Open mike 25/09/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 25th, 2021 - 122 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

122 comments on “Open mike 25/09/2021 ”

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  1. Gezza 1
    25 September 2021 at 7:01 am

    “An Afghan man waiting to know if he could get a visa to join family in New Zealand has been killed trying to flee to Pakistan, a source says.

    A member of the man’s family had helped the Defence Force in Afghanistan and has already been resettled here.

    So far resettlement of people who helped the Defence Force has been limited to partners and dependent children.

    But other family members were also at risk from the Taliban that has now taken over Afghanistan, Community Law Centres O Aotearoa chief executive Sue Moroney​ said.

    …The man who died was one of a group of 70 waiting for a hearing in a Wellington court about how Immigration New Zealand has stalled processing their visas. Community Law Waikato was working with the lawyers taking the action.

    …An Immigration New Zealand spokesman said it had not been made aware of the incident, but understood the difficulties faced by those in Afghanistan and empathised with their situation.

    The national manager of refugee and migrant services, Andrew Lockhart, said in a statement that Immigration New Zealand was unable to comment on matters while they were before the courts.”

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/126486667/taliban-believed-to-have-killed-afghan-man-waiting-for-result-of-nz-visa-bid
    ………………………………………..

    It’s a damn shame the wheels of the system are turning ever so slowly. Must be a nightmare for these people, with the Taliban also being present in Pakistan if any of them somehow manage to slip past the Taliban border guards in Afghanistan.

    • Gezza 1.1
      25 September 2021 at 6:11 pm

      Aljazeera TV is showing this Part 2 of a documentary The Forbidden Reel this week, showing film archives of Afghanistan, just before, & during, the time of the Soviet invasion & occupation.

      It's a fascinating look at how westernised the people of the towns & cities were before the Taliban eventually took over & sent whole country back to a medieval-like Islamic Emirate. (25.03 min)

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9SKaYxREbr4

      Next week they'll be showing Part 3: The Rise of the mujahideen.

  2. Adrian Thornton 2
    25 September 2021 at 7:30 am

    Here is one especially for Ad, our resident New Labour lover, so thereby as is with his beloved NZ Labour Party are enemies of Left wing politics and any real structural progressive changes in our society….and of course it goes without saying are enemies of the working classes… remember folks, just because you are better than National doesn't make you good.

    [This is another personal attack and your recent comments have been in the same vein and aimed at the same commenter. Saving your aggressive attacks for OM does not give you special licence to attack others especially not others who are also Authors on this site.

    You obviously cannot distinguish between robust debate and attacking others for whom you have nothing but contempt.

    This is your only warning because we have been here before so many times – Incognito]

    • Red Blooded One 2.1
      25 September 2021 at 9:10 am

      Obviously you feel strongly that the NZ Labour Party are heading the country towards a model of complete non Union workers, like Walmart. I disagree as they appear to have made strides towards better worker rights and protections. It may not happen as fast as you would like but workers are definitely better off under a Labour/Greens Government than under a Act/National Government (or the other way around which ever is the greatest)

      Your video above, has no relevance to NZ and your attack on another commentator by using it is just mischievous and pointless.

    • Incognito 2.2
      25 September 2021 at 11:06 am

      See my Moderation note @ 7:30 am.

    • RedLogix 2.3
      25 September 2021 at 12:16 pm

      This is in addition to Incognito's primary moderation.

      You have been told repeatedly that comments primarily framed as a personal attacks are going to get the attention of the moderators. The odd dig here or there is going to be tolerated – especially if there's a decent argument being made – but you fail to understand the boundary. You have a clear pattern of this behaviour – making the debate aggressively personal with no provocation.

      We do try to implement moderation in an incremental, proportionate fashion, warnings, advice, editing, moving to OM and then bans of increasing severity. You have used up all of these options – it's my view the next step will likely be terminal.

      • Ad 2.3.1
        25 September 2021 at 1:05 pm

        Team 🙂

      • Descendant Of Smith 2.3.2
        25 September 2021 at 4:06 pm

        That would be a shame. Adrian, like Rogue Trooper whom I miss hearing from, to my mind have been some of the few working class voices that sound like the aunts and uncles I grew up with out of mining and forestry communities that frequent this site.

        They understand that what was normal and not even extreme left before Rogernomics is still way to the left of where the pale blue labour party is now.

        Things are not getting better for the poor and Labour is not really doing much to lift things in a serious way – the lack of implementation of the WEAG recommendations to benefit rates was a severely wasted opportunity compounded by the two tier benefit system they have introduced during COVID. The difference in approach to supporting people during lock-down this time – no increase in food limits like last time left foodbanks etc overwhelmed and distraught.

        All around them people are suffering – good intentions and be kind are insufficient.

        Many Labour people are happy with slow incremental steps – the trouble is as always that the right lurches right everytime they get into power. You can't beat lurches with baby steps.

        • Tiger Mountain 2.3.2.1
          25 September 2021 at 4:17 pm

          Agree with your summary Descendant.

          NZ Labour have criminally wasted a likely once in a generation MMP majority Govt. situation due to entrenched neo liberalism long embedded in the NZ State, the “Parliamentary wing” and Caucus being able to dictate to the wider NZ Labour membership, and fifth columnist tories throughout the senior public service.

        • RedLogix 2.3.2.2
          25 September 2021 at 4:31 pm

          Adrian always had the opportunity to make his point without leading with a personal attack. Especially not on an author who contributes substantially to the site.

          His choices, his consequences. You don't get to blame 'systemic censorship' or some such.

        • Patricia Bremner 2.3.2.3
          25 September 2021 at 5:27 pm

          I hear your pain. Not all things are able to be corrected at once, and big money has huge power.

          Adrian attacks the person too often in his anger. This is not helpful for the moderators.

          You are correct about the lurches by the right and the left infiltrators of the 80s. This Government is trying to correct the levers and the settings, and have every intention of introducing the WEAG.

          However, the pandemic has meant Health and Education needed fast support in these unusual times. We do need to keep a level of faith and trust in their good intentions. We are only half way through their second term.

          We try to be tolerant of differing levels of commitment to the cause, as age experience gives a different more nuanced view of 'progress'.

          • Descendant Of Smith 2.3.2.3.1
            25 September 2021 at 6:36 pm

            Nonsense. Kids are not at school cause they are stacking shelves in the supermarket to bring some money into the family, kids can't do homework cause they have no electricity so can't read/study in the evening, kids can't study cause they can't concentrate due to living in overcrowded conditions and motels – while those who own the motels make millions off them or don't feel safe in that motel environment.

            What age tells me is that those horrific stories of poverty, slum housing, children working, dependence on charity not welfare, church groups making money off the poor and so on that my grand-parents and great grand parents experienced are back – have been for some time and is getting worse.

            There is no collective warm heart in charity and the government has no intention of making benefits back to the same rate as NZS as they used to be – and in my view compensating those who have suffered with the punitive rates that have existed for a long time. They freely admit that officials gave them advice not to lift benefits by another fifty dollars cause people might not go to work- and yeah they followed that advice.

            At times I think they are just naive – but most times they are just not competent in addressing poverty in a timely manner. In the meantime children and adults suffer.

            The gentle sentiments rather than the angry ones.

    • gsays 2.4
      25 September 2021 at 4:56 pm

      I appreciate the angle you are coming from and share your criticism of the Labour party.

      I would like to continue reading yr opinions. In the spirit of the test match tonight, play the ball not the man.

  3. Stephen D 3
    25 September 2021 at 8:11 am

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/south-pacific/126487798/aukus-logic-is-morally-wrong-and-new-zealand-must-resist-it

    An alternative view to the nuclear submarine issue. I especially liked this bit.

    “If we want to enjoy a peaceful future, Aotearoa should do the exact opposite of what Hooton and Malpass suggest. We should forge closer relations with others that share our anti-nuclear values – and there is no shortage of such countries.

    We should increase our diplomatic capacity to build relationships and to contribute to conflict prevention and peace. We should focus our international energy on solutions to climate and the urgent transitions we need on energy, food and transport. Instead of focusing our diplomatic and security efforts on the Five Eyes, we should strengthen our relationships in, for example, Asean​ countries, in Latin America and, of course, in our neighbouring nuclear-free Pacific Islands.”

    • francesca 3.1
      25 September 2021 at 8:36 am

      What a breath of fresh air.

    • RedLogix 3.2
      25 September 2021 at 11:58 am

      “If we want to enjoy a peaceful future, Aotearoa should do the exact opposite of what Hooton and Malpass suggest. We should forge closer relations with others that share our anti-nuclear values – and there is no shortage of such countries.

      The ground has shifted from the 80's and this pretty delusion would leave NZ foolishly vulnerable. A Xi Xinping led-PRC has now become first a competitor and now an opponent of the US. It's a hairs-breadth away from becoming an enemy. Now we get to pick a side – there will be no idealistic 'sitting it out as a neutral, non-nuclear, non-aligned' pixie dust land.

      NZ survives as a trading nation and our biggest customers will all be on one side or another – and certainly the US will not tolerate NZ trading with the PRC in the event of open hostilities. This ain't a pretty reality but more than a few kiwis need to grow up on this.

      Nuclear weapons are never going away. We can ban them all we want, but any reasonably advanced nation can build a bunch before lunchtime if they feel the urgent need to. The weapons themselves – fearful as they are – are not the primary issue. The core problem is a world in which totalitarian regimes retain the capacity to project their rising power onto first their neighbours and then whole regions.

      Arguing for banning nuclear weapons as solution to aggression – is like banning door locks as the answer to home invasion.

      We should focus our international energy on solutions to climate and the urgent transitions we need on energy, food and transport.

      All fine things. It’s called human development and we’ve been doing this really well for the decades since WW2. But you can be secure and rich, but not dead and rich.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 3.2.1
        25 September 2021 at 1:27 pm

        It's [China's] a hairs-breadth away from becoming an enemy [of the US].

        If that's true, then NZ should do everything possible to prevent it from happening. We may not have significant influence, but we need to send clear diplomatic signals that this is not what NZ wants – it shouldn't be what anyone wants, imho.

        Now we get to pick a side – there will be no idealistic 'sitting it out as a neutral, non-nuclear, non-aligned' pixie dust land.

        Ideologically-driven hawks are pushing for a 'confrontation' between China and AUKUS, and appear keen for NZ to pick a side. Can our small, stable democracy withstand pressure from our "very, very, very good [5 eyes] friend" and its other allies? Given our divergent and successful response to the pandemic so far, maybe we can.

        David 'I can smell the uranium of your breath' Lange and Helen Clark won't be everyone's cup of tea, but those left-leaning PMs spoke for me on matters of (nuclear) war – hope in the fullness of time I'll be able to say the same of Ardern.

        NZ misses out on free trade deal with US due to war opposition

        New Zealand Prime Minister's comments cause a stir
        New Zealand's differences are there on the record. Maybe some of those remarks were unfortunate, a bit over the top. I tend to think they would be bypassed in the fullness of time. But the more important point is, as Clark herself has said, one of principle, and if the principle's staked out on the ground and the difference is there, well so be it, and not a lot can be done about it. And I think on both sides, this includes Australia as well as the United States, the leaderships are mature enough to recognise that difference and move on.

        Fingers crossed commonsense prevails over hawkish impulses, at least for now.

        China's Xi, like Biden hours earlier, turns to calm language

        Choosing calm language as tensions with the United States grow, Chinese leader Xi Jinping reiterated his nation's longtime policy of multilateralism on Tuesday, telling world leaders at the United Nations that disputes among countries “need to be handled through dialogue and cooperation."

        His remarks came hours after U.S. President Joe Biden said he didn't have any intention of starting a “new Cold War" — itself a response to criticism from the U.N. chief this weekend that both Washington and Beijing need to make sure their differences and tensions don't derail their 42-year-old relationship and cause problems for the rest of the planet.

        "One country’s success does not have to mean another country’s failure," Xi said in a prerecorded speech to the U.N. General Assembly's leaders' meeting in New York. "The world is big enough to accommodate common development and progress of all countries."

        • Ad 3.2.1.1
          25 September 2021 at 1:42 pm

          Yes and so unsurprising for Xi to visibly walk it back on the world stage, with the AUKUS deal sewn up last week, and the 4 Pillars meeting today. China getting the message … its "wolves" will turn into standard Labradoodles once more.

          But it took the collective to push back against China to get that result.

          As our own PM reminded in her US speech, we need each other.

          • RedLogix 3.2.1.1.1
            25 September 2021 at 1:51 pm

            Exactly. While everyone can agree the war is morally appalling and in an ideal world all leaders would act to prevent it as a matter of principle – for the moment at least we have to rely on more pragmatic means and make the cost of it too high.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 3.2.1.1.2
            25 September 2021 at 1:52 pm

            China getting the message … its "wolves" will turn into standard Labradoodles once more.

            The ‘doves’ will be cooing, but where does this calm leave our standard ‘hawks‘?

            Suppose it could be the calm before the storm – ‘hawks’ can only hope, although most ‘birds’ with any sense, even ‘eagles’, prefer calm, clear skys.

            • Ad 3.2.1.1.2.1
              25 September 2021 at 1:58 pm

              It's a terrible old saw "talk softly but carry a big stick" (Popularised by Theodore Roosevelt).

              Looks pretty much like the Australians said last week we're getting a big stick, and this week China at the UN goes "OK we understand".

        • RedLogix 3.2.1.2
          25 September 2021 at 1:46 pm

          Well and good. Now in the spirit of this new found co-operation Xi Xinping can:

          • Tell his military they can stand down from their preparations for imminent war
          • Stop expanding their already massive navy and airforce that now only serves an expansionist purpose
          • Stop their daily aggressive incursions into the airspace of other nations
          • Apologise for years of openly bombastic diplomatic rhetoric that is intended to intimidate and bully
          • Stop using their state controlled media to run jingoistic articles advocating to use nuclear weapons to eradicate Japan for instance
          • Pull back from their incursions into India and cease to militarise the Tibetean plateau
          • Dismantle the mass imprisonment of millions of Uighurs, and cease the demographic and cultural genocide of these people.
          • Stop using the BRI as a fig-leaf for neo-colonial expansionism across Asia-Pacific and Africa
          • Repudiate their territorial claim over Taiwan and the so called Nine Dashed Line in the South China Sea.

          Xi Xinping can say anything he damn well pleases – his actions will be what counts.

          • Gezza 3.2.1.2.1
            25 September 2021 at 2:03 pm

            Don't think Comrade Xi regards the BRI as a neocolonialist expansion plan. Probably will just contend Western countries continue to use their multinational corporations & private companies to effectively do the same thing?

            PRC won't be repudiating their claim to Taiwan. They'll most likely take it back eventually, one way or another. May not be by military means.

            They've held sway in Tibet for so long they'll see no need to pull out of there.

            India may yet give them another bloody nose at the border. Depends how much military might Xi wants to invest in what I assume is relatively small amount of territory. Is it resource rich in something extremely valuable?

          • Ad 3.2.1.2.2
            25 September 2021 at 2:05 pm

            It would also be good if the US dismantled its military bases in:

            – the Marshall Islands and

            – Guam,

            – pulled back a couple of its bases in Japan down to say a dozen,

            – scaled back in Korea down to say half a dozen bases,

            – Packed up in Kyrgystan, and

            – Proposed how to roll back back the trade sanctions with China.

            That might take a bit of heat out of stuff.

            • Maurice 3.2.1.2.2.1
              25 September 2021 at 2:17 pm

              Let "them" do it first?

              All has been said on the subject a couple of millennia ago:

              “Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum”

              • Ad …
                25 September 2021 at 2:31 pm

                Who's off first?

                I don't mind.

                Xi and Biden need to do something historic, together, to show they can still really do diplomacy.

            • Tiger Mountain 3.2.1.2.2.2
              25 September 2021 at 3:54 pm

              Numbers vary, depending on what is considered a military base, and whether operational etc. but scanning various figures and tote ups online, China has barely 3 on foreign soil–one a signal station in Myanmar, and the US has 800 plus in upwards of 80 countries including Air, Navy and Marines etc. possibly more if embassies containing significant numbers of armed personnel are counted.

              US Imperialism remains the largest threat to world peace as it has been since becoming a nuclear power. Time for Aotearoa NZ to leave 5 Eyes (4 Eyes sounds better) and have pride in non aligned status with a fully independent foreign policy.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 3.2.1.2.3
            25 September 2021 at 2:10 pm

            Well and good.

            Isn't it though. For a moment I thought it might be 'all on' – a terrifying prospect.

            • RedLogix 3.2.1.2.3.1
              25 September 2021 at 2:45 pm

              It's China that you are defending here. If you want to present the PRC as morally superior to the US then my short list above would be a starting point.

              I've consistently said that the US is our least bad choice and nothing I've seen changes this calculus. Up until the leadership of Xi Xinping you might have been able to make an argument for the PRC – but not now. That ship has sailed.

              You call me an 'ideological hawk' and maybe I am. I am going to stand against totalitarian regimes led by authoritarian strong-men like Hitler, Imperial Japan’s Hideki Tojo, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, the Kim family and Xi Xinping every damn time. This doesn't mean my allies are necessarily nice people or anyone I'd want to defend. I just need them to be effective.

              • Stuart Munro …
                25 September 2021 at 3:31 pm

                I think we ought to change the focus of our condemnation in fact. Under Hu, the bellicose actions in Hong Kong and the threat to Taiwan weren't happening. The problem is Xi, not China. Like every other "President for life" he is automatically illegitimate. We, and our allies, have no problem with China in general, just the fool who is prepared to risk significant consequences for what seems like self-aggrandizement.

              • Drowsy M. Kram …
                25 September 2021 at 4:21 pm

                It's China that you are defending here.

                That assertion suits your narrative, but it's not what I'm doing. In as much as any country can have morals, I don't believe the PRC is morally superior to the US, and it's disappointing that your worldview constrains you to such a narrow interpretation of my comments. I invite you to read my comment @3.2.1 again and pinpoint where you believe I’m "defending" China – unless you mean "defending" China from a military assault, in which case yes, imho all countries should be defended from military aggression.

                I believe democracy, the only system of governance I've participated in, is (far) preferable to communism, and I'd rather countries didn't (try to) impose their systems of governance on others. When a majority of citizens in a sovereign country clearly want a democratic say in how their country is run then pro-democracy movements, for example in Myanmar and Belarus, can be supported diplomatically. External aggression is not the answer.

                Would also prefer that fully democratic governance could be continued in Hong Kong (a special administrative region) and Taiwan (whose sovereignty China disputes), and believe that other democratic countries should do what they can, short of going to war, to support established democracies there.

                As for "making an argument for the PRC" – the PRC is a fact of life. What worries me is the idea that the PRC, or at least the CCP, is so evil and so great a threat to the lifestyles of ‘the golden billion’ that it must be ‘hounded’ out of extistence. Acting on such hawisk impulses cannot end well, imho.

                Perhaps what this boils down to is that I believe that, for all their faults and internal challenges, both the US and the PRC have the right to exist and to govern themselves as they see fit.

                • RedLogix …
                  25 September 2021 at 4:45 pm

                  unless you mean "defending" China from a military assault

                  That's cool. Now point me to anyone serious who has suggested invading the PRC mainland this century. (Invoking ghosts from 200 years past does not count.)

                  Would also prefer that fully democratic governance could be continued in Hong Kong (a special administrative region) and Taiwan (whose sovereignty China disputes), and believe that other democratic countries should do what they can, short of going to war, to support established democracies there.

                  That's also nice, except Xi Xinping has said he will go to war in order to absorb Taiwan into his regime. And followed up his words with substantial military preparations combined with almost daily armed incursions into the edges of Taiwan's airspace.

                  Provocative words and actions. In return you suggest we accept the threatened destruction of a nation very similar to NZ – in fact you could describe them as having more in common with us than virtually any other Asian nation – as a 'fact of life'.

                  or at least the CCP, is so evil and so great a threat to the lifestyles of ‘the golden billion’ that it must be ‘hounded’ out of extistence.

                  Yes. In the past 100 odd years we've had to do it at least four times and it's on the cards we're going to have to do it again. I know that's a bitter pill, even more so if it means we get sucked back into the orbit of the hated Yanks again – but there it is. Life sometimes sucks.

                  So much so it might give the thoughtful pause to consider what our grandparents generation did in the immediate aftermath of that last great global conflagration WW2. And what we might have to do in order to improve on their bitterly earned solution.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    25 September 2021 at 8:20 pm

                    That's cool. Now point me to anyone serious who has suggested invading the PRC mainland this century.

                    If by “this century” you mean the last 22 years, then no-one – same goes for the US. If you mean the last 100 years then Japan springs to mind.

                    Xi Xinping has said he will go to war in order to absorb Taiwan into his regime.

                    If you say so. I believe war-mongering is detestable – that goes for “totalitarian monster” Xi’s war-mongering, and anyone else’s. ‘Good war-monger’ is an oxymoron, imho.

                    Provocative words and actions. In return you suggest we accept the threatened destruction of a nation very similar to NZ – in fact you could describe them as having more in common with us than virtually any other Asian nation – as a 'fact of life'.

                    Such a disappointing (but unsurprising) fabrication – we both know I've suggested no such thing. Your continuing penchant for twisting my words is noted.

                    Internal conflicts (Communists vs Nationalists) and WWII gave birth to modern China – god help us all if your vision of another war to end China comes to pass.

                    • RedLogix …
                      25 September 2021 at 9:03 pm

                      Exactly – the idea the PRC needs a massive military and the largest navy in the world by hull count in order to 'defend' itself is a complete non-sequitur. It's sole conceivable purpose is to replace the hated Americans as the regional hegemon. And that region extends from Africa in the West to AU/NZ in the south by sea – and across Central Asia to the Middle East by land.

                      And while invading is easy, occupying is much harder. The subjugation of the Uighur people might well be seen as a practise run toward perfecting the mass control of large populations and rendering them incapable of resisting eternal CCP control. A decade ago such a thought would have been unthinkable – now much less so. Chillingly less so.

                      My vision is the exact opposite of another war – preventing Xi Xinping from invading Taiwan is precisely the means to avoid one.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    25 September 2021 at 10:48 pm

                    My vision is the exact opposite of another war – preventing Xi Xinping from invading Taiwan is precisely the means to avoid one.

                    Great – no more war is our shared vision. The US and regional players (notably China and countries hosting US military bases, i.e. Japan and South Korea) should make every effort, short of war, to avoid war.

                    Taiwan under Japanese rule (1895 – 1945)
                    Taiwan was Japan's first colony and can be viewed as the first step in implementing their "Southern Expansion Doctrine" of the late 19th century. Japanese intentions were to turn Taiwan into a showpiece "model colony" with much effort made to improve the island's economy, public works, industry, cultural Japanization, and to support the necessities of Japanese military aggression in the Asia-Pacific.

                    Japanese administrative rule of Taiwan ended after the end of hostilities with Japan in August 1945 during the World War II period, and the territory was placed under the control of the Republic of China (ROC) with the issuing of General Order No. 1. Japan formally renounced its sovereignty over Taiwan in the Treaty of San Francisco effective April 28, 1952. The experience of Japanese rule, ROC rule, and the February 28 massacre of 1947 continue to affect issues such as Taiwan Retrocession Day, national identity, ethnic identity, and the formal Taiwan independence movement.

                    END OF EMPIRE – 100 days in 1945 that changed Asia and the World
                    http://www.endofempire.asia/0817-3-general-order-no-1-4/

              • Peter 1 …
                25 September 2021 at 4:36 pm

                Why does the USA need 10 battle groups, why do they spend more on arms than the next 10 nations combined.

                • RedLogix …
                  25 September 2021 at 4:57 pm

                  Because the Yanks learned in WW2 and the Cold War that if you do not act early and decisively to contain and crush totalitarian monsters – you pay a terrible price later.

                  Note carefully – this does not mean you have to like the Americans, or they should be immune to scrutiny or criticism. Feel free to go on hating them as per usual. But the rest of us will also observe on where you choose to remain silent.

                  • In Vino …
                    25 September 2021 at 8:57 pm

                    I might add that for many years after the Communists' very naughty win in China, Taiwan kept claiming to be the real China, and wanted to take the rest of China back. To make it worse, the silly USA decided that because Communism is so BAD, it had to officially recognise that poncey Taiwan Govt as the real China!

                    So piddly little Taiwan got recognised by the USA as the only one and real China, while the much more real Red China (which gave USA a good kick in the pants during Korea War) got no recognition at all.

                    One of the few good things Nixon did was to fix this idiocy up.

                    Who was suggesting that Taiwan has so much in common with NZ? Does Taiwan not still claim to be the true China Govt? Have they given uo that claim? At least NZ never made such a nonsensical claim.

                    Comedy! But we are both little and piddley in some ways.

                    • RedLogix …
                      25 September 2021 at 9:14 pm

                      I've said this elsewhere – in the aftermath of 1949 both the PRC and ROC made claim to each other's territory.

                      The difference in 2021 is that the ROC have long abandoned their claim when they became a democracy in the 70's, while the PRC has only doubled down on theirs.

                      Your contempt for New Zealand is noted.

                    • SPC …
                      25 September 2021 at 9:57 pm

                      Did Taiwan really become a democracy in the 1970's?

                    • RedLogix …
                      25 September 2021 at 10:13 pm

                      Correction noted – the process started in the mid-80's with the first proper opposition party and could be considered fully democratic by the 90's.

                    • In Vino …
                      25 September 2021 at 11:09 pm

                      Comedy, as I said. A Democracy by 1990! Wow!

                      I have scorn for ridiculous policies, like the USA insisting for 20 years or so that a tin-pot little island like Taiwan with the USA's favoured stooge Govt was the real Govt of the true China.

                      Taiwan never had any legitimate claim to China – lost by right of conquest with the approval of the vast majority of the people. Only US naval power prevented the same happening to Taiwan.

                      I have no contempt for NZ (your absurd idea).

                      I have a good deal of contempt for anti-Chinese people who admit no validity at all to China's claim to Taiwan. It is valid – but our Western policy has produced a situation where Taiwan now would be tragically affected by Chinese annexation.

                      The point is that this is not China's fault.

                  • KJT …
                    26 September 2021 at 3:13 pm

                    What? Are you going to stand us, "Marxists" who aren't joining in with the pointless, juvenile and ineffectual dick waving, against a wall.

          • Mark 3.2.1.2.4
            26 September 2021 at 4:46 am
            • Tell his military they can stand down from their preparations for imminent war
            • Stop expanding their already massive navy and airforce that now only serves an expansionist purpose
            • Stop their daily aggressive incursions into the airspace of other nations

            Response: What countries has the PRC invaded. How many has the US invaded. 'Massive navy and airforce'? LOL! So Western countries can have massive navy and airforce but Chinese can't? China suffered 100 years of humiliation and foreign invasion from Japan and the West. Surely they have the right do everything to avoid a repeat?

            • Apologise for years of openly bombastic diplomatic rhetoric that is intended to intimidate and bully
            • Stop using their state controlled media to run jingoistic articles advocating to use nuclear weapons to eradicate Japan for instance

            Response:

            'intimidate and bully?' LOL – John McCain bomb bomb Iran, 'Weapons of mass destruction' the actual invasion of countless countries around the globe.

            • Pull back from their incursions into India and cease to militarise the Tibetean plateau

            It was the Indians that went into China. The Tibetan plateau is part of China. They can do what they want there.

            • Dismantle the mass imprisonment of millions of Uighurs, and cease the demographic and cultural genocide of these people.

            All bullshit –in any case an internal problem. No Muslim country condemns China, but only the countries that have killed the most muslims in the past 20 years.

            • Stop using the BRI as a fig-leaf for neo-colonial expansionism across Asia-Pacific and Africa

            No country is forced into the BRI…its their sovereign choice. If you don;t do what the US says, the US rains bombs on you. The Chinese way is far superior.

            • Repudiate their territorial claim over Taiwan and the so called Nine Dashed Line in the South China Sea.

            LOL! Taiwan also claims to be part of China, and Taiwan also claims the entire South China Sea – on behalf of guess what entity – China.

            • KJT 3.2.1.2.4.1
              26 September 2021 at 3:25 pm

              US hypocrisy is still no excuse for China, preventing local Democracy in Hong Kong, the treatment of the Muslim minority in China, and the threats against Taiwan, which whatever the past history, is now an independent self Governing State.

              • SPC …
                26 September 2021 at 3:35 pm

                Suppressing the vote/undermining the Voting Rights Act, cutting funding for Family Planning/and now preparing the way step by step for a ban fertility treatments, allowing only skilled migrant labour/exploiting non voting illegals (new black slave class) for working class jobs (no sanctions on employers) let alone the millions of Americans under Patriot Act + surveillance regimes of the CT realm.

                Local democracy in Hong Kong was suppressed from 1840 to 1997.

                As for having to swallow the dead rat agreement for the return of its territory – there is license in contract law to revisit unequal agreements.

                American encouragement of democracy in Hong Kong backfired on locals, just as arms sales to Taiwan are now doing.

              • Mark …
                26 September 2021 at 5:08 pm

                There is no suppression of 'democracy' in Hong Kong.

                All China is doing is simply pushing through a national security law that was agreed with the British way before 1997.

                There are no issues with the treatment of the 'muslim minority'

                That is bs western propaganda. That is why not one Muslim country has come out and condemned China's actions in Xinjiang. Heck, even the Taliban and China are getting close

      • Mark 3.2.2
        26 September 2021 at 4:35 am

        "Now we get to pick a side – there will be no idealistic 'sitting it out as a neutral, non-nuclear, non-aligned' pixie dust land."

        No need to pick a side. If there is a shooting war it will be in the South China Sea or Taiwan Straits. A long way away from NZ

        The US will not go to war. Its all bluster. Americans are sick of foreign wars, and most Americans would not sacrifice their sons for Taiwan or the SCS.

        On the other hand, the CPC considers Taiwan and the SCS its own territory so will fight like fuck to keep them.

        • RedLogix 3.2.2.1
          26 September 2021 at 7:36 am

          On the other hand, the CPC considers Taiwan and the SCS its own territory so will fight like fuck to keep them.

          There you have it in your own words. Despite all your denials above you are committed to war in the event Taiwan declares it's independence.

          And who exactly is trying to 'take Taiwan off the PRC' – none other than of course the independent, democratic people and government of Taiwan themselves.

          Self-serving circular nonsense – all a plausible lie intended to deceive gullible people in the west. You wouldn't try this line in Asia itself – you'd get laughed out of the room.

          • Mark 3.2.2.1.1
            26 September 2021 at 11:15 am

            China has ALWAYS said it would fight like fuck to keep Taiwan. China has NEVER renounced the use of force. Publicly and loudly, in Asian and out of Asia.

            And at one stage Taiwan said it would take over all of mainland China

            • RedLogix 3.2.2.1.1.1
              26 September 2021 at 11:29 am

              Well there you have it. Not much ambiguity about that is there.

              What you're also not mentioning is the full on blast of internal propaganda aimed at the mainland Chinese using the most openly bellicose language to inflame sentiments against the independence of Taiwan. You assume that because I cannot read Mandarin that I do not have contacts who do.

              And at one stage Taiwan said it would take over all of mainland China

              This is not the policy of the current govt in Taipei and it would be quite hilarious to think the mighty PRC feel at all threatened by this,

    • Scud 3.3
      25 September 2021 at 6:47 pm

      Don’t know what scares me the most:

      Australia getting SSN’s and the containment policy of China fails when it successfully invades Taiwan or the US & it’s regional Allies aka Japan, Sth Korea & Australia get such a beating they slowly pulled back to their respective countries like we did in WW2 when Japan achieved overmatched in the Pacific when it came a battle of survival between 42 & 43.

      NZ RW Political Party’s with their Supporters & MFAT’s Trade at all costs Policy & dammed the consequences to NZ long term & or

      NZ’s left burying its head in sand as the Sth Pacific Security Environment has changed forever on Thursday morning. Then acting like a drunk on the Roulette Table putting his/her last $50 on Red expecting that diplomacy will win on the Day & if not expecting the UN would ride over the hill like the US 7th CAV to protect the NZ as it’s the only plan in town?

      While not considering planning for a worst scenario because a National Security & Economic Security Plan for NZ is all to hard & it means we the Left have to sallow a few dead rats like the right would have to do as well.

      • RedLogix 3.3.1
        25 September 2021 at 8:33 pm

        Thank you. So often it's the people who have put their lives on the line for the security of their nation who get these things right.

        NZ’s left burying its head in sand as the Sth Pacific Security Environment has changed forever on Thursday morning.

        In terms of an Asia-Pacific war with the PRC, immediate neighbours like Taiwan, Japan, Malaysia, Vietnam, Singapore and Indonesia while capable, would absorb a terrible punishment from the Chinese airforce and navy. They're just too close.

        There are just three countries capable of standing up to a militant China and surviving – the US, India and now Australia. By next Thursday Australia could have a tranche of the latest Block Tomahawk cruise missiles stationed near Darwin and capable of sinking Chinese merchant ships in the Straits of Malacca.

        From his perspective Xi Xinping sees a western world divided, often decadent, corrupt, weakened and unwilling to defend it's interests and allies in SE Asia. Like all bullies he holds his targets in contempt and has calculated we will let him invade Taiwan without much resistance.

        The goal here is deterrence and containment. Everyone in SE Asia knows that if the PRC get away with expropriating Taiwan they will be next. Everyone in the region knows that the claim 'that Taiwan is part of China' is a plausible lie intended to fool gullibles in the west.

        As you've said before, CCP strategists will have closely studied Imperial Japan's defeat and will understand two things – not to repeat the Japanese mistakes and that despite these mistakes just how close they came to winning the whole of Asia Pacific anyway. The CCP will be convinced they can do better – and indeed it's very likely they would.

        Then acting like a drunk on the Roulette Table putting his/her last $50 on Red expecting that diplomacy will win on the Day & if not expecting the UN would ride over the hill like the US 7th CAV to protect the NZ as it’s the only plan in town?

        As the most consistently pro-UN writer here – this is depressingly true. A decade ago one might have put some faith in a rules based UN order saving the day. But with an impotent UN incapable of even giving Taiwan independent recognition – well that cavalry ain't leaving barracks either.

        • In Vino 3.3.1.1
          25 September 2021 at 9:22 pm

          In reality, the USA was not altruistically defending Australia and NZ in the battle of the Coral Sea: they were defending their own interests, which happened to coincide with ours. Lucky for us.

          The Japanese did not in fact have the troops or resources available to invade Australia (the US had far more troops in Vietnam than the Japanese used in the Pacific, and the US still lost in Vietnam) and it would not have helped them with their big battles in China and Burma. It is truly unlikely that they would have bothered – despite all the scaremongering here in NZ.

          Only after the defeat of the USA and Britain would we have eventually had to submit – sheer unreality. That was never going to happen.

          Taiwan has persistently claimed to be the true China, even after Nixon finally recognised the real China. Small wonder that China claims Taiwan. A big dead rat there, Scud. And before China went Communist (how naughty!) the USA recognised Tibet as the 5th province of the great nation of China. Another dead rat.

          • RedLogix 3.3.1.1.1
            25 September 2021 at 9:53 pm

            The Japanese did not in fact have the troops or resources available to invade Australia

            Their immediate goal was to deny the US the ability to use Townsville and Darwin as safe bases to operate from, and to then prevent Australian troops from returning back from operations in the ME and European theatres.

            After that they could have subjugated the domestic populations of both AU and NZ at their leisure. A relatively modest task in comparison to what they'd already achieved in China and the across the whole of SE Asia already.

            • In Vino 3.3.1.1.1.1
              25 September 2021 at 11:17 pm

              Only after the defeat of USA and Britain could they have made such a major new step. As I said and Yamamoto knew – never going to happen.

          • Scud 3.3.1.1.2
            26 September 2021 at 12:47 am

            The Japs are were highly unlikely to invade Australia not for the lack of Troops, but for the necessity of Logistics of supplying of the troops on the ground. Even now most of the key access points & main arterial routes in Nth’ern Oz are still weather dependent even during the wet season, it was something we were taught on my Sub2 for Airfield Defence Guard (Airforce Infantry) SNCO and we walk the ground up at Weipa aka RAAF bare Base Scherger. The main arterial route is a class 3 rd (a form dirt rd to Pt Douglas which is closed in the wet, having drove it when I was in the AFDS Support Flt and it was rough as guts.

            The Japanese Concept of Operations Plan was to contain Australia by seizing PNG, Bismarck Sea, down the Solly’s, New Hebrides & the Coral Sea. What would’ve happened had the Japs won the Battle of the Coral is anyone’s guess?

            My assumption they would’ve had a crack at New Caledonia & swing left through the Sth Pacific which was weakly held by NZ & US Forces. But we were lucky that the IJN were led by very conservative Cdrs who unlike Yamamoto wanted to be Tojo in 1904, but had they not stuck with their prewar Operations Plan of chasing the Remains of the RN Far East Fleet in the Indian Ocean. But had they use their I Boats (Subs) in the Indian Ocean & use the Combined Fleet with its 4-6 or so Fleet Carriers & Battleship SQN in the Sth Pacific as Yamamoto wanted, it as the situation was in their favour as it could’ve completely unhinged the Allied War effort in the Pacific.

            The reason why the Yanks lost Vietnam, is the same reasons why the lost Iraq & Afghanistan, they can’t fight a COIN War to save themselves nor do their Politicians understand the concept on How, Why When & Where fight a COIN War.

            The Battle of the Coral Sea (incl the Bombing of Darwin) is a very big thing here in Oz and it studied at all levels of Command of the ADF as it was a close run thing. Thence the renew ADF interest of its former Naval & RAAF Base in Manus Is.

            If we can prevent war by using Jaw Jaw i’m all for it as I know what the alternative is & it’s hell. But we on the left must also prepare what direction we must take if Jaw Jaw fails just like when poor old Neville had to make in the late 30’s when he realised it’s unlikely he could turn Hitler. My gut feeling is we are heading towards that direction that poor old Neville faced, that we are facing with China atm. Unfortunately it’s all new ball game now in our neck of the woods with the Oz SSN’s. But relying on Plan A is just plan nuts & stupid especially if it goes to shit as Ships, Aircraft & more importantly the trained Men & Women don’t grow on trees.

            • RedLogix 3.3.1.1.2.1
              26 September 2021 at 1:21 am

              Thanks for the informed details there Scud. I accept that the IJN was unlikely to invade Aus/NZ in the near term – their immediate goal was to deny the US access to safe bases in northern Australia. And they damn nearly accomplished this.

              All Japan had to do in 42-43 was isolate Australia and in the event the war in Europe had gone their way it would have only been a matter of time before they could have occupied a defenseless AU/NZ with relative ease.

              I must confess it's only recently that I've read up on the Solomon and PNG campaigns – and just how astonishingly brutal and close the outcomes were. Whole battles literally pivoted on the most random details that could have so easily gone the other way. We grew up thinking that the Allied victory in the Pacific was somehow a given – it was no such bloody thing.

              • Gezz …
                26 September 2021 at 1:39 am

                We owed a great historical debt to the US for the thousands of their young soldiers' lives that were expended expelling the Japanese troops from the islands they occupied during WW2 to build harbours & airstrips for their naval & air fleets.

                Have you visited the Marine Memorial at QE2 Park in Paekakariki, RL?

                It records, among other things, the numbers of marines who drowned during a tragic beach landing craft training exercise disaster that took place in far too rough seas.

                Also the time someone in the training camp there accidentally fired a mortar round into the town of "Paekak", from memory, fortunately, with no casualties.

                And – as the US is mainly a nation of beef eaters – how much they looked foward to each new supply of US beef that made it to the camp, after months of having to each lamb or mutton, which they referred to as "damned mountain goat!"

                Wellington in particular owes the US Army (or it might have been Marines) engineers big time for constructing our magnificent & very scenic Coastal Highway from Paekakariki to Pukerua Bay.

              • Gezza …
                26 September 2021 at 1:46 am

                [Sorry Mods: Left the "a" off "Gezza". First reply gone into Moderation. Can you delete it?]

                @ RL. We've owed a great historical debt to the US for the thousands of their young soldiers' lives that were expended expelling the Japanese troops from the islands they occupied during WW2 to build harbours & airstrips for their naval & air fleets.

                Have you visited the Marine Memorial at QE2 Park in Paekakariki, RL?

                It records, among other things, the numbers of marines who drowned during a tragic beach landing craft training exercise disaster that took place in far too rough seas.

                Also the time someone in the training camp there accidentally fired a mortar round into the town of "Paekak", from memory, fortunately, with no casualties.

                And – as the US is mainly a nation of beef eaters – how much they looked foward to each new supply of US beef that made it to the camp, after months of having to eat NZ lamb or mutton, which they referred to as "damned mountain goat!"

                Wellington in particular owes the US Army (or it might have been Marines) engineers big time for constructing our magnificent & very scenic Coastal Highway from Paekakariki to Pukerua Bay.

        • Ad 3.3.1.2
          25 September 2021 at 9:34 pm

          I think you forgot Japan in there.

        • SPC 3.3.1.3
          25 September 2021 at 10:20 pm

          It's own status as a self governing part of the one China meant the UN was never going to recognise Taiwan independence.

          Nixon realised winning the Cold War with Russia required a sacrifice. Yet neither Trump nor Biden has the IQ to step up in any comparable way today.

          • RedLogix 3.3.1.3.1
            25 September 2021 at 10:45 pm

            It's own status as a self governing part of the one China

            What 'one China'?

            Some years back before we moved to Australia, I did a number of tramping trips with a very senior retired Taiwanese govt official and learned a great deal from him. Kiwis really don't know much about the place – and yet we share a great deal of cultural similarity. Moreover after the great Maoist destruction of traditional Chinese heritage on the mainland, Taiwan can be considered the surviving remnant of it, a precious fragment now threatened and vulnerable. Modern Taiwan is a thriving, capable and wonderful nation – well worth visiting and getting to understand. It's what mainland China could and should have been if it was not for the communists.

            There is no question that the people of Taiwan consider themselves Chinese – and they can make a strong case for this based on their unbroken chain of upholding and protecting this heritage. But absolutely they reject the idea this means they must be consumed by the CCP.

            The reason why the CCP want to crush Taiwan can be explained in one word – democracy. They brutally stamped it out internally at Tiananmen Square and betrayed formal promises in order to crush it in Hong Kong. The idea that the people should be able to hold their leaders to account is an absolute anathema to the CCP who will reach out to undermine, damage and eradicate democratic governments anywhere they can reach.

            The Taiwan question will neatly cleave the western world left into two camps – those who hold to the concept of socialism within a democratically accountable framework – and those who dream of a marxist revolution and permanent power.

            • SPC 3.3.1.3.1.1
              25 September 2021 at 10:54 pm

              The real war is to ensure the security of western democracy, and otherwise due international regime respect for national sovereignty. This is not served by a NATO stick in the territorial face of historic Russia, nor by anything of the like to historic China – whether via Hong Kong or Taiwan.

              • In Vino …
                25 September 2021 at 11:29 pm

                We have to learn from History – which nobody generally does.

                Nations have revolutions and ideologies, but each nation's cultural style of rule tends to creep back and new theories like communism or democracy get subverted – the nation reverts to its natural culture. Putin could be seen as the newest autocratic Czar: Stalin as the last one.
                Despite its half-forgotten communist ideology, this Chinese Govt is growing stronger, and behaving much as all the stronger dynasties did in the past.

                We preach democracy, but practise our usual imperialist hypocrisy.

                Democracy is good for us, but what we foster elsewhere can be a different matter.

            • Mark 3.3.1.3.1.2
              26 September 2021 at 4:27 am

              Red Logix. Your comment is daft.

              Taiwanese 'independence' simply means Taiwan declares they are not Chinese, not that they are not PRC Chinese. That is what mainland China is against.

              • RedLogix …
                26 September 2021 at 8:29 am

                The actual situation is more complex than you pretend it it.

                For all practical purposes the current governing coalition in Taipei policy is that "The position of the Pan-Green Coalition of the ROC is that Taiwan is an independent sovereign state named "Republic of China", and Taiwan is not part of "China".

                And this position is supported strongly by the Taiwanese people themselves. They and everyone else in the region watched events in Hong Kong unfold with dismay and are more determined than ever not to become vassals of China's 'President for Life'.

            • Mark 3.3.1.3.1.3
              26 September 2021 at 4:31 am

              The Taiwanese 'question' has as much to do with the Western world, as the Quebec question has to do with China.

              The Western world has declared forever that Taiwan is part of China. Indeed the US recognised Taiwan as China up until 1979.

              "The idea that the people should be able to hold their leaders to account is an absolute anathema to the CCP who will reach out to undermine, damage and eradicate democratic governments anywhere they can reach."

              Bullshit —the CPC does not give a flying fuck how NZ or Australia governs itself. Its always the West trying to change China, not the other way round.

        • Mark 3.3.1.4
          26 September 2021 at 4:37 am

          Everyone in the region knows that the claim 'that Taiwan is part of China' is a plausible lie intended to fool gullibles in the west.

          Taiwanese call themselves part of China – just look at their passport cover. And the PRC considers Taiwan part of China. And the USA recognised the Taiwanese government as the sole government of all of China up until 1949. And all Western countries abide, or at least pay lip service to the one China policy.

          • Gezza 3.3.1.4.1
            26 September 2021 at 4:58 am

            .
            “Since the Kuomintang (KMT) retreat from mainland China in 1949, the island of Taiwan has firmly been held by the Republic of China (ROC) who continued to hold de facto sovereignty over the island. Though the legality of the KMT takeover of Taiwan has long been under question, the ROC was able to maintain its status as representing “China” in the United Nations until 1971, when it lost its seat to the mainland People’s Republic of China (PRC). Without an ROC surrender, the PRC has sought to reduce the political legitimacy of a formally independent Taiwan, through economic and diplomatic coercion in a policy it dubbed the ‘One China Principle’.

            Although both countries still view themselves as the legitimate representative of ‘China’, since the 1990s, there has been a rising movement for the formal recognition of a separate Taiwanese independence and identity. A view in Taiwan is that the Republic of China and the People’s Republic of China are both sovereign, thus forming “two Chinas”, or “one China, one Taiwan”. Nevertheless, there are grounds for the notion that the PRC and the ROC/Taiwan have undergone such different paths, that it is impossible to reconcile the growing Taiwanese identity with a singular ‘China’.”

            https://globalriskinsights.com/2021/06/the-difficult-case-of-taiwans-sovereignty/

            • RedLogix 3.3.1.4.1.1
              26 September 2021 at 8:36 am

              Precisely. An intelligent PRC leadership would have recognised this reality by now – instead under Xi Xingping it's doubled down on the rhetoric, intensified the jingoistic fervour and staked a great deal of his personal credibility and legitimacy on absorbing Taiwan.

              However murky and contested the origins of this question – the reality is that Taiwan has been a separately governed entity since 1949 and forcing a 're-unification' against the will of the Taiwanese people has zero legitimacy.

        • Patricia Bremner 3.3.1.5
          26 September 2021 at 9:48 am

          As the most consistently pro-UN writer here

          Well if the USA had paid their dues things may have been different!! But when they disagreed with the collective UN they used force.

          You present your view of the world with a deal of acumen, but facts are facts.

        • Mark 3.3.1.6
          26 September 2021 at 1:07 pm

          The goal here is deterrence and containment. Everyone in SE Asia knows that if the PRC get away with expropriating Taiwan they will be next.

          Oh for heavens sake, the PRC has no interest in taking over all of SE Asia and it would be militarily unrealistic.

          They are utterly committed to Taiwan remaining part of the Chinese nation (not necessarily the PRC – yet), and that is a policy from way way way back.

          No big deal or surprises here. Afterall Taiwan wanted to take back the Chinese mainland originally.

          If you think the average New Zealander gives a flying fuck about dying to defend Taiwanese, you are deranged

          • Scud 3.3.1.6.1
            26 September 2021 at 5:00 pm

            “Oh for heavens sake, the PRC has no interest in taking over all of SE Asia and it would be militarily unrealistic.”

            Well someone should tell Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia & India then. That China isn’t a threat to their respective countries? As the bulk of their Regular Armies, Airforces & in Vietnam’s case it Naval Assets are in the Nth, as it might something to do with the Middle Kingdom during the Middle Ages, including post 1949 as those countries respective both oral & written histories as they have clearly not forgotten Chinese invasions over the centuries or after 1949.

            Just like the Eastern Europeans & Nordic Countries of Russia’s past intentions & the same could be said of the US since the end of WW2.

            [fixed minor typo in e-mail address]

        • Scud 3.3.1.7
          26 September 2021 at 2:28 pm

          My faith in the UN, Humanity and Nations keeping their word that they will keep up their end of the negotiations died in East Timor in 99, when I was a part the Chap7 Peacekeeping Force INTERFET99- 00 and the remains of this carcass was buried, cremated & nuke during my 1-2 wk stint in Sth Sudan if not sooner in Middle East Region.

          I know are a number of individuals here on The Standard who comment & write the odd post, still have faith in the UN, Humanity & that Nations keep their word during & after negotiations have gone in favour of them or against them.

          Unfortunately, these individuals are going to hit Moral, Ethical, Religious ie (Quaker, Methodist & Presbyterian) Fork in the rd, Cross rd or the Crossing the Rubicon in the next 5-10yrs if Jaw Jaw fails to prevent War War aka the Two Way Range.

          It is a bitter & sour pill to swallow with a very bad after taste, which is something I’m still struggling to understand or come to grips with the “Why, the Who & the How” Yesterday, Today, Tomorrow & into the Future. Some days it get the better of me of these decisions made by Politicians & that of my immediate Commanders or made by me as a Section/ Patrol Commander have made or should’ve, could’ve or shouldn’t & or shouldn’t etc, etc.

  4. Herodotus 4
    25 September 2021 at 8:50 am

    So we have had a few issues with some breaking covid rules, I am yet to read of anyone being convicted and what penalties they were imposed. So why increase the fines? This could be seen as a means to appease those in lockdown that are baying for blood, you could be forgiven in thinking that this is a right wing governments response 😱.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/09/government-significantly-increases-fines-for-breaking-covid-19-rules.html

    • Patricia Bremner 4.1
      25 September 2021 at 9:37 am

      Herodotus, More concern at the anti vax group joining any protest group here, as they have in Australia imo.

    • Anne 4.2
      25 September 2021 at 9:51 am

      I think the main reason there have been few convictions is because like everything else, court cases are affected by lockdowns and are running way behind schedule. One notable anti-masker woman in Auckland who was arrested about 4 to 5 weeks ago will not face proceedings until mid to late October.

      Easy enough to work that one out.

      • Gezza 4.2.1
        25 September 2021 at 11:12 am

        Good point Anne. 👍🏼

        Altho I think quite a high number of people will contine to get caught breaching lockdowns. Folk are getting tired of their seclusion & taking risks.

        Not a justification, by any means, but none of us has ever faced anything like these socially deprived enforced “home detentions” in our lives before. They’re necessary, but far from enjoyable.

        • Descendant Of Smith 4.2.1.1
          25 September 2021 at 6:57 pm

          I think it is the other way. People have got tired of people breaching and are now dobbing them in. People were always breaching.

          Saw it during first lockdown – middle of night traffic, daytime helicopters.

  5. Gezza 5
    25 September 2021 at 9:16 am

    Everybody should have a stream, I reckon.

    Sarah's an excellent swimmer. I put a bread chunk down expecting a pukeko would amble along the path over my fence & find it. Once I saw her little face peek out from the foliage, I slowly pulled out my cellcam & beyond that hardly made another movement. She probably didn't realise I was there….

  6. Anne 6
    25 September 2021 at 9:39 am

    It looks like restrictions are coming for unvaccinated NZers. Great stuff. About time. There will need to be a special exemption for the immune compromised though.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/the-90-project-pm-jacinda-ardern-on-a-no-jab-no-entry-scheme-and-childrens-vaccinations/GYRJDOOQOOH2EMSO7QQEGBUKDQ/

    • Maurice 6.1
      25 September 2021 at 2:23 pm

      Surely they need to be in permanent lockdown and excluded from society ….

      For the greater good?

      • KJT 6.1.1
        26 September 2021 at 3:45 pm

        If enough get vaccinated we have space to allow those that cannot.

        Whether we have the space for those that won't while still protecting those that cannot, remains in question.

        It actually looks promising in NZ, as it appears the certainly won't are in single figures, unlike the USA where in some States it is as high as 50%>

    • Cricklewood 6.2
      25 September 2021 at 3:53 pm

      Great another set of rules that are going to disproportionately effect Maori and Polynesians and no doubt other marginalized groups… just what NZ society needs…

      Cheered on no doubt by the masses, the explosion of racism relating to the outbreak in South Auckland in facebook groups has been unreal, sickening actually…

      But I guess that doesnt matter to those who've got secure accommodation, stable employment probably living in a leafy central suburbs and toasting your massive capital gains…

      This is going to end badly long term there'll be massive schisms in society which I doubt we'll ever truly recover from…

      • Anne 6.2.1
        25 September 2021 at 4:47 pm

        What the hell has that diatribe got to do with the problem of unvaccinated people? Anyone who refuses to be vaccinated – whether they are white, black, yellow, green or brindle – should have restrictions placed on them so the rest of the community can go about their lives in relative safety. Simple as that.

        And for your edification, the majority of anti-vaxxers are white so can't see what the subject of racism and poverty has to do with it except to infer I'm one of the masses ganging up on them on Facebook. I don't do Facebook precisely for the reason you have stated. As far as I can tell it is mainly a cesspit of conspiracy theorists, racists, rednecks and ignoramuses.

        • Cricklewood 6.2.1.1
          25 September 2021 at 5:04 pm

          To clarify im not infering anything about you.

          Also Im not talking about white anti vaxxers…. im talking about communities and demographics of people who for a bunch or reasons are already falling behind in vaccination rates. Mainly Maori and Polynesian in younger age cohorts. They already get the shitty end of the stick when it comes to education, health, justice, housing etc etc this is going to be another policy that drives that wedge deeper…

          • Visubversa 6.2.1.1.1
            25 September 2021 at 5:30 pm

            Well with Tamaki and Te Koha dripping poison in their ears for the last 8 months or so for political purposes, I can understand why there is a need to make up for the misinformation they have been receiving. The H2R people have been doing good work, and the older ones are getting jabbed at much the same rate as other demographics. It is the younger demographic that needs the catch up and there is work being done there also.

            • Cricklewood 6.2.1.1.1.1
              25 September 2021 at 5:45 pm

              Yep the likes of the self appointed Bishop are a big problem, I can forsee a time if we go the route of a vaccine passport someone is going to have to decide if churchs are included in that. Exempt churches many will be upset, include them and that will play right into someone like Brian Tamaki's hands.

              I just dont think it works out in the long run.

      • gsays 6.2.2
        25 September 2021 at 5:06 pm

        Good ole Dr Seuss lays it out for us.

      • KJT 6.2.3
        26 September 2021 at 3:49 pm

        With initiatives such as the Shot Bros, and the likes of the Ngati Hine vaccination centre, I don't see Māori/Pacifica vaccinations lagging much behind Pakeha, for long.

  7. JeffB 7
    25 September 2021 at 10:44 am

    Judith gave a reasonable interview on The Nation this morning, must have had some training. Will be interesting to see what’s in their ‘peer reviewed’ COVID Plan coming out next week. I wonder if it was Des Gorman who they used.

    • Gezza 7.1
      25 September 2021 at 11:05 am

      Must have a watch. Either tomorrow morning, or maybe later on their On Demand Three Now option.

      Will tell you what I think.

      Hopefully she’s listening to what see’s actually saying in this interview . Earlier this week on one tv appearance she referred to NZ’s Covid response “sittings” when she obviously meant to say settings.

      Tbh she blurts out so many verbal bloopers like that I reckon either she’s really actually a bit of a doofus, or that she panics in important or difficult interviews & loses track. All the interviewer has to do is talk over her a couple of times, shoot some rapid-fire questions at her & she seems to come apart.

    • Stephen D 7.2
      25 September 2021 at 11:16 am

      A very gentle interview from Tova. Marginal pushing about internal politics. The rest could have been a puff piece.

      Maybe 3 didn’t want to potentially alienate a senior politician, so went easy.

      Judith came across as a reasonable human being. Although she does have a habit of smiling at the wrong time.

      • Gezza 7.2.1
        25 September 2021 at 11:40 am

        That’s interesting. Tova’s gone for her jugular at various other times.

        Even John Campbell started off giving her a bit of a grilling earlier this week on Breakfast on One. But then backed off & let her have her say uniterrupted.

        Wonder if the word’s gone out that if you keep giving her a savaging you won’t get any more interviews?

        I don’t do farcebook much. Does Collins post tame interviews or soliloquies there?

      • Gezza 7.2.2
        25 September 2021 at 12:33 pm

        That's an excellent interview with Collins. Best I've seen from her ever since her appointment as National's leader, I think.

        Interesting comments she makes about the new Police Teams just announced (ARTs by another name after the Police Commissioner knows he got it wrong, by caving in to pressure from some quarters & cancelling the ARTs)

        Quite a wide-ranging interview. She doesn't disgrace herself.

        Tova even grills her at the end, telling her that National MPs are leaking their unhappiness with Collins to her. Collins says she's never seen them happier or more focussed on doing their jobs.

        When Tova threw her some curve ball questions about her low polling, her senior office staff leaving, & recent public criticisms by her former Chief Press Officer, she remained unfazed & gave quite reasonable answers.

        Newshub's published the full interview already, in the embedded video here:

        https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/09/could-have-been-prevented-collins-says-nz-too-slow-to-extract-afghan-allies-after-man-beaten-to-death-by-taliban.html

        • Muttonbird 7.2.2.1
          25 September 2021 at 2:00 pm

          It won't last.

          One swallow doesn't make a summer. A leopard can't change its spots. Can't teach an old dog new tricks, etc, etc.

          Collins is 62 years old. She's been in parliament for 20 years and was a lawyer before that. Media training at this point is clearly going against everything she has built herself upon, and is papering over the not inconsiderable cracks in her ethical and behavioural make up.

          She may very well not be a spiteful and vindictive bully, but that is certainly the way she comes across to the public.

          • Gezza 7.2.2.1.1
            25 September 2021 at 2:29 pm

            Yes, I agree. I find her erratic as well. So obviously far from being suitable PM material only the truly deluded + dedicated National supporter would give her even a snowflake's chance in hell of getting her Party back into power. Unlikely to see the year out. Must be deaf to the obvious sounds of the knives sharpening.

            • chris T 7.2.2.1.1.1
              25 September 2021 at 2:59 pm

              Only my opinion, but think she is one of those people who cravws the job a bit too much more than looking inward and seeing if they could actually handle the thing and the spotlight.

              I actually think she was a pretty good senior MP, but leader material was kind of obvious from the start never going to work out very well.

              Especially against Ardern.

              To much clash of persona angry against a persona of nice.

              What they are both actually like in real life would be interesting to see.

      • KJT 7.2.3
        26 September 2021 at 3:52 pm

        Notable contrast with the constant interruptions, the insertion of their own ill informed opinions and eye rolling from Tova and other media interviewers when interviewing Government MP's.

  8. Herodotus 8
    25 September 2021 at 12:06 pm

    From chats to friends around, many are struggling with demotivated/depressed children. How can these children ( and adults) get some interaction between friends without meeting covertly, reminder that should level 2 remain until school returns that will be over 7 weeks ?

    I cannot see Auckland being in level 2 before holidays, as should we be granted level 2 status result will be mass exodus as Aks spread around the country. Perhaps as an idea to throw out there, what about some give? Keep the boundary in tact but allow bubble mix over the holidays.

    • Gypsy 8.1
      25 September 2021 at 2:57 pm

      I take a walk each day for approximately one hour, and local parks are usually busy with children/teens hanging out. This morning we took our dog to Taipari Strand in Te Atatu, and there were family groups and teens out walking. Like you, I'm concerned about the mental health of our young people (in fact of everyone) at this time.

    • Cricklewood 8.2
      25 September 2021 at 4:00 pm

      Imo if your children are struggling with the isolation fuck the rules if you are able to extend the bubble so there's some social contact.

      • Forget now 8.2.1
        25 September 2021 at 10:53 pm

        No; Cricklewood, let's not say "fuck the rules", it is possible to extend bubbles in even Delta PAL3, without resorting to such self-entitled nihilism. But then that's easy for me to say down here in Ōtepoti – where I have had kids back at school for a couple of weeks, and spent much free time out and about with scorching weather recently (not been on site a lot because beaches are not at all friendly to mobile devices what with sand and brine).

        Also, kids are not just prone to depression just because of the COVID19 pandemic, the ongoing climate catastrophes (of which, SARS-CoV-2 emergence is but a single example) are quite enough for that!

        A total of 15,543 people began the survey, 10,000 (68%) completed it. There was an even split in terms of gender (51% male, 49% female) and age group (49% aged 16-20; 51% aged 21-25 years)…

        Many endorsed a range of negative emotions, with over 50% of respondents saying they had felt afraid, sad, anxious, angry, powerless, helpless, and/or guilty. The emotions least often reported were optimism and indifference. Respondents endorsed a range of negative thoughts, with 77% saying the future was frightening. Among those who said they talked with others about climate change (81·2% of the sample), almost half (48·4%) reported that other people had ignored or dismissed them. Results for thoughts and feelings about climate change varied significantly by country but were strikingly present in all populations…

        Participants tended to rate government response negatively… Over 60% of the sample disagreed with every positive statement and agreed with every negative statement, with significant differences among countries. Across all countries, participants reported greater feelings of betrayal than of reassurance

        https://poseidon01.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=881031104121114079066098019026125088005017063054033022103011063061126010027090018009077044118083080033031047116097064069074090044023007113118003001009087080090062065048062012030095122071117015009000011026069002037117029007106127110126103082031086093096022011115068004084127100031077097116091&EXT=pdf&INDEX=TRUE

    • KJT 8.3
      26 September 2021 at 3:55 pm

      My grandkids loved lockdown. All those adults at home playing with them.

    • Macro 9.1
      25 September 2021 at 1:26 pm

      Essentially yes. There is a good analysis of the thinking by Ministers and the Ministry of Health here. There are pros and cons – the teams are required to repay some of the cost they do take up some of the space in MIQ. Ministers have sought to move teams out of designated MIQ hotels to other spaces, but there are problems with doing that, including insufficient staff and inadequate facilities. If they were to cancel visiting teams when the country is for the most part covid free, there would be hell to pay. Not from myself, but I know my neighbours (and many like them) would be livid. What else would there be for them to live for?

    • Macro 10.1
      25 September 2021 at 4:51 pm

      Poor Lauren Boebert she had to steal from her campaign funds to pay her rent and utilities and she clearly can't afford paying anybody to proofread her stuff. laugh

  11. joe90 11
    25 September 2021 at 3:45 pm

    Strip mining the high seas.

    The Associated Press with Spanish-language broadcaster Univision accompanied the Ocean Warrior this summer on an 18-day voyage to observe up close for the first time the Chinese distant water fishing fleet on the high seas off South America.

    The vigilante patrol was prompted by an international outcry last summer when hundreds of Chinese vessels were discovered fishing for squid near the long-isolated Galapagos Islands, a UNESCO world heritage site that inspired 19th-century naturalist Charles Darwin and is home to some of the world’s most endangered species, from giant tortoises to hammerhead sharks.

    China’s deployment to this remote expanse is no accident. Decades of overfishing have pushed its overseas fleet, the world’s largest, ever farther from home. Officially capped at 3,000 vessels, the fleet might actually consist of thousands more. Keeping such a sizable flotilla at sea, sometimes for years at a time, is at once a technical feat made possible through billions in state subsidies and a source of national pride akin to what the U.S. space program was for generations of Americans.

    https://apnews.com/article/china-oceans-overfishing-squid-294ff1e489589b2510cc806ec898c78f

    • Gezza 11.1
      26 September 2021 at 12:55 am

      Thanks joe. I found that very interesting & informative. Let's hope that UN International Treaty On Fishing the video refers to gets finalised & passed before too much longer

      Altho if countries like China happily sign up to it, it probably won't amount to a hill of beans if their long-range fleet fishing boats continue switching off their trackers & carry on illegally fishing other countries' EEZs.

      Also the increasingly muscular -& frequently even outright aggressive – posture PLAN – their navy – is adopting might end up seeing China's ever-growing number of huge, well-armed, seagoing Coast Guard ships involved in confrontations with naval assets of other countries coming to challenge Chinese fishing ships operating within their territorial waters.

    • Scud 11.2
      26 September 2021 at 5:50 pm

      Ah, The bastards are back up to their usual shenanigans again, that’s the 3rd straight yr they’ve rape & pillage around the Galapagos Is. Last yr was the worst the locals, Government Bodies & the various NGO’s, with some saying if there is another yr like this by the Chinese Fishing Fleet in 2021. They certainly believe that the Chinese Fishing Fleet would case the biodiversity around the Galapagos Is to totally collapse.

      Gezza,

      The Chinese Fishing Fleet were using the same tactics in NZ’s EEZ for 2-3yrs straight possibly now Nth to Nth East of the Kermadec’s out of Fiji’s EZZ & Tonga via the Minerva Reefs up to a depth of between 50- 100kms inside NZ’s EEZ Illegally & even more concerning is the reported use of the Chinese Coast Guard Ships (these Ships are the size or bigger of the current RNZN ANZAC Frigates with a Combat Mission System & Intelligence, Surveillance & Reconnaissance also known as ISR Capability to match the ANZAC’s) the necessary overwatch incase the Kiwis coming looking.

      Given the NZDF lack of resources to Enforce NZ’s EEZ through the lack of funding & lack from NZG over the decades. Countries like China & to a lesser degree Sth Korea & Taiwan including a of EU Countries in the Southern Ocean . See NZ’s EEZ as a rich juicy target to be raped & pillage, and especially now since last Thursday when Australia said it’s now going to purchase a number of SSN’s. Expect to see the Chinese Fishing Fleet & it various Coast Guard/ Spy Ships aka start mapping the sea floor as the start poking down NZ’s Eastern edge of its EEZ.

      As it’s easier to deploy its SSN’s & possible Bomber Subs through the backdoor of NZ and possibly shot the gap between Stewart Island and Campbell Island to patrol around the RAN Fleet Bases & off Adelaide’s ASC Dockyard than trying to head down the Tasman or through the Indonesian Archipelago.

      As I’ve said already the Sth Pacific & NZ Security Environment has changed forever now since Thursday when Australia announced it will now purchase a number of SSN’s & to paraphrase the AoC 11 Group AVM Sir Keith Parks at the start of BoB “The Bastards won’t stop now until we either surrender or we knock’m out of the sky”

      Btw, I’m not saying we should sunk them Willy nilly, but the NZG should now onwards Publicly Announce the Chinese Fishing Fleet when they are caught illegally in NZ’s EEZ & not through the usual back channels of quite diplomacy. Also that should go for everyone else for that matter regardless of who the are if it’s ship or a sub.

  13. Forget now 13
    25 September 2021 at 11:29 pm

    Daylight savings in my house already (though not officially till 2am tomorrow) which has me a bit off kilter, but at least kids in bed early for once. Some weird stories out of Te Anau about going fulltime into summer, which seems to be largely marketing fluff. But then, Te Waipounamu is more of a South-West Island than a South Island to Te Ika-a-Māui. Even Ōtautahi (CHCH) is further west of anything up in the Big Fish short of Cape Reinga.

    Rather than perpetually staying in Daylight Saving Time, the SW Islands might be better to adopt a similar timezone UTC+11 as "New Caledonia" (that other western outcrop of the largely sunken continent of Zelandia), or the Solomons. Which would still allow a local Daylight Saving Time, which has advantages in such a temperate zone with substantial seasonal variations (though some dislike it).

    Time is an illusion. Luchtime doubly so.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/452292/push-for-permanent-daylight-savings-in-southland

    https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/southland/te-anau-time-tricksters-hope-stunt-will-attract-tourists

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/World_Time_Zones_Map.png

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