Open mike 22/09/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 22nd, 2020 - 87 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

87 comments on “Open mike 22/09/2020 ”

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  1. adam 1
    22 September 2020 at 6:07 am

    Thank God for the ICIJ and the ABC. As dirty money is still rolling around the globe.

    https://www.icij.org/investigations/fincen-files/

    Video for those who want a quick introduction.

    • Adrian Thornton 1.1
      22 September 2020 at 8:16 am

      Yes as usual there is very little coverage of news that really matters diseminated by pretty much all msm outlets in NZ…I see RNZ and the Guardian managed to make this story all about RUSSIA and PUTIN yesterday…sort of like fake news really.

    • Draco T Bastard 1.2
      22 September 2020 at 11:58 am

      When making a profit is the prime objective then corruption is sure to follow. Why do it the hard way when its more profitable to do it the easy way?

    • Cinny 1.3
      22 September 2020 at 4:11 pm

      Informative clip, thanks for posting yes

  2. Ad 2
    22 September 2020 at 7:17 am

    It would be an excellent moment for Labour to announce a cash bonus to enable office workers to work from home, rather than use either the car or public transport.

    Both car use and public transport for commuting are massive sunk costs in public capital, and private productive time, and public transport is now a public health risk as well.

    At minimum it has the potential to lower the fragility of the Auckland network and delay costly infrastructure spend.

    At best it could permanently shift society to rely less on cars.

    And of course it would be a little redemptive policy goodness to come out of the pandemic.

  3. millsy 3
    22 September 2020 at 7:36 am

    Jacinda needs to put in a good performance at the first debate tonight. She cannot afford a "show me the money" moment. Collins will have few tricks so she needs to be careful.

    Going to be a long few weeks.

    • Robert Guyton 3.1
      22 September 2020 at 7:47 am

      Show me the money?

      Jacinda has 4 billion quips to choose from if challenged.

      I think Judith will be quite reluctant to talk about money.

  4. Dennis Frank 4
    22 September 2020 at 7:57 am

    Solidarity amongst splitters? Paradox – but at least they were having a go at it: https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/22-09-2020/what-the-conspiracy-theorist-parties-believe-and-why-it-matters/

    Debate moderator Mark Thompson also had an unusual role, in that he was also highlighted consensus positions.

    The cool thing about editors becoming irrelevant is that journos can liberate themselves by being ungrammatical in public. So they do.

    I went along out of a desire to understand where these parties – the New Conservatives, Advance NZ, the Outdoors Party and the One Party – were coming from, not to grab the most outrageous or shocking soundbites.

    Alex Braae went to Nelson to encounter our political fringe, but he's also a zealot in his disregard of journalistic convention. Outrage & shock sells, so the funding stream of the media pays his wage, eh? Biting the hand that feeds him is brave.

    Each party on stage was forged out of a sense of betrayal.

    Like the New Labour Party and NZ First, he failed to add. Too young to connect those dots, unfortunately, as it would strengthen his thesis if he did.

    At a candidate meeting in Martinborough last week, MP Kieran McAnulty increasingly directed his barbs against the Advance NZ candidate and associated hecklers in the crowd, rather than against his actual rivals for the seat from National and NZ First.

    Near the end, he earned the biggest cheer of the night from everyone else by thundering that the government’s Covid-19 response was built on “listening to the experts, not reading conspiracy theories on Facebook”.

    Sheeple everwhere will be thrilled! Obedience good, rebellion bad. A future Labour leader, who knows which button to push.

    Outdoors Party co-leader Sue Grey… is a lawyer, and is an intelligent enough person to have won legal battles against highly resourced opponents.

    But intelligence tends to become relative to context in which it gets used, eh? So when the public divides into those captivated by the official narrative and those into the meta-narrative, who's really clever is an opaque question. So here's the bottom line:

    everyone who is considered to be media literate has an instinctive understanding that they’re being lied to in some shape or form all the time, and continues broadly trusting those sources.

    We use both/and logic during media consumption. We trust media to give us something currently relevant worth considering, while knowing it's as likely as not to be a lie.

    • Gabby 4.1
      22 September 2020 at 10:34 am

      So, there was a meeting, and the report had a grammatical error.

      • Dennis Frank 4.1.1
        22 September 2020 at 10:51 am

        You forgot to mention that the sun rose this morning. Political commentary looks better to readers if elementary facts get factored into the big picture.

  5. ScottGN 5
    22 September 2020 at 8:02 am

    It was good to hear the PM on Morning Report this morning insist that a future 3rd harbour crossing in Auckland absolutely had to have a rail component. In fact she refused to confirm if further traffic lanes were in the mix at all. Let’s just hope it’s a Labour led government that gets the job of planning this rather than National cos we know how that would work out.

  6. tc 6
    22 September 2020 at 8:10 am

    Collins fronting the National ad I saw last night had a very deja vu quality to it.

    I thought I started seeing Muldoon's smirk one side of the mouth at times as the similarities struck a chord. Not a pleasant old tune that one btw.

    • greywarshark 6.1
      22 September 2020 at 11:50 am

      About Muldoon expression, I'd noticed that too.

      • Dennis Frank 6.1.1
        22 September 2020 at 2:52 pm

        Ah, so she's channelling Muldoon, that explains it. The threatening part of his style is coming through rather wimpish, though, eh? Perhaps up there on cloud nine he's been well & truly lectured at by do-gooder angels explaining that good vibes work better than bad on the earthly plane (as in heaven).

        Since he likely rolled his eyes at them persistently for the first few years, they would have had to shift gear up to indoctrination level 2. Reincarnational karma would have come as quite a shock to the old turk. Long enough mulling it over, now to try being nice, through that nice young(ish) pretend Nat leader…

  7. ScottGN 7
    22 September 2020 at 8:16 am

    Poor old Corin on Morning Report just now. He’s vox popping some punters from around the country about the change to level 1 and desperately trying to generate some anger and conflict and drama out of them but they’re all sweet as!

  8. Dennis Frank 8
    22 September 2020 at 8:42 am

    Subtle, nuanced solidarity on the airwaves:

    Hosking: "No you are being too linear. It's not a matter of a perfect model or a non-perfect model, it's about nuance and subtlety."

    Ardern: "Mike, if you're saying you're now a person of nuance and subtlety, bless.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12366679

    • greywarshark 8.1
      22 September 2020 at 11:54 am

      Oh thanks for that clip DF it has made my month. Holding on for this coming few weeks till the election is over is trying. I hope that the Auckland evangelicals get toads raining down on them from the high one above.

    • Wensleydale 8.2
      22 September 2020 at 1:54 pm

      Someone get poor Michael some asbestos underpants. He just got burned. I don't know how she endures his endless needling and pedantry. The desperation to get a hit on her is almost palpable. He's a miserable excuse for a human being.

  9. Reality 9
    22 September 2020 at 8:57 am

    What a brilliant response by Jacinda to Mike Hosking. Responds to him without being nasty, snide and sarcastic like someone who can't help herself being nasty, snide or sarcastic. And when that person tries to be nice it always is sooooo insincere.

  10. Dennis Frank 10
    22 September 2020 at 9:03 am

    Waikato has been a hotbed of racism since the colonial govt conquered the region. Nowadays it's being led by the ruling council of the university: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12366140

    Primary evidence of the residual colonialist mind-set is retention of Hamilton as the name of the region's capital city, to honour the 19th-century British aristocrat. Quite why the citizens of the city believe such perpetual honouring is a good idea isn't being explained to sceptics in the 21st century. Progress might happen. Keep head in sand.

    Local peasants entertain themselves by aping the behaviour of an ancient European tribe; the Vandals. https://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/300112102/election-vandalism-rife-in-hamilton-with-tyres-and-signs-sliced

    Vandalism is culturally interesting in that it isn't a belief system – unlike other isms – but a behavioural tradition. Local yokels preserving local culture. Come the superhighway, invasion by Aucks will threaten their peace of mind though. How to form a united front against multiculturalism? That's a question unable to enter their heads, due to lack of brain. Dinosaurs prior to comet-strike, the Hamiltonians.

    • In Vino 10.1
      22 September 2020 at 11:28 am

      Aristocrat? More like upper Middle Class, I would hazard.

      • greywarshark 10.1.1
        22 September 2020 at 11:57 am

        Please leave that alone DF. It is a hot kumara, and not appropriate to stir the pot and stew about it before the election hangi.

        And just to add before I sign off, local iwi have an interest in the uni. So something to look at after the election please.

    • Stuart Munro 10.2
      22 September 2020 at 11:33 am

      Hamilton? Thought it was called The Tron.

    • Gabby 10.3
      22 September 2020 at 5:22 pm

      The university council are slashing tyres? The rotters.

  11. francesca 11
    22 September 2020 at 9:04 am

    An interesting overview of Nordstream 2 and its geopolitical struggles(for those who are interested)

    Written by a

    Policy Analyst at The Russian Public Affairs Committee (Ru-PAC). His work is focused on Russo-American relations, the Eurasian space and with a long-term goal of building better relations between Russia and his country of birth, Sweden

    https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2020/09/19/dont-expect-sanctions-to-stop-nord-stream-ii/

    And regarding Amnesty International and the Assange trial it's heartening to see Amnesty come to the party after a very long silence. They are actively being excluded from the hearings, even remote access has been revoked

    They're beginning to realise the consequences of their original limp response, and they may, along with many others just now jumping in , be too late

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/09/why-are-amnesty-international-monitors-not-able-to-observe-the-assange-hearing/

  12. Sabine 12
    22 September 2020 at 11:33 am

    well it was good for the goose so why should it not be good for the gander, and besides we need to 'teach these people in emergency housing the value of paying rent' or some other bullshit like that.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300113282/plan-to-charge-for-emergency-housing-back-on

    The Government may have paid $6000 a fortnight to house them in a private rental at one stage – part of a scheme to pay landlords motel-level room rates to put families in houses rather than motels.

    When the scheme ended abruptly they had to shift all of their belongings overnight into a friend's garage and eventually ended up in a Mangere motel – where they live today.

    Now the Labour-led government is pushing ahead with a plan to charge families like hers 25 per cent of their income for staying in these emergency motels.

    The change was announced in February, set to come into place in March, but was delayed due to Covid-19.

    Now it will come into effect on October 19 – two days after the election.

    The Government argues it is a question of fairness along with a much-needed incentive to get people out of emergency housing and into private, transitional or social housing.

    Mangere East Family Services social worker Alastair Russell said it's not a question of incentives. The reason people aren't moving out of emergency housing is because the whole system is "stuck".

    The backlog of people waiting for social housing spaces has meant people stay in transitional housing longer.

    The backlog of people in transitional housing has meant people can't move out of emergency accommodation.

    yeah, sure keep charging these homeless families 25% of their wage for 'emergency accomodation', surely this will teach them the value of paying for a rental that they can't find even if they have full time jobs working for hte council.

    Kinder, gentler, bullshit.

    • The Al1en 12.1
      22 September 2020 at 11:42 am

      What percentage of a wage would be paid in a state house?

      • Draco T Bastard 12.1.1
        22 September 2020 at 12:17 pm

        IIRC, its 25% of income.

      • Sabine 12.1.2
        22 September 2020 at 6:03 pm

        1. Do i have an issue with people paying for housing? No, i don't.

        1. Renting a state house from housing corp is a secure rental agreement with the Housing Corp and i am sure that particular family and others would be more then happy to pay the regular rents on such a property. Too bad, that we sold them under the last govenrment and under the current one we can't build them fast enough. So they are not renting a State House, but nice try of deflection.

        3.why does emergency housing in shoddy motels/flats cost 3000NZD per week?

        1. Is the government that useless at negotiating a fair price, and is this really the best they could do with the tools they have and all the intelligent and highly educated people working high paying jobs in government. Cause if it is, then they need to be hiring better staff, the current one seems useless.
        2. why does the government not simply pay the standard rental prices for motels/shoddy housing in the first place, see above, useless at negotiating?

        6. do i have an issue with people spending 25% of their wages/welfare income on 3000NZD per week for a property that Winz has not even inspected and that according to various articles now are often times not safe, not sanitary, over crowded, and sometimes even illegal? A property that is EMERGENCY or TRANSITIONAL housing, and not a stable secure rental?

        Yes, yes i do.

        And i don't care if this shit comes from National or Labour.

        I hope that answers any question you may have.

        • The Al1en 12.1.2.1
          22 September 2020 at 8:10 pm

          Too much cacao tasting today? lol

          The question of the social problems in not having enough affordable homes for people to buy or rent, or how the number of state houses should be much higher are a given for most left voters and all would like to see what we have now reversed.

          I don't get your bitterness in charging someone 25% of $635 and $980pw after tax to stay in a motel, which clearly may not be ideal, but is much better than market rate rentals or living in a car or under a bridge.

          Those people would still have 75% of their wage and a roof over their heads until circumstances change with better housing outcomes.

          I completely refute the idea that's somehow "bullshit"

          Rooms in big houses is different and I doubt it’s the best policy if guarantees of safety and quality can’t be given.

    • Ad 12.2
      22 September 2020 at 12:22 pm

      Sabine, you get more ammunition about this here:

      https://www.cpag.org.nz/

      Also this big one launched five days ago, going into most social welfare areas you can think of:

      https://www.salvationarmy.org.nz/research-policy/social-policy-parliamentary-unit/latest-report

      • Sabine 12.2.1
        22 September 2020 at 6:05 pm

        Sadly the Sally Army is not government, and the current government will ignore the findings of the Sally Army (to which i have linked a few days ago btw), as they did with their own fact finding group.

        This government gives no more a fuck about the poor then did the last ones.

  13. greywarshark 13
    22 September 2020 at 12:16 pm

    I thought Prof Nick Wilson had good point about saying that we would do better to have a 1.5 lockdown level with masks on public transport and reductions in numbers at high contact settings, bars and clubs, gyms. It's my preference. We have a lot to lose, and want to open up as much as poss and with as much as poss safety.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018765039/covid-19-public-health-expert-not-happy-with-alert-level-1

  14. Peter 14
    22 September 2020 at 12:17 pm

    Brownlee's on talking about privatising isolation etc, with all the usual bullshit 'probable' 'they'll have to etc.' Then the "all we're saying is …"

    And all the crap about getting on the plane virus free.

    I stuffed up yesterday entering my name as 'failed UE twice.' That was a typo directed at Gerry. That was him. I presume he got School C to get to 6th form. I think he has regressed.

    • Draco T Bastard 14.1
      22 September 2020 at 12:19 pm

      Sounds like Gerry's trying to spin the line that the private sector always does it better.

      He'll have a hard time of it though because, after four decades of that BS, we now know that the private sector does it worse and costs more.

      • mac1 14.1.1
        22 September 2020 at 1:27 pm

        And when they've got it wrong, and the virus escapes from poorly run, poorly managed, short-funded private isolation who gets to put it right?

        And Brownlee talks about an agency to supervise the privateers. Who pays for that?

        The answer to both questions- it sure ain't private enterprise.

      • woodart 14.1.2
        22 September 2020 at 1:59 pm

        yes, we have melbournes experience to show us how good private enterprise is. wonder if jerry has factored insurance into cost of private phuckups? after his triumph in chch, he should be well aware or how insurance can bite arses.

    • greywarshark 14.2
      22 September 2020 at 12:21 pm

      Peter
      I think we all have, or alternatively, most of us have not progressed past whatever level of formal learning we had early in life. We need more than vocational training and silo studies of one aspect of life to study in depth.

    • gsays 14.3
      22 September 2020 at 12:36 pm

      In regards Brownlee's new department: it could be called CERA,

      Covid

      Entry

      Repatriation

      Authority.

      What could go wrong?

  16. greywarshark 16
    22 September 2020 at 12:24 pm

    Syrian man freed from detention in Oz. Landmark ruling. Sounds interesting – I haven't read yet but include this here for us all to know about.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018765026/ruling-sets-detainee-free-and-opens-door-for-others-in-limbo

  18. Siobhan 18
    22 September 2020 at 12:28 pm

    Well, how very very odd.."The Guardian" are today, an actual part of the Assange trial…..yet they have decided to not cover the story (as yet)..thats dedication..then again..no news sources have actually applied to have their journalists in Court..any thoughts out there on when 'No News' becomes 'Fake News'…

    so we shall have to go with the Daily Mail link ..again…

    "The US government is wrong to charge WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange with publishing unredacted classified documents because they had already appeared online, a London court has heard.

    Computer scientist Professor Christian Grothoff said the organisation was not the first to make public 251,000 diplomatic cables when they appeared on its website on September 2, 2011."

    Now I know many of you are "So Over" Assange, but, well, its a big trial, and THE GUARDIAN ARE IN IT..so…

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8756265/Julian-Assange-NOT-charged-WikiLeaks-files-available-online.html

    https://shadowproof.com/2020/09/21/guide-to-journalists-assange-trial-upset-by-media-blackout/

  19. greywarshark 19
    22 September 2020 at 12:34 pm

    Climate change continues – can we manage to think of multiple problematic and destructive things at the same time??

    https://www.euractiv.com/section/climate-environment/news/worlds-richest-1-cause-double-co2-emissions-of-poorest-half-says-oxfam/

    The wealthiest 1% of the world’s population were responsible for the emission of more than twice as much carbon dioxide as the poorer half of the world from 1990 to 2015, according to new research. EURACTIV’s media partner, The Guardian, reports.

    Carbon dioxide emissions rose by 60% over the 25-year period, but the increase in emissions from the richest 1% was three times greater than the increase in emissions from the poorest half.

    The report, compiled by Oxfam and the Stockholm Environment Institute, warned that rampant overconsumption and the rich world’s addiction to high-carbon transport are exhausting the world’s “carbon budget”.

    Perhaps we could support this news media amalgamation and hear more about the rest of the world that is outside the range of the voice of Hosking et Al.

  20. greywarshark 20
    22 September 2020 at 1:06 pm

    Anyone who finds wikipedia a useful and mostly factual source! They need an injection of money. Amazingly, they say, 98% of people who use them don't give them anything. WTF. This is a chance to join a group almost as elite as the 1% Mr Creosotes. This group is of the virtuous goodies who get behind people-power-with-integrity – the 2%.

    https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:LandingPage&country=NZ&uselang/

  21. UncookedSelachimorpha 21
    22 September 2020 at 1:37 pm

    Labour moves fast to drive wages down:

    Visa changes, border exemptions for specialised workers

    I see some of the workers are so specialised they will be filling " labour shortages in horticulture and wine growing. "

    • greywarshark 21.1
      22 September 2020 at 1:53 pm

      NZ helping poor people everywhere?

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 21.1.1
        22 September 2020 at 2:03 pm

        A fair point, although I doubt that is the intention. Expanding the pool of people to exploit more likely.

        It is probably better if there are at least pockets of working people being paid better around the world, rather than the entire world being driven down to a low level with only the rich masters doing well anywhere.

    • Adrian 21.2
      22 September 2020 at 2:16 pm

      I wouldn't call 1000 – 1500 bucks a week "driving wages down ". Most wages in agriculture in NZ are well in excess of the same in Australia. Grape harvester drivers 10 to 15 dollars more per hour, winery workers above living wage and above Oz, ask any young traveller about the comparison.

      • Stuart Munro 21.2.1
        22 September 2020 at 7:12 pm

        If those are really the wages, government should be moving heaven and earth to make sure that those jobs are going to New Zealanders, not migrants.

      • KJT 21.2.2
        22 September 2020 at 7:55 pm

        So. The family member working in horticulture on 50c above minimum wage, and unpaid every time it rains, or they run out of work, while being on call 24/7, is an an exception.

        I don't think so.

  22. Byd0nz 22
    22 September 2020 at 2:45 pm 
          Debate   stakes.</p>

    The gates are open its an even jump,
    Rude Jude on the outside Smiley J the inner,
    The debate is on Campbell holds the whip,
    Things now start to simmer.

    Rude Jude tried to trip up Smiley J,
    But Smiley J had none of that,
    The calmness of Rude Jude is fading,
    And out-pours her lines of crap.

    Campbell tries to intervene in vain,
    Smiley J streaks clear for home,
    Rude Jude way back in the trail,
    Her mouth now full of foam.

    The punters of colour blue,
    Rip their tickets up and groan,
    The clear concise goals of Smiley J,
    Have given her the throne.

    • greywarshark 22.1
      22 September 2020 at 4:51 pm

      Hope we can celebrate that win on October 17th? Get out all the silver cups that you won back then and fill them with champagne that your horse Came Home. /humour

  23. Andre 23
    22 September 2020 at 3:18 pm

    Here's the campaign ad Judthulhu really needs to copy. Yes, it really is a pro-Kelly Loeffler ad running in Georgia.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/21/politics/kelly-loeffler-ad-attila-the-hun/index.html

    • greywarshark 23.1
      22 September 2020 at 4:49 pm

      Why do women want long hair so much? Why is the fashion so long-lasting? It must be a time user keeping it in good order. This woman's hair would look nice on a palomino pony.

      • Patricia 2 23.1.1
        22 September 2020 at 8:00 pm

        Grey – maybe it is a macho male leader thing ? John Key was fascinated by long hair (especially pony tails) on females of all ages.

  24. greywarshark 24
    22 September 2020 at 4:47 pm

    This might help landlords whose tenants will not air the house, open some windows etc to reduce humidity and the mould it brings.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/2018764722/how-better-building-design-can-fight-the-spread-of-covid-19

  25. Ric Stacey 25
    22 September 2020 at 4:52 pm

    I cannot get the donate page to open. I click on the button and the address appears in the new window and the page stays blank. I'm using Win 7 and it happens in Firefox (latest version)and also in Chrome(at least a recent version) I need the bank account no.

    • greywarshark 25.1
      22 September 2020 at 6:16 pm

      Will someone help this person. He wants to donate and is having trouble. This is a time when someone should definitely come to the aid of the party – a good cause!

      • Heather Grimwood 25.1.1
        22 September 2020 at 8:49 pm

        to Rick at 25 and greywarshark at 25.1 :

        email labour.org.nz and have bankcard beside you!…the form appears to fill in .
        Yours in the cause and pleased to help.

    • Incognito 25.2
      22 September 2020 at 6:21 pm

      Which donate page?

    • Heather Grimwood 25.3
      22 September 2020 at 9:06 pm

      To Ric Stacey at 25 :
      i copied your name wrongly in my reply to greywarshark, ( busy day).
      To donate to Labour, email labour.org.nz and the donation sheet will appear.
      You only need your bankcard beside you. The procedure is easy. Yours in the cause.

  27. PsyclingLeft.Always 27
    22 September 2020 at 5:16 pm

    New Zealand State "care" : (

    "The Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care has resumed its public hearings in Auckland on Monday focusing on evidence from survivors of abuse who have sought redress for what happened to them."

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/426656/abuse-in-state-care-inquiry-survivor-calls-for-independent-claims-process

    Electric shock torture…: (

    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/abuse-care-ect-used-treat-womans-sexuality

    Suffer the little Children…: (

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/424173/marylands-school-abuse-inquiry-it-s-about-time

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/347975/abuse-victim-backs-inquiry-including-religious-institutions

    Wha?…this is absolutely gut wrenching (and no BS about a different time/move on !!)…

  28. Chris T 28
    22 September 2020 at 7:10 pm

    Don't suppose anyone has a link to the debate online.

    The TVNZ stream is stuck in the loading cycle of death

  29. observer 29
    22 September 2020 at 7:14 pm

    John Campbell has a severe case of the waffles. Stop talking. And for God's sake stop giving them a cuddle.

  30. Anker 30
    22 September 2020 at 8:25 pm

    Thought tvone gave Collins the advantage. Often camera on Collins when Ardern was talking. I am sure he allowed Collins more time. Wtf

    • Chris T 30.1
      22 September 2020 at 9:31 pm

      When she was talking about Kiwibuild and the CGT?

      Ardern was hardly going to interrupt to talk about that mess.

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