Daily Review 20/07/2017

Written By: - Date published: 5:30 pm, July 20th, 2017 - 51 comments
Categories: Daily review - Tags:

Daily review is also your post.

This provides Standardistas the opportunity to review events of the day.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Don’t forget to be kind to each other …

51 comments on “Daily Review 20/07/2017”

  1. weka 1

    Has anyone looked closely enough at the TOP Youth UBI that they can answer a few questions?

    From what I can tell the $10,000/yr is paid on top of any wages or salary (apart from benefits). So if someone earns $40,000 in the hand they get $50,000/yr, is that right? i.e. no tax clawback, they get that total amount.

    I feel like I’m missing something here.

    • mauī 1.1

      Yeah that’s right I think. $10,000 after tax.

      • Sabine 1.1.1

        after what tax?

        tax on the earnings, or tax on earnings before tax plus UBI?

        • mauī

          From their policy:

          There are around 337,780 people in this age group. Giving each a UBI of $10,000 would cost around $3.39 Billion per year.

          – Number of New Zealanders 18-23 – 337,780
          – UBI Level – $10,000 per year after tax
          – Total cost of $3,388,800,000

          • weka

            They’re paying for that in part by not giving youth a benefit. If you are currently on the dole you lose it at get the $10,000 instead. It’s a bit of an increase on the youth dole, but it’s still beggars belief that they would take money from the poorest kids and use it to pay the ones a bit less poor up to outright wealthy ones.

            This is what I mean when I say that TOP’s policies are not left wing. I don’t even think this one is that progressive. It looks like a more advanced version of what Labour do. Fix jobs and manage people via the economy but don’t trust them.

            The tax stuff I don’t get, which is why I”m trying to figure out if high income earners pay more tax to balance this out. I can’t find TOP’s proposed PAYE tax rates in their policies.

            • weka

              The other thing that is fucking me off about this is that I’ve spent quite a bit of time trying to understand TOP policies and I still can’t quite get them to work. They’re really bad at explaining. If you look at their Youth UBI policy, there’s a lot about what’s good about a UBI, and a big chunk explaining how they will pay for it, but almost nothing explaining what people in different situations will get. Almost like it’s not written for young people but for business people, politicians and economists. Too bad if you don’t have that language.

              • Sabine

                they will reduce the Payee rate….but not mention by how much to what etc.
                they will tax Nana’s and Poppa’s house, but its all good cause presumably Gareth Morgan will also have the tax on his houses.

                what they don’t say is what tax loopholes they will remove considering that they only benefit the very rich.

                what they don’t say is how much money people like Gareth Morgan who currently pay no tax will end up paying when they are done means testing us.

                so essentially a bit of a ‘i steal from you to give to him and to give to me’,

                yeah, still voting for Labour/Green.

                • weka


                  • RedLogix

                    For years people on the left have moaned and bitched about bastard landlords, bastard tenancy laws and the very low levels of security, standards and behaviours in the industry. And with some qualifications I’ve supported this argument. In our own business we’ve done our best to do way better than all the horror stories than people love trotting out.

                    But a rental tenancy is a two-way relationship. Both parties have rights and responsibilities. This is the basis of the very successful German model, and works way better than the shit show carnival we have.

                    If it were the Greens or even Labour who had the brains and/or balls to not just talk about it, but actually base policy on it … you’d be over the moon.

                    • weka

                      Not sure what you are on about there Red, there’s lots of good things about the German model.

            • RedLogix

              If you are currently on the dole you lose it at get the $10,000 instead.

              Not quite. I’ve already linked to this in the OM thread:

              The UBI would replace the first $10,000 (after tax) of benefits received by 18-23 year olds. The benefit of the UBI to this group as opposed to targeted benefits is that people would not lose it if they moved into paid employment.


              So if you are already receiving a benefit between the ages of 18 – 23 the first $10,000 is replaced by the UBI. You don’t ‘lose’ the benefit at all. You continue to receive the same amount in total.

              But unlike a benefit, if move into paid work, or study you continue to receive the $10,000 UBI.

              PS: Also under the FAQ’s:

              This UBI will replace Jobseeker Support, Student Allowance, and the first $10,000 of the Supported Living Payment and Sole Parent Support. All other benefits and top ups remain the same.

              • weka

                So someone on youth dole today would end up on $10,000/yr (a $15/wk increase), but someone earning would get their wages + $10,000/yr (a $192/wk increase).

                Did I get that right?

                • RedLogix

                  Yes that looks right. The UBI essentially ensures your income can never drop below that level. It’s yours by right, not by some WINZ office whim.

                  If your benefit is currently less than the UBI, then logically it would be entirely replaced by the UBI.

                  If you receive more than the UBI, you get that plus a benefit reduced by $10,000 that tops you up to to the same total income.

            • Craig H

              Reduce by a third, apparently – http://www.top.org.nz/info graphic

              So that would be approximately 7%, 12%, 20% and 22%, + ACC levies. Having said that, Gareth likes flat taxes, so no guarantees.

              • weka

                that’s a dead link.

              • RedLogix

                I’ve missed that information, but the link doesn’t work.

                • Craig H

                  I did it on my phone and now I can’t edit it, but the proper link is http://www.top.org.nz/info_graphic .

                  Alternatively, go to their blog page (http://www.top.org.nz/blog) and it’s a few stories down.

                  • weka

                    those links work but I can’t see the tax rates in them.

                    • RedLogix

                      The pic on the left indicates “Cut Income Tax Rates by 1/3”.

                      While I agree this is still lacks hard numbers, it’s a pretty firm indication.

                    • weka

                      could be overall tax rates though rather than each bracket.

                    • Craig H

                      Agree, that’s why I said no guarantees, and it could be flat rates since Gareth likes them. Another option would be to lower GST since it’s regressive, or some mix of these.

                    • weka

                      One of the ways I learned about what a UBI is was from Red Logix’s post on it, which I had thought was sourced from Morgan’s Big Kahuna work. But Red’s idea was to use higher tax at the top end so that people who didn’t need the UBI wouldn’t actually end up with extra cash unless their income dropped.

                      Morgan’s idea isn’t that at all from what I can tell. I find his tax ideas broadly understandable and interesting, but once we get into the detail it doesn’t make sense. Like how can they not have published what the tax rates would be? How can one try and reform tax without including that?

            • Loop

              Hi there Weka. You say you don’t trust Top. Personally I don’t trust career politician so am going to do the only logical thing, vote Labour/Top. Not that I’m that keen on Labour, and as a lot of commentaters are saying some of top policy doesn’t make total sense. But, I am REALLY unkeen on another 3 years of natz.
              Labour is much “same old” as are most of the usual suspects but top is looking to bring a bit of social equity back to Enzed. Labour, I guess, will be able to moderate some of Gareths policies that fall short and vise versa.
              I am not as well read as most on this site, but I’m not that naive that voting for traditional mix of parties is going to produce the economic change EnZed needs to turn things around. It definately isn’t going to be an easy fix as natz(surjon) has left us in a hell of a state with all his monetary sleight of hand over the last 9.

          • Sabine

            so when it is taxed ? and at how much?

            and will Gareth Morgan and his wife and others like them also receive this payment?

            and will they still be able to avoid taxes left rigth and centre?

            same with that Nana tax, can this tax be used by people like Gareth Morgan as a tax write off say under ‘ business expense’ or ‘running costs’ or ‘maintenance’ or some such thing.

            cause there is nothing nowhere about that.

            • weka

              “and will Gareth Morgan and his wife and others like them also receive this payment?”

              It’s a youth UBI, so no.

              “cause there is nothing nowhere about that.”

              For all the touting of how amazing and radical their taxation policy is, I can’t find much about it.

              • Sabine

                i am not talking about the youth UBI
                UBI for general population.

                • weka

                  apparently yes then. Which I find confusing because the models I looked at got the payment back via higher tax rates but I can’t find TOP’s proposed tax rates.

                  • Sabine

                    it would not matter, as the man would still end up not paying any taxes but will now be paid a UBI 🙂 can’t make that shit up now.

                    yeah, nah nah.

            • RedLogix

              so when it is taxed ? and at how much?

              No. The UBI is designed as an unconditional, untaxed payment. One way of looking at it to think of it as a ‘negative tax’, in other words a payment IRD gives to you, rather than one you give to IRD. It would make no sense to tax it a second time.

              and will Gareth Morgan and his wife and others like them also receive this payment?

              Yes. If and when the UBI was extended to the whole population then yes it would be extended to everyone regardless of income or wealth.

              But of course at the same time wealthy people like the Morgans would be paying a lot more tax under a CCT and changes to PAYE. Much more than the UBI they would receive. What matters really is the total tax paid.

              and will they still be able to avoid taxes left rigth and centre

              Ah no. That is the whole point of the CCT (Asset Tax), that it would treat all forms of income, whether in cash or in kind the same.

              can this tax be used by people like Gareth Morgan as a tax write off say under ‘ business expense’ or ‘running costs’ or ‘maintenance’ or some such thing.

              No. Absolutely not. Tax is just not the same thing as any of those things you mention.

              • Sabine

                you have absolutely no guarantee to say absolutely not.

                its like National saying no new taxes , but we increase GSt.

                as far as i understand this, he will change income tax (something he does not pay as he is too rich to pay taxes) by tweaking it a bit, give some money to everyone (inclusive himself – unless there is an exempt clause for people like him which there is not), raise a tax on the family home (again he could care less of that he has several investment homes next to the family home – which might actually be owned by his ‘charity’ and thus he will pay no tax on it).

                so as i said before, he proposes to take from some to give to others and that includes him.

                So how is he making it fairer? oh yeah, he is not.

                • RedLogix

                  Well the idea is, quite clear and plain, is to take from the top 20% and give to the bottom 80%. You’re a very odd kind of left-winger if you object to this.

                  Or more likely you just don’t have a clue what your talking about.

              • Loop

                As I stated in a post above, I am not that well read in financial/policy detail as you lifers here.
                But what you say above is how I understood this policy.
                A lot here seem to be wanting to pull things apart. Too much thought will see natz back in.
                I don’t see Top like I saw prebble/douglas and we are still suffering from their decisions.

  2. The decrypter 2

    Excuse me –,but if there’s any confusion I want to be in on it.

  3. Bearded Git 4

    Labour has finally worked out that a simple message plays well to the public, their “Ditch the Tax Cuts; Education, Health, Housing and No to Poverty instead” message is coming through well.

  4. Ad 5

    Anyone miss Obama yet?
    I sure do:

    • Andre 5.1

      Luther does too. He was holding it in so well, but it had to come out sometime.

    • adam 5.2

      Really Ad, really.

      I know he looks good when compared to the red menace.

      But he who has upped the stakes, and kill loads of civilians, got it all off this Guy. Just in case you missed the mass surveillance, increased of Drone strikes, and the real shitty way he made working people pay for the mistakes of bankers.

      So do I miss shitty liberalism with a nice smile – short answer, no.

    • Not really but, then, I never really thought he was that good except for showing just how powerless the POTUS is.

    • Sabine 5.4


    • Loop 5.5

      The same ability as our very own surjon, approve drone strikes on civilian targets and hold that ever so lovely smile.
      Edit: Just saw Adam 5.2 above and agree. People choose to be willfully blind to the atrocities these 2 perform because it is “for the greater good”.

  5. joe90 6



    Here's my litigator's take on letters sent by the Senate Judiciary today to Junior and Manafort basically asking for the same thing. 1/ pic.twitter.com/VvhEpX1IQp— Paul Dickinson (@prdickinson) July 20, 2017

  6. Ad 7

    Muller expands his investigation into Trump’s financial dealings.


    My bet is Muller is fired for this expansion.

    Otherwise Ross has to go, as does Kushner, since they are in that Cyprus money up to their necks.

    Then we head for a crisis.

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