Open mike 26/10/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 26th, 2021 - 184 comments
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184 comments on “Open mike 26/10/2021 ”

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  1. chris T 1
    26 October 2021 at 7:07 am

    Update on the Baldwin shooting

    You have to be kidding. You couldn't make this up.

    "Members of the film crew working on the set where a cinematographer was shot dead by the actor Alec Baldwin are reported to have been using the gun involved for live target practice.

    Sources involved in the production of Rust, a western set in the 19th century, told the celebrity website TMZ that the gun was used for recreational purposes off set, with real ammunition that may have accidentally been left in the weapon when it was handed to Baldwin, 63, as he rehearsed a scene in New Mexico."

    • Bearded Git 1.1
      26 October 2021 at 7:16 am

      Who cares? There are around 250,000 gun deaths each year in the world.

      • Maurice 1.1.1
        26 October 2021 at 7:49 am

        And close to 5 million covid deaths – so firearms are far less lethal?

      • Jester 1.1.2
        26 October 2021 at 7:50 am

        As someone said to me over the weekend there's a new T-shirt coming out that says:

        "Guns don't kill people, but Alec Baldwin does"

        Too soon?

        • weka 1.1.2.1
          26 October 2021 at 11:04 am

          yes, especially if it's not his fault.

          • Nobody 1.1.2.1.1
            26 October 2021 at 2:46 pm

            It's his fault. He picked up the gun, he didn't check the firearm himself and he pulled the trigger.

            • weka 1.1.2.1.1.1
              26 October 2021 at 3:24 pm

              if he thought it was a prop, not a firearm, then no, it’s not his fault. Unless they use live ammunition on the set for some reason, why would he need to treat it as a firearm rather than a prop? It’s also a workplace, so there are rules around all of that.

              • woodart …
                26 October 2021 at 3:44 pm

                the whole "who to blame" bollocks is a result of the gun culture, having a shootup for fun, gun maybe left with live ammo etc etc. treating guns like we treat power tools is a nonsense. personal protection,second amendment, grow up!

                • Ngungukai …
                  26 October 2021 at 4:24 pm

                  Bit like that in NZ with our gang, drug and gun culture. We appear to have a gang related shooting nearly every week these days, even under lockdown, however gangsters don't take much notice of lockdowns. I thought Jacinda and the NZ Police were on top of this gun problem ?

        • Andre 1.1.2.2
          26 October 2021 at 3:07 pm

          Cyber chocolate fish to whomever guesses which individual is selling those.

          (Hint; he was a distant runner-up to his dad for the title of World's Most Loathsome Pile of Garbage Wearing a Human Skinsuit)

    • Ngungukai 1.2
      26 October 2021 at 10:30 am

      Baldwin needs to be charged along with others for this Clusterfuck, I agree you can’t make this shit up and it could only happen in the USA.

      • Pete 1.2.1
        26 October 2021 at 10:43 am

        What would you charge Baldwin with? What punishment would you give him if he were to be found guilty?

        • Ngungukai 1.2.1.1
          26 October 2021 at 10:47 am

          Negligence when handling a firearm and manslaughter, basic gun handling procedure check there is no live ammunition in the weapon, same rules apply for normal people or are Hollywood Movie Stars different to you and I ?

          • weka 1.2.1.1.1
            26 October 2021 at 11:05 am

            didn't he have good reason to believe it was a prop not a working firearm?

            • Ngungukai 1.2.1.1.1.1
              26 October 2021 at 11:15 am

              Baldwin probably believed it was a prop or loaded with blanks however someone f#%ked up big time, sounds like three people did not double check the weapon was loaded with live ammunition.

              • Pete …
                26 October 2021 at 11:54 am

                Someone gives the gun to someone in the usual way on the set with it implicit that it's checked, it's okay to use in the expected manner.

                That person gives it to someone in the usual way on the set with it implicit that it's checked, it's okay to use in the expected manner.

                That person gives it to the actor, who accepts it expecting to use it in the pre-ordained manner.

                Someone clearly stuffed up dramatically with tragic results. Baldwin killed someone as a result. Can you think of a punishment as bad as knowing you did it and having to live with it every day of the rest of your life?

                I pick my car up from the company servicing it. Someone does not do some detail right and does not check properly. I pick the car up and on the way home my car goes out of control because of the job not being done properly.

                The car crosses the centre line hits another vehicle and someone in the other car is killed. What should I be charged with? What punishment should I be given?

                • Ngungukai …
                  26 October 2021 at 12:36 pm

                  Red herring the mechanic should be charged, not sure on the punishment.

                  • Pete …
                    26 October 2021 at 3:05 pm

                    Do I take it from that you now think Baldwin should not be charged? Which is where you started.

                    • Ngungukai …
                      26 October 2021 at 3:41 pm

                      Obviously all parties involved were negligent, there should not be live ammunition on the set but it is the USA. Baldwin evidently has been quite careful in the past.

              • weka …
                26 October 2021 at 1:47 pm

                I doubt Baldwin is culpable, it will be on the people who manage the props.

              • Gabby …
                26 October 2021 at 5:22 pm

                Apparently the AD has previous. Allegedly.

        • Ngungukai 1.2.1.2
          26 October 2021 at 10:49 am

          Re Punishment have a look on the US Websites and get back to us what you think he should get.

      • weka 1.2.2
        26 October 2021 at 11:06 am

        "it could only happen in the USA."

        I don't know, some of the accidental gun deaths in NZ are pretty stupid too.

        • Ngungukai 1.2.2.1
          26 October 2021 at 11:11 am

          Agree 100% especially with the haphazard licensing here in NZ and the number of illegal firearms floating around this country in the hands of the criminal fraternity.

          • weka 1.2.2.1.1
            26 October 2021 at 1:43 pm

            I was thinking about hunters who shoot other people, or kids that shoot their mates when playing with their dad's rifle because their father left a bullet in it and didn't have it locked away. I grew up in a household where the hunting rifle was in the cupboard, but I never saw any ammunition.

      • Jimmy 1.2.3
        26 October 2021 at 11:49 am

        The bloke that handed the gun to Baldwin or whoever was supposed to check it should be charged.

      • McFlock 1.2.4
        26 October 2021 at 2:31 pm

        Well, no. Actors aren't experts, they're actors. How are they expected to tell the difference between a realistic dummy round and a real bullet?

        BUT

        as executive producer, he bears some responsibility for the safety culture (or lack thereof) on set.

      • Obtrectator 1.2.5
        26 October 2021 at 3:36 pm

        The whole system around the presence of firearms on film sets is at fault, along with everyone who had a hand in operating it. Weapons capable of delivering lethal missiles of any kind simply shouldn't have been there at all, in my view. (You could blame Sam Peckinpah, and his well-known insistence on having "authentic-sounding" gunfire on the soundtracks of his films.)

        But if they do have to be there, then there must be a rigorous code of conduct, which everybody adheres to at all times. And any gun – real or not – should be treated at all times as though it were loaded.

        No-one should have assumed the gun involved here was safe. For a salutary example of what that sort of behaviour can lead to, check out the tragic mishap that took place in Wales just on a century ago (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abermule_train_collision). At least six individuals contributed to that disaster. If any one of them had done their job properly, the accident wouldn't have occurred.

        • joe90 1.2.5.1
          26 October 2021 at 3:46 pm

          And more recently, week long health and safety courses are based on the multiple systems failures responsible for the Pier Alpha disaster.

          https://www.thechemicalengineer.com/features/piper-alpha-the-disaster-in-detail/

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_Alpha

        • McFlock 1.2.5.2
          26 October 2021 at 4:53 pm

          ritual vs procedures.

          Apparently the AD said "cold gun" while handing it to Baldwin. That means not loaded with live rounds. So the AD didn't check – or check properly. But they followed the ritual.

          Real firearms on set can be necessary, but live ammunition on set isn't conceivably needed. Sound effects can be recorded on a controlled firing range months before or after actors touch a weapon. Same with bullet impact sequences. A sequence where the actor is supposed to draw the weapon without firing it? No bang, not even a blank is needed. Dummy rounds in a revolver, maybe. Certainly not live ones.

    • Jimmy 1.3
      26 October 2021 at 10:55 am

      I can't believe they would have live ammunition on a set if they have real guns as props. Can't they make fake guns that look real that don't actually fire anything?

  2. Dennis Frank 2
    26 October 2021 at 8:04 am

    The Ministry of Health has alerted police that some Kiwis may be getting vaccinated on behalf of others.

    https://www.1news.co.nz/2021/10/25/moh-aware-people-might-be-getting-vaccinated-on-behalf-of-others/

    So the spirit of community is live & well, and folks are helping those who are afraid of the jab by getting one for them. Well, the MoH has officially signalled this phenomenon as a maybe. Sensible, since the truth is increasingly elusive nowadays.

    Pity the poor cops, who will now be feeling challenged to determine the truth! They should plead `insufficient resources' to shirk the task in the usual manner, asap.

    After all, what's important is that the govt seems to reach the 90% target – not that it actually does so. Labour knows perception beats reality nowadays.

    Health bureaucrats, being old-fashioned, are concerned that fake identity usage will make the vaccination numbers more illusion than fact. But as long as everyone holds hands and maintains their faith in the system, it won't matter. Faith-based politics is traditional, so we can rely on it to produce the desired outcome by weight of numbers.

  3. francesca 3
    26 October 2021 at 8:25 am

    I think Red Logix has been right about this all along.

    https://news.yahoo.com/nih-admits-funding-gain-function-125103852.html

    an excerpt

    n the letter to Representative James Comer (R., Ky.), Lawrence A. Tabak of the NIH cites a “limited experiment” that was conducted to test if “spike proteins from naturally occurring bat coronaviruses circulating in China were capable of binding to the human ACE2 receptor in a mouse model.” The laboratory mice infected with the modified bat virus “became sicker” than those infected with the unmodified bat virus.

    Peter Daszak , the president of ECo Health Alliance ,heavily involved in gain of function research at Wuhan, was also a team member for the WHO investigation that went to Wuhan to find the origins of covid

    Conflict of interest?

    https://www.newsweek.com/peter-daszak-u-s-funds-wuhan-institute-virology-aided-cover-faces-calls-quit-ecohealth-alliance-1636103

    This is the sort of thing that gives conspiracy theorists a good name

    Daszak and Fauci lied.

    • Ngungukai 3.1
      26 October 2021 at 10:35 am

      Interesting seems the Chinese and the WHO are not being totally honest with us, if it smells like a rat it probably is a rat ?

  4. Patricia Bremner 4
    26 October 2021 at 8:32 am

    Dennis, Is this rumour the same type as "A homeless man has received accommodation and meals by slipping into MIQ" ?

    After extensive costly checking of lists with CTV cameras it was declared to be a story, and was traced back to National MP Woodhouse.

    If this vaccination story is true/sarc, produce proof, or get on and help the roll out rather than hindering it.
    This was meant as a comment on your comment Dennis.

    • Dennis Frank 4.1
      26 October 2021 at 9:11 am

      Don't be silly, Patricia. As the TVNZ report informs us, the Health Dept has alerted the police to the possibility of citizens deliberately faking vaccination stats. Seems obvious the officials would not do so unless they had serious concerns about the consequences.

      I doubt you really intended to suggest that the officials are being irresponsible in doing that. I suspect you simply didn't think it through.

      So the onus is on the cops to determine the proof – or lack thereof. It is not on you or I to do so. I'm sure that, when you give more thought to the moral responsibility side of the issue, you will realise this.

      • Patricia Bremner 4.1.1
        26 October 2021 at 12:42 pm

        You may think what you like Frank, but the use of the archaic term "Silly" implies "Silly Girl" and yet you did not reply to Tiger Mountain's similar comment in that fashion? So ?? Why was that?? Why not “silly comment”.. You personalised it imo. Mansplaining is beneath you really.

        I was commenting on a previous “report” which cost a great deal and proved shady. This could be another “red herring”. Not all Health Officials have been helpful in the past.

        • Dennis Frank 4.1.1.1
          26 October 2021 at 1:20 pm

          No problem, Bremner. You may think TVNZ was reporting a rumour as long as you like but I'm inclined to take their report of the Health Dept referral to the police at face value. I don't believe our officials issue rumours during a pandemic. I'm surprised you have the temerity to accuse them of that!

          Re TM, I assumed he was simply implying that any Health Dept officials involved in this decision were National voters. Speculation unworthy of comment.

          • Patricia Bremner 4.1.1.1.1
            26 October 2021 at 2:42 pm

            My use of your Surname instead of your Christian/first name was unintentional.blush

        • Tiger Mountain 4.1.1.2
          26 October 2021 at 3:52 pm

          Mr Frank came across as queasily condescending imo.

          People are getting a bit tetchy at the moment all over online forums so though I am quite capable of biting back, am trying not to, excessively…

          • Dennis Frank 4.1.1.2.1
            26 October 2021 at 4:11 pm

            Likewise. I'm a typical kiwi guy inasmuch as I don't use 19th century titles like the one you're trying to impose on me.

            I can see why you may have thought my effort in explaining why the Health Dept officials don't seem to be starting rumours was condescending – but I didn't actually pat her on the head, right? So dunno why my being helpful made you feel queasy. You may need to take a tablet for that.

  5. francesca 5
    26 October 2021 at 8:36 am

    This Zero Hedge article fleshes out more details

    Weird that at a time of such US hostility to China there would be such collaboration at the Wuhan lab.

    According to the article, the leaked documents 'struck a number of scientists and researchers as significant for one reason' – namely that a distinctive segment of SARS-CoV-2's genetic code is a 'furin cleavage site' which makes the virus more infectious because of its ability to enter human cells – exactly the feature EcoHealth proposed modifying in the leaked proposal.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/political/ecohealth-throws-fauci-under-bus-over-wuhan-gain-function-report-researcher-claims

    • Macro 5.1
      26 October 2021 at 8:49 am

      Stephanopoulos also pressed Fauci on the controversy over to what extent the U.S. was funding bat coronavirus research in Wuhan after the NIH released a letter this week about a New York City-based nonprofit's research on bat coronavirus spike proteins. The letter states that the subcontractor had not disclosed some results in a timely manner.

      "Now, some critics and analysts have seized on that to say you and others have misled the public about U.S. funding of this so-called gain-of-function research. The NIH says that's false. Our medical unit backs that up," Stephanopoulos said. Sen. Rand Paul, R-Ky., has called for Fauci's firing over the controversy.

      "Well, I obviously totally disagree with Senator Paul. He's absolutely incorrect. Neither I nor Dr. Francis Collins, the director of the NIH lied or misled about what we've done," Fauci responded.

      "What did we learn from the letter? Does it show that some of the research we were finding was riskier than we know?" Stephanopoulos pressed.

      Fauci said they knew what the risk was and there's "no denial" that they should have put their progress report in a timely manner, but that the implication that the research led to COVID-19 is "unconscionable" and "molecularly impossible."

      "There's all of this concern about what's gain-of-function or what's not, with the implication that that research led to SARS-CoV-2, and COVID-19, which, George, unequivocally anybody that knows anything about viral biology and phylogeny of viruses know that it is molecularly impossible for those viruses that were worked on to turn into SARS-CoV-2 because they were distant enough molecularly that no matter what you did to them, they could never, ever become SARS-CoV-2," Fauci explained.

      "And yet when people talk about gain-of-function, they make that implication which I think is unconscionable to do, to say, 'Well, maybe that research led to SARS-CoV-2'," Fauci added. "You can ask any person of good faith who's a virologist, and they will tell you, absolutely clearly, that that would be molecularly impossible."

      https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/ThisWeek/pediatric-vaccines-1st-2nd-week-november-fauci/story%3fid=80746197

      • francesca 5.1.1
        26 October 2021 at 9:25 am

        In the words of Mandy Rice-Davies "well he would say that wouldn't he"

        Fauci lied to Congress

        He knew in April about the nature of the research, but told Congress in July that US tax dollars had not been used to fund risky coronavirus research in Wuhan

        • RedLogix 5.1.1.1
          26 October 2021 at 11:55 am

          Then there is this:

          Peter Daszak and the EcoHealth Alliance (EHA) proposed injecting deadly chimeric bat coronaviruses collected by the Wuhan Institute of Virology into humanised and “batified” mice.

          The EHA / WIV proposal (named ‘DEFUSE’) was ultimately rejected for full funding (but leaving open the door for partial funding), in part because it mis-interpreted the GOF guidelines.

          In other words, a branch of the federal government had already judged aspects of EHA’s research, and the corresponding shared research plan with the WIV, as falling under the definition of GOF, only for HHS to approve similar work without P3CO review in 2018 and 2019.

          The other interesting angle I only recently became aware of is that Fauci seems to have had form on this kind thing back during the early days of the AID's epidemic when he first rose to prominence.

          It's important to understand that there is no evidence or good reason to think the escape was intentional. The lab was being so badly run from a bio-security perspective that an accident was almost inevitable.

          The culpability lies with the response. Patient Zero is almost certainly among a number of WIV staff members in early October 2019. There was a five month window of opportunity to isolate and eradicate COVID between then and late February 2020 when finally the world started to shut down international travel.

          Instead the CCP first tried to cover up the lethality and transmissibility of the new pathogen. Then later after closing down domestic travel to prevent the spread – spent the next six weeks loudly insisting that doing the same for international travel would be racist. And pressuring WHO into failing to declare the event a pandemic – a declaration that would have triggered preventative action – for a whole month after it was fucking obvious to everyone what was happening.

          Then we have some of the leading professional figures who we should have been able to rely upon to be frank and transparent on what they knew, lie and mislead the public – and much of the rest of the medical community – for another year or so.

          What should have happened is that sometime in November 2019 a WHO team of independent technical experts should have arrived at WIV for a full open-book, pockets-out investigation across the entire institution. It's now abundantly clear that this kind of research has the proven potential to be even more devastating than nuclear weapons – and any nation that is going to host such research must be subject to an iron-clad supervision and oversight by a global body capable of overriding all professional and nation-state conflicts of interest.

          • francesca 5.1.1.1.1
            26 October 2021 at 12:18 pm

            Surely the EHA also cops some flak for not raising flags when they saw what was happening. They kept their mouths shut because they knew they'd cut corners.

            • RedLogix 5.1.1.1.1.1
              26 October 2021 at 2:01 pm

              Yes. Daszak's position as head of EHA is untenable. How they handle this will be a litmus test.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 5.1.1.1.2
            26 October 2021 at 12:53 pm

            It's important to understand that there is no evidence or good reason to think the escape was intentional.

            "The escape"? When you're that committed to the idea of a lab escape, why bother to consider alternatives? Imho the origin of SARS-CoV-2 has yet to be determined, despite the conviction of Senator Paul (R-Ky) and others.

            SARS-CoV-2 and MERS-CoV Share the Furin Site CGG-CGG Genetic Footprint
            In conclusion, it is highly unlikely to find this genetic marker in betacoronaviruses wildlife, but they are there. Collectively, results shed light on recombination as origin of the virus CGG-CGG arginine pair in the S1/S2 cleavage site.

            Inferring the ecological niche of bat viruses closely related to SARS-CoV-2 using phylogeographic analyses of Rhinolophus species
            The results show that the ecological niche of bat viruses related to SARS-CoV2 includes several regions of mainland Southeast Asia whereas the ecological niche of bat viruses related to SARS-CoV is mainly restricted to China. In agreement with these results, human populations in Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, and Thailand appear to be much less affected by the COVID-19 pandemic than other countries of Southeast Asia. In the climatic transitional zone between the two ecological niches (southern Yunnan, northern Laos, northern Vietnam), genomic recombination between highly divergent viruses is more likely to occur. Considering the limited data and the risk of recombinant bat-CoVs emergence as the source of new pandemics in humans, the bat populations in these regions should be under surveillance.

            Closest known relatives of virusbehind COVID-19 found in Laos
            “I am more convinced than ever that SARS-CoV-2 has a natural origin,” agrees Linfa Wang, a virologist at Duke–NUS Medical School in Singapore. Together with relatives of SARS-CoV-2 discovered in Thailand, Cambodia and Yunnan in southern China, the study demonstrates that southeast Asia is a “hotspot of diversity for SARS-CoV-2 related viruses”, says Alice Latinne, an evolutionary biologist at the Wildlife Conservation Society Vietnam in Hanoi.
            …
            Wang says that both studies highlight the importance of ramping up sampling in regions outside China to help uncover the origins of the pandemic.

            • RedLogix 5.1.1.1.2.1
              26 October 2021 at 1:58 pm

              How far from Wuhan?

              • Drowsy M. Kram …
                26 October 2021 at 2:09 pm

                Maybe agents of the evil CCP are seeding SARS-CoV-2 in bat colonies in Thailand and Cambodia as we write – some wouldn’t put it past them.

            • Subliminal 5.1.1.1.2.2
              26 October 2021 at 5:09 pm

              Science often doesn't shift conspiracy thinkers DMK. We only need to look at ebola to realise the difficulty and time needed to ascertain the wild origins of a "new" virus. Already, bats have been sampled that have a closer genetic match than the virus being used at Wuhan as your articles above show. Also, like RL, Zerohedge cannot resist any story with an anti China bias. Distance from Wuhan stated below is a red herring. Wuhan is not definitively ground zero and cannot be so until thorough cooperative investigation with all States into alleged examples of infection prior to the Wuhan outbreak. As with the Spanish flu, the naming of this pandemic by Trump may be due to the diligence of medical staff in noticing something out of the ordinary and taking the action required to find its cause. The conspiracy theory just has to keep snowballing to keep up with all the agencies that must have been involved. At present, these include the NIH and CDC. Even though there is no scientific refutation of a simple well known pathway. But no. Because the natural pathway has taken years to uncover in the past, this now becomes evidence for conspiracy.

              • francesca …
                26 October 2021 at 6:29 pm

                But the lab leak theory, although it started off as being very anti China, has taken a different turn with the US being so involved, contracting out the research.This is no doubt why the first WHO investigation failed to find anything definitive.And why oh why would you have the president of the Eco Health Alliance , who was so involved in Wuhan , on the WHO team?

                None of that looks good , and neither does the oversight for what was going on

                Gain of function research is very risky, and the laboratories that engage in it , as RL said a while ago, leak like sieves..It is getting way too coincidental, that the novel furin cleavage site was exactly the adaptation the EHA was proposing to insert

                I've always been a bit leery of Ockhams razor, but I'm swinging that way now (after arguing the opposite for months)

                Whatever, the research has been very dodgily pursued, lies have been told, and terrible risks taken .I'm glad to see the light being shone on GOF research.

                • Subliminal …
                  26 October 2021 at 9:01 pm

                  Look Francesca, I'm not really sure what it is about Martenson that everyone holds in such high regard. Darpa has funded a lot of weird projects. Some work, many don't. But that they funded a project to mangle up a super virus from cut and paste or some kind of mix and match witches brew doesnt mean that its possible to complete. Frankensteins monster is a fiction. If you want to get some of the flavour of Martenson then here is a really good starter in an interview with Whitney Webb. She is another who believes that all the really rich people are in such total control of the world that anything that what they wish to make happen, happens. For her, Rockefeller is a prime mover. But in the interview, Martenson says that the mRNA vaccines also have a Darpa background and implies that covd is a plot to exert societal control. If this is the level of his genius then I think that even though its unsettling to realise that it may take a long time to unravel the origins of covd, it is unlikely that this is a plot thats been hatched by some evil genius.

                  • RedLogix …
                    26 October 2021 at 9:20 pm

                    Off the mark there. I explicitly stated above that there is no evidence or good reason to think COVID was intentionally released. No evil genius needed.

                    But as with the Soviet Chernobyl story, once the disaster had gotten loose the CCP response was culpable. All of the necessary elements for a lab leak had both precedent and confirmed presence. Your Occams Razor doesn't cut mustard.

                    • Subliminal …
                      27 October 2021 at 7:46 am

                      But you agree with evidence presented by a firm believer of mad genius. As well as the ability to create Frankensteins monster from parts scraped from here and there when all the evidence from science shows the most likely path to be from the wild, naturally, by normal selection processes

                    • RedLogix …
                      27 October 2021 at 10:48 am

                      As well as the ability to create Frankensteins monster from parts scraped from here and there when all the evidence from science shows the most likely path to be from the wild, naturally, by normal selection processes

                      Absolutely wrong. Experimental work of exactly this nature is precisely what WIV had been conducting under contract to the EHA. This much is unequivocally documented from the US side.

                      On the other hand your earlier claim that other virus's genetically closer to the one's WIV were working have been found on is based on the false premise that we have full and unfettered access to the WIV virus database. Without that information any such comparison is meaningless.

                      We also know that for the better part of a decade, numerous other researchers and groups were vocally concerned about the extreme risks involved in this kind of viral manipulation, to the extent that the Obama Administration placed a strict moratorium on it. Implying that this risk was either fanciful or unfounded flies in the face of events this past two years.

                  • francesca …
                    27 October 2021 at 8:30 am

                    Darpa didn’t fund it .They said it was too risky, (didn’t stop NIAID from funding tho( Fauci is the director)and I’m not going on what Martenson has to say .I’m looking at what has come to light in the last 6 days

                    Malfeasance. Covid may not have escaped from the lab, but these GOF exercises have way too many risks and not enough oversight.
                    Lies were told, regulations were breached .RL and I differ over CCP culpability, but I respect his arguments otherwise

              • Drowsy M. Kram …
                26 October 2021 at 11:07 pm

                Science often doesn't shift conspiracy thinkers DMK.

                So it would seem – appreciate your comment and info.

                Some opinions here are tainted by a pronounced anti-CCP bias. There's already a noticeable broadening of blame ("the CCP response was culpable") in order to continue painting the CCP as (at best) a duplicitous bad faith actor once the most likely origin of SARS-CoV-2 is revealed.

                Whereas it seems to me more likely that the CCP acted passably well in response to a novel pathogen – certainly better than the U.K. government handled the BSE epidemic and its impact on human health. And no, there was no cover-up there either, just an honest effort to deal with a (very) novel pathogen, coupled with government complacency and incompetence with a nod (early on) to beef farmers' back pockets.

                Daughter of Gummer family friend dies from vCJD
                The daughter of a friend of the former agriculture minister John Gummer – who controversially tried to allay safety fears over British beef by feeding his own child a burger in front of the national media – has died from the human form of mad cow disease.

                • RedLogix …
                  27 October 2021 at 4:46 am

                  Some opinions here are tainted by a pronounced anti-CCP bias.

                  Considering their appalling record – I make zero apology for this. That elements of the left still cannot bring itself to fully repudiate the monstrous failures of communism and still carries water for that failed ideology is a matter of deep regret as far as I'm concerned.

                  If there is one infamous thinker more proven wrong than Marx it would have to be Freud – and while both will always retain their place in history as intellectual pioneers – somehow the field of psychology moved on from the deep limitations and errors of it’s founding figure, while the political hard left still retains an irrational loyalty to marxism and it's numerous derivatives.

                  I will credit you with noticing that it's the CCP I'm set against and not the Chinese people or China as a nation. I only wish the latter freedom from the former.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    27 October 2021 at 10:19 am

                    Considering their appalling record – I make zero apology for this.

                    It was just an observation. I didn’t ask for or expect an apology – we're all ‘entitled’ to our opinions, such as the one I wrote at 11:07 pm last night, and the one you wrote at 4:46 am this morning.

          • swordfish 5.1.1.1.3
            26 October 2021 at 2:05 pm

            .

            Chris Martenson was on to this very early on … sophisticated critique way back in circa April / May 2020 IIRR.

  6. Molly 6
    26 October 2021 at 8:57 am

    If we need some insight into where we are heading in terms of public malaise – some inklings from an article from Suzanne Moore on the UK twenty months in:

    The State of the Nation: The Nation is in a State

    “Have you got a temperature?” the pharmacist asks. No, I am fine. She has to check as I am about to get a flu jab. Flu, we are told, could kill as many people this winter as Covid. Last year there was less flu because we were not mixing. This year who knows? “Can I get my Covid Booster shot here?” I ask. The Health Minister Sajid Javid said that anyone over 50 can now get one if it is six months since their last vaccine. “No, we don’t do them or we would be overwhelmed” says the pharmacist.

    So I try to book one online. The government says I am eligible. The website says I am not.

    This is yet another bit of the system that is not working, but like many of my fellow citizens I am resigned to this. I don’t bother calling my doctors’ because haven’t they already got enough to deal with?

    This world where we are told one thing is happening and yet we know somehow it’s not – this state of cognitive dissonance – is how it feels here right now. There is no device that takes the temperature of a nation. Instead there is feverish speculation and cold hard information and most of us live somewhere between the two. ..

    …

    Other days nothing makes sense. We are lost but know intuitively that we cannot go back to a time before. The future always arrives unannounced. Our so called Blitz Spirit is a tattered myth. Many suffered what we now know to be real trauma.

    Is this to be the winter of our discontent? It’s looking likely. So much is broken and yet you can walk into an expensive restaurant and it will be packed. You can go dancing as if nothing bad ever happened. You can party on. It’s just at night when you hear the sound of the ambulance sirens so regularly and helicopters hover overhead because our kids are still stabbing each other to death, you wonder what the phrase “a perfect storm” means. You wonder, as you nestle back down under the duvet, if there is shelter from the storm. You wonder if the shelters can withstand what is coming. And you fall into a half sleep trying to remember a time when there were adults who knew things and there were certainties and solutions and a desire to mend all that was damaged.

    But it’s no good because as the dawn comes, you realise you no longer live in that country any more.

    • GreenBus 6.1
      26 October 2021 at 9:26 am

      Thanks Molly, a sobering forewarning of things to come. The death cult capitalists would disregard as the ravings of the unhinged. But it is perfectly logical in fact.

      • weka 6.1.1
        26 October 2021 at 11:11 am

        very sobering.

        NZ still has more choice about what path we go down, but denial is a huge issue. Denial of the problem, and denial of the possible solutions.

        Neoliberalim for the win.

    • Sabine 6.2
      26 October 2021 at 9:35 am

      So she is eligible for a booster, that means she is no longer 'vaccinated'. This is how quick one can fall from 'good' category of vaccinated to 'bad' category of unvaccinated, never mind the issues in getting these booster shots.

      Do we even acknowledge that everyone who got vaccinated between Jan and April is right now in the process of loosing the double jabbed status, or has lost it already? Are these people counted under the vaccinated or unvaccinated?

      • francesca 6.2.1
        26 October 2021 at 9:41 am

        I fall into that category, having obediently lined up and got my jab as soon as it was available .Apparently I still have 47% protection (what does that even mean?)in an area famous for its low vax rate.(57%), no word of boosters so I’m just going to have to run the gauntlet on this one

        • Sabine 6.2.1.1
          26 October 2021 at 9:48 am

          So are you considered vaccinated in our stats, or are you one of them evil antivaxxers who are holding up our freedoms?

          • francesca 6.2.1.1.1
            26 October 2021 at 10:15 am

            God knows Clearly my protection is considered adequate.

            Apparently it's ridiculously easy to go online and get a mask exemption too.

            We have a high proportion of covid deniers as well as anti vaxxers.

            I'll be heading for the hills.

        • Nic the NZer 6.2.1.2
          26 October 2021 at 10:32 am

          It depends on the particular statistic what protection means, but usually these are stated in relation to an unvaccinated rate. 47% then means if you would have contracted covid in some scenario then there is now have 53% rate of catching it in that same scenario.

        • UncookedSelachimorpha 6.2.1.3
          26 October 2021 at 11:22 am

          Francesca – you still have excellent protection against hospitalisation and death from your vaccinations. It is your protection against catching (and potentially spreading) the virus at all, which is waning.

          https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02183-8/fulltext

        • Patricia Bremner 6.2.1.4
          26 October 2021 at 1:52 pm

          Hi Francesca, N and I have that same problem, but I seem to remember reading here that our immunity still protects against the worst outcomes even at that level. I always get the 'flu vax, and I guess that is a booster. That was through our Dr's office, and I believe the booster will be the same, and they will call people in by invitation "as not all will need it" Seem to recall that. Someone else may know.

      • Molly 6.2.2
        26 October 2021 at 9:52 am

        As mentioned before, I had trouble booking my first jab because of similar circumstances.

        The failure to at least try to maintain an elimination strategy until the vaccination rollout was well advanced has led to an inequity once again.

        • Sabine 6.2.2.1
          26 October 2021 at 10:00 am

          Life in the future with a Covid Pass is going to be interesting, one day you are vaccinated, the next no more – unless they give a grace period of a month to get the booster shot. Oh well its only the poor that will have to suffer the complications of these systems.

          • weka 6.2.2.1.1
            26 October 2021 at 11:13 am

            have they said how the pass is going to work with the booster yet?

            • Sabine 6.2.2.1.1.1
              26 October 2021 at 11:37 am

              not that i can see, but i know from people overseas that the issue with getting the booster shots is real.

              So any target of 90% is inachievable as any day people will fall out of the fully vaccinated group into the 'non vaccinated group' if they cant get a booster. At least that is what logic would suggest.

              • weka …
                26 October 2021 at 1:49 pm

                I doubt that few who are double vaxxed have no immunity now after 6 months, but we will see. I agree with what you've been saying about we need to keep on with the masks, handwashing, distancing etc.

                Booster shots are a given, I'm not sure we know yet how that will work with the vax cert.

        • Ngungukai 6.2.2.2
          26 October 2021 at 11:06 am

          We don't need to rush this thing Jacinda has fallen flat on her face already trying to get the Australian Bubble up and running to quickly with out having the checks and balances in place.

          • Treetop 6.2.2.2.1
            26 October 2021 at 1:51 pm

            There was a lot of pressure to have a trans – Tasman bubble, to reconnect family and for people to wake up and get vaccinated. Tourism and business were not the winners.

            When it comes to pressure by opening up schools in a L3 zone, for students in years 11 – 13 this is going to be a body slam for the government.

            To put education before a students health is going to have an effect which I do not think the health system is prepared for.

        • Jenny how to get there 6.2.2.3
          26 October 2021 at 12:33 pm

          "The failure to at least try to maintain an elimination strategy until the vaccination rollout was well advanced has led to an inequity once again."

          Absolutely agree.

          The ending of the Level 4 Lockdown and its replacement with the so called Three Step Roadmap Out Of Lockdown" (Which was supposed to be implemented despite rising cases in the community) was abandoned as confusing and unworkable. On October 4, only the first step of loosening restrictions of the Roadmap in spite of rising infections was able to be inplemented before it was abandoned. The Three Step Roadmap Out Of Lockdown has been replaced with the Traffic Light system. The Traffic Light system has also been criticised for being confusing and unworkable.
          Both systems were never meant to work. The purpose of both schemes is not to prevent a rise in infections, their purpose is to end lockdowns despite rising hospitalisations and deaths.

          Health experts have called for the return of the Elimination strategy and the retention of the 4 Level Lockdown Alert system. The government have refused putting all their faith in the still incomplete vaccine roll out.

          The triumph of the economy over public health and welfare is complete.

    • francesca 6.3
      26 October 2021 at 9:37 am

      Very good Molly , sure resonates with me.

      The current energy crisis in Europe and China exposes how shallow the response to climate change has been .We've hung on to the same economic model of produce and consume crap , with the same rising inequities , and concentrated on merely substituting fossil fuels with renewals.Dumb!! and frightening.

  7. Sabine 7
    26 October 2021 at 9:46 am

    buried in the Otago Times an article about businesses and commercial leases and the absence of government regulations in the times of the plague.

    https://www.odt.co.nz/business/take-advice-implications-covid-19-leases?fbclid=IwAR0enbcUAOb696Y71UhVeO5Nn4vteUDDNx3z7oxznDOdulfIPNQBrA490Lc

    Disclaimer: i am personally not to badly affected by these times of the plague and am looking at a decent christmas period. 🙂

    I am also not asking for money to be spend on undeserving businesses – and aren't they all underserving, bludgers all of them s/ – I am asking for a similar clause as was added to tenancy / lease agreements as was done in 2012 after teh CHCH earthquakes. This would provide some certainty to tenants but also the landlords and would by implication maybe even force the banks to work with their customers who hold commercial properties.

    • Jenny how to get there 7.1
      26 October 2021 at 12:57 pm

      Pretty meagre stuff from a Labour govt.

      After decades of accepting that There Is No Alteranitve (TINA) to neoliberal economic orthodoxy, the Labour government are unlikely to adopt anything like the sort of lease and mortgage relief of the First Labour Government during the Depression, (or even of the Massey Coalition government during the First World War.)

      Neoliberals would rather let the virus rip than consider any measures like that.

      Rather than impose a mortgage moratorium, if they had been in power in 1913 Neoliberals would have let the Germans in.

      Rather than impose a rent and lease moratorium, if they had been in power in 1931 neoliberals would have let mass evictions and mortgagees sales impoverish the mass of the people.

      Because you know, TINA.

      …..by 1931, it was clear that further intervention was necessary to prevent widespread foreclosures and mortgagee sales…..

      ….Although mortgage relief was frequently discussed at some length by
      contemporary commentators, and by some historians in the 1950s and
      1960s, it has been relegated to a few lines at most in more recent works.’

      …..This Act also extended to lessees [renters] the same protection
      that had been granted to mortgagors,

      The modification of mortgage conditions was not new in New Zealand. A ‘mortgage moratorium’ had been imposed as a war measure in 1914,

      http://www.nzjh.auckland.ac.nz/docs/1987/NZJH_21_2_03.pdf

  8. Adrian 8
    26 October 2021 at 10:46 am

    Only the stupid would not know that if a facility is studying bat viruses and the potential effect on humans, that that research would need to determine if such a thing was possible. The way to do that would be to use lab mice inoculated with human cells to determine the outcome.. I pity the poor mice but we must give them thanks because although they do spread disease and environmental disaster, see Australia this year, many have given their lives so that we do not suffer the many diseases that afflict us. I think mice deserve the Noble Prize this year.

  9. Stephen D 9
    26 October 2021 at 11:32 am

    Trying to put China’s activities on the geopolitical front, especially the Pacific, in some sort of historical perspective.

    China’s development has been governed by it is geography. Desert to the north, mountains to the west, jungle to the south the ocean to the east. Mountain ranges and river systems inside the borders have given structure to population growth and internal migration. The river valleys and plains of the Yellow river and the Yangtse being the major ones.

    To protect the one border easily overrun, generations and multiple dynasties built an actual wall as a barrier to invasion. There have been periods in Chinese history where the exploration of the oceans to the east have been extensive. China has been trading regularly with ports as far as the Arabian Gulf and the Red Sea for thousands of years.

    With the expansion of sea trade around its eastern coast from the 19th century it is only natural that China would want to ensure that its own coastline was protected. The expansion into the South China sea could be seen in this light. Similar with Taiwan. Prior to the Nationalist takeover, that island had been part of China for many hundreds of years.

    Given China’s more recent history with Western powers, it could hardly be blamed for having a jaundiced view of their behaviour.

    • alwyn 9.1
      26 October 2021 at 11:53 am

      "Prior to the Nationalist takeover, that island had been part of China for many hundreds of years.".

      Taiwan was part of China for a couple of hundred years perhaps but certainly not up until the Nationalist takeover as you suggest. For the 50 years from 1895 for example it was ruled by Japan. Prior to about 1760 the movement of Chinese people to Taiwan was actively discouraged by the Chinese authorities. The island was only really under the full control of China from about 1770 to 1880 or so.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Taiwan#Early_settlement

      • Stephen D 9.1.1
        26 October 2021 at 12:38 pm

        Full control perhaps.

        But certainly China's sphere of influence since about 239CE. There are written references to Taiwan in Chinese records going back to 3rd Century BCE.

  10. Maurice 10
    26 October 2021 at 11:34 am

    Given the above points can we "vaccinate" our way out of this crisis?

  11. Sabine 11
    26 October 2021 at 11:52 am

    File this in the 'war on women', and remember that no one could have thought of that, and no one would do such a thing, and even if people were to say such a thing could happen then it is because they are transphobic or terf.
    https://boston.cbslocal.com/2021/10/19/wrentham-outlets-jacob-guerrero-amazon-driver-child-pornography-charges/

    Surely no one could have forseen this? Right?

    “A mother and daughter reported there was a person acting strange, a man dressed as a woman wearing a wig,” said Wrentham Police Chief Bill McGrath.

    When Wrentham Police responded to the outlets in August, where women reported a man behaving suspiciously in a women’s bathroom, an investigation began that would uncover far more sinister evidence. A witness photo showed what appeared to be pen cameras – recording devices – laced into the man’s sneakers.

    Surveillance video soon led investigators to 23-year-old Jacob Guerrero of Woonsocket, Rhode Island. A search warrant gave police access to his phone, which contained photos and videos of child pornography.

    “Some of the children he allegedly had on his phone were 8, 9, 10, 11 years old,” McGrath said.

    But hey, they just want to use the loo that goes with their 'gender' right? Right? And no one could even tell them from a person. Right?

    But it is all good, he can identify as a female and get to sit his sentence out in a female prison. Cause he is such a lovely young women. Right?

    • Shanreagh 11.1
      26 October 2021 at 12:06 pm

      Whose is listening to us? We've said all these things w/could happen. To mount any argument let alone just ask a question is to invite all sorts of foul mouthed responses that seem perfectly OK to their supporters.

      In my life the possible fracture between friends is on this issue rather than on Covid. We all seem to be vaxxed. crying

    • francesca 11.2
      26 October 2021 at 12:13 pm

      I'm surprised the mother and daughter weren't charged with hate crime for misgendering the poor woman in the toilets

    • Red Blooded One 11.3
      26 October 2021 at 1:31 pm

      I have just one question, does the criminal in this article identify as a Woman/Trans? I can't see anywhere in the storey that says HE does.

      • Sabine 11.3.1
        26 October 2021 at 1:38 pm

        He was dressed in a wig in the ladies. US has self ID and anyone can be a lady and be in the ladies, and if they tell the cops they are a lady they get to go to the ladies prison.

        So the moment he says he is a lady, or was a lady, or will be a lady, that makes him a lady.

        Any 2 dollar wig will get you access to that sweet sweet ladydom and access to all the little girls and women you would like to film while they go to the loo to do their business and change their tampons / pads. Cause that is what ladies do, specially the ladies with penises and a penchant for little girls.

        • Molly 11.3.1.1
          26 October 2021 at 1:44 pm

          Don't even the $2 wig. Self-id doesn't require a change in presentation.

        • Red Blooded One 11.3.1.2
          26 October 2021 at 1:46 pm

          Perhaps you could answer the question. " does the criminal in this article identify as a Woman/Trans? I can't see anywhere in the storey that says HE does."

          • Sabine 11.3.1.2.1
            26 October 2021 at 1:50 pm

            i have answered the question.
            He was in a Ladies, wearing a Lady wig, impersonating a Lady, that by the Self ID laws in the US will make him a Lady. That is all you have to do to be a Lady.

            and i leave it at that, lest someone accuses me of misgendering a dear Lady, with a Lady penis and a very bad wig, who is in the Ladies toilet to film little girls in the toilet.

            And for what its worth, just in case you did not know, All trans identified males are men, no matter the wigs, the fake boobs, the lipstick and the shoes.

            • Red Blooded One 11.3.1.2.1.1
              26 October 2021 at 2:00 pm

              You haven't answered the question, it was a simple one. Obviously you are going to choose not to and will continue around in circles trying to link an arsehole male criminal in a wig and dress with the Trans Community. You should be ashamed

              • Molly …
                26 October 2021 at 2:09 pm

                The shame rests with you for not thinking this through.

                Sabine's original post states the problem is with self-id and the unthinking admittance of male-bodied people into female single sex spaces.

                There is no condemnation of transpeople in there, just one of the current approach which puts women and girls at further unnecessary risk.

                (As an aside, how comfortable would you be with a young girl aged 8 going into a changing room of naked men and getting undressed in front of them? If not 8, 11,16, 21? My partner says never. But I'm just wondering how many men on here that push for biological men in women's spaces would answer that question. Might provide some answers.)

              • I Feel Love …
                26 October 2021 at 4:02 pm

                I understand the question Red1, good luck getting an answer.

                • Molly …
                  26 October 2021 at 4:06 pm

                  Maybe explain it.

                  It seems like a really bad attempt to conflate sexual attraction with sexual violence.

                  • Molly …
                    26 October 2021 at 4:21 pm

                    Sorry, wrong question….blush

                    Red's original question, has been answered several times. He just keeps asking because he wants to get someone to say something transphobic. And those replying aren’t transphobic, so it’s a bit of a hard slog.

                    Unfortunately, most of us, discussing in good faith, persisted in saying it was a problem of legislation and social contract that has resulted in this person getting access. They only thing of concern was that anyone with violent intent now had a form of access that they previously didn't have.

          • weka 11.3.1.2.2
            26 October 2021 at 1:57 pm

            Perhaps you could answer the question. " does the criminal in this article identify as a Woman/Trans? I can't see anywhere in the storey that says HE does."

            Can you please explain why this matters?

            Also, what is a trans woman, and what is identifying as a woman? See if you can answer.

            • Red Blooded One 11.3.1.2.2.1
              26 October 2021 at 2:02 pm

              I am not the one trying to blame the Trans Community for the actions of a male arsehole, so no I don't need to answer your question.

              • weka …
                26 October 2021 at 2:05 pm

                Please point to who here is trying to blame the trans community for the actions of this male? Please be specific (link or name the comment number).

                • Red Blooded One …
                  26 October 2021 at 2:16 pm

                  "were to say such a thing could happen then it is because they are transphobic or terf."

                  "with hate crime for misgendering the poor woman in the toilets"

                  "Cause that is what ladies do, specially the ladies with penises and a penchant for little girls"

                  That is why I asked just one question "does the criminal in this article identify as a Woman/Trans? I can't see anywhere in the storey that says HE does."

                  • Molly …
                    26 October 2021 at 2:23 pm

                    You just are not good at connecting dots are you?

                    1. The assault does not have to be done by a transgender person to be harmful. The harm exists.
                    2. The admittance of male bodied people into female spaces used to be recognised as a problem, which is why we had single sex spaces in the first place.
                    3. The ability of self-id that requires nothing except a declaration of a self-experienced 'feeling' alongside a legal recognition of that feeling as reality, has created a situation whereby no-one can be challenged when entering a single-sex space, even when they are obviously not the sex it was intended for.
                    4. That has effectively opened the doors to those spaces for those who wish to violate women and girls.
                  • Molly …
                    26 October 2021 at 2:26 pm

                    PS. Perhaps you missed my question above, would like to know your answer?

                    (As an aside, how comfortable would you be with a young girl aged 8 going into a changing room of naked men and getting undressed in front of them? If not 8, 11,16, 21? My partner says never. But I'm just wondering how many men on here that push for biological men in women's spaces would answer that question. Might provide some answers.)

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    26 October 2021 at 2:46 pm

                    It's a fair question. Imho it would be unfortunate if people identifying as trans women were tarnished by the behavior of this man (or possibly trans woman) before any objective determination of their 'trans nature' has been made.

                    Of course, no one would conflate standing up for trans rights with excusing these invasive and/or predatory behaviours, would they?

                    Police: Man in bra and wig found in women's bathroom [March 2012]
                    The man, later identified as Taylor J. Buehler, 18, of Lake Stevens, was placed under arrest.

                    He admitted to officers that he was the suspect in an earlier voyeurism incident at Everett Community College on Monday, police said.

                    In the earlier incident, he said he took a shower in the girls' locker room for sexual gratification, acccording to the police report.

                    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1385889/Joel-Hardman-wore-female-rubber-mask-wig-spy-women-public-toilets.html

                    Man wearing silver wig guilty of north London sex attack [July 2020]

                    Police: Man in wig, makeup, women’s clothes took video in women’s bathroom [August 2021]

                    Man allegedly donned blonde wig and used miniature camera to secretly record girls using Wrentham Outlets bathroom, police say [October 2021]

                    Big Hair: A Wig History of Consumption in Eighteenth‐Century France

                    Has the promotion of trans rights led to a surge in violations of single sex spaces?

                    • Molly …
                      26 October 2021 at 2:51 pm

                      It's a question that has nothing to do with the point Sabine made, which was in regards to the loss of previous safeguards around single sex spaces that made such a violation easier to do.

                      (see below).

                    • Sabine …
                      26 October 2021 at 3:02 pm

                      If transpeople fear that they will be unfairly tarnished they can start lobbying the government that the Self ID bill may makes it to easy for every Hans, Franz and Jakob too to identify into any female space, and please put some safe guarding in it so that these places are not littered with the broken bodies of women and children and the internet is not full of footage of little girls trying to change a menstruation pad or even just have a pee.

                      If transpeople fear that they will be unfairly tarnished they can start demanding that Self ID will be binned for something more sensible, so as to safe guard women, girls, boys and transpeople.

                      If transpeople fear that they will be unfairly tarnished they can start demanding that their Allies understand the danger that lies within the Self ID bill to the safety of women, girls, boys and transpeople, and be considered.

                      Until they do so, they too must understand that the bed they make, is the bed they will sleep in, and that the company they keep says more about them then i t will ever say about us who have been warning about that odious bill, that have been pointing out for some time now, that the Self ID bill is rubbish and dangerous. Because some people will abuse this right, and they will do damage, and chances are the damage is done to women and children, but then I guess that is ok. Women and children, are they even human?

                    • weka …
                      26 October 2021 at 3:27 pm

                      "Has the promotion of trans rights led to a surge in violations of single sex spaces?"

                      Wrong question. The question is whether there is a conflict of rights between self -ID and women's rights.

                      (not all trans people support self-ID, in part because of how the above case impacts on them)

                      If you don't yet understand the problem with self ID, please pay attention to what women are saying, and who have been talking about this for some time.

                    • weka …
                      26 October 2021 at 4:08 pm

                      RBO, please tell me which of the following people you would understand to be a trans woman if you saw them and didn't know anything else about them:

                      https://boston.cbslocal.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3859903/2021/10/suspectwrentham2.jpg

                  • Red Blooded One …
                    26 October 2021 at 3:26 pm

                    In answer to Weka ….
                    oops sorry, ….

                    Sabine 11 (original Link)

                    Francesca 11.2

                    Sabine 11.3.1.2.1

                    Look, I don't AGREE or DISAGREE with the stance you are all taking, I am not in a position to speak with authority, which is why I only asked if this MAN was identifying as a Woman or Trans or if he was "just" a dirty POS male criminal.

                    God, I'm scared to ask in case of another pile on but should men be able to stop me as a gay male entering the Men's Bathroom in case I accidentally cop a glance at their dick or should they wait to complain until another male unwantedly cops a feel or photographs their dick. (ie Breaks the Law)

                    • Molly …
                      26 October 2021 at 3:31 pm

                      God, I'm scared to ask in case of another pile on but should men be able to stop me as a gay male entering the Men's Bathroom in case I accidentally cop a glance at their dick or should they wait to complain until another male unwantedly cops a feel or photographs their dick. (ie Breaks the Law)

                      Once again, you are entering a thread about a specific topic, and now you are asking for legal advice on something unrelated?

                      No-one knows where you are going with this. Do you?

                    • weka …
                      26 October 2021 at 3:32 pm

                      none of your examples are about blaming the trans community for the actions of this male. Maybe you are not understanding what is being said. If you think those examples are about blaming the trans community, please explain how.

                      (and generally I would say your comments here would work better if you explained proactively what you mean rather than us to keep having to ask what you mean).

                      should men be able to stop me as a gay male entering the Men's Bathroom in case I accidentally cop a glance at their dick or should they wait to complain until another male unwantedly cops a feel or photographs their dick. (ie Breaks the Law)

                      sorry, I have no idea what you mean there. Obviously gay men should have access to men's toilets, why wouldn't they? And obviously if any man sexually assaults a man then that would be a matter for the law. That's got nothing to do with trans people, or women's single sex spaces. So please explain why you are asking this?

                    • Red Blooded One []
                      26 October 2021 at 3:59 pm

                      "sexually assaults a man then that would be a matter for the law. That's got nothing to do with trans people, or women's single sex spaces. So please explain why you are asking this?"

                      Which is exactly why I don't think the original point in this example should be used in the Trans Argument. This case had nothing to do with it, other than he put a wig and dress on to break the law.

                    • weka …
                      26 October 2021 at 3:33 pm

                      if it feels like a pile on, just slow down and explain what you mean. We're here for the debate, it works better if there is good communication.

                    • Red Blooded One []
                      26 October 2021 at 3:46 pm

                      If you don't see the snarky comments listed as aimed at the Trans/Trans Activists or Laws aimed at protecting the Trans Community, then we can obviously never agree, and if you can't see the correlation of Men sharing a Bathroom with law abiding Gay Men and Women sharing their Bathroom with law abiding Trans Women then I can't explain it any further. Once again, agree to disagree.

                      [I’m telling you as a mod, there is an onus on you to explain what you mean, because I’m not the only one that doesn’t follow your argument. If you are going to make accusations against people here, you have to back them up or explain how. I can’t agree to disagree, because I literally don’t know what point you are trying to make. – weka]

                    • weka …
                      26 October 2021 at 4:00 pm

                      mod note for you.

                    • Red Blooded One []
                      26 October 2021 at 4:19 pm

                      Not sure how I can help you out.

                      A: poster puts link to MAN breaking the law and links the story to Trans People having the right to use Women's Bathrooms so they feel safe.

                      B: I ask ONE question, did he identify as Woman or Trans.

                      C: 3 others pile in without answering the question (Sabine did, in about the third go)

                      D: I use, what I see, as a pretty relevant example of why Men shouldn't, and probably don't, feel threatened about other men using their bathroom unless a law is broken, just as Women shouldn't feel threatened in a bathroom unless someone, Male or Female breaks the law.

                      I truly don't know how to make it any clearer. If there hadn't been a pile on I assume Sabine and I would have had a debate until, judging by my lack of debating skills, would have reached an impasse.

                      Would you like me to Ban myself again from Open Mike as I seriously tried to?

                    • Molly …
                      26 October 2021 at 4:04 pm

                      If you don't see the snarky comments listed as aimed at the Trans/Trans Activists or Laws aimed at protecting the Trans Community, then we can obviously never agree, and if you can't see the correlation of Men sharing a Bathroom with law abiding Gay Men and Women sharing their Bathroom with law abiding Trans Women then I can't explain it any further. Once again, agree to disagree.

                      Finally, we get to read your point. Another bad faith attempt at engagement.

                      If you can't point out the "aimed at the Trans/Trans Activists or Laws aimed at protecting the Trans Community,", perhaps consider it's because they don't exist.

                      The difference between sexual attraction and sexual assault, should be clear. One is an act of intimacy, one is an act of violence. Don't conflate the two.

                      It used to be accepted that women needed single sex spaces when vulnerable for the following reasons:

                      1. Most attacks on women are perpetrated by men,
                      2. Men are over 20% physically stronger than women,
                      3. For reasons of modesty, privacy and culture many women do not want to be in a state of undress where a male bodied person is present.

                      Allowing male-bodied people into female spaces is not "protecting the trans community", it is a violation of single-sex spaces. One that has foreseen consequences. One that could avoid those negative consequences by the provision of a third space.

                      That is why I personally advocated for third spaces for male-bodied transwomen, like Debbie Hayton in the UK:

                      21. Because gender identity is unprovable and unfalsifiable, the attempt to reframe transgender rights in terms of gender identity has been progressed by assertion rather than argument. That has damaged the trust and confidence that transgender people rely on to live our lives.

                      22. My own experience of being transgender has developed over the past ten years as I came out and transitioned socially, medically, and surgically. Initially I believed what I had been told: that I was some sort of woman. That provided a trivial explanation for my gender dysphoria, but it was a statement of belief. Unsurprisingly I was unable to construct an argument to support my claim to be a woman that would convince me, let alone anyone else. That caused me significant distress.

                      23. I finally found peace with myself when I reconciled myself to my sex and accepted that I did not need to assert a gender identity to break social gender norms.

                      24. My current understanding of myself is a biological male who breaks those social gender norms to be comfortable in my body and with how I relate to society. I am content because it is self-evident to me and others, and it requires no female gender identity. The protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment protects me from harassment and discrimination, while I could still use my diagnosis of gender dysphoria to access a GRC, should I wish to apply for one.

                      25. However, this understanding gives me no right to be treated by the law and by society in the same way as a woman, whenever the sexes are served differently.

                      26. I therefore ask the Committee to press the Government to consider ways in which safe-and-secure mixed-sex services and provision can be added alongside current provision that is sex-segregated. The benefits would extend to anyone who did not want to share communal facilities with their own sex. As well as transgender people. this could include parents with young children of the opposite sex and carers of vulnerable adults of the opposite sex.

                    • weka …
                      26 October 2021 at 4:05 pm

                      Which is exactly why I don't think the original point in this example should be used in the Trans Argument. This case had nothing to do with it, other than he put a wig and dress on to break the law.

                      Then you still don't understand what the problem is, despite it being explained. Self ID allows any male to enter women's spaces. That's trans women and men and NB males. All of them, at any time. Women have no way of knowing if any male is a trans woman or not. None.

                      Trans women can look like men. Stop and think about that. If you still think that trans women are people who have transitioned (eg like Georgina Beyer) then you need to educate yourself, because that is no longer true. Any male who says they are a woman at any time is now to be considered a woman. How can you not see the problem with that?

                      The man in the article may be a trans woman, we have no way of knowing. This is the whole point. We (women, and actually the rest of society) have no way of knowing.

                      The issues isn't trans rights generally, it's self-ID specifically. YOu appear to not understand what self-ID is.

                    • Molly …
                      26 October 2021 at 5:07 pm

                      Not sure how I can help you out.

                      I'm pretty sure you couldn't. After this conversation, I have serious concerns about your ability to get out of bed in the morning.

                      A: poster puts link to MAN breaking the law and links the story to Trans People having the right to use Women's Bathrooms so they feel safe.

                      A: poster puts link to PERSON breaking the law and links the story to the changes in legislation for self-id and access to single sex spaces that allowed this PERSON to enter such spaces unchallenged.

                      B: I ask ONE question, did he identify as Woman or Trans.

                      B: You ask ONE irrelevant question, did he identify as Woman or Trans. (No mention of the harm that has taken place for the women and children that were violated).

                      C: 3 others pile in without answering the question (Sabine did, in about the third go)

                      C: 3 others pile in – what can I say – Open Mike, and the question was pointed out as being irrelevant. Besides, we can now spot a bit of bad faith posturing a mile off.

                      D: I use, what I see, as a pretty relevant example of why Men shouldn't, and probably don't, feel threatened about other men using their bathroom unless a law is broken, just as Women shouldn't feel threatened in a bathroom unless someone, Male or Female breaks the law.

                      D: You use, a pretty simplistic example that you as a gay man should know better not to use. Actually, as a thinking human being. You never answered my question about a young girl disrobing in a male changing room. There is discomfort that is not connected to sexual attraction or sexual violence that relates to social mores and accepted behaviour.

                      That discomfort of being in the presence of the opposite sex when naked or vulnerable may be stronger for females than you as an individual. Culturally, it is unacceptable to some in terms of personal privacy or religious beliefs. So to admit male bodied people into such spaces, is to exclude some female bodied people from those spaces.

                      I truly don't know how to make it any clearer. If there hadn't been a pile on I assume Sabine and I would have had a debate until, judging by my lack of debating skills, would have reached an impasse.

                      I know you think it is a pile on. But it was really a lot of people trying to explain the same thing, and you demonstrating repeatedly a lack of comprehension. Debate is a telling word. It does appear there was no intention of having a discussion, and I am not going to watch another commenter on this site be 'debated' on this topic if I suspect it is not entered to in good faith, so I think you should remember that.

                • Drowsy M. Kram …
                  26 October 2021 at 4:53 pm

                  "Has the promotion of trans rights led to a surge in violations of single sex spaces?"

                  Wrong question.

                  Even if it is a "wrong question", answers may nevertheless be forthcoming – in the fullness of time.

                  And those are some edifying images you posted at 4:08/4:10/4:15 pm.

                  Suppose 'third spaces' (or third and forth spaces?) are better than no spaces at all. And maybe the less obviously transgender could also display a visible ‘sex identifier’, for added security.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dana_International

                  • Molly …
                    26 October 2021 at 5:13 pm

                    The question is:

                    How do we maintain previous safeguarding practices for single-sex spaces, services etc WHILE supporting our transgender community?

                    Have you any answer other than a version of why would we bother?

                  • weka …
                    26 October 2021 at 7:09 pm

                    And maybe the less obviously transgender could also display a visible ‘sex identifier’, for added security.

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dana_International

                    are you being sarcastic? If so it's in very poor taste, for trans women and women. Nearly all humans know what sex they are, and nearly all humans can recognise visually the sex of other humans, we don't need visible sex identifiers.

                    Trans people shouldn't be required to modify their bodies. Women shouldn't have to share single sex spaces with male bodied people. I don't know what you are trying to say (and again, I really wish people would just speak plainly and say what they mean).

              • Sabine …
                26 October 2021 at 2:07 pm

                I don't blame the trans community for anything.

                I am blaming shitty laws made by shitty politicians that allow any male to impersonate women in order to gain access to toilets, changing rooms, saunas, sports, jobs, etc etc etc and all in the name of Self ID. That is all a man has to do in order to be legally considered a 'women'. They can keep their cock n balls, their beards, their flat chests and big feet, and yet, they are still women. Go figure.

                No need for trans, But the trans community that is upset with any male being able to pretend to be a trans person in order to gain access to women and children and specifically to film little girls on the toilet can speak up any day now. Any fucking day.

                So I am not saying that this person identifies as Trans, as he does not have to anymore, I am saying he clearly impersonates women when it suits his sexual need for arousal and to satisfy his little girl on the toilet fetish.

          • Molly 11.3.1.2.3
            26 October 2021 at 2:00 pm

            Why is that important to you?

            The only people focussed on whether this person was trans or not misses the fact that the women and girls were assaulted.

            In many states in the US, the access to the space was legislatively and socially sanctioned, because now – even if someone is recognisably male – you are unable to stop them entering single sex spaces for females.

            IF they have assault or violation in mind, then they now can enter a space where women and girls may be naked, in a state of undress, or vulnerable without anybody challenging them. In fact, challenging them would be considered 'transphobic'.

            So, who could foresee this coming? Apparently, not you. But many did.

            • Sabine 11.3.1.2.3.1
              26 October 2021 at 2:12 pm

              Women and girls being attacked, who cares? Like really does anyone other then those that are being attacked care?

              Is it not part of our lot to be attacked, sexually abused, molested, filmed on the toilet without consent, and so on and so forth.

              Are we even human?

              • weka …
                26 October 2021 at 2:15 pm

                Apparently we're human if we're willing to pretend we aren't women and don't have female bodies.

                • Sabine …
                  26 October 2021 at 2:19 pm

                  Nah, then we become defective men and the only reason they have for keeping us around is simply that they still need some amubulant wombs for reproduction.

                  We – thanks to the very progressive politicians of our time, have become nothing, something that is undefinable yet everyone who wants to can be one, thanks to a shitty wig and a bit of lippy. And sometimes not even that is needed.

                  Nothing, that describes us bests.

                  • Molly …
                    26 October 2021 at 2:31 pm

                    Signifying nothing, perhaps.

                    But mostly all sound and fury. wink

                    • Sabine …
                      26 October 2021 at 2:55 pm

                      no fury in me, just sadness.

                      Gosh, i remember being a little girl in Germany in the early seventies and we all knew which public toilets were safe to go to and which ones weren't. And for a while that stopped, public spaces became somewhat safe for women of all ages and girls and little boys too. And here we are and we wear seven mile boots and going backwards. Now i am getting old, and thus will use less and less of these spaces, nor am i trying to make a career in a world were a man with lippy is 'inclusion of the femine' into a boardroom, and a team of all transwomen can be considered a womens team, nor will i ever have to compete with a part time womenman for a 'womens of the year award'.

                      So i am just sad, for every girl assaulted, every girl/boy on a cheap 5 second clip on the internet for all eternity so that some sick adults can jack off, sad for what we do and allow to be done to women and girls because in the end, we know how it will end, how it always ended. We have history books full of that particular story.

                    • Molly …
                      26 October 2021 at 2:59 pm

                      Today humour, tomorrow tears.

                      I know the sadness you hold, because it resides in me.

                      What holds me up, and brings a smile to my wet face is the voices of others (mostly women) – including yours. What gets me up is the anger at such harm being willfully ignored.

      • Molly 11.3.2
        26 October 2021 at 1:42 pm

        The issue is that someone gained access to a space previously under legislative AND social contract as a single sex space, due to the confusion arising from the issue of self-id and the practical application of the law.

        That made it easier for someone with malice to enter the space unchallenged.

        This possibility was raised, it matters little whether they identify or not.

        Single sex spaces – were created to protect women and girls when they are unclothed, sleeping or in other vulnerable states.

        • Sabine 11.3.2.1
          26 October 2021 at 1:51 pm

          They really don't care about that Molly. The only thing that is important is that persons like yourself and me accept these women as women without any buts and ifs. 🙂

          • Molly 11.3.2.1.1
            26 October 2021 at 2:47 pm

            … I'm starting to think there are a few on this forum that I wouldn't offer a piece of Hubble-Bubble to when out for a stroll…

            The inability to consider anything without using a lens of 'transphobia' is concerning.

      • Molly 11.3.3
        26 October 2021 at 1:54 pm

        But if you did need similar incidents with individuals who did identify themelves as women:

        Darren Merager

        Student at Loudoun County, US

        Who knows the truth of whether these men truly see themselves as trans, or whether they (mis)use the term to gain access to assault women and girls.

        The issue has always been about ensuring basic safeguards are maintained. Third spaces would have done that.

        • weka 11.3.3.1
          26 October 2021 at 2:07 pm

          Who knows the truth of whether these men truly see themselves as trans, or whether they (mis)use the term to gain access to assault women and girls.

          quite.

          Red Blooded, this is why I asked you what is a trans woman? The only definition I'm aware of currently is a male who self identifies as woman. How would you tell the difference between a trans woman and a man pretending to be a trans woman and a man pretending to be a woman?

          • felix 11.3.3.1.1
            26 October 2021 at 4:22 pm

            "How would you tell the difference between a trans woman and a man pretending to be a trans woman and a man pretending to be a woman?"

            And, importantly, any other man.

      • weka 11.3.4
        26 October 2021 at 1:55 pm

        "I have just one question, does the criminal in this article identify as a Woman/Trans? I can't see anywhere in the storey that says HE does."

        As others have said, at this point, from a safeguarding pov, it doesn't actually matter. Self-ID means that any male can be a woman at any time. So if someone sees a male in a women's toilets, the social expectation and pressure is to assume they are a trans woman and not question their right to be there.

        That social pressure is dangerous, and when women pointed this out we were called bigots. Including by people who should have known better.

        The other aspect is the number of left wing people who believe that women and girls (and probably boys) are collateral damage in the push for gender identity ideology to take hold.

    • Bruce 11.4
      26 October 2021 at 3:51 pm

      Thanks for providing for me the significance of this proposed legislation. I feel sure going on past form this government will make no changes without a referendum first,

  12. Reality 12
    26 October 2021 at 12:08 pm

    Judith Collins is showing her complete lack of common sense – she is demanding to know the date the traffic light system will finish. How can anyone put an exact date on that with so many unknowns ahead. No one knows what the situation will be in 3 months, 6 months, 9 months – so how foolish to put a date on it.

    • Tricledrown 12.1
      26 October 2021 at 1:50 pm

      Collins continues to Crush Nationals chances of retaining its major party status.

      Probably trying to appeal to ACT supporters while loosing more of the centre ground.

      Bishop agrees with govt approach Collins trying to be relevant has another disaster how much longer can National continue with a vote Crusher. Team play is why NZ does so well. Crusher is not a team player but a neglected bully which are the worst kind .

      • georgecom 12.1.1
        26 October 2021 at 2:46 pm

        yup, Collins has 2 faces – one coming and one going- and she doesn't know which one to follow. The latest she doesn't agree with a '2 class system' but still supports vaccine certificates and giving businesses the power to use them. She has undermined her Covid spokesperson Bishop who supports the vaccine passports and is disagreeing with the last National Party leader who won an election who pushed for vaccine certificates.

    • Ngungukai 12.2
      26 October 2021 at 4:08 pm

      She is starting to sound like Winston singing of the same hymn sheet.

  14. weka 14
    26 October 2021 at 2:13 pm

    The utter idiocy, ideological blindness (or perhaps it is intentional), and lack of class analysis in this tweet by the UK LGBTQ police network twitter account.

    They think that men who have committed violence against women, and women being victims of violence by men, is somehow analogous 😳 Let's not record any gender/sex stats, that will fix things. FFS.

    This is institutional and personal (by the tweeter) misogyny (bear in mind the UK has had recent high profile murders of women, including one woman murdered by a policeman misuing his police credentials, and police saying women should take more care to avoid being murdered by men).

    It's part of a longstanding and increasing dynamic in society that is trying to remove women's rights. And half the left is supporting this.

    https://twitter.com/TwelveDaisies/status/1452393731311689728

  15. georgecom 15
    26 October 2021 at 2:53 pm

    Hone Harawira and his mates are calling for Northland to go up to Level 3.Amongst his comments was this

    Another concern is a plan by protestors to take over the Wakaputanga celebrations at Waitangi on Thursday. Wakaputanga marks the signing of the Declaration of Independence in 1835, with festivities scaled down this year due to health restrictions. But Harawira said a “group of Pakēhā anti-vaxxers” planned to come to Waitangi from all over the country to occupy the grounds, in breach of alert levels.

    If true, what on earth leads some honky antivaccers to believe they have the right to deliberately breach restrictions to peddle some weak minded antivax propaganda. It is their right not to be vaccinated, they put their own health and risk. Where do they get off peddling some mistruths and falsehoods which might influence the naive and gullible and put others health at risk. Self entitlement at it's worst.

  17. Obtrectator 17
    26 October 2021 at 4:18 pm

    I've been waiting for this to get more prominence in the MSM – so far in vain: https://www.newsroom.co.nz/supermarket-cuts-force-mccain-and-sealord-to-restructure-jobs.

    A local company using local resources is getting shafted, supermarket customers are being deprived of choice, and a gazillion air-miles are being flown (from Alaska and China for gosh sakes!), at goodness knows what cost to the environment, all basically so that a few more pennies can trickle into the already well-stuffed pockets of Foodstuffs shareholders.

    Why isn’t half the country jumping up and down in rage? Why is Stuff (to name but one) so silent on the matter?

  18. Herodotus 18
    26 October 2021 at 5:15 pm

    Just heard university students returning to Auckland and Waikato are considered non essential, but travel will be permitted under level 2. So over the next few weeks there will be thousands of students returning to Auckland and Hamilton that under current restrictions will be unable to do so. This is from Air NZ. 😤
    I imagine the same will be for those returning by car?

    • Molly 18.1
      26 October 2021 at 5:37 pm

      I have an Auckland University student and an Auckland Unitec student at home.

      Both have been told that the remainder of the year is online. I can't see why any tertiary students would be coming to Auckland before the next semester.

      • Herodotus 18.1.1
        26 October 2021 at 6:17 pm

        Those who live in Auckland, Hamilton, Northland etc that have been studying in the South, Wellington, Pal Nth etc. There will be thousands travelling from next week onwards as their year and exams are completed. Or have completed their education diploma/Degree etc and have employment and relocating to a level 3 area
        From Air NZ
        “You have options if you still need to travel
        At Alert Level 3, travelling is limited and only essential travellers are permitted to travel between regions.
        If you would like to travel domestically with no connection through Auckland, you can do so as normal under the guidance of Alert Level 2. If you transit through Auckland, you will need to stay within the terminal while you wait for your connecting flight.”