I don't know if others have already commented on this, but it is brave and wonderful that in the budget the tax rate for trusts was raised from 33% to 39%, the same as the top income tax rate, to fix the rort/anomaly where trustees used trusts to only pay 33%.
Luxon will doubtless change this back-Standard readers need watch for the Nats policy position on this.
Trust income, in short if you found yourself in the 39c tax bracket you would once you reached it put the money into a trust which would pay 33c. For it to be a worthwhile work around you needed to earn 300k and up
so people whose assets are in a trust, and are earning income from that, but whose income would otherwise be in a lower tax bracket, will pay 39% on the trust income?
ok, that makes more sense. So people who have a trust but aren't high inome earners, and who aren't trying to rort the system, can just take out the income each year and pay their normal tax on that rather than the 39%.
There is no 'rort'. Beneficiaries don't benefit from a different tax rate in the trust because as soon as they are paid a distribution, their personal tax rate kicks in.
so are Cricklewood and BG wrong when they say that the income being earned by the trust was being taxed at 33% but if it was personal income wealthy people would be paying 39%?
In the next financial year income coming into the trust will be taxed at 39%. Are you saying that if that stays in the trust until the following year but then is paid out that the beneficiary gets a rebate (assuming they pay less than 39%)?
In answer to question 1, ultimately what beneficiaries pay comes down to the nature of the distribution and the personal tax rate of the beneficiaries.
Increasing the trust tax rate to 39% is meaningless, because trustees will simply distribute all profits in the year they are earned (as most do now), and beneficiaries will pay whatever they pay, somewhere between 39% and zip.
It can be a rort. Parents who don’t have a trust have to meet the cost of their child's upkeep from their own income. With a trust, however, a child beneficiary's upkeep cost can be recovered from the trust, saving the parents a fair bit of money.
It would be useful to have legislation making it illegal to pass income to a child (or to anybody for that matter), through the use of a trust, without good reason.
I have friends who set up a trust so that they could hide income so that they could claim working for families. My understanding is that this is a widespread rort
If they are beneficiaries of the trust, the IRD will cut straight through the trust and effectively void the transactions. It’s the same scenario as gifting to avoid the cost of rest home care.
No rorts, of course – just an example of NZ punching above its weight.
Trust that Trust [October 2021; PDF]
A Practical Guide to Family Trusts in New Zealand Australasia is known to have a love affair with trusts. It is thought that New Zealand has the most number of trusts per capita of any country in the world – approximately one for every 10-15 people. Accordingly, they are integral to the fabric of not only our economy, but also of our society and have many uses as we will see.
Too much of a 'good' thing?
The Panama Papers New Zealand link revealed [6 May 2016]
New details from the Panama Papers show how a stream of foreign cash became a torrent flooding into New Zealand trusts in order to avoid tax offshore.
New Zealand, foreign trusts and the Panama papers
[8 September 2016]
These reports are of great concern to both the New Zealand Government and the IRD. There is little consolation for the IRD in the statements made by Prime Minister John Key and Revenue Minister Michael Woodhouse, that the OECD had looked at the New Zealand foreign trust rules in the past and had found no concerns.
Interestingly, in a radio interview, Gerard Ryle, a director of ICIJ reportedly stated that he had been looking at the issue of tax havens for years and New Zealand was known to be a “really soft touch”. When asked about his thought on the New Zealand Government ministers’ statements that the country was not a tax haven, Mr Ryle stated that that this was “rubbish”.
Is NZ a tax haven for the rich and dodgy? The Pandora Papers reignite the debate [6 October 2021]
Five years ago, New Zealand was rocked by a document dump which revealed the country played an important role in a money-go-round of tax evasion and money laundering used by the world’s rich and famous and the corrupt and criminal. The Panama Papers outed New Zealand as something of (if technically not quite) a tax haven and led to rapid reform of our foreign trust laws in 2017.
But this week, a far larger leak in the Pandora Papers has again raised questions about whether the country remains a dirty cog in the global engine of money laundering and tax evasion and if those reforms went far enough.
Re the rest of it – you need to read up on foreign trusts. A clue is found in your last reference and talks about the criteria for a foreign trust only being tax free when neither the settlor nor beneficiaries lived, or derived income from New Zealand.
For a few wealthy Kiwis, tax avoidance is a way of life. Sad, if you really think about it – maybe it gives them some small pleasure?
Simon Wilson: Tax avoidance is the ram-raiding of the uber-rich [8 May 2023; premium article]
For a whole day or two last month, sanity prevailed. We discovered the wealthiest among us pay, on average, less than 10 per cent tax on their income, while the rest of us pay more than 20 per cent. There was widespread shock.
There are no ifs, buts or extenuating circumstances about this. It’s wrong. Equity should be a fundamental premise of any tax system: everybody should pay their fair share.
Christchurch builder sentenced for $300,000 tax evasion [24 January 2023]
A builder caught evading more than $300,000 in tax that he deducted from his employees' wages, spent some of the money on Uber Eats and overseas travel.
…
The judge arrived at an end sentence of 12 months' home detention, saying Win avoided jail by a "small margin."
Home detention for tax evasion [24 April 2023]
In sentencing Clark, Judge Snell noted his “astonishment” at the way Clark acted in respect of the court proceedings and said he had taken the matter to every legal challenge he possibly could. He also noted the jury found Clark acted fraudulently “without any difficulty at all”.
Is the only real problem with tax evasion ‘getting caught’? So many thrilling 'stories', and this is a great opportunity to post them here. Will there be more opportunities? I do hope so.
Why poverty in New Zealand is everyone's concern
Liang describes poverty as a "heritable condition" that perpetuates and amplifies through generations: "It is also not hard to see how individual poverty flows into communities and society, with downstream effects on economics, crime and health, as well as many other systems. Loosen one strand and everything else unravels."
A Kete Half Empty Poverty is your problem, it is everyone's problem, not just those who are in poverty. – Rebecca, a child from Te Puru
Parker said new information from Inland Revenue showed an almost 50% spike in income subject to the trustee rate when the new 39% personal income tax rate came into effect.
The amount going through trusts had jumped from $11.4 billion in the 2020 tax year to $17.1b in the 2021 tax year – a $5.7b increase.
“The report also shows that a substantial number of the super-wealthy funnel their income through trusts which minimises their tax bill. This change remedies that,” Parker said.
Parker said the change would improve the fairness of the tax system.
Seems fair to me – have NAct promised to reverse it yet? Not paying your fair share of tax is an optional perk of wealth the world over.
"If you believe that "the use of trusts" and "tax avoidance" are whole different conversations, then I have an old car to sell you" – DMK
They are completely different. – LB
Nope. The clue is in the title of the article about that “silly“, “faulty and shoddy” (in your opinion) report, specifically – "spike in trust use to avoid tax."
"Nope. The clue is in the title of the article about that “silly“, “faulty and shoddy” report, specifically – "spike in trust use to avoid tax.""
Your link is to an article that includes this pearler:
Auckland University law professor Mark Henaghan said the increase was down to one thing – a growing awareness of how trusts could be used to reduce tax bills."
Seriously? The good professor ought to know there are a) many reasons people put homes in trusts that have nothing to do with tax, and b) any use of trusts to lower tax could easily be mirrored by other vehicles. Find better sources, Drowsy.
"If you believe that "the use of trusts" and "tax avoidance" are whole different conversations, then I have an old car to sell you" – DMK
They are completely different. – LB
It appears you are firmly of the opinion that "the use of trusts" and "tax avoidance" "are completely different", so let's agree to disagree. Others can make up their own mind after considering the evidence.
Tax bill improves fairness at home and abroad
[18 May 2023]
“The trustee tax change will align the trustee tax rate with the top personal tax rate of 39 per cent. There is evidence that high income earners have shifted their income to trusts to avoid the top personal rate.
“This change will mainly affect the super-trusts of the super-wealthy. In the 2021 tax year, 5 per cent of all trusts that earned some income earned 78 per cent of all trustee income. The change does not ordinarily target smaller family trusts, who can continue to use existing rules to allocate trust income to beneficiaries to be taxed at their personal rates.
Having a trust is not always evidence of an attempt to rort or tax evasion. Taking advantage of Trusts and companies set-ups is not prima facie an indication of wanting to rort.
It is only a rort really when tax is evaded.
The financial planning for tradespeople can often include trusts and companies. The prudent financial planning for people who have children from a prior relationship and/or assets from a prior relationship often use the Trust avenue to protect the children should a subsequent relationship break down. I mean why should a subsequent husband/wife be entitled to assets from a prior husband/parent who worked so hard?
Trust have always paid a higher tax rate so keeping assets for children in this way is not all beer and skittles. Neither is making payouts to beneficiaries, despite what is being said here. (There is pretty onerous record keeping involved) Many trusts have assets that are not liquid and cannot do that anyway. Many settlors of Trusts keep the assets within the trust and so any earnings are taxed at a higher rate.
I have no problem with a higher rate for tax for Trusts but long term it is not going to yield big bucks….better to spend the time and money on ways to catch the evading group (ie the large group paying less than a person on the lowest income rates, or to look at a capital gains or wealth tax or even a modest death duties regime.
I appreciate railing at the so-called tax and Trust bogey does fit in with the depression inducing cry 'its not fair' but ultimately it gets us nowhere.
"Having a trust is not always evidence of an attempt to rort or tax evasion."
"I appreciate railing at the so-called tax and Trust bogey does fit in with the depression inducing cry 'its not fair' but ultimately it gets us nowhere."
That article is full of nonsense. Take this statement:
"Because trust income can be spread across a number of beneficiaries, who are often lower earners, the income is often taxed at a lower bracket, he says."
The author fails to understand that exactly the same result can be achieved without a trust.
Which I have linked previously…The whole Mega landlord series from Stuff (who I actually rate) lifts the rock from the land"lord". Exposing what has happened to NZ.
If a property is transferred to a trust the income from that property is taxed at a much lower rate if the beneficiaries are children, than would be the case if the parents themselves continued to own the properties, and paid tax on the income from those properties at their own tax rate; assuming of course that the children's tax rates are much lower than the parents (which of course is normally the case). The parents can then charge the children for their upkeep, and be compensated thereby from their children's trust income.
It should be mandated that parents support their children themselves rather than turning that support over to a trust.
Incorrect. If the assets are held within the trust it does not matter who the proposed beneficiaries are and what their individual tax circumstances are.
So a Family Trust with a range of possible beneficiaries pays tax at the tax rate for trusts, now the highest rate. The process for allocating to beneficiaries is time- and document- intensive & the benefits so marginal, for my family Trust anyway. This is because many of the beneficiaries the Trust could allocate to now have marginal tax rates above the lowest personal tax rate, that we have not bothered.
NB One of a common way of avoding tax is simply not to pay PAYE for employees or FBT etc. While these crimes, when caught, are heavily penalised, that the financial state of many of these people ensure that tax to pay and penalties can be repaid on the 'never, never' or even if bankruptcy ensues may be paid a low rates in the $$$$
And even then, any distributions to beneficiaries attract tax at their personal tax rate, so at the top end, the 39c applies eventually anyway. Trust income can only escape the higher rate if it is retained in the Trust. The lifting of the rate is largely symbolic.
High-earning New Zealanders moved nearly $6b income a year into trusts after the Government introduced a new 39 percent personal tax rate – but now Inland Revenue will chase it down
Indeed, nothing ‘symbolic’ about $350m a year. The “m” is not a symbol but a prefix that means one has to add another six zeros to get the real figure, in real dollars.
Not going after this money would indeed be tantamount to ‘waste’, so you should be fully behind it, yet you are not, which is rather odd and counter-intuitive.
My comment was a specific reply and specifically mentioned the nearly $6b income a year by high-earning New Zealanders. (NB the “b” prefix means that you add nine zeros to the figure) So, why are you diverting, again? Instead of putting up a decent argument you divert and/or post a wall of selective quotes or links, which is your MO here.
You seem to have a real bee in your bonnet about the increase in trustee tax but no compelling counter-arguments!? Go figure!
"My comment was a specific reply and specifically mentioned the nearly $6b income a year by high-earning New Zealanders."
My comment referred to the lifting of the trust tax rate as symbolic. I then went on to demonstrate precisely how insignificant the $35m is in the context of the budget in which it was introduced. Your $6bn is irrelevant and a diversion.
"Not going after this money would indeed be tantamount to ‘waste’…"
No, it really wouldn't. As I have pointed out, there is a real chance this change could raise little additional or even less revenue.
It’s neither irrelevant nor a diversion (nice try!) but at the core of the Government decision:
“Ministers made clear then that if analysis indicated high income earners were circumventing the rate through greater use of trusts, the Government would move to address this issue.
“New information from Inland Revenue has shown an almost 50 percent spike in income subject to the trustee rate, from $11.4 billion in the 2020 tax year to $17.1 billion in the 2021 tax year. [my italics]
I then went on to demonstrate precisely how insignificant the $35m is in the context of the budget in which it was introduced.
Well, if you keep dropping zeroes it will become insignificant. However, your incorrect $35m (the correct figure still is $350m) is neither ‘symbolic’ nor ‘insignificant’ and you have ‘demonstrated’ only that you’re a disingenuous troll.
"It’s neither irrelevant nor a diversion (nice try!) but at the core of the Government decision:"
The estimated benefit from the change is $350m. I demonstrated clearly that is immaterial (and therefore symbolic) when I compared this amount to three seperate benchmarks…a) the total amount of additional tax estimated over the next four years, b) the total trustee income from 2021, and c) the % of top income earners the new 'top tax rate' would effect.
I have also demonstrated (if you had bothered to read through the thread) that the $350m may end up being much less or even zero.
You either don't have the understanding of this subject to engage in an informed matter, or you're just being a dick for the sake of it. I'll go with the latter. It's in your MO.
[You want us to believe that $6b yearly income by high-earning New Zealanders and that could net $350m in extra tax could magically disappear and become zero even, which would indeed be ‘insignificant’ as you claim. High-earning means that they are or should already be paying 39% tax on any profit, be it from a Trust or elsewhere, and regardless of how they distribute the profit. The fact that Trustee tax was 33% strongly suggests (!) that those high-earning individuals saw a strong enough reason in moving about $6b of their yearly income into Trusts. If this wasn’t a legal loophole used by high-earning New Zealanders then I’d agree that the move is ‘symbolic’. However, the numbers suggest this to be unlikely and implausible. Have the Opposition declared yet that they will repeal the decision? If not, why not? Stop trolling and stop dicking around – only because I’ve been busy you’ve got this far with your trollish claims (e.g. your BS allegation about this government wasting money on “a movie about a Green party MP” here: https://thestandard.org.nz/nationals-policy-machine-is-a-thing-to-behold/#comment-1950174). This is your warning – Incognito]
"You want us to believe that $6b yearly income by high-earning New Zealanders and that could net $350m in extra tax could magically disappear and become zero even, which would indeed be ‘insignificant’ as you claim."
Well, on the issue of significance, I'll quote Grant Robertson, who seems to agree with my assessment:
"The additional $350 million a year pales in comparison with the overall tax take, he says."
"He says 78 percent of all trustee income is earned by the top 5 percent of trusts – that’s $13.3b out of $17.1b. “This is about a small group of New Zealanders paying a little more as a result of this."
A small amount of NZ'ers. The vast majority of trusts aren't set up by the rich, and only a small number of trusts will pay the extra tax.
That should have rung alarm bells right there. Most trusts are for the benefit of less than wealthy NZ'ers, who will simply distribute all income (rather than potentially retaining some income in the trust and paying a higher tax rate) to beneficiaries on a lower tax rate.
And here's the kicker…the $350m is exactly 6% of the $6bn, meaning they are suggesting they will collect the extra tax on every cent of that income. They are dreaming.
[I can’t see anywhere where commenters here on TS and/or Grant Robertson said or implied that $350m extra tax intake is ‘insignificant’ and ‘symbolic’. It would indeed raise serious questions as to why Robertson would have made the decision if this were the case. My take is that you are twisting words & meanings & intentions, as per usual, to score your points. Essentially, you want us to believe that those high-earning New Zealanders – and you keep diverting away from this specific sub-category – shifted nearly $6b of their yearly income into Trusts and they will now hand over control of those Trust assets/income to others just to avoid paying any tax on it (“even zero”!? The mind just boggles at your naivety! Time will tell how that $6b of yearly income will be taxed or ‘vanish’ from the IRD radar, as you seem to want us believe. Frankly, I have enough of your gaslighting days here on TS and I reaffirm your Mod note and don’t want to waste anymore of my Mod time on this – Incognito]
"I can’t see anywhere where commenters here on TS and/or Grant Robertson said or implied that $350m extra tax intake is ‘insignificant’ and ‘symbolic’. "
Re Grant Robertson:
You didn't look very hard. From my comment you were moderating:
""The additional $350 million a year pales in comparison with the overall tax take, he says."
'Pales in comparison'.
Re: Other contributors:
I didn't claim they "implied that $350m extra tax intake is ‘insignificant’ and ‘symbolic’". Look back at comment https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-20-05-2023/#comment-1950730.
There are a number of other contributors here who have concurred with a variety of opinions I have proffered across this thread.
"you want us to believe that those high-earning New Zealanders – and you keep diverting away from this specific sub-category – shifted nearly $6b of their yearly income into Trusts and they will now hand over control of those Trust assets/income to others just to avoid paying any tax on it (“even zero”!?)
Tax is not paid on the assets in a trust, or even necessarily by those who exercise control over those assets. Tax is paid on the income from the trust (either by the trust or by beneficiaries on distribution). That $6bn you refer to will simply find its way to beneficiaries with a lower tax rate, or into other vehicles.
[I’m not too surprised that you continue to waste my time and keep digging & doubling down and now denying your own comments aka gaslighting, twisting & turning.
Have it your way: take 10 days off for ignoring several warnings about trolling and wasting moderator time – Incognito]
But if you don't need any operational income from the Trust for personal use like paying for groceries, rent, power etc., you can leave the money in the Trust. And the Trust re-invests it and earns more income at the same discounted tax rate, which you then re-invest in a spiral of increasing wealth accumulation. The accumulated wealth might not be dispersed for years, or to the next generation, where lower personal tax rates might apply.
The money-grubbing classes are very good at this sort of game – they always find a way of getting an advantage over others. Like a sewage leak, the rest of us have only a vague, passing sense that something whiffs a bit, then you pull up the floorboards and realise the whole edifice is rotten.
Because it is essentially a tax dodge. There are many shady loopholes in the tax system: this is one of them. Unfortunately the measure introduced in the budget will not achieve much because it doesn't address the main problem.
When did the ship sail? How long ago and what were the reasons for her departure? In a similar analogy, the reasons for emigration by ship in the 19th century ranged from a search for freedom and personal advancement to colonial exploitation.
Yonks ago. For years (from 2010) the highest personal tax rate was 33%, so there was no tax advantage. Before that – from the 1980's through to 2000 the highest personal tax rate was also 33%.
Look at it this way: if trusts were abolished and everyone paid the correct amount of tax on the income they derived from their assets – rents, dividends, profits, etc., would you consider they were being unfairly treated? No? But that is what is happening when income is passed to beneficiaries whose tax rate is lower. And “protecting assets” is often just a weasel word for diddling one’s creditors, including the IRD.
Yes. There are some legitimate uses for trusts, but when there is a stampede to form trusts when the top tax rate is increased from 33% to 39%, one can hardly be blamed for being suspicious.
No it isn't. Asset protection is precisely what it says. People with assets (eg property) put them into family trusts to protect them from matrimonial property claims, not tax.
No it isn't. Asset protection is precisely what it says. People with assets (eg property) put them into family trusts to protect them from matrimonial property claims, not tax.
Oh – is this where you pretend that someone so ungenerous as not to share with an intimate partner embraces the IRD like a soulmate and gives them everything they're due?
Oh you sweet summer child! Naive even by the standards of the irredeemably stupid Right.
"Oh – is this where you pretend that someone so ungenerous as not to share with an intimate partner embraces the IRD like a soulmate and gives them everything they're due?
Not necessarily just partners or spouses. Sometimes people establish trusts to protect assets from future partners of their children. You should read up on it.
Zoom……if the so-called 'intimate partner' is so ungenerous to find a new partner while still married to the first and claims the assets built up by a prior spouse/partner for the children of that marriage.
You do not appear to know what happens on marriage break-up. I had to get another mortgage to pay my former husband out. Payment being made as a single person is very different from two working and being able to pay and is pretty poor when he had not contributed half of the value….
But you go the way with the fluffy ducks and the perfect marital bliss. It does not work that way sometimes in the real world and some of us in the real world do actually want to live in the homes we built up.
And the Trust re-invests it and earns more income at the same discounted tax rate, which you then re-invest in a spiral of increasing wealth accumulation.
I somehow don't think that paying the higest rate of tax is a discounted rate!
Not all people who set up a Family Trust fall into the categories you are throwing around. I worked hard to save and get ahead and after paying out a husband who was quite happy to take half of the 'wealth' in the home I had on marriage and which he moved into I saw sense and set up a Trust to protect myself and family. I had to re mortgage the house and pay for it again. This was with all the care to separate our earnings at the time.
But you go on slamming people who have Family Trusts.
It has meant that that the earnings in the Trust are taxed at much higher rates than I would have had if I was earning but the Trust has protected me and what I have worked hard for.
The real problem, as opposed to the philosphical problem that some see of so-called 'rich pricks' and their 'mega property deals', like me apparently, is people like this:
This bloke did not pay lawful deductions made on behalf of IRD for employees kiwisaver etc and there does not appear to be any chance that he will. I mean going to prison is hardly likely to get the lost money into employees KS accounts.
I think IRD is onto the Trust tax dodgers quite promptly whereas with people like this it can take at least a year, if PAYE is paid annually for something to be seen as amiss.
With employee pay software able to generate payments to IRD weekly, fortnightly or monthly etc it is time a bit of legislative force was used to make all employers pay IRD regularly. I know large employers can be required to pay IRD for PAYE etc more than annually but looking at this person you can see how a smaller employer who is not prepared to play by the rules can have a debt mount up.
As the daughter of two accountants i know that some scummy employers do use their employees PAYE/KS etc payments to meet cash flow problems and to bankroll expansion. Hoping on the never-never that the ship might come in with additional money to fix it up before year end. Sometimes though the ship salis away and doesn't come back.
My dad had views that this is theft from IRD and a brake on the amount of money that could be used to run the country. He told his clients this and those who were not prepared to mend their ways duirng the year were dropped.
As far as my Trust is concerned the piece of mind that this has brought has been immense and I know that the Trust pays more in tax than I would pay personally but this is a small price to pay. As a retiree I am not able to meet a mortgage to pay anyone out and staying put where I am means much to me.
I don't have a trust, and no desire to have one. The notion that people with trusts are rich pricks trying to avoid tax is a common misconception among left wingers. It's part of the whole tall poppy thing we suffer from in this country.
You are 100% correct. Unfortunately the people you are responding to have zero interest in learning anything. Their motives come from a different place.
You're probably thinking of squat poppies – those morally stunted and undeserving persons that, at every opportunity, seek to avoid their social responsibilities, and imagine that, when called out, that they are victims.
Parker either doesn't have a clue, or he is simply dishonest. It showed in the silly report he had compiled about the proportion of income tax paid by the wealthy.
And I'll quote from the article:
”The Government is trying to justify this tax hike by pointing to the most wealthy,” he said. “But those people can keep money within company structures and pay the 28% company tax rate. In reality this tax grab will hit small business owners who often hold business in trusts for legitimate reasons.”
As for the quote @9:06 pm yesterday, the Taxpayers' Union's campaigns manager Callum Purves might very well say that…
Imo there's nothing honourable about tax avoidance – absolutely nothing.
Trustee tax increase 'is response to spike in trust use to avoid tax' [18 May 2023]
Australia, Canada, the United Kingdom, and the United States had broadly comparable tax regimes and trust laws to New Zealand, and all align their trustee tax rates with their top personal tax rates.
…
“The $5.7b spike in income taxed at the 33% trustee rate in the first year of the 39% top marginal tax rate is all the evidence that the Government needed to respond.”
On the other hand, the increase in the trustee tax rate to 39% with effect from 1 April 2024 should not have come as a surprise. Inland Revenue recommended the trustee rate should also be increased to 39% when the top personal income tax rate of 39% was introduced in 2021. It was only a matter of time before the trustee rate rose and the publication of Inland Revenue’s High Wealth Individual Research Project provided a clear opportunity for the Government to do so.
In the accompanying press release announcing the measure Minister of Revenue David Parker noted that new Inland Revenue information shows a near 50% increase in trust income taxable at the trustee rate from $11.4 billion in the 2020 tax year to $17.1 billion in the 2021 tax year. The top 5% of trusts with taxable income accounted for $13.3 billion or 78% of all trustee income in the 2021 tax year.
Ah, then that is the study that found "those paying the highest average effective tax rate were single, unemployed people in rented accommodation." Nice to have that cleared up.
The study done for tax consultancy OliverShaw – not a lot of "single, unemployed people in rented accommodation" on their books, to be fair.
OliveShaw – contact us today
Tax Advisory Services Tax advisory for corporate clients, corporate boards, high net worth individuals and accounting firms. https://olivershaw.co.nz/
BTW, this is about the research methodology and findings:
"Leading tax consultancy OliverShaw commissioned Australasian consulting firm, Sapere Research Group, to prepare a report on the effective rates of tax that New Zealand’s tax and benefit systems impose on the incomes of its residents. The 263-page report adopted the standard modelling methodologies used in the OECD Taxing Wages study to review the income and tax of illustrative households to calculate the average effective tax rates paid by low, medium and high-income earners in New Zealand.
“One of the questions asked is whether the very wealthy pay taxes at the same or higher rate than middle income earners,” says OliverShaw Principal, Robin Oliver. “This research shows clearly that, whether you consider taxable income or other measures, such as economic income, the answer is: ‘Yes, they do.’ The key conclusion of the Report is: “Average effective tax rates increase as the net real economic incomes of households increase.”
A far better study is the Oliver Shaw research. – LB @2:49 pm
LB, why is the Sapere study “a far better study“, in your opinion?
Tax and the economic income of the wealthy – April 2023 [PDF]
In 2022 Te Tari Taake, Inland Revenue, researched how much tax the wealthiest families in New Zealand pay compared to their economic income.
About this research
The research was done to fill in gaps in New Zealand’s understanding of the taxation and income of the wealthiest New Zealanders.
Inland Revenue gathered a lot of information from 311 of the wealthiest families in New Zealand. These families generally have a net worth of more than $50m.
This information cannot be accessed by anyone except a small project team, and will not be used for tax compliance or audit activity.
Inland Revenue also used information it already had or was publicly available
Main finding
The effective tax rate (tax paid divided by economic income) of the families we researched varied considerably, depending on how their economic income was gained from 2015 to 2021. The median (middle) effective tax rate was 8.9%.
Explanation
Compared to the rest of the population, the wealthiest people in New Zealand tend to earn more through their investments rather than from a salary or wage. The graph over the page shows the personal taxable income of the wealthiest families in New Zealand alongside
other forms of economic income.
Capital gains
Personal taxable income is only a small part of the economic income of the wealthiest New Zealand families.
Most of the capital gains made by the researched families came through increases in the value of businesses they own or control. However, economic income gained from businesses, property, and financial portfolios all had a similar impact on lowering their
effective tax rate. This group hold many of their assets in trust.
Sixty-seven percent of the economic income made by the wealthiest families in New Zealand is made in trusts.
The results in this note can be compared with those estimated by Inland Revenue’s 2023 High‑Wealth Individuals Research Project (the Inland Revenue Project), which crucially does include company taxes, trustee income, and trustee taxes in their measures. The Inland Revenue Project investigates EATRs from a cohort of New Zealand families identified as having high net worth for New Zealand, who are unlikely to be sampled by HES and, therefore, are unlikely to be included in our EATR estimates.
Together, these two projects will create a more complete picture of EATRs across the income and wealth distributions. Our HES-based modelling will provide EATRs by different income and demographic groups, including the median New Zealand family. By comparison, the Inland Revenue Project will provide insight into EATRs for the wealthiest New Zealand families. We find our most comparable population median EATRs to be consistently higher than those calculated for the high-wealth population in the Inland Revenue Project.
Your appeal to authority shows your bias. DMK rightly pointed out a possible conflict of interest that may cloud the judgement or bias the opinion of ‘the man’. This is not ‘playing the man’ per se but a good counter attack when you’ve run out of arguments and refuse to agree to disagree and insist on scoring points. Context is important, but you seem to apply it only when it suits you.
This week I’m joined by Shamubeel Eaqub, a partner at the boutique economic consultancy Sense Partners. Shamubeel is a regular commentator on economics and is the author of several books including Generation Rent. Kia ora Shamubeel, welcome to the podcast. It's been an interesting week, we've had three major reports on the true tax rate paid by the wealthy on their economic income. What have you made of all this? Are we any the wiser after these three reports?
Shamubeel Eaqub (SE): I think we are much wiser. I think we've all always suspected that the rich were not required to pay tax on a lot of their incomes. But we didn't know how much income or how much wealth there was. So, the report by IRD in particular, I think was really useful to get a much better understanding of the survey of high wealth individuals and families. Just how rich they were and just how much income they were earning from wealth alone. The report that came out the previous week from Sapere and OliverShaw Consulting I think was really poor.
I think the official report laid bare those conjectures and I think fairly largely lobbying efforts that was done in the Sapere report.
Terry Baucher (TB): Yes, the Sapere report was something, I've described it elsewhere as fairly indigestible. You had the complete difference in the conclusions the Sapere report reached that broadly speaking the wealthy were paying a fair amount of tax in line with middle income New Zealand. By contrast the reports from Treasury and Inland Revenue which show a completely different picture, with Inland Revenue concluding the median income tax rate on economic income was 8.9%, I think that raised a lot of eyebrows.
1. The IRD report is effectively a survey of 311 families. As David Reddell points out:
"we don’t tax families, we tax individuals, and most of the families studied in this report included two spouses/partners. The median individual wealth is going to have been quite a bit lower than $106 million."
2. The IRD survey didn't take into account that in NZ, tax on property is already above the OECD median. In fcat , as David Reddel notes, that was one OECD chart left out of the IRD report. Conveniently.
3. The IRD survey includes unearned (unrealised and hypothetical) income for those individuals, but exclude that same unearned income from other tax payers. David Reddell noted of Parker that
"at his talk yesterday he even seemed attracted to a capital gains tax on unrealised gains, something I’m not aware that any country does on any sort of comprehensive basis"
4. The IRD survey takes no account of the rate of inflation.
As David Reddell states:
"But it was just knowingly dishonest of IRD not to have made the adjustment and to have presented as real income what no economist will regard as real income. But it will have suited their political masters (and perhaps reflected their longstanding institutional unease with an indexed tax system)."
5. The IRD survey takes no account of improvements performed on any of those assets at the tax payers expense.
"transfer income is not treated as a negative tax in our main scenarios,"
Above that comment is table 4.1, which shows that the ETR net of transfers at each decile:
D1: -52%
D2: -55%
D3: -36%
D4: – 2%
D5: 6%
D6: 18%
D7: 21%
D8: 23%
D9: 26%
D10: 29%
The Michael Reddell critique is worth a read, but there are others. The poor quality of the IRD work smacks of political interference. Michael Reddell sums it up in this understated manner:
"Not many government department research papers – and that, we are told, is all it is – get a Foreword from a senior Cabinet minister.
My response (with help from David Reddell…
As David Reddell points out…
In fcat [sic], as David Reddel [sic] notes…
David Reddell noted of Parker that…
As David Reddell states…
The Michael Reddell critique is worth a read…
Michael Reddell sums it up in this understated manner…
LB, if you believe this wealth distribution is sustainable in the face of climate change, pandemics, food scarcity, war, environmental and economic crises et al., then I have an old car to sell you.
The point is, we can improve. And the starting point for that is to get over the awkwardness and start acknowledging the problem.
(Cough Cough)
"Hey, aaah… do you reckon we could pass something down for these guys over here?"
Sorry – getting David Parker and Michael Reddell conflated! But your pithy comment about economists and lawyers is of course quite true!
"f you think this wealth distribution is sustainable …'
Wealth and income are not the same thing and not always directly related. Nevertheless, your comment is a great segue, because the political messaging around the IRD study has cleverly conflated wealth and income to create a faux justification for more taxation.
The IRD report is fundamentally about the fairness or otherwise tax paid on income, not wealth. In fact it goes to great pains to justify itself by classifying unearned and frankly 'phantom' gains as 'income', when (ASGFIK) nowhere in the world is unearned income treated this way.
And David Parker further stokes this confusion in his opinion piece foreward:
"But these sample surveys do not provide the information we need on the true wealth – and, therefore, total income – of the wealthiest families, and the taxes they pay on that income."
Wealth and income are not the same, and Parker knows it.
Further to this, the ETR table clearly shows the tax system in NZ is already achieving significant income redistribution. We are at a point where the highest income earners pay a hugely distportionate amount of the total tax take, and a much higher ETR than low-income earners.
LB, for all the huff and puff that "the IRD report is fundamentally about the fairness or otherwise [of]tax paid on income, not wealth", isn't it up to the IRD to say what the IRD report is fundamentally about?
There are many ways to gain this money. Most people work and are paid salary or wages. Often people talk about this as their ‘income’, and it is always taxed.
Many people have investments, like savings accounts, shares or KiwiSaver. Some start businesses. Others make money by buying something of value, often property or a business, which they could sell later. Each of these things are taxed differently.
When you add up all the ways people gain the ability to spend money, that is called their ‘economic income’.
'Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.'
– from David Copperfield, by Charles Dickens
Not knowing the first thing about economics or accounting (as long as I've got enough money to get by, I'm happy), I googled the term 'economic income', and apparently it's a thing – go figure.
Estimating the Distribution of Wealth in New Zealand
[April 2023; PDF[
Information on wealth is also important for understanding economic income, and by extension the distributional properties of tax and transfer systems and of other economic and social policy. The Haig-Simons definition of economic income is annual consumption plus (or minus) annual wealth gained (or lost), which can be estimated only with knowledge of the wealth distribution and how it changes over time.
There is growing evidence internationally that official statistics derived from household surveys underestimate top wealth shares (Balestra & Tonkin, 2018; Vermeulen, 2018; Lustig, 2019). In response, several alternative methods have been developed to estimate the wealth distribution, often making use of supplementary datasets, such as Rich Lists (Vermeulen, 2018) or tax data (Saez & Zucman, 2016, 2022; Smith, Zidar, & Zwick, 2023), to correct for top wealth underestimation. This paper sits within this body of literature on estimating the distribution and evolution of wealth.
High Wealth Individuals research project – Look beyond the noise [17 April 2023] Effective tax rate dependent on measure of income used
An effective tax rate measures tax paid relative to a measure of income. What is included or not included within the relevant income measure will significantly impact the stated effective tax rate. This seems obvious when spelled out but easy to get lost in the hype of the moment – many will be guilty by comparison of the results to the statutory tax rates. The problem with this is that our current tax base does not tax all gains or notions of economic income.
IR’s HWI project included four separate base measures of income:
Taxable income – Broadly the income taxpayers are currently taxed on with the addition of fringe benefits Gross cash income – Taxable income + untaxed monetary receipts + untaxed realised capital gains + net gifts and windfalls (inheritances and other lump sum payments) Comprehensive income– Gross cash income + accrued capital gains on assets not sold Economic income – Comprehensive income + imputed rental income for owner-occupied property
Hmm – while there might be bugger all diferrence between 'taxable income' and 'economic income' for much of the population most of the time, I can see why 'high wealth individuals', and their accountants, might have 'concerns' about using economic income to calculate a median effective tax rate of 9.8%.
While the prime minister has said there would be "targeted support for those that need it most with the rising cost of living", this hardly points to broader systemic change. If a cost-of-living crisis is seen as a short-term economic condition, deeper problems aren't addressed.
More fundamentally, it goes against a key purpose of these targets: to have the government set goals and make budget decisions that show it takes these targets seriously.
If this or any future budget fails to project any impact on child poverty, those targets risk becoming nothing more than a Treasury spreadsheet exercise.
"isn't it up to the IRD to say what the IRD report is fundamentally about?"
Of course. My emphasis added.
"This report describes the outcomes of the High-Wealth Individuals Research Project (the Project). It contributes to this literature by investigating how much tax a group of high-wealth New Zealand families pay relative to their income – that is, their average effective tax rates (ETRs)."
and
"This report breaks new ground as ETRs for the high-wealth families (the Project population) are calculated by combining tax administration data, public data and survey data collected specifically for this Project."
The report is a 'project' about ETR's, and as table 4.1 shows, the TWG found that higher income earners pay considerable higher ETR's than those on lower incomes.
"I googled the term 'economic income', and apparently it's a thing – go figure."
It is. But is it ever used in taxing individuals? And if the IRD or David Parker were remotely honest, they would have taken into account the economic income of every earner in NZ, not just the one class they wanted to highlight.
"I can see why 'high wealth individuals', and their accountants, might have 'concerns' about using economic income"
I don't know whether they are concerned or not. But I can see why Parker and the IRD would be far less amendable to repeating study and including the impacts of the past year or so, with asset values (particularly house prices and managed funds) having fallen.
The entire exercise was political, with a predetermined outcome built in to its methodology. It was dishonest but it got the headlines the government wanted, so perhaps they're happy.
So far you've taken issue with: the [dishonest, silly, faulty and shoddy] IRD report; Attorney-General David Parker [stokes confusion and either doesn't have a clue, or is simply dishonest]; Auckland University law professor Mark Henaghan; an article on ‘Mega Landlords: 48 per cent rise in homes owned by trustees 'suggests tax avoidance' [full of nonsense]; and our Govt [The way this government wastes money, it's a drop in the bucket.]
Imho the report on the IRD project outcomes is interesting, but anyone can read this 2-page summary [PDF] and decide for themself.
The report is a 'project' about ETR's, and as table 4.1 shows, the TWG found that higher income earners pay considerable higher ETR's than those on lower incomes. – LB
The purpose of the project is no mystery, and what Table 4.1 shows is stated clearly on page 31 of the full report.
CHAPTER 1 PROJECT PURPOSE
Introduction
1.1 This report describes the outcomes of the High-Wealth Individuals Research Project (the Project). This is a research project carried out by Inland Revenue,
on the average effective tax rates (ETRs) of high-wealth New Zealand families, based on a comprehensive definition of income.
…
Table 4.1 below shows ETRs, as calculated by the TWG, based on both personal income tax and GST. The concept of income used here (total income) is similar
to taxable income. Unlike ETRs based on economic income, these ETRs do not comprehensively take account of untaxed sources of income, such as capital
gains.
But is it [economic income] ever used in taxing individuals? – LB
Elements of economic income are used in many countries for the purposes of taxing individuals. Of the seven happiest countries (all OECD members) in 2021, six had higher Tax-to-GDP ratios than NZ (ranked 9th for happiness) – go figure.
Tax compliance, public spending and happiness in Europe
[16 December 2021; summary only]
The design of policies aimed at improving individual, corporate and the well-being of nations needs them to incorporate elements of tax compliance as an objective that has economic and social implications. Individuals and corporates contribute to a fairer and more equitable society through compliance with tax obligations.
I don't know whether they ['high wealth individuals', and their accountants] are concerned [about using 'economic income' to calculate effective tax rates] or not. – LB
Although it is desirable to improve our understanding of both the equity and efficiency of the tax and benefit systems, it is also important to recognise the difficulties and considerable costs of obtaining the information required to develop a more detailed understanding of those effects.
Those costs include the potential unintended effects that such requests for information could have on savings and investments decisions (e.g. by creating a more uncertain environment for investment due to concerns that the government might be considering the introduction of comprehensive taxes on capital gains or wealth).
The reasons for concern about using 'economic income' to calculate the effective tax rates that the very wealthy 'labour' under is obvious.
Our results show that the average ETRs for the Project population, based on economic income, are significantly lower than the average personal taxable income ETR, of around 30%, for the Project population. When all sources of income and tax (except GST) are included, the family median ETR is 8.9% and the weighted-mean ETR is 9.8% (these are measures of the average ETR over the Project period).
Some wealthy individuals think the ETRs calculated using 'economic income' are problematic, and I agree with them.
"for all the huff and puff that "the IRD report is fundamentally about the fairness or otherwise [of] tax paid on income, not wealth", isn't it up to the IRD to say what the IRD report is fundamentally about?"
I answered you with a reference from the report itself.
"Some wealthy individuals think the ETRs calculated using 'economic income' are problematic, and I agree with them."
What is wealthy? Are these the 300 or so families who the report failed to recognise are actually taxed as individuals? If so. which ones? If not, who are these 'wealthy' people who are concerned? Michael Reddell doesn't appear to be wealthy.
"Maybe this excerpt from the Sapere report will help."
Not really. The accountants will be rubbing their hands together at the prospect of a new and complex taxation regime.
The concerns about changes causing a reduction in investment are valid. When low decile income earners enjoy a negative ETR, and higher income earners are carrying an increasingly disproportionate share of the tax burden, money will leave the country. It's another reason the aforesaid accountants will be loving this.
“The notion that people with trusts are rich pricks trying to avoid tax is a common misconception among left wingers.” – LB
Don’t know about “pricks”, but more likely rich than poor, surely?
What is wealthy? Are these the 300 or so families who the report failed to recognise are actually taxed as individuals? If so. which ones? If not, who are these 'wealthy' people who are concerned?
Hmm – maybe a mix of Kiwis, 'concerned' for different reasons?
For example, individuals in the 41 families who wouldn't cooperate with the IRD project, might be 'concerned' about over-taxation.
The big money up against Parker [27 April 2023]
Nearly 12 per cent (41) of the 352 families [each] with an estimated net worth of at least $20 million did not agree to respond even though the Tax Administration Act makes such surveys compulsory.
The survey started in November 2021, and the questioning was over by May last year.
As early as November 2021, there were reports that high-net-worth individuals were seeking legal advice to avoid having to participate.
At about the same time, substantial donations from some of the country’s wealthiest individuals began to flow to the National Party.
Inevitably it pitches the ordinary taxpayer against the very wealthy and National leader Christopher Luxon yesterday defended the ultra-wealthy. “It’s not the wealthy that are the problem here,” he said.
[Imagine that – National leader Luxon defending the ultra-wealthy – whatever next?!]
The IRD study found that the 311 high net-worth families had paid, on average, 8.9 per cent of their economic income (as distinct from their wages and salaries income) in tax.
While other wealthy Kiwis are concerned about under-taxation. You may not agree with wealthy Kiwis who want to pay more tax, but everyone can appreciate their point of view.
Group of wealthy New Zealanders ask to be taxed more in open letter to Government [11 May 2023]
A sobering report last month showed the wealthiest New Zealanders were paying taxes at half the rate of the average middle-class bracket.
…
In Germany, people who earn €277,826 (about NZ$479,000) or more pay a top tax rate of 45 percent. In comparison, the Netherlands' top income tax rate of nearly 50 percent kicks in far lower at €73,031 (NZ$126,000).
New Zealand's top income tax rate is 39 percent on $180,000 and above.
The letter acknowledges ongoing issues that "will require a bigger tax contribution from those who can afford it," including future-proofing infrastructure from natural disasters such as Cyclone Gabrielle, and helping fund social services at a time where one in seven kiwi children live in poverty.
It is in direct response to two reports released by Inland Revenue and Treasury on April 26, which found that 311 of Aotearoa's richest families pay an effective tax rate of 9.4%, less than half of the 20.2% rate paid by the general population.
Diana Crossan, a former high level public servant and ex-Retirement Commissioner, is a spokesperson for the campaign is. She said the New Zealand tax system doesn't collect enough money.
"We collect in our taxes somewhere around 32% of GDP and in European countries, Germany for example, it is 38%, the Netherlands 40%.
"We just don't pay the same amount of taxes as they do in other countries and we expect to have the same health system, and the same roads, the same clear rivers, the same housing and so on."
Les Mills executive director Phillip Mills said the current tax system was “broken”.
“We’ve been focused too much for too long on paying lower and lower taxes. We need to focus more on having a world-class education system and not having people living in poverty and children coming to school not having enough to eat.”
Mills said wealthy people should be paying more than they were. He would be in favour of both a capital gains tax and wealth tax.
He says it is “bad for the economy to be tax-advantaging asset classes like residential property”.
Sir Ian Taylor said there was so much talk about tax being a burden and not enough people thought about the benefits it could deliver for better access to healthcare, education and infrastructure.
Tax has been a topic of discussion in recent weeks following the Inland Revenue department’s research which found the wealthiest New Zealanders paid 8.9% tax on their incomes, on average.
A separate released by Treasury found that the country’s wealthiest 1% own more than a quarter of the country’s wealth.
"Don’t about “pricks”, but more likely rich than poor, surely?"
Somewhere in between.
"The top five percent of trusts with some taxable income in the 2021 tax year accounted for 78 percent of all trustee income ($13.3 billion out of $17.1 billion). "
As others have noted here, most trusts are family trusts, set up as vehicles to protect assets for future generations. The 'rich prick with a trust' attutide is alive and well, and ignorant.
"For example, individuals in the 41 families who wouldn't cooperate with the IRD project, might be 'concerned' about over-taxation."
Might be. Might be concerned at the government using (to quote Michael Reddell) the "coercive powers of the state" to prepare a politically motivated attack on success.
"Some of the wealthiest Kiwis in Aotearoa know they pay lower tax rates than most – and have signed a letter explicitly asking to pay more."
There's nothing stopping them. If any of them are reading this, the Treasury bank account is 03-0049-0000327-25. Fill your boots.
Now, how does one get on that 'letter'? Not by being wealthy. It's an Oxfam/Tax Justice Aotearoa publicity stunt. If you're interested you too can self identify as wealthy at An Open Letter on Tax (sharingwealth.nz).
"Don’t [know] about “pricks”, but more likely rich than poor, surely?" – DMK
Somewhere in between. – LB
"The top five percent of trusts with some taxable income in the 2021 tax year accounted for 78 percent of all trustee income ($13.3 billion out of $17.1 billion)."
"Somewhere in between" – cute. So what's the value of income from trusts set up by Kiwis living in poverty? Take your time.
The 'rich prick with a trust' attutide [sic] is alive and well, and ignorant.
You seem very prickly
"For example, individuals in the 41 families who wouldn't cooperate with the IRD project, might be 'concerned' about over-taxation." – DMK
Might be. Might be concerned at the government using (to quote Michael Reddell) the "coercive powers of the state" to prepare a politically motivated attack on success. – LB
Is there a practical diff between concerns about over-taxation, and concern about politically motivated attacks on financial success?
Those such as Seymour, Luxon and yourself, who leap to the defence of poor put-upon wealthy Kiwis, no doubt have the purest of motivations. It must be truely awful being a wealthy Kiwi, when so many people want to tax your wealth.
The point is, we can improve. And the starting point for that is to get over the awkwardness and start acknowledging the problem.
(Cough Cough)
"Hey, aaah… do you reckon we could pass something down for these guys over here?"
Some Kiwis simply can't stomach even the thought of contributing more money to our Govt by way of tax – ‘unfair‘, they cry, Unfair!
Why poverty in New Zealand is everyone's concern
Liang describes poverty as a "heritable condition" that perpetuates and amplifies through generations: "It is also not hard to see how individual poverty flows into communities and society, with downstream effects on economics, crime and health, as well as many other systems. Loosen one strand and everything else unravels."
A Kete Half Empty Poverty is your problem, it is everyone's problem, not just those who are in poverty. – Rebecca, a child from Te Puru
We can scratch deeper if you want.
If you like, but is there any need? Various motives are clear enough. For many wealthy Kiwis, current tax settings are barely tolerable – they already feel over-taxed, and inequality is certainly not their problem. Other wealthy Kiwis take a different view – maybe they're all silly, confused, dishonest, faulty and shoddy?
A taxing exercise for NZ’s wealthiest 0.01 percent
[28 April 2023]
Tax specialists OliverShaw published a report last week finding the more New Zealanders earned, the more they paid in tax – that those earning above $180,000 made up 21.2 percent of taxpayers and paid 68.5 percent of income tax in the 2021 tax year.
But I call BS. For a start, it selectively omitted the impact of GST and excises, which weigh more heavily on those on lower incomes. An earlier IRD report concluded the wealthiest Kiwis paid an effective tax rate of less than 12 percent.
Somewhere in between rich and poor does not include people in poverty, does it?
"Is there a practical diff between concerns about over-taxation, and concern about politically motivated attacks on financial success?"
Of course there is. For example, I'm concerned about both, but for different reasons. I'm concerned about high income earners paying a disproportionate share of tax, because NZ desperately needs investment. I'm concerned about politically motivated attacks on financial success because they are part of an attitude of mediocracy that is prevalent in NZ.
"If you like, but is there any need? "
Well that depends on you. You posited the idea that this letter was the work of 'wealthy' NZ'ers, which is clearly untrue. Doesn't that concern you?
The trustee can distribute, to the beneficiaries, as much, or as little, of the trust's income as he chooses. Only undistributed income is taxed at the trust rate: formerly 33%, now 39%. Distributed income is taxed at the beneficiary's rate, which can be as low as 10.5%.
"Only undistributed income is taxed at the trust rate: formerly 33%, now 39%."
Yes, that's what I've been saying. In my experience most family trusts distribute all of the income annually already. (Many of those are below the 39% threshold). Perversely, if this tax rate change prompts even more to fully distribute, and to beneficiaries on tax rates lower than 33%, it's entirely possible the government won't draw anywhere near the level of additional taxation they are forecasting.
But think of the useful mental health outlet this thread has provided for the 'its not fair' brigade who lump all people with trusts into the category of rich pricks buying mega lots of houses.
Forced birther poured $120k of his own money into an effort to force a recount of a referendum affirming abortion rights, forcing him to cheap-out on the airworthiness of the light aircraft he was rebuilding. Which then crashed and killed him.
A few months before the mid terms…(a) Chicago billionaire had gifted anti-abortion Supreme Court fixer Leonard Leo the largest known tranche of dark money in US history: $1.6 billion
The article goes on to say that that is enough money to fund two of the hugely influential conservative Heritage Foundations plus another sizeable organisation without touching the principle.
Leo is a proud "Knight of the Order of Malta" and his long career has been motivated by a fanatical opposition to women's rights to reproductive choice
What's coming for tens of millions of women is a return to the 19thC.
Directors of women’s health care services at Idaho hospitals are bracing for what’s next: 75 of 117 Idaho OB-GYNs recently surveyed by the Idaho Coalition for Safe Reproductive Health Care said they were considering leaving the state. Of those, nearly 100% — 73 of 75 — cited Idaho’s restrictive abortion laws.
An exodus could affect broader medical coverage for women who rely on OB-GYNs for routine and urgent gynecological care unrelated to pregnancy, like menstrual disorders, endometriosis, and pelvic pain.
Idaho is one of 15 states that have implemented strict abortion laws since last year’s Supreme Court decision overturning Roe v. Wade. And while there is no official nationwide count yet, anecdotal evidence shows that women’s health specialists from states where abortion is criminalized are beginning to relocate to places like Washington state, which has strong abortion rights laws.
Alan-When a cyclone causes 10 billion plus expenses that need fixing asap it is not possible to cut government expenditure unless you are proposing mother of all budget cuts to benefits and other payments that go to the less well off.
If you are getting prescriptions for drugs that are affected by Robertson's proposal there is not a single household that needs to be paying more than $100/year.
An entire household can't save more than $100/year under the scheme even if you were a family with 6 kids and were getting 20 prescriptions/month. Every single one after the first 20 in a year is free,
Rent goes up regardless of economic conditions. It doesn't matter if it's pharmacy fees or cheap offshore labour, rent always and inexorably goes up.
One thing the landlord class is very good at is extracting every last cent out of tenants, for profit. Pity they are not so good at providing housing safe from illness and fire. It's business, you know!
It's all good, renters are used to being abused as second class citizens.
Orcas have attacked and sunk a third boat off the Iberian coast of Europe, and experts now believe the behavior is being copied by the rest of the population.
Three orcas (Orcinus orca), also known as killer whales, struck the yacht on the night of May 4 in the Strait of Gibraltar, off the coast of Spain, and pierced the rudder. "There were two smaller and one larger orca," skipper Werner Schaufelberger told the German publication Yacht. "The little ones shook the rudder at the back while the big one repeatedly backed up and rammed the ship with full force from the side."
Yes Joe90, snap. I had noticed two or three reports of whale attacks in the past six months, and was wondering whether it was Nature fighting back with tooth and fin against humans and that global warming shit.
I have read elsewhere a story where orcas and humans co-operated over decades in fish drives in a harbour somewhere on the Canadian west coast, I think. Until the humans stuffed it up one year somehow, and the pact disintegrated.
A fabulous sight one autumn afternoon years ago was watching a pod of orcas playing around in the Waitematā harbour.
– Has a Non Profit called Child's Health Defence which paid for more than half of the ads on Facebook lying about vaccines, and was then barred from instagram
A deep dive into Jr's dangerous, dishonest lunacy.
/
The only ‘herd immunity’ we need is against abysmal candidates like RFK Jr. He has spent decades as a professional liar and is not the kind of person who should be anywhere near power.
[…]
Let’s establish at the outset that Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is someone who lies constantly in ways that seriously endanger the public. In fact, his lies have probably directly caused people to get sick, and possibly die.
To those who accept the scientific consensus around the efficacy of COVID-19 vaccines, someone like Kennedy can appear to be a mere “nut” or “crank.” But it’s important to understand that anti-vaxxers like Kennedy aren’t just “crazy.” They’re skilled manipulators of statistics who are great at fooling people using pseudoscience. Waving them away as
Trump is too, so not sure of the relevance. Both crazy in different ways so 'you takes your chances and you makes your choice' between whatever flavour you like.
As I have long told my US cousin the choice of the President of the US is far too important to be given to Americans…… when Trump got in we agreed that anyone other than Americans, preferably NZers, should have been given the vote for the US Pres & that way they might have avoided Trump. She's a Democrat but who knows, she's not an anti vaxxer.
Her father on the other hand used to tell all his family here in NZ that he would be coming back to NZ each time a Labour Govt got in, in the UK. But of course he never did.
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Today is May the fourth. Which was just a regular day when my mother took me to see the newly released Star Wars at the Odeon in Rotorua. The queue was right around the corner. Some years later this day became known as Star Wars Day, the date being a ...
Buzz from the Beehive Much more media attention is being paid to something Winston Peters said about former Australian Foreign Minister Bob Carr than to a speech he delivered to the New Zealand China Council. One word is missing from the speech: AUKUS. But AUKUS loomed large in his considerations ...
Is the economy in another long stagnation? If so, why?This is about the time that the Treasury will be locking up its economic forecasts to be published in the 2024 Budget Economic and Fiscal Update (BEFU) on budget day, 30 May. I am not privy to what they will be ...
The annual list of who's been bribing our politicians is out, and journalists will no doubt be poring over it to find the juiciest and dirtiest bribes. The government's fast-track invite list is likely to be a particular focus, and we already know of one company on the list which ...
In the weeks after the October 7 Hamas attacks on Southern Israel I wrote about the possible 2nd, 3rd and even 4th order effects of the conflict. These included new fronts being opened in the West Bank (with Hamas), Golan … Continue reading → ...
Peter Dunne writes – It is one of the oldest truisms that there is never a good time for MPs to get a pay rise. This week’s announcement of pay raises of around 2.8% backdated to last October could hardly have come at a worse time, with the ...
David Farrar writes – Newshub reports: Newshub can reveal a fresh allegation of intimidation against Green MP Julie-Anne Genter. Genter is subject to a disciplinary process for aggressively waving a book in the face of National Minister Matt Doocey in the House – but it’s not the first time ...
The Treasury has published a paper today on the global productivity slowdown and how it is playing out in New Zealand: The productivity slowdown: implications for the Treasury’s forecasts and projections. The Treasury Paper examines recent trends in productivity and the potential drivers of the slowdown. Productivity for the whole economy ...
Winston Peters’ comments about former Australian foreign minister look set to be an ongoing headache for both him and Luxon. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The podcast above of the weekly ‘hoon’ webinar for subscribers features co-hosts and , along with regular guests on Gaza and ...
These puppet strings don't pull themselvesYou're thinking thoughts from someone elseHow much time do you think you have?Are you prepared for what comes next?The debating chamber can be a trying place for an opposition MP. What with the person in charge, the speaker, typically being an MP from the governing ...
The land around Lyme Regis, where Meryl Streep once stood, in a hood, on the Cobb, is falling into the sea.MerylThe land around Lyme Regis, around the Cobb that made it rich, has always been falling slowly but surely into the sea. Read more ...
Buzz from the Beehive Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters was bound to win headlines when he set out his thinking about AUKUS in his speech to the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs. The headlines became bigger when – during an interview on RNZ’s Morning Report today – he criticised ...
The Post reports on how the government is refusing to release its advice on its corrupt Muldoonist fast-track law, instead using the "soon to be publicly available" refusal ground to hide it until after select committee submissions on the bill have closed. Fast-track Minister Chris Bishop's excuse? “It's not ...
As pressure on it grows, the livestock industry’s approach to the transition to Net Zero is increasingly being compared to that of fossil fuel interests. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / Getty ImagesTL;DR: Here’s the top five news items of note in climate news for Aotearoa-NZ this week, and a discussion above ...
The New Zealand Herald reports – Stats NZ has offered a voluntary redundancy scheme to all of its workers as a way to give staff some control over their “future” amidst widespread job losses in the public sector. In an update to staff this morning, seen by the Herald, Statistics New Zealand ...
On Werewolf/Scoop, I usually do two long form political columns a week. From now on, there will be an extra column each week about music and movies. But first, some late-breaking political events:The rise in unemployment numbers for the March quarter was bigger than expected – and especially sharp ...
David Farrar writes – The Herald reports: TVNZ says it is dealing with about 50 formal complaints over its coverage of the latest 1News-Verian political poll, with some viewers – as well as the Prime Minister and a former senior Labour MP – critical of the tone of the 6pm report. ...
Muriel Newman writes – When Meridian Energy was seeking resource consents for a West Coast hydro dam proposal in 2010, local Maori “strenuously” objected, claiming their mana was inextricably linked to ‘their’ river and could be damaged. After receiving a financial payment from the company, however, the Ngai Tahu ...
Alwyn Poole writes – “An SEP,’ he said, ‘is something that we can’t see, or don’t see, or our brain doesn’t let us see, because we think that it’s somebody else’s problem. That’s what SEP means. Somebody Else’s Problem. The brain just edits it out, it’s like a ...
Our trust in our political institutions is fast eroding, according to a Maxim Institute discussion paper, Shaky Foundations: Why our democracy needs trust. The paper – released today – raises concerns about declining trust in New Zealand’s political institutions and democratic processes, and the role that the overuse of Parliamentary urgency ...
This article was prepared for publication yesterday. More ministerial announcements have been posted on the government’s official website since it was written. We will report on these later today …. Buzz from the BeehiveThere we were, thinking the environment is in trouble, when along came Jones. Shane Jones. ...
New Zealand now has the fourth most depressed construction sector in the world behind China, Qatar and Hong Kong. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: These are the six things that stood out to me in news and commentary on Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy at 8:46am on Thursday, May 2:The Lead: ...
Hi,I am just going to state something very obvious: American police are fucking crazy.That was a photo gracing the New York Times this morning, showing New York City police “entering Columbia University last night after receiving a request from the school.”Apparently in America, protesting the deaths of tens of thousands ...
Winston Peters’ much anticipated foreign policy speech last night was a work of two halves. Much of it was a standard “boilerplate” Foreign Ministry overview of the state of the world. There was some hardening up of rhetoric with talk of “benign” becoming “malign” and old truths giving way to ...
Graham Adams assesses the fallout of the Cass Review — The press release last Thursday from the UN Special Rapporteur on violence against women and girls didn’t make the mainstream news in New Zealand but it really should have. The startling title of Reem Alsalem’s statement — “Implementation of ‘Cass ...
This open-for-business, under-new-management cliché-pockmarked government of Christopher Luxon is not the thing of beauty he imagines it to be. It is not the powerful expression of the will of the people that he asserts it to be. It is not a soaring eagle, it is a malodorous vulture. This newest poll should make ...
The latest labour market statistics, showing a rise in unemployment. There are now 134,000 unemployed - 14,000 more than when the National government took office. Which is I guess what happens when the Reserve Bank causes a recession in an effort to Keep Wages Low. The previous government saw a ...
Three opinion polls have been released in the last two days, all showing that the new government is failing to hold their popular support. The usual honeymoon experienced during the first year of a first term government is entirely absent. The political mood is still gloomy and discontented, mainly due ...
National's Finance Minister once met a poor person.A scornful interview with National's finance guru who knows next to nothing about economics or people.There might have been something a bit familiar if that was the headline I’d gone with today. It would of course have been in tribute to the article ...
Rob MacCulloch writes – Throughout the pandemic, the new Vice-Chancellor-of-Otago-University-on-$629,000 per annum-Can-you-believe-it-and-Former-Finance-Minister Grant Robertson repeated the mantra over and over that he saved “lives and livelihoods”.As we update how this claim is faring over the course of time, the facts are increasingly speaking differently. NZ ...
Chris Trotter writes – IT’S A COMMONPLACE of political speeches, especially those delivered in acknowledgement of electoral victory: “We’ll govern for all New Zealanders.” On the face of it, the pledge is a strange one. Why would any political leader govern in ways that advantaged the huge ...
Bryce Edwards writes – The list of former National Party Ministers being given plum and important roles got longer this week with the appointment of former Deputy Prime Minister Paula Bennett as the chair of Pharmac. The Christopher Luxon-led Government has now made key appointments to Bill ...
TL;DR: These are the six things that stood out to me in news and commentary on Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy at 10:06am on Wednesday, May 1:The Lead: Business confidence fell across the board in April, falling in some areas to levels last seen during the lockdowns because of a collapse in ...
Over the past 36 hours, Christopher Luxon has been dong his best to portray the centre-right’s plummeting poll numbers as a mark of virtue. Allegedly, the negative verdicts are the result of hard economic times, and of a government bravely set out on a perilous rescue mission from which not ...
Auckland Transport have started rolling out new HOP card readers around the network and over the next three months, all of them on buses, at train stations and ferry wharves will be replaced. The change itself is not that remarkable, with the new readers looking similar to what is already ...
Completed reads for April: The Difference Engine, by William Gibson and Bruce Sterling Carnival of Saints, by George Herman The Snow Spider, by Jenny Nimmo Emlyn’s Moon, by Jenny Nimmo The Chestnut Soldier, by Jenny Nimmo Death Comes As the End, by Agatha Christie Lord of the Flies, by ...
On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
Have a story to share about St Paul’s, but today just picturesPopular novels written at this desk by a young man who managed to bootstrap himself out of father’s imprisonment and his own young life in a workhouse Read more ...
The list of former National Party Ministers being given plum and important roles got longer this week with the appointment of former Deputy Prime Minister Paula Bennett as the chair of Pharmac. The Christopher Luxon-led Government has now made key appointments to Bill English, Simon Bridges, Steven Joyce, Roger Sowry, ...
Newsroom has a story today about National's (fortunately failed) effort to disestablish the newly-created Inspector-General of Defence. The creation of this agency was the key recommendation of the Inquiry into Operation Burnham, and a vital means of restoring credibility and social licence to an agency which had been caught lying ...
Holding On To The Present:The moment a political movement arises that attacks the whole idea of social progress, and announces its intention to wind back the hands of History’s clock, then democracy, along with its unwritten rules, is in mortal danger.IT’S A COMMONPLACE of political speeches, especially those delivered in ...
Stuck In The Middle With You:As Christopher Luxon feels the hot breath of Act’s and NZ First’s extremists on the back of his neck and, as he reckons with the damage their policies are already inflicting upon a country he’s described as “fragile”, is there not some merit in reaching out ...
The unpopular coalition government is currently rushing to repeal section 7AA of the Oranga Tamariki Act. The clause is Oranga Tamariki's Treaty clause, and was inserted after its systematic stealing of Māori children became a public scandal and resulted in physical resistance to further abductions. The clause created clear obligations ...
Buzz from the Beehive The government’s official website – which Point of Order monitors daily – not for the first time has nothing much to say today about political happenings that are grabbing media headlines. It makes no mention of the latest 1News-Verian poll, for example. This shows National down ...
It Takes A Train To Cry:Surely, there is nothing lonelier in all this world than the long wail of a distant steam locomotive on a cold Winter’s night.AS A CHILD, I would lie awake in my grandfather’s house and listen to the traffic. The big wooden house was only a ...
Packing A Punch: The election of the present government, including in its ranks politicians dedicated to reasserting the rights of the legislature in shaping and determining the future of Māori and Pakeha in New Zealand, should have alerted the judiciary – including its anomalous appendage, the Waitangi Tribunal – that its ...
Dead Woman Walking: New Zealand’s media industry had been moving steadily towards disaster for all the years Melissa Lee had been National’s media and communications policy spokesperson, and yet, when the crisis finally broke, on her watch, she had nothing intelligent to offer. Christopher Luxon is a patient man - but he’s not ...
Chris Trotter writes – New Zealand politics is remarkably easy-going: dangerously so, one might even say. With the notable exception of John Key’s flat ruling-out of the NZ First Party in 2008, all parties capable of clearing MMP’s five-percent threshold, or winning one or more electorate seats, tend ...
Bryce Edwards writes – Polling shows that Wellington Mayor Tory Whanau has the lowest approval rating of any mayor in the country. Siting at -12 per cent, the proportion of constituents who disapprove of her performance outweighs those who give her the thumbs up. This negative rating is ...
Luxon will no doubt put a brave face on it, but there is no escaping the pressure this latest poll will put on him and the government. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: These are the six things that stood out to me in news and commentary on Aotearoa-NZ’s political ...
This is a re-post from The Climate Brink by Andrew Dessler In the wake of any unusual weather event, someone inevitably asks, “Did climate change cause this?” In the most literal sense, that answer is almost always no. Climate change is never the sole cause of hurricanes, heat waves, droughts, or ...
Something odd happened yesterday, and I’d love to know if there’s more to it. If there was something which preempted what happened, or if it was simply a throwaway line in response to a journalist.Yesterday David Seymour was asked at a press conference what the process would be if the ...
Hi,From time to time, I want to bring Webworm into the real world. We did it last year with the Jurassic Park event in New Zealand — which was a lot of fun!And so on Saturday May 11th, in Los Angeles, I am hosting a lil’ Webworm pop-up! I’ve been ...
Education Minister Erica Standford yesterday unveiled a fundamental reform of the way our school pupils are taught. She would not exactly say so, but she is all but dismantling the so-called “inquiry” “feel good” method of teaching, which has ruled in our classrooms since a major review of the New ...
Exactly where are we seriously going with this government and its policies? That is, apart from following what may as well be a Truss-Lite approach on the purported economic “plan“, and Victorian-era regression when it comes to social policy.Oh it’ll work this time of course, we’re basically assured, “the ...
Hey Uncle Dave, When the Poms joined the EEC, I wasn't one of those defeatists who said, Well, that’s it for the dairy job. And I was right, eh? The Chinese can’t get enough of our milk powder and eventually, the Poms came to their senses and backed up the ute ...
Polling shows that Wellington Mayor Tory Whanau has the lowest approval rating of any mayor in the country. Siting at -12 per cent, the proportion of constituents who disapprove of her performance outweighs those who give her the thumbs up. This negative rating is higher than for any other mayor ...
Buzz from the Beehive Pharmac has been given a financial transfusion and a new chair to oversee its spending in the pharmaceutical business. Associate Health Minister David Seymour described the funding for Pharmac as “its largest ever budget of $6.294 billion over four years, fixing a $1.774 billion fiscal cliff”. ...
Bryce Edwards writes – Many criticisms are being made of the Government’s Fast Track Approvals Bill, including by this writer. But as with everything in politics, every story has two sides, and both deserve attention. It’s important to understand what the Government is trying to achieve and its ...
TL;DR: Here’s my top 10 ‘pick ‘n’ mix of links to news, analysis and opinion articles as of 10:10am on Monday, April 29:Scoop: The children's ward at Rotorua Hospital will be missing a third of its beds as winter hits because Te Whatu Ora halted an upgrade partway through to ...
span class=”dropcap”>As hideous as David Seymour can be, it is worth keeping in mind occasionally that there are even worse political figures (and regimes) out there. Iran for instance, is about to execute the country’s leading hip hop musician Toomaj Salehi, for writing and performing raps that “corrupt” the nation’s ...
Yesterday marked 10 years since the first electric train carried passengers in Auckland so it’s a good time to look back at it and the impact it has had. A brief history The first proposals for rail electrification in Auckland came in the 1920’s alongside the plans for earlier ...
Right now, in Aotearoa-NZ, our ‘animal spirits’ are darkening towards a winter of discontent, thanks at least partly to a chorus of negative comments and actions from the Government Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: These are the six things that stood out to me in news and commentary on ...
The Government is again adding to New Zealand’s growing unemployment, this time cutting jobs at the agencies responsible for urban development and growing much needed housing stock. ...
With Minister Karen Chhour indicating in the House today that she either doesn’t know or care about the frontline cuts she’s making to Oranga Tamariki, we risk seeing more and more of our children falling through the cracks. ...
The Labour Party is saddened to learn of the death of Sir Robert Martin, a globally renowned disability advocate who led the way for disability rights both in New Zealand and internationally. ...
Labour is calling for the Government to urgently rethink its coalition commitment to restart live animal exports, Labour animal welfare spokesperson Rachel Boyack said. ...
Today’s Financial Stability Report has once again highlighted that poverty and deep inequality are political choices - and this Government is choosing to make them worse. ...
The Green Party is calling on the Government to do more for our households in most need as unemployment rises and the cost of living crisis endures. ...
Unemployment is on the rise and it’s only going to get worse under this Government, Labour finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds said. Stats NZ figures show the unemployment rate grew to 4.3 percent in the March quarter from 4 percent in the December quarter. “This is the second rise in unemployment ...
The New Zealand Labour Party welcomes the entering into force of the European Union and New Zealand free trade agreement. This agreement opens the door for a huge increase in trade opportunities with a market of 450 million people who are high value discerning consumers of New Zealand goods and ...
The National-led Government continues its fiscal jiggery pokery with its Pharmac announcement today, Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall says. “The government has increased Pharmac funding but conceded it will only make minimal increases in access to medicine”, said Ayesha Verrall “This is far from the bold promises made to fund ...
This afternoon’s interim Waitangi Tribunal report must be taken seriously as it affects our most vulnerable children, Labour children’s spokesperson Willow-Jean Prime. ...
Te Pāti Māori are demanding the New Zealand Government support an international independent investigation into mass graves that have been uncovered at two hospitals on the Gaza strip, following weeks of assault by Israeli troops. Among the 392 bodies that have been recovered, are children and elderly civilians. Many of ...
Our two-tiered system for veterans’ support is out of step with our closest partners, and all parties in Parliament should work together to fix it, Labour veterans’ affairs spokesperson Greg O’Connor said. ...
Stripping two Ministers of their portfolios just six months into the job shows Christopher Luxon’s management style is lacking, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said. ...
Tonight’s court decision to overturn the summons of the Children’s Minister has enabled the Crown to continue making decisions about Māori without evidence, says Te Pāti Māori spokesperson for Children, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi. “The judicial system has this evening told the nation that this government can do whatever they want when ...
It appears Nicola Willis is about to pull the rug out from under the feet of local communities still dealing with the aftermath of last year’s severe weather, and local councils relying on funding to build back from these disasters. ...
The Government is making short-sighted changes to the Resource Management Act (RMA) that will take away environmental protection in favour of short-term profits, Labour’s environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said today. ...
Labour welcomes the release of the report into the North Island weather events and looks forward to working with the Government to ensure that New Zealand is as prepared as it can be for the next natural disaster. ...
The Labour Party has called for the New Zealand Government to recognise Palestine, as a material step towards progressing the two-State solution needed to achieve a lasting peace in the region. ...
Some of our country’s most important work, stopping the sexual exploitation of children and violent extremism could go along with staff on the frontline at ports and airports. ...
The Government’s Fast Track Approvals Bill will give projects such as new coal mines a ‘get out of jail free’ card to wreak havoc on the environment, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said today. ...
The government's decision to reintroduce Three Strikes is a destructive and ineffective piece of law-making that will only exacerbate an inherently biased and racist criminal justice system, said Te Pāti Māori Justice Spokesperson, Tākuta Ferris, today. During the time Three Strikes was in place in Aotearoa, Māori and Pasifika received ...
Cuts to frontline hospital staff are not only a broken election promise, it shows the reckless tax cuts have well and truly hit the frontline of the health system, says Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall. ...
The Green Party has joined the call for public submissions on the fast-track legislation to be extended after the Ombudsman forced the Government to release the list of organisations invited to apply just hours before submissions close. ...
New Zealand’s good work at reducing climate emissions for three years in a row will be undone by the National government’s lack of ambition and scrapping programmes that were making a difference, Labour Party climate spokesperson Megan Woods said today. ...
More essential jobs could be on the chopping block, this time Ministry of Education staff on the school lunches team are set to find out whether they're in line to lose their jobs. ...
Te Pāti Māori is disgusted at the confirmation that hundreds are set to lose their jobs at Oranga Tamariki, and the disestablishment of the Treaty Response Unit. “This act of absolute carelessness and out of touch decision making is committing tamariki to state abuse.” Said Te Pāti Māori Oranga Tamariki ...
The Government is trying to bring in a law that will allow Ministers to cut corners and kill off native species, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said. ...
Cancelling urgently needed new Cook Strait ferries and hiking the cost of public transport for many Kiwis so that National can announce the prospect of another tunnel for Wellington is not making good choices, Labour Transport Spokesperson Tangi Utikere said. ...
A laundry list of additional costs for Tāmaki Makarau Auckland shows the Minister for the city is not delivering for the people who live there, says Labour Auckland Issues spokesperson Shanan Halbert. ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters discussed the need for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, and enhanced cooperation in the Pacific with German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock during her first official visit to New Zealand today. "New Zealand and Germany enjoy shared interests and values, including the rule of law, democracy, respect for the international system ...
The Minister Responsible for RMA Reform, Chris Bishop today released his decision on four recommendations referred to him by the Western Bay of Plenty District Council, opening the door to housing growth in the area. The Council’s Plan Change 92 allows more homes to be built in existing and new ...
Thank you, John McKinnon and the New Zealand China Council for the invitation to speak to you today. Thank you too, all members of the China Council. Your effort has played an essential role in helping to build, shape, and grow a balanced and resilient relationship between our two ...
The Government is modernising insurance law to better protect Kiwis and provide security in the event of a disaster, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly announced today. “These reforms are long overdue. New Zealand’s insurance law is complicated and dated, some of which is more than 100 years old. ...
The coalition Government is refreshing its approach to supporting pay equity claims as time-limited funding for the Pay Equity Taskforce comes to an end, Public Service Minister Nicola Willis says. “Three years ago, the then-government introduced changes to the Equal Pay Act to support pay equity bargaining. The changes were ...
Structured literacy will change the way New Zealand children learn to read - improving achievement and setting students up for success, Education Minister Erica Stanford says. “Being able to read and write is a fundamental life skill that too many young people are missing out on. Recent data shows that ...
Trade Minister Todd McClay says Canada’s refusal to comply in full with a CPTPP trade dispute ruling in our favour over dairy trade is cynical and New Zealand has no intention of backing down. Mr McClay said he has asked for urgent legal advice in respect of our ‘next move’ ...
The rights of our children and young people will be enhanced by changes the coalition Government will make to strengthen oversight of the Oranga Tamariki system, including restoring a single Children’s Commissioner. “The Government is committed to delivering better public services that care for our most at-risk young people and ...
The Government is making it easier for minor changes to be made to a building consent so building a home is easier and more affordable, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “The coalition Government is focused on making it easier and cheaper to build homes so we can ...
New Zealand lost a true legend when internationally renowned disability advocate Sir Robert Martin (KNZM) passed away at his home in Whanganui last night, Disabilities Issues Minister Louise Upston says. “Our Government’s thoughts are with his wife Lynda, family and community, those he has worked with, the disability community in ...
Good evening – Before discussing the challenges and opportunities facing New Zealand’s foreign policy, we’d like to first acknowledge the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs. You have contributed to debates about New Zealand foreign policy over a long period of time, and we thank you for hosting us. ...
From today, passengers travelling internationally from Auckland Airport will be able to keep laptops and liquids in their carry-on bags for security screening thanks to new technology, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Creating a more efficient and seamless travel experience is important for holidaymakers and businesses, enabling faster movement through ...
People with an interest in the health of Northland’s marine ecosystems are invited to a public meeting to discuss how to deal with kina barrens, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones will lead the discussion, which will take place on Friday, 10 May, at Awanui Hotel in ...
Kiwi exporters are $100 million better off today with the NZ EU FTA entering into force says Trade Minister Todd McClay. “This is all part of our plan to grow the economy. New Zealand's prosperity depends on international trade, making up 60 per cent of the country’s total economic activity. ...
There are heartening signs that the extractive sector is once again becoming an attractive prospect for investors and a source of economic prosperity for New Zealand, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. “The beginnings of a resurgence in extractive industries are apparent in media reports of the sector in the past ...
The return of the historic Ō-Rākau battle site to the descendants of those who fought there moved one step closer today with the first reading of Te Pire mō Ō-Rākau, Te Pae o Maumahara / The Ō-Rākau Remembrance Bill. The Bill will entrust the 9.7-hectare battle site, five kilometres west ...
Energy Minister Simeon Brown has announced 25 new high-speed EV charging hubs along key routes between major urban centres and outlined the Government’s plan to supercharge New Zealand’s EV infrastructure. The hubs will each have several chargers and be capable of charging at least four – and up to 10 ...
The coalition Government will not proceed with the previous Government’s plans to regulate residential property managers, Housing Minister Chris Bishop says. “I have written to the Chairperson of the Social Services and Community Committee to inform him that the Government does not intend to support the Residential Property Managers Bill ...
The Government has announced an independent review into the disability support system funded by the Ministry of Disabled People – Whaikaha. Disability Issues Minister Louise Upston says the review will look at what can be done to strengthen the long-term sustainability of Disability Support Services to provide disabled people and ...
Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith has attended the Universal Periodic Review in Geneva and outlined the Government’s plan to restore law and order. “Speaking to the United Nations Human Rights Council provided us with an opportunity to present New Zealand’s human rights progress, priorities, and challenges, while responding to issues and ...
The Government and Rotorua Lakes Council are committed to working closely together to end the use of contracted emergency housing motels in Rotorua. Associate Minister of Housing (Social Housing) Tama Potaka says the Government remains committed to ending the long-term use of contracted emergency housing motels in Rotorua by the ...
Trade Minister Todd McClay heads overseas today for high-level trade talks in the Gulf region, and a key OECD meeting in Paris. Mr McClay will travel to Riyadh to meet with counterparts from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC). “New Zealand’s goods and services exports to the Gulf region ...
Education Minister Erica Stanford has outlined six education priorities to deliver a world-leading education system that sets Kiwi kids up for future success. “I’m putting ambition, achievement and outcomes at the heart of our education system. I want every child to be inspired and engaged in their learning so they ...
The new NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) App is a secure ‘one stop shop’ to provide the services drivers need, Transport Minister Simeon Brown and Digitising Government Minister Judith Collins say. “The NZTA App will enable an easier way for Kiwis to pay for Vehicle Registration and Road User Charges (RUC). ...
Whānau with tamariki growing up in emergency housing motels will be prioritised for social housing starting this week, says Associate Housing Minister Tama Potaka. “Giving these whānau a better opportunity to build healthy stable lives for themselves and future generations is an essential part of the Government’s goal of reducing ...
Racing Minister Winston Peters has paid tribute to an icon of the industry with the recent passing of Dave O’Sullivan (OBE). “Our sympathies are with the O’Sullivan family with the sad news of Dave O’Sullivan’s recent passing,” Mr Peters says. “His contribution to racing, initially as a jockey and then ...
Assalaamu alaikum, greetings to you all. Eid Mubarak, everyone! I want to extend my warmest wishes to you and everyone celebrating this joyous occasion. It is a pleasure to be here. I have enjoyed Eid celebrations at Parliament before, but this is my first time joining you as the Minister ...
Associate Health Minister David Seymour has announced Pharmac’s largest ever budget of $6.294 billion over four years, fixing a $1.774 billion fiscal cliff. “Access to medicines is a crucial part of many Kiwis’ lives. We’ve committed to a budget allocation of $1.774 billion over four years so Kiwis are ...
Hon Paula Bennett has been appointed as member and chair of the Pharmac board, Associate Health Minister David Seymour announced today. "Pharmac is a critical part of New Zealand's health system and plays a significant role in ensuring that Kiwis have the best possible access to medicines,” says Mr Seymour. ...
Hundreds of New Zealand families affected by Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder (FASD) will benefit from a new Government focus on prevention and treatment, says Health Minister Dr Shane Reti. “We know FASD is a leading cause of preventable intellectual and neurodevelopmental disability in New Zealand,” Dr Reti says. “Every day, ...
Regional Development Minister Shane Jones today attended the official opening of Kaikohe’s new $14.7 million sports complex. “The completion of the Kaikohe Multi Sports Complex is a fantastic achievement for the Far North,” Mr Jones says. “This facility not only fulfils a long-held dream for local athletes, but also creates ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters’ engagements in Türkiye this week underlined the importance of diplomacy to meet growing global challenges. “Returning to the Gallipoli Peninsula to represent New Zealand at Anzac commemorations was a sombre reminder of the critical importance of diplomacy for de-escalating conflicts and easing tensions,” Mr Peters ...
Ambassador Millar, Burgemeester, Vandepitte, Excellencies, military representatives, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen – good morning and welcome to this sacred Anzac Day dawn service. It is an honour to be here on behalf of the Government and people of New Zealand at Buttes New British Cemetery, Polygon Wood – a deeply ...
Distinguished guests - It is an honour to return once again to this site which, as the resting place for so many of our war-dead, has become a sacred place for generations of New Zealanders. Our presence here and at the other special spaces of Gallipoli is made ...
Mai ia tawhiti pamamao, te moana nui a Kiwa, kua tae whakaiti mai matou, ki to koutou papa whenua. No koutou te tapuwae, no matou te tapuwae, kua honoa pumautia. Ko nga toa kua hinga nei, o te Waipounamu, o te Ika a Maui, he okioki tahi me o ...
Paul Goldsmith will take on responsibility for the Media and Communications portfolio, while Louise Upston will pick up the Disability Issues portfolio, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon announced today. “Our Government is relentlessly focused on getting New Zealand back on track. As issues change in prominence, I plan to adjust Ministerial ...
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https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/new-zealand-chess-champion-sue-maroroa-jones-dies-at-32-after-giving-birth-to-second-child/I66QPHLFCJADHJOBF4K2OVYBOA/
Very sad she was a good person
Yes Barfly, our chess player son is sad as well. A complete shock.
I don't know if others have already commented on this, but it is brave and wonderful that in the budget the tax rate for trusts was raised from 33% to 39%, the same as the top income tax rate, to fix the rort/anomaly where trustees used trusts to only pay 33%.
Luxon will doubtless change this back-Standard readers need watch for the Nats policy position on this.
Agreed that is a positive takeaway from the budget…but it only addresses one part of the trust tax-evasion problem..
The operation of those trusts needs to be more transparent…
Agree with that Philip
is that income tax?
Trust income, in short if you found yourself in the 39c tax bracket you would once you reached it put the money into a trust which would pay 33c. For it to be a worthwhile work around you needed to earn 300k and up
so people whose assets are in a trust, and are earning income from that, but whose income would otherwise be in a lower tax bracket, will pay 39% on the trust income?
Yes unless they disperse the income from the trust in which case it will be paid at the recipients nominal tax rate.
ok, that makes more sense. So people who have a trust but aren't high inome earners, and who aren't trying to rort the system, can just take out the income each year and pay their normal tax on that rather than the 39%.
There is no 'rort'. Beneficiaries don't benefit from a different tax rate in the trust because as soon as they are paid a distribution, their personal tax rate kicks in.
so are Cricklewood and BG wrong when they say that the income being earned by the trust was being taxed at 33% but if it was personal income wealthy people would be paying 39%?
In the next financial year income coming into the trust will be taxed at 39%. Are you saying that if that stays in the trust until the following year but then is paid out that the beneficiary gets a rebate (assuming they pay less than 39%)?
In answer to question 1, ultimately what beneficiaries pay comes down to the nature of the distribution and the personal tax rate of the beneficiaries.
Increasing the trust tax rate to 39% is meaningless, because trustees will simply distribute all profits in the year they are earned (as most do now), and beneficiaries will pay whatever they pay, somewhere between 39% and zip.
It can be a rort. Parents who don’t have a trust have to meet the cost of their child's upkeep from their own income. With a trust, however, a child beneficiary's upkeep cost can be recovered from the trust, saving the parents a fair bit of money.
It would be useful to have legislation making it illegal to pass income to a child (or to anybody for that matter), through the use of a trust, without good reason.
how does that save the parents money?
2. School Fees paid by a trust are distributions to the beneficiaries, and so attract the recipients rate of income tax.
3. Funds used to establish a trust have already been subject to the individuals rate of income tax.
there is no rort.
I have friends who set up a trust so that they could hide income so that they could claim working for families. My understanding is that this is a widespread rort
If they are beneficiaries of the trust, the IRD will cut straight through the trust and effectively void the transactions. It’s the same scenario as gifting to avoid the cost of rest home care.
a lot of that stuff got tightened up ages ago.
No rorts, of course – just an example of NZ punching above its weight.
Too much of a 'good' thing?
Re David Parker's claims – https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-20-05-2023/#comment-1950631
Re the rest of it – you need to read up on foreign trusts. A clue is found in your last reference and talks about the criteria for a foreign trust only being tax free when neither the settlor nor beneficiaries lived, or derived income from New Zealand.
For a few wealthy Kiwis, tax avoidance is a way of life. Sad, if you really think about it – maybe it gives them some small pleasure?
Is the only real problem with tax evasion ‘getting caught’? So many thrilling 'stories', and this is a great opportunity to post them here. Will there be more opportunities? I do hope so.
If you believe that "the use of trusts" and "tax avoidance" are whole different conversations, then I have an old car to sell you
Seems fair to me – have NAct promised to reverse it yet? Not paying your fair share of tax is an optional perk of wealth the world over.
Re tax evasion:
https://www.ird.govt.nz/managing-my-tax/tax-crime/tell-us-about-evasion-or-fraud/report-anonymously-ir873
Just the one, as far as I can tell.
"If you believe that "the use of trusts" and "tax avoidance" are whole different conversations, then I have an old car to sell you"
They are completely different. Evidence of tax avoidance is not evidence that trusts are used for tax evasion.
Nope. The clue is in the title of the article about that “silly“, “faulty and shoddy” (in your opinion) report, specifically – "spike in trust use to avoid tax."
Why might you be finding that report so difficult to comprehend?
https://www.ird.govt.nz/managing-my-tax/tax-crime/tell-us-about-evasion-or-fraud/report-anonymously-ir873
"Nope. The clue is in the title of the article about that “silly“, “faulty and shoddy” report, specifically – "spike in trust use to avoid tax.""
Your link is to an article that includes this pearler:
Auckland University law professor Mark Henaghan said the increase was down to one thing – a growing awareness of how trusts could be used to reduce tax bills."
Seriously? The good professor ought to know there are a) many reasons people put homes in trusts that have nothing to do with tax, and b) any use of trusts to lower tax could easily be mirrored by other vehicles. Find better sources, Drowsy.
It appears you are firmly of the opinion that "the use of trusts" and "tax avoidance" "are completely different", so let's agree to disagree. Others can make up their own mind after considering the evidence.
"For a few wealthy Kiwis, tax avoidance is a way of life. Sad, if you really think about it – maybe it gives them some small pleasure?"
Do any of those examples include the use of trusts? We can have a whole different conversation about tax avoidance if you want.
Having a trust is not always evidence of an attempt to rort or tax evasion. Taking advantage of Trusts and companies set-ups is not prima facie an indication of wanting to rort.
It is only a rort really when tax is evaded.
The financial planning for tradespeople can often include trusts and companies. The prudent financial planning for people who have children from a prior relationship and/or assets from a prior relationship often use the Trust avenue to protect the children should a subsequent relationship break down. I mean why should a subsequent husband/wife be entitled to assets from a prior husband/parent who worked so hard?
Trust have always paid a higher tax rate so keeping assets for children in this way is not all beer and skittles. Neither is making payouts to beneficiaries, despite what is being said here. (There is pretty onerous record keeping involved) Many trusts have assets that are not liquid and cannot do that anyway. Many settlors of Trusts keep the assets within the trust and so any earnings are taxed at a higher rate.
I have no problem with a higher rate for tax for Trusts but long term it is not going to yield big bucks….better to spend the time and money on ways to catch the evading group (ie the large group paying less than a person on the lowest income rates, or to look at a capital gains or wealth tax or even a modest death duties regime.
I appreciate railing at the so-called tax and Trust bogey does fit in with the depression inducing cry 'its not fair' but ultimately it gets us nowhere.
"Having a trust is not always evidence of an attempt to rort or tax evasion."
"I appreciate railing at the so-called tax and Trust bogey does fit in with the depression inducing cry 'its not fair' but ultimately it gets us nowhere."
To Shanreagh…
Good comment.
"And there is this…"
That article is full of nonsense. Take this statement:
"Because trust income can be spread across a number of beneficiaries, who are often lower earners, the income is often taxed at a lower bracket, he says."
The author fails to understand that exactly the same result can be achieved without a trust.
Superb work Drowsy.
And there is this…
Which I have linked previously…The whole Mega landlord series from Stuff (who I actually rate) lifts the rock from the land"lord". Exposing what has happened to NZ.
Shame….
If a property is transferred to a trust the income from that property is taxed at a much lower rate if the beneficiaries are children, than would be the case if the parents themselves continued to own the properties, and paid tax on the income from those properties at their own tax rate; assuming of course that the children's tax rates are much lower than the parents (which of course is normally the case). The parents can then charge the children for their upkeep, and be compensated thereby from their children's trust income.
It should be mandated that parents support their children themselves rather than turning that support over to a trust.
Wrong. There are rules around what can be distributed to children under 16, and all distributions at balance date are taxed at the trust rate of tax.
"parents support their children themselves"
Well there goes working for families.
Incorrect. If the assets are held within the trust it does not matter who the proposed beneficiaries are and what their individual tax circumstances are.
So a Family Trust with a range of possible beneficiaries pays tax at the tax rate for trusts, now the highest rate. The process for allocating to beneficiaries is time- and document- intensive & the benefits so marginal, for my family Trust anyway. This is because many of the beneficiaries the Trust could allocate to now have marginal tax rates above the lowest personal tax rate, that we have not bothered.
NB One of a common way of avoding tax is simply not to pay PAYE for employees or FBT etc. While these crimes, when caught, are heavily penalised, that the financial state of many of these people ensure that tax to pay and penalties can be repaid on the 'never, never' or even if bankruptcy ensues may be paid a low rates in the $$$$
And even then, any distributions to beneficiaries attract tax at their personal tax rate, so at the top end, the 39c applies eventually anyway. Trust income can only escape the higher rate if it is retained in the Trust. The lifting of the rate is largely symbolic.
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/budget-no-major-new-taxes-but-80b-more-tax-revenue
Looks a lot more than simply ‘symbolic’ to me.
And:
So the change is forecast to contribute just 1.75% of the total additional tax NZ'ers will pay according to Treasury forecasts.
Stuffed up the block formatting, so re-posting rest of comment…
2. Total Trustee income in 2021 was $17.1bn.
Trustee tax rate to increase to 39% | Budget 2023 | Deloitte New Zealand
So the estimated $350m is just 2.05% of total trustee income from 2 years ago.
3.
Tax rate change enacted along with big-brother information gathering powers | Tax Alert | December 2020 | Deloitte New Zealand
350 million dollars a year (7 billion in 20 years) pays for a lot of cycleways and public transport.
The way this government wastes money, it's a drop in the bucket.
Indeed, nothing ‘symbolic’ about $350m a year. The “m” is not a symbol but a prefix that means one has to add another six zeros to get the real figure, in real dollars.
Not going after this money would indeed be tantamount to ‘waste’, so you should be fully behind it, yet you are not, which is rather odd and counter-intuitive.
My comment was a specific reply and specifically mentioned the nearly $6b income a year by high-earning New Zealanders. (NB the “b” prefix means that you add nine zeros to the figure) So, why are you diverting, again? Instead of putting up a decent argument you divert and/or post a wall of selective quotes or links, which is your MO here.
You seem to have a real bee in your bonnet about the increase in trustee tax but no compelling counter-arguments!? Go figure!
"My comment was a specific reply and specifically mentioned the nearly $6b income a year by high-earning New Zealanders."
My comment referred to the lifting of the trust tax rate as symbolic. I then went on to demonstrate precisely how insignificant the $35m is in the context of the budget in which it was introduced. Your $6bn is irrelevant and a diversion.
"Not going after this money would indeed be tantamount to ‘waste’…"
No, it really wouldn't. As I have pointed out, there is a real chance this change could raise little additional or even less revenue.
Correction: $350m.
Freudian slip
I see, you believe you’re a clever troll.
It’s neither irrelevant nor a diversion (nice try!) but at the core of the Government decision:
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/trustee-tax-change-improve-fairness
Well, if you keep dropping zeroes it will become insignificant. However, your incorrect $35m (the correct figure still is $350m) is neither ‘symbolic’ nor ‘insignificant’ and you have ‘demonstrated’ only that you’re a disingenuous troll.
Only four days ago you argued (https://thestandard.org.nz/nationals-policy-machine-is-a-thing-to-behold/#comment-1950174) about much smaller amounts being wasteful:
On the one hand, $330k is wasteful but OTOH, $35m or $350m is ‘symbolic’ and ‘insignificant’!?
For someone who doesn’t have a Trust nor the desire to have one (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-20-05-2023/#comment-1950619) you have an awful lot to say about this topic, which raises the question what your agenda is with this?
Good commenters here are wasting their time engaging with you, which I have noticed and noted before.
"It’s neither irrelevant nor a diversion (nice try!) but at the core of the Government decision:"
The estimated benefit from the change is $350m. I demonstrated clearly that is immaterial (and therefore symbolic) when I compared this amount to three seperate benchmarks…a) the total amount of additional tax estimated over the next four years, b) the total trustee income from 2021, and c) the % of top income earners the new 'top tax rate' would effect.
I have also demonstrated (if you had bothered to read through the thread) that the $350m may end up being much less or even zero.
You either don't have the understanding of this subject to engage in an informed matter, or you're just being a dick for the sake of it. I'll go with the latter. It's in your MO.
[You want us to believe that $6b yearly income by high-earning New Zealanders and that could net $350m in extra tax could magically disappear and become zero even, which would indeed be ‘insignificant’ as you claim. High-earning means that they are or should already be paying 39% tax on any profit, be it from a Trust or elsewhere, and regardless of how they distribute the profit. The fact that Trustee tax was 33% strongly suggests (!) that those high-earning individuals saw a strong enough reason in moving about $6b of their yearly income into Trusts. If this wasn’t a legal loophole used by high-earning New Zealanders then I’d agree that the move is ‘symbolic’. However, the numbers suggest this to be unlikely and implausible. Have the Opposition declared yet that they will repeal the decision? If not, why not? Stop trolling and stop dicking around – only because I’ve been busy you’ve got this far with your trollish claims (e.g. your BS allegation about this government wasting money on “a movie about a Green party MP” here: https://thestandard.org.nz/nationals-policy-machine-is-a-thing-to-behold/#comment-1950174). This is your warning – Incognito]
Mod note
"Good commenters here are wasting their time engaging with you, which I have noticed and noted before."
Really? Like Shanreagh? Red Logix? Both of whom have taken the same position as I have during this thread.
No
"You want us to believe that $6b yearly income by high-earning New Zealanders and that could net $350m in extra tax could magically disappear and become zero even, which would indeed be ‘insignificant’ as you claim."
Well, on the issue of significance, I'll quote Grant Robertson, who seems to agree with my assessment:
Budget 2023: No ‘Major’ New Taxes But $80b More Tax Revenue | Newsroom
On the issue of the $350m, I'll again leave this to Grant Robertson:
Budget 2023: No ‘Major’ New Taxes But $80b More Tax Revenue | Newsroom
A small amount of NZ'ers. The vast majority of trusts aren't set up by the rich, and only a small number of trusts will pay the extra tax.
That should have rung alarm bells right there. Most trusts are for the benefit of less than wealthy NZ'ers, who will simply distribute all income (rather than potentially retaining some income in the trust and paying a higher tax rate) to beneficiaries on a lower tax rate.
And here's the kicker…the $350m is exactly 6% of the $6bn, meaning they are suggesting they will collect the extra tax on every cent of that income. They are dreaming.
[I can’t see anywhere where commenters here on TS and/or Grant Robertson said or implied that $350m extra tax intake is ‘insignificant’ and ‘symbolic’. It would indeed raise serious questions as to why Robertson would have made the decision if this were the case. My take is that you are twisting words & meanings & intentions, as per usual, to score your points. Essentially, you want us to believe that those high-earning New Zealanders – and you keep diverting away from this specific sub-category – shifted nearly $6b of their yearly income into Trusts and they will now hand over control of those Trust assets/income to others just to avoid paying any tax on it (“even zero”!? The mind just boggles at your naivety! Time will tell how that $6b of yearly income will be taxed or ‘vanish’ from the IRD radar, as you seem to want us believe. Frankly, I have enough of your gaslighting days here on TS and I reaffirm your Mod note and don’t want to waste anymore of my Mod time on this – Incognito]
Mod note
"I can’t see anywhere where commenters here on TS and/or Grant Robertson said or implied that $350m extra tax intake is ‘insignificant’ and ‘symbolic’. "
Re Grant Robertson:
You didn't look very hard. From my comment you were moderating:
'Pales in comparison'.
Re: Other contributors:
I didn't claim they "implied that $350m extra tax intake is ‘insignificant’ and ‘symbolic’". Look back at comment https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-20-05-2023/#comment-1950730.
There are a number of other contributors here who have concurred with a variety of opinions I have proffered across this thread.
"you want us to believe that those high-earning New Zealanders – and you keep diverting away from this specific sub-category – shifted nearly $6b of their yearly income into Trusts and they will now hand over control of those Trust assets/income to others just to avoid paying any tax on it (“even zero”!?)
Tax is not paid on the assets in a trust, or even necessarily by those who exercise control over those assets. Tax is paid on the income from the trust (either by the trust or by beneficiaries on distribution). That $6bn you refer to will simply find its way to beneficiaries with a lower tax rate, or into other vehicles.
[I’m not too surprised that you continue to waste my time and keep digging & doubling down and now denying your own comments aka gaslighting, twisting & turning.
Have it your way: take 10 days off for ignoring several warnings about trolling and wasting moderator time – Incognito]
Mod note
But if you don't need any operational income from the Trust for personal use like paying for groceries, rent, power etc., you can leave the money in the Trust. And the Trust re-invests it and earns more income at the same discounted tax rate, which you then re-invest in a spiral of increasing wealth accumulation. The accumulated wealth might not be dispersed for years, or to the next generation, where lower personal tax rates might apply.
The money-grubbing classes are very good at this sort of game – they always find a way of getting an advantage over others. Like a sewage leak, the rest of us have only a vague, passing sense that something whiffs a bit, then you pull up the floorboards and realise the whole edifice is rotten.
Ultimately the money is distributed and tax paid. Anyone can set up a trust. Do you have one? If it is so beneficial, and you don’t, why not?
If it is so beneficial, and you don’t, why not?
Because it is essentially a tax dodge. There are many shady loopholes in the tax system: this is one of them. Unfortunately the measure introduced in the budget will not achieve much because it doesn't address the main problem.
Trusts are not a tax dodge. That ship sailed a long time ago, like the use of gifting to avoid or minimise rest home costs.
Trusts are primarily used now for asset protection, particularly in conjunction with pre-nups.
When did the ship sail? How long ago and what were the reasons for her departure? In a similar analogy, the reasons for emigration by ship in the 19th century ranged from a search for freedom and personal advancement to colonial exploitation.
Yonks ago. For years (from 2010) the highest personal tax rate was 33%, so there was no tax advantage. Before that – from the 1980's through to 2000 the highest personal tax rate was also 33%.
Look at it this way: if trusts were abolished and everyone paid the correct amount of tax on the income they derived from their assets – rents, dividends, profits, etc., would you consider they were being unfairly treated? No? But that is what is happening when income is passed to beneficiaries whose tax rate is lower. And “protecting assets” is often just a weasel word for diddling one’s creditors, including the IRD.
Yes. There are some legitimate uses for trusts, but when there is a stampede to form trusts when the top tax rate is increased from 33% to 39%, one can hardly be blamed for being suspicious.
"Asset protection" is just a weasel word for tax evasion.
No it isn't. Asset protection is precisely what it says. People with assets (eg property) put them into family trusts to protect them from matrimonial property claims, not tax.
No it isn't. Asset protection is precisely what it says. People with assets (eg property) put them into family trusts to protect them from matrimonial property claims, not tax.
Oh – is this where you pretend that someone so ungenerous as not to share with an intimate partner embraces the IRD like a soulmate and gives them everything they're due?
Oh you sweet summer child! Naive even by the standards of the irredeemably stupid Right.
"Oh – is this where you pretend that someone so ungenerous as not to share with an intimate partner embraces the IRD like a soulmate and gives them everything they're due?
Not necessarily just partners or spouses. Sometimes people establish trusts to protect assets from future partners of their children. You should read up on it.
Zoom……if the so-called 'intimate partner' is so ungenerous to find a new partner while still married to the first and claims the assets built up by a prior spouse/partner for the children of that marriage.
You do not appear to know what happens on marriage break-up. I had to get another mortgage to pay my former husband out. Payment being made as a single person is very different from two working and being able to pay and is pretty poor when he had not contributed half of the value….
But you go the way with the fluffy ducks and the perfect marital bliss. It does not work that way sometimes in the real world and some of us in the real world do actually want to live in the homes we built up.
Beautiful analogy.
I can smell the aroma from here
I somehow don't think that paying the higest rate of tax is a discounted rate!
Not all people who set up a Family Trust fall into the categories you are throwing around. I worked hard to save and get ahead and after paying out a husband who was quite happy to take half of the 'wealth' in the home I had on marriage and which he moved into I saw sense and set up a Trust to protect myself and family. I had to re mortgage the house and pay for it again. This was with all the care to separate our earnings at the time.
But you go on slamming people who have Family Trusts.
It has meant that that the earnings in the Trust are taxed at much higher rates than I would have had if I was earning but the Trust has protected me and what I have worked hard for.
The real problem, as opposed to the philosphical problem that some see of so-called 'rich pricks' and their 'mega property deals', like me apparently, is people like this:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/132108201/company-director-jailed-after-kiwisavers-left-owing-1-million
This bloke did not pay lawful deductions made on behalf of IRD for employees kiwisaver etc and there does not appear to be any chance that he will. I mean going to prison is hardly likely to get the lost money into employees KS accounts.
I think IRD is onto the Trust tax dodgers quite promptly whereas with people like this it can take at least a year, if PAYE is paid annually for something to be seen as amiss.
With employee pay software able to generate payments to IRD weekly, fortnightly or monthly etc it is time a bit of legislative force was used to make all employers pay IRD regularly. I know large employers can be required to pay IRD for PAYE etc more than annually but looking at this person you can see how a smaller employer who is not prepared to play by the rules can have a debt mount up.
As the daughter of two accountants i know that some scummy employers do use their employees PAYE/KS etc payments to meet cash flow problems and to bankroll expansion. Hoping on the never-never that the ship might come in with additional money to fix it up before year end. Sometimes though the ship salis away and doesn't come back.
My dad had views that this is theft from IRD and a brake on the amount of money that could be used to run the country. He told his clients this and those who were not prepared to mend their ways duirng the year were dropped.
As far as my Trust is concerned the piece of mind that this has brought has been immense and I know that the Trust pays more in tax than I would pay personally but this is a small price to pay. As a retiree I am not able to meet a mortgage to pay anyone out and staying put where I am means much to me.
Liberty….why are you getting so get up if the change from 33 to 39 makes no difference? Methinks thou doth protest too much.
I don't have a trust, and no desire to have one. The notion that people with trusts are rich pricks trying to avoid tax is a common misconception among left wingers. It's part of the whole tall poppy thing we suffer from in this country.
You are 100% correct. Unfortunately the people you are responding to have zero interest in learning anything. Their motives come from a different place.
Wrong Red….read my link below. Billions are being laundered through trusts to avoid tax.
Agreed.
Why do people who are not rich pricks use trusts? Why on earth do trusts exist?
Most people with trusts are not rich.
Budget 2023: No ‘Major’ New Taxes But $80b More Tax Revenue | Newsroom
Trusts exist these days mainly for asset protection, often in conjunction with 'prenuptual' agreements.
You're probably thinking of squat poppies – those morally stunted and undeserving persons that, at every opportunity, seek to avoid their social responsibilities, and imagine that, when called out, that they are victims.
Tall poppies cheerfully bow to the common good.
Who are these 'squat poppies'? Care to name one?
The litmus test is the claim to be a tall poppy.
Real tall poppies have no need to make that claim.
Not true Liberty. Read this.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/132079936/trustee-tax-increase-is-response-to-spike-in-trust-use-to-avoid-tax&ved=2ahUKEwj_-umru4P_AhXQklYBHYHnBhMQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1cq5EJFKGkvvCYijWDhIfJ
Parker either doesn't have a clue, or he is simply dishonest. It showed in the silly report he had compiled about the proportion of income tax paid by the wealthy.
And I'll quote from the article:
Clueless, dishonest and/or just plain "silly" – you be the Judge
As for the quote @9:06 pm yesterday, the Taxpayers' Union's campaigns manager Callum Purves might very well say that…
Imo there's nothing honourable about tax avoidance – absolutely nothing.
Re tax evasion:
https://www.ird.govt.nz/managing-my-tax/tax-crime/tell-us-about-evasion-or-fraud/report-anonymously-ir873
After all, what’s sauce for the goose…
https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/about-work-and-income/contact-us/report-suspected-fraud/index.html
Parker's study was faulty and shoddy, right down to not including tax transfers. It was a politically motivated sideshow.
A far better study is the Oliver Shaw research (Rich are paying fair share of tax, research finds | Newshub).
Is that the study that found "those paying the highest average effective tax rate were single, unemployed people in rented accommodation"?
Fair's fair.
It's the study that found that not including tax transfers in a report of comparative taxation is really, really silly.
Ah, then that is the study that found "those paying the highest average effective tax rate were single, unemployed people in rented accommodation." Nice to have that cleared up.
The study done for tax consultancy OliverShaw – not a lot of "single, unemployed people in rented accommodation" on their books, to be fair.
The firms principal is a former deputy IRD commissioner. But play the man if that makes you feel better.
And Don Brash was a former Governor of the RBNZ. Your point?
BTW, this is about the research methodology and findings:
Do the wealthiest New Zealanders pay their fair share of tax? | interest.co.nz
LB, why is the Sapere study “a far better study“, in your opinion?
Is that the Parker one that doesn't take into account transfers but included unearned income?
"And Don Brash was a former Governor of the RBNZ. Your point?"
That playing the man (or in this case the organisation) is rather cheap.
Your appeal to authority shows your bias. DMK rightly pointed out a possible conflict of interest that may cloud the judgement or bias the opinion of ‘the man’. This is not ‘playing the man’ per se but a good counter attack when you’ve run out of arguments and refuse to agree to disagree and insist on scoring points. Context is important, but you seem to apply it only when it suits you.
DMK rightly pointed out a possible conflict of interest that may cloud the judgement or bias the opinion of ‘the man’.
Anyone can insinuate a conflict of interest. It's a cheap shot.
Appealing to authority is a weak & lazy shot.
"Appeaing to authority is a weak & lazy shot."
You probably should apologise to DMK. His long, but nevertheless informative posts are full of them.
He’s not on Mod watch, you are. Don’t tell me what to do here, you are not a Mod, I am.
There's an IRD one (uses data on 311 wealthy (net worth generally >$50m) NZ families) that includes all income, a NZ Treasury one, and a Sapere one.
What makes the Sapere one the best, and the IRD one "silly", "faulty and shoddy", in your opinion?
"What makes the Sapere one the best, and the IRD one "silly", "faulty and shoddy", in your opinion?"
My response (with help from David Reddell Parker, taxation, and that IRD report | croaking cassandra).
1. The IRD report is effectively a survey of 311 families. As David Reddell points out:
2. The IRD survey didn't take into account that in NZ, tax on property is already above the OECD median. In fcat , as David Reddel notes, that was one OECD chart left out of the IRD report. Conveniently.
3. The IRD survey includes unearned (unrealised and hypothetical) income for those individuals, but exclude that same unearned income from other tax payers. David Reddell noted of Parker that
4. The IRD survey takes no account of the rate of inflation.
As David Reddell states:
5. The IRD survey takes no account of improvements performed on any of those assets at the tax payers expense.
6. If you refer to page 45 of the IRD report (report-high-wealth-individuals-research-project.pdf (ird.govt.nz)), at paragraph 4.17, you will find this comment:
Above that comment is table 4.1, which shows that the ETR net of transfers at each decile:
D1: -52%
D2: -55%
D3: -36%
D4: – 2%
D5: 6%
D6: 18%
D7: 21%
D8: 23%
D9: 26%
D10: 29%
The Michael Reddell critique is worth a read, but there are others. The poor quality of the IRD work smacks of political interference. Michael Reddell sums it up in this understated manner:
"David Reddell" (or is it "Michael Reddell"?) is one (or two?) economists, "and like lawyers I can give you another one that will give a counterview."
LB, if you believe this wealth distribution is sustainable in the face of climate change, pandemics, food scarcity, war, environmental and economic crises et al., then I have an old car to sell you.
https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/16-08-2022/the-side-eyes-two-new-zealands-the-table
Nah – keep 'em hungry?
Sorry – getting David Parker and Michael Reddell conflated! But your pithy comment about economists and lawyers is of course quite true!
"f you think this wealth distribution is sustainable …'
Wealth and income are not the same thing and not always directly related. Nevertheless, your comment is a great segue, because the political messaging around the IRD study has cleverly conflated wealth and income to create a faux justification for more taxation.
The IRD report is fundamentally about the fairness or otherwise tax paid on income, not wealth. In fact it goes to great pains to justify itself by classifying unearned and frankly 'phantom' gains as 'income', when (ASGFIK) nowhere in the world is unearned income treated this way.
And David Parker further stokes this confusion in his opinion piece foreward:
Wealth and income are not the same, and Parker knows it.
Further to this, the ETR table clearly shows the tax system in NZ is already achieving significant income redistribution. We are at a point where the highest income earners pay a hugely distportionate amount of the total tax take, and a much higher ETR than low-income earners.
LB, for all the huff and puff that "the IRD report is fundamentally about the fairness or otherwise [of] tax paid on income, not wealth", isn't it up to the IRD to say what the IRD report is fundamentally about?
Not knowing the first thing about economics or accounting (as long as I've got enough money to get by, I'm happy), I googled the term 'economic income', and apparently it's a thing – go figure.
Hmm – while there might be bugger all diferrence between 'taxable income' and 'economic income' for much of the population most of the time, I can see why 'high wealth individuals', and their accountants, might have 'concerns' about using economic income to calculate a median effective tax rate of 9.8%.
Imho, this is about striking a fair balance, and we're not there yet.
"isn't it up to the IRD to say what the IRD report is fundamentally about?"
Of course. My emphasis added.
and
report-high-wealth-individuals-research-project.pdf (ird.govt.nz)
The report is a 'project' about ETR's, and as table 4.1 shows, the TWG found that higher income earners pay considerable higher ETR's than those on lower incomes.
"I googled the term 'economic income', and apparently it's a thing – go figure."
It is. But is it ever used in taxing individuals? And if the IRD or David Parker were remotely honest, they would have taken into account the economic income of every earner in NZ, not just the one class they wanted to highlight.
"I can see why 'high wealth individuals', and their accountants, might have 'concerns' about using economic income"
I don't know whether they are concerned or not. But I can see why Parker and the IRD would be far less amendable to repeating study and including the impacts of the past year or so, with asset values (particularly house prices and managed funds) having fallen.
The entire exercise was political, with a predetermined outcome built in to its methodology. It was dishonest but it got the headlines the government wanted, so perhaps they're happy.
So far you've taken issue with: the [dishonest, silly, faulty and shoddy] IRD report; Attorney-General David Parker [stokes confusion and either doesn't have a clue, or is simply dishonest]; Auckland University law professor Mark Henaghan; an article on ‘Mega Landlords: 48 per cent rise in homes owned by trustees 'suggests tax avoidance' [full of nonsense]; and our Govt [The way this government wastes money, it's a drop in the bucket.]
Imho the report on the IRD project outcomes is interesting, but anyone can read this 2-page summary [PDF] and decide for themself.
The purpose of the project is no mystery, and what Table 4.1 shows is stated clearly on page 31 of the full report.
Elements of economic income are used in many countries for the purposes of taxing individuals. Of the seven happiest countries (all OECD members) in 2021, six had higher Tax-to-GDP ratios than NZ (ranked 9th for happiness) – go figure.
Maybe this excerpt from the Sapere report will help.
The reasons for concern about using 'economic income' to calculate the effective tax rates that the very wealthy 'labour' under is obvious.
Some wealthy individuals think the ETRs calculated using 'economic income' are problematic, and I agree with them.
"So far you've taken issue with:"
Oh I've done more than that. At https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-20-05-2023/#comment-1950815 I set out very clearly the basis for my criticism of IRD report. The invitation is open for you to address those points, not selectively.
"Elements of economic income are used in many countries for the purposes of taxing individuals. "
What elements? Specifically where and how is unearned income taxed that is not consistent with how we treat similar income in NZ?
"Unlike ETRs based on economic income, these ETRs do not comprehensively take account of untaxed sources of income, such as capital gains."
"The purpose of 'the project' is no mystery, "
You said:
I answered you with a reference from the report itself.
"Some wealthy individuals think the ETRs calculated using 'economic income' are problematic, and I agree with them."
What is wealthy? Are these the 300 or so families who the report failed to recognise are actually taxed as individuals? If so. which ones? If not, who are these 'wealthy' people who are concerned? Michael Reddell doesn't appear to be wealthy.
"Maybe this excerpt from the Sapere report will help."
Not really. The accountants will be rubbing their hands together at the prospect of a new and complex taxation regime.
The concerns about changes causing a reduction in investment are valid. When low decile income earners enjoy a negative ETR, and higher income earners are carrying an increasingly disproportionate share of the tax burden, money will leave the country. It's another reason the aforesaid accountants will be loving this.
Don’t know about “pricks”, but more likely rich than poor, surely?
Hmm – maybe a mix of Kiwis, 'concerned' for different reasons?
For example, individuals in the 41 families who wouldn't cooperate with the IRD project, might be 'concerned' about over-taxation.
While other wealthy Kiwis are concerned about under-taxation. You may not agree with wealthy Kiwis who want to pay more tax, but everyone can appreciate their point of view.
"Don’t about “pricks”, but more likely rich than poor, surely?"
Somewhere in between.
Budget 2023: Government cracks down on trustees, increases tax rate | Newshub
As others have noted here, most trusts are family trusts, set up as vehicles to protect assets for future generations. The 'rich prick with a trust' attutide is alive and well, and ignorant.
"For example, individuals in the 41 families who wouldn't cooperate with the IRD project, might be 'concerned' about over-taxation."
Might be. Might be concerned at the government using (to quote Michael Reddell) the "coercive powers of the state" to prepare a politically motivated attack on success.
"Some of the wealthiest Kiwis in Aotearoa know they pay lower tax rates than most – and have signed a letter explicitly asking to pay more."
Tax Justice Spokesperson among the 97 wealthy Kiwis calling for higher taxes (newstalkzb.co.nz)
Huh? He signed the letter of 'wealthy kiwi's' but isn't wealthy?
We can scratch deeper if you want.
Edit – oh this is beautiful. At the foot of the list are two buttons to click if you want to donate. Not, BTW to the IRD, but to either Oxfam or TJA.
"Somewhere in between" – cute. So what's the value of income from trusts set up by Kiwis living in poverty? Take your time.
You seem very prickly
Is there a practical diff between concerns about over-taxation, and concern about politically motivated attacks on financial success?
Those such as Seymour, Luxon and yourself, who leap to the defence of poor put-upon wealthy Kiwis, no doubt have the purest of motivations. It must be truely awful being a wealthy Kiwi, when so many people want to tax your wealth.
https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/16-08-2022/the-side-eyes-two-new-zealands-the-table
Some Kiwis simply can't stomach even the thought of contributing more money to our Govt by way of tax – ‘unfair‘, they cry, Unfair!
If you like, but is there any need? Various motives are clear enough. For many wealthy Kiwis, current tax settings are barely tolerable – they already feel over-taxed, and inequality is certainly not their problem. Other wealthy Kiwis take a different view – maybe they're all silly, confused, dishonest, faulty and shoddy?
""Somewhere in between" – cute."
Somewhere in between rich and poor does not include people in poverty, does it?
"Is there a practical diff between concerns about over-taxation, and concern about politically motivated attacks on financial success?"
Of course there is. For example, I'm concerned about both, but for different reasons. I'm concerned about high income earners paying a disproportionate share of tax, because NZ desperately needs investment. I'm concerned about politically motivated attacks on financial success because they are part of an attitude of mediocracy that is prevalent in NZ.
"If you like, but is there any need? "
Well that depends on you. You posited the idea that this letter was the work of 'wealthy' NZ'ers, which is clearly untrue. Doesn't that concern you?
The trustee can distribute, to the beneficiaries, as much, or as little, of the trust's income as he chooses. Only undistributed income is taxed at the trust rate: formerly 33%, now 39%. Distributed income is taxed at the beneficiary's rate, which can be as low as 10.5%.
"Only undistributed income is taxed at the trust rate: formerly 33%, now 39%."
Yes, that's what I've been saying. In my experience most family trusts distribute all of the income annually already. (Many of those are below the 39% threshold). Perversely, if this tax rate change prompts even more to fully distribute, and to beneficiaries on tax rates lower than 33%, it's entirely possible the government won't draw anywhere near the level of additional taxation they are forecasting.
All of this is quite true LB.
But think of the useful mental health outlet this thread has provided for the 'its not fair' brigade who lump all people with trusts into the category of rich pricks buying mega lots of houses.
I've found that those who engage in trust's often are lacking in trust.
Forced birther poured $120k of his own money into an effort to force a recount of a referendum affirming abortion rights, forcing him to cheap-out on the airworthiness of the light aircraft he was rebuilding. Which then crashed and killed him.
https://www.kansas.com/news/local/news-local-obituaries/article275501041.html
Well, thats peanuts compared to whats coming.
The article goes on to say that that is enough money to fund two of the hugely influential conservative Heritage Foundations plus another sizeable organisation without touching the principle.
What's coming for tens of millions of women is a return to the 19thC.
Directors of women’s health care services at Idaho hospitals are bracing for what’s next: 75 of 117 Idaho OB-GYNs recently surveyed by the Idaho Coalition for Safe Reproductive Health Care said they were considering leaving the state. Of those, nearly 100% — 73 of 75 — cited Idaho’s restrictive abortion laws.
An exodus could affect broader medical coverage for women who rely on OB-GYNs for routine and urgent gynecological care unrelated to pregnancy, like menstrual disorders, endometriosis, and pelvic pain.
Idaho is one of 15 states that have implemented strict abortion laws since last year’s Supreme Court decision overturning Roe v. Wade. And while there is no official nationwide count yet, anecdotal evidence shows that women’s health specialists from states where abortion is criminalized are beginning to relocate to places like Washington state, which has strong abortion rights laws.
https://kffhealthnews.org/news/article/after-idahos-strict-abortion-ban-ob-gyns-stage-a-quick-exodus/
https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/132087748/budget-2023-grant-robertsons-budget-has-one-marker-who-matters-adrian-orr
Yep, save maybe $100-$200 per year at the pharmacy but your mortgage payments go up massively.
And pity the renters who will inevitably pay more as a consequence of this.
Alan-When a cyclone causes 10 billion plus expenses that need fixing asap it is not possible to cut government expenditure unless you are proposing mother of all budget cuts to benefits and other payments that go to the less well off.
Why did Labour rule out the use of a short term cyclone levy?
Targeting high income earners, it would have taken money out of the economy offsetting the Government expenditure on the cyclone repair.
In other words, inflation neutral.
Big Hairy News interviews Shamubeel Eaqub on Budget
Once over lightly, where Shamubeel discusses the predominant spend on infrastructure, plus Pat also asks him about Covid response spending.
What is the point (if any) that you are trying to make by posting this link?
Oh, the irony!
That was a good find
If you are getting prescriptions for drugs that are affected by Robertson's proposal there is not a single household that needs to be paying more than $100/year.
An entire household can't save more than $100/year under the scheme even if you were a family with 6 kids and were getting 20 prescriptions/month. Every single one after the first 20 in a year is free,
Arena Williams has been caught telling porkies about that.
Labour MP Arena Williams fact-checked by Twitter community note over post about scrapping of prescription fee | Newshub
Rent goes up regardless of economic conditions. It doesn't matter if it's pharmacy fees or cheap offshore labour, rent always and inexorably goes up.
One thing the landlord class is very good at is extracting every last cent out of tenants, for profit. Pity they are not so good at providing housing safe from illness and fire. It's business, you know!
It's all good, renters are used to being abused as second class citizens.
The whales know. And they hate us.
Orcas have attacked and sunk a third boat off the Iberian coast of Europe, and experts now believe the behavior is being copied by the rest of the population.
Three orcas (Orcinus orca), also known as killer whales, struck the yacht on the night of May 4 in the Strait of Gibraltar, off the coast of Spain, and pierced the rudder. "There were two smaller and one larger orca," skipper Werner Schaufelberger told the German publication Yacht. "The little ones shook the rudder at the back while the big one repeatedly backed up and rammed the ship with full force from the side."
https://www.livescience.com/animals/orcas/orcas-have-sunk-3-boats-in-europe-and-appear-to-be-teaching-others-to-do-the-same-but-why
Yes Joe90, snap. I had noticed two or three reports of whale attacks in the past six months, and was wondering whether it was Nature fighting back with tooth and fin against humans and that global warming shit.
I have read elsewhere a story where orcas and humans co-operated over decades in fish drives in a harbour somewhere on the Canadian west coast, I think. Until the humans stuffed it up one year somehow, and the pact disintegrated.
A fabulous sight one autumn afternoon years ago was watching a pod of orcas playing around in the Waitematā harbour.
So many decades, but little has changed. Just like Cash and Kristofferson wise words in the Paul Holmes clip a few days ago.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1659583477769990146.html
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr's. Presidential Campaign takes a kindness approach.
Whereas, Trump takes a strength approach.
Sure if you vote by numbers of sanctimoneous abstract nouns, go right ahead.
On the other hand if you like policy, RFK JR:
– Lobbied Congress to enable parents to evade vaccinating their children
https://people.com/health/jessica-biel-says-shes-not-against-vaccinations/
– Has a Non Profit called Child's Health Defence which paid for more than half of the ads on Facebook lying about vaccines, and was then barred from instagram
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/11/us/robert-f-kennedy-jr-instagram-covid-vaccine.html
– Published a book titled The Real Anthony Fauci, accusing the doctor of promoting "a historic coup d'etat against Western democracy."
– Promoted a documentary falsely claiming that vaccines give you autism
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2017/01/10/the-facts-about-vaccines-autism-and-robert-f-kennedy-jr-s-conspiracy-theory/
I'm sure he's done a lot of good particularly in environmental defences of rivers, and of course he's younger than Joe Biden.
But … nah
I don't vote in the US election.
I was merely interested in the two different campaign approaches.
RFK Jnr is a nutter. So different campaign approaches for the same fruit cake 'winner'
Would you prefer Biden to win?
A deep dive into Jr's dangerous, dishonest lunacy.
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The only ‘herd immunity’ we need is against abysmal candidates like RFK Jr. He has spent decades as a professional liar and is not the kind of person who should be anywhere near power.
[…]
Let’s establish at the outset that Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is someone who lies constantly in ways that seriously endanger the public. In fact, his lies have probably directly caused people to get sick, and possibly die.
To those who accept the scientific consensus around the efficacy of COVID-19 vaccines, someone like Kennedy can appear to be a mere “nut” or “crank.” But it’s important to understand that anti-vaxxers like Kennedy aren’t just “crazy.” They’re skilled manipulators of statistics who are great at fooling people using pseudoscience. Waving them away as
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2023/05/rfk-jr-is-a-lying-crank-posing-as-a-progressive-alternative
And there's always the possibility that Jr's a player in one of Roger Stone's rat-fucking schemes.
Thanks, Joe.
Seems some have a bee in their bonnet re his vaccine stance.
Nevertheless, it also seems he's polling rather well regardless.
Trump is too, so not sure of the relevance. Both crazy in different ways so 'you takes your chances and you makes your choice' between whatever flavour you like.
Yes, I've seen that Trump is also polling well.
I wonder which approach American voters will favour?
As I have long told my US cousin the choice of the President of the US is far too important to be given to Americans…… when Trump got in we agreed that anyone other than Americans, preferably NZers, should have been given the vote for the US Pres & that way they might have avoided Trump. She's a Democrat but who knows, she's not an anti vaxxer.
Her father on the other hand used to tell all his family here in NZ that he would be coming back to NZ each time a Labour Govt got in, in the UK. But of course he never did.
Anti-vaccine stances are directly responsible for the return of vaccine-preventable diseases that disproportionately affect children.
Those who oppose a crank magnet who poses an existential threat to millions of children have a little more than a bee in their bonnet.
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Is it really the anti-vaccine stance that is responsible, or could it be the failure to convincingly refute them?
Maybe those who oppose a crank magnet should be reconsidering their own tactics?