumping up a deposit balance in one account electronically, and down in another account electronically. Unsurprisingly this transaction is not resource constrained, and no you can't take your $NZ to the RBNZ and exchange it for another currency there no matter how much the author of that article wants them to do that for him. That's no longer a service they provide. I know in the UK they are more explicit about this and you can take your pound sterling to the BoE where they will issue with… a pound sterling.

                      On the 10 pound notes it says, "I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of 10 pounds", and so on.

                      https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/polymer-10-pound-note

                    • Nic the NZer …
                      21 March 2022 at 9:26 pm

                      So I highlighted that writing off debt does not add liquidity to NZclear at all. Also the RBNZ doesn't do currency exchange and that the RBNZ is the only institution which issues any form of NZ$, most of which never leave their systems even when deposited at a commercial bank (notes and coins being a trivial exception).

                      But the critical question should be what if the bond market loses faith and stop lending to the government. Does this somehow mean that the government runs out of money? Well clearly no, in fact this presents zero difficulty because all the payments are already made inside the RBNZ. If the government wants to pay somebody it just tells the RBNZ to deposit that money with the payees bank. That probably runs up the governments overdraft account (yes, its a thing), but even in the worst case scenario bond markets have no control over govt spending decisions.

                  • Gypsy …
                    21 March 2022 at 10:00 pm

                    “That probably runs up the governments overdraft account ”

                    The government has to borrow the money to pay the money that has been printed back. So it’s debt.

                    • Nic the NZer …
                      21 March 2022 at 10:21 pm

                      As mentioned here the govt has an overdraft facility with the RBNZ.

                      https://www.rbnz.govt.nz/markets-and-payments/our-balance-sheet-at-work

                      Of course money is a debt, it appears on the same side of the balance sheet as more explicit debt.

                      Something all monies seem to have in common is they are accepted to repay liabilities against the institution which issues them. If you owe the govt money (maybe a tax payment) they will accept their issued credits to extinguish that debt. From the point of view of the govt balance sheet the debits and credits are reversed due to double entry accounting. This also works for a commercial bank where you repay a debt to them via a deposit held within their accounting system. This has no particular implications for how much money can be held in either govt operated accounts, or how many deposits a commercial bank can record in its accounts.

                  • Gypsy …
                    21 March 2022 at 10:11 pm

                    "That comes from an unfortunately rather confused article."

                    The article is not confused, you are.

                    "What is being proposed with a write off is not that the govt sources funds from somewhere and repays the debt (which it owes to its department), its that the debt is not repaid and the bonds are cancelled (at the request of that department). "

                    Sigh. The government HAS to source the funds from somewhere, because at some point the bearer of the money printed will want payment.

                    "But even so, the debt does not disappear, it just takes the form of that additional amount of money floating around the economy. At some point this extra money will end up being deposited in commercial banks and be held as reserves which earn interest from the RBNZ. The currency in circulation is also legal tender backed by the authority of the government. If no one else wants to accept it, holders of this money should be able to sell it back to the RBNZ for something of value in return (US dollars, say). One way or another, sooner or later the debt will have to be honoured."

                    But of you seriously want to entertain default:

                    "If for some reason trust in a government goes, watch the balls come crashing down. Any hint of default or not honouring debt obligations will lead to long-term damage to a government’s reputation and its future ability to borrow. No one will want to hold the government’s debt in the form of government bonds. When that happens, we see capital flight — money flows out of the country as people seek a return elsewhere. The value of the currency goes through the floor, with catastrophic effects on the economy, such as occurred during the Asian financial crisis in 1997."

                    • Nic the NZer …
                      21 March 2022 at 10:33 pm

                      "Sigh. The government HAS to source the funds from somewhere, because at some point the bearer of the money printed will want payment."

                      The present owner of more than $50 billion of this debt is the RBNZ. They are the only place NZ$ come from already so they certainly don't need the repayment to operate. All notes and coins are already issued by them, and all virtual amounts only exist in the RBNZ accounting system. That could obviously be written off, though it makes zero difference if it just gets paid internally as it comes due.

                      As I already explained, the RBNZ operates all the accounts and bond market lenders don't prevent any of this occurring under any circumstances.

                  • Gypsy …
                    22 March 2022 at 9:55 am

                    "The present owner of more than $50 billion of this debt is the RBNZ."

                    You're confusing a Balance Sheet presentation with what happens when people go to 'bank' that money, ie call on it from the banking system. That's when the RB has to cough up, either with more printed money, or by borrowing. Or they can default and 'the balls come crashing down'. This is conventional economics.

                    • Nic the NZer …
                      22 March 2022 at 10:52 am

                      Its very difficult to understand what you are saying. The RBNZ owns the quoted figure in govt bonds, when they come due the owner is paid the bonds nominal value out, if the RBNZ is paid that sum nobody deposits that anywhere because its a central bank it simply goes into the RBNZ balance sheet. Any deposits relating to this process are just the regular treasury spending operations, or follow bond repayments to owners other than the central bank, which are likely to end up being deposited to peoples accounts and yes do increase the reserves available to clear payments.

                      As described the reserves available to clear payments are unchanged by treasury payments to the central bank and are decreased by commercial banks making payments to the central bank or govt. Notably the banking system won't be left short of the reserves to clear its spending as its always possible to borrow clearing reserves at the OCR from the central bank.

                      Your explanation appears not to contain a central bank in it which is certainly not an institutional arrangement supported by conventional economic theory.

                  • Gypsy …
                    22 March 2022 at 11:23 am

                    "The RBNZ owns the quoted figure in govt bonds…"

                    Yes, and it has printed money to purchase them. When that printed money enters circulation, people spend it or bank it. At that point the money is 'redeemed' and the RB has to pay up (to the commercial banks) either by printing more money or by more borrowing.

                    You're also forgetting that when the RB purchases those bonds by printing money, it's liabilities increases by the corresponding amount.

                    I'm curious to know why you think all economic analysis shows the printed money as debt?

                    • Nic the NZer …
                      22 March 2022 at 11:40 am

                      When deposits are made at a commercial bank electronically then the deposit banks reserve account is debited this amount and the source account of the payer credited by the same. Presumably the banks own account for the depositor is also debited the same. But payment transactions balance so this doesn't involve any further change in liquidity, beyond the RBNZ purchase.

                      Why do I think of money as like debt (though often it pays no interest)?

                      Thats because (as you said) it appears on a balance sheet as a central bank liability. I'm not forgetting that at all its intrinsic to the nature of money.

                  • Gypsy …
                    22 March 2022 at 1:26 pm

                    "Why do I think of money as like debt (though often it pays no interest)?"

                    That's not what I asked. You are arguing that money generated by QE is not debt. My question is why do economists and international financial analysts disagree with you?

                    "But payment transactions balance so this doesn't involve any further change in liquidity, beyond the RBNZ purchase."

                    When the $50 you hold that has been printed by QE is deposited by you, the RB has to stand behind the value of that money when the commercial bank calls on it. That's why it is reflected as a liability in the RB's balance sheet.

                    This may explain it better:

                    "the truth is the Government is borrowing money off its own bank, who just invented it, albeit in a slightly roundabout way. In theory, the bank will eventually sell the debt back out into financial markets to tighten monetary policy and lift longer-term interest rates at some vague future date. Or it could hold the bonds to maturity and 'make' the Government pay back the money to the Reserve Bank when the bonds mature."

                    • Nic the NZer …
                      22 March 2022 at 2:01 pm

                      You have already answered your own question. When I said

                      "Why do I think of money as like debt"

                      I clearly am not arguing "that money generated by QE is not debt." quite the contrary. Economists and international financial analysts agree with me about this entirely. Also as I already mentioned "That's why it is reflected as a liability in the RB's balance sheet."

                      Now say I have a $50 note which was somehow used previously to purchase govt bonds under QE (though that is all virtual spending in practice). When I then deposit that at a bank then the bank received the $50 note and adds to my deposit account $50. This involved no change in liquidity though possession of that note transferred from me to my bank. Say the bank then returns the $50 note to the reserve bank in return for a debit of $50 to their reserve account. Well in this case there was also no change in liquidity though possession of the note transferred from the bank to the reserve bank and the banks reserve balance (in the RBNZ accounts) has been debited by $50. The form of the liquidity changed from a note to electronic reserves in this case. This is exactly what standing behind the value of money means and is the basis for the BoE writing "I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of" on its notes.

                      Its exactly as your quote says the govt has been borrowing $50 billion off the RBNZ the only change in liquidity involved occurred when the treasury spends that (maybe that's how I got hold of the $50). However if it holds the bonds until maturity then the treasury pays back the RBNZ and this involves no change in liquidity, nobody will receive these repayments and so can't deposit them in a bank. This is just the reverse of the process where by the RBNZ originally issued the money to begin with.

                  • Gypsy …
                    22 March 2022 at 2:07 pm

                    "I clearly am not arguing "that money generated by QE is not debt." quite the contrary."

                    That's EXACTLY what you have been arguing.

                    "NZ appears to owe at least half of that to itself. When the treasury repays the over $50bn listed here it gets it back via RBNZ profit rebate. Or the government could just have this self debt written off, which makes no difference either way anyway."

                    You also seem to be rabbiting on about liquidity. This isn't about liquidity, per se, it's about your claim that half of what we owe is owed to ourselves. That is patently untrue. Ultimately the government owes that money to whoever presents it to a commercial bank for redemption.

                    • Nic the NZer …
                      22 March 2022 at 2:41 pm

                      I have not been arguing that at all, and if you want to claim it further then quote exactly where I have said it.

                      When I say we owe the debt to ourselves I mean the RBNZ is the owner of a lot of govt debt at present. This is an outcome of the QE policy where the RBNZ purchased that debt. There is over $50 billion listed here presently as owned by the RBNZ.

                      https://www.rbnz.govt.nz/markets-and-payments/our-balance-sheet-at-work

                      Now you apparently don't understand, but its important to realize that the RBNZ balance sheet is consolidated into the treasury balance sheet. Any profit earned by the RBNZ is returned to the treasury via the standard RBNZ profit rebate process.

                      https://www.treasury.govt.nz/sites/default/files/2020-05/4278985_How%20the%20Reserve%20Bank%20Large%20Scale%20Asset%20Purchases%20affect%20the%20Crown%20balance%20sheet.pdf

                      In combination these facts demonstrate the claim "that half of what we owe is owed to ourselves."

                      Your final paragraph is pretty difficult to decipher but essentially liquidity is another word for some form of money. On the other hand if the govt ultimately owes a bond holder and they receive 'cash' on redemption one would think they have extinguished that debt when they paid over cash, and not later when that cash is deposited. On the other hand if you take a govt bond to a commercial bank they won't give you cash for it, that's not how these bonds work.

                      On the other hand if you have a way to redeem the payment of govt debt twice over then we are all ears.

                  • Gypsy …
                    22 March 2022 at 2:54 pm

                    "I have not been arguing that at all, and if you want to claim it further then quote exactly where I have said it."

                    I did.

                    "Now you apparently don't understand, but its important to realize that the RBNZ balance sheet is consolidated into the treasury balance sheet."

                    Yes, I understand. What you don;t understand is that by denying the country actually has to repay well over $100bn in debt, you are swimming against a current of economists.

                    • Nic the NZer …
                      22 March 2022 at 3:09 pm

                      No you didn't, you quoted where I have highlighted the more than half of govt debt is owed to an organisation which is consolidated into the government. That's a fact which I have demonstrated multiple times now, which you apparently accept is fact.

                      Of course this was all fully resolved in my first comment at 13.1.1.3.2.1 already.

                  • Gypsy …
                    22 March 2022 at 3:35 pm

                    "No you didn't, you quoted where I have highlighted the more than half of govt debt is owed to an organisation which is consolidated into the government."

                    I quoted were you responded to my claim that NZ was over $100bn in debt by trying to make out we weren't.

                    "That's a fact which I have demonstrated multiple times now, which you apparently accept is fact."

                    No, it's not a fact, it's a function of you not understanding either the RB's balance sheet or how the money generated by QE is actually redeemed.

                    • Nic the NZer …
                      22 March 2022 at 5:08 pm

                      "I quoted were you responded to my claim that NZ was over $100bn in debt by trying to make out we weren't."

                      Your incorrectly making this claim again. Where have I said NZ doesn't have over $100bn in debt, that is a matter of public record. Its also a matter of public record that the RBNZ owns (meaning will presently be repaid for) over $50bn of that. Its not that the country hasn't issued that debt, its just that around half of it is a debt to a government institution.

                      Now when you say "No, it's not a fact" are you actually contending that the RBNZ is not part of the governments balance sheet? Because your prior comment on this question was "Yes, I understand."

                      As to your other verbiage, far as I am aware the money generated by QE is no different to any other money. But if this is not the case what is the difference and how can I tell if I am looking at QE money or regular money and just where would I be able to look at it anyway.

                      Now assuming I can get hold of it, presumably in a cash form, where do I take it to redeem it and what happens when I do redeem it?

                  • Gypsy …
                    22 March 2022 at 5:45 pm

                    “Your incorrectly making this claim again. Where have I said NZ doesn't have over $100bn in debt, that is a matter of public record.”

                    Wrong. It’s a matter of public record that NZ does have $100bn in debt.

                    “Its also a matter of public record that the RBNZ owns (meaning will presently be repaid for) over $50bn of that.”

                    That line item in the balance sheet is what is getting you confused.

                    “Its not that the country hasn't issued that debt, its just that around half of it is a debt to a government institution.”

                    Which in turn has to pay that amount out to banks when that money is redeemed. That commitment is a liability, that has to be met at a future time. In other words, it is debt.

                    • Incognito …
                      22 March 2022 at 5:57 pm

                      Wrong. It’s a matter of public record that NZ does have $100bn in debt.

                      I hate to tell you, but that wasn’t Nic’s question; he wants to know where he said that, i.e. where he made that claim. In fact, you seem to agree with Nic on this point.

                    • Nic the NZer []
                      22 March 2022 at 6:13 pm

                      This part is fully understandable. I likely missplaced a comma. Its well known that kind of thing makes people go completely insane. Not that I know where to put that comma for best mental health outcomes.

                    • Nic the NZer …
                      22 March 2022 at 6:08 pm

                      Good we seem to be in full agreement then. NZ has over $100bn in debt and I never claimed otherwise.

                      As for that line on the balance sheet your completely wrong. Those bonds are listed as assets of the reserve bank. They are assets which were already paid for during the Large Scale Asset Purchase program, during which the RBNZ purchased those assets. I know its probably already getting tricky but when those bonds mature the owner is paid the coupon amount by the treasury (which issued them).

                  • Gypsy …
                    22 March 2022 at 6:26 pm

                    "Those bonds are listed as assets of the reserve bank. "

                    Ok, let's make this about accounting. The bonds are a debit, an asset in the RB's balance sheet. What is the credit side of the double entry?

                    • Gypsy …
                      22 March 2022 at 6:28 pm

                      "I hate to tell you, but that wasn’t Nic’s question; he wants to know where he said that, i.e. where he made that claim. In fact, you seem to agree with Nic on this point"

                      Nic is arguing that the debt is owed by the NZ Government to itself, and is consolidated out. That is not correct. Ultimately the money printed via QE ends up in the hands of people who redeem that money and that costs the RB.

                    • Incognito []
                      22 March 2022 at 7:49 pm

                      I think you’re stuck in a groove of antagonism and dissonance. Nic has already concluded that you two agree on this point at 6:08 pm (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-20-03-2022/#comment-1877596). He never made the claim as alleged by you. Please keep up and move on.

                    • Nic the NZer …
                      22 March 2022 at 6:43 pm

                      The RBNZ paid money for those bonds so thats a credit to Crown Settlement Balances on the liabilities side. Thats how the process gets to be known as 'money printing'. Also the reverse for the prior bond owners who credit their bond account and debit their money balance.

                    • pat …
                      22 March 2022 at 7:03 pm

                      "The RBNZ wanted to slash interest rates to stimulate the economy and keep inflation and employment buoyed. It launched the LSAP programme, because it didn’t have too much scope to keep cutting the Official Cash Rate (OCR), which was already nearing zero.

                      This suited the Treasury, because it kept interest costs low on the debt it was issuing to cover Covid-related expenses."

                      https://www.interest.co.nz/bonds/114944/rising-interest-rates-could-see-government-suffer-5-billion-loss-reserve-banks-qe

                      They misjudged the trend…and so it will cost everyone….id add that i wouldnt want their job.

                  • Gypsy …
                    22 March 2022 at 7:03 pm

                    "The RBNZ paid money for those bonds so thats a credit to Crown Settlement Balances on the liabilities side. "

                    Exactly. So the asset on the RB's books is offset by a corresponding liability. So on consolidation with the government accounts, the debt in the crown accounts (of the money printed/bonds purchased) is net debt.

                    • Gypsy …
                      22 March 2022 at 7:16 pm

                      "They misjudged the trend…and so it will cost everyone….id add that i wouldnt want their job."

                      The RB governor is heavily compromised since he accepted the governments change to consider employment alongside price stability. He should have walked there and then.

                    • Nic the NZer …
                      22 March 2022 at 7:59 pm

                      It seems important to highlight that that balance sheet page describes the RBNZ not the consolidated accounts (which are released with the budget).

                      Now there are two critical transactions your not taking into account. First before that bond could be sold under the LSAP program it needed to be purchased from the DMO (treasury). This reduced settlement balances in the publics hands and increased govt debt. Its basically the reverse of the QE transaction though the primary dealers will typically make a small profit on selling to the RBNZ.

                      Further the most important thing is what happens on bond maturity. If the RBNZ still owns the bonds on maturity then all parties involved are part of the consolidated balance sheet making that transaction net out.

                    • Nic the NZer []
                      22 March 2022 at 8:11 pm

                      For clarity "sold under" should have been "sold to" in the above.

                    • pat …
                      22 March 2022 at 8:13 pm

                      Im not sure he 'accepted' it….he didnt however resign over it. he may well be ignoring it, or at least consigning it to the bottom of the pile of considerations.

                      There are two focuses of the RBNZ, price and financial stability, everything else is a distant third.

                      And I may add imo they have failed on their primary goals.

                    • Gypsy …
                      22 March 2022 at 8:29 pm

                      "And I may add imo they have failed on their primary goals."

                      Do you think though that that could be because those two goals can, at times, be incompatible? That's my view, and it's the reason I believe Orr's credibility was shot the moment he accepted the governments change.

                    • pat …
                      22 March 2022 at 8:41 pm

                      I dont believe the added mandate had any impact…it was a very loose requirement by necessity. The RBNZ have failed (and not just Orr in the current iteration, indeed he has been unfortunate in the timing) in that they allowed (encouraged?) the bubble to inflate to the degree it has…..that is contrary to both of the foundational mandates of the RBNZ.

                    • Gypsy …
                      22 March 2022 at 9:01 pm

                      "that is contrary to both of the foundational mandates of the RBNZ."

                      Well said.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 13.1.1.3.2.2
              20 March 2022 at 10:35 pm

              Gypsy, you have a knack for making everything sound simply awful, and yet there's no place I'd rather be – quite the paradox, although I've never been particularly money-oriented.

              After a relatively benign (for some) 70 years, during which the population of spaceship Earth's tripled and civilisation reached peak convenience (for some), we live now in pressure cooker-times and many face a less certain future.

              We might disagree about priorities, but maybe you and I could agree on the best ways to address the manifold threats to the comfortable Kiwi way of life that some of us enjoy. For example (@13.1.1.3.2), the professionals that provide NZ's excellent public (not for profit) health services need help.

              We are absolutely, genuinely exhausted. After more than a year of Covid, resilience is very low. [UK]

              The reason for this and other sorry states of affairs in NZ and elsewhere? "Follow the money" and you couldn't go far wrong.

              Chlöe Swarbrick: UN-enshrined human right to housing eclipsed by investor greed [4 Aug 2021]

              We signed up to the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights, drafted and passed without dissent by the United Nations General Assembly. The UN was created after some of the world's most devastating wars, in hope of creating peace by enforcing basic standards for member nations and their people.

              The succeeding 70 years, however, saw basic tenets of that contract broken as elected representatives sacrificed goals of shared security and prosperity in favour of individual greed and gain.

              They instead gamed the system to procure untold wealth for a handful of people at the expense of the largest transient population since around the time we were signing on to the Declaration of Human Rights 70 years ago. In Aotearoa New Zealand, that wealth comes in the form of owning houses, multiples of them.

              https://www.odt.co.nz/news/politics/overhaul-public-health-funding-being-explored

              https://evolutioncare.com/about-us/leadership-team/

              • Gypsy …
                21 March 2022 at 9:15 am

                And you have a knack for ignoring any other impact than singular health outcomes. The costs of the inaction of the governments slow responses and myopic vision will be felt for decades.

                • KJT …
                  21 March 2022 at 9:21 am

                  Is there some compulsion with right wingers to continually repeat lies.

                  Or. Is it a sincerely held belief that if you "repeat something often enough it becomes true".

                  The economic and health statistics from NZ, compared with other countries prove you are talking through your arse.

                  Results!

                  The Government has lagged on other things. Poverty being one, but it is hard to see how anyone could have managed the covid epidemic better.

                  NACT would have given us the disaster that Trump and Johnson managed.

                • Drowsy M. Kram …
                  21 March 2022 at 10:16 am

                  And you have a knack for ignoring any other impact than singular health outcomes.

                  Odd comment. How could I, or anyone, ignore the impact of this pandemic on individual fortunes:

                  Ten richest men double their fortunes in pandemic while incomes of 99 percent of humanity fall
                  [17 January 2022]

                  Or on our society:

                  The pandemic has highlighted inequality but nothing has changed [12 March 2022]

                  What will be the long-term consequences of government policy in the pandemic? Will the example of competent state action suggest that the state can be reasserted, and this extended peaceably and electorally (as it was in the 1930s and beyond) to create a more equal society? Or will the example of the most vulnerable being neglected in a time of claimed social cohesion lead to socialist uprising to force government change? Or will lack of action to address child poverty and disadvantage continue, and this inequality be manipulated to increase right-wing anti-state sentiment?

                  Obviously, these outcomes will take place on a global stage, but it is interesting to consider the claim by the French economist Thomas Piketty that the socialism and welfare states of the mid-20th century were the result of the highlighting of unequal sacrifice and the incompetence of the elites in the two world wars.

                  Or indeed on the course of civilisation:

                  Global CO2 emissions rebounded to their highest level in history in 2021 [8 March 2022]

                  Ever stuck: Suez container ship’s cousin runs aground in US harbor [15 March 2022]
                  Officials are now scrambling to refloat that container ship, ironically named the Ever Forward, after it got stuck on Sunday night…

                  Trust that these links show I'm not ignoring the wider impacts of COVID-19, just as I trust the primary effects of a pandemic, from which all responses and other impacts flow, are clear to you.

                  Definition of pandemic
                  1 : occurring over a wide geographic area (such as multiple countries or continents) and typically affecting a significant proportion of the population
                  // pandemic malaria
                  // The 1918 flu was pandemic and claimed millions of lives.

                  • Gypsy …
                    21 March 2022 at 10:39 am

                    Yeah, nah. You're comments consistently draw on the binary of deaths v's the rest of the world.

                  • Gypsy …
                    21 March 2022 at 11:04 am

                    And BTW – on health outcomes – who'd have thought that in the last 7 days, NZ would be 9th in the world for the most cases per capita, and 46th in the world for deaths per capita.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      21 March 2022 at 11:10 am

                      In a pandemic, every country gets at least one turn. As I said:

                      you have a knack for making everything sound simply awful

                      and this pandemic has certainly been more awful for some than others – hope you get the help you need to pull through.

                  • Gypsy …
                    21 March 2022 at 11:58 am

                    "Alive vs dead is a valid binary – at least we're still kicking."

                    No, it isn't. Becasue we don't know how many people died WITH covid, as opposed to OF covid.

                  • Gypsy …
                    21 March 2022 at 12:00 pm

                    "and this pandemic has certainly been more awful for some than others"

                    Absolutely. In 2021 in particular I believe we could have done a better job at making it better.

                  • Gypsy …
                    21 March 2022 at 12:45 pm

                    "It’s likely the pandemic death toll is "vastly underestimated". Awful enough for you?"

                    It's likely that 75% of vaccinated people who died from Covid had 4 or more co-morbidities.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      21 March 2022 at 12:58 pm

                      It’s likely that 75% of vaccinated people who died from Covid had 4 or more co-morbidities.

                      My point is that it's likely the pandemic's death toll is vastly underestimated. Not sure what point you’re trying to make – co-morbidities have been around a lot longer than COVID-19.

                  • Gypsy …
                    21 March 2022 at 1:04 pm

                    "Not sure what point you’re trying to make."

                    That the death toll is likely inflated by people dying WITH covid as opposed to OF covid. Like this guy shot dead in his driveway who happened to have covid.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      21 March 2022 at 6:15 pm

                      Like this guy shot dead in his driveway who happened to have covid.

                      Do you genuinely believe that such instances have contributed significantly to the COVID-19 death toll?

                      Do you also believe that the 96 authors ("COVID-19 Excess Mortality Collaborators") of that March 10th paper in The Lancet (link @12:37 pm) overlooked your ' inflated concern'?

                      If so, then you are an extraordinary individual, imho.

                  • Gypsy …
                    21 March 2022 at 7:33 pm

                    "Do you genuinely believe that such instances have contributed significantly to the COVID-19 death toll?"

                    You're missing my point. If 75% of vaccinated people who died with Covid had 4 or more co-morbidities, your 'under reporting' is balanced somewhat wouldn't you think?

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      22 March 2022 at 3:52 am

                      You're missing my point. If 75% of vaccinated people who died with Covid had 4 or more co-morbidities, your 'under reporting' is balanced somewhat wouldn't you think?

                      Whether COVID-19 is the final blow, versus the underlying cause of death, will be raised and debated ad nauseam by some – no doubt they have their reasons.

                      Given half a chance most governing politicians of all stripes would prefer to minimise the number of pandemic-related deaths occurring on their watch. But robust excess mortality estimates are difficult to 'fudge'.

                      Excess mortality due to the COVID-19 pandemic: a systematic analysis of COVID-19-related mortality, 2020–21 [10 March 2022]
                      We estimated that several countries, including Australia and New Zealand, have had negative excess mortality during the pandemic.

                      May be temporary, but still something to celebrate, surely?

                    • Incognito []
                      22 March 2022 at 8:12 am

                      Death is an easy metric, but cause of death, quality of life, life expectancy, health & wellbeing (wellness), for example, are (much) harder to quantify or predict/calculate – even excess mortality is not as straightforward as one would think. Much depends on definitions and methods. Some of those metrics are better and more useful than others for convos about Covid-19 and Public Health measures.

                  • Gypsy …
                    22 March 2022 at 9:47 am

                    "May be temporary, but still something to celebrate, surely?"

                    Of course, but I suspect as time goes on we will see that number change significantly. We have a potential whooping cough epidemic around the corner, thousands of postponed cancer screenings, tens of thousands of postponed surgeries etc etc.

                    I agree with Incognito's comment – there is a lot more to this.

              • Gypsy …
                22 March 2022 at 11:32 am

                "I'm suggesting that despite continuing 'concerns' about awfulness "around the corner", our government seems to have done relatively well so far…"

                They did well in 2020. Their response since has been sluggish, a combination of missed opportunities, poor planning and execution and some subterfuge.

            • ghostwhowalksnz 13.1.1.3.2.3
              21 March 2022 at 8:17 am

              We were nearly $100 bill in debt when The Key English government ended.

              Gross debt ( the amount that is paid back and which is paid interest on) was $20 bill or so in 2008 and became $87 bill at their last budget ( other debt was foisted off in PPP projects)

              Tourism isnt a 'largest foreign exchange earners' at all. The results without it have been remarkably good except in a few areas over dependent on tourists. But some places were dependent on freezing works or railway workshops too and nobody really cared when they closed down

              MBIE figures reckon foreign tourism is 4% of GDP, but the industry like many others l bloats their own numbers by including ALL hospitality and accomodation as 'tourism'.

              Australia was even luckier as they were really a nett tourism exporter which much higher outbound tourists heading overseas than us

              But we had the outbound tourists largely stop too and a lot of that went local

              • Gypsy …
                21 March 2022 at 9:30 am

                "We were nearly $100 bill in debt when The Key English government ended.

                Wrong. It was less than half that.

                "Tourism isnt a 'largest foreign exchange earners' at all. "

                Wrong. Prior to the pandemic, "Tourism was New Zealand’s biggest export industry, contributing 20.1% of total exports. "

                I'll leave it there.

                • KJT …
                  21 March 2022 at 9:46 am

                  Time to change your glasses.

                  International tourism was almost certainly a net loss to NZ.

                  And Key presided over a massive shift from Government debt to private debt. Still has to be paid back from foreign exchange earnings, but Key sold off income earners that could have paid it back.

                  Not to mention the huge real deficit, which we have had to rapidly make up in a hurry to fight COVID. Running down infrastructure and services while rapidly expanding the population. A deficit we may never recover

                  • Gypsy …
                    21 March 2022 at 9:51 am
                    1. I think it might be you who needs a change of glasses because I referred to foreign exchange earnings.

                    2. "International tourism was almost certainly a net loss to NZ." And of course you'll be able to support that opinion with actual data?

                    • KJT …
                      21 March 2022 at 2:10 pm

                      Still working on the data.

                      A project we started a while ago.

                      Puffery about the benefits of inbound tourism are easy to find.

                      Quick Facts & Figures – TIA

                      Data on spending by outbound tourists, and the overseas exchange spent to cater for inbound tourism, is harder to teese out, but we are getting there.

                      Buying motor caravans from overseas and wages paid to short term backpackers, for example, are including in the tourism spend within NZ, but the earnings go overseas. A negative to our balance of trade.

                      A quick look at inbound and outbound numbers and average spends,, shows that outbound tourists, while less than inbound, spend more on average.

                      Takes time to compare all the datasets. This is just one.

                      International travel: December 2019 | Stats NZ

                  • Gypsy …
                    21 March 2022 at 2:48 pm

                    "A negative to our balance of trade."

                    This is where you just don't get economics.

                    1. Wages of back-packers are in return for them working in NZ businesses.

                    2. From those wages, the back packers pay PAYE, and spend money in the NZ economy.

                    3. When they supply labour, they help earn profits for those NZ businesses.

                    4. If they work in tourism or agriculture/horticulture, they actually contribute to foreign exchange earnings.

                    Overall a very positive impact on our economy.

                  • Gypsy …
                    21 March 2022 at 10:16 pm

                    "You just don't get reality."

                    Which part of what I wrote is not reality?

                    BTW, you're the one who wants to ditch an industry that pre Covid generated around $17b direct and $11bn indirectly to the economy, and employed 225,384 directly and 158,802 indirectly. And without a shred of evidence. You 'lefties' never did understand economics.

                    • KJT …
                      22 March 2022 at 5:56 pm

                      That likely costs NZ more than it makes.

                      You "righties" struggle with arithmetic, let alone economics.

                      Turnover is not profit, BTW.
                      “righties” struggle to understand business as well.

                      Why you need the “Socialists” to keep bailing you out.

                  • Gypsy …
                    22 March 2022 at 6:23 pm

                    "That likely costs NZ more than it makes."

                    So you keep claiming. but without providing any evidence. That's why I filter what lefties tell me.

                    • KJT …
                      22 March 2022 at 6:40 pm

                      Unlike "righties" I am bothering to gather the evidence.

                      Which, of course takes more time, than just cherry picking puffery from tourism supporters, who, like you, seem unaware that claimed turnover is not the same as real net earnings or benefits.

                      The more figures I manage to obtain the worse Tourism looks.

                      And I haven't even got to factoring in environmental costs and other indirect costs to our community, yet!

                  • Gypsy …
                    22 March 2022 at 7:14 pm

                    "Unlike "righties" I am bothering to gather the evidence."

                    No doubt you'll convince yourself that the largest export industry in the economy is destroying our country and has to be shut down forthwith. At the same time you will ban all vehicles, make equine transport and cycling compulsory, and take over your neighbours property because they have a swimming pool.

  14. Belladonna 14
    20 March 2022 at 1:13 pm

    Have to say that this article articulated well what I'm feeling about both major parties in NZ. Quite frankly, I no longer trust either of them. And, while I expect (to a certain extent) spin from the NP, the obfuscation and 'message management' from the LP, has been profoundly disappointing. I truly believed in Ardern's 'most transparent government ever'…. more fool me….

    Politicians are enabled to gaslight us because of the torrent of information in our digital age. Who has time to fact-check every statement? And at a time when every press conference or speech is live-streamed, most of these confident assertions go unchecked.

    We shrug off the lies because in a post-Trump world we no longer expect truthfulness, integrity or decency. The most pressing problems: hardship, climate change, the viability of our health systems, are too big to contemplate, so we happily accept slogans over real solutions.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/300544382/voters-are-being-gaslit-all-the-way-to-next-years-election-campaign

    • Muttonbird 14.1
      20 March 2022 at 1:31 pm

      Vance used to do stake-out work for the Daily Mail. She egged poor Peter Dunne into humiliation an embarrassment.

      Vance is the queen of gaslighting and is upset government comms is a tight as a drum, not like in Peter Dunne's day. There are no weak wilderbeast on the plains anymore.

      She can't get a scoop for her CV any longer, therefore writes about that as if it were news.

    • Puckish Rogue 14.2
      20 March 2022 at 3:30 pm

      'We shrug off the lies because in a post-Trump world we no longer expect truthfulness, integrity or decency.'

      Yeah I remember when politicians never told lies or never acted like bullies (thats sarcasm)

  15. Byd0nz 15
    20 March 2022 at 1:16 pm

    I think it would be a good idea if instead of voting for the old farts to run the joint, we should vote for the Youth Parliament to have a go, after all, it's a young peoples World and if we have made progress, then ,the youth as a whole should be better educated than the old farts who have made a mess and allowed themselves to be ruled by military organisations such as 5 eyes etc whos' aims are for world hegmony. And while the Youth Parliament are at it , they may decide to support a united world and discard money systems in favour of making the planet more human habital for thier Children yet to come.

  16. Herodotus 16
    20 March 2022 at 1:23 pm

    Q&A had this morning a researcher from Auckland commenting on Long COVID and how she was crowd funding to finance this research. Why does not the COVID or PM funds contribute to this ? Perhaps it has to do with Hipkins dismissal of this using our vaccination rate as a reason that it could not be so evident here in NZ. That is 🤬 poor reason to the governmentsblindness to this. Perhaps all it needs is for a severe case to a devision maker to understand how real it is. As we see the govt reacts to polls during this term !!!

    https://www.healio.com/news/primary-care/20211208/long-covid-symptoms-last-for-more-than-1-year-mount-sinai-study-shows

    • Incognito 16.1
      20 March 2022 at 1:48 pm

      You hear that rustling noise? That’s a herd of strawmen running for the hills because someone heard that somebody had a gaslighter.

      • Shanreagh 16.1.1
        20 March 2022 at 1:50 pm

        Ha ha good one…….wink

      • Herodotus 16.1.2
        20 March 2022 at 4:17 pm

        It is people like you are our government that are unable to relate or appreciate what really happens. Just dismiss long COVID and those suffering from it, will not change people suffering and struggling to cope with diminished health. I gather you have not been in contact with anyone who is experiencing this??
        And the reason for the link was that it listed common symptoms with a rate of those who experienced.

        • Shanreagh 16.1.2.1
          20 March 2022 at 4:56 pm

          I believe in Long Covid and that we will have a problem on our hands…..my response to Incognito was as recognition of his wit.

          • Anne 16.1.2.1.1
            20 March 2022 at 5:12 pm

            Herodotus does not have a reputation for a sense of humour.

            • Herodotus 16.1.2.1.1.1
              20 March 2022 at 6:21 pm

              Humour like this about rape ?? "but it could be said she asked for it." If that is your idea of humour ?? I am happy that you then question my humour.

              Anne11.2.2.1

              7 November 2021 at 10:09 am

              Well, she did publish – or allowed to be published – some rather provocative photos of herself. I don't for one minute condone the responses, but it could be said she asked for it. The two women PMs – one former, one current – are/were treated to the most vile of abuse simply because they exist.

              [You know what, you can fuck off for a month for dredging up an old comment about rape and weaponising this to hit back at another female commenter because she dared to question your sense of humour. Your despicable vile response shows your skin is too thin to handle humour here – Incognito]

        • Incognito 16.1.2.2
          20 March 2022 at 5:08 pm

          You’re muddying the waters by throwing so many rocks and sticks in it. Let’s start with this: where on Earth do you get the false idea that Government is dismissing long Covid?

    • ghostwhowalksnz 16.2
      20 March 2022 at 3:01 pm

      This is the actual TV1 story about the long covid research here. Your other link is just generic 'LC' story

      https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/03/19/nz-needs-to-act-with-long-covid-tsunami-coming-expert/

  17. adam 17
    20 March 2022 at 1:40 pm

    [YT clip deleted, as you made no point and provided no commentary – Incognito]

  18. Shanreagh 18
    20 March 2022 at 1:49 pm

    I do not think much of the lazy language users of the words 'woke' and 'gaslighting'. often they are using it in a way that is not the definition…..I think of them as filler words that signal 'here is a place for you to use whatever anti word you have for the Govt'

    I reject any view that says we are being manipulated by Govt or have an abusive relationship from Govt or that the Govt is emotionally abusing us. I reject also that the Govt is creating a false narrative and making me question my judgement and reality.

    'Gaslighting is a form of manipulation that often occurs in abusive relationships. It is a covert type of emotional abuse where the bully or abuser misleads the target, creating a false narrative and making them question their judgments and reality'

    All parties have spin, all parties want to show off their policies in a good light. We can read those with a grain of salt ……. the maliciousness implied is OTT.

  19. joe90 19
    20 March 2022 at 5:03 pm

    Oh well, gargling piddle it is.

    Researchers testing repurposed drugs against Covid-19 found that ivermectin didn’t reduce hospital admissions, in the largest trial yet of the effect of the antiparasitic on the disease driving the pandemic.

    Ivermectin has received a lot of attention as a potential treatment for Covid-19 including from celebrities such as podcast host Joe Rogan. Most evidence has shown it to be ineffective against Covid-19 or has relied on data of poor quality, infectious-disease researchers said. Public-health authorities and researchers have for months said the drug hasn’t shown any benefit in treating the disease. Taking large doses of the drug is dangerous, the Food and Drug Administration has said.

    The latest trial, of nearly 1,400 Covid-19 patients at risk of severe disease, is the largest to show that those who received ivermectin as a treatment didn’t fare better than those who received a placebo.

    “There was no indication that ivermectin is clinically useful,” said Edward Mills, one of the study’s lead researchers and a professor of health sciences at Canada’s McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario. Dr. Mills on Friday plans to present the findings, which have been accepted for publication in a major peer-reviewed medical journal, at a public forum sponsored by the National Institutes of Health.

    https://archive.li/wwPF2 (wsj)

  20. Stuart Munro 20
    20 March 2022 at 5:34 pm

    As a longtime fan of Frank Stockton's recipe for political reform, I must congratulate the author of the Beastmaster of Kyiv.

    “Reports are coming in from both Russian and Ukrainian soldiers in Kyiv that a male siberian tiger, believed to be loose from the Kyiv Zoo, has been attacking Russian encampments at night. The tiger has been seen accompanied by a lone individual in militia-style gear, believed to be a keeper at the zoo. Ukraniants have dubbed the mystery keeper [phrase in Ukrainian] In English – ‘The Beastmaster of Kyiv’ “

  22. joe90 22
    20 March 2022 at 8:34 pm

    Translation; Russia intends to attack diplomats in Lviv and blame Ukraine.

    (tbf, despite being surrounded 1200km away in Mariupol, I guess the Azov battalion could make it.)

    https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1505289250387943425

  23. pat 23
    20 March 2022 at 8:40 pm

    Couldnt happen here…..or could it?

    "Sri Lanka has cancelled school exams for millions of students after running out of printing paper, as the country contends with its worst financial crisis since independence in 1948.

    Education authorities said on Saturday the term tests, scheduled a week from Monday, were postponed indefinitely due to an acute paper shortage, with Colombo short on funds to finance imports.

    “School principals cannot hold the tests as printers are unable to secure foreign exchange to import necessary paper and ink,” the Department of Education of the Western Province said."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/20/sri-lanka-cancels-school-exams-over-paper-shortage-as-financial-crisis-bites

    • Poission 23.1
      20 March 2022 at 9:23 pm

      Why should it.

      Japan a high commodity importer,with a managed economy had Feb Inflation ( 1 yr) at 0.9% and the reserve bank kept the ocr unchanged,although suggesting that volatility could arise with Ukraine uncertainty.

      good example of a country and business's using forward cover to smooth price flows,as opposed to cost plus,they use efficiency to remove cost.

      • pat 23.1.1
        21 March 2022 at 4:40 am

        Japan runs persistent trade surpluses and has the consequent benefits of a net credit position….NZ the opposite.

        Apples with apples.

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