Open mike 21/10/2011

98 comments on “Open mike 21/10/2011 ”

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1. Jenny 1

   21 October 2011 at 6:51 am

   Number of cars crushed by Judith (crusher) Collins – 0

   Number of prisons made smoke free by Judith (cougher) Collins – 0

   Prisoners openly stand around smoking in front of guards, the air is heavily scented with cigarette smoke.

   Corrections Officers say the whole policy is a joke, and could only be enforced with massive and violent over the top methods.

   Desperate prisoners have even resorted to smoking their patches, and even risking electrocution by getting a light jamming tin foil into the wall plugs, and shorting out the power systems on a regular basis.

   If they had been asked, Corrections Officers said the policy may have had some chance, if instead of a blanket ban, smoking was only banned from indoor areas – as in other public buildings.

   Number of prison officers asked for their advice by Judith (la la land) Collins – 0
   • Lanthanide 1.1

     21 October 2011 at 9:39 am

     Increased cost on the taxpayer for funding unlimited nicotine patches and lozenges per inmate: who knows.
     • Vicky32 1.1.1

       23 October 2011 at 4:54 pm

       Increased cost on the taxpayer for funding unlimited nicotine patches and lozenges per inmate: who knows.

       What’s your point? Non-imates can get subsidised patches – I have some from my abortive attempt to quit (before the company I worked for collapsed.) It’s well-known to anyone who  cares about people rather than just about enforcing their will on the unworthy, that quitting is next to impossible in high-stress situations. Don’t kid yourself that Tariana’s policy was about anyone’s “health” – it was purely a punitive power play, with a dose of middle class snobbery thrown in. The middle classes drink (oh man do they drink!)  but they love to sneer at the working and beneficiary classes who smoke.
       • Jenny 1.1.1.1

         23 October 2011 at 11:09 pm

         What’s your point? Non-imates can get subsidised patches…..

         Vicky32

         Non-inmates:

         Don’t dry used tea leaves,

         Don’t sprinkle the contents of nicotine patches, or crushed lozenges over dried tea leaves,

         Don’t smoke this vile concoction.
       • millsy 1.1.1.2

         24 October 2011 at 12:17 pm

         Not a big fan of smokers or smoking, regardless of socio-economic status, but you make a good point there, Vicky. Though I see it more in the furore over liqour outlets. If a bottle store opens in a poor area there is a huge outrage, but barely a peep if it is in a middle-upper class area.
         • Vicky32 1.1.1.2.1

           24 October 2011 at 2:56 pm

           Though I see it more in the furore over liqour outlets. If a bottle store opens in a poor area there is a huge outrage, but barely a peep if it is in a middle-upper class area

           A very good point, millsy!
2. chris73 2

   21 October 2011 at 6:51 am

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/africa/5826304/Gaddafi-killed-as-last-stronghold-falls

   Better late then never I guess
   • millsy 2.1

     21 October 2011 at 6:59 am

     A new era for Libya I suppose. The ‘rebels’ can at last claim an absolute victory.
     • chris73 2.1.1

       21 October 2011 at 7:04 am

       I don’t care who claims the kill, just that hes dead
       • Hanswurst 2.1.1.1

         21 October 2011 at 7:14 am

         A bit bloodthirsty of you, chris73. Isn’t it enough for you just to see his régime toppled?
         • chris73 2.1.1.1.1

           21 October 2011 at 6:35 pm

           I think the world is a better place (however small) because hes dead.
           • Colonial Viper 2.1.1.1.1.1

             21 October 2011 at 6:50 pm

             Doesn’t matter to you that he might have been executed?

             Or that he might have been toppled because the west wanted his oil reserves (the second largest in Africa)?

             Or that Tony Blair might have sucked him into a non-aggression pact that the west was never intending to honour?

             Or that Obama might have pushed for this as a campaign lead up to an election year?

             Or that NATO and US forces have now bombed Libya back to the stone age, so that it will be entirely reliant on debt funding from the IMF and World Bank? (as a precursor to taking the countries mineral assets away)?

             yeah the world sure looks like a better place.
             • chris73 …

               21 October 2011 at 6:59 pm

               Doesn’t matter to you that he might have been executed?
               – No, dead is dead

               Or that he might have been toppled because the west wanted his oil reserves (the second largest in Africa)?
               – Doesn’t matter, still a terrorist douche bag

               Or that Tony Blair might have sucked him into a non-aggression pact that the west was never intending to honour?
               – Didn’t rhink Blair was that smart but good on him (Sun Tzu would probably approve)

               Or that Obama might have pushed for this as a campaign lead up to an election year?
               – So what

               Or that NATO and US forces have now bombed Libya back to the stone age, so that it will be entirely reliant on debt funding from the IMF and World Bank? (as a precursor to taking the countries mineral assets away)?
               – I’m sure Gaddafi had a hand in keeping his people in the stone age already

               yeah the world sure looks like a better place.
               – Well its a good start
             • Vicky32 …

               23 October 2011 at 5:04 pm

               Or that he might have been toppled because the west wanted his oil reserves (the second largest in Africa)?

               Or water, I’ve heard…

               Or that Obama might have pushed for this as a campaign lead up to an election year?

               Seems very likely!

               Or that NATO and US forces have now bombed Libya back to the stone age, so that it will be entirely reliant on debt funding from the IMF and World Bank? (as a precursor to taking the countries mineral assets away)?

               Oh yes, and the country resembles one of the inner circles of hell right now. I am very suspicious about it – and have been all along… “Libya has been liberated!” a newsreader just cried excitedly on the BBC. Yeah, right!
       • Carol 2.1.1.2

         21 October 2011 at 7:26 am

         Actually, I would have preferred Gaddafi was kept alive. There’s probably a few skeletons in his closet that would rattle some western governments.
         • Colonial Viper 2.1.1.2.1

           21 October 2011 at 7:38 am

           Including a fair few agreements and assurances that were made between Libya, the UK and the US. Let’s see what happens to Gaddaffi’s children; they each had a role in helping him run the state and will also know much.
         • William Joyce 2.1.1.2.2

           21 October 2011 at 10:26 am

           @Carol, I guess you’re right. They’ll be a few “Western Interests” giving a sigh of relief today that he’s not alive to tell stories.
           Problem is that doubt he would have made a good witness as I think, mentally, he had been treading water in the deep end for too long. Some have said drugs, others mental illness.
            
           This is probably more a geo-political chess move disguised as a revolution of the people. If you are the US (and Britain & France) you want to ensure a continual supply of oil (especially of the quality that Libya has) from a compliant state. The Ghadaffi (?) dynasty government was far too independent and unreliable to be allowed to continue.
           Saudi Arabia is on side, Iraq is now in the bag, Southern Sudan is now independent, Nigeria is a basket case and now Libya is accessible.
           So who’s next? Who is the next country that is going to have “democracy” brought to them in exchange for oil?
           • Gosman 2.1.1.2.2.1

             21 October 2011 at 11:59 am

             Where is the evidence William Joyce that Western nations get preferential treatment in handling of oil contracts after military intervention?

             Your musings on this topic are essentially conspiratorial nonsense mascarading as an attempt at serious geopolitical analysis.
             • William Joyce …

               21 October 2011 at 12:16 pm

               It was on CNN this morning.
             • Colonial Viper …

               21 October 2011 at 12:40 pm

               Where is the evidence William Joyce that Western nations get preferential treatment in handling of oil contracts after military intervention?

               Its part of the business case.

               Other wise the military intervention would not be profitable.
             • Puddleglum …

               21 October 2011 at 1:59 pm

               Try here, here and here in relation to Libya. Try here, here and here 🙂 for Iraq.

               Conspiracy theories are one thing; naivety quite another. 
               • Gosman …

                 21 October 2011 at 3:19 pm

                 Wow! Shock – Horror – Western Oil firms are interested in making money in oil rich nations!

                 Who would have thunk it.

                 The only link to something suggesting impropriety in handling of these contracts is an opinion piece which state that handling out technical contracts to multinational oil firms rather than specialists is unusual. However that is then countered by a quote in the next link which explains this as follows “But the deals, known as service contracts, are unusual, said Greg Mutitt, co-director of Platform, an oil industry research group. “Normally such service contracts are carried out by specialist companies … The majors are not normally interested in such deals, preferring to invest in projects that give them a stake in ownership of extracted oil and the potential for large profits. The explanation is that they see them as a stepping stone…” ”

                 One of your links was about oil interest BEFORE military intervention in Libya and one of them was a Cartoon as far as I could see. This is the best you could do???

                 Someone stated that this information was on CNN this morning. If so I’m sure it is easy enough to link the article to make your case stronger.

                 Just to reiterate, as it seems some of you are having difficulty comprehending what is being asked here, where is the evidence that Western Oil firms are benefiting unproperly as a result of military intervention by Western nations in oil rich countries?
                 • Puddleglum …

                   21 October 2011 at 3:51 pm

                   “where is the evidence that Western Oil firms are benefiting unproperly as a result of military intervention by Western nations in oil rich countries?”

                   Gosman, is war an ‘unproper’ way to carry out business? Before each of these invasions the oil was being exploited by quite a different set of companies/state agencies. There was interest from western oil companies in gaining access to Libyan oil (which, as you note, one of my links provides evidence for).

                   After the invasions, a set of companies that just happened to match (in ‘home nationality’ status) the countries doing the invading are lined up to do the exploiting.

                   Further, in one of those links it also noted that the service contracts in Iraq were written with US State Department help. Is that ‘proper’?

                   Evidence, in both a legal and scientific sense, is not usually ‘cast iron’. Rather, it is used to build a case. In that sense, there is ample evidence that the oil contracts were a result of improper practices (including invasion).

                   I included the cartoon as a humorous punchline for the links – hence my attempt at a ‘smiley’ just after it (though it didn’t appear as the full yellow-faced icon we’ve all come to love (?)) 
                   • felix …

                     21 October 2011 at 4:14 pm

                     Gosman has always had trouble understanding the difference between evidence and proof.

                     He demands the former thinking it synonymous with the latter.

                     And then when the former is provided in abundance he gets on his high horse because it isn’t the latter that he thought he was demanding.

                     lol.
                   • travellerev …

                     23 October 2011 at 5:37 pm

                     Felix, That about sums Gosman up! LOL
         • uke 2.1.1.2.3

           21 October 2011 at 12:42 pm

           Another Libyan resource now likely to be pillaged by Western corporate interests, specifically French corporations, are the massive water aquifers in the south of the country.
            
           Always follow the money.
            
            
         • Brett Dale 2.1.1.2.4

           21 October 2011 at 2:46 pm

           Carol:

           Seriously, you dont care that his people is no longer under a tyrant and torturer, you just
           want western governments to be embarrassed ?
           • Puddleglum 2.1.1.2.4.1

             21 October 2011 at 2:55 pm

             Brett Dale,

             If he was kept alive, as Carol had wished, Libyans would still be “no longer under a tyrant and torturer”, so I’m not sure what your point is.

             Also, we are led to believe that the rebel forces had taken him alive and intended to keep him alive. Whether or not that is simply propaganda, it is also true that it could be to the advantage of Libyan people to find out things from Gaddafi about the country’s situation (e.g., any hidden wealth, corruptly instituted contracts with foreign companies that they may now wish to re-litigate or annul, etc.). 
         • The Pink Postman 2.1.1.2.5

           23 October 2011 at 1:58 pm

           That’s the reason he was shot Carol /The Capitalist West has so much to hide . I would presume it will be hidden from public view until most of us have gone ahead.
           • Vicky32 2.1.1.2.5.1

             23 October 2011 at 5:17 pm

             That’s the reason he was shot

             Exactly! On Radio NZ this morning, I kept hearing on the news that the “rebel leader” regretted that Ghaddafi was dead, and that he “had tried to save him”. Tui billboard!
       • felix 2.1.1.3

         21 October 2011 at 7:31 am

         Wouldn’t you rather he were tried, chris?
         • Bored 2.1.1.3.1

           21 October 2011 at 7:51 am

           There may be some reasons people dont want him tried, dead is far more convenient.

           http://www.cluborlov.blogspot.com/
           • Colonial Viper 2.1.1.3.1.1

             21 October 2011 at 6:54 pm

             Club Orlov, nice holiday spot that one.
         • chris73 2.1.1.3.2

           21 October 2011 at 8:18 pm

           Only if it was guaranteed that he’d be executed once hes found guilty, if not then no.
           • felix 2.1.1.3.2.1

             23 October 2011 at 9:06 am

             So it’s not actually about justice then. Good to know.
       • travellerev 2.1.1.4

         21 October 2011 at 8:25 am

         Dirty raghead eh Cris? Never mind the tens of thousands of other people who were killed during the raids and the new Ambassador calling Libia the jewel in the crown because of the oil and gold they can loot, you sad racist piece of shit.
         • Kevin Welsh 2.1.1.4.1

           21 October 2011 at 9:05 am

           That’s not what he said Ev, so don’t twist it. He referenced the stuff article and then said he was glad Gadaffi was dead. Not even close to what you just commented.
           • chris73 2.1.1.4.1.1

             21 October 2011 at 8:22 pm

             Cheers

             Its sad (but typical I guess) that little dick-smacks like ev read what they want in a statement.

             He/she sees a statement as racist even when theres no racist statements in it, kind of suggests that he/she might be a little bit racist…
         • Tiger Mountain 2.1.1.4.2

           21 October 2011 at 9:09 am

           Second that ev. If NATO and the oil men can do this to Libya they can do it to any country that suits. With peak oil these people are desperate for more fossil fuel supplies.

           A new regime that appears to have started with an execution rather than a trial of the deposed ex leader is not a great beginning for any Libyans expecting enhanced human rights. I predict they will have a US compliant government that oversees the export of oil wealth to the detriment of local needs.
           • William Joyce 2.1.1.4.2.1

             21 October 2011 at 10:39 am

             “With peak oil these people are desperate for more fossil fuel supplies.”
              
             For that reason I am concerned about the possibility for foreign pressure on our government (overt or covert) to open up our EEZ to foreign oil companies.
             • Colonial Viper …

               21 October 2011 at 7:04 pm

               Don’t worry, we’ve got sweet FA proven reserves so its a big fat nothing until someone finds 10Bb equivalent somewhere around here.
         • Gosman 2.1.1.4.3

           21 October 2011 at 10:13 am

           How are they going to loot the oil?

           You just can’t go in there and scoop up a bunch of it in the back of trucks. You actually need to invest heavily in the infrastructure for extraction..

           Also there is no evidence that Western oil firms get the oil for free from places like Iraq so why would you think Libya was going to be any different?
           • William Joyce 2.1.1.4.3.1

             21 October 2011 at 10:34 am

             It’s not about free but reliable supply and at a reasonable price.
             What will be interesting is what is going to happen to Libya’s assets? LIA has position in GE, Catepillar, Citigroup, Haliburton, BASF and more in Italy and France (plus millions in bank accounts).
             NATO may confiscate these in return for the cost of the air strikes.
             • Gosman …

               21 October 2011 at 10:51 am

               Ummmmmm…. Western oil firms had reliable supply and at a reasonable price BEFORE the Libyan uprising.

               If anything having a country without a firm and dictatorial leadership increases instability. You lefties should know this. That is why many of you keep claiming that the West loves the leaders of Saudi Arabia.

               Of course you could easily win this argument by pointing out an example in Iraq where Western oil firms have been able to get preferential treatment in oil contracts. Perhaps you could find this evidence in this article on the subject http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/02/iraq-oil-production-increasing-to-3.html
               • William Joyce …

                 21 October 2011 at 11:05 am

                 With peak oil and the pressure to ensure this is an “American century” and/or the dominance of the west it is about ensuring supply is reliable – you do that by having more than one source in the event that the source you have relied upon “BEFORE the Libyan uprising” is no longer available.
                  
                 “If anything having a country without a firm and dictatorial leadership increases instability.”
                 It is not about the type of government (democrartic or dictatorial) but whether they will be compliant with your objectives. The US, Britain et al have historically shown that they will do deals with the devil as long as it gets them what they want.
                 • Gosman …

                   21 October 2011 at 11:41 am

                   Avoiding the issue I see there William Joyce

                   “The US, Britain et al have historically shown that they will do deals with the devil as long as it gets them what they want.”

                   Quite possibly true however there doesn’t seem to be any evidence that they get better deals after a military intervention. If you note the article I linked to you will have noted the large influence of Chinese oil companies in developing Iraqi fields.
                   • William Joyce …

                     21 October 2011 at 12:33 pm

                     I didn’t argue preferential contracts. As I said it was not about free but cheap, available, constant.
                     I assume market prices will still prevail (in theory – the more supply the cheaper).
                     But cost is less of a consideration than available and constant. You cannot be a world power, and project that power unless you have oil to power your planes and to run the economy at home.
                     With regard to assets – CNN listed the investments made by LIA and that there would be an expectation that NATO countries would be reimbursed.
                     Look back in history (read the book The Prize) and you will see that the geo-politics of the mid-east has been about oil as far back as the early 20th century.
                   • Bored …

                     21 October 2011 at 12:36 pm

                     Last week I gave Dave Brown the Trotskyite a hard time about his contentions about the Russian revolution…his theological attachment to his dogma spoke louder to him than the corpses of the victims. The record was written in blood for all to see.

                     I would contend that support of the US / European incursions into the Middle East will be equally judged in terms of morality by the very substantial body count of the innocents. We are all beneficiaries of the oil flow and therefore culpable because we subscribe to and foster a model of economy that takes what it wants from whoever gets in the way. No easy answers here.
                   • McFlock …

                     21 October 2011 at 12:41 pm

                     “Most of the incremental oil will come from work by BP and China National Petroleum Corp. at Rumaila, an Eni-led group at Zubair and — later in the year — from Exxon Mobil and Royal Dutch Shell at West Qurna-Phase 1.”
                      
                     Chinese oil companies? Only one, in partnership with BP. The rest are part of the “Coalition of the Willing”. I note, for example, a lack of mention of any Russian companies. Or Iraqi, for that matter.
                   • Gosman …

                     21 October 2011 at 3:24 pm

                     Your argument does not hold water William Joyce. The Libyan and Iraqi governments still control the awarding of oil extraction rights in their nations. They can quite easily withdraw these at some stage in the future.

                     The fact that these nations are far more democratic now means that there will be in fact less stability in relation to this than if the countries was being run by a brutal dictator. If I sign an agreement with a brutal dictator I can be reasonably assured that he will be in power for a number of years. There is no way of knowing in places like Iraq if the agreement you signed might not be repudiated by another government that is less interested in maintaining good relations with the country that you are based in.
                   • Gosman …

                     21 October 2011 at 3:37 pm

                     Mcflock – I believe when the article mentions the Iraq’s Missan Oil Co it is fair to assume this is an Iraqi bassed oil company. In fact you can read more about it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missan_Oil_Company

                     What you fail to deal with is the fact that there is Chinese there at all in a major role should be evidence that the West is not controlling Iraq’s oil extraction. Why would the West allow the Chinese a key role when the Chinese were less than happy with the 2003 invasion?
                   • McFlock …

                     21 October 2011 at 3:53 pm

                     I stand corrected – an Iraqi company has a 25% share in a field that produces 265,000bpd, so they basically account for 70,000bpd out of 4,000,000bpd (based on the cumulative field totals).

                     As for the Chinese involvement, you always give a taste of the action to the guy who bankrolls your existence at the moment. 

                     But the majority of contracts went to members of the “Coalition of the Willing”.
                   • William Joyce …

                     21 October 2011 at 4:13 pm

                     Gosman, I understand your point that, theoretically, there is a greater certainty of making a deal and having continued supply if there is only one person to deal with.
                     But there can come a point (and we have seen it so often in US foreign policy) where the ally can become the enemy.
                     These events more than likely come about for a combination of reasons and so may or may not be about oil. But one thing is certain, when the dust settles, they want to have their foot in the door. Yes, there is less certainty if a democracy is in place but democracies can be surprisingly easy to manipulate/corrupt.
                     As I said above…
                     The Ghadaffi (?) dynasty government was far too independent and unreliable to be allowed to continue.
                      
                     Did the US start the revolution?  I don’t know, probably not. But once it was under way I am sure that France and Britain saw a possible end game that would work in their favour – hence the pressure they put on the US to intervene.
                     It’s one thing to have oil agreements with Libya but a better thing to have an oil supply agreement + access to other resources + an open market to invest in + an economy that can be supplied with western products.
                     It should be pointed out France and possibly Britain had other reasons to see Gadaffi gone – if I remember rightly something to do with telecommunications, money lent to France (or was his Sarkosy’s political funds – I can’t remember)
                      
                     Intervention is an action. The motives for intervention can differ. The Neo-Cons who want American dominance in the world see the chance to ease their concerns about supply. The liberals see intervention as a means to support some sort of democratic self-determination.
                     Dick Cheney made it perfectly clear (and I which I could give you a reference) that the future of US foreign policy (diplomatic and military) was all about securing the supply of oil.
                   • felix …

                     21 October 2011 at 4:25 pm

                     Gosman has always had trouble understanding the difference between conspiracy and opportunism.

                     Until recently he still had a black and white tv. He only got rid of it because the shades of grey were confusing him.
           • Vicky32 2.1.1.4.3.2

             23 October 2011 at 5:22 pm

             . You actually need to invest heavily in the infrastructure for extraction..

             What makes you think there’s not already an infrastructure? Maybe you think that Libya is just a wide oasis in the desert, with airports comprising a few Nissen huts surrounded by camels and a few WW2 jeeps… (as portrayed in American movies.)
3. millsy 3

   21 October 2011 at 7:01 am

   Thank heaven for small mercies. The slash and burn Tea-Party Hamilton City Council has backed down on proposed charges for library books. They will still make huge cuts to their libarary budget, but at least there was some place they were willing to stop.
   • Kevin Welsh 3.1

     21 October 2011 at 8:19 am

     Damn right they should be thankful Millsy. They are getting a spanking new velodrome (strangely situated at a private school), what the hell do they need books for?
     • travellerev 3.1.1

       21 October 2011 at 9:05 am

       The rate payers group of Hamilton is growing at an alarming rate with more and more young people and ex-Nat voters. Nothing gets people more upset as rising taxes and lowering house prices with the money spend on stupid projects such a velodromes etc. while they can’t afford to buy their necessities anymore. Like $2 per book from the library to name but one.
       • freedom 3.1.1.1

         21 October 2011 at 9:59 am

         thankfully the Council has stepped back from that particular brainfart, but has said it will reduce new stock purchases amongst steps to scrape back spending.
     • Ianupnorth 3.1.2

       21 October 2011 at 10:45 am

       My submission on that proposal (the velodrome) indicated my concern over its location. The whole ‘cycling centre of excellence’ is now spread over a 100km triangle – a complete nonsense – it should have been in Rotorua as it was the only place that had all the requirements of the tender, but no money to ‘buy’ a velodrome.
        
       Still, the posh kids can have fun!
       • mik e 3.1.2.1

         21 October 2011 at 7:20 pm

         obviously part of keys cycleway
   • Zaphod Beeblebrox 3.2

     21 October 2011 at 9:18 am

     You’d think they could start by reducing their bloated roads budget.
     • ak 3.2.1

       21 October 2011 at 9:44 am

       Councils have become an even sicker joke over recent decades.

       People continue to elect any vain, bombastic buffoon that can pay to get their picture in the paper and then wonder why they end up with motley gaggles of barely-literate car salesmen and intellectually-challenged social climbers who proceed to trip over themselves in farcical efforts to make the most regressive taxation system in history even more punishing to the poorest.

       One day someone might examine the huge transfer of the rating burden from rich to poor (via eg UAGCs and targeted rates) but don’t hold your breath.

       They’re now easy meat and sitting ducks to any well-heeled lobby group and their own legions of upper-middle-class employees: many council staff and CEOs are now paid massively more than the CEO of the world’s largest bank (which incidentally is $150k – see Bernard Hickey’s blog of a couple of days ago)

       It’s a farce. And while they contribute vast amounts of ratepayers’ money to their local rags via advertising, they’ll continue to receive the same sychophantic press fellation as NACT, and the trend will continue.

       Either organise locally or expect more amalgamations and wave goodbye to local democracy.
       • just saying 3.2.1.1

         21 October 2011 at 10:26 am

         I couldn’t agree more ak.

         “Organising locally” is often difficult and time-consuming where ‘community ties’ have become most fractured, but urgently, and unavoidably necessary.
       • DJL 3.2.1.2

         21 October 2011 at 9:14 pm

         Micheal Redman, Hamiltons ad man form hell. Sorry Auckland he’s yours now.
4. Gosman 4

   21 October 2011 at 10:15 am

   No mention of the Labour party policy on Agriculture at the moment I see.

   It looks like the Labour party has decided to give up any hope of winning over the provinces and are pandering to it’s urban constinuency again.
   • NickS 4.1

     21 October 2011 at 12:40 pm

     Yes, because farmers should so be given free reign to ignore the RMA when it comes to water pollution from runoff and shovel off the costs of climate change to the government and public…
5. freedom 5

   21 October 2011 at 10:34 am

   Another well researched and clearly reasoned piece of work on the Occupy movement -sarc
   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10760490

   Why do journos insist on carrying on as if the rest of the world cannot use the Internet? Even if the [Journalist ? ] chooses not to do any basic research, most people i know do some level of fact checking especially when they are told to look the other way. Stories like this seem outdated and more and more desperate in their pathetic attempts to brand a popular global movement as if it is a Sociology capping stunt.
   • Blue 5.1

     21 October 2011 at 10:49 am

     It’s Deborah Hill Cone, Freedom. You can’t really expect much.
     • just saying 5.1.1

       21 October 2011 at 12:50 pm

       It’s always fascinated me that she has chosen (or at least not vetoed) a picture to accompany her “journalism”, in which one eye is covered. If I thought she had any capacity for self-awareness I’d think the one-eyed image was a bit of a joke.
     • McFlock 5.1.2

       21 October 2011 at 12:53 pm

       I loved the comment someone left on the page, along the lines of “let them eat cake, eh?”.

       It really was a mentally-vacant upper-middle-class opinion piece, the sort of thing someone says at a dinner party after a few too many glasses of chardonnay. With a wee hint of “but we’re smarter than them so we’re richer”.
     • Anne 5.1.3

       21 October 2011 at 7:54 pm

       @ Blue
       Have you ever heard her on Jim Mora’s The Panel session? She is the most loud mouthed, ignorant woman that has ever graced that programme. And that includes Christine Rankin before she won – courtesy of that other ignoramus, Paula Bennett – a spot on the Families Commission.
   • Gosman 5.2

     21 October 2011 at 10:54 am

     Which facts do you have a problem with?

     Care to point out the errors or are you just taking the bog standard approach to an opinion piece that you disagree with by stating it is all based on lies?

     I actually didn’t see anything in there that anybody could point out as being factually incorrect. You are entitled to disagree with her opinion and conclusion of course.
     • freedom 5.2.1

       21 October 2011 at 12:49 pm

       I take it you are referring to my “well researched” comment. I guess you didn’t bother reading to the end of the line where i also wrote “clearly reasoned”. The trick to comprehension there gosman is the relationship of information to the intent to persuade. Intent to persuade being a pretty big part of the whole ‘reasoning’ thing.

       I did not say she had misrepresented any facts, that issue is your interpretation. My issue is with what she wrote. The piece Ms Cone wrote is, as you point out, an opinion piece.

       An opinion published in a National Newspaper is an opportunity to express a view that few get to take advantage of. As a recepient of that privilege it is beholden of Ms Cone to inform herself of the topic she is making comment on. She has clearly failed to do. Her tone and statements, such as “Anyway, I suspect many of the Occupy protesters are not so much against capitalism per se, as feeling miffed that they personally are not rich capitalists. ” expose her ill-informed prejudice.

       I respect her right to voice her informed opinion, naturally, as i do yours. Informed opinions are the foundations on which we build our social norms and conventions. With strong foundations great structures can be built. Which is i why i object to foundations built of conjecture and ignorance.
       • Mac1 5.2.1.1

         21 October 2011 at 1:29 pm

         Her insinuation that the 1% got there by merit has the same prejudicial basis. Difficult to argue that one, factually.

         I watched a programme on Sky in which the medieval mind was explored. That mind believed the ruling class, the 1%ers, got there by merit and by superior genes, of course.
       • Gosman 5.2.1.2

         21 October 2011 at 3:27 pm

         What utter bollocks. You have no way of knowing how much information Deborah Cone has researched. Just because someone doesn’t share your opinion about a topic that must mean they are not as informed as you. The intellectual arrogance dripping from that is simply astounding to behold.
         • NickS 5.2.1.2.1

           21 October 2011 at 3:45 pm

           A (potentially) good point, but it’s shame that you’ve historically failed to follow it yourself. Unfortunately a quick skim over the article shows she done about a year 11 student level of research that borders on “not achieved” if we’re going on NCEA standards, and instead fills in by conjecturing with teh “jealously” hypothesis. Which when dealing with grass roots protests is a pretty clear cut case of pick and chose, instead of doing teh smart thing and looking at all the various voices…

           Also highly amusing is her referencing of a shining example of pseudoscience via bullshitting with statistics that is The Bell Curve as a hint that the rich are “smarter” than the poor and thus natural elites. Funny thing about that is that is, if memory serves me right, quick stats tests show little difference between the upper income earners and the rest of the population in terms of average intelligence, and that IQ scores aren’t a statistically significant predictor of a persons income.

           But hey, why try and wrap your head around complex causations behind income levels and old boys networks when you can play pretend and believe it’s down to “merit”?…
   • uke 5.3

     21 October 2011 at 5:04 pm

     And as the Occupy Wall Street movement continues to be critiqued from “on high”, it emerges that Goldman Sachs executives have awarded themselves US$10.01 billion in bonuses so far this year.
6. Colonial Viper 6

   21 October 2011 at 12:33 pm

   Multiple highly radioactive spots found all around Tokyo

   Japanese MSM seems complicit in keeping this quiet.

   http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/10/more-than-20-radioactive-hotspots-found-in-tokyo.html
7. NickS 7

   21 October 2011 at 12:42 pm

   Rush Limbaugh Sympathizes With Terrorist Sex Slavers, the Lords Resistance Army.

   It just had to be said…
8. Ianupnorth 8

   21 October 2011 at 12:49 pm

   Just when you thought it couldn’t get worse…..
   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10760745
    
   Macaroon’s coming to hang out with Key – more photo ops!
9. William Joyce 9

   21 October 2011 at 12:59 pm

   Whale stranded on Ohope beach. Conservationists concerned it may have ingested oil.
   I bet Key and Bridges won’t show up for a photo op with the whale!
    
   “I didn’t drive that whale onto the beach”

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5828339/Whale-strands-on-Ohope-Beach
10. marty mars 10

    21 October 2011 at 1:02 pm

    Good Press Release from the Mana Party where Ikaroa Rawhiti candidate Tawhai McClutchie calls for a complete cancellation on oil and gas development in New Zealand.

    “Tauranga Moana needs to be a wake-up call. Our country should be developing more widespread, community-based sustainable energy alternatives. Not only does it behove this country’s clean, green image, such sustainable energy alternatives help break our habit of oil dependence, puts power back into our people’s hands, and it is healthier for the environment and wildlife. All future oil operations must stop.”

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1110/S00359/national-the-party-of-irresponsibility-and-greed.htm

    I agree with this call because further exploitations are based on selfishness and greed and the myth of unending growth, which is false and illusory – it just isn’t going to happen – peak oil and the effects of climate change are happening now and the world as we have known it is changing, drastically. Community and connection are the only answer and this Press Release is part of the solution to the problems many refuse to acknowledge. As Tawhai says, “Their greed is insatiable.”
11. joe90 11

    21 October 2011 at 1:58 pm

    The rights war on the poor continues.
12. joe90 12

    21 October 2011 at 2:29 pm

    The Economist: The heat is on.

    A new analysis of the temperature record leaves little room for the doubters. The world is warming
    • NickS 12.1

      21 October 2011 at 3:48 pm

      There’s always room for doubt, you only have to look at young earth creationists raging against the far taller mountain of evidence for evolutionary biology on the basis of ideological beliefs 🙁
      • William Joyce 12.1.1

        21 October 2011 at 4:24 pm

        There ain’t no warmin’, e-volutchun and Jay-zus walked himself with the dyno-saws. And that nice Mista Key, ain’t he just the sweetest thang?
    • mik e 12.2

      21 October 2011 at 7:23 pm

      hey joe 90 funny how the temperature graph matches the CO 2 graph
13. joe90 13

    21 October 2011 at 2:51 pm

    What’s your Number?
14. logie97 14

    21 October 2011 at 6:04 pm

    I reckon Joky Hen fears a Brashional government and is therefore only prepared to put “Two Ticks National” when he votes.

    In fact, with so many current, former, and aspiring leaders of the National Party potentially there in November, they must all be watching their backs.

    The country knows where Brash stands on most issues and Key will find it very difficult to work with him.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/5830022/ACT-can-t-bank-on-Keys-support
15. logie97 15

    21 October 2011 at 7:54 pm

    Question: On the official programme for the final, will it say

    France vs New Zealand or France vs All Blacks?

    From memory, of following the tours of United Kingdom, the provincial/club games used to be against the All Blacks but the games against the then Five Nations, i.e the internationals, it was vs New Zealand.

    The All Blacks used to be the official touring party, bit like the MCC in cricket. The tests were against England but state and minor games were against the MCC.

    Has someone made a killing therefore on the printing of all those flags with All Blacks rather than New Zealand on them.
16. Colonial Viper 16

    21 October 2011 at 9:50 pm

    Greece continues to disintegrate as their politicians again choose the banksters over their own people

    The guillotine is the only answer at this stage.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/RussiaToday#p/u/4/YdL97_SE9nc
    • Draco T Bastard 16.1

      22 October 2011 at 12:04 am

      That’s always what it comes down to once the psychopaths take control.
17. ak 17

    21 October 2011 at 10:43 pm

    Haere ra Muammar

    You gave em shit for a while

    Danced em in circles

    Let the crushed masses smile

    But in the end it’s numbers

    And the width of the gall

    You sacrificed thousands

    While they’d take us all.

    Rest easy Muammar

    As they prance on your grave

    Join the warrior rank

    And sup deep to the brave.
    • chris73 17.1

      21 October 2011 at 11:45 pm

      Uh huh
    • travellerev 17.2

      23 October 2011 at 4:35 pm

      Amene!
    • higherstandard 17.3

      23 October 2011 at 4:40 pm

      -304
    • Vicky32 17.4

      23 October 2011 at 5:33 pm

      Rest easy Muammar
      As they prance on your grave
      Join the warrior rank
      And sup deep to the brave.

      Good words, ak!

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