Open mike 25/07/2023

100 comments on “Open mike 25/07/2023 ”

• Comments are now closed

1. Roy Cartland 1

   25 July 2023 at 6:33 am

   X marks the spot – Musk abolishes Twitter logo, name next https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/494400/x-marks-the-spot-musk-abolishes-twitter-logo-name-next

   Wow, I wonder how much this brilliant logo cost to design
   • SPC 1.1

     25 July 2023 at 5:22 pm

     He plans to have his own form of we chat (messaging, social media and banking around since 2011) in a few more years.

     Musk and his Planet X.com solar system.
2. bwaghorn 2

   25 July 2023 at 6:40 am

   https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/heather-du-plessis-allan-drive/audio/matt-lowrie-greater-auckland-director-says-its-impossible-for-tolls-to-pay-current-construction-costs-as-suggested-by-act/

   Acts road toll policy doesn't stack up!!

   Unless like all good free market right wingers they expect tax payers to subsidize their profits??
3. Dennis Frank 3

   25 July 2023 at 7:29 am

   There's a good review here, for those interested in dramatic history: https://slate.com/culture/2023/07/oppenheimer-movie-historical-accuracy-communist-manhattan-project.html

   Witnessing the A-bomb’s first test in the desert far outside Los Alamos, the New Mexico town where much of the bomb-building took place, he really did (as the film depicts) recite the line from the Bhagavad-Gita, “Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.”

   At his meeting with President Harry Truman, after the bombs he helped build incinerated Hiroshima and Nagasaki, he really did say “I have blood on my hands.” And Truman, who lost no sleep over his decision to drop the bombs, really said to an aide afterward (though not within earshot of Oppenheimer, as he does in the film), “Don’t let that crybaby in here again.”

   Psychodrama! Hero as "a complex portrait: a tortured soul, enthralled by the science, then racked by guilt over the hellscape it unleashed. He’s insistent on his independence as a scientist, but also pliant in his role as mere adviser to authority. He’s certain of his convictions, but ambivalent about almost everything."

   In the 1930s and early ’40s, he had been a “fellow traveler” – probably not a card-carrying member of the Communist Party, but an active supporter of some of its causes, which in the day included racial integration, a minimum wage, and aiding the anti-fascist soldiers in the Spanish Civil War. Not only that, his wife, Kitty (played by Emily Blunt), had once been a party member, as had his brother and several of his close friends, and he attended several meetings of the party’s chapter in Berkeley, where he was teaching physics. Even after he was appointed director of Los Alamos in 1943, his security clearance was held up because of these connections.

   The film seems to have merit as exploration of the science/politics interface, considering timeless issues involving power & truth – plus faustian deals that changed the world.
4. Sanctuary 4

   25 July 2023 at 7:47 am

   Listening to Winston Peters on RNZ and really, he hasn't changed. He's tarted things up a bit with some MAGA catch phrases but what makes him jarring is the fact he is still pitching to a Tauranga audience of retired Rob's mob circa 2000.

   It is such a pity, because NZ First has some good ideas but ultimately, it is entirely his vanity project and will disappear once he shuffles off this mortal coil.

   Also, he is completely owned Ingrid Hipkiss.
   • Roy Cartland 4.1

     25 July 2023 at 8:11 am

     I always thought there were some good ideas too, but they got lost in the forest of demented rants.

     Do you think he's the 4-dimension chess player, the Professor Snape of Parliament, just there to pull the whacko votes without ever intending to action them? Some do.
     • Sanctuary 4.1.1

       25 July 2023 at 8:46 am

       I think Winston Peters is in it for Winston Peters. Entirely a vanity project. The man seems driven by vendettas real and imaged (mostly imagined). Peters is interesting because he has constantly presented himself to voters as an outsider kicking against the elites. Ingrid Hipkiss gave him pleanty of ammunition to advance that argument with her odd attitude and rather dismissive approach to him in the interview.

       In an recent interview with the New Yorker magazine crackpot, cooker and maybe presidential hopeful Robert F Kennedy Jr. accused his interviewer as being among the "elites". The journalist replied that Kennedy is from a far more privileged background than he. Kennedy says:

       "When I use the word “élite,” I’m talking about the people who are inside the Beltway, the press figures who are supposed to be speaking truth to power, but instead have become propagandists for the government. Who view their jobs as quashing dissent, and quashing political criticism of the government that they’re supposed to be actually criticizing."

       Therefore Kennedy, a genuine member of the ruling-class, is not an elite because he's an outsider. The elites are the insiders who shape consensus reality, whose moral and political codes dominate. The rest are forced to live in that reality and are victimised if they question it. Think "woke elite", and "metropolitan elite". Hipkiss firmly placed herself into this notional "elite" with the tone of her interview and walked into the rather obvious traps Peters set for her.

       This displacing of class antagonism onto cultural elites is a boring commonplace of the Right – Kennedy might think he is onto something novel, but really, Winston Peters has been doing it for thirty years and Muldoon was doing it in the 1970s.
       • roy cartland 4.1.1.1

         25 July 2023 at 8:52 am

         It's a funny theory of his, "insiders who shape consensus reality", when he's supposedly 'saying-what-we're-all-thinking' .

         I wonder what shenanigans he'll get up to if he squeaks in again then.
   • AB 4.2

     25 July 2023 at 8:56 am

     Yeah – listened to it. I thought, will enough of these old dudes (among whom I place myself) do their coil shuffling thing before the climate crisis has become unsolvable – as they are the major obstacle to even trying? It looks like a tight race – like a reality-based 'reality tv' show. I'm not betting on it.
   • observer 4.3

     25 July 2023 at 11:10 am

     The funniest thing about Winston at the weekend was seeing all those Asian immigrants (mostly Indian) turning up at his party conference.

     He didn't tell them to go home because there were too many of them. That was 1996 Winston. So many different Winstons over the years, I've lost count.
     • mary_a 4.3.1

       25 July 2023 at 4:40 pm

       @ observer (4.3) … Winston Peters is a chameleon, changes his colours constantly to suit Winston. You wouldn't know what you were voting for with him. This leads me to think NZF led as it is presently by Peters is in no man's land, lacking policy, ready and willing to go with any party, which gives him personally a good deal. For these reasons, I would not ever vote for NZF. I like to know what I'm getting when I cast my vote and with Peters, it could be anything, because nothing is black or white with him. He's a grey unknown area unto himself … no pun intended there … known for holding the country to ransom, while he works out what is best for Winston!

       About time Peters retired and left NZF to some younger politicians.
5. Dennis Frank 5

   25 July 2023 at 8:31 am

   The Nat/Lab obsession with short-term politics posed a big problem for the younger generations now: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/132487585/global-megatrends-putting-critical-infrastructure-system-under-pressure

   security threats are growing, supply chains are faltering, and there’s an ever-present – albeit low at any given moment – threat of natural catastrophe.

   To try to limit the extent of the damage, the Government is trying to work out what has to be done to harden the country’s critical infrastructure.

   As part of that process, it has published a discussion document full of warnings that risks are growing, while measures to safeguard – or at least minimise the damage –to vital infrastructure are patchy and insufficient.

   The document pointed to a 2021 report commissioned for the New Zealand Infrastructure Commission, which said this country had a historic infrastructure deficit of $104b. Without policy change the shortfall was on track to grow by $106b in the next 30 years.

   Better late than never?? At least govt seems to be musing upon this structural problem. No surprise that Labour kicked it down the road into the next electoral cycle though. Labour's real good at that. The thrill from each kick gets them high…
   • Ed1 5.1

     25 July 2023 at 2:07 pm

     3 Waters covers some of these large infrastructure issues, and I have not seen undue delays to the efforts to fix the mile-long 'potholes' such as in the Coromandel, or the hill slips and flooding that have destroyed homes. Certainly no opposition party has offered and policies that are any different – it is easy to make false accusations of kicking issues down the road without any detail – but the ACT/Nat obsession with complaining about everything while not offering alternatives is not even kicking the tires
     • Dennis Frank 5.1.1

       25 July 2023 at 3:14 pm

       Looks like the historical compounding of the infrastructure deficit they refer to has been produced by collusion between Labour and National in the long-term, so your binary framing of the thing doesn't work. It fails to address the root cause.

       Pothole repairs get done due to current funding. Ad hoc fixes serve to mask the real problem: towns, roads & bridges vulnerable to climate change. The system needs more of a reboot than tinkering. Neither the left nor the right have the brains & guts to do what is required.
6. Adrian Thornton 6

   25 July 2023 at 8:37 am

   Here is an example of exactly how much the "West' actually care or value Ukrainian lives (as if we already didn't know) …

   "Meanwhile, for the United States and its NATO allies, these 18 months of war have been a strategic windfall, at relatively low cost (other than for the Ukrainians)"

   https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/07/18/ukraine-war-west-gloom/

   …yep, on a scale of one to ten…one, or maybe minus one, as it is plainly obvious that Ukrainian lives have zero value to the Western leaders (and their arse and boot licking media pundits)….but hopefully most sentient observers must have worked out by now that this war has always been about the West and the Wests own geo-political objectives, and Ukraine just happens to be the unfortunate country that is in the wrong place at the wrong time….the West have never given a fuck about Ukraine and they don't now, just like they don't give a fuck about Taiwan.

   So you can be sure that no Western leader is going to lose one minute of sleep over the loss of at least two entire generations of Ukrainian men in what the history books will most certainly describe as (what should have been) an easily avoidable war ..much like Iraq, Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan…..wait, does there seem to be a common denominator here?
   • Sanctuary 6.1

     25 July 2023 at 8:52 am

     "…Ukrainian men in what the history books will most certainly describe as (what should have been) an easily avoidable war…"

     How otherwise apparently rational human being can cling to this sort of nonsensicial and illogical thinking on the Ukraine war will puzzle social scientists for decades to come.
     • Francesca 6.1.1

       25 July 2023 at 10:12 am

       The social scientists will have plenty to wrap their heads around.Like how was it possible to fool so many for so long with simple media generated propaganda.In the west! of all places.

       The sovietisation of western media is pretty well complete, the free press is dead

       (Ask Assange)
   • UncookedSelachimorpha 6.2

     25 July 2023 at 12:00 pm

     "…yep, on a scale of one to ten…one, or maybe minus one, as it is plainly obvious that Ukrainian lives have zero value to the Western leaders"

     I tend to agree, due to the cynical slow-rolling by the West of military aid to Ukraine, when they should have given them everything short of nukes in whatever quantities the Ukrainian's asked for.
   • Sabine 6.3

     25 July 2023 at 3:48 pm

     the war can only continue if the Ukrainian men do the dying – and of course foreign fighters – as no Nato Member country would last a week sending its own to die there.
7. tWiggle 7

   25 July 2023 at 8:51 am

   And how would this war have been avoided without Ukraine becoming a non-democratic state run by Russian puppets?
   • Francesca 7.1

     25 July 2023 at 10:02 am

     As opposed to being a non democratic state run by American puppets?

     Who knows what would have come to pass had the US and Europe stood by their promises and not betrayed goodwill by embedding NATO further and further eastwards , until it, a hostile military alliance , was entrenched on Russian borders
     • Res Publica 7.1.1

       25 July 2023 at 10:40 am

       Who knows what would have come to pass had the US and Europe stood by their promises and not betrayed goodwill by embedding NATO further and further eastwards , until it, a hostile military alliance , was entrenched on Russian borders

       It's not like NATO forced Poland or the Baltics to join at gunpoint.

       Given the choice between joining an alliance that would at least respect their sovereignty (even if sometimes the US can be an awkward ally), and becoming a Russian satellite state again, they rationally and rightly chose the align themselves with the West.

       Don't those countries also have the right to feel that Russia isn't exactly a trustworthy, good-faith actor? I mean, the number of times Lithuania has been occupied, annexed, ethnically cleansed, or otherwise screwed around by the US is exactly zero. Whereas the Russians have form.

       And maybe there would have fewer issues with NATO's expansion if the current Russian regime was less repressive, wasn't morally bankrupt, and had weaned itself off the historical inclination to embark on foreign adventures to paper over the cracks.
       • Francesca 7.1.1.1

         25 July 2023 at 11:11 am

         That old chestnut!

         No gunpoint, but possibly bagfuls of money and other more subtle incentives , I hear US diplomats can be very …ahem.. persuasive.

         And one has to be invited by NATO to join NATO .It's not NATO passively accepting anyone who asks, if that was the case , Russia itself would be in NATO

         https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/28/nato-expansion-war-russia-ukraine

         Talk about corruption!

         Ukraine and many of the other East European states are absolutely riddled with it

         And come to that , we could be looking a lot closer to home

         https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/07/25/mediawatch-astounding-corporate-capitalism-corruption-from-consultants-guyon-espiner-at-his-best/
         • Res Publica 7.1.1.1.1

           25 July 2023 at 11:47 am

           That old chestnut!

           No less old a chestnut than spouting nonsense justifications to support your wannabe hegemon du jour. 'tis a tale as old as war itself.

           Nobody disagrees that Eastern Europe has had troubles with corruption: it's been a problem ever since the fall of the Soviet Union. But to try to draw a line between that, the expansion of NATO, and the war in Ukraine takes quite a leap of the imagination!

           Besides, I don't think you're giving the people of the former Eastern bloc enough credit. They know what their problems are. They've done their own strategic and foreign policy calculus.

           And they've decided that actually, NATO membership is worth it despite the potential downside of pissing off the Russians. Because, in their view, the risk of a Russian invasion/meddling is quite high. Or at least high enough to justify the costs.

           As for democratic legitimacy, I think the fact that so many Ukrainians are willing to fight tooth and nail to defend what you are implying is a corrupt government is evidence enough that they don't feel the same way you do.
           • Francesca 7.1.1.1.1.1

             25 July 2023 at 1:43 pm

             If the Ukrainians are universally willing to fight tooth and nail, forced conscription where men are grabbed off the street would not be necessary

             And this would not be happening

             or this

             https://www.kyivpost.com/post/18584
         • UncookedSelachimorpha 7.1.1.1.2

           25 July 2023 at 12:21 pm

           NATO has been enthusiastically welcomed by many of the states formerly occupied and subjugated by russia. They had the choice to join or stick with russia, but chose NATO – seems one is a much preferred choice to the other, and russian aggression keeps making NATO seem more and more desirable.

           Nato hasn't expanded East – it has been invited East. Big difference to russia sending tanks over your border as they are prone to do.

           "And one has to be invited by NATO to join NATO ."

           Yes, nato invites you, but only after a country first approaches Nato and expresses an interest in joining:

           Countries that have declared an interest in joining the Alliance are initially invited to engage in an intensified dialogue with NATO about their membership aspirations and related reforms.

           Aspirant countries may then be invited to participate in the MAP to prepare for potential membership and demonstrate their ability to meet the obligations and commitments of possible future membership.

           "It's not NATO passively accepting anyone who asks, if that was the case , Russia itself would be in NATO"

           Have you read this?

           On 27 May 1997, at the NATO Summit in Paris, France, NATO and Russia signed the Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security [de], a road map for would-be NATO-Russia cooperation

           Additionally, the act established a forum called the "NATO-Russia Permanent Joint Council" (NRPJC) as a venue for consultations, cooperation and consensus building

           ….

           The NATO-Russia Council (NRC) was created on 28 May 2002 during the 2002 NATO Summit in Rome. The NRC was designed to replace the PJC as the official diplomatic tool for handling security issues and joint projects between NATO and Russia. The structure of the NRC provided that the individual member states and Russia were each equal partners and would meet in areas of common interest

           NATO–Russia relations stalled and subsequently started to deteriorate, following the Ukrainian Orange Revolution in 2004–2005 and the Russo-Georgian War in 2008….Several highly publicised murders of Putin's opponents also occurred in Russia in that period, marking his increasingly authoritarian rule and the tightening of his grip on the media….Beginning in 2014, Russia engaged in further hostile threats followed by military actions against Ukraine (2014–present); Syria (2015–present), and Turkey (2015–2016), among others.

           And it fell apart.
           • Francesca 7.1.1.1.2.1

             25 July 2023 at 1:45 pm

             If the Ukrainians are universally willing to fight tooth and nail, forced conscription where men are grabbed off the street would not be necessary

             And this would not be happening

             or this

             https://www.kyivpost.com/post/18584
             • Belladonna …

               25 July 2023 at 2:05 pm

               Meanwhile close to 1 million Russians (including hundreds of thousands of men of enlistment age) have fled the country. Clearly they are overwhelmingly delighted to be forced into a war of conquest /sarc/

               https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_emigration_following_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
               • Brigid …

                 25 July 2023 at 4:43 pm

                 Good grief. Did you actually read this Wiki? The claim is not verified as stated '[not verified in body] '.

                 I'd say a wider search of information may be called for.
                 • adam …

                   25 July 2023 at 9:25 pm

                   wikipedia hs slipped to being just propaganda. I avoid like the plague these days.
                   • UncookedSelachimorpha …

                     26 July 2023 at 1:04 pm

                     Or does 'propaganda' just mean 'information I don't agree with'?

                     All information sources should be critically considered and not entirely trusted – but do you have actual evidence of wikipedia being widely unreliable and factually incorrect? I’d be interested to see it.

                     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_of_Wikipedia
                   • adam …

                     27 July 2023 at 5:14 pm

                     Or does 'propaganda' just mean 'information I don't agree with'?

                     UncookedSelachimorpha nope, propaganda is the dissemination of information—facts, arguments, rumours, half-truths, or lies—to influence public opinion. To quote britannica.

                     The reality is apart from men being the main editors of wikipedia, something like 90%. Or those in the west who dominate and direct the content, so cultural economic bias. It has become a tool for the ruling class.

                     This worth a watch if you have time
             • Res Publica …

               25 July 2023 at 2:11 pm

               Closer to home, we had conscription in WW1 and WW2 here too. Does that invalidate the sacrifice made by those that did go fight? Or the eventual overthrow of Nazism?

               OK, I'll give you WW1: a war whose devastation was only outstripped by its sheer pointlessness.

               But total war is just that: total. You throw every body. Every bullet. And every ounce of energy into the fight.
               • adam …

                 25 July 2023 at 9:40 pm

                 But total war is just that: total. You throw every body. Every bullet. And every ounce of energy into the fight

                 Jingoistic shitfuckry at it's finest.
             • tWiggle …

               25 July 2023 at 3:40 pm

               Do you live in the real world, not one gaslit by Winston Churchill and Soviet state WWII propaganda about how willing the male population is to fight, and to stand a good chance of wounding or death? Only 17 year olds imagine themselves heroes.

               Anyone with half a brain and a knowledge of the realities of war knows that compulsory conscription is there because most men understand full well that the front line of a brutal trench war is not the place to be. But moral, or nationalistic, or 'we're in it together' reasons make most compliant. For others, they slip the net, until rounded up unwillingly.
               • Res Publica …

                 25 July 2023 at 9:29 pm

                 Exactly. In a life-or-death struggle, you need every warm body you can get your hands on. Modern warfare is brutal.

                 And if not enough people volunteer, then yeah, using the coercive power of the state to conscript aforementioned warm bodies is the way to go.

                 But there's a yawning gulf between rounding up criminals to use as cannon fodder in a pointless foreign war, and conscripting citizens when your country has been invaded.
           • Sanctuary 7.1.1.1.2.2

             25 July 2023 at 1:54 pm

             The Baltic states must be delighted they are in NATO with madman Putin in the Kremlin. Can anyone doubt they'd have been first on the block for invasion and annexation if they were not in NATO?

             The Balts are giving evcerything they have plus lots of volunteers to support Ukraine, and if you really want to know what the East Europeans think of Russia just take a look at Polands military build up. The huge army they are creating in the next few years isn't designed to stop the Germans…
             • mikesh …

               25 July 2023 at 6:32 pm

               The purpose of Poland's military buildup is to waste money and impoverish the country, not to mention the enrichment of US arms manufacturers who will selling them the goods.
               • UncookedSelachimorpha …

                 26 July 2023 at 1:00 pm

                 Makes sense.

                 Of course the Polish government argue

                 "let's buy arms to impoverish ourselves and waste money"

                 not

                 "Russia invaded, murdered and subjugated us for decades, russia say they want to again, and are invading their other neighbours. So let's arm ourselves and join nato!"
           • Sanctuary 7.1.1.1.2.3

             25 July 2023 at 2:00 pm

             Yup. There is a reason Ukraine wants into NATO – Russia doesn't dare attack anyone backed up by Uncle Sam.
             • tc …

               25 July 2023 at 3:45 pm

               Yes the same backing Israel enjoys as it continues to stick 2 fingers aloft to all and sundry including its own people.
             • mikesh …

               25 July 2023 at 6:40 pm

               You forget that it was not Russia who started this war. It started in 2014 when Ukraine attacked it's Eastern provinces.
               • Belladonna …

                 25 July 2023 at 6:55 pm

                 Do you mean when Russia annexed the Crimea?
                 • mikesh …

                   25 July 2023 at 8:18 pm

                   Yes. When Crimea once again became Russian territory.
                   • Belladonna …

                     25 July 2023 at 8:38 pm

                     So it's fine for Russia to invade and annex part of another sovereign country.

                     Do you people ever listen to yourselves?

                     Crimea had historically *never* been part of post-Soviet Russia. From 1991 it was part of Ukraine (well, there's some argument about whether it was an autonomous republic inside or outside Ukraine – but it was certainly not part of Russia). Until it was annexed by Russia in 2014.

                     Please save your time and don't bother raising the 'referendum' which is universally held (apart from the pro-Russian apologists) to have been entirely dictated by the Kremlin.
                   • mikesh …

                     25 July 2023 at 9:55 pm

                     So it's fine for Russia to invade and annex part of another sovereign country.

                     Depends on the circumstances. All bets were off once Ukraine turned Westward and formed an alliance with the evil empire. Anyhow it was what the majority of the Crimean people wanted.

                     As for the alleged shonkyness of the referendum, as claimed by NATO's fellow travelers and useful idiots, this has never been proved.
         • Corey 7.1.1.1.3

           25 July 2023 at 12:54 pm

           Ahh the west is bad chestnut!

           It's the Wests fault that all these newly free former Soviet nations would rather fight to the death than ever suffer under the rule of Russia again.

           It's the Wests fault that these nations want to join NATO to protect themselves from an expansionist Russia.

           All those eastern Europeans who'd rather be allied with the West than Russia are brainwashed!

           Don't they know that the west is bad!!!

           They should listen to clueless people who've lived in western countries their whole lives about how the west is just as bad as Russia and just roll over and join Russia again

           I mean how would Ukraine and co know whether Russia or the west is worse! It's not like they ever lived under Russian rule before

           The Ukrainians should listen to tanky kiwis and surrender to Russia cos the west is bad.

           West is baaaaaaad!
           • Francesca 7.1.1.1.3.1

             25 July 2023 at 1:49 pm

             You got in it a nutshell Corey, time for the rose coloured spectacles about the West came off and we face up to the damage we've done, the colonisation, the wars, the excessive polluting consumption , the consequences of western domination on the citizens of the rest of the world.
             • Sanctuary …

               25 July 2023 at 1:57 pm

               Gaslighting the Balts, Poles and Ukrainians about the intentions of Russia is a really tasteless thing, given they've all suffered in the last century Soviet genocides.
             • Belladonna …

               25 July 2023 at 1:59 pm

               I don't really think that levels of pollution is a field on which Russia can win.
               Ever hear of Lake Baikal, Norilsk, Dzerzinsk….. the list goes on.

               And, you still seem to be missing the point: the citizens of the Countries bordering Russia *do not want* Russian domination….

               Somehow, in your mind, "western domination" (by which you seem to mean the USA) is bad; but Russian domination is good.

               Don't you even see the contradiction?
               • Brigid …

                 25 July 2023 at 4:50 pm

                 Which countries bordering Russia have been threatened with Russian domination? When has Putin ever declared a desire to dominate countries bordering the Russian state? Or is it that you are simply believing all the tripe spewed by CNN et al?

                 History shows that domination by the west is undoubtedly bad.
                 • Belladonna …

                   25 July 2023 at 4:57 pm

                   Gosh, I'd have to say Ukraine.

                   An invasion, with appalling civilian casualties, pretty much qualifies as 'domination'.
               • mikesh …

                 25 July 2023 at 6:57 pm

                 What 'Russian domination' ? It's 30 years since Warsaw pact dismantled.
                 • Belladonna …

                   25 July 2023 at 7:19 pm

                   Russian invasion of Ukraine would be a strong indicator of Russian domination…..

                   Or perhaps you've missed it….
                   • mikesh …

                     25 July 2023 at 8:28 pm

                     I realise that Russia has launched a defense maneuver against NATO on Ukrainian soil, but you are right, the "domination" thing seems to have escaped me. Though I suspect it's just a product of your febrile imagination.
                 • Belladonna …

                   25 July 2023 at 8:40 pm

                   Yup completely missed the illegal armed invasion of an independent country – with appalling civilian casualties.

                   Your pro-Russian blinkers are super strength – the Kremlin must be proud.
                   • adam …

                     25 July 2023 at 9:35 pm

                     I look forward to you holding the UK and USA accountable for the invasion of Iraq.

                     Invasion of an independent countries is a war crime, and all cases should be treated as such.
                   • mikesh …

                     25 July 2023 at 10:01 pm

                     Yup completely missed the illegal armed invasion of an independent country – with appalling civilian casualties.

                     A country that was already conducting civil war against its Eastern provinces.

                     Doesn’t it warm the cockles of your heart seeing those brave Ukranians sacrificing themselves for Uncle Sam. Bless ’em.
                   • mikesh …

                     26 July 2023 at 9:40 am

                     Well I would say American arms manufacturers are laughing all the way to their banks. Apparently Ukraine is not as "independent" as you imagine.
             • tWiggle …

               25 July 2023 at 3:49 pm

               Francesca, is that the West you are talking about, or capitalism? Last time I looked, Russia also suffered from ecological disasters, grossly unfair living conditions for a large part of the population, and kleptocratic oligarchs, just like the US, but with a bit less freedom to complain about it.
         • Belladonna 7.1.1.1.4

           25 July 2023 at 2:27 pm

           "And one has to be invited by NATO to join NATO .It's not NATO passively accepting anyone who asks"

           This doesn't seem to be true….

           NATO says it has an ‘open door’ policy and any European country can join.

           The only requirement is that they agree to further the principles of the Washington Treaty and contribute to the security of the North Atlantic area. This is set out in Article 10 of the founding 1949 North Atlantic Treaty (also referred to as the Washington Treaty).

           https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9813/

           The restriction on membership is that the joining criteria are fairly stringent (so Ukraine was unlikely to have qualified for quite some time)
     • Belladonna 7.1.2

       25 July 2023 at 4:13 pm

       Oh, do give us examples of the NATO states which are "non democratic states run by American puppets"

       Were you thinking of Germany, France, Iceland? Turkey, perhaps? Surely not the most recent NATO countries of Finland and Sweden?

       All of whom are highly democratic (vastly more so than Russia) – and frequently critical of the US when their interests don't align.

       If they are puppet states, then the puppet-master is a pretty incompetent one.

       As a contrast, I offer you … Belarus….
   • Blazer 7.2

     25 July 2023 at 10:10 am

     It was never democratic before the conflict and signing the Permanent Neutrality Agreement would have halted the ..bloodshed.

     Did Boris Johnson scuttle a Russia-Ukraine peace deal – back in APRIL? | Vox Political (voxpoliticalonline.com)
     • tWiggle 7.2.1

       25 July 2023 at 10:31 am

       2019 Ukraine elections were rated fair and open by internal and international observers. "In contrast to 2014, when Russian cyberattacks compromised the Central Election Commission network".

       (https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/in-depth-research-reports/report/foreign-interference-in-ukraine-s-election/).
8. Francesca 8

   25 July 2023 at 10:51 am

   Posting a link to the Atlantic Council is equivalent to posting a link to Sputnik, or the old Pravda
   • Res Publica 8.1

     25 July 2023 at 11:49 am

     Francesca, isn't that exactly what you're doing with your whole "the war in Ukraine is NATO's fault" routine?
     • Francesca 8.1.1

       25 July 2023 at 1:52 pm

       You'll notice(maybe not) that I used a western source on NATO, the Guardian, bastion of western "values", because an adversary nation's point of view incites the vapours in red blooded patriots of the glorious west
       • Res Publica 8.1.1.1

         25 July 2023 at 2:06 pm

         You quoted an opinion piece that was republished by the Guardian, written by a senior member of a think tank (the Cato Institute) well known for its libertarian, anti-NATO views and belief in a non-interventionist foreign policy.

         So, maybe actually check and evaluate your sources before you start firing off quotes.

         All that proves is that there is more than one useful idiot in the West.
   • tWiggle 8.2

     25 July 2023 at 3:21 pm

     All right then, Washinton Post Reuters report from UN officials in 2014 on election in eastern Ukraine:

     "At the same time, it is already clear that in two eastern provinces, where 14 percent of the electorate lives, balloting will be next to impossible, thanks to forcible disruption by Russian-backed militants…Six days before the election, that failure is blatantly evident.

     “There is intimidation,” a senior U.N. official told the Reuters news agency in describing the eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk. Ivan Simonovic, the assistant U.N. secretary general for human rights, said that a number of presidents and vice presidents of local elections commissions had been abducted or otherwise mistreated. Reuters reported that the last election commission attempting to operate in the city of Donetsk shut down Monday, leaving no voting operation in an urban area of 1 million people. Concluded the interior minister of Ukraine’s interim government: “It will be impossible to hold normal elections over the huge territory of Donetsk and Luhansk regions."

     Worse than cyber attacks – kidnapping and intimidation of electoral officials.
9. Dennis Frank 9

   25 July 2023 at 10:54 am

   Apparently state agents have no right of free speech. Well, that seems to be the view of the PM. I presume he doesn't believe in civil rights? I suppose he would claim he does, but privileged members of the control system are meant to keep quiet regardless.

   Prime Minister Chris Hipkins told Morning Report it was not appropriate for a board member of a Crown entity to publish his opinions in such a public space. "Somebody who is on a board of a Crown entity, particularly an independent media entity like Radio New Zealand, shouldn't be providing an independent political commentary."

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300935052/not-appropriate-for-rnz-board-member-to-publicise-views-on-kiri-allan-scandal-pm-says

   So the muzzle he was obliquely referring to does exist but in a quasi-covert method of suppressing free speech:

   In a statement, the RNZ board said chairperson Dr Jim Mather, who is currently overseas, has been made aware of the issue and has spoken to Ake about his responsibilities under the Code of Conduct for Crown entity board members. He specifically informed Ake of the protocol which states "when acting in our private capacity, we avoid any political activity that could jeopardise our ability to perform our role or which could erode the public's trust in the entity".

   The general idea seems to be that board members cease being able to do social media and become robots instead. Or maybe androids. Mere cogs in the machine of governance.

   Rob Campbell ought to put his lengthy experience & expertise to work on the situation: form a union of oppressed board members, use it to speak out in the public interest.
   • Bearded Git 9.1

     25 July 2023 at 11:22 am

     Assuming Ake has no expert knowledge on mental heath matters, Ake has made a groundless and gratuitous attack on Hipkins handling of the Allan situation.

     Hardly acceptable behaviour coming from a board member of a Crown Entity, especially one whose key role is supposed to be politically neutral, and only 12 weeks out from an election.

     I suggest Ake knew exactly what he was doing here and so should be sacked.
   • newsense 9.2

     25 July 2023 at 11:27 am

     Yeh he’s got a job which specifically precludes his involvement in politics. It’s in the contracts.

     Either choose the job or your social media. Not tricky.
     • tWiggle 9.2.1

       25 July 2023 at 3:25 pm

       Am I wrong? I thought this board member/social media responsibility debate had been thrashed out in full in two recent cases, with appropriate consequences.
       • Belladonna 9.2.1.1

         25 July 2023 at 4:19 pm

         Looks as though he's doubling down on his commentary in this space (although, not directly critical of the PM – he's still critical of the government's delivery on mental health for Maori). Despite being told by the RNZ Chair that he can't be political – and a pretty direct statement from Hipkins that he was out of line.

         Ake has this afternoon published a new post, saying events like Allan’s resignation elevate the opportunity for Māori to have conversations about mental health.

         “We need to grab those opportunities because they encourage public discourse especially among our whānau. Mental health and well-being is the silent killer and a swathe of Māori journos got it immediately.”

         Māori were disproportionately affected by mental health issues, he said.

         “Yes we live longer but we continue to lag behind Pākehās. That’s the real crime here and much of it is borne out of this ideological premise that we as Māori must conform.

         “That’s the conversation we had in our whare last night with our kids. We probably would not have had that yarn if we were not jabbed by recent events. I wonder how many other Māori households had that discussion or at least raised their collective awareness.”
         …
         This morning Broadcasting Minister Willie Jackson said Ake had always been a vocal person and this would need to stop if he was to remain an RNZ board member.

         "He will pull back though, because as I said the chair's been in touch and he's going to have to if he wants to stay a board member there."

         https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/494454/rnz-board-member-jason-ake-makes-fresh-comments-on-kiri-allan-saga-despite-criticism-from-pm
10. Muttonbird 10

    25 July 2023 at 11:19 am

    X is on. Looks dreadful. Did they get AI to do it? Two snap-off craft knife blades arranged in a way to suggest authority, denial, intimidation. Musk is a dick.
    • joe90 10.1

      25 July 2023 at 11:32 am

      Did they get AI to do it?

      It's a unicode character.

      

      https://www.compart.com/en/unicode/U+1D54F

      https://www.businessinsider.com/twitter-x-logo-unicode-math-textbooks-2023-7

      edit: it gets better

      @keithedwards
      Microsoft owns the trademark for X. This is just too good.
      https://twitter.com/keithedwards/status/1683586586007437312
      • arkie 10.1.1

        25 July 2023 at 11:39 am

        He's been at this 'X' idea for a while:

        Peter Thiel, left, and Elon Musk, right, hold VISA credit cards branded with the X.com company logo on October 20, 2000

        https://www.businessinsider.com/history-behind-elon-musk-x-brand-that-may-replace-twitter-2023-7
        • joe90 10.1.1.1

          25 July 2023 at 12:21 pm

          Be interesting how the Microsoft trademark, XBOX and everything that entails, plays out.
      • Peter 10.1.2

        25 July 2023 at 11:48 am

        No doubt we'll hear that some brains trust have been working on the X for two years and spent millions coming up with it.

        And once revealed it took five minutes and no dollars for someone to say "I recognise that."

        The legal cases to follow? Probably run into the tens of millions.
        • bwaghorn 10.1.2.1

          25 July 2023 at 12:28 pm

          Looks like 2 ys to me ,
      • SPC 10.1.3

        25 July 2023 at 5:47 pm

        X for games – Microsoft patent

        X for social media – Meta patent

        X for banking – Musk patent

        Musk wants to have messaging, social media (audio and video) as well as banking on one platform/app – it's been done and called we chat.

        His X is one overlayed by the other, his blade over that of the planet – satellite comms frequency to all, terrestial activity connections, transportation by smart device car (automatic management by AI) and lift of into space to escape it all.

        An X man, with Sumerian god pretensions walks among us.
    • joe90 10.2

      25 July 2023 at 2:09 pm

      We have a winner.

      

      Sesame Street

      @sesamestreet

      The letter X will be holding a press conference later today. #TwitterX

      

      https://twitter.com/sesamestreet/status/1683508159942467584
    • roblogic 10.3

      25 July 2023 at 3:59 pm

      This X debacle is just confirmation beyond doubt that Musk is an egotistical grifting fuckwit

      
      • roblogic 10.3.1

        25 July 2023 at 4:07 pm

        twitter -> X
        google -> ABC
        facebook -> Meta

        personal, meaningful words X'ed out by abstract corporate slogans.

        symbolism:

        X – wrong answer
        X – illiteracy, anonymity, removal of personhood, censorship
        X – extinction, extermination, death
        X – corporate fascism "crossing out" democracy and free exchange of ideas
        X – skull and crossbones; piracy; vulture capitalism
        X – pornography, forbidden knowledge, occult

        but hidden in this darkness is a redemptive arc:

        + in Jesus, the death of God breaks open new life 🐣
        + a cross is where heaven and earth intersect 🔀
        + psalm 85:10 "Love and faithfulness meet together; righteousness and peace kiss each other." 🫶🏼
        + the red cross is a symbol of healing and peace amidst troubled times
11. newsense 11

    25 July 2023 at 11:31 am

    Looking forward to questions to the leader of the opposition if he will introduce a bill to require anyone taking a mental health day or two to have clinical clearance before they return to work. What a tosser.

    Hipkins should have bent time, looked through to the future void to see how Allan’s break up was going to go and if she was going to be okay to work and only then allowed her back.
12. Alan 12

    25 July 2023 at 11:57 am

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132611615/david-parker-untenable-to-remain-revenue-minister-after-wealth-tax-rejection

    In some ways, this is more important than the departure of Kiri Allan
    • Belladonna 12.1

      25 July 2023 at 12:20 pm

      It's a public acknowledgement of a very significant split in the Labour cabinet.
      • mikesh 12.1.1

        25 July 2023 at 8:40 pm

        Time, I think, for Chippy to fall on his sword like Andrew Little did in 2017.
        • Belladonna 12.1.1.1

          25 July 2023 at 8:44 pm

          Who would you see as the Ardern in that situation? I certainly don't see a popular, unifying figure waiting in the Labour caucus wings.

          Absent an Ardern-style figure emerging, Hipkins resigning would be an unmitigated disaster for Labour.
          • mikesh 12.1.1.1.1

            25 July 2023 at 10:08 pm

            They could do worse than Parker himself. Yes, I know he's boring, but I reckon he would make mincemeat of Luxon in the campaign debates. And perhaps the electorate is tired of colourful figures. Jacinda-ism may be outmoded.
          • SPC 12.1.1.1.2

            25 July 2023 at 11:09 pm

            It was Wood and Allan, so their wings clipped it is onward with Hipkins.

            His job is at it was, to compete to win and fall on his sword if he does not. Though the law and order of politics, Professor Palmer, handed on late to the last line of defence for the old regime (Meikayla Moore) in 1990. Who tried again in 1993.

            After the election, the precedent is falling back to either a future candidate for UNSG or Mayoralty of Auckland.
    • Phillip ure 12.2

      25 July 2023 at 12:22 pm

      @ alan

      I agree…I came on here expecting it to be full of it..

      The revenue minister walking away from his portfolio in protest at the canning of the wealth tax he developed ..is a very big deal..

      I don't doubt his sincerity in this move..

      And it makes sense as positioning as a future progressive leader of labour..

      And if gren/tmp do as well as some hope..and demand a wealth tax as the price to pay for coalition support ..labour can roll hipkins…and parker is there…ready to roll..
      • Alan 12.2.1

        25 July 2023 at 12:45 pm

        Yes, NACT will be singing that loud and clear every day leading up to the election.
    • observer 12.3

      25 July 2023 at 1:08 pm

      It sums up the emptiness of NZ's political coverage.

      Kiri Allan's departure, while very sad for her, is not about any policy issue at all. It has no bearing at all on what this government or an alternative government would do. It does not affect the voters' real lives in any way. Unlike say, tax policy.

      But for political reporters it's the soap opera, and they love it. Parker's just boring.
      • Belladonna 12.3.1

        25 July 2023 at 2:17 pm

        I agree that Parker is boring (policy wonk, with little public appeal or charisma).

        But the timing of this ministerial shuffle has to have been very deliberate – Hipkins (and, I'm sure Parker with his loyal to Labour hat on) – will be hoping to slide it under the kerfuffle occasioned by Allen's resignation, and the consequent reallocation of portfolios.

        The last thing Hipkins or Labour want is a forensic journalist asking hard questions about how solid Labour's tax policy is; and/or how solid Hipkins' support is from the Labour front bench.

        First Robertson (not exactly enthusiastic in the media stand up around the tax policy), and now Parker (basically saying, 'not on my watch').
13. Drowsy M. Kram 13

    25 July 2023 at 12:52 pm

    National Party leader Chris Luxon’s women drought – Luxon sets 50% women goal but men got most National’s winnable seats s [24 June 2023]

    Of National’s 69 candidates, 23 are women and 46 are men.

    There are seven women standing in safe National seats, only one of whom is not a sitting MP.

    By contrast there are 17 men in safe seats and 16 in potentially winnable seats.

    The only category in which women candidates outnumber men are in safe Labour seats, which National has zero to little chance of winning. In those, there are 12 women and 11 men.

    Of National’s tranche of new candidates, 15 men were selected in winnable seats compared to just four women.

    Sounds about right. That article states the Nat list is expected by the end of July.
14. Roy Cartland 14

    25 July 2023 at 3:46 pm

    I have to take it back. The politicians (if not nec the journos) are being very magnanimous towards Kiri. Both sides. Even more so than with Muller.

    I'll eat my hat over this. I hope it gets reported properly.

    (I’m watching parl tv)
    • Belladonna 14.1

      25 July 2023 at 4:03 pm

      I think many of them will be thinking, "There, but for the Grace of God, go I"

      Parliament – especially cabinet – is a pressure cooker – and it sometimes just takes one additional source of pressure for an explosion to happen.

      I suspect that all of them are treating Allen very differently to either Wood or Nash – whose errors were arrogance and entitlement.
15. Hunter Thompson II 15

    25 July 2023 at 7:39 pm

    Congrats to the Philippines soccer team, which beat us in the Womens' World cup.

    NZ had 70% possession and 4 accurate shots on goal to their opponents' 1, but still lost

    by the only goal in the match. Those stats are not good if you are the NZ coach.
    • SPC 15.1

      25 July 2023 at 9:08 pm

      The stats were great, not the result.

• Comments are now closed

• Log in
• Donate
• Contribute post

• Articles RSS