Open Mike 21/07/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 21st, 2017 - 104 comments
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104 comments on “Open Mike 21/07/2017 ”

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  1. Tony Veitch (not etc) 1
    21 July 2017 at 7:13 am

    Folks, there’s an elephant in the room, and nobody seems to be taking any real notice of it – or even recognising it is there.

    • over the next two decades five or six billion people could/will die as a direct result of climate change.

    • the tropics will move north and south, pushing the arid zones before them. Large areas will be just too hot to live in, or too dry to farm in.

    • famines will rack most of Africa, the Middle East, the Indian subcontinent and southern China, South America, and even North America and Australia.

    • millions of people will be forced on the move, potentially destabilizing societies, especially in the developed world.

    • weather ‘events’ will occur with increasing frequency and rising intensity, destroying crops and houses – and lives! More heat means more water vapour, which means more intense rain, in some areas!

    • and I haven’t even mentioned rising sea levels!

    The point I’m making is that social democratic policies are all very nice and worth voting for – but this country should be taking climate change very very seriously. There is no hope in being reactive – we must be proactive.

    • RedLogix 1.1
      21 July 2017 at 9:13 am

      marty mars posted a good linky from The Guardian a few days back. It’s worth revisiting:

      These pervasive exhortations to individual action — in corporate ads, school textbooks, and the campaigns of mainstream environmental groups, especially in the west — seem as natural as the air we breath. But we could hardly be worse-served.

      While we busy ourselves greening our personal lives, fossil fuel corporations are rendering these efforts irrelevant. The breakdown of carbon emissions since 1988? A hundred companies alone are responsible for an astonishing 71 percent. You tinker with those pens or that panel; they go on torching the planet.

      The freedom of these corporations to pollute – and the fixation on a feeble lifestyle response – is no accident. It is the result of an ideological war, waged over the last forty years, against the possibility of collective action. Devastatingly successful, it is not too late to reverse it.

      https://www.theguardian.com/environment/true-north/2017/jul/17/neoliberalism-has-conned-us-into-fighting-climate-change-as-individuals

    • mlpc 1.2
      21 July 2017 at 2:22 pm

      Relax, it’s not an elephant. It’s just a figment of your imagination.
      Trying reading this:
      https://www.thegwpf.com/earth-day-predictions-that-were-all-wrong/

      • greywarshark 1.2.1
        21 July 2017 at 4:42 pm

        mlpc
        2: “100-200 Million People Per Year Will Be Starving to Death During the Next Ten Years.”
        Stanford professor Dr. Paul Ehrlich declared in April 1970 that mass starvation was imminent. His dire predictions failed to materialize as the number of people living in poverty has significantly declined and the amount of food per person has steadily increased, despite population growth. The world’s Gross Domestic Product per person has immeasurably increased despite increases in population.

        Damn, now to prove that there is real stuff to be worrying about, I have to find 100 to 200 million people willing to starve to death. I had planned a small holiday this year to look at a part of NZ that will be under water in a decade, and now this! Can’t I have any happiness or relaxation in between the urgent efforts to get action on a, b, c, and so on, all the numerous insurmountable disasters that can only be mitigated? How many people really have to starve to death before someone notices, shows concern and starts to act?

  2. WILD KATIPO 2
    21 July 2017 at 7:26 am

    Defeat the Bill! The struggle against the Employment Contracts Bill, 1991
    https://iso.org.nz/…/defeat-the-bill-the-struggle-against-the-employment-contracts-bill…

    ( copy the FULL title and paste all of it when you google it )

    Essential reading in our time for those wishing to know one of the key weapons used to bring about the neo liberal subversion . This will explain the hows and whys of much of the poverty today . And the ones responsible , even the Union Reps who were also responsible.
    ……………………………………………………………
    Contrast the hypocrisy here of Ken Douglas’s statement after being one of the chief Judas’s…

    Ken Douglas, then president of the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions, recalled in the 1996 documentary Revolution:

    ” The Employment Contracts Act was deliberately intended to individualise the employment relationship. It was a natural outcome of the ideological propaganda of rugged individualism, of self-interest and greed and the appeal to individuals that you could find better for you by climbing over the tops of your colleagues, your mates, and so on. Ruth Richardson was very clear, very blunt, very honest about its purpose. It was to achieve a dramatic lowering of wages, very, very quickly ”
    ……………………………………………………………

    We have seen the spotlight on the viscous fall out of Ruth Richardson’s ‘Mother of all Budgets’ recently , – and the effects it still has in the year 2017, – 26 years later !!!!

    Both the Employment Contracts Act and the Mother of all Budgets were brought into legislation in 1991. Their destructive social effect has never been truly addressed . All political party’s have skirted around the issue and not come clean. Instead they prefer to pontificate and wring their hands as to the cause of poverty in NZ today and use it as a political football.

    It is time a new light is shone on these recent historical causes and then properly addressed .

    • AsleepWhileWalking 2.1
      21 July 2017 at 8:02 am

      This is important enough to deserve it’s own thread don’t you think?

      • WILD KATIPO 2.1.1
        21 July 2017 at 8:13 am

        I believe so , to be honest,… the fact is ,… that we now have several generations who have grown up completely unaware of recent history , and the root causes of the ailments of our country in 2017.

        They are without a point of reference with which to make any realistic comparison.

        And it is not good enough that we leave it to gather dust , and relegate it to a side topic of some lecturers talk on recent political history…

        This needs to be presented not only in an easily presented format to the general public to establish causal factors for modern problems , but also stressed that these were/ are the direct causes for the poverty and discord surrounding government decisions today in the year 2017 … 26 years after the fact.

        Once exposed to a new generation of workers , and then becoming again part of the political narrative today ,… it would force the question … ” what should we do about it ? ”

        It will not be until that happens that any real long term solutions can occur.

  3. Robert Guyton 3
    21 July 2017 at 7:26 am

    Radical or radicle?

    “According to TV1 political editor Corin Dann, the Greens have made “a bold statement on social justice”. On Spin-Off, Simon Wilson suggested, “For the left, which was looking like it was going to watch another election slide by, it was the most impressive statement of the year.” Columnist Stacey Kirk argues, Green Party co-leader Metiria Turei, is “counting on New Zealanders to not only voice concern over inequality, but to collectively do something about it that may go against the nature of their very core.”

    Perhaps not surprisingly, the most hyperbolic response has come from veteran left columnist Chris Trotter who reckons the reform platform adopted by the Greens is not merely radical but “revolutionary”. Turei’s declarations at the weekend, in his eyes, “will have the same electrifying effect as the cry which swept through Paris on 14 July 1789 – ‘To the Bastille!’” Yes, he actually did compare the Greens’ platform with the start of the French revolution which cut off the heads of much of the ruling class there and ushered in a whole new social order. And the Greens, well Metiria Turei in particular, has “set the 2017 election on fire”.*”

    https://rdln.wordpress.com/2017/07/20/have-the-greens-gone-radical/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radicle

    • Stunned mullet 3.1
      21 July 2017 at 7:30 am

      Good old Chris – not one to ever be scared of a bit of hyperbole and bombast.

      • WILD KATIPO 3.1.1
        21 July 2017 at 7:40 am

        Good old Stunned Mullet , not one to ever be scared of a bit of subversion of debates and advancing right wing biased propaganda.

    • The Chairman 3.2
      21 July 2017 at 9:03 am

      “For the left, which was looking like it was going to watch another election slide by, it was the most impressive statement of the year.”

      Indeed. Until Labour took the shine right off it declining to support it.

      It seems Labour would rather maintain a $4 billion plus budget surplus than work with the Greens to further help address poverty.

      Without Labour’s support (or unless the Greens become the majority coalition party) the proposal is virtually a dead duck.

      • Robert Guyton 3.2.1
        21 July 2017 at 9:21 am

        First, you stake your claim. Then, you fight for it. The greater part of the struggle is in defence.

        • The Chairman 3.2.1.1
          21 July 2017 at 10:08 am

          “First, you stake your claim. Then, you fight for it “

          It’s a real shame they couldn’t just work together on this one.

          Think of the momentum lost. First we had the call from the Children’s Commissioner, then came the Greens proposal and just as all eyes turned to see if Labour would run with it, they stopped it dead in its track.

          Therefore, unless voters give the Greens the numbers, or Labour buckle under public pressure, it’s little more than wishful thinking.

          • Robert Guyton 3.2.1.1.1
            21 July 2017 at 10:38 am

            “wishful thinking” is a powerful seed crystal around which gems are built, so long as action follows words. Opposition or dismissal serves as tension, and creative tension is a vital component of any successful venture. If The Green’s proposals had been met with universal, uncritical support from The Labour Party, they would have been doomed to extinction; this reluctant retreat is positive and encouraging, imo.

            • The Chairman 3.2.1.1.1.1
              21 July 2017 at 11:40 am

              “If The Green’s proposals had been met with universal, uncritical support from The Labour Party, they would have been doomed to extinction; this reluctant retreat is positive and encouraging, imo. “

              Sorry, Robert, but I disagree. Public perception is changing. Inequality and poverty (along with all its ills) are of voter concern.

              Moreover, with the Greens proposal being costed at $1.4 billion, Labour could still increase benefits (along with its own proposals) and still maintain around a $3 billion surplus, thus it’s far from outlandish.

              This so-called “reluctant retreat” has been Labour’s position when it was last in power and also for its last nine years in opposition. And going off those past election results, a number would say this “reluctant retreat” is playing a part in them becoming extinct.

              I’d be interested to know how the wider Labour support base feels on this matter?

              • In Vino …
                21 July 2017 at 4:27 pm

                Wildly euphoric, and looking forward eagerly to finding new and innovative ways of cooperating with a positive attitude.

    • Gabby 3.3
      21 July 2017 at 10:53 am

      According or acrudding?

  4. Andre 4
    21 July 2017 at 7:27 am

    For anyone curious about why single payer healthcare is such a struggle to sell to voters in the US, here’s a good explanation.

    http://www.salon.com/2017/07/20/how-to-sell-single-payer-health-care-its-a-great-policy-but-has-a-huge-political-drawback/

    tl;dr it’s because currently the huge majority of Americans get their health insurance as a mostly-employer-paid benefit. Switching to single-payer takes a huge cost off the employers, but will require a huge tax increase to pay for it.

    • Draco T Bastard 4.1
      21 July 2017 at 11:09 am

      And it would still be cheaper than what they have now.

      That’s the point that the US doesn’t seem to get. Their privatised healthcare costs far more than a state provided one.

      • Macro 4.1.1
        21 July 2017 at 1:50 pm

        Exactly. But then they voted for Trump – and around 40%, after 6 months of his idiocy, would still do so! 🙄
        You really have to wonder.

  5. CLEANGREEN 5
    21 July 2017 at 7:51 am

    Check this out showing how screwed our housing situation really is now under “Brighter future” National Party plan!!!!!!

    Well done John Campbell!!

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/327597/motels-given-millions-to-house-homeless

    Motels given millions to house homeless
    5:49 am on 28 March 2017

    Michelle Cooke, Checkpoint Producer
    @Mich_Cooke michelle.cooke@radionz.co.nz

    Five Auckland motels have received more than $1.3 million of taxpayer money in just three months to house homeless people.

    Figures obtained by Checkpoint with John Campbell under the Official Information Act show in the three months ending 31 December 2016, the Budget Travellers Inn in Papatoetoe received $351,958 in emergency housing special needs grants from the Ministry of Social Development (MSD), the highest of any emergency provider in New Zealand.

    Alfred Ngaro Social Housing Associate Minister Alfred Ngaro Photo: Supplied
    The grants are given to people “when all other options are exhausted, to provide a short-term solution”, but Salvation Army social policy unit director Ian Hutson said the situation could have been avoided.

    “What we’re reaping is related to the lack of early intervention, and ideally we don’t want more and more emergency accommodation, what we want is affordable housing,” Mr Hutson said.

    Rounding out the five providers given the most grants were the Knightsbridge Motor Lodge in Papatoetoe, at $334,578; 540 Motel in Otahuhu, at $242,187; the Allenby Park Hotel in Papatoetoe, at $220,750; and the Rockfield Motel in Penrose at $199,649.

    In total, the ministry granted 8860 grants to 2616 people in the last quarter of last year – at a total cost of $7,735,788, or an average of about $2.5m per month.

    Associate Minister for Social Housing Alfred Ngaro said the government was working on other options.

    “You’ve got to build the supply to meet the demand” – Associate Minister for Social Housing Alfred Ngaro duration 5′ :52″ from Checkpoint Add to playlist Download

    • Wayne 5.1
      21 July 2017 at 8:16 am

      It probably makes sense to have short term emergency housing in a motel style accommodation. Boarding houses, which used to be quite common, are now much less evident.

      Quite a few people have a temporary need. Even if there was sufficient social housing there may not be vacancies in the places and at the times needed. In that case the temporary housing fills the gap.

      Temporary housing, such as motels come with everything, which is probably what many people need. There will be people with literally nothing, ex prisoners for instance. They could not furnish a house, at least not immediately. They often used to be in central city boarding houses, but many of these have gone.

      So I would expect that this type of housing will be a permanent feature of the housing system, even when more social housing is built.

      • WILD KATIPO 5.1.1
        21 July 2017 at 8:23 am

        And you are still rabbiting on about expensive temporary band aid fixes instead of being honest and coming clean about the real causative factors as to why we have such an appalling percentage of poverty ridden homeless family’s and individuals in New Zealand today.

        You are becoming more and more hard to take seriously , Wayne , just like Paula Bennett and the Double Dipping PM.

      • Robert Guyton 5.1.2
        21 July 2017 at 9:25 am

        “It probably makes sense to have short term emergency housing in a motel style accommodation.”

        It’s a very poor response that shouldn’t have been required. Short-term thinking forces costly “solutions” such as motel emergency accommodation.

      • Stuart Munro 5.1.3
        21 July 2017 at 7:52 pm

        It probably only makes sense if the moteliers are Gnat donors.

    • Psycho Milt 5.2
      21 July 2017 at 8:56 am

      “You’ve got to build the supply to meet the demand” – Associate Minister for Social Housing Alfred Ngaro

      Uh, duh-uh, is that right, Alfred? Fuck, if only someone had had the intellectual superpowers required to figure that out sooner – then maybe your government wouldn’t have spent 9 years deferring maintenance on, demolishing or selling state houses and hardly building any. Here’s a thought – maybe your government could fucking build some and stop blowing our dosh on motels?

    • RedLogix 6.1
      21 July 2017 at 9:42 am

      Ta … as you say the info on Iran is completely new to me as well.

      Interesting how in the USA the term ‘negative income tax’ is also used. It’s worth keeping in mind there are different forms of UBI and the discussion can easily get sidetracked into pointless detail unless it’s clear what’s being talked about.

      But to me the three big factors which count are:

      1. It’s unconditional. It potentially eliminates the toxic stigmatisation associated with targeted benefits and all the shaming, bullying hoops you jump through to get them

      2. It rewards otherwise unpaid domestic work, the efforts of a stay-at-home partner who looks after the home, the kids and contributes to the households social and community life

      3. It eliminates the poverty traps inherent in all targeted benefits and gives people more opportunity and flexibility to organise their lives the way they want

      A good read here:

      http://www.top.org.nz/what_is_the_ubi_why_do_we_want_it

    • Draco T Bastard 6.2
      21 July 2017 at 11:30 am

      The two main criticisms of a basic income

      Making the case for universal basic income (UBI) has always required advocates to address two criticisms of the idea:

      1. Giving people cash will cause them to work less, hurt the economy, and deprive them of the meaning that work provides in life.
      2. Providing an income floor set at a reasonable level for everyone is unaffordable.

      1. People will work anyway if you pay them or not. This is actually how the capitalists manage to exploit people for their own benefit. Basically, working is more challenging and fulfilling than not working.
      2. If society cannot ensure that everyone can have a decent living standard then there’s one of two problems: 1) The nation has run out of resources or 2) All the wealth is in the hands of the few.

      Studies show that the problem is always the latter. The inevitable result of capitalism is that all the wealth will end up in the hands of the few.

      • Draco T Bastard 6.2.1
        21 July 2017 at 11:47 am

        This bit needs to be highlighted as well:

        Moreover, at least some of the labor force participation decline that the NITs caused was socially desirable. Stanford economist Eric Hanushek, evaluating the non-labor force effects of the NIT experiments, found that “for youth the reduction in labor supply brought about by the negative income tax is almost perfectly offset by increased school attendance.” Other than that, the bulk of the decline seems attributable to longer spells of unemployment, as people used money from the negative income tax to fund longer searches for jobs. That’s a good thing: Research from Stanford’s Raj Chetty has found that longer job searches improve matching between candidates and jobs, increasing economic efficiency.

        Another way that WINZ helps fuck things up is by pushing people into jobs that aren’t suited to them.

  7. AsleepWhileWalking 7
    21 July 2017 at 8:10 am

    This is our ridiculous welfare system…this is a MUST LISTEN interview with RadioNZ.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=201851767

    Re: Debts/Arrears. What this client has been told is completely inaccurate.

    You can get arrears going back years….in fact as far back as you possibly need. [Case law: Scoble, established that in the ministry is aware of your situation then it is their responsibility to advise you of your entitlement, ie an application for any benefit is an application for all benefits]

    Debts – everything is reviewable, there is no one month limit as this client was told.

  8. greywarshark 8
    21 July 2017 at 9:03 am

    Steve Joyce this morning. Unbelievable at the art of fudging, nay lying. He actually is the John Key type for Nats, better than Blinglish at PM.

    Nats have found some figures that seem to let them off the hook about lack of housing and high prices. 56% of the price of buildings is because of the land and particularly the regulations. Again it is all Council’s fault and the citizens who raise objections to speculators wishes.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/201851877/land-use-rules-blamed-for-high-auckland-house-prices

    I think that Guyon actually asked if that was a bigger problem than immigration!
    And the answer was that it was regulations over land which cut down the supply.
    Demand apparently has no part to play.

    And it is so interesting that Fletchers and other construction companies are having difficulties. Yet everything is being done to assist these companies. It makes one wonder if our businesses are well run. They are relatively spoon-fed but can’t manage without getting bargains on every aspect except the salaries at the upper level and the dividends to the hard-eyed men who invest in their high-priced shares.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/201851880/construction-industry-says-fletcher-s-problems-are-widespread

    And those highly salaried are riding mountain bikes and having accidents that cost $15 million from ACC and the citizens, men between 30-55 are into it, can afford it, and are getting big salaries so are costly to all us plebeians.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/201851882/is-mountain-biking-the-new-golf

    You could call our present society set-up The Rain of the Highwaymen, they bail you up on your way to having a life, and steal all your goodies so you never have a chance to really enjoy having anything. And they dump misery on you leaving you uncomfortable, and shivering with no roof or tree to shelter under.

    • Robert Guyton 8.1
      21 July 2017 at 9:26 am

      Reign, rein or rain?

    • WILD KATIPO 8.2
      21 July 2017 at 9:34 am

      National are really ‘ back to nature’ sort of guys… their answer to the housing crisis is to encourage us all to become more like these guys …

      🙂

      Bigfoot caught on tape (Patterson footage stabilized) – YouTube
      you tube▶ 1:49

    • Gabby 8.3
      21 July 2017 at 11:16 am

      Can’t help wondering if some ceo might have lost money doing a political buddy a favour. No $11,000 book for him.

    • Bearded Git 8.4
      21 July 2017 at 11:40 am

      @Greywarshark

      Heard that interview-completely unbelievable figures from Joyce. Utter rubbish. Tripe.

      In the Queenstown Lakes District we have just had Dwelling Capacity Reports prepared by expert planners and expert economic/growth evidence presented in relation to this. The conclusion from the experts: the Queenstown Lakes District has sufficient zoned capacity for housing way past 2048 and easily complies with the current government’s recently introduced standard on zoned residential capacity.

      According to Mr. Joyce in this situation house prices should be falling in the QLD. Far from it; average prices are close to a million in Queenstown and not far behind in Wanaka, and still rising.

      The culprits? Land bankers, speculators and builders. NOT the culprit; regulations in the Queenstown Lakes District Council District Plan.

      • greywarshark 8.4.1
        21 July 2017 at 4:30 pm

        Yes bearded git – what we have been saying here so often. But the general public is insulated from the bright clear light that we beam out that reveals lies and obfuscations – like the ultraviolet light and LEDs used at crime scenes. So the crimes of government and their fellow grifters go undetected!

    • Draco T Bastard 8.5
      21 July 2017 at 12:36 pm

      It makes one wonder if our businesses are well run.

      Wonder no more – they aren’t.

      You could call our present society set-up The Rain of the Highwaymen, they bail you up on your way to having a life, and steal all your goodies so you never have a chance to really enjoy having anything.

      Sounds about right.

  9. Andre 9
    21 July 2017 at 9:30 am

    Choosing the right frame. A reminder of the importance of framing your argument to fit your opponent’s worldview if you want to be persuasive.

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/head-quarters/2017/jul/20/the-power-of-framing-its-not-what-you-say-its-how-you-say-it

  11. Ad 11
    21 July 2017 at 9:34 am

    U.S. Senate numbers are getting unstable.
    Menendez going on trial probably means Chris Christie will tilt one vote towards the Republicans.

    If McCain doesn’t come back after brain surgery, there will be a hiatus while the State Governor chooses a new one. Also Senator Flake is vulnerable.

    Can’t see the Dems taking back the Senate any time soon. But it’s impossible to bet on major legislation getting through when things are this tight.

    • Andre 11.1
      21 July 2017 at 9:52 am

      What happens if McCain needs to be replaced.

      http://heavy.com/news/2017/07/john-mccain-replacement-how-when-chosen-elected-appointed-special-election-who/

      November 2018 could be a very interesting election in Arizona, with both Senate seats and the governor up for grabs in a state that’s steadily shading from red to purple.

      If Menendez (a Dem) is out, New Jersey law for replacing him is a mess and internally self-contradictory. It’s possible Christie could immediately appoint a Republican to replace him, who would be in place until the 2018 elections.

      • alwyn 11.1.1
        21 July 2017 at 10:51 am

        I was interested to see that Arizona law requires that the appointee to a Senate seat must be of the same party as the person being replaced.
        A pity that all the states (including New Jersey) don’t have such a rule.
        It is hard to see why a State Governor should have the ability to change the organisation of the US Senate.

    • greywarshark 11.2
      22 July 2017 at 5:34 pm

      The USA – I find it hard to know when its reports are satire or for real. McCain having brain surgery. How do we know he wasn’t in need of it when elected? And Ad says there is a Senator Flake. Really? Probably called Snow Flake.

      It’s like Reality TV, but are there deep dark goings on behind the false front. What do they call that – ah I know – conspiracy.

  13. marty mars 13
    21 July 2017 at 1:59 pm

    Okay so wtf is going on here

    Consumer NZ is warning people to limit their use of Colgate Total toothpaste because it contains a chemical banned in some countries.

    The toothpaste contains triclosan, an antibacterial chemical that used to be found in soap, toothpaste and body wash.

    Last year, the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) banned products that contain any one of 19 ingredients, including triclosan, that had not been proven safe…

    …Cosmetic companies including Colgate-Palmolive said last year it had either reformulated, or was reformulating products to delete the most common of the 19 ingredients, including triclosan and triclocarban…

    …But Consumer NZ researcher Jessica Wilson said Colgate Total toothpaste in New Zealand still contained the unnecessary chemical.

    “Triclosan is a broad spectrum antibacterial agent in a range of products from toothpaste to paint. We’ve been concerned about it for some time because we don’t want them to be in products you have frequent contact with,” Wilson said…

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/94960318/chemical-in-colgate-total-possible-hormone-disrupter-and-carcinogenic

    Worried about things? Fair enough.

    • WILD KATIPO 13.1
      21 July 2017 at 2:24 pm

      They used to use salt to clean their teeth… and salt desiccates bacteria and kills them.

      • weka 13.1.1
        21 July 2017 at 3:49 pm

        I use baking soda. My aunt and uncle used to use salt. Toothpaste is weird.

        • mac1 13.1.1.1
          22 July 2017 at 11:14 pm

          My granddad used soot from the chimney. He’d walk over to the open fire-place with his toothbrush, rummage up in the chimney and walk back to the bathroom brushing the while.

            • mac1 13.1.1.1.1.1
              23 July 2017 at 11:00 am

              The two are not parallel, using soot for toothpaste and working as a chimney sweep. Interesting article, though.

          • weka 13.1.1.1.2
            22 July 2017 at 11:36 pm

            I’ve heard of people using charcoal so that makes a kind of sense. Was it a coal fire though?

            • mac1 13.1.1.1.2.1
              23 July 2017 at 10:54 am

              Having remembered and written about my grandad who died aged 81 of heart failure, I googled the practice of using soot for toothpaste, and it was widespread.

              Was it a coal fire? That I do not remember. As a young man he was a high country shepherd which most probably involved wood fires, but coal fires in Christchurch were common.

              The soot was of course rinsed and spat out.

      • ropata 13.1.2
        22 July 2017 at 11:21 pm

        Yeah dentures were also quite popular back in the day, and people used to get all their teeth extracted as a wedding preparation. My Mum was forced to use salt when she was a kid and she hated it and her teeth are wrecked. Toothpaste FTW

        • weka 13.1.2.1
          22 July 2017 at 11:37 pm

          Go back even further and pre-refined carb cultures had very healthy teeth and no toothpaste.

  14. chris73 14
    21 July 2017 at 2:22 pm

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/94970051/another-former-green-candidate-joins-gareth-morgans-top

    “The Greens have been around 17 years and never been in Government. You’ve got to ask yourself what you’re doing it for.”

    Exactly

    • WILD KATIPO 14.1
      21 July 2017 at 2:26 pm

      They are doing it because this country would be the lesser if they didn’t.

      • chris73 14.1.1
        21 July 2017 at 2:39 pm

        They’re doing it for the paycheck, at least the other parties get things done

    • McFlock 14.2
      21 July 2017 at 2:37 pm

      1: hold the government and other opposition parties to account
      2: use private members’ bills to change NZ law, e.g. hitting kids
      3: influence policy development
      4: show people what principled politicians look like.

      • chris73 14.2.1
        21 July 2017 at 2:43 pm

        5. Get paid approx 160 grand a year but not make a jot of difference

        • weka 14.2.1.1
          21 July 2017 at 2:46 pm

          blah blah blah, from the dude who votes on the right so insists the left are useless. How come National have to keep stealing the left’s ideas then?

          • chris73 14.2.1.1.1
            21 July 2017 at 2:54 pm

            Well the Greens are more useless than Labour because at least Labour get into power every so often (but don’t include the Greens)

            National steal the Lefts ideas because most NZers want a center government, center-left or center-right is just fine for them so National takes from theleft and the voters are happy

            I, on the other hand would like to see WFF ended, interest put back on student loans, no more diary conversions, cleaner water ways, means tested super, 100 MPs, no increase in refugees allowed into NZ, lower tax on secondary jobs, more charter schools etc etc

            But some of that/most of that will never happen but as long as the Greens are kept out of power I’ll happily concede some of the things I want to make sure they don’t wreck the country

      • RedLogix 14.2.2
        21 July 2017 at 2:56 pm

        All good things. Now when do you imagine the Greens are going to crack 20%?

        In my lifetime, or my grandkids?

        Ok so this sounds snarky, but it’s still a valid question.

        • alwyn 14.2.2.1
          21 July 2017 at 3:23 pm

          “Now when do you imagine the Greens are going to crack 20%”
          I am sure that if you asked someone from the US in 1958 when a black person would be elected President the answer would have been “Never”.
          Well it did happen and it only took 50 years.
          It might be a bit harder for the Green Party here of course.. The actions of the female co-leader with her long running fraud activities is going to put it back another decade or two but someday we will get a caucus of sensible candidates and it will happen.

          • Draco T Bastard 14.2.2.1.1
            21 July 2017 at 5:02 pm

            The actions of the female co-leader with her long running fraud activities…

            Was talking to a National Party supporter the other day and they were going on about that and bad it was. Conversation moved on a bit it was mentioned by this person that he’d asked Ruth Richardson (Early 1990s) to get of the Estate Tax. She laughed at him and told him that if he couldn’t avoid the Estate Tax then perhaps he should go Labour.

            The interesting thing about it is that it was considered Ok to avoid taxes although doing so is definitely against the law.
            That although the government at the time a) knew that this avoidance occurred and b) knew how it occurred they had no intention of changing it which, of course, is corruption.

            I haven’t seen anything to suggest that National has changed.

        • McFlock 14.2.2.2
          21 July 2017 at 3:58 pm

          Well, pessimistic rather than snarky 🙂

          Actually the Greens have an advantage as things like climate change get worse (another possible extreme weather event battering the windows as I type). But even without that, I reckon in the next couple of elections could well see the greens in the 15-20% range. Higher if Trotter’s broflakes put a stop to Labour’s rejuvenation.

          One other brake on Green progression if NZ1/peters in particular. If peters goes I think NZ1 will start becoming a bedfellow of the nats and start leeching their vote, rather than anyone who is looking for an alternative for the nats. So an election or two after peters leaves then the greens will expand a bit more.

          But that’s me puling figures from my arse. Shane Jones could be the next Winston Peters, you never know (although at best I reckon he’s just a Dunne)

    • weka 14.3
      21 July 2017 at 2:50 pm

      “The Greens have been around 17 years and never been in Government. You’ve got to ask yourself what you’re doing it for.”

      Lol, just looked to see who said that. It was David Hay, who when he was a GP member got kicked out for slagging off his own party in public.

      He does sounds like a good match for TOP.

      “One of the appeals of TOP is that Gareth [Morgan] is really all about the policies, getting into Government, making a difference.”

      Oh good, confirmation from one of the TOP candidates that they do indeed intend to be in government this year.

      • chris73 14.3.1
        21 July 2017 at 3:06 pm

        lol indeed but not as funny as Labour shafting the Greens in favour of Peter Dunne, that was pretty funny don’t you think

        • weka 14.3.1.1
          21 July 2017 at 3:24 pm

          It might be if I knew what you were talking about. Seems like a pretty random comparison though tbh.

    • marty mars 14.4
      21 July 2017 at 3:15 pm

      Greens that bail to topsy are not greens, that is obvious – probably more likely middle types scared they will lose their tiny baubles. Don’t worry plenty of real environmentalists and social activists joining the greens to make up for the skedaddlers.

    • Draco T Bastard 14.5
      21 July 2017 at 4:44 pm

      Labour was around for about 20 years before they made government.

      And the Greens have accomplished quite a bit even outside of government.

  15. alwyn 15
    21 July 2017 at 3:13 pm

    There was a meeting in Ashhurst the other day where the residents were very unhappy about the problems with the Manawatu Gorge,
    The people in Woodville are even more depressed.
    Did any Green MP, preferably Ms Genter, attend to tell them what the Green Party solution would be?
    Out of curiosity what is it? Does anyone have any idea? With the general Green Party antipathy to highways I, as a reasonably regular traveller to Hawkes Bay would like to know.

    • weka 15.1
      21 July 2017 at 3:26 pm

      Yes there were GP people there. I suggest you go look it up and if you have questions for them I’d suggest asking them about that.

      • alwyn 15.1.1
        21 July 2017 at 3:44 pm

        The best I could find was this.
        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/94545961/politicians-quibble-about-best-solution-to-manawatu-gorge-closure
        Basically it says you don’ need a road. Stick everything on a train.
        How many a day are they going to have for people who currently travel by car from one side to the other?
        The Wairarapa candidate seemed to be a great deal more realistic but not much use.
        http://times-age.co.nz/gorge-alternatives-not-viable/

        • weka 15.1.1.1
          21 July 2017 at 3:53 pm

          Not quite.

          The Green Party’s Palmerston North candidate Thomas Nash said work was being done to create a “transport triangle” between Auckland, Hamilton and Tauranga, and a similar arrangement could happen with Manawatu, Wellington and Wairarapa.

          Modern and reliable rail links between the three areas would take trucks off the road, thereby taking pressure off the Saddle Rd, he said.

          Palmerston North would benefit largely from investment in rail, as the city was a distribution hub for the lower North Island, he said.

          “It’s all about thinking long term.”

          I can see how a fossil fuel dinosaur like you would take that as not needing a road, but most people would read that as what it says. Use rail and road sensibly, together.

          • alwyn 15.1.1.1.1
            21 July 2017 at 4:30 pm

            So what you are saying is that cars are all supposed to use the saddle road.
            The only alternative to that, given he doesn’t seem to think that any alternative road is proposed would be the Pahiatua Track, which is about 20 km south.
            That means, of course, that Woodville is being condemned to a slow death as the traffic won’t get near it.
            It also means that all the road traffic, and there are an awful lot of cars each day, will have go through Ashhurst and then over the dreadful Saddle Road.
            Would the Green Party improve that road? All the candidate talks about is the railway. What improvements does he propose to the highway?
            He also doesn’t seem to bother about the fact that the bulk of the train traffic actually goes north to Hawkes bay, not south to the Wairarapa.
            He also talks about thinking “long term”. Just how long does he mean?

            • weka 15.1.1.1.1.1
              21 July 2017 at 5:41 pm

              No what I’m saying is you misrepresented what he said. It’s a paragraph in a media report, I really think if you want to know more you should ask the party. But I also know you routinely tell lies about the Greens and so I doubt your interest in their view is genuine.

    • exkiwiforces 15.2
      22 July 2017 at 12:18 am

      I won’t be surprise the about the ongoing slips in the Manawatu Gorge are earthquake related and the ongoing weather events of late have sped up the rate of movement on the Cliff face?

      The powers it be may have now realize that they maybe pissing money down the hole?

      http://quakelive.co.nz/ show’s two fault lines either side of the Manawatu Gorge

  16. Cinny 16
    21 July 2017 at 4:12 pm

    This is super concerning.. people are dying from taking plastic pot

    Meanwhile someone is profiting from what appears to be fatal plastic pot

    FFS Legalize cannabis, people don’t die from cannabis. Then they could go out into the back yard and pick their own medicine instead of some plastic pot death dealing arsehole making money. Regulate cannabis, then there would be no plastic pot market whatsoever.

    Black market obviously can’t keep up with the cannabis demand, and in comes the plastic pot, could be oven cleaner sprayed on oregano for all the buyer knows.

    I’m so over this crap still happening, no action, and now fatalities.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/94977752/police-reported-to-be-investigating-multiple-synthetic-cannabis-deaths

  17. lprent 17
    21 July 2017 at 11:06 pm

    The brief disruption was due to stopping the primary server to extract a Samsung EVO850 120GB SSD that appears to have stopped working. The other 5 Intel drives are working fine on the system.

    There were only 20 of you on the site at the time, so I figured that it was about as low as I was going to get before about 0200. I guess the weather is as bad or worse everywhere else as it is in Auckland.

    • adam 17.1
      21 July 2017 at 11:30 pm

      Sorry I was one of the 20, but was watching ‘death in paradise’. So I didn’t even notice. But as always just in case you don’t hear it enough. Thanks for the great job lprent.

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