Open mike 23/02/2011

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, February 23rd, 2011 - 180 comments
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180 comments on “Open mike 23/02/2011 ”

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  1. HC 1
    23 February 2011 at 1:41 am

    My sympathy goes out to all the affected people in Christchurch and the surrounding regions. This is a real “shocker”, and I could hardly believe the news, when I heard the first reports about this after 1 pm yesterday. It is the last thing Christchurch can afford now. I trust in the good spirit and honest collective support that many will uphold to see their way through this immense challenge.

    Apart from this I am very, very concerned about the political consequences that this will at least indirectly have. It gives the PM, his ministers and mayor Parker yet another stage to present themselves to the public as the “great leaders” and “caring administrators”.

    Like the earthquake and the engaged activities of Mayor Parker did last year decide the mayoral competition in the local body elections, I now fear that this very event in this election year will possibly assist John Key and his party to win the elections in November and continue with the policies that they have already brought in and are planning to bring in.

    Forgive me to raise this, but I am most concerned and dread the thought of this happening.

    • Pete 1.1
      23 February 2011 at 6:46 am

      Fuck the political consequences. There are far far more important consequences of this for many people in New Zealand, friends, family, workmates. Christchurch and it’s people deserve much more than petty proffering of personal political preferences – we should be looking at what we can do together to get through this. Fuck the politics for now at least.

      • Pascal's bookie 1.1.1
        23 February 2011 at 7:06 am

        This.

      • Lanthanide 1.1.2
        23 February 2011 at 7:26 am

        As my boyfriend said yesterday, focussing on The Urgent should not distract from The Important – that’s how Parker got elected in the first place.

      • Steve 1.1.3
        23 February 2011 at 5:03 pm

        Sorry Pete but MickeySavage is right, there are political consequences and like it or not that\’s how Parker and especially Key are playing it. however if they play it out like the last 6 months of inaction then maybe they will rethink their photo ops and news bites.

    • mickysavage 1.2
      23 February 2011 at 8:08 am

      HC

      Democracy and politics are important and you are right to worry about the consequences.

      • The Baron 1.2.1
        23 February 2011 at 8:50 am

        This comment illustrates exactly why I think you’re a cock. Those things are simply not relevant right now.
        I know that you guys hate the fact that Parker and key aren’t yOur favorite flavor – but they have a job to do to provide people with the info they need about the local and national response.
        If all you can think about is the political consequences of all this “airtime” then you’re a heartless idiot.

        • pollywog 1.2.1.1
          23 February 2011 at 8:55 am

          I’m appreciating Bob Parker, as a former TV hack’s ability, to elucidate and expound on the problems besetting Christchurch and it’s people and offering the appropriate advice.

          He’s definitely in his element with a camera in his face. In this instance, i think that’s a good thing.

        • Lanthanide 1.2.1.2
          23 February 2011 at 8:59 am

          I don’t think discussing the issue on the internet is somehow harming anyone.

        • Colonial Viper 1.2.1.3
          23 February 2011 at 9:02 am

          Anyone ever notice how its the Right Wingers always get tied up in Righteous indignation around these events, but in their minds throwing people out of their homes in normal times is quite OK, and actually an economically efficient way to provide “incentives”?

          • mcflock 1.2.1.3.1
            23 February 2011 at 11:52 am

            Personally I love the fact that The Baron thinks that we should all join together and treat each other with respect, reaching beyond petty personal and political issues in this time of national need. And that anyone who disagrees with him in the slightest is “a cock”.

        • Draco T Bastard 1.2.1.4
          23 February 2011 at 1:12 pm

          The politics is very relevant right now because they happen to be important at all times and John Key and Bob Parker is using this disaster as a photo op. Even more disturbing is that the MSM is encouraging them to do so.

          • The Baron 1.2.1.4.1
            23 February 2011 at 3:08 pm

            You realise that your opinions are not automatically facts, right Draco? Or do you have an even larger ego than I realised?

    • pseudopanax 1.3
      23 February 2011 at 10:20 am

      So September was $3bn in damages, and that was nothing compared to this quake. Anyone else get the feeling that we can’t actually afford this?
      Also the RWC implications mentioned earlier (Lanthanide iirc) are fairly serious too. If the games are moved away from Chch (and realistically, how could they not be?) then that’s a lot of economic stimulus they’ll be missing out on.

    • pseudopanax 1.4
      23 February 2011 at 10:24 am

      So September was $3bn in damages, and that was nothing compared to this quake. Anyone else get the feeling that we can’t actually afford this?
      Also the RWC implications mentioned (by Lanthanide iirc) are fairly serious too. If the games are moved away from Chch (and realistically, how could they not be?) then that’s a lot of economic stimulus they’ll be missing out on.

  2. Remmurg 2
    23 February 2011 at 4:29 am

    HC, your comment didnt offend me a bit, it is quite a concern that those kinds of power freaks DO use this to their advantages, media manipulation, public relations goes in high gear which can mean that in the long run (that is if they get re-elected) they will be hurting us more too in terms of that ‘economic divide’ so they wish to bring and i freaken hope Ken Ring is wrong about March 20.

    • Deadly_NZ 2.1
      23 February 2011 at 8:49 am

      Yeah watch for the Photo op’s start up now and the meaningless press conferences just repeating what someone else has said. And as to distracting the rest of the country i would not put it past the planners to be already using this to slip through a lot of not so nice policies with little or no fanfare. But it also should have put paid to the secret TPP meetings.

      • pollywog 2.1.1
        23 February 2011 at 11:37 am

        Am just now watching him spew forth meaningless platitudes and making empty promises from a pre prepared speech. Naturally he’s delivering it with all the conviction of a privileged white boy at a private school assembly speaking on the plight of those less fortunate .

        For all that he’s imploring us to be strong and resolute for the Churtown massive, and for them to be there for each other, it just doesn’t seem for our benefit, but rather for the choice soundbites it will generate for the foreign media.

        From there he’s gonna board a plan, head down to Christ city, buzz Lyttleton, stop off for a coffee and a chat with Sideshow, then hoon it back to Welli in time for din dins with bing bing…what a fucking trooper !!!

        He reckons he also wants to visit suffering ChCh people at welfare stations and hospitals. So I expect nothing less now than for Key to personally carry a poor wee Maori girl with a broken arm across the tarmac to his private plane and transport her to a safe and happy place…

        …cos that’s how he roles !

        • Vicky32 2.1.1.1
          23 February 2011 at 5:54 pm

          I was listening to him this morning on the radio, and wondering if he uses a speech writer? As far as I know, no other politician in NZ has. He sounded robotic.
          To my shame my son has become so RW that he chided me by text for agreeing with him that Blinglish sounded odd, and said Baronish things about keeping politics out of it. 🙁
          Deb

          • Marty G 2.1.1.1.1
            23 February 2011 at 7:10 pm

            he uses speeches written by others, kevin talyor, at his post cabinet press conference quite often. I don’t have a problem with that but I wish he would get to know his speeches before delivering them and try to emote correctly rather than sounding like a ten year old in a play. Of course, it doesn’t actually matter in the real world, just like key visiting chch doesn’t alter the recovery effort one jot. But it would nice and good leadership. As it is he may as well hand over the speech to the media without reading it aloud because it’s not really him talking.

          • Dismal Soyanz 2.1.1.1.2
            23 February 2011 at 7:39 pm

            Speech writers are not that unusual, Deb. One of my friends actually used to write speeches for Helen Clark.

        • M 2.1.1.2
          24 February 2011 at 1:11 am

          If he has a speeech writer s/he should be sacked. The speech was way too long and delivered in his usual bewildered way.

  3. Lanthanide 3
    23 February 2011 at 7:23 am

    Coverage on National Radio has been much more coherent than that on the TV this morning.

    TV reporters are confused about things (32 vs 65 deaths, 38 bodies in temporary police morgue etc) that National Radio had clarified back at 5:30am.

    Also this is likely to push us into recession.

    Serious contingency measures for Rugby World Cup should be under consideration, moving games to Wellington or Dunedin. Another large quake 2 months out would be enough to de-rail it.

    • IrishBill 3.1
      23 February 2011 at 7:29 am

      65 is the figure the PM made up. I know that there’s more important stuff to worry about today (and I’m lucky in that I know my family down there is okay) but it irks me that Key would just go on the telly and make numbers up.

      • Lanthanide 3.1.1
        23 February 2011 at 7:32 am

        No, Key did NOT make the number up, and that’s exactly what I mean about the TV reporters confusing things.

        Key used the “reported bodies” number which was 65. The 32 (now 38) confirmed dead are those bodies that have been formally identified by police and their next of kin notified.

        The official toll will eventually encompass those 65 that Key initially spoke of – the bodies aren’t going to disappear.

      • Marty G 3.1.2
        23 February 2011 at 7:33 am

        to be fair, the official death toll of 38 is only identified bodies, I would hope he was clear that there are 65 bodies including unidentified when he gave that number.

        • Lanthanide 3.1.2.1
          23 February 2011 at 7:40 am

          Interview with a police commissioner earlier on National Radio (I didn’t really sleep much) said there were “bodies in the streets” and they just left them where they were – they’re focussing on rescuing people.

          On TV Goff said he saw the 2 busses that were crushed, and his police escort said that the bodies were still on board. Another person said they were spray-painting cars to make them as being ‘cleared’, but again leaving the bodies where they were.

          With these revelations, the death toll is looking more likely to be in the 200+ range.

          A next-door neighbour of my parents was in her car in the central city, and her car was crushed. The guy in the car behind her was killed. Her partner was in a building and stayed inside, he saw other people running outside who got crushed by buildings.

          • Carol 3.1.2.1.1
            23 February 2011 at 7:48 am

            Thanks people for outlining the most important ChCh info. I looked at Stuff’s home page this morning and there’s so much on the quake I don’t know where to start for the most significant reports.

            Meanwhile there’s other important stuff to catch up on as well – watching Al Jazeera on the dire situation in Libya.

            And I see RNZ news on their website has an item on Paula Bennett’s latest press release.

      • Pete 3.1.3
        23 February 2011 at 7:43 am

        Quibling over numbers of casualties at this stage is pathetic. Goff has just stated the obvious on TV, the numbers could get quite a bit higher (he has previously mentioned numbers in the hundreds as possible). Goff, Key etc talk to people who will know the unofficial realities, and hear of fears and concerns. Dissing them for their involvement is nonsensical.

        I’m sure both Goff and Key will not be giving a stuff about political scripts and postures at the moment, they will be doing what they can with what they see in front of them. It can be a time when we see politicians as they really are instead of trying to fit a mould, and I’m sure they will work together where necessary without caring about political leanings.

        • Lanthanide 3.1.3.1
          23 February 2011 at 7:48 am

          I’m glad that Key left CHCH very quickly after he arrived (only 1 photo op), but again he shouldn’t have even come.

          • Dilbert 3.1.3.1.1
            23 February 2011 at 8:40 am

            Unfortunately Lanthanide at times like these the Prime Minister (who ever they are) are stuck is in a no win situation with these sort of events, just remember the out cry when Helen Clark remained on leave during the boxing day tsunami.

            Personally I think John Key has acted appropriately but wonder if Goff has show similar restraint by making and appearance and departing Christchurch?

            • Lanthanide 3.1.3.1.1.1
              23 February 2011 at 8:49 am

              Goff was already in CHCH, he didn’t make a special disaster tourism trip – if he had been in Wellington then I would definitely say he should’ve stayed there too. Goff also isn’t the PM – he doesn’t need to be co-ordinating the national response or any of that.

              Key’s little trip down the CHCH would have tied up a lot of people’s time to make sure he was safe and escorted, as well as having a special flight arranged to land in the airport. What is Key really going to learn from being in CHCH that he can’t learn from media reports? He already saw what the September quake was like – this is just more of the same but worse. I’d have no problem with him coming down 3-4 days later, but coming into the thick of the rescue operation doesn’t actually achieve anything constructive. He would have been better off saying “I am not going to CHCH as it’ll put unnecessary stress on the situation, instead I’m going to stay in Wellington and organise the government’s response to the disaster”.

              • Colonial Viper …
                23 February 2011 at 8:52 am

                Yeah limited Christchurch airport runway time on the 2 runways left operational…made available for emergency flights…AND the Prime Minister. How helpful.

        • lprent 3.1.3.2
          23 February 2011 at 8:48 am

          Pretty much. Besides the general creed of the emergency services is that in the first few days politicians are useful talking heads for getting information out to locals

          • Draco T Bastard 3.1.3.2.1
            23 February 2011 at 1:23 pm

            The local politicians can fill that role – we don’t need any making a special trip down there.

        • ianmac 3.1.3.3
          23 February 2011 at 9:24 am

          Pete:”I’m sure both Goff and Key will not be giving a stuff about political scripts and postures at the moment, they will be doing what they can with what they see in front of them.”

          You are naive or ummm…… Every moment has a political aspect which will certainly be discussed by strategists.

          • Pete 3.1.3.3.1
            23 February 2011 at 10:33 am

            In a situation like that? I’d be very surprised if Phil Goff gave a toss about strategists yesterday when he found himself in a disaster zone.
            a) he would have had as much difficulty communicating as anyone
            b) he seems like a decent human being who would simply react to the terrible situation

      • Arbovit 3.1.4
        23 February 2011 at 7:52 am

        Nonsense IB. Phil Goff told reporters last night that he feared 2-300 had died. That led the Herald this morning. If you want to talk about irresponsible number-crunching and disaster tourism, blame Phil.

        Whatever the toll it will be far too high. Let’s not play politics over this just yet.

        • felix 3.1.4.1
          23 February 2011 at 8:32 am

          If you want to talk about irresponsible number-crunching and disaster tourism, blame Phil.

          Uh huh.

          Let’s not play politics over this just yet.

          Righto.

          • Tigger 3.1.4.1.1
            23 February 2011 at 9:46 am

            Key’s visit was utterly cynical. Who the fuck jets in and out of a disaster zone immediately after the disaster has hit and before the danger has passed? It is illogical for a host of reasons.

        • lprent 3.1.4.2
          23 February 2011 at 8:39 am

          From the description of the seismic waves I think that we will be lucky to only have 200 dead. At present emergency services are concentrating on rescuing people who are alive. They are not even counting the dead. We might get some substantive numbers tomorrow after they get the known alive out.

          Reality is obviously something you find difficult to cope with. The politicians cannot be comfortable for you. They are pretty much stating what the emergency services are telling them.

          • Colonial Viper 3.1.4.2.1
            23 February 2011 at 8:57 am

            Have to agree. Christchurch will have to count its luck stars again – relatively speaking – if the final death toll falls between just 100-200. We forget that in many cities of this size in the world, this exact earthquake would have caused thousands of deaths within minutes.

            For the bigger picture, having the public sector and the private sector work together to implement tough regulations enforcing high standards of safety and redundancy simply works. Yes it adds costs, yes it takes more time than ‘anything flies’, yes it adds a certain amount of over-engineering, but done right it builds in resilience for extraordinary circumstances where you would not want anything else.

          • Arbovit 3.1.4.2.2
            23 February 2011 at 9:18 am

            I agree with you lprent. If Keys number of 65 irks irishbill then phil goff’s number of 300 should irk him five times as much.

            • Colonial Viper 3.1.4.2.2.1
              23 February 2011 at 9:27 am

              Remember that Key said his number as a fact. Goff said his number as a fear

              I would say both have some basis however. Its also no good pretending that the official death toll of 38 is not going to triple or quadruple in the next couple of days. it will.

              • Arbovit …
                23 February 2011 at 9:46 am

                Look let’s not quibble. There are a lot of figures. 32 identified by police. 38 in the mortuary. 65 mentioned by Key, which may include bodies not yet in the mortuary (with reports a lot of bodies left in cars while rescue workers prioritise rescuing the living). And then Goff’s figure of “maybe 300”.

                It’s pointless and tasteless to speculate how many may have died. And quite tasteless. We don’t know yet. We know whatever the number is it will be too many with a lot of heartbreak for their families and friends. People might want to know how many it’s going to be, sure. But we just don’t know and it’s already past the point where people play body auction to speculate on the biggest number of fatalities.

                [lprent: Moderators set the behavior standards here. You don’t. Read the policy. Currently the discussion of the political aspects of the quake are confined to OpenMike and the posts are limited to relevant information. But OpenMike doesn’t have any particular restrictions. ]

                • Lanthanide …
                  23 February 2011 at 9:51 am

                  “It’s pointless and tasteless to speculate how many may have died. And quite tasteless. We don’t know yet.”

                  Except this is what the media keep asking. Sorry if you find it distasteful, but Goff was giving the likely estimate of what it may end up being. Key also gave the number that he had on hand at the time (I don’t believe he made it up).

                  I listened to the press conference at 5:30am from the civil defense coordinator in the bunker at the beehive. He said “32 confirmed dead” and there was a flurry of followup questions by the media, probably about 6-7 in total lasting for about 2 minutes, trying to reconcile the 65 number with the 32 number and why was it different, asking if they had any more information or estimates, asking how many were trapped, how many had been pulled out dead, how many were injured etc etc

                  • Arbovit …
                    23 February 2011 at 10:06 am

                    Understand Lanthanide. There are lots of figures floating about. I just don’t believe that John Key was “guesstimating”. I watched that 5:30 update from Hamilton too and thought he looked pretty good for somebody who had been up all night.

                    Hamilton’s figure was the number of people police identified (and maybe notified to families, so could may be named soon). Then he said 38 in the mortuary. I don’t believe for a moment that Key was making up the figure of 65, and we know there are bodies still in the street.

                    But only Goff has speculated on how many people might have died. Everybody else has restricted their numbers to actual bodies.

                    I remember when new york got hit in 2001 and people were talking about 10,000 dead. It was a media driven body auction that didn’t bear resemblance to fact. We don’t need that and Goff was reckless to speculate on final numbers. Politicians and authorities have a responsibility to stick to message: this is the number we know about, but grave fears it may rise.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      23 February 2011 at 10:14 am

                      Arbovit, lets not apply double standards here – you don’t believe Key made a number up yet you say Goff made a number up.

                      As I said, Key stated his number as a *fact* Goff stated his number as a *fear*, and its quite nice for you to say above not to be political about it so don’t.

                      From a purely practical standpoint, casualty forecasts are needed to assess if you have enough body bags, mortuary staff, coroners staff, caskets, etc on hand.

                      Do the numbers need to be broadcast? Well, that’s a judgement call but neither Key saying 65 as a *fact* or Goff saying 300 as a *fear* is to me out of the ball park.

                      Politicians and authorities have a responsibility to stick to message:

                      Then its your opinion as to what that message is and since (I presume) you don’t do PR for the pollies or the authorities don’t be too disappointed if they don’t follow your rules.

                    • Arbovit …
                      23 February 2011 at 10:20 am

                      Oh how stupid. So you’re saying mortuary staff rely on Phil Goff’s fears when they decide how many body bags to bring in?

                      It’s quite simple. Key was relying on reports he was receiving. Goff was making a number up. It’s only because you’re a tribal labour party hack that you’re defending it.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      23 February 2011 at 10:33 am

                      Key was relying on reports he was receiving. Goff was making a number up. It’s only because you’re a tribal labour party hack that you’re defending it.

                      Hey I’m going to follow your own suggestion of not playing politics over these numbers OK? I didn’t call you a “tribal party hack” or any other such thing so calm down and turn your political antennae off for a bit.

                    • pollywog …
                      23 February 2011 at 10:39 am

                      The number of bodies formally identified stands at 39 but that number is expected to soar today. Prime Minister John Key said the 65 death toll quoted yesterday “remains an accurate prediction”.

                      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-earthquake/4692170/Christchurch-quake-rescuers-prepare-for-worst

                      Key the fortune teller. Is there no limit to the abilities of our dear leader ?

                      MAYOR’S PLEA

                      “Stay at home. No schools are open. Don’t go to work.”

                      Can someone tell Key that, cos i hear he’s planning on dropping in on ChCh again today…

                      …unless he’s planning on flying in unaided, wearing his blue superman undies on the outside of his pants to single handedly rescue and restore ChCh. I reckon he’d be better of staying well the fuck away eh

                      let those who can, do, and let those who can’t piss off and shut the fuck up.

                    • Arbovit …
                      23 February 2011 at 11:21 am

                      If Helen Clark were still prime minister I’d expect her to go town too. No doubt the rwnjs would complain but that’s what the head of government is supposed to do, to show moral leadership and comfort to the thousands of victims of this disaster. You’re just playing politics pollywog. If the shoe was on the foot and helen clark were PM and the right wingers were attacking her you’d say they were playing politics too.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      23 February 2011 at 11:23 am

                      Still happily accusing others of playing politics mate? I thought you said not to do that.

                • pollywog …
                  23 February 2011 at 11:43 am

                  If Helen Clark were still prime minister BLAH BLAH BLAH…

                  Waste of time speculating on what Helen would have done. She hasn’t been PM for years. She doesn’t even rate a mention anymore.

                  I’m going off what Key has been doing with regards to his handling of Pike river and the first earthquake and how theres no need for him to go to ChCh at all.

                  If anyones “playing” politics like it’s a PR game, it’s Key.

              • Zorr …
                23 February 2011 at 10:11 am

                There is meant to be a number somewhere between 100-200 trapped/crushed in the PGG building ALONE. 300 is a very conservative estimate in my opinion. Only left Christchurch 5 weeks ago (job as well) specifically because of fears of this happening. And now all I can do is watch/listen to the media coverage… x_x

                • Colonial Viper …
                  23 February 2011 at 10:18 am

                  Building code for big buildings is going to have to be closely examined and uprated. Losing 3 people in a house is one thing. Losing 300 people in an office block something else entirely.

                  Zorr, it sucks that your judgement call to move was justified.

                  • Zorr …
                    23 February 2011 at 10:33 am

                    Went through several of the larger aftershocks in my office building – very unnerving. Been told by my workmates there that all the windows broke and the aircon water tank broke (again) and that the place I regularly got my lunch from collapsed and people were getting stretchered out. Scary stuff.

                    Got offered the chance by family to move with assistance and no rent at this end for looking after a property. Opportunity was too good to not take considering I wanted to get away. If I hadn’t been offered it I would be in the middle of the mess in Christchurch right now.

                    I don’t necessarily think that the building code needs to be revised or anything. Those buildings have suffered continual damage over the past 5 months and that only a few of them have now fallen over is actually indicative of our high building standards. The real issue comes from a question that should have been asked 200 years ago along the lines of “why the fuck are we building on a swamp?”

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      23 February 2011 at 10:37 am

                      real issue comes from a question that should have been asked 200 years ago along the lines of “why the fuck are we building on a swamp?”

                      Fair points. Yeah same question that Queenslanders should have asked “why are we building on a known flood plain?”

                      People I know who remember back 40-50 years told me that a lot of the areas of Christchurch which are now built up was just marsh and silt when they were kids. That liquefaction which has blown up everywhere and destabilised structures, that’s what that is.

                      Nature-1, Man-0 (as usual)

                • Pete …
                  23 February 2011 at 10:38 am

                  Police nightshift commander Superintendent Russell Gibson this morning told Radio New Zealand there were scenes of “absolute carnage” in the centre of Christchurch.

                  Mr Gibson said there were 38 bodies in a temporary mortuary at Canterbury police station.

                  “I know that the figure of 65 [dead] has been mentioned, I know that it will be significantly higher than that.

                  “There are bodies littering the streets they’re trapped in cars, crushed under rubble, and where they are clearly deceased our focus unfortunately at this time has turned to the living,” he said.

                  http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10708166

  4. rosy 4
    23 February 2011 at 7:40 am

    ShababLibya: BREAKING: Al Hurra – Two Battleships shelling BENGHAZI #Libya #Feb17

    gaddafi said he would get his supporters to ‘chase the rats and drug addicts’ i.e the protesters. Another disaster in the making http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/feb/22/libya-gaddafi-speech-reaction-live-updates

    • rosy 4.1
      23 February 2011 at 8:22 am

      And to add to that…. If this is true these men are heroes:

      “We reported yesterday that a reliable source in Benghazi had told us about people there finding the bodies of about 150 officers who were apparently executed after refusing to fire on protesters.

      We’re still working to confirm that, but other outlets have now also been reporting that they are hearing the same story.

      Lisa Goldman, a Canadian-Israeli writer and blogger who contributes to +972 Magazine writes that she was told something similar by a source in Tripoli she spoke to for a detailed account of events on the ground.

      He also heard from several sources that officers in Benghazi, including air force officers, had been executed for refusing orders to kill the anti-government demonstrators. The same sources described a mass grave near Benghazi, containing the bodies of more than 100 executed officers.”

      • Marty G 4.1.1
        23 February 2011 at 8:28 am

        i saw video last night of burnt bodies, supposed troops who refused to shoot. not pleasant.

        also, video of africans (as opposed to arabs) who were supposedly mercenaries being captured. another report spoke of footage of executed mercenaries. apparently, there are ads in nigeria and guinea offering $2,000 a day to be a merc.

        hiring foreign mercs to shoot his own people because his troops refuse shows gaddafi is finished but he’s going down in a bloody manner.

        • Colonial Viper 4.1.1.1
          23 February 2011 at 9:29 am

          Gaddafi has had decades to prepare an exit which would give him a semblance of a legacy. But not like this. What the hell.

          Yeah also read reports of white South African mercs on the ground – but sounds speculative. They would be former S.A. special military and special police forces. Nasty stuff.

          • Pascal's bookie 4.1.1.1.1
            23 February 2011 at 9:36 am

            He’s said he won’t leave office alive,
            which translated into diplomatic speak comes out as:
            “The two sides are moving towards a mutually agreeable solution.”

    • Todd 4.2
      23 February 2011 at 9:15 am

      He also heard from several sources that officers in Benghazi, including air force officers, had been executed for refusing orders to kill the anti-government demonstrators. The same sources described a mass grave near Benghazi, containing the bodies of more than 100 executed officers.

      That’s terrible! The madness of power makes people do horrendous things sometimes. Let’s hope that this domino dictatorship falls soon and the effect gets quicker in any other countries that want freedom. I guess when things get so tough, people are willing to die for what they believe in.

      We live in interesting times.

  5. aj 5
    23 February 2011 at 8:31 am

    Reverse the tax cuts to help cover the uninsured and social costs.

    • Dilbert 5.1
      23 February 2011 at 8:42 am

      Increase GST by 1.5% for 10 years to contribute directly to the recovery of Christchurch.

      • Lanthanide 5.1.1
        23 February 2011 at 8:45 am

        Um, why institute a regressive tax when we could simply re-instate a progressive one to achieve the goal?

        Especially when the compliance costs for increasing GST (mostly borne by private business) are much worse than those for changing the tax rate (mostly borne by IRD)?

      • Colonial Viper 5.1.2
        23 February 2011 at 9:30 am

        Financial transactions tax and CGT thanks.

  6. Lanthanide 6
    23 February 2011 at 8:43 am

    Bob Parker seems to be doing a better job this time.

    • Marty G 6.1
      23 February 2011 at 8:47 am

      it’s more serious this time. there was opportunity for show-boating last time that both key and parker took. it would backfire this time.

      • Todd 6.1.1
        23 February 2011 at 9:32 am

        Looks like show boating to me. We have Shonkey with more scripted screen time than the people undertaking the rescues… I’ve not seen one interview with Phil Goff who was in the Earthquake. We have medical personnel the MCDM and CDEM to handle the situation. The politicians will just get in the way. Such political manipulation by National is a molestation of the disaster. Give the people suffering some respect and leave politics out of it. The biased media coverage is allowing grandstanding which is not appreciated by me, and I’m not alone.

        • Lanthanide 6.1.1.1
          23 February 2011 at 9:42 am

          There was a quite long interview with Goff this morning on the telly. You must’ve missed it. I’ve seen them replay a short clip of it where he talked about the crushed busses having bodies in them.

          • Vicky32 6.1.1.1.1
            23 February 2011 at 7:02 pm

            Don’t watch morning telly! (I am surprised that anyone does.. ) So, if he’s only been on the TV, it seems as if he’s been nowhere.)
            Radio and print for me!
            Deb

            • Carol 6.1.1.1.1.1
              23 February 2011 at 7:22 pm

              Goff was interviewed live on RNZ yesterday. He gave a report on waht he’d experienced. The interview, or parts of it, played several times.

            • Carol 6.1.1.1.1.2
              23 February 2011 at 7:23 pm

              Goff was interviewed live on RNZ yesterday. He gave a report on what he’d experienced. The interview, or parts of it, played several times.

        • Zaphod Beeblebrox 6.1.1.2
          23 February 2011 at 9:42 am

          Next to the workers, those struggling with the trauma and those risking their lives the politicians seem piddly and insgnificant- pretty well irrelevant at the moment. Less said about them the better.

        • interesting 6.1.1.3
          23 February 2011 at 10:58 am

          Todd, you clearly havent been paying attention. They have talked to Goff on several seperate occasions.

          Dont you get sick of your own political conspiracy theories?

          You are telling everyone else to leave politics out of it and yet you are here bringing politics in to it.

          John Key is our prime minister, it is expecte of him and his ministers to front. We would all be bitching and saying how uncaring they were if we didnt see them.

          Mr Goff is leader of the opposition and it is good to see him on the telly too. ANd when he was asked a politically charged question he reused to answer saying “this is not a time for politics”. Good on him.

          Bob Parker is the mayor, he is also expected to front. If he wasn’t then people like you would be telling us how bad it is that he wasnt there.

          Stop reading more in to it than what there is.

          • Draco T Bastard 6.1.1.3.1
            23 February 2011 at 1:56 pm

            John Key is our prime minister, it is expecte of him and his ministers to front. We would all be bitching and saying how uncaring they were if we didnt see them.

            They can front up at the Beehive – they don’t need to go there. In fact, them going there uses resources that are needed for the rescue.

            • interesting 6.1.1.3.1.1
              23 February 2011 at 4:36 pm

              DTB

              If he didnt go we would have to put up with people bitching “where is the PM” “He doesnt care” and “He was ‘missing in action’ when the people needed him”

              You know it is true.

              It is a catch 22 for jonkey.

    • Zaphod Beeblebrox 6.2
      23 February 2011 at 9:14 am

      He’s straight to the point, understandable, practical and he seems to have a reasonable knowledge of whats going (well as much as anyone could be expected to).

    • Arbovit 6.3
      23 February 2011 at 9:27 am

      Parker is doing a tremendous job. He’s sticking to clear and practical messages about what people need to be doing. He mentioned last night that he hasn’t heard from many of his family but he knows he’s got a job to do. He’s in the same situation as so many of the brave rescue workers and volunteers who are doing their best to find miracles of life among a grim reality of destruction.

  7. Oscar 7
    23 February 2011 at 9:40 am

    I wonder if John Key is finding it really really hard to be able to display some emotion? Every time I’ve seen him on TV, it’s completely matter of fact, no emotion whatsoever.
    It’s as if he’s reading off a scoreboard, wondering whats going to make him his next million.
    No doubt he’s totally ill prepared to handle disasters as a PM, and it’s probably harder than he thought it would be.
    Watching him reminds me of Anna from V.

    Contrast with Hillary Barry who seemed like she was about to cry every 10 minutes when she sees a building she recognises.

    Both of them are from Christchurch, but only one seems to care.

    At least in the major flood disasters we had in 2001/2002 (?) Helen was there every step of the way, hugging people, and even talked with emotion in her voice.

    As for the RWC – the 7 games are going to have to be moved. The city won’t be able to cope, and tourists will be far too nervous to spend time in the garden city.

    Final point: AirNZ should be offering FREE flights to and from Christchurch, and not profiteering in any way whatsoever. $50 is still too much when there’s 200,000 unemployed.

    We need to start getting people away from the city, away from the epicentre. Or have we all forgotten that Akaroa is a volcano, and technically isn’t extinct. Earthquakes cause volcanoes. The two are interlinked.

    • Colonial Viper 7.1
      23 February 2011 at 9:43 am

      Key physically and emotionally disconnected himself from his childhood a long time ago, you hadn’t noticed?

    • luva 7.2
      23 February 2011 at 9:45 am

      “Both of them are from Christchurch, but only one seems to care”

      You fucking idiot, are you seriously suggesting the PM doesn’t care about this huge loss of life and destruction. Put the hate filled politics to one side for fucks sake.

      • Lanthanide 7.2.1
        23 February 2011 at 9:48 am

        I agree with Oscar. Key comes across as unemotional.

        • interesting 7.2.1.1
          23 February 2011 at 11:00 am

          Helen Clark would have come across unemotional as well. So what. They are trying to portray strength. How would having the PM blubber about it all help those who are really struggling? They need to see someone who is being strong and in control.

          Both Phil Goff and John Key have come across well.

      • Oscar 7.2.2
        23 February 2011 at 9:53 am

        I’m not saying he doesn’t care
        It’s just that he doesn’t seem to. Surely, rather than saying “yes, expected to have severe casualties, billions of dollars of damage etc etc” how hard it is to say “all of NZ is behind christchurch after this terrible day”
        But no, it’s all about numbers isn’t it. Listen to him whenever he opens his mouth. Numbers. Money. Money Trader.

        • luva 7.2.2.1
          23 February 2011 at 10:01 am

          Oscar I suppose that is a subjective view and you are free to give your opinion.

          It just absolutley amazes me that over the past 24 hours we have seen some of the most horrific images we will probably all see in our life times. Yet some people are coming back here to play the same old daily game of Key stoning.

          Don’t get me wrong. He is there to be targeted for his policies and politics if you oppose them, but on a day when our people have died and are dying from a natural disaster I would have thought we can all forget about Key, Goff Wellington and the wonderful world of politics and focus on the kiwis who have had their hearts ripped out.

          Are we all that obsessed about the money trader?

          • Colonial Viper 7.2.2.1.1
            23 February 2011 at 10:04 am

            Observing people handle difficult situations is usually most revealing.

            • M 7.2.2.1.1.1
              23 February 2011 at 11:34 am

              Exactly CV, if you want a true picture of a person observe them during a crisis.

              Key has those horrible, dead, fish eyes.

        • Anne 7.2.2.2
          23 February 2011 at 9:23 pm

          He doesn’t care. It’s just play acting and he’s very good at it. He’s a sociopath. Sociopaths are not capable of genuine empathy.

          Oops… Vor has already commented. Oh well, no harm in reiteration.

      • The Voice of Reason 7.2.3
        23 February 2011 at 9:58 am

        Key seems to me to have the makeup of a psychopath, Luva. No empathy at all. He has never shown even the slightest bit of interest in the humans around him at any point in his recorded adult life. Watch the clip of him at the Wellington market that was up here the other day to see what I mean. Apart from his immediate family, he is only interested in the human race in terms of what they can do for him. Hell, maybe that applies to his immediate family too, given that when ever he’s in the shit, out come Bling Bling and Max to prop him up.

      • Todd 7.2.4
        23 February 2011 at 10:25 am

        I think Shonkey also cares about the shift in focus away from his lies, mismanagement and negative policies. He obviously does care about the loss of life, he is human after all. Isn’t he?

    • Lanthanide 7.3
      23 February 2011 at 9:46 am

      Hillary did an amazing job.

      The woman (junior?) reporter on the ground in TV1 was also excellent – she was providing useful information that was clear, wasn’t gabbling or repeating herself. Later on she said that her own car had been crushed, and yet she appeared unflappable and in control of the situation.

      “We need to start getting people away from the city, away from the epicentre. Or have we all forgotten that Akaroa is a volcano, and technically isn’t extinct. Earthquakes cause volcanoes. The two are interlinked.”

      Leave the geological analysis to the experts, thanks.

      • Oscar 7.3.1
        23 February 2011 at 9:56 am

        Yes, because the experts are so good at picking where an Earthquake is going to strike? And they know where the fault lines are. Even they’re not experts. The real experts are those that pay attention to the signals coming from nature itself.

        It’s already common knowledge the banks peninsula comprises three volcanos – Akaroa, Banks and Lyttleton Harbour.
        This fault line hasn’t erupted for several hundred thousand years. Who’s to say that a pool of magma isn’t building up under Christchurch, waiting to cause a fourth volcano. It is a weak point with the Mariana Trench literally just there.

        • Lanthanide 7.3.1.1
          23 February 2011 at 10:03 am

          Volcanoes and eruptions are significantly more predictable than earthquakes. If you look on geonet, you’ll see they have substantial sysmic detectors around volcanoes and take regular air samples from the calderas. Sure, they may not have specific measuring systems on an ‘extinct’ volcano, but I think if substantial changes were happening to a volcano, they’d know about it.

          • Oscar 7.3.1.1.1
            23 February 2011 at 10:14 am

            Captcha says it all: Impossible

            Indeed it is to see underground. There are no monitoring stations anywhere on the Banks that I’m aware of. Hell, there’s monitoring stations in Auckland for volcanic activity, yet none on the Banks.

            So no, we probably wouldn’t know if there were changes happening under christchurch right now for the simple fact theres no equipment there for it.

            Chances are too, the severity of the aftershocks are hiding any magma disturbances.

            • lprent 7.3.1.1.1.1
              23 February 2011 at 11:08 am

              That is probably because the banks peninsula volcanoes last showed activity at the most 6 million years ago. Wikipedia says 8 million – but they’re actually referring to the major shield volcano activity. From memory when I last looked at this area, there was some minor volcanic activity after that when you look at the geothermal evidence.

              Furthermore, even if these volcanoes were still active – these were basaltic volcanoes rather than andesitic or rhyolitic. Basically you’re getting yourself excited about something that wouldn’t be an issue.

        • Marty G 7.3.1.2
          23 February 2011 at 10:13 am

          the Mariana trench is 8000km away in the Marianas

          • Oscar 7.3.1.2.1
            23 February 2011 at 10:18 am

            Isn’t it the one thats off the coast of the South Island and goes up behind the Chathams? I’ve always thought of that as the Mariana Trench.

            • Colonial Viper 7.3.1.2.1.1
              23 February 2011 at 10:20 am

              Off wikipedia, looks like it is between Japan and Papua New Guinea.

              • Oscar …
                23 February 2011 at 10:29 am

                I’m thinking of the Kermadec Trench obviously. I always thought Mariana was closer to NZ.
                Doesn’t change my original hypothesis though.

                • Marty G …
                  23 February 2011 at 10:55 am

                  Kermandec Trench – 1158km from Christchurch

                  • Oscar …
                    23 February 2011 at 11:58 am

                    So really, not that far away geologically speaking.

                  • mcflock …
                    23 February 2011 at 12:18 pm

                    “Kermandec Trench – 1158km from Christchurch”

                    Bullshit – it’s only 2 finger-widths away.

                    In my atlas.

                    The real threat is when the kermadec-canterbury volcano erupts, it will open a passage for the dinosaurs that live in the center of the earth. Wellington is due for a cat-7 Godzilla attack, you know.

                    More realistically, does anyone know if civil defense have a “shopping list” anywhere for skills or gear they need at the moment?

                    • Oscar …
                      23 February 2011 at 12:38 pm

                      lolz. There’s a legend about Dinosaurs living in the centre of the earth and quakes are the effects of their footfalls echoing. Who knows whats in the centre. Best we have is a scientific analysis.

                      But so far off the mark when Jupiter has bright light shining from it’s poles leading credence to the theory that there’s a star in the centre.

                      But on topic, there is a chance of a volcanic eruption there before Auckland. After all, the last one was what, 9 million years ago? And these fault lines last erupted 700,000 -800,000 years ago, at best estimate from the experts – can’t find the link as seems to have been overtaken by recent events.
                      So when did this faultline last go? 2 million years ago?

                    • lprent []
                      23 February 2011 at 12:48 pm

                      Ah no. Rangitoto island last erupted about 600 years ago. The 50 or so volcanoes in the Auckland peninsula have been popping off at pretty frequent intervals over the last 100k years.

                      Maybe you’re referring to the Waitakere ranges which was last active about 12 million years ago.

    • lprent 7.4
      23 February 2011 at 10:02 am

      Earthquakes cause volcanoes. The two are interlinked.

      Not particularly. At least not this way around.

      Volcanic activity can cause minor earthquakes as the magma moves.

      Fault earthquakes can potentially cause magma chambers to rupture and a volcanic event. But it’d require a active magma chamber, and we’d already know about it because it’d be causing the distinctive earthquake pattern of magma intrusions.

      However I have never even heard of a volcanic event triggered by a fault earthquake. It isn’t that it couldn’t happen. But it is so unlikely that I’d worry about a asteroid collision first.

      • Oscar 7.4.1
        23 February 2011 at 10:09 am

        So the earthquake that occurred some 15 years before Vesuvius is so far apart on a time scale that it’s just not possible? Human timescale, no. Geological timescale, that’s about the speed of a bullet from a gun hitting someone.

        • lprent 7.4.1.1
          23 February 2011 at 11:12 am

          Probably had nothing to do with it. It is a geologically active area around the med basin and coincidental events in time can be expected.

          A rupture in a magma chamber caused by a earthquake would have a different time profile. It’d either be pretty immediate if the magma body found an immediate exit or it would take a lot lot longer than 15 years to melt a path to the surface.

          After all, you’re looking at geological timescales here.

          • joe90 7.4.1.1.1
            23 February 2011 at 12:49 pm

            the last one was what, 9 million years ago?

            Rangitoto.

            Human footprints have been found between layers of Rangitoto volcanic ash on the adjoining Motutapu Island

            • Oscar 7.4.1.1.1.1
              23 February 2011 at 1:15 pm

              No, I’m referring specifically to the Banks/Akaroa volcanoes that last erupted 9 million years ago.

              • Oscar …
                23 February 2011 at 1:25 pm

                http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?wp=GC2N0HC

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banks_Peninsula

                So estimates vary between 11 and 6 million years. Given it’s a seismically active region, who’s to discount the theory that there won’t be another volcanic eruption near banks. We could very well end up with another White Island.

                After all, Auckland had an earthquake what, 4 years ago? As lprent has helpfully pointed out, the time lag between an earthquake and volcano takes years.
                What if the quakes are an indicator of volcanic activity stirring, and the ruptures that happen deep within the earth allow for that magma to start melting a path to the surface?

                These quakes, given their depth and increasing shallowness, could very well be opening up fissures that allow for the magma to start flowing more rapidly towards the surface.

                There’s still so much we don’t know about how Earth works and can’t attribute either way.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  23 February 2011 at 1:29 pm

                  No need to worry about the packs of wolves ranging out there in the wilderness which may not even be there. Time to focus on rebuilding the homestead and making it stronger.

                  • Oscar …
                    23 February 2011 at 1:56 pm

                    If we’re going to rebuild, we do need to look at historical activity within the Earth and make assumptions. Can anyone confidently predict that there won’t be a volcanic eruption, or that there may be one within the next 10 -100 years?

                    Christchurch would be better off being rebuilt elsewhere given the entire CBD has most likely suffered liquefaction.

                    Why rebuild on sinking ground? Makes no sense.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      23 February 2011 at 2:07 pm

                      The whole idea of building on swamp, marshland and silt made no sense a hundred years ago. Human beings seem to have trouble no matter the century with a vast over-confidence in their analysis, technology and know how.

                    • Zaphod Beeblebrox …
                      23 February 2011 at 2:32 pm

                      JK said that ‘WE’ (the NZ govt??) would re-build Christchurch again. As far as long term commitments go thats a pretty big one. Has he costed it?

                      As far as commiting to re-building the CBD on the same site, thats was also a pretty big call by cabinet. I’m assuming he has consulted the goe-tech experts on that one.

                • lprent …
                  23 February 2011 at 1:50 pm

                  So estimates vary between 11 and 6 million years.

                  Ah no. The period that eruptions and other volcanic activity was happening was within a period of about 11 and 6 mya. You seem to be thinking that a volcano only blows off once which is completely fallacious (in fact I seem to remember pointing this out to you months ago).

                  Volcanism in an area invariably has multiple events spread over hundreds of thousands to millions of years because it is the result of plume of magma rising from the mantle into the crust. They persist because they are the result of convection currents moving the heat from radioactive decay up the gravitational column. Because liquid rock is quite viscous and radioactive decay is a slow process in such elements as uranium it takes geological ages to transfer the heat. Consequently the heat plumes tend to last for long periods of time.

                  As more magma gets towards the surface, it will periodically cause explosions and other variations in the level of surface activity. But each of those only releases a fraction of the energy in the plume, so you get series of eruptions. Best place to look at the evidence of a plume is to look at the seamounts that project up from the plume in the mid-pacific and punch volcanoes. The most recent active display from that plume is in the hawiian islands – but there are a lot of old now underwater volcanoes that you can see on the map from that same plume.

                  Auckland had an earthquake what, 4 years ago?

                  I haven’t had a look, but I’d take a bet that Auckland felt at least one earthquake today. For a starter we can feel the effects of the aftershocks still going on in Canterbury. You should really learn to insert some precision in what you say. Earthquakes are a continuous scale from virtually nothing to that will eventually devastate California. But earthquakes are not all the same. They are different depending on how they were caused.

                  What you probably mean is a earthquake that indicates magma movement. If you put your thinking hat on (ie the tinfoil one), you’d realize that earthquakes related to volcanoes are quite distinctive. They come from the same location each time, are quite shallow, and are really small in magnitude. The only time that people can feel them is when they are really really close to the surface and typically just before a volcano blows its top.

                  If you look at the earthquake events around Auckland for the last 50 years or so, you won’t find any of that type.

                  There’s still so much we don’t know about how Earth works and can’t attribute either way.

                  Correct. But there is also a awful lot that we do know about the earth and therefore a lot of ideas that can be positively excluded. Unfortunately most of your ideas tend to be in that category.

                  • Oscar …
                    23 February 2011 at 3:00 pm

                    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10425133

                    As you can see, these earthquakes were centred pretty much right under Auckland. The waves from Christchurch are a different beast altogether.

                    Volcanos can and do blow once. Tarawera, Rangitoto as recent examples. Blow once, then ongoing pyroclastic flows. Or is this a difference scientific explanation? I’m sure you have one.

                    Sure, the underground process may have taken thousands of years, but this is beside the point. I’m talking about the moment of breach.
                    The ongoing magma flow, as evidenced in the likes of Kilauea is inevitable.

                    “They come from the same location each time, are quite shallow, and are really small in magnitude. The only time that people can feel them is when they are really really close to the surface and typically just before a volcano blows its top.”

                    So a bit like the quakes centred right under Lyttleton, are only around 4 – 8 kms deep, and are quite small in magnitude.
                    Looking at archives on geonet, there’ve been a few hundred quakes from as far back as 2004 that were down around 30 – 50km, at 3 – 5.6 magnitude.

                    Perhaps we have been lulled into a false sense of security in regards to not worrying about a volcano in Christchurch. Hell, the TV3 disastermovies had a quake in Wellington, Volcano in Auckland… Christchurch has had one, why not the other.

                    The situation you describe as “They come from the same location each time, are quite shallow, and are really small in magnitude” are the effects of cumulative buildup. I.e. each quake deep within the earth simply allows for fissures to open allowing magma from the central chamber to creep out to the top.

                    So I’m presuming your thesis is that given that all these quakes are ALL in the same location, shallow, and that there is absolutely NO difference in between what causes a volcanic earthquake, or a fault earthquake (given that faults are largely where volcanos come from) that there’s no logical reasoning applicable to the hypothesis that a volcano could potentially erupt?

                    If not, then please educate me as to the time scale that is likely for a volcanic eruption after an earthquake, involving your factors such as shallow depth, small magnitude etc. hours, days, weeks, months?

                    In this instance, I’m assuming that by small magnitude you’re talking 3.5 – 4.5, or do you mean 1 – 1.5 type small?

                    • lprent …
                      23 February 2011 at 3:15 pm

                      Volcanos can and do blow once. Tarawera,Rangitoto as recent examples

                      Have a look at the profile of Rangitoto sometime (I can by just looking out the window), and you can see that there were at least two eruptions on rangitoto. You can see a ‘new’ cone in the crater of the ‘old’ cone. When you date those different cones (in that case you can even use carbon dating), you’ll find that they happened in two quite distinct periods.

                      Similarly anyone who has walked over the multiple craters on Tawawera is quite well aware that there were numerous eruptions. If you have a look in the Rotorua museum you can find original artwork showing what was clearly existing volcanic craters and cones prior to the 1888 eruption. The dating shows that Tawawera has been going off periodically for the last 18k years.

                      Ummm for the rest of it, what I am stating is that earthquakes on faults are distinctly different to earthquakes from fault lines. The latter show a geographic range in their release and emit a lot more energy (which is why they’re always referred to as being centred at a location – if you have a look at the more detailed data they will give the strike bearing of the quake and its length as well). Earthquakes from magma movement are by comparison point sources of far far lower energies. They are pretty well impossible to detect unless they are very close to the surface because their limited energy gets adsorbed quite rapidly by the surrounding rock.

                      Magma type tectonic movements are typically down under magnitude 2 range until they are actually just about to or are erupting. Then they may get up to human detectable levels at the 3-4 magnitude range of you happen to be quite close to them. They also have a quite different profile with the P/S/L waves (in fact they don’t look that much different from people blowing off large amounts of explosives underground).

                    • lprent …
                      23 February 2011 at 3:30 pm

                      As you can see, these earthquakes were centred pretty much right under Auckland.

                      As well as volcanoes, Auckland has a rather large number of faults under it as well. Most strikingly you can see this at the surface in the strike block fault that is the Waiwera river valley (I used to live around there) with the block that is Windy Ridge on one size and the rolling hills on the other.

                      Just because there are volcanoes around doesn’t mean that those faults aren’t geologically active…..

                • Mutante …
                  24 February 2011 at 12:37 am

                  Bloody hell Oscar. Just give it up mate. Talk about digging yourself a hole with a scientifically illiterate spade. For one thing you’ve not factored continental drift into your theories. The rest has been well laid out for you.

                  It’s not even mushie season yet.

    • Vicky32 7.5
      23 February 2011 at 7:15 pm

      Just heard John Key being interviewed by Clive. It’s exactly as you say Oscar – he displayed no emotion at all!
      Deb

  8. Pascal's bookie 8
    23 February 2011 at 10:09 am

    Would paritsans kindly get:

    i) some perspective
    ii) a fucking grip

    Just stop.

    kthxbai.

  9. freedom 9
    23 February 2011 at 10:36 am

    If you are on Vodafone, text QUAKE to 333 to donate $3, or text it to 555 to donate $5

  10. interesting 10
    23 February 2011 at 11:12 am

    Bob PArker just reporting on one news:

    55 identified dead.

    another 20 known to be dead, but yet to be identified.

    300 missing.

  11. Arbovit 11
    23 February 2011 at 11:25 am

    15 people alive in a pocket in the CTV building!

    • Colonial Viper 11.1
      23 February 2011 at 11:38 am

      Awesome! At last, one real bright spot in the morning.

    • Lanthanide 11.2
      23 February 2011 at 12:20 pm

      Just reported that they may be dead from asphyxiation and the rescue attempts at CTV may be called off.

      • Zorr 11.2.1
        23 February 2011 at 12:51 pm

        RNZ just reported that all rescue operations at the CTV building have been ceased as the reports of a pocket of 15 survivors were false and that experts are stating the likelihood of any survivors is nil.

  12. Colonial Viper 12
    23 February 2011 at 11:28 am

    Something *informative* about earthquakes and buildings off TVNZ. How and why old masonry buildings fail.

    http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/simon-dallow-talks-structural-engineer-collapsed-buildings-2-56-video-4038867

  13. Jon 13
    23 February 2011 at 11:47 am

    “On behalf of New Zealand, we all feel your pain,” says Mr Key.

    http://www.3news.co.nz/Christchurch-quake-Dire-water-warnings-/tabid/423/articleID/199401/Default.aspx

    Spare us the psychobabble John !

    If you don’t know what that means, the URL below describes it well.

    Psychobabble (a portmanteau of “psychology” or “psychoanalysis” and “babble”) is a form of prose using jargon, buzzwords and highly esoteric language to give an impression of plausibility through mystification, misdirection, and obfuscation. The term implies that the speaker of psychobabble lacks the experience and understanding necessary for proper use of a given psychological term. Frequent usage can associate a clinical word with less meaningful buzzword definitions. Some psychological buzzwords have come into widespread use in business management training, motivational seminars, self-help, folk psychology, and popular psychology. Laypersons may overuse such words in describing life problems as clinical maladies when such nomenclature is not valuable, meaningful or appropriate. Theodore Dalrymple defines the term as “the means by which people talk about themselves without revealing anything”.[1]

    Psychobabble is also a psychological term used to denote the misdiagnosis and misclassification of natural variation in human psychology as psychopathological, or mentally disordered, and is based upon the premise of exaggerated overmedicalization of physiological ailments to increase profits for the medical industry.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychobabble

    Dear John,

    If you have something meaningful to say, then just say it – honestly, simply, and sincerely.

    Otherwise you might come across as just another fly-by-night financial spruiker with a bolt-hole overseas.

    Can that be all there is ?

  14. gobsmacked 14
    23 February 2011 at 11:48 am

    Key’s speech clearly impressed many people (see Twitter), but I thought it struck the wrong note. A lot of Churchillian/Reagan flourishes, but to me that belongs at a memorial service. It’s a time for solid information, not sweeping rhetoric.

    Still, Key wasn’t as bad as the journalists. Rugby World Cup? Reserve Bank? Fuck off.

    • pollywog 14.1
      23 February 2011 at 11:55 am

      Rugby World Cup? Reserve Bank? Fuck off.

      CH…CHING goes the register in his head and suddenly he becomes animated, like some zombie banker creaking into life…

      …cos funnily enough, that’s the only time he displayed real interest in what he was saying

  15. interesting 15
    23 February 2011 at 12:11 pm

    Comments on here are becoming petty and spiteful. It is clear that people can not put aside their political alliances to have a discussion. I am sure that if the boot was on the other foot at Mr Goff were leader, and he said the EXACT same thing there would not be the drivel being written here that i am seeing.

    I would think that people would put aside petty comments and attacks for another day.

    Sad really.

    An inditment on the people who comment. Such a shame.

    • pollywog 15.1
      23 February 2011 at 12:21 pm

      I am sure that if the boot was on the other foot at Mr Goff were leader, and he said the EXACT same thing there would not be the drivel being written here….

      no…it’d all be written over at Kiwibog.

      Doesn’t matter what we say here, it’s what we do in real life that matters.

    • gobsmacked 15.2
      23 February 2011 at 12:26 pm

      I wouldn’t vote for Bob Parker, any more than I would vote for Key, but I can still see the difference between the crisis communication skills of the Mayor and the Prime Minister.

      Mayor – to the point, focussed, informative, practical.

      Key – flowery and waffly.

      People don’t want to be told “You will overcome”. They want to be told “Here’s how.”

      Key’s speech was written by a Beehive staffer who has seen too many movies, and can’t distinguish them from reality.

      • Colonial Viper 15.2.1
        23 February 2011 at 12:32 pm

        “You will overcome” – same message as, if you get off your ass, pull your socks up, you’ll find a good job no problems.

  16. interesting 16
    23 February 2011 at 12:12 pm

    This from the Herald on the state of emergency and what it means:

    What a national state of emergency entails

    Declaring a national state of emergency is an option when a disaster or other event is or is likely to be of such severity that it is beyond the resources of the local Civil Defence groups.

    It provides for a national resources to be marshalled to perform emergency functions and tasks such as:

    * rescues
    * evacuations from dangerous areas and the closing off of buildings, homes and other premises, public places and roads.
    *setting up first aid posts
    *providing relief such as emergency food, clothing and shelter
    *regulating road, air and sea traffic
    *undertaking the emergency disposal of bodies

    It also allows authorities to requisition any land, building, vehicle, animal, boat, equipment, construction materials, bedding, food and medical supplies considered necessary for the preservation of human life.

  17. William Joyce 17
    23 February 2011 at 12:21 pm

    Is it just me or is “I’ve got a leaked report from the police” Barry Soper just a brown-nosing, self-aggrandising, toady?

    Anti-spam: Leader NOT

  18. interesting 18
    23 February 2011 at 12:26 pm

    Whats he done now William?

    • William Joyce 18.1
      23 February 2011 at 4:42 pm

      His praise for Key’s speech today when he spoke to SKY News Aust. As has already been stated – it was wildly inappropriate for this stage in the proceedings and attempting to duplicate the inspiration of great orators but without any real oratory skill.

      He reads prepared speeches like some reticent, pimply faced, mumbling teenager reading “What I did on my holidays” school report.

      Lack of good oratory can be forgiven when as NZdrs are no match for those influenced by southern us church culture (Obama, Clinton) but this should have been reserved for the funeral/memorial services.

      But for Soper to praise Key giving a good speech and for “hitting all the right notes” was a little too much brown-nosing for my tastes.

      • interesting 18.1.1
        23 February 2011 at 7:33 pm

        I cant help but feel you are being purely spiteful towards Key solely because he is a tory.

        Give the guy a break.

        Him and Goff and Parker are doing their best in such a horrible situation

      • interesting 18.1.2
        23 February 2011 at 7:34 pm

        I cant help but feel you are being purely spiteful towards Key solely because he is a tory.

        Give the guy a break.

        Him and Goff and Parker are doing their best in such a horrible situation.

        • William Joyce 18.1.2.1
          23 February 2011 at 8:39 pm

          “I cant help but feel…” Of course you can. And my spite is neither pure nor refined. But in this instance The fact that the man is a Tory has little to do with it.

          Admittedly I am jaded by the king of spin and the cadre of speech writers and advisers that have tried to tell me that black is white. I am tired of seeing fake sincerity and smiles that hide…..actually I don’t know what it hides but I do detect the presence of sulphur. Certainly when it comes to policy that is dated, evidentially proven defective and does not serve the best interests of the country I love. Like the boy who cried wolf, it requires an act of will to believe him when he is really trying to be sincere. Perhaps if he just had bullet points and spoke from his heart?

          That aside….I made three main points:
          1. The content and tone of the speech was inappropriate for the moment
          2. He, like other NZ speakers, lacks the oratory skills which “strike the right notes”
          3. Soper was a git to say that he had.

          • interesting 18.1.2.1.1
            23 February 2011 at 8:56 pm

            Problem is William that most people DO think he hit the right notes etc.

            For you to sit as judge and jury as to whether someone is sincere is utterly repulsive.

            Just because someone doesnt show what you deem to be the required signs of someone who is empathetic, sympathetic and sincere, doesnt mean that they are not.

            I havent seen a tear shed by Phil Goff, I havent heard him “sound” sincere (rather robotic – as is his normal tone) and yet i do not doubt for a second his sincerety. Neither do i doubt Key and his sincerity.

            I find it disappointing and somewhat off colour that you would even suggest otherwise. It shows, in my opinion, your lack of sensitivity to the situation.

            As i have already said, most have found Key to be great, sincere and on the button. In fact i not long got off the phone to my parents to see how they are doing and they think that Mr Key came across as “genuine, real and caring” (their words) and they have voted Labour for years and dont usually like Key.

            They can look past their default position on Key and judge him on the basis of his character and handling of this, along with his speech, seperate from their usual thoughs of him. Maybe you could try and do the same.

            • Colonial Viper 18.1.2.1.1.1
              23 February 2011 at 9:05 pm

              Wow Righties are really keen on their adjectives “spiteful”, “repulsive”, etc.

              They really have brain centres which light up differently. Judgemental, self righteous, born to rule.

              They can look past their default position on Key and judge him on the basis of his character and handling of this

              You’ve got to be fraking joking? What “handling” has Key done? English has been doing a tonne of the heavy lifting in Brownlee’s absence, and remember the NACT Government’s delivery on promises to business owners and home owners after September was mediocre at best.

              So why is it that your parent’s judgement of Key’s character suddenly improved in the last couple of days? What exactly did Key do in the last 36 hours which told them he deserved to move up from their negative “default position” of him, and which proved to them that his character had suddenly got better?

              most have found Key to be great, sincere and on the button.

              Full of shit.

              • interesting …
                23 February 2011 at 9:20 pm

                CV, you are a case in point.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  23 February 2011 at 9:28 pm

                  All I’m saying is that Key does great impression management, and what you’ve said about your parents shows that.

                  Key let down entire suburbs, workers, and even the Christchurch Chamber of Commerce (his supposed mates) after promising the world in September, so a damn speech with some show time on TV over the last 36 hours is worth what?

                  And remember how he let down the families at Pike River. Turned up promised the world, and when recovery ops got canned, didn’t front up.

                  So now he “hits all the right notes” in an interview and suddenly his character is rehabilitated?

                  Meh.

              • interesting …
                23 February 2011 at 9:27 pm

                They can put side political bullshit and see that he is being there, doing something, etc

                but people like you have your blinkers on and seem to think that it is entirely impossible for someone other than your chosen ones to have any good bone in them.

                Pathetic.

                IT shows that your judgement is blurred by your hate for Key and the Nats.

                Frankly, if you and some of the others are representitive of this site, then i am going to take permanent leave of this site.

                A pity really, because despite the views of this site being different to mine, i have always enjoyed reading another view on things and have had some of my opinions changed because of what i have read here.

                But, after the comments I have read today, I feel that I am no longer interested in reading stuff here if this is the way people are going to be, that they cant look past themselves and even see one speck of goodness in their political opponents. It shows lack of maturity and a side of humanity that i cant be bothered with.

                To all the regular posters, all the best. I have valued your differeing opinions to mine, but today has shown me a side of people that i am not interested in wasting my time reading anymore.

                Hope you get well soon lprent.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  23 February 2011 at 9:32 pm

                  “Pathetic” – another choice adjective.

                  that they cant look past themselves and even see one speck of goodness in their political opponents. It shows lack of maturity and a side of humanity that i can be bothered with.

                  Seriously, Key’s delivery after Christchurch/Sept, and after Pike River was…shall we say, spotty.

                  What else would you like us to say?

                  Fare thee well.

                • William Joyce …
                  23 February 2011 at 10:53 pm

                  Perhaps you do need to go away for a while. Catch a few rays or something and then come back and re-read what has been written and you will see (as so often happens in the blogo world) that what you think you have read is not what was written or intended.

                  Or maybe it was………;-)

                • William Joyce …
                  23 February 2011 at 11:03 pm

                  btw interesting – you make a lot of wild accusations about my beliefs and motivations. Such a poor way to challenge ideas.

                  “your judgement is blurred by your hate” – and your evidence for this is what?

                  “if you and some of the others are representitive of this site” – if you read this site you would see that I’m not but sometimes I agree with people and sometimes I don’t – but they get me to think and look at issues.

                  “that they cant look past themselves and even see one speck of goodness in their political opponents.” – and, again, your evidence for this is what?

                  captcha : impression – and as we know, the first of these can be deceiving.

            • William Joyce 18.1.2.1.1.2
              23 February 2011 at 11:20 pm

              “Problem is William that most people DO think he hit the right notes etc.” – what poll are you using to back up this finding?

              “I havent seen a tear shed by Phil Goff” – I didn’t mention Goff. BTW I think Goff’s measured speech comes across to me as patronising and a bit school teacher-ish. Not a big fan at all.

              “I find it disappointing and somewhat off colour that you would even suggest otherwise. It shows, in my opinion, your lack of sensitivity to the situation.” – It would be nice to know how you know this about me? (I’m finding it so hard not to whip out a can of sarcasm!)

              “most have found Key to be great, sincere and on the button.” – you have empirical evidence for this?”

              Oh, no wait…..”In fact i not long got off the phone to my parents”

              There we go….Interesting phones home.

              opps, I slipped. (Now I have to go off to Mistress Crusher and have my “You’ve been a naughty boy” absolution session- damn!)

  19. ianmac 19
    23 February 2011 at 2:27 pm

    Flow on effect. The delivery of Census Papers has been suspended at least until Friday and possibly longer. Understandable as many have more pressing problems. Wouldn’t think it would be a good time for Godly Bible people to knock on doors either.

    • Anne 19.1
      23 February 2011 at 9:37 pm

      “Wouldn’t think it would be a good time for Godly Bible people to knock on doors either.”

      You’re right there mate. Love to be fly on the front door…

  20. HC 20
    23 February 2011 at 2:27 pm

    To “The Baron” and anyone who shares that poster’s view:

    Your comments do not surprise or seriously offend me at all!

    I am well aware that in moments like this “patriotic” emotions are fuelled and encouraged by “Nationalists” and that sort of people.

    Of course I would like to have ALL NZ’ers and other people affected stand united and concentrate of the truly most important actions that need to be taken now.

    It is nice to talk about “solidarity” when such severe crisis hit us. That word is swiftly forgotten in day to day government and business routine when nobody really gives a damn about the long term future of NZ, the dying ex servicemen in rest homes, the poor elderly not able to afford heating in winter, the sick and invalid feeling intimidated to feel responsible to find some kind of work to supplement reduced benefits they have to live off.

    Mental health services are cutting or rationing their services under this government, so at the same time psychiatric patients are denied proper, well resourced and effective treatment to get well and return to work. Instead they will at the same time be pushed into work testing.

    Sorry to remind everybody of this.

    I followed developments in CH CH all day yesterday, after the quake struck. I felt compassion and sadness.

    Through own life crisis I have though learnt that one must learn to think the unthinkable. We all tend to take many things for granted. The more we have in disposable income (the richer we are), the more we tend to want more.

    Events such as the historic, devastating quake in CH CH remind us that there are more simple things in life to value. Yes we should value life itself more than we often do.

    In times as this I feel highly offended and reminded about the callous cynicism and cold-bloodedness shown by the business environment we have, which includes most of the media. Only for a short time were commercial s interrupted or stopped during live broadcasts yesterday. In the early or mid evening they were started again, at least on some TV and radio media channels.

    “Well we have to make a living”, some will say. Of course, but I feel that out of respect for the dead, the injured, the immense damages suffered we should not have commercials run that promote consumerism, are made to make more profits and that are simply insensitive and distract from what is important.

    Also are there other things I can raise, like how politicians in parliament do adjourn a meeting, hold respectful speeches and afterwards get the knives out again to attack each other.

    Truth is we are all human, and having raised a question that for some is unthinkable, I do not regret for a moment having done so. At least some have the courage and strength to look a bit deeper into issues and further ahead.

    Thank you.

    H.C.

    • The Baron 20.1
      23 February 2011 at 3:17 pm

      I’m glad you’re not offended, HC. My bile was not aimed at you. And who knows what impact this will have on an election that is still six months away.

      What I believe however is that neither personality is doing what they’re doing out of desire for photo ops. Others have a different opinion – and some of those others are partisan cocks.

      • ianmac 20.1.1
        23 February 2011 at 3:27 pm

        Of course Politicians are spokesmen and do the job as well as they can. The situation calls for that. Good on them. But I am sure that they do so in such a way as to be, if you like, politically correct. Thought has to be given by them and their strategists as how best to present themselves and that is OK too. But some will cast a critical eye over their judgement.

  21. marty mars 21
    23 February 2011 at 3:15 pm

    Hone has walked

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4694616/Harawira-quits-Maori-Party

    He will be a good independent but now we can begin to build an alternative maori party to truely represent maori interests and the interests of everyone who believes in equality, fairness and support for those disadvantaged in our society.

  22. Pascal's bookie 22
    23 February 2011 at 3:57 pm

    In case people haven’t seen the Deborah Coddington trainwreck:

    http://pundit.co.nz/content/kia-kaha-christchurch#comment-6101

    …in which she gets offended on behalf of the people of Christchurch;

    in a way, and for a reason, that yall just plain won’t believe;

    and assails her critics;

    with hilarious effect.

    • Colonial Viper 22.1
      23 February 2011 at 4:05 pm

      Thanks to Lew who made this comment about Coddington’s remarks:

      It’s like that anecdote about Amy Chua; her toddler gave her a birthday card & she rejected it saying “not good enough”.

      Stay classy.

      😀

      Deborah should really learn to log out after a few savs, and before any real damage is done.

    • Carol 22.2
      23 February 2011 at 4:36 pm

      OMG. Thanks for that link. That really lightened up my day.

      • Pascal's bookie 22.2.1
        23 February 2011 at 5:34 pm

        It’s quite something.

        The whole thing reads like something from ‘McSweeney’s internet tendency’.

    • jimmy 22.3
      23 February 2011 at 8:34 pm

      From Joe Wylie:

      “Yes, but then what do you know?”

      Gotta admit that trivial liquifaction issues have rather distracted my tiny mind from the noble struggle against the creeping tide of post-modernist backsliding.

      Comedy gold, chch needed something like that.

      captcha: universal[?]

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