Open Mike 24/10/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 24th, 2018 - 279 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

279 comments on “Open Mike 24/10/2018 ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. Ed 1
    24 October 2018 at 6:22 am

    Roger Waters speaks truth to power.
    The first in a series.

    #1 Syria

    “This is a very important issue. It was a concert in Barcelona, in April. And there were two important moments: first of all, on the evening of April the 7th, the White Helmets released a video shot in the Syrian city of Duma. In the video there was a hospital, many children in masks, which were sprayed watered all the time, and the authors of the video claimed that this was the consequences of a chemical attack.

    Based on this video, Donald Trump, with his inherent infantile stupidity, and also Teresa May and Macron decided to join a missile strike against Syria. The United States, Britain and France made this decision based on the White Helmets’ video alone. And it was obvious that this was a fake, that there was no chemical attack and now we know for sure. All this happened on April the 7th – the news then appeared on the 8th, and I believe that my concert was on that evening.

    Many of their materials were exposed as an obvious lie. As for Duma, the militants, jihadists, were already leaving the city. The Syrian army inflicted enough blows on them to make it clear that they would not be able to hold the city, and they left about two days later. Two days later, two journalists came to the scene: Robert Fisk of the Independent newspaper and Pearson Sharpe from a very conservative Christian television company in Texas. There were no other journalists at that time in the Duma

    They both went to the hospital, both spoke with doctors, with local residents, they were not associated with Assad and the government of Syria. But they both reported the same thing. According to them, all the doctors said that there was no chemical attack. No one died in the Duma on the day when it was supposed to happen, not a single person. After all, initially it was about 50, or 60 dead, and the doctors said that there were people with breathing problems in the hospital, but these problems arose because of the dust – simply because the city is at war. That’s why I said on the stage that this is all falsification, and we, citizens of the United States, France and Great Britain, must demand that our governments do not bomb a foreign state because of something they have not even figured out….”

    https://t.co/0RjeYjbNNL?amp=1

    Next up in the series ‘Roger Waters speaks truth to power‘ The Skripals

    • Sanctuary 1.1
      24 October 2018 at 6:44 am

      Are you also concerned about the secret Nazi base on the dark side of the Moon, Ed?

      • Ed 1.1.1
        24 October 2018 at 6:55 am

        Shoot the message, not the messenger.

      • RedLogix 1.1.2
        24 October 2018 at 7:04 am

        There is only a finite domain of absolute knowledge; logic for example.

        Most other things are not black and white and instead I mentally assign some nominal probability to them. Most reasonable people think the probability of a secret Nazi base on the dark side of the moon exceedingly unlikely. Although given that such a thing is does not entirely violate any known laws of physics the probability is not zero. I’d call it a 0.0001% possibility.

        The probability of what Ed is talking about is much higher, definitely possible although not probable. If you pressed me for a number I’d allocate a 10% to it. Mainly because you really have to respect Robert Fisk as a source; assuming the reference is true.

        Feel free to argue the probability down with a constructed argument, and cites … but making comparisons with an especially feeble strawman carries zero credit.

          • RedLogix 1.1.2.1.1
            24 October 2018 at 7:51 am

            OK so that bumps it up; but even then I’m not going to fall over and call it a dead cert either 🙂

            • francesca 1.1.2.1.1.1
              24 October 2018 at 8:06 am

              so you didnt click on the OPCW report?

              • Bill …
                24 October 2018 at 9:46 am

                Nobody who doesn’t want to know wants to read the OPCW report francesca. If they did (say by accident or coercion), they’d bend the findings to fit their conspiracy.

                Russians cleaned it up. Syrians cleaned it up. The people in Douma are stoogies/liars/ frightened/ have no idea what they’re talking about.

                It was raining; the wind blew it all away; it degraded… anything that will allow them to continue believing.

                • francesca …
                  24 October 2018 at 9:59 am

                  Yep, the only OPCW investigation since 2013 that obeyed its own chain of custody rules ……must be invalid, not worth mentioning
                  Cheers Bill

              • McFlock …
                24 October 2018 at 9:59 am

                I did.

                They don’t know for sure either way. So probably not chlorine, but they also said some “The FFM noted that the persons affected in the reported incidents may, in some instances, have been exposed to some type of non-persistent, irritating substance.”

                • Bill …
                  24 October 2018 at 10:18 am

                  And bang on cue! 🙂

                  I take it you expect people to presume some type of non-persistent, irritating substance to be a chemical (just not chlorine)? I mean, I guess since you’ve connected that quote to “don’t know for sure either way” that we are meant to discount, or not even think about irritating substances like dust, yes?

                  Even though person after person is on record as reporting they went to the hospital because dust and difficulty in breathing because dust and doctors on duty, when interviewed said dust.

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    24 October 2018 at 12:08 pm

                    Dust isn’t a poisonous chemical deployed for military purposes.

                  • McFlock …
                    24 October 2018 at 12:20 pm

                    Could be some people confused dust for a chlorine gas attack. I do it all the time around road works /sarc.

                    Could be some people from one side or t’other lobbed tear gas or something similar, causing panic.

                    Could even have been a limited release of some more lethal agent made less effective due to environmental condition.

                    Point being, nobody is exonerated by the OPCW. Other people were on record claiming gas. But it was a Syrian/Russian advance, so we must assume the most innocuous event. If the advance were on the other foot, the darned US-backed “headchoppers” would have been fiendishly deploying gas, no question. 🙄

                    • Bill …
                      24 October 2018 at 1:04 pm

                      And now, quickly two stepping from arm wavy might’ves/could’ves to the tired old insinuation that anyone not displaying suitable levels of blind obedience to the “official” narrative is an Assadist/Putinbot/ Putinesta…

                      Wow.

                      I mean, from a dishonestly presented piece of cherry picked info, to what if and might have, to ‘only bad people who support bad people’ would disagree with my position…and all in the space of two short comments!

                    • McFlock …
                      24 October 2018 at 1:24 pm

                      Nah, not “anyone”.

                      Just that if the OPCW had definitely stated chlorine were used, you and ed and co would be coming up with reasons to discredit it or claim the (to use the common term) “headchoppers” had self-inflicted it.

                      And if the OPCW had ruled out any irritant exposure, you’d all be touting them as an unimpeachable independent authority.

                    • Bill …
                      24 October 2018 at 7:07 pm

                      If the OPCW had found that chlorine had been used, then that would have been generally accepted as fact.

                      They found nothing. And it’s you who is banging on that there may well have been something, just not the something that was the something people were expecting or wanting or looking for – but something.

                      As for assigning blame, well that’s not (or wasn’t) within the scope of the OPCW. (Unfortunately, that may have changed.)

                      You know if there’s a bingo card been drawn up? We need a bingo card.

                    • McFlock …
                      24 October 2018 at 10:14 pm

                      Like the novichok was, I guess.

                      People might have been affected by something non-persistent, or it could be the first dust storm in history confused with a gas attack

                    • Ed …
                      24 October 2018 at 10:19 pm

                      Sadly propaganda works on most people.
                      They live in a simplistic world of goodies vs baddies.
                      What we need is grey….

                • francesca …
                  24 October 2018 at 11:10 am

                  What? They don’t know for sure either way?
                  So, in the first time since 2013 the OPCW has had full chain of custody
                  they’ve ruled out organophosphate nerve agent, no degradation product in plasma of alleged victims or environmental samples.
                  So although CW use was the excuse for the bombing of Syria by France, the US and UK, no such thing was recorded by the OPCW
                  Various organic chlorinated chemicals found in 2 sites. More to be done in this area before a conclusion can be reached.
                  There’d be chlorinated residue in my urine every time I come home from a city visit anywhere in NZ…

                  Chlorine gas has long lasting effects on the lungs…scarring etc, so autopsies presumably
                  would have given some indication….

              • Draco T Bastard …
                24 October 2018 at 12:06 pm

                OPCW designated labs conducted analysis of prioritised samples. The results show that no organophosphorous nerve agents or their degradation products were detected in the environmental samples or in the plasma samples taken from alleged casualties. Along with explosive residues, various chlorinated organic chemicals were found in samples from two sites, for which there is full chain of custody. Work by the team to establish the significance of these results is on-going. The FFM team will continue its work to draw final conclusions.

                The Fact-Finding Mission also issued a report on 2 July 2018 addressing allegations of chemical weapons use in Al-Hamadaniya, Syria on 30 October 2016, and Karm al-Tarrab, Syria on 13 November 2016. On the basis of the information received and analysed, the prevailing narrative of the interviews, and the results of the laboratory analyses, the FFM cannot confidently determine whether or not a specific chemical was used as a weapon in the incidents that took place in the neighbourhood of Al-Hamadaniyah and in the area of Karm al-Tarrab. The FFM noted that the persons affected in the reported incidents may, in some instances, have been exposed to some type of non-persistent, irritating substance.

                Nothing there to prove that poisonous gasses were used at all. THere’s a slight hint in the last line but that could just be the result of the use of allowed weapons.

      • Philj 1.1.3
        24 October 2018 at 7:23 am

        Santuary, are you concerned about the family living in the car? Are you concerned about Germans on the Lune?

      • SpaceMonkey 1.1.4
        24 October 2018 at 9:06 am

        It’s not a Nazi base… get your facts right! It’s an alien base! 🙂

      • Morrissey 1.1.5
        24 October 2018 at 11:32 am

        Idiot you are.

    • veutoviper 2.1
      24 October 2018 at 12:03 pm

      Thanks for that. I always had hopes that Gilliard would be able to last the distance. Sadly …

      So it was good to hear the wonderful reception she got.

  3. cleangreen 3
    24 October 2018 at 7:18 am

    Jami is staying at a friend’s home now stated by RNZ as ‘out of Auckland’ and is following a “Planed Health plan” policy.

    Who was the National MP that had sent the ‘abusive text message’ to Jami!!

    Was it Simon Bridges or Paula Bennett?

    The police should be telling us.

    More to come.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018668007/female-mp-sent-abusive-text-to-jami-lee-ross

    • Chris T 3.1
      24 October 2018 at 7:39 am

      Probably one of the many he treated like a piece of shit

      • Treetp 3.1.1
        24 October 2018 at 8:58 am

        It does not make it alright for a person treated like shit to treat the person like shit back. No matter what your gender is.

        It does not make it alright to use an affair against someone.

        It is obvious that the channels used to have resolved the private now public affair failed.

        As for the other two woman, they need to see someone who is not part of the National Party if their situation of inappropriate behaviour is unresolved.

      • mpledger 3.1.2
        24 October 2018 at 9:06 am

        How many people end relationships thinking the other person is a wonderful human being? We’ve only heard one side of the story, the side that suits National.

      • Kevin 3.1.3
        24 October 2018 at 9:23 am

        I feel the same way about those families the National Party had tossed out of state houses, so they could sell those houses to their mates.

        But that’s just me.

    • Dennis Frank 3.2
      24 October 2018 at 10:05 am

      “Who was the National MP that had sent the ‘abusive text message’ to Jami!! Was it Simon Bridges or Paula Bennett?” And you linked to “Female MP sent abusive text to Jami-Lee Ross”

      Subtle. We didn’t know Simon had become female. I agree such news ought to be underplayed due to possible mental health consequences. Well done.

    • Adrian 3.3
      24 October 2018 at 10:23 am

      Hang on. What happened to the 5 days assessment after a sectioning? . I thought that was cast in stone, at least the Speaker thought so.
      Maybe JLR is not as unfit as some would like us to think.

      • ankerawshark 3.3.1
        24 October 2018 at 12:27 pm

        Adrian 3.3 it seems like a possibility that National applied to section Ross and then my own theory is that he was not sectionable, but agree to stay voluntarily for his mental health……………………..

        It does deserve to be clarrified including who broke to the media that he had been sectioned to a mental health unit.

  4. Treetop 4
    24 October 2018 at 7:27 am

    A person needs to take and be responsible for their own behaviour.

    Since Labour day when someone wrote
    “Tell the truth and be destroyed.”

    I have thought a lot about how the misuse of power, can be so destructive. Reputations are ruined, there are no winners.

    What I would like to see happen, is that people in positions who hold power are held accountable for when they misuse their power.

    • Draco T Bastard 4.1
      24 October 2018 at 12:17 pm

      What I would like to see happen, is that people in positions who hold power are held accountable for when they misuse their power.

      Yep. Laws against corruption and the telling lies.

      • Treetop 4.1.1
        24 October 2018 at 2:15 pm

        There can be consequences for telling the truth, (raising awareness on an issue) and consequences for ignoring the truth, (not adequately investigating a complaint and concealing information).

  5. Cinny 5
    24 October 2018 at 7:37 am

    Watching simon interviewed on newshub.

    He was asked if the nats had anything to do with jlr ending up in hospital.

    simon didn’t answer the question.

    Will post a clip when it becomes available.

    Just wanted to add, for most of the interview he talked about himself and how great he thinks he is. simon appears to have a large ego. JS

    • ScottGN 5.1
      24 October 2018 at 9:02 am

      I can’t face too many more tv clips of Simon eating that bloody ice cream.

    • Cinny 5.2
      24 October 2018 at 9:05 am

      Here’s the clip…..

      ‘Simon Bridges dodges queries over National involvement in Jami-Lee Ross’ sectioning’

      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/10/simon-bridges-dodges-queries-over-national-involvement-in-jami-lee-ross-sectioning.html

      • SpaceMonkey 5.2.1
        24 October 2018 at 9:35 am

        Bridges sure talks a lot about “the reality”… yet all I get is a picture of him being on another planet from everyone else. A bit like his mentor…

        • Treetop 5.2.1.1
          24 October 2018 at 10:11 am

          Bridges has an internal inquiry on a matter when it suits him, to avoid taking responsibility or being complicit.

          As for backing off JLR, Bridges keeps raising JLR’s part in alleged in appropriate behaviour.

          Bennetts behaviour was inappropriate raising affairs, as she singled out JLR.

          I do not condone inappropriate behaviour between any gender. Nor do I condone processes to address the inappropriate behaviour using dirty politics.

        • Patricia Bremner 5.2.1.2
          24 October 2018 at 5:08 pm

          Spacemonkey “Talks a lot about the reality .” Bridge’s reality against JLR’s??

          • SpaceMonkey 5.2.1.2.1
            24 October 2018 at 5:21 pm

            Just the reality in general… doesn’t matter what the subject is. Tony at 5.2.3 captures it nicely.

        • patricia bremner 5.2.1.3
          24 October 2018 at 11:57 pm

          1000+

      • Dukeofurl 5.2.2
        24 October 2018 at 10:13 am

        Considering that National had fired their Mp from the party a few days before , even being involved at all totally stinks.

        They had no role in his care ( on the contrary they want to rip his throat out). Its his family and any doctors that he is a patient of that are the ones that could have a role .

        Not a nexis of the national party- outside medical professionals- police

        • Stuart Munro 5.2.2.1
          24 October 2018 at 12:03 pm

          We don’t really have a credible outline of events yet, but what Muttonbird said on Daily Review yesterday makes sense.

          JLR, after a domestic is thrown out, and heads to his electorate office to work out what to do next.

          Enter Mark Mitchell, who says something along the lines of: “You’re not in the party anymore, gtfo or be done for trespassing.”

          JLR demurs, and Mitchell, being a police insider, has backup on the spot before you can say knife.

          JLR goes ballistic, but doesn’t smack anyone. Mitchell having failed to get the conviction he wanted, prompts an attempted section.

          In assessment, the clinician, not inclined to play Russian roulette with their career, says “Look, you’re distressed but nothing more, but you can stay here if you want. Best sort out somewhere to stay & leave when you’re ready”.

      • Tony Veitch [not etc.] 5.2.3
        24 October 2018 at 10:42 am

        Crikey, Soimon, the reality is not quite the reality in reality, now really isn’t it, in reality, so to speak, and under my leadership.

        How to talk in cliches and say nothing.

        • Gabby 5.2.3.1
          24 October 2018 at 11:07 am

          Bodges has to throw in the under my leadership as a reminder.

          • SpaceMonkey 5.2.3.1.1
            24 October 2018 at 2:26 pm

            And he likes to tell us why. His vocabulary is so limited we’re just about able to play Simple Soimon Bingo.

      • ianmac 5.2.4
        24 October 2018 at 2:00 pm

        And No Rght Turn is pretty suspicious too:
        “”Simon Bridges is staying tight-lipped on whether the National Party was involved in Jami-Lee Ross being sent to a mental health facility over the weekend.

        “I’m not going to comment on the details, and I’ll tell you why: I only learnt about it after the event,” Mr Bridges told The AM Show on Wednesday.

        “I have some second hand accounts of what has happened, but the reality is I don’t know for sure, so I’m not going to engage in that.”

        The idea of a political party weaponising mental health and engaging in Soviet-style tactics to silence their critics is one that most kiwis would find utterly abhorrent. Given how damaging the allegation of National involvement is, if Bridges could truthfully deny it, he would. The fact that he refused to speaks volumes.”
        http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2018/10/an-admisison-of-guilt.html

        • SpaceMonkey 5.2.4.1
          24 October 2018 at 2:30 pm

          “The fact that he refused to speak volumes”.

          Yep… sometimes silence shouts louder. National are in this up to their necks. From a political management perspective it’s been a clusterfuck from the beginning… with no end in sight. Bridges days as National Party leader are definitely numbered.

  6. Ed 6
    24 October 2018 at 7:37 am

    Simon’s new line.

    I did everything right last week.

    Surely a half decent interviewer would challenge that ridiculous statement.
    Ryan Bridges on the AM show failed to.

    Does anyone need further proof of the incompetence and bias inherent in the corporate media?

    • patricia bremner 6.1
      24 October 2018 at 7:50 am

      Don’t worry Ed, only 7% believed him.

    • Gabby 6.2
      24 October 2018 at 11:05 am

      Soozie tried quite hard to get a straight answer on the medical info thing, but Bodges not interested in sharing on that.

      • dV 6.2.1
        24 October 2018 at 11:08 am

        So that would be yes then.

      • veutoviper 6.2.2
        24 October 2018 at 11:32 am

        Bridges was madly trying to cover himself legally was what he was doing – of course IMHO.

        He had obviously worked out his script and sticking to it relentlessly, both on the RNZ interview and, it seems, his other morning media rounds.

        The link to the RNZ Morning Report interview with Suzie Ferguson is below at 10.1.

        Suzie was pretty well prepared for that interview – one of her better ones.

  7. Cinny 7
    24 October 2018 at 7:53 am

    Hey Ed, was thinking about you the other day, did you watch The Listening Post this weekend?

    It was about climate change and the media, really informative episode and backs up what you’ve been sharing on here.

    https://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/listeningpost/2018/10/media-climate-change-total-overhaul-181020072147408.html

  8. Observer Tokoroa 8
    24 October 2018 at 7:59 am

    Helping Paula

    It seems that merciless Paula has somehow or other been shocked by a married individual being “inappropriate” sexually. Sex, it seems, is plentiful within National.

    Apart from Four or more, Simon claims that 15 women have turned to him about the excessive exuberance of one former National MP. Fortunately, he has been sacked from Caucus for having so much sex. And too much knowledge.

    With such a load, it would be good for National if their supporters volunteered to keep logs of the sexual activity of the National politicians and Staff for and on behalf of Paula.

    Mrs Boag might usefully assist Paula in tracking the sex trail of National.

  9. Philj 9
    24 October 2018 at 8:11 am

    On RNZ, Jim Mora’s panel on Chinese influence, Professor Chris Gallavin says ” There’s not actually evidence of widespread Chinese manipulation at least overt in New Zealand’s political system “. Another quote from Chris Gallavin ” if I was giving $100000 I would say how about another candidate for my special group” !! And fellow panelist, sensible sentencing’s Ruth Money, agrees. And Jim moves right on along. Pay to play is acceptable and is of no concern. Wow.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/thepanel/audio/2018667992/the-panel-with-ruth-money-and-chris-gallavin-part-1

    • Ed 9.1
      24 October 2018 at 9:15 am

      Mora’s panel is usually the font of all ignorance.

    • Draco T Bastard 9.2
      24 October 2018 at 12:24 pm

      ” There’s not actually evidence of widespread Chinese manipulation at least overt in New Zealand’s political system “. Another quote from Chris Gallavin ”

      Of course, the covert influence is a much greater problem.

      And members of the CCP giving donations to a NZ political party is overt influence buying.

  11. The Chairman 11
    24 October 2018 at 8:51 am

    What would it cost the taxpayer to fund general elections in NZ?

    A back-of-the-envelope calculation would be around 10 million (that’s more than the top 4 parties attained in donations last election) every 3 years.

    Roughly equating to around just over a mere dollar a year per taxpayer.

    Therefore, the public cost of keeping financial influence out of our elections would be minimal.

    Jacinda says she’s not sure public funded elections are what the public want, thus if it’s something you want, it’s time to make some noise.

    Anyone know if any polls have been done on the matter?

    • BM 11.1
      24 October 2018 at 9:09 am

      How do new political parties emerge?

      • The Chairman 11.1.1
        24 October 2018 at 9:25 am

        They could apply for funding.

        • BM 11.1.1.1
          24 October 2018 at 10:38 am

          Yeah, and they’d receive fuck all and go nowhere.

          This sounds like a system to cement the status quo, surprised you left wingers would support such an undemocratic idea.

          Fair easier is just to make every donation public, if people don’t like that, don’t donate.

          • SaveNZ 11.1.1.1.1
            24 October 2018 at 2:50 pm

            Or you can donate and surprise surprise and under friends with benefits you get lucrative contract running a Nuie hotel or a list MP job! Marvellous!

            • BM 11.1.1.1.1.1
              24 October 2018 at 3:09 pm

              Or travelling to the UN as the PMs own personal film crew or having ocean sanctuaries canned or lucrative tax breaks for good looking horses.

              As for the Nuie hotel comment that’s what got Andrew Little in a pile of shit.

      • KJT 11.1.2
        24 October 2018 at 9:34 am

        Funding on the basis of audited paid up, individual, members. With a limit on membership fees.

        A requirement for candidate selection and policy formation to be Democratic, as part of the criteria to receive funding.

        No funding from organisations allowed once a party is registered.

        However, as I have said, real Democracy reduces the power of politicians and makes parties and funding less important.

        • Gabby 11.1.2.1
          24 October 2018 at 11:02 am

          You can see how that might lead to a bunch of nonparties who by coincidence share many of the views of parties springing up and ‘contributing to the conversation’ right? They could fundraise all they liked.

        • Carolyn_Nth 11.1.2.2
          24 October 2018 at 4:09 pm

          And with less funding, an end to sophisticated videos and strategies that are more spin and propaganda than informative.

    • Stuart Munro 11.2
      24 October 2018 at 9:32 am

      The problem is that parties have no true legitimacy within a democratic system. They represent a capture of the people’s franchise, which they then divert to their own ends, or in the case of the Gnats, raffle off to the highest bidder.

      There need to be rigorous performance standards before parties receive public funding. It might be better just to increase penalties and monitoring of political donations so that abuse attracts hard jail time or deportation.

      • Draco T Bastard 11.2.1
        24 October 2018 at 12:28 pm

        The problem is that parties have no true legitimacy within a democratic system.

        Actually, it’s that representatives have no true legitimacy within a democracy.

        • Stuart Munro 11.2.1.1
          24 October 2018 at 12:40 pm

          Only because they don’t do what they’re paid and sworn to do.

          • Draco T Bastard 11.2.1.1.1
            24 October 2018 at 2:02 pm

            Wrong. IN NZ MPs are specifically legislated to do what they want and not necessarily what their electorate wants. Hence we get FTAs and other policies that contradict what the people want and benefit only the rich.

            • Stuart Munro 11.2.1.1.1.1
              24 October 2018 at 2:13 pm

              Dammit you’re right! What a pathetic oath:

              “I, [name], swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Her heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.”

              Even comedians know that:

              Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

      • alwyn 11.2.2
        24 October 2018 at 5:35 pm

        “There need to be rigorous performance standards before parties receive public funding”.
        I’ll bet that if we gave you the job of enforcing that the only party who would qualify would be your beloved Greens.
        Right?
        As for deportation. Who are you going to deport?
        You do realise you can’t deport New Zealand citizens I assume?

        • Stuart Munro 11.2.2.1
          24 October 2018 at 5:48 pm

          I wouldn’t count on the Greens making it either Alwyn. But at least they’re mens sana in corpore sano.

          But the scumbags and deadwood would certainly have to wake up their ideas.

          As for deportation – that would be a possible penalty for both ends of a political corruption equation. It might give ambitious newcomers pause.

    • SaveNZ 11.3
      24 October 2018 at 9:38 am

      @The Chairman +1

      Was thinking similar thoughts. Public should be funding general election spending and I think a ban on all political donations as well!

      $10 million is nothing every 3 years! The America’s cup is costing around 200 million and corporate welfare galore at every opportunity costing tens if not hundreds of millions and nobody seems to care…

      It would be a tiny amount of public money to spend to preserve democracy and equality in NZ.

      Blaming the public for not bringing it in sounds like afake discourse that the public will not like it, I think in context of what is already being spent on unnecessary corporate welfare it’s nothing.

      Now is the time for Labour led government to to do it while they are on top of the polls in time for next election.

      Of course all the middle men, scammers, MSM and those on the trough getting lucrative $$$$ being in that advertising/promotions/dirty politics will not like it.

      Heard that a political billboard was costing $400 p/w in Auckland in a prime spot – it’s like the cost of rent of an entire property!!! (5 years ago). Crazy!

      • Draco T Bastard 11.3.1
        24 October 2018 at 12:29 pm

        Public should be funding general election spending and I think a ban on all political donations as well!

        $10 million is nothing every 3 years!

        Parties exist between elections as well.

        • SaveNZ 11.3.1.1
          24 October 2018 at 2:53 pm

          And they get a salary job as MP’s so all good! Back to the old days where they rented church halls and cleaned up themselves…if true… aka that recollection of Mike Moore. Might be good for them to know the price of real estate and milk these days.

          • Draco T Bastard 11.3.1.1.1
            24 October 2018 at 4:03 pm

            And they get a salary job as MP’s so all good!

            Most of them don’t and a party is not MP anyway. In fact, that simple statement of yours suggests we should have MPs in positions of power for life as the only people who would be able to run for election would be the sitting MPs.

            • SaveNZ 11.3.1.1.1.1
              24 October 2018 at 6:46 pm

              Volunteers would be needed, would be lovely then only dedicated people and not PR hounds would be around the party. Or they spend their million dollars wisely.

    • Dukeofurl 11.4
      24 October 2018 at 10:16 am

      We do fund elections now . well for TV broadcasting we do and used to be radio time as well but that is now open slather for party to choose.

      For 2017 the total came to $ 4,145,750 incl GST. including some very very minor parties.
      https://www.elections.org.nz/events/2017-general-election/2017-parties-candidates-and-third-parties/broadcasting-allocation-2017

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 11.5
      24 October 2018 at 4:14 pm

      Excellent idea. I think Ardern is wrong on this and she should take leadership and do the right thing (not guess at what the public might ‘want’ instead)

  12. Ed 12
    24 October 2018 at 9:22 am

    Bomber Bradbury is spot on here.

    “There are so many questions that have yet to be answered or even asked.

    The way the National Party leadership thinks about ethnic diversity
    The level of influence over our largest political party from China.
    Whether donations need to be publicly funded.
    Why and how the National Party promoted JLR despite harassment and bullying allegations.
    Is it appropriate for media to publish damning accusations from anonymous sources?
    What else was going to be revealed inside National?
    How safe are the safeguards when suddenly sanctioning a sitting Member of Parliament into mental health care when they are threatening to destabilise a Party.
    How do we treat mental health in the public sphere without triggering or being censored by triggering
    Dragging families into political wars seems unnecessarily harmful
    How do we debate and disagree with one another without reducing it to vitriol?”

    Many of these questions are worthy of threads on this site.

  13. joe90 13
    24 October 2018 at 9:23 am

    New directive from the Kremlin: nothing to see here, move along.

    Speaking on Tuesday, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov refused to comment on the details of the case, saying only that “one needs to have verified information about the incident to react to it.”

    He added that Russia acknowledges Saudi Arabia’s official statement in which it said the royal family had no connection to the killing.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/jamal-khashoggi-russia-putin-saudi-arabia-murder-latest-turkey-consulate-istanbul-a8597646.html

  14. Morrissey 14
    24 October 2018 at 9:28 am

    An O.B.N. has to be awarded to these outstanding journalists
    Breakfast, TVNZ1, Wednesday 24 October 2018, 6:57 a.m.

    grovel n. 1 to behave with too much respect towards someone to show that you are very eager to please them; 2 to lie facing the ground, esp. in fear, or to behave toward someone in a way that shows that you are small and unimportant and the other person is powerful (see also: arse-licker, bow and scrape, brown-nose, crawl, flatter, servility, slobber over)

    HAYLEY HOLT: The Duke and Duchess of Sussex have DAZZLED Suva!

    NICOLE BREMNER: Well everybody’s talking about the dress! But there are other things….

    She digresses for a moment, and dutifully talks about something the Big H is apparently doing to “raise awareness of climate change.”

    HAYLEY HOLT: Okay, that’s that. What about the dress?

    JACK TAME: [indulgently] Hur hur hur.

    Nicole Bremner gushes about the Prince drinking kava and walking around a supermarket, then delivers her peroration….

    NICOLE BREMNER: It was SO well received! He’s SO popular here!

    HAYLEY HOLT: When I go walkabouts in the supermarket in Fiji, nobody follows ME around.

    JACK TAME: It’s actually a hard life. I know they’ve got more money than us, but….

    HAYLEY HOLT: Nice dresses!

    ad nauseam…

    https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2018/05/murdering-rich-bastard-condemned-around.html

    https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-03-10-2018/#comment-1531438

  15. Bill 15
    24 October 2018 at 9:38 am

    And so given the choice between liberal bullshit and liberal bullshit, pollsters have found that people will choose liberal bullshit.

    And some people reckon we should be a bit happy and hopeful that more people would prefer to vote for “this” liberal bullshit over “that” liberal bullshit given the choice is between liberal bullshit and liberal bullshit.

    Nek minute they’ll be hanging the bunting and throwing a street party in celebration of liberal bullshit gathering more general election votes than liberal bullshit.

    It’s not just me, right?

    I mean, I did wake up into the real world this morning to be confronted with people promoting and spouting stuff that more appropriately belongs in some weird twilight zone, alternate reality or parallel universe, yes? Or am I still dreaming vaguely disturbing dreams?

  16. marty mars 16
    24 October 2018 at 9:44 am

    The migrant caravan heading to the border…

    “A row raging over the migrant caravan travelling towards the United States is being fuelled by misinformation and false statements online.”

    Fake news follows migrant caravan’s journey north – http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-45951102

    • greywarshark 16.1
      24 October 2018 at 10:01 am

      On Wednesday, Republican congressman Matt Gaetz tweeted a video he said showed Hondurans being paid to join the migrant caravan.

      Billionaire philanthropist George Soros, who is something of a pantomime villain in the eyes of many on the right, might be behind the payments, Gaetz suggested.

      I suggest that this misinformation about Soros, is similar to the misinformation about the previous President Barak Obama not being a citizen.

      The malicious appealing to the credulous and determinedly ignorant. That is always a problem in a democratic country which is under neo lib control, as neo lib says that people as a mass, who have full information given to them before making decisions, will make the best decisions. What a dream theory!

  17. marty mars 17
    24 October 2018 at 9:52 am

    Mike Pence makes t.rump look smart.

    “US Vice-President Mike Pence today declined to rule out the idea of deploying nuclear weapons in space.

    He said the current ban on their use is “in the interest of every nation” but the issue should be decided on “the principle that peace comes through strength”.”

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12147693

    Nukes in space??? ffs haven’t we got enough shit to deal with. Go to hell warmongers.

    • joe90 17.1
      24 October 2018 at 10:39 am

      It gets worse, Marty.

      Reagan and Gorbachev negotiated the INF Treaty because they had the nous to know a nuclear war must never be fought because it couldn’t be won.

      Now, rather than negotiations to enforce the treaty, Russia gets to keep the missiles it’s amassed violating the treaty, Western Europeans will have more pointed at them, the US will start building more, and John Bolton will have the hardware for his war in the South China sea.

      The US will withdraw from a landmark nuclear weapons treaty with Russia, President Donald Trump has confirmed.

      Speaking to reporters, Mr Trump said Russia had “violated” the 1987 Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces (INF) treaty.

      The deal banned ground-launched medium-range missiles, with a range of between 500 and 5,500km (310-3,400 miles).

      The US would not let Russia “go out and do weapons [while] we’re not allowed to”, Mr Trump said.

      “I don’t know why President [Barack] Obama didn’t negotiate or pull out,” the president said after a campaign rally in Nevada. “They’ve been violating it for many years.”

      https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45930206

    • Tony Veitch [not etc.] 17.2
      24 October 2018 at 10:49 am

      Shades of ‘The Day of the Triffids!’

      • marty mars 17.2.1
        24 October 2018 at 11:11 am

        I think they’ve watched too many bond movies. For simpletons like them it’s all crayon drawings and linear progressions. For adults it’s 3d models and tapestries of interconnectedness.

      • Stunned Mullet 17.2.2
        24 October 2018 at 11:27 am

        I welcome our Triffid overlords.

        • marty mars 17.2.2.1
          24 October 2018 at 12:17 pm

          Yes they are green and mean. The vegans will be beside themselves when the plants eat them first as payback.

          • veutoviper 17.2.2.1.1
            24 October 2018 at 1:01 pm

            But do triffids need vitamin B12? Because the vegans are probably vitamin B12 deficient.

            The one here never thanked me for the links to the UK Vegan Society website on ways to avoid B12 deficiency that I posted here for him a few weeks ago. Oh well …

    • McFlock 17.3
      24 October 2018 at 12:26 pm

      A nuclear sword of Damocles hanging over our heads would be a first strike weapon. That’s why they banned them: one twitch, game over.

  18. Dennis Frank 18
    24 October 2018 at 10:19 am

    “Mr Ross was taken into a mental health facility at the weekend, but he has now left hospital and is now staying with a friend. One of Mr Ross’ supporters – who doesn’t want to be named – has told RNZ the Botany MP has been discharged and is no longer in Auckland.” https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018668007/female-mp-sent-abusive-text-to-jami-lee-ross

    Gee whiz. So he wasn’t held for the five-day evaluation period after all. I thought it was mandatory. Can the mental health experts resident here clarify this?

    Does it mean the psychiatrist doing the diagnosis decided that he was so obviously sane that there was no point in continuing?

    In which case, will this statement be forthcoming from the National Party: “Obviously we got it wrong, and those allegations of JLR were not due to his lack of mental health. We congratulate him for his sterling performance under intense pressure, and will give serious consideration to the possibility of revoking his expulsion.”

    • JohnSelway 18.1
      24 October 2018 at 10:31 am

      Your knowledge on complexities of mental health is staggeringly ignorant.

      Firstly – no one adjudicates anyone as “sane”, “not sane”. That sort of outdated thinking creates the stigma people with mental health issues try desperately to avoid.

      Secondly – there is no “mandatory” sectioning. I was released once after 8 hours but into outpatient care which Ross will no doubt be in.

      Thirdly – You consistently seem to doubt that there was anything wrong with Ross but given the most recent news states he is following a mental health plan, has been released into the care of a friend and has made no statement about the travesty of being put away shows you don’t seem to actually know anything at all.

      Give it a rest – you’re embarrassing yourself. It is people like you that make mental health sufferers feel smaller than they already do. Did you even read that fantastic piece from The Spinoff? I would have thought you might learn something from it

      • Dennis Frank 18.1.1
        24 October 2018 at 11:16 am

        Yeah, I did. My reference to mandatory was in regard to the five-day evaluation period, as I said. Not sectioning as a strategy. It would help if you could clarify that point. And I don’t doubt that Ross had a breakdown – obviously he did! The question is what has the diagnosis been?

        Using privacy law to prevent that emerging into public life allows his viability as a whistle-blower to be considered suspect. That’s unfair to him. Anyone is liable to crack under pressure. He was under extremely high pressure. Doesn’t mean he loses viability as a whistle-blower unless he is diagnosed as psychotic or delusional or whatever bullshit technical terms the pc brigade currently use.

        As a player in the political game at the top level Ross deserves respect for what he has achieved. As a whistle-blower, he commands moral authority. Those who seek to use privacy legislation to defeat him deserve to become the target of anyone who wants to defend our democracy.

        • JohnSelway 18.1.1.1
          24 October 2018 at 11:20 am

          “The question is what has the diagnosis been?”

          None of your business is the answer to that one.

          • Dennis Frank 18.1.1.1.1
            24 October 2018 at 11:39 am

            So you think evasion of the key points is a good idea. Can’t see anyone being impressed by that. Taking refuge in privacy law is a loser’s strategy. The public interest will prevail.

            • JohnSelway 18.1.1.1.1.1
              24 October 2018 at 11:51 am

              No, it’s none of your business. Someones personal medical diagnosis is their business, not anyone else’s and certainly not yours.

              • Dennis Frank …
                24 October 2018 at 11:57 am

                Yes, I understand why you keep hammering this, as if privacy law alone is relevant to his situation. All I’ve been trying to do is alert you to the relevance of civil rights law in general, and our whistle-blower legislation in particular. Just because his lawyer hasn’t yet activated it doesn’t give you a realistic basis to discount it. Denial of reality is never a good idea.

            • veutoviper 18.1.1.1.1.2
              24 October 2018 at 11:56 am

              NO NO NO Dennis. Leave it FGS. Any diagnosis made (and I doubt that a definitive one has been made as this usually takes much more time that a day or so) is Ross’ business only UNLESS he chooses to divulge it. This is a fundamental principle under both privacy and other medical information-related law.

              It is NOT evasion, nor a loser’s strategy. Nor does his lawyer have to activate anything to bring the realities into play.

              • Dennis Frank …
                24 October 2018 at 12:06 pm

                That’s actually my concern. We haven’t been told why he was released prematurely. Use of the privacy law to keep the public in the dark is not a good idea in respect to a politician. We are entirely within our rights to speculate that the premature release was due to his obvious sanity.

                We haven’t been told why he was released, or if a diagnosis was actually put onto a documentary record. His viability to continue as a parliamentarian is at stake. How can he do so if the authorities continue to allow the Nats to get away with discrediting him for political gain? Use of the privacy law to do this is morally corrupt. The integrity of our democracy is threatened by how the authorities are using it!

                • marty mars …
                  24 October 2018 at 12:14 pm

                  You’re acting like a spoiled brat Dennis. It will come out and the bits made public will become known. You acknowledge you know little about this subject – pity the awareness to know the next step is missing and it isn’t posting deliberate misinformation and speculation.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    24 October 2018 at 1:15 pm

                    Your denial of his whistleblower status suggests you’re out of your depth on this issue, Marty. Best to get real. Misrepresenting my stance & motivation won’t help with that! I have not acknowledged that I know little about the subject – just the technical side of it around sectioning. That’s why I’m calling for more light on the subject.

                    • solkta …
                      24 October 2018 at 1:18 pm

                      I have not acknowledged that I know little about the subject

                      Well you really really should.

                    • marty mars …
                      24 October 2018 at 1:29 pm

                      Well you keep making statements that are meaningless and display very poor knowledge. In your paddling pool i’m gratefully out of my depth.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    24 October 2018 at 1:33 pm

                    Generally speaking, it’s best to tell the truth. Having followed a learning curve on that as a child, I tend to operate accordingly. Speaking truth to power (such as mental health authorities and those using them for political purposes) is a social necessity. I hope you both learn that one day…

                • veutoviper …
                  24 October 2018 at 12:34 pm

                  Dennis, I can only assume you have no hands on experience with the mental health system – at least recently.

                  JLR’s experience is usual, not exceptional. In other words, because of underfunding, lack of staff and facilities etc etc, it is in – and out as quickly as possible. People are lucky to get into a facility even for a couple of days – although ‘lucky’ is definitely not the appropriate word.

                  In addition, mental health, sanity etc is not a matter of black or white – it is a plethora of shades of grey and that is a massive understatement. As a result, diagnosis can take considerable time and multiple episodes. It is not like a case of measles where the spots immediately identify what it is.

                  I understand what you are getting at in your second paragraph but you are going at it from a wrong perspective IMO – ie you are approaching it from a personal perspective purely related to JLR’s situation rather than from a much bigger/wider perspective of constitutional issues and Westminister based parliamentary practice and precedent.

                  I have absolutely no doubts that a lot is going on behind the scenes in getting legal advice (possibly including from overseas) on these related constitutional matters, parliamentary matters and precedent etc – probably by the Speaker and the Clerk of the House’s office to ensure that JLR’s rights as a duly elected MP (now an independent one) and the integrity of our democracy is not threatened.

                  The role and responsibilities of the Speaker are fundamental and critical to ensuring that both JLR’s rights as a parliamentarian and the integrity of our Parliament are preserved. In other words, in a similar way that the Speaker went ahead quietly with an investigation to ensure that his office, Parliamentary Service etc were not involved in the leak of Bridges’ expenses.

                  In terms of the Nats, IMO Bridges has also had legal advice in the last few days (hence the silence) and is now squirming and trying to deny all responsibility etc, etc. But the reality he and they are now bit players but nevertheless still responsible for their actions to date.

                  The above is not my best work, but I hope you get what I am saying.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    24 October 2018 at 1:22 pm

                    Just got in from weeding the garden, thanks for explaining your view, nothing there I need to take issue with. I’ve been trying to elucidate the big picture for the benefit of all. Respondents making it into a binary wrong/right thing can help with that, but usually doesn’t.

                    This bit: “you are approaching it from a personal perspective purely related to JLR’s situation rather than from a much bigger/wider perspective of constitutional issues and Westminister based parliamentary practice and precedent.” I’m actually trying to reconcile both into an holistic view.

                    I agree that the Speaker’s next move is crucial. Unfortunately Mallard has never amounted to much apart from shrewd & cunning, so I hope he gets excellent public service advice!

                • JohnSelway …
                  24 October 2018 at 12:47 pm

                  We haven’t been told why he was released or his diagnosis because it isn’t any of our business. It’s between Ross and his medical team. That’s it.

                  There really isn’t anything else.

                  • veutoviper …
                    24 October 2018 at 1:13 pm

                    Agreed, John, except for your last sentence.

                    I now see (or think I may see!) where Dennis is coming from in the wider context – and it is in my main/career area of knowledge and experience. I was a Wellington based public servant, and worked in areas with direct interaction etc with Parliament and did a number of secondments working in Parliament in Ministers’ offices, for Select Committees etc. Hence my badly written reply to him above at 12.34pm. But the sun is trying to break through here in Wellington so time out coming up. Pace yourself too, e hoa.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    24 October 2018 at 1:27 pm

                    I won’t argue that point any further with you, John. I have no wish to spoil your day. To realise that my view is widely held, I suggest you read both Chris Trotter’s take, and the comments below it, here: https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/10/23/missing/

                    • JohnSelway …
                      24 October 2018 at 1:34 pm

                      A view being widely held means nothing. Lots of people are wrong about many things. It’s meaningless

                    • veutoviper …
                      24 October 2018 at 1:38 pm

                      I think I will start calling you “Last word Dennis”!

                      Actually you are by no means the only one – eg “Last word D…….l”.

                      Perhaps you two Ds should have a “duel at dawn” …. – or should that be “dicks at dawn”?

                      The oversized heads of you both would not make a pistol duel aimed at heads very exciting.

                      ROFL

        • marty mars 18.1.1.2
          24 October 2018 at 11:24 am

          He’s not a whistleblower Dennis. He disclosed stuff that he was party to and contributed to. There are other terms for that. The police are STILL investigating the FACTS. In popular parlance – he knows where the bodies are (secrets) because he helped put them there.

        • Rosemary McDonald 18.1.1.3
          24 October 2018 at 11:28 am

          “As a player in the political game at the top level Ross deserves respect for what he has achieved.”

          Thanks, Dennis Frank, for the belly laugh of the day. Nah, the year.

          (I can misinterpret written tone…maybe you are being sarcastic? )

          Okay, back down my rabbit hole.

          • Dennis Frank 18.1.1.3.1
            24 October 2018 at 11:36 am

            Just acknowledging both sides of the story, Rosemary, it’s a question of balance. I often see things how you are seeing them, so I share that view, but there’s an issue of fairness here.

    • Cinny 18.2
      24 October 2018 at 10:40 am

      Am no expert but it is my understanding that a person can be discharged as long as there is a health care plan in place and there is someone to help look after them/support them. Along with being ‘signed off’ by the health professionals.

      Such a situation is helpful, not only for ‘freeing up beds’ but also for the concerned, as some find healing re mental health more beneficial away from a ‘hospital’ or ‘big city’ environment. And having a familiar face/trusted friend around/support structure is so very important. It appears all these measures are in place for jlr, as they should be.

      Did the nats play a part in his hospitalisation? bridges refuses to confirm this.

      • JohnSelway 18.2.1
        24 October 2018 at 10:42 am

        “Am no expert but it is my understanding that a person can be discharged as long as there is a health care plan in place and there is someone to help look after them/support them. Along with being ‘signed off’ by the health professionals.”

        100% correct.

        “Did the nats play a part in his hospitalisation? bridges refuses to confirm this.”

        If and when Ross wants to talk he’ll talk.

        • Anne 18.2.1.1
          24 October 2018 at 10:55 am

          “Did the nats play a part in his hospitalisation? bridges refuses to confirm this.”

          Likely someone connected to them did, but they may have had good reason to be concerned.

          If and when Ross wants to talk he’ll talk.

          Yes, and we should leave it at that.

          • JohnSelway 18.2.1.1.1
            24 October 2018 at 10:56 am

            “…but they may have had good reason to be concerned.”

            Well obviously they did because you don’t get a few nights under watch then an outpatient mental health plan unless something has gone very wrong.

            • Anne 18.2.1.1.1.1
              24 October 2018 at 10:59 am

              Yes. I’m agreeing with both your comments.

              • JohnSelway …
                24 October 2018 at 11:02 am

                I just hope for the best for him. He’ll always be in the public eye now as the guy who has a breakdown. We have come long way in treating the stigma of mental health (some more than others – without naming anyone) but it’ll always be following him around.

                • veutoviper …
                  24 October 2018 at 11:46 am

                  Well said, everyone from Cinny down. The process described is as I know it and have experienced it as a support person for a number of people in that situation.

                  As to wheither Bridges and/or the Nats played a part – Bridges’ avoidance tactics this morning suggest to me that they have been given legal advice to say nothing and do a ‘Sgt Schultz’.

      • Dukeofurl 18.2.2
        24 October 2018 at 5:40 pm

        Cinny you ask a good question
        ‘Did the nats play a part in his hospitalisation? bridges refuses to confirm this.’

        The nats have confirmed their part in a process- inspite of Ross not being part of national at the time.

        these are the partys spokesmans words
        “”That has included seeking advice from medical professionals and involving police wherever necessary to ensure support is made available to Mr Ross.”

        naturally we all know that his health is of no concern to the party that had already expelled him and why the party would involve the police can mean only one conclusion.

        • JohnSelway 18.2.2.1
          24 October 2018 at 5:42 pm

          “xpelled him and why the party would involve the police can mean only one conclusion.”

          Oh, you’re lying again. It has already been made clear to you that the police frequently attend mental health callouts – MP or no MP.

          Why do you keep lying?

    • marty mars 18.3
      24 October 2018 at 10:53 am

      Jeepers your listening and comprehension skills need an upgrade there Dennis. Too much whaleoil I’d say.

      • Dennis Frank 18.3.1
        24 October 2018 at 11:05 am

        😊 Even a little pollution can be too much, eh? Thing is, he’s throwing an interesting light on the situation in several respects. Lack of posturing evident.

        • marty mars 18.3.1.1
          24 October 2018 at 11:16 am

          To think he is doing anything for the benefit of Ross or anyone/thing other than his own agenda is cute.

          Too many gullible people out there – so soon they forget, so soon they embrace anthing if it fits what they already think.

          Might have to call you Darth Frank soon Dennis 😊

      • veutoviper 18.3.2
        24 October 2018 at 11:39 am

        I think it could be another substance starting with ‘w’ – one of our four letter words with two letters the same in it. LOL

        • Psych nurse 18.3.2.1
          24 October 2018 at 12:23 pm

          Looking at the events of tha weekend and short hospitalisation, I wouldn’t be surprized if there was another substance starting with P.

          • veutoviper 18.3.2.1.1
            24 October 2018 at 12:47 pm

            Who – Dennis? Don’t think so from what he has said in the past. LOL

            If you mean the other person, let’s not speculate.

    • ankerawshark 18.4
      24 October 2018 at 12:44 pm

      Dennis at 18. Yes my theory is that someone (likely National) applied to section him, but he didn’t meet criteria for the mental health act, but agreed to stay voluntarily from a clinical point of view for observation and maybe medication (e.g for sleep) and that would fit with Trevor Mallard saying he had received no notice of a member of parliament being sectioned………………………………….

      Unless he has been discharged on a community treatment order.

      • Dennis Frank 18.4.1
        24 October 2018 at 3:03 pm

        Thanks for that insight. Given that the powers that be are currently treating public concerns with contempt, all we can do is speculate. Some onsite here trying to act like brain police keep complaining that we ought not speculate, not honest enough to admit our right of free speech.

        I believe that the authorities have a duty to the public. Without a free flow of information, democracy becomes dysfunctional. Informing us of the truth about JLR’s status is essential. Collusion in the cover-up is untenable, and those here advocating it ought to be ashamed of themselves. Morality 1.01 – but of course pc drones cannot grasp morality, too sophisticated a concept for them.

    • OnceWasTim 18.5
      24 October 2018 at 3:22 pm

      I’ve stayed out of this whole debate @Dennis (re mental health) – my former wife having just resigned from her position dealing with it all.
      It strikes me though that the speculators should stop speculating – at least until a few more days have elapsed – and others should realise that they might not be the only gay in the village.

      • Dennis Frank 18.5.1
        24 October 2018 at 4:02 pm

        Fair enough, but speculation need not be merely idle. When it is driven by perception of the use of privacy law as cover-up for wrong-doing, we need to support the whistleblower and protect the public interest. Here’s how No Right Turn addresses that:

        “The idea of a political party weaponising mental health and engaging in Soviet-style tactics to silence their critics is one that most kiwis would find utterly abhorrent. Given how damaging the allegation of National involvement is, if Bridges could truthfully deny it, he would. The fact that he refused to speaks volumes.”

        Silence as a political strategy, backed up by privacy law. If Mitchell called the cops on Bridges, for the purpose of sectioning Ross, we can see why SB refrains.

        • solkta 18.5.1.1
          24 October 2018 at 4:06 pm

          Privacy laws are not being used to cover anything up. Ross can release that information any time he wishes.

          • Dennis Frank 18.5.1.1.1
            24 October 2018 at 4:29 pm

            He can only do so if the authorities permit that. We have yet to be informed that he has regained possession of his cellphone. We have yet to be informed that he has been authorised to use it in a political context, because it is now safe for him to do so. Surely a decision that he is once again able to withstand the effects of political activity without triggering another breakdown has to be made by whoever examined him – that seems an essential precursor to him being able to release that information.

            • JohnSelway 18.5.1.1.1.1
              24 October 2018 at 4:31 pm

              “He can only do so if the authorities permit that.”

              No Ross can release any details at his pleasure.

              How many times do you have to be told the same thing. JLR’s medical information is his to share if and when he is ready. Not because you decide – he decides and only he decides.

              JLR’s decision to speak about or not, not yours.

            • Dukeofurl 18.5.1.1.1.2
              24 October 2018 at 5:34 pm

              Patients are entitled to visitors and phone calls while detained unless medical reasons prevent it.

              Any idiot can tell hes going to speak when hes good and ready

              • Dennis Frank …
                24 October 2018 at 5:45 pm

                Yes, precisely what I was trying to explain to John. If he’s not yet ready, due to being instructed to avoid political activity for a while, we just have to wait. We still don’t know if his cellphone has been returned to him. We still don’t know if it was confiscated, and by whom. And, if so, whether it was sanitised, files copied, files deleted…

                • JohnSelway …
                  24 October 2018 at 5:47 pm

                  And you may never know because Ross might never want to talk about it ever again.

                  Then how will you sleep at night?

                  It is kind of you to pretty much demand Ross satisfy your own curiosity and fevered conspiracy dreams despite the fact this was probably extremely traumatic for him and will forever brandish him with the stigma of being mentally unwell but hey, as long as you get closure fuck him right.

                  Asshole

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    24 October 2018 at 5:53 pm

                    So you resort to abuse to demonstrate that you can no longer cope with reasoning. Dunno why you think it’s all about me. It’s actually all about the public interest and JLR’s rights as a whistleblower. Try to learn this, it will help you to grasp what’s actually happening.

                    • JohnSelway …
                      24 October 2018 at 5:58 pm

                      A. Ross’s medical history is not the public interest.

                      B. He has all the same rights he used to have. If Ross wants to talk he’ll talk.

                      C. Nothing is stopping him from being a whistle blower.

                      What are you misunderstanding? What part of A, B or C do you misunderstand?

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      24 October 2018 at 6:31 pm

                      A, b & c do not fully define the situation. One must factor in all the other relevant factors. I get that you don’t want to, but it really would be a good idea to do so eventually…

                    • JohnSelway …
                      24 October 2018 at 6:39 pm

                      No, what I have laid out is all there is to it. There are no other factors. He has all the same rights he used to have. If Ross wants to talk he’ll talk.

                      What do you misunderstand?

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      25 October 2018 at 4:45 am

                      He only regains his ability to act as a political agent again when released under no medical conditions or strictures. If so, the question becomes whether he is impaired due to any medication he is required to take. That too could prevent exercise of agency.

                      Until we know if either situation applies, we cannot reasonably assume he has full agency to be a whistleblower again. These are the crucial factors you keep ignoring.

            • solkta 18.5.1.1.1.3
              24 October 2018 at 6:07 pm

              He can only do so if the authorities permit that.

              What utter bullshit. All he has do do to release that information is say to his lawyer “release that information”.

              • Dennis Frank …
                24 October 2018 at 6:27 pm

                So you aren’t reading what I’ve already written. We do not know if he is required to operate under instructions from the authorities. His release could be conditional on use of limited agency: he may have signed an agreement not to engage in political activity for his own protection. We lack any reassurance that he has fully regained autonomy.

                So your assumption that he is once again an active agent is flawed. You aren’t thinking things through properly. Not bullshit. Reality. He may also be under an ongoing sedation regime. Another relevant factor that would limit his agency if it applies.

                • JohnSelway …
                  24 October 2018 at 6:38 pm

                  “So you aren’t reading what I’ve already written. We do not know if he is required to operate under instructions from the authorities. His release could be conditional on use of limited agency: he may have signed an agreement not to engage in political activity for his own protection. We lack any reassurance that he has fully regained autonomy.”

                  None of that is true. No one can stop him discussing his own health, what he was diagnosed with, how it happened and why. That he doesn’t just shows he probably doesn’t want to have to relive what was probably the most traumatic experience of his life.

                  What do you not understand?

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    25 October 2018 at 4:38 am

                    You are not in the position to know, so why are you trying to get away with making a false assertion. You don’t realise that it’s deceit?

                    • JohnSelway …
                      25 October 2018 at 5:30 am

                      It’s not assertion. Nothing can stop Riss talking about his own medical issues. Nothing. Fact

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      25 October 2018 at 5:41 am

                      You are not privy to his actual circumstances. None of us are. You keep on assuming that your personal experience as a private citizen applies to him. It does not. He’s a politician and whistleblower. I suggest you factor in these reasons why he cannot be viewed as a private citizen.

                    • JohnSelway …
                      25 October 2018 at 6:41 am

                      There are no laws to stop him saying what he wants.

                      So you’re wrong

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      25 October 2018 at 6:49 am

                      You’re wrong. It’s his situation that has been preventing him from saying anything. Let’s hope that changes soon!

                    • JohnSelway …
                      25 October 2018 at 7:01 am

                      No, Dennis. Ross is currently a free citizen. He can speak to freely to whomever he wants

                    • Ed …
                      25 October 2018 at 7:03 am

                      John life isn’t that simple.
                      There are complexities here.

                • solkta …
                  24 October 2018 at 6:45 pm

                  Medical doctors cannot stop him from instructing his lawyer to release the details. I think on this matter i have heard you speak the biggest load of crap of all your time on here. Even more so, maybe, than blaming feminists for MP perks.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    25 October 2018 at 4:35 am

                    Don’t blame me for you inability to get your head around the situation. I’ve already explained that he can’t instruct his lawyer to do something political if he has accepted medical advice that engaging politics again at this time is likely to provoke another breakdown. This is such a simple point that you ought to be able to understand it.

                    • JohnSelway …
                      25 October 2018 at 5:32 am

                      He can instruct his lawyer to do anything within the law and no law says he can’t release information. He may have received advice but he doesn’t have to take it.

                      You’re making things up

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      25 October 2018 at 5:46 am

                      Not making anything up. Just trying to help you realise there’s an alternative explanation that fits the facts, puzzled that you seem stuck on denying it. Why the need to be so irrational?

                      We don’t yet know that he is operating free of medical constraints. That’s the fact. Remaining in denial of it is pointless.

                    • JohnSelway …
                      25 October 2018 at 6:43 am

                      No one can place restraints on him unless someone has a protection order but that we’d know about.

                      You’re making things up

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      25 October 2018 at 6:52 am

                      The fact is, sectioning incapacitated him. Your persistent denial of the fact is preventing you from getting a grip on reality. Not good.

                    • JohnSelway …
                      25 October 2018 at 6:59 am

                      Being sectioned does not mean he cannot make a statement through a third party unless under very rare circumstances. But this is a moot point as he is now free and free to move where he wants and speak to who he pleases.

                      That’s a fact

                    • Ed …
                      25 October 2018 at 7:05 am

                      John you are portraying this in far too simplistic a way.
                      They are layers here….

                    • JohnSelway …
                      25 October 2018 at 7:10 am

                      Not simplistically, correctly.

                    • solkta …
                      25 October 2018 at 7:12 am

                      You are the one who does not understand the situation. You are just being a fuckwit so i will leave it there.

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      25 October 2018 at 7:32 am

                      Huh, so you’re someone else feeling the need to be abusive as the result of being unable to cope with reality. Grow up.

                    • solkta …
                      25 October 2018 at 7:39 am

                      The only reality here is that you have been prattling the same shit for days on a subject you know nothing about with scenarios that are not legally possible while refusing to listen to anybody with some actual knowledge. Your rantings are so daft that even Ed is agreeing with you.

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      25 October 2018 at 7:47 am

                      After saying you’ll leave it there, you fail at that too. Wild assertions are no way to make a positive contribution to political discourse, and personalised abuse is even worse. Get a life.

                • JohnSelway …
                  24 October 2018 at 6:50 pm

                  So you are suggesting Ross has been put under sedation to stop him talking and/or he was released under the condition he not release information as it pertains to Bridges or National?

                  That’s straight bullshit. Unless seriously think National have corrupted the medical community. Will they stop at nothing?

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    25 October 2018 at 4:32 am

                    You don’t know, so why make such an assertion from a position of ignorance? Obviously plenty of people will suspect a compliant medical specialist will act in accord with National’s agenda. That kind of thing has been happening throughout history, doesn’t matter which country you look at. Entirely sensible grounds for public concern.

                    • JohnSelway …
                      25 October 2018 at 5:28 am

                      That’s just wild evidence free speculation

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      25 October 2018 at 5:37 am

                      It’s actually expression of concerns derived from pattern recognition. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

        • OnceWasTim 18.5.1.2
          24 October 2018 at 4:11 pm

          I’ll grant you that the ‘theory’ and processes in place for dealing with it all are legitimate areas for monitoring, and to question whether or not it’s all working as it should. (Shit happens and sometimes things go wrong – sometimes perhaps even intentionally, other times because of things like under-resourcing and case loads).
          Maybe it’s all ‘too soon’ and too raw.

        • McFlock 18.5.1.3
          24 October 2018 at 4:12 pm

          If, if, if.

          The thing is, the perceived situation is self-resolving.

          When JLR is up and about again, he can speak to his heart’s content. We don’t need to speculate. If his mental health was exploited by the nats to “silence” him, he will have avenues open to him to expose the situation if he so wishes, when he is good and ready.

          If whatever call was made was the right one and in his best interests (regardless of how much he recognised that at the time), he will be able to confirm that when he is good and ready.

          As for Bridges non-response, the thing that comes to mind is that he now knows he has little idea about what goes on in his caucus.

          • Dennis Frank 18.5.1.3.1
            24 October 2018 at 4:23 pm

            Yes, I agree with all that. We don’t yet know that he has regained full agency. The medical regime imposed on him may require him to refrain from political activity for his own safety. More speculation, of course, but as long as the authorities continue with their `silence is golden’ stance, we will lack reassurance.

            • JohnSelway 18.5.1.3.1.1
              24 October 2018 at 4:32 pm

              “We don’t yet know that he has regained full agency. The medical regime imposed on him may require him to refrain from political activity for his own safety. ”

              No we don’t know and it isn’t your fucking business anyway.

              • McFlock …
                24 October 2018 at 4:35 pm

                … is another way of putting it 🙂

                • JohnSelway …
                  24 October 2018 at 4:38 pm

                  Just tired of this guy’s complete ignorance of mental health and his perceived entitlement to know things he has know right to know.

                  • McFlock …
                    24 October 2018 at 4:42 pm

                    Yeah, it can be tiring sometimes.

                    • JohnSelway …
                      24 October 2018 at 4:46 pm

                      Weirdly enough I was just at a meeting with my own psychiatrist and was thinking to myself – “Why the fuck would anyone think whatever diagnosis I have here is their business?”

            • McFlock 18.5.1.3.1.2
              24 October 2018 at 4:34 pm

              I’d be surprised if it was less than weeks (and not surprised if it’s months) before he decides to speak publicly about it.

              That’s up to him, not us.

              If you need “reassurance” before then, you’re fresh out of luck. His mental health takes precedence over any responsibility you might think he has to allay your fears.

              • Dennis Frank …
                24 October 2018 at 4:52 pm

                Yeah, me and anyone else smart enough to realise that using privacy law to eliminate civil rights and defeat the whistleblower law is not in the public interest. Slow learners will get there eventually…

                • JohnSelway …
                  24 October 2018 at 4:57 pm

                  What the fuck are you talking about?

                  No one is using privacy laws to erode civil rights. Where did you get that horse shit from?
                  You have no “civil rights” to private medical history.
                  Lets try this simply for the slow learners you mention….

                  An individual’s medical history is a compact between the individual (A) and the medical professionals (B). Other people (C) have no rights to this information

                  B is unable to divulge the information to C unless A give explicit instructions to do so. A is able to divulge any information they wish, to C, without consent from B.
                  C has no part of this compact and will only have access to the information A wishes them to know.

                  I can’t be any simpler than that.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    24 October 2018 at 5:30 pm

                    The issue is his status and agency as a whistleblower. Use of the privacy law and mental health regime to close down Ross, remove his agency, even if only temporarily, is a serious threat. That’s why me & others are emphasising the public interest dimension.

                    Did you even read what Trotter & his comments wrote, via that link I posted? If not, you are obviously in denial of the threat to our democratic system. Ross is a politician. You cannot use privacy law to deny his right to operate on that basis. Did you read the opinion of No Right Turn on this? It’s not just me: kiwis are right to be seriously concerned.

                    Perception that the NP used sectioning to close Ross down, in collusion with mental health authorities, will continue. Your single-minded attempt to spin the issue as merely patient confidentiality will fail. There are too many other important dimensions to the situation for it to succeed. Surely the ongoing silence of his lawyer alone is sufficient to make anyone suspicious! Let alone all those other factors that everyone has been discussing. It’s just another example of the mushroom strategy authorities routinely use on the public: keep them in the dark, feed them horseshit…

                    • JohnSelway …
                      24 October 2018 at 5:36 pm

                      Ross is able to give any details he wishes about his sectioning and his own mental health. Anything and everything if he wishes.

                      There are no laws to stop him from doing so and no one can stop him.

                      Can you or Duke not understand this concept? No one is shutting Ross up and no laws can stop him talking.

                      If Ross wants you to know he’ll tell you.

                      What do you misunderstand?

                  • Dukeofurl …
                    24 October 2018 at 5:33 pm

                    Are you an MP ?

                    Inform your self on the Electoral ACT as regards to Mps who are detained under the mental health act:
                    S56 Member becoming mentally disordered

                    Essentially the director of the facility has to inform the Speaker and further assessment is required , the results of which are also to be given to the Speaker

                    Its an offence to not comply with providing the Speaker with this information.

                    • JohnSelway …
                      24 October 2018 at 5:37 pm

                      Yes – but what is your point.

                      Ross and Ross alone is the one who decides what information is public knowledge.

                      What do you not understand?

                  • veutoviper …
                    24 October 2018 at 5:51 pm

                    Give up john and just ignore the two Ds. They are not worth a second of your time or mine. I have given both of them far too much time and now totally regret it.

                    Ignore – it is really not worth interacting with either of them.

                    They have far bigger problems that either you, I, Mm, or any number of other people here.

                    In fact, someone who reads here but does not comment, has been copying their (and several other people’s) comments here as examples of how not to dealt with mental health issues. I am sure you get my drift.

                    After all, everyone has the right to know what they are saying – don’t they?

                    Don’t answer that! But why should they have privacy rights, or civil rights etc ….

                    • JohnSelway …
                      24 October 2018 at 5:55 pm

                      you’re right. It just always bothers me to see people lying despite being told over and over again where they are wrong.

                • McFlock …
                  24 October 2018 at 10:17 pm

                  Privacy. Is. A. Civil. Right.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    25 October 2018 at 4:12 am

                    Yes, I know. I meant freedom of speech & expression & association. Not sensible to use privacy law to suppress those. Unethical, unwise.

                    • JohnSelway …
                      25 October 2018 at 5:27 am

                      None of those of those rights suppressed by privacy law.
                      What are you talking about?

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      25 October 2018 at 5:34 am

                      As long as he remains unable to exercise them, they are suppressed by the sectioning and aftermath. That status quo will persist until he starts demonstrating that he has regained agency.

                    • JohnSelway …
                      25 October 2018 at 6:40 am

                      As long as he’s out he retains all those.

    • OnceWasTim 19.1
      24 October 2018 at 11:53 am

      It’s almost become Norman Normal @ SaveNZ, and many have known about it for quite some time. I suspect you already knew that too.
      The good thing is though that from the immigrants I know (and there are many), some recent changes initiated by I L-G are being viewed positively. They’re not happening fast enough of course, but then we’re dealing with a structural problem where immigration was turned into a business ‘opportunity’ under a monolithic Munstry that had a bloody toxic culture (albeit with one or two in there trying their best to push back).
      I’m not sure whether the gNats yet realise just how damaging that “two Chinese are worth more than two Indians” (which is actually the way they think) is. And that’s even with a couple of faux concerned individuals trying their best to capitalise on their ancestry running damage control. More fool them – couldn’t have happened to ‘nicer people’

      • OnceWasTim 19.1.1
        24 October 2018 at 12:13 pm

        Btw….. I was half expecting that NewShub link to point to Michael Morrah as its author. Good to know there are others on the case. Till now, most of those involved in exposing the bullshit have been from RNZ, although I notice some have moved on (Laura @RNZ to NewShub [trademarked] ), and others.

  20. SaveNZ 20
    24 October 2018 at 10:55 am

    The government limped into power onto of reforming immigration…
    where is it, sounds like it’s getting worse…

    Seriously how fucked is our ethics and economy, if this is legal????

    Aka – NZ company headed by ex MBIE trawls around the Indian Sub continent spinning stories of employment and charging the $6000 for the privilege.

    Once in NZ, they then pimp out the workers (who essentially paid for the job) to a 2nd party who ’employs’ them on minimum wages and expects them to work without any breaks and to doctor the time sheets to show they are working less.

    Then that organisation pimps them out to an offshore owned luxury hotel on contract which of course is going to be cheaper than local workers and contracts as it’s all based on scams and exploitation!

    I feel particularly bitter as have Whanau that has been undercut by this type of system and they now have lost their government contract as been undercut by organisational structures like this, where they effectively can’t match the slave labour and paid for job work by legalised trafficking of people.

    It’s the middle men they should prosecute, also stop the practice, our own people are being forced out of the workforce and onto benefits!

    Get rid of these work visas, they are benefiting middle men exploiters and then exploiting Both the migrants as well as the people and businesses who are working within the laws of this country and trying to raise wages. The exploiters have major advantages and putting better businesses and workers out of business!

    In Auckland every time you go to a minimum type establishment these days from Laundries, beauty parlours, cafes, restaurants etc, you see different migrant workers each day, it’s an outright scam! Even the people working there say, NZ should not be allowing it, and they plan (as soon as they get NZ residency) to leave NZ and work for higher wages! But of course if they don’t want to leave, then they will just live in NZ on benefits as soon as they can, as cheaper than working those jobs!

    These workers also often do a horrible job, as have minimal training and just go through the motion as to get the necessary paper work.

    I’ve stayed at hotels run with these types of workers and it was a disgusting experience with slap dash cleaning, rat bait under the bed (I’m not joking) and everything falling apart.. Not good for our tourism industry!

    Sadly they also use these scams for aged care and care of vulnerable people and so often the people reliant on decent care, are not necessarily getting a quality standard of care from agencies employing people from these scams.

    Our economy is being build on modern day neoliberal slavery and it has to stop.

    The cotton farmers using slaves in USA years ago, also said it would wreck the economy to abolish slavery, guess what, it didn’t.

    Stop the 180,000 pa work permits to migrant workers to be exploited here.

    Note, that now the scams have spread to Wellington, there is not massive rental shortages, because all these people being pimped into NZ have to rent somewhere!

    • OnceWasTim 20.1
      24 October 2018 at 2:38 pm

      ………………” Aka – NZ company headed by ex MBIE trawls around the Indian Sub continent spinning stories of employment and charging the $6000 for the privilege.”

      Not sure whether all that comes from @ SaveNZ but it is/was even worse than that!
      (I’d love to know by the way on the basis for that comment – I’ll add it to the file)

      Could be you’re referring to the ‘Law firm’ specialising in Ummigration, whose principle visits India at least twice a year, and who has interests in other little ‘enterprises’ that are/have been set up depending on whatever the skill “shortages” there are at play on a skill shortages list [E.G. – we have a shortage of hairdressers, so maybe I should set up a beauty salon, et.c etc. etc] – the end result of which some complete arsehole gets citizenship/PR after being a representative for private tertiary institution(s) in Mumbai, then comes to NZ to become a recruiter for a labour hire/recruitment company, then an immigration advocate/specialist with that ‘law firm’, and finally ends up ripping people off and pretending specialist experience in house-improvement ………….

      Or maybe you’re referring to others who’ve been past MBIE employees now proudly promoting themselves having expertise (on that basis) who’ve gone out and set themselves up in immigration advocacy.

      They’ve given the whole sector a bad name, and worse still, made it possible for everyone of a certain demographic to be tarred with the same brush.
      How much easier it would have been for officialdom to have not just listened to, but also to have given at least feint consideration to the possibility (in the past), that all was not well in the sector.
      There are still scams going on that have not yet hit ‘lil ole NuZull’ (or maybe they have – like the one to do with tertiary education sector non-refundable fee deposits)

      • SaveNZ 20.1.1
        24 October 2018 at 6:54 pm

        @OnceWasTim – Pretty sure they mentioned the ex MBIE link on the newshub TV news on 23 Oct,… someone from the company Internship and then they played a taped call when she was swearing and threatening the migrants. Should be on demand if you want to look it up.

  21. SaveNZ 21
    24 October 2018 at 11:14 am

    Have a look at what people are saying about working in NZ on our low wages.. …I guess as we have no language requirements so the recent foray into non English speakers being exploited, can’t post… but you get the drift, they can’t stay in NZ on our low wages… what they don’t realise is, that the same is true for the Kiwi workers too…!

    https://e2nz.org/dont-move-zealand/comment-page-6/#comments

  22. SaveNZ 22
    24 October 2018 at 11:17 am

    An extract, I agree with a lot of what these people say, NZ has gone Nuts! The people trafficking middlemen have gone through the more educated migrants who post on this site and are leaving, and going for the ones that can’t speak English on active recruiting trips aka links above who probably can’t read the warning blogs about coming here…

    https://e2nz.org/dont-move-zealand/comment-page-6/#comments

    “WE DID IT!!! I know all caps is rude, but I’m excited!!!
    We sold our Auckland house, in this crappy market, we did it!
    Before it all goes to rats and the Auckland market goes down we’re out!!!
    Hoping to actually be leaving the country at the end of this month!
    With a solid 100 thousand pounds deposit for a house back home in North Yorkshire!
    No more late nights worrying about my three old, in light of recent stories about teen depression and suicide, with absolutely no plan by the government in how to even being to tackle it.
    I don’t have to worry that someone is going to try to teach my kid to ‘toughen up’ ‘take a concrete pill’ ‘a little buyyling makes us what we are’ none of that crap for my boy.
    No more worries that even if I did manage to push him through ’tis woefully lacking school system that he’s still going to have sky high student debts with slim chance of a job at the end of it all.
    No more worries that he will never, never own a house.
    Or even more worrying that he will need up in a Rickety old crappy house, that is slowing killing him.
    No more worrying about whether we can have meat for dinner or not, on a combined income of over 170 thousand we still struggle to decide what to eat because our budget is so tight.
    No more being told that as an immigrant i took someone’s job-get off your ass and go to dental school if you want me job!
    Or that it’s my fault the house prices are so high! Are you shi**ing me! I live a full 50k drive one way from work, my commute 1 way is over an hour and half, and that’s cos that’s all we could afford!
    No more watching shops open and close open and close at my local plaza, it’s so depressing, Auckland feels like people just clawing over people to try and get businesses up and running, just to try and survive.
    No more having to read comments on my local ‘free stuff’ Facebook group like ‘does may have any spare antibiotics? My kid is sick and I can’t afford the doctor’, ‘does anyone have any spare clothes for a four year old, my kid doesn’t fit his anymore and I can’t afford to get him some’.”

    • KJT 22.1
      24 October 2018 at 12:46 pm

      Doesn’t sound like the UK is any better after decades of Thatchernomics.

      • SaveNZ 22.1.1
        24 October 2018 at 3:03 pm

        Probably not, but I don’t think they had the depression on wages with the high costs of living, anything like what has happened in NZ…. I took my family to Burger Fuel, $70+ for burgers in NZ, it’s crazy! Also they are completely right, Doctors are not free, I think if you hunt around maybe you can find a free doctor, but in our case, they are not local so you would have to drive there! So it is $70+ for a doctors visit, and $36+ for a family to travel 2 stages return on a bus!

        Here’s what this person had to say.

        “I know that I must sound like a sour, ungrateful, disgruntled snob when I say I am a hard working, qualified professional with a Masters Degree in my field of work, my husband is responsible for managing 20 co-workers in a large business with a six figure weekly turnover, and yet after all these years, we are financially worse off than the day we arrived. On top of this, we have to think twice about buying our kids some treats at our local cinema during the school holidays. Some Kiwis tell us that we just “expect far too much from NZ and need to adapt, tighten our belts, save more and cut back on our spending. Do the hard yards and you will eventually get ahead” – all of which is hard to accept and implement when you have already exhausted so much effort and resources in an ongoing struggle of long demanding work hours and shift work (my husband), together with the rigors of raising a family with two very active young teenagers.

        To sum up, there are many hard working parents like us that simply have less and less available time and money, despite earning what sounds like a decent income. An annual income of 60k, 70k, 80k or 90k+ for a family of 4, may sound fine, but as mentioned, with more and more taxation, together with relentless rising living costs, the buying power of what is essentially a fixed income is becoming less and less by the day, and so too, the NZ lifestyle becomes less and less easy to enjoy. As for how single parents, or those with other challenging living situations and/or circumstances cope, is beyond my understanding. Our family finds it really tough, so they must find it near impossible.”

        • SaveNZ 22.1.1.1
          24 October 2018 at 3:13 pm

          And this person did some comparisons from 2017… so it looks like we are being seriously ripped off on food, and consumer prices and interestingly rents which politicians love to blame for everything is only $5.7 times higher…

          I don’t rent and own my own house, but it’s everything which is expensive in NZ, and it just keeps going up,… insurance, rates, power, water, food, telecoms (while service is worse), transport, repairs… these can be going up 25% a year and nobody in government cares a less while effectively wages are static or declining.

          Indices Difference Info
          Consumer Prices in Hamilton are 30.80% higher than in Newcastle Upon Tyne
          Consumer Prices Including Rent in Hamilton are 24.51% higher than in Newcastle Upon Tyne
          Rent Prices in Hamilton are 5.70% higher than in Newcastle Upon Tyne
          Restaurant Prices in Hamilton are 10.86% higher than in Newcastle Upon Tyne
          Groceries Prices in Hamilton are 50.02% higher than in Newcastle Upon Tyne
          Local Purchasing Power in Hamilton is 5.79% higher than in Newcastle Upon Tyne

  23. Morrissey 23
    24 October 2018 at 11:25 am

    “I can’t STAND this kind of discussion!”
    Watch JFK’s chief spin doctor Pierre Salinger melt down horribly.

    The fun starts at about the 22:35 mark….

  24. outofbed 24
    24 October 2018 at 11:33 am

    So National party unified eh ?
    One mp wants another one dead
    Leader thinks one more fucking useless
    Leader wants 2 or more to quit
    Leader no respect for Indian mps
    Collins undermines leader ,I would have handled better..
    Dep leader thinks it ok for married female mps to have affairs but not males
    And this is what we know.. dysfunctional party in dissaray .I reckon

    • Reality 24.1
      24 October 2018 at 12:01 pm

      Outofbed – spot on! So true.

      Anyone notice that when Labour was having issues a few weeks ago there were daily rants and ravings from Mike Hosking. He was on speed dial. Very quiet this week on National’s “issues” and car racing is his topic today.

    • Gabby 24.2
      24 October 2018 at 2:44 pm

      Banter outy, just harmless banter. Kidnarown.

    • mary_a 24.3
      24 October 2018 at 7:44 pm

      Yes agree outofbed (24) …. been watching Question & Answer time in Parliament. National looking somewhat cracked and jaded, particularly Simon Bridges. Must still have a lot on his mind weighing him down. Can’t be leadership, because there isn’t any coming from him. Is it PB calling the shots?

      Whereas Jacinda on the other hand, sparking off on all cylinders is on fire. No one in Opposition can compare or come near her. Unless the Messiah him/herself steps in (no, not Key) to save Natz, can see this coalition doing at least another two, maybe three terms.

      • Pat 24.3.1
        24 October 2018 at 7:48 pm

        Dont forget the adage,,a week is a long time in politics. This will all be ancient history sometime soon and tribalism will return

  25. joe90 25
    24 October 2018 at 11:40 am

    Gina Haspel would know what torture sounds like.

    CIA chief wants to hear Turkey's audio of Khashoggi killing https://t.co/Q7iqn8swHi— Mohamed Yehia (@yeh1a) October 23, 2018

  26. marty mars 26
    24 October 2018 at 12:08 pm

    Nice initiative

    “Mental illness is often referred to as the black dog and Jess will play a pivotal role in the newly launched Will to Live campaign.

    Will to Live is a mental health awareness campaign targeting young rural men and women which has been launched following the death of Will Gregory in December last year.

    Gregory, 20, who was working as a shepherd and was an accomplished rodeo competitor, took his own life.”

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12147000

  27. greywarshark 27
    24 October 2018 at 12:11 pm

    Oh goodie now we have JLR as well as Trump to fill up any blank spaces in our minds. So something else. Following the lead of most of National and some of Labour being con artists, there are many sucking up what’s left of good nature trust, and spare money mostly from the middle income group or the poor.

    Northland businessman Colin Harris admits fleecing company of six-figure sum
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12114510
    The company, which he established in October 2005, supplied pre-paid telephone landlines throughout New Zealand.
    Initially there were four directors but two left, leaving Harris and Neville Montefiore as co-directors until the former resigned in March 2012.
    Harris’ offending began in May 2009 when he forged a co-director’s signature on a $26,200 cheque to pay a bill, knowing there were insufficient funds to complete the transaction.
    He forged two more cheques in June 2016 and admitted his actions to police, saying “they all did it”.

    2018 NZ Police release hilarious phone call of man trying to scam them
    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/08/nz-police-release-hilarious-phone-call-of-man-trying-to-scam-them.html

    2016Christchurch woman loses more than $20,000 to con artist
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/83424934/Christchurch-woman-loses-more-than-20-000-to-con-artist

    Phone scams in Mandarin go to all numbers of one individual showing they have complete records of victim’s details.
    Since publishing an article, stating New Zealanders and Australians have become a target of the scam, the Herald was contacted by numerous people confirming the scam.

    One reader who spoke Mandarin said they received a recorded message two days ago claiming to be from the Chinese Embassy.
    It said he had a parcel at the embassy and it would be returned to sender if it was unclaimed.
    “Then it transferred to a Chinese male who asked my name and passport number.
    “I was outside then so can’t remember my passport no so told him I’ll call him back when I’ve found my passport.”…
    He said he was lucky he had read about the scam as he almost fell for it.

    Penny Cox said she had been receiving calls from a person speaking Chinese every day for the past two weeks.
    “They came from different NZ numbers each time.

    Saul Parks said he had received two calls from a recording of a person speaking Mandarin.
    He said he traced the call to an Auckland hair salon which he called and they had no knowledge of the scam.

    Another reader said they had received a call and noted “there is urgency in the voice speaking”.
    “I hang up and block the number but they keep calling.
    “Sometimes they call me on my landline at work, sometimes on my work mobile but lately it’s my personal mobile.”

    2018 Scam artist pretending to be employee wreaks havoc at Napier Aquatic
    Centre
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/100347252/scam-artist-pretending-to-be-employee-wreaks-havoc-at-napier-aquatic-centre

    2018 Life savings lost: More New Zealand victims of ‘global scam’
    https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/business/life-savings-lost-more-new-zealand-victims-of-global-scam/
    One Kiwi investor claims FM Wealth Management conned about $85,000 out of him during 12 months of interactions with the “brilliant, highly- knowledgeable” and “smooth, confident talker” man known only as “Bruce Matthews”.

    Hair and beauty salons are targets of fraudsters.
    2017 https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/91734852/Alleged-ponzi-fraudsters-hair-and-beauty-business-owes-1-4m

    Oldies and baddies:
    2013 Serial con artist jailed for petrol scam
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10858158

    Brush with law reveals art scam
    4 Feb, 2004 12:53am
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=3547311

  28. Pete 28
    24 October 2018 at 2:28 pm

    Credit where credit is due:

    Paul Goldsmith in the House is trying to do an impression of a blithering idiot.

    I have to admit he’s doing a perfectly brilliant job of it.

    • Pete 28.1
      24 October 2018 at 2:33 pm

      And Gerry Brownlee, who was in the House over years when David Carter was in the chair not handling John Key, is parading his petulance.

  29. Morrissey 29
    24 October 2018 at 4:06 pm

    This is what hate speech looks like.

    This morning I posted on Kiwiblog part of an interview with a peace activist from the famed Israeli human rights group B’Tselem. The response was shocking in both its ignorance and its vileness….

    https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2018/10/general_debate_24_october_2018.html/comment-page-1#comment-2340985

    • WeTheBleeple 29.1
      25 October 2018 at 7:30 am

      I met a young couple in Australia who were conscripted into the Israeli army. They seemed such nice folks and actually helped me out of a bind. But when I began to ask about Palestine they turned into nasty assholes instantly. As they spoke the detestation and sheer hatred was palpable:

      “They’re vermin, they’re disgusting, they should be exterminated.”

      They didn’t actually know any Palestinians, but they were absolutely sure they were the enemy.

  30. Gabby 30
    24 October 2018 at 4:30 pm

    To be fair, Bignipis and Garbagemouth are from that neck o the woods aren’t they.

    • Morrissey 30.1
      24 October 2018 at 7:50 pm

      Quite possibly, Gabby. But so do Hagai El-Had, and Gideon Levy, and Amira Hass, and so do all the brave young people who refuse to join what Norman Finkelstein memorably described as “the most cowardly army in the world.”

  31. Dv 31
    24 October 2018 at 5:11 pm

    Cops investigating the donations
    Good

  32. eco maori 32
    25 October 2018 at 8:34 am

    Kia ora The Am Show I’m not going to talk about the fuel tax you people are just doing what the media does make an mountain out of a mole hill .
    Gulls got a sale on today
    With the Kiwi saver story I’m just happy that more people are joining Kiwi Saver.
    There is a big movement against farming around the world who play with people’s emotions and use this against farmers .
    I will put a lot of thought into my moko Chrismas presents education and durability is my plan.
    Breast feeding babys is a natural think an so manners but some wahine are to busy with there child to read how others are reacting to her situation.
    Nea The Tank engine is a good thing one starts with the moko to so we become more culturally aware and acceptable.
    Ka kite ano P.S I seen a celebrity having issues with this this week

  33. eco maori 33
    25 October 2018 at 9:24 am

    A good photo Eco Maori admires Astronomy
    Astronomy Photographer of the Year 2018: the winning images
    The US photographer Brad Goldpaint has beaten thousands of amateur and professional photographers from around the globe to win the Royal Observatory Greenwich’s title of Insight Investment Astronomy Photographer of the Year 2018. The exhibition opens at the National Maritime Museum on Wednesday.
    Ka kite ano Link is below

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/gallery/2018/oct/24/astronomy-photographer-of-the-year-2018-the-winning-images

  34. Eco Maori 34
    25 October 2018 at 10:42 am

    Many thanks to the European Union for baning single use plastic bags it’s working here in Aotearoa I just use news paper to line my rubbish kite/basket. I see people taking there own bags into supermarkets the autocheck outs don’t like that though one kept playing up.
    Ka pai Ka kite ano link below.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/24/european-parliament-approves-ban-on-single-use-plastics-uk-eu-brexit

  35. Eco Maori 35
    25 October 2018 at 10:59 am

    I totally agree with this person views
    We should be speaking Maori in public at school all over the place.
    Its correct that the more people who learn te reo the more they will understand Maori culture and that’s good for everyone.
    Ka kite ano. Link is Below

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/life-style/108091468/te-reo-mori-shouldnt-feel-like-a-foreign-language

  36. Eco Maori 36
    25 October 2018 at 11:20 am

    I say we should have been talking about hydrogen instead of fuel tax I Back any new green energy. One never knows we mite come up with a light Weight new material to hold and transport the hydrogen gas Ka kite ano link below.

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/108075481/giving-oxygen-to-hydrogen

  37. eco maori 37
    25 October 2018 at 12:23 pm

    Eco Maori knows what to do with proper gander IGNORE IT and it will disappear.
    Here’s a link on a good person one can see by his action’s he a good person link below
    Ka kite ano

    https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/24/politics/weaver-axe-files/index.html

  38. eco maori 38
    25 October 2018 at 4:04 pm

    Here you go the go oil party is full of cheats like trump A federal judge has ordered election officials in Georgia to stop throwing out absentee ballots solely because of a suspected signature mismatch. The decision was a victory for voting rights activists who feared the practice could disenfranchise thousands of eligible voters Ka kite ano
    link is below.P,S trump’s got a sore face today I wonder why

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/24/judge-halts-georgia-absentee-ballot-rejections-midterms

  39. eco maori 39
    25 October 2018 at 4:36 pm

    Eco Maori is trying to get the Australian pollies to commit to mitigate climate change.
    Business welfare climate and energy groups have urged the Morrison government to put emissions reduction back on the table, warning a global transition towards lower emissions and ultimately net zero emissions is both necessary and inevitable.
    Ka kite ano P.S scotty will be needing a heap of tissues in June

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/oct/25/coalition-urged-to-revive-necessary-and-inevitable-emissions-reduction

  40. eco maori 40
    25 October 2018 at 4:56 pm

    This is global warming poking us in thee eyes a severe thunderstorm covers Rome in hail and floods on sunday Ka kite ano link is below

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/video/2018/oct/22/severe-thunderstorm-covers-rome-in-hail-and-floods-video

  41. eco maori 41
    25 October 2018 at 6:45 pm

    Kia ora Newshub craig and (what oil) are history lets keep there type in our history books
    E scooters new tec Alice they seam like fun maybe a speed limit of walking speed on footpaths and a rego number to identifier the owner .
    I see the CEO’s interfering with our teachers and other public employees views they have a big sway in how there employees behave and think thats why shonky stacked all his m8s in the top job to minuplate there staff look at mutton chops you mite work out who I’m talking about I see his star dimming everyday .The strikes are all coming from the top.
    I don’t give any air to people who like propergander pipe what.
    Mike the snow storm down South Island is telling us that climate extremes are the new normal weather I could have Sunbathed on saturday in Whakatane .
    Stock exchange will pick up again a World that worships$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
    That’s a good law if one has a child and they split before 3 years the partner should automatically get half . As men earn the most money the old law put some wahine at the mercy of the man I know he will use that to play the wahine and child
    Ka kite ano

  42. eco maori 42
    25 October 2018 at 7:18 pm

    Kia ora The Crowd Goes Wild been a bit busy lately to post to the Show James & Mulls.
    The coach seem much more composed in front of the camera that’s cool .
    That’s social media the can just focus on things and push out negative comments.
    Crock zilla looks like a awsome book on Wyatt Crockett hope it sell good.
    It will be good if our the shot put man wins the Award .
    Wai looks like Auckland rugby is doing good I’m not aloud a beard my youngest son has a good one thought .
    Ka kite ano P.S Anna thats smove looks good the awesome sights

The server will be getting hardware changes this evening starting at 10pm NZDT.
The site will be off line for some hours.