Open mike 26/06/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:30 am, June 26th, 2014 - 455 comments
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455 comments on “Open mike 26/06/2014 ”

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  1. karol 1
    26 June 2014 at 6:50 am

    Under 30s slow to enrol to vote, especially in Auckland.

    Data released this month by the Electoral Commission, using population figures from last year’s census, estimates that just 71.9 per cent of New Zealand’s eligible voters under the age of 30 were enrolled to vote on that date, compared to 94 per cent for eligible voters 30 or older.

    According to the data, the Auckland Central electorate had the worst enrolment rate for under-30s, with just 38.79 per cent enrolled to vote.

    We have work to do.

    • Colonial Viper 1.1
      26 June 2014 at 8:15 am

      Jacinda’s team and AKL uni YL have to get on top of this.

    • Chooky 1.2
      26 June 2014 at 9:44 am

      @ karol….imo …the under 30s need to feel part of a Left youth alliance for Youth Rights and see a bit of ACTION!….i remember when i was in my twenties sticking things on telegraph poles…painting slogans on things … and joining protests …and going to political social functions( both at university and outside university)…..was a great social and political galvaniser!…We felt like we mattered and we had the ability to change the world

      Where are Labour’s youth policies ?!…specified and directed at youth and broadcast loudly and repeatedly…Youth are the Lefts’ and Labour’s future .eg… needed action on crippling student tertiary education interest and loans ?….help for the NZ unemployed to find training and meaningful work and careers

      …It needs to be spelt out for youth….that the Labour Left coalition is for them!…it is a reason why they must vote!

      ( the Nacts are gutting youth and their dreams…hence the voter apathy)

      Maybe all the Left coalition partners need to get together and create some social events for youth?…eg concerts?…. Dotcom’s parties?

      ….youth need to see that the Left coalition is where it is at for them…and the various Left Parties can work together

      • phillip ure 1.2.1
        26 June 2014 at 12:17 pm

        well..chooky..internet/mana are going to be doing a major get out the youth vote campaign..

        ..and internet/mana are the only party who doesn’t believe young people should have to get a mortgage to get an education..

        ..and they will be taking that free-education message to the young/campuses..

        ..arguing..(you’d think?)..that internet/mana will be part of the next govt..

        ..and the more votes they get..

        ..the better it will be for students..

        ..should be a potent/effective strategy..eh..?

    • The Chairman 1.3
      26 June 2014 at 11:36 am

      Coincidentally, voter turnout peaked just before Labour went right and has continued to decline as Labour became and remained centrist.

      Thoughts?

      • Colonial Viper 1.3.1
        26 June 2014 at 12:21 pm

        Hmmm Labour and Cunliffe promising a real Red party and to courageously change the nation = high polling; drifting to the cautious middle of the road political centre pandering to the comfortable middle class = low polling.

        Dunno if there is any discernable trend or lesson there, really. Let’s just carry on with campaigning BAU in the mean time.

        • fisiani 1.3.1.1
          26 June 2014 at 9:06 pm

          Cunliffe promised to be real Red and soak the rich “You betcha!!” Polling then 37%
          Now somewhere 23-27%. Is that by drifting to the middle or by careering to the Far Left. I suspect the latter.

  2. karol 2
    26 June 2014 at 7:00 am

    So some info about John Roughan’s spin job for Key are being drip fed to us.

    This bit reinforces what some of us know about Key – Key’s prime mortivation is winning, and being top dog:

    John Key briefly considered walking away from the job of Prime Minister about 18 months ago, according to a biography of National’s leader published today.

    Mr Key told the book’s author – senior Herald and former parliamentary journalist John Roughan – that he had been worried about losing, and “losing feels like failure and I don’t kinda like failure”.

    Roughan writes that Mr Key’s frustration began with the “Teagate” saga surrounding the taping of his conversation with Act candidate John Banks at a Newmarket cafe during the 2011 election campaign.

    For the first time, the Prime Minister let a trivial incident gnaw away at him for months. His problems continued to mount during 2012 – the most difficult year he has faced during the 12 years the former investment banker and money trader has been in Parliament.

    How telling is that! When some of the press starts to be critical of Key, it “gnaws away at him”. Well, compare that with the gutsiness of Cunliffe standing strong against endless MSM attacks – still standing and still motivated to do his best.

    This total spin from the PM who recently said he likes to keep well informed about the GCSB and 5 Eyes:

    As an example, he cited the errors made by the Government Communications Security Bureau with regard to the monitoring and arrest of Mr Dotcom, for which Mr Key as the minister-in-charge of the intelligence agency had to carry responsibility.

    “Nothing I could do about it. Didn’t know about it, didn’t authorise it, wasn’t part of it. You are just there.”

    And this non-explanation for sacking a couple of ministers:

    One of his first acts on his return was to sack two lower-ranked Cabinet ministers – as Roughan puts it – “for nothing in particular that they had done”.
    […]
    Of Ms Wilkinson’s interview, Mr Key told Roughan: “I said, ‘Look, you’ve done a great job as a minister, but it’s over.’ She said, ‘What have I done wrong?’ I said, ‘Nothing. You have done four years and I want to refresh.’ I said the same thing to Phil.”

    Got that, Nat ministers? You never know when the axe might fall, even if Key thinks you’ve done a great job.

    • chris73 2.1
      26 June 2014 at 7:26 am

      Really? John Key wants to win and hates to lose, who would have thought? Yeah and its not like Labour has any issues when it comes to rejuvenation

      Let me guess youknow believe this is what is going to turn the voting public against National and return Labour to power in a sweeping reversal of the polls

      (oh wait I’ve commented that must mean I’m worried)

    • Skinny 2.2
      26 June 2014 at 7:28 am

      How timely this close to the election a book pulling at the heart strings. The NZH up the National election campaign with this dross!

      All those issues of the day that Key had a leading role are smoothed over in a tell all book by JR making Key look like New Zealander’s favourite son. How corrupt putting out just prior to the election.

      • Bob 2.2.1
        26 June 2014 at 4:23 pm

        Who’s to say the book wasn’t commissioned by the Labour party to try and track down the dirt that Mike Williams couldn’t find? I don’t think any political party would want a book like this coming out about their leader at the start of an election campaign, especially when you have no editorial rights, it is way too risky.

    • Ant 2.3
      26 June 2014 at 7:47 am

      The “walking away” bit is complete spin, it goes with the bullshit about how he donates his salary to charity, still trying to reinforce the idea that he’s doing us a favour.

      • fender 2.3.1
        26 June 2014 at 10:38 am

        “.., still trying to reinforce the idea that he’s doing us a favour”.

        +1

        He’s self-absorbed and arrogant with an over-inflated ego. Phillip Ure should get him stoned so he can contemplate his hot-air-filled head..

        • phillip ure 2.3.1.1
          26 June 2014 at 12:10 pm

          i wd volunteer for that task…

          ..but pot wd not b enough..

          ..a decent dose of mdma cd well see the scales falling from his eyes..

          ..the ‘hot-air’ leaking out of his head..

          ..(btw..after trying/using most of them..i only recommend two intoxicants..

          ..pot for general use..

          ..and i feel mdma is really good for clearing crap away..if needed..

          ..but not as a weekly party-drug..

          ..it has stuff to show you..but no more than that..

          ..and repitition does not necessarily give you any more..)

          • fender 2.3.1.1.1
            26 June 2014 at 1:46 pm

            If it were up to me I’d allow you free reign to conduct any experiment you felt necessary for that particular patient 🙂

    • Kiwiri 2.4
      26 June 2014 at 8:34 am

      “Got that, Nat ministers? You never know when the axe might fall, even if Key thinks you’ve done a great job.”

      Wasn’t just Nat ministers. A number of solid, reliable Nat MPs were also told to piss off.

      • Wreckingball 2.4.1
        26 June 2014 at 11:14 am

        At least he knows when to cut the fat. Unlike Labour with the likes of Trevor Mallard still floating around, getting in fights and offering nothing to society. Sometimes it takes a great leader to make the hard decisions.

    • ianmac 2.5
      26 June 2014 at 9:22 am

      @karol”Got that, Nat ministers? You never know when the axe might fall, even if Key thinks you’ve done a great job.”
      That is a particular form of a obsessive control freak. Smiling assassin? Not that Ms Wilkinson is the only real target but all those others in his caucus. Police states do the same thing to keep the people in line. Schools used to strap kids to make an example of them.
      The Opposition attack strategy might be to needle away at his fear of failure.

    • vto 2.6
      26 June 2014 at 10:23 am

      The book must surely fall under the myriad electoral campaigning rules

    • BM 2.7
      26 June 2014 at 11:30 am

      Key is the CEO for National/NZ

      He wants the best people working for National and NZ, all those shoulder tapped have either been given a go and found wanting,really not up to it or better options have become available.

      This for me is the big difference between National and Labour, Labour candidates hang on to dear life because for many this is the best gig they’ll ever score, while National candidates tend to go into politics because they think they have something to offer and if what they have to offer isn’t good enough they take the message and move on

      • vto 2.7.1
        26 June 2014 at 11:33 am

        No, National candidates go into politics for the business opportunities it opens up post-Parliament and for the crony type deals it opens up for their rich mates.

        very corrupt

        edit – and your description of him as CEO of our country just highlights how far you lot are removed from reality. A country is not a business, a country is a community, which is why you lot fail at creating a decent new Zealand community. In fact, you cause the exact opposite of that.

        • BM 2.7.1.1
          26 June 2014 at 11:44 am

          A country is a business and should be run like one, we survive on what we export, we’re completing with all those other countries/companies out there and if we’re going to succeed we’ve got to be sharp.

          I look at Labour and their complete disdain for anyone with business experience, pretty much all their candidates come from the public service or organizations who are funded off the public teat.

          These are not the people who will make NZ a successful country, if that buffoon Cunliffe was leader all our trade agreements would be torn up within a month and we’d probably be on the brink of war with at least 3 countries.

          • vto 2.7.1.1.1
            26 June 2014 at 11:51 am

            ok, well if you think a community is a business then that is up to you, but that is incredibly sad.

            it is also so far out of synch with history it is disturbing

            ever wonder why our community has so many fails in it these days? because it aint treated like a community, it is treated like a business.

            very sad BM, very sad.

            • Draco T Bastard 2.7.1.1.1.1
              26 June 2014 at 1:21 pm

              ever wonder why our community has so many fails in it these days? because it aint treated like a community, it is treated like a business.

              QFT

          • fender 2.7.1.1.2
            26 June 2014 at 12:25 pm

            “…..if Cunliffe was leader all our trade agreements would be torn up within a month and we’d probably be on the brink of war with at least 3 countries.”

            LOL, that’s an excellent Steven Joyce impersonation you have there Frank dickhead.

            Key is the warmonger, didn’t he declare war on N Korea??

          • Tracey 2.7.1.1.3
            26 June 2014 at 12:37 pm

            national couldnt make up a dupe like you. they say. you regurgitate. no thinking required.

          • vto 2.7.1.1.4
            26 June 2014 at 1:04 pm

            BM if you loony idea that a country is a business then answer these questions;

            how many businesses provide birthing facilities for pregnant mothers?
            how many businesses build roads for all to use to get around the country, free of charge?
            how many businesses have to operate armed forces unless foreigners invade?
            how many businesses provide a judiciary and implement the rule of law?

            Your idea that the country should run like a business is just idiotic and you need to grow up.

          • Draco T Bastard 2.7.1.1.5
            26 June 2014 at 1:18 pm

            A country is a business and should be run like one

            No it’s not and no it shouldn’t. New Zealand is a community and should act like one. It is not a business with each cog in its predestined place.

            we survive on what we export, we’re completing with all those other countries/companies out there

            Even though we don’t have to and we would be better off if we didn’t.

            I look at Labour and their complete disdain for anyone with business experience, pretty much all their candidates come from the public service or organizations who are funded off the public teat.

            You mean like Rio Tinto and Warner Bros and SkyCity and…

            The private sector is funded by the government. Always has been.

            These are not the people who will make NZ a successful country, if that buffoon Cunliffe was leader all our trade agreements would be torn up within a month and we’d probably be on the brink of war with at least 3 countries.

            We could wish for the first and the latter is about to happen due to National taking us into war alongside the US in the Middle East.

            • vto 2.7.1.1.5.1
              26 June 2014 at 1:31 pm

              BM : “organizations who are funded off the public teat.”

              Well no actually BM. It is National people who do that, like the farmers of Hawkes Bay who have asked for welfare for their Ruataniwha Dam from the local Council, funded by, amongst others, elderly ratepayers. And they have received it.

              What is the matter with these so-called business people? Why can’t they keep their hands out of the public purse? Can’t they make their businesses stack up? They always seem to need corporate bludging welfare? If they can’t make their business work in the real world, with open free markets then they should shut up shop instead of asking the elderly to fund their business through rates…

              Farmers. Funded off the public teat.
              Farmers. National Party supporters and members.

              The evidence is in BM and your silly claim is out.

      • Draco T Bastard 2.7.2
        26 June 2014 at 12:49 pm

        He wants the best people working for National and NZ

        No he doesn’t – he wants the best for himself and his rich mates in the US.

  3. Gruntie 3
    26 June 2014 at 7:05 am

    Key has promised to resign when he looses so only 90 days to go – yeah!!

    • Lanthanide 3.1
      26 June 2014 at 9:13 am

      I wondered about that. If National narrowly looses, if Key stays on he’d pretty much guarantee a single-term Labour government.

      • Rob 3.1.1
        26 June 2014 at 2:01 pm

        Really , looking at the Labour list , if National narrowly looses, Labours list pretty much guarantees a single-term Labour government

  4. philj 4
    26 June 2014 at 7:12 am

    xox
    Mega merger of government back office staff is a mess. Gabriel Maklouf was new in his job and where are the ministers on this shambles. Nowhere. Gabby would have been told to get on with this ‘flagship efficiency’ gain, and the shambles eventually comes to pass. The Auditor General report is damming of government process. Our public service is being undermined. Death by a thousand cuts…. Who is next?

    • kenny 4.1
      26 June 2014 at 7:50 am

      Captain Fail’s (Joyce) hands all over this.

      What a wally.

    • Kiwiri 4.2
      26 June 2014 at 8:36 am

      “Mega merger of government back office staff is a mess.”

      And Tony Ryall is sitting on news about the next job he will go to!

    • framu 4.3
      26 June 2014 at 10:14 am

      heard Gabriel Maklouf on the radio this morning – even though hes a public servant he honestly didnt get why he should apologise to the tax payer.

    • Hayden 5.1
      26 June 2014 at 8:52 am

      frankcollingwood.co.nz is currently unregistered – it’d be a shame if it was bought and re-directed to a page full of penises or something.

      I admit to registering .com when it became available unexpectedly, the former owner (a US congressional candidate) asked if they could buy it back but I declined :(. I felt a bit guilty but I do forward any email meant for him (or at least reply with the correct address) so not too guilty.

      • Hayden 5.1.1
        26 June 2014 at 9:12 am

        Sorry, that should read <myfullname>.com (hope this works)

      • The Al1en 5.1.2
        26 June 2014 at 9:26 am

        “re-directed to a page full of penises or something.”

        Like he did with Sue’s before he changed it to the monster loonies.

      • Hayden 5.1.3
        26 June 2014 at 12:36 pm

        Whoops, he registered it about 30 minutes after this post. I guess his little prank has cost him a few more dollars; I hope he enjoyed it.

    • weka 5.2
      26 June 2014 at 9:30 am

      Riiiiight, so ‘someone’ found out that there was an old address under some hard to remove tape, and then he bought the domain name and somehow other people thought to look up Labour08.org.nz all of a sudden and tell the media, and he really doesn’t want any publicity…

      Mind you, that media link is the Waikato Times, so maybe he’s doing Moroney a favour.

  6. phillip ure 6
    26 June 2014 at 7:29 am

    the other day logie from the greens posted a powerful-piece on the systematic screwing over of the worst off by work and income..

    ..so i went looking to see what the greens were promising to do about this..

    ..(the first thing i found was a long time between posts on frogblog on this issue..years and years..since the last one..)

    .and i found their version of the universal basic income..called citizens’-income..

    ..so that’s all good..

    ..then i wanted to know what the priority for this policy is..and i couldn’t find that..

    ..cd a green plse tell me if this is on the green party top ten list of priorites…

    ..or if it has been shuffled off to go and sit beside cannabis law-reform..over there in the corner…

    ..if we shd praise logie for front-footing it on a major green poverty-busting policy..

    ..or if it was all an exercise in shedding (green-tinged) crocodile-tears..

    • The Al1en 6.1
      26 June 2014 at 7:33 am

      “crocodile-tears..”

      Having another boo hoo moment, my good fellow?

      “cd a green plse tell me”

      Why don’t you ask her yourself and let us know how you get on.

      Jan Logie MP
      Parliamentary Office
      Parliament Buildings, Wellington.

      Email: jan.logie@parliament.govt.nz

      “sit beside cannabis law-reform”

      Ah, that single issue nugget… Again.
      Way too one dimensional for effect.

      • bad12 6.1.1
        26 June 2014 at 9:24 am

        Yes steam has been seen rising here along with that god awful smell of burning neurons which signifies thought has been occurring at the Mansion concerning the Green Party commitment to real welfare reform in recent days,

        David Parker all but confirmed what i see as Labour’s hypocrisy over the issue of child poverty this morning on the wireless,(RadioNZ National),forced by Espinner to admit that besides ”work will set you free” and ”raising the minimum wage” there is no specific policy that Labour have that directly addresses that child poverty that Labour have attempted to make political capital out of repeatedly,

        MetiriaTurei, again on my wireless,(RadioNZ National), yesterday, commenting on the Liu/Labour donations Non-scandal, ”We dshould be concentrating on the issues that matter like child poverty”,

        i totally agree with Mets on this 100%, but, where is the Green Party policy that directly attacks that child poverty, ‘nurses in low decile schools’???,

        Nurses in low decile schools can simply identify and provide treatment for the worst ”seen” aspects of child poverty,this does exactly ZERO to reduce child poverty in itself,

        Where is the Green Party policy that DIRECTLY attacks child poverty???, i for one would love to discuss such policy as opposed to continually being driven to rage by the likes of the Whore Voice of International Capital,(aka NZHerald), over the non donations from Liu to Labour,

        My votes will be swayed by this one issue, and, as a long term beneficiary who is going no place in this life except the grave, i definitely do not want More, i want specific policy from Parties of the left that specifically addresses child poverty,

        At the moment, the Mana Party policy which i assume is part of the InternetMana alliance policy is the only policy i see that does that across the spectrum for ALL children,

        My vote rests with the food in schools program as proposed by Hone Harawira…

        • ianmac 6.1.1.1
          26 June 2014 at 9:30 am

          Bad 12. The specific policies will be rolled out. The alternative budget is just that and not detailed policy. Watch their space.

          • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.1.1
            26 June 2014 at 9:32 am

            Hmmmm I think you can be assured that bad12 will quizz you on this comment here over the next 4-8 weeks as policy eventuates (or not).

            • bad12 6.1.1.1.1.1
              26 June 2014 at 9:45 am

              Indeed CV, that’s the second or third watch this space i have had this week, i see no reason to stop my questioning,

              IF and When such policy is proposed i will happily eat my share of H Pie if that is required,

              However, the Green Party, and, Labour, including in Posts here at the Standard have made much of ”child poverty”,

              Now i want both Parties to ”make much” with policy that directly attacks that poverty, not on the basis of ”we will reduce unemployment to 4%”, or, ”we will raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour”,

              What do both Labour and the Green Parties propose for those children who WILL miss out, and, there will be plenty of them,

              ‘Fuck off and die’ perhaps…

              • karol …
                26 June 2014 at 6:12 pm

                Bad, in my posts on poverty I linked to green Party policy pages.

                Here is the Green Party Policy on children, with tackling poverty being a major party of it.

                At the bottom it links to relevant policies that also incorporate actions aimed at tackling child poverty – eg the education one that includes the policy for schools as community hubs.

                I actually think there’s more detail to the Greens’ polices on this, spread acorss a range of areas, than is in the Mana Policy.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  26 June 2014 at 6:14 pm

                  I actually think there’s more detail to the Greens’ polices on this, spread acorss a range of areas, than is in the Mana Policy.

                  There is, Mana doesn’t seem to have developed a lot of policy yet.

                • bad12 …
                  26 June 2014 at 6:50 pm

                  karol, question, its MMP politics what will the Green party trade away to get seats around the Cabinet table,

                  i cannot answer that, i would suggest you cannot either, Russell Norman has alluded to there being No bottom lines, i don’t do ”blind faith” politics and will take it from Russell that ”nurses in schools” might be the grand outcome of such an MMP negotiation,(not on evidence just bloody mindedness),

                  Mana have the ”food in schools program” it speaks for itself, basic bread and butter stuff, while i have previously expressed my unhappiness that the policy panders to the meme that kids going hungry is simply a matter of bad parenting, i also ”know” that just given money, there will be some kids that will miss out and call that whatever you want,

                  ”Food in schools” isn’t just an aid for the poorest of kids who might or might not have the worst of parents, food in schools will be a direct benefit to hard pressed hard working parents in any situation because they will know whether they need the program on one day of any month or choose to use the service every day of every month it is there for them,

                  No kid need go without, the food in schools program ensures that…

                  • karol …
                    26 June 2014 at 7:32 pm

                    Yes. Mana has a direct action approach which is excellent.

                    The IP on the other hand, does not seem to give tackling poverty any kind of priority first-up attaention.

                    For the Greens last election, Child Poverty was one of the 3 main issues they campaigned on. We haven’t yet seen what the 3 priorities will be for this election. But Turei has been continuing to put tackling poverty front and centre – eg with their latest education policy.

          • bad12 6.1.1.1.2
            26 June 2014 at 9:56 am

            Unfortunately and unhappily ianmac i have my doubts, Espinner quizzed David Parker directly on ”money” specifically set aside to attack child poverty,

            The answer from Parker,”reduced unemployment” ”raised minimum wage” and, some babble about monies directed from taxes into their compulsory Kiwisaver,

            Work may well set us all free,(hugely debatable), but Parker appears blind to the children who’s parents are as much ‘out of work’ as they are ‘in’,

            Children reliant upon benefits??? not a mention from Parker…

            • Rob 6.1.1.1.2.1
              26 June 2014 at 2:05 pm

              How are your children Bad , what type of state are they in?

              • bad12 …
                26 June 2014 at 3:06 pm

                How is the lump of shit stuck in your cranial cavity Rob, what state is it in…

                • Rob …
                  26 June 2014 at 3:25 pm

                  what a kind and generous soul you are Bad

                  • bad12 …
                    26 June 2014 at 4:07 pm

                    It might learn you Rob, it might learn you in the vein of not supposing that i have children and then not supposing that if i did ”their state” need be part of a discussion here at the Standard,

                    It might learn you Rob, but i doubt it…

                • Clemgeopin …
                  26 June 2014 at 3:41 pm

                  Lol. Witty! I thought of George B Shaw, Samuel Langhorne Clemens, Samuel Johnson and Winston Churchilll…all at once!

            • Daveosaurus 6.1.1.1.2.2
              26 June 2014 at 6:10 pm

              Answer me this: how will forcing unwilling women to breed, as you advocate here, help to alleviate child poverty?

              • bad12 …
                26 June 2014 at 7:39 pm

                Daveosaurus, are you suggesting that abortion alleviates child poverty??? please expand upon how abortion alleviates child poverty,

                i don’t advocate forcing unwilling women to breed, in the case of rape i believe there is far far more psychological harm having been incurred than is necessary to satisfy the current Law that such psychological harm will be far worse should the child be carried to term,so in the case of rape abortion is justified,

                Now lets get this straight are you advocating that society should alleviate child poverty by deciding who can and who cannot breed children while using abortion as the means of preventing such poverty stricken children from being born…

        • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.2
          26 June 2014 at 9:30 am

          Full employment policy for all 25 years and under, 95% of the charges of a power bill to be strictly variable, increased minimum wage to $15.75/hr immediately, tax free income for first $10K, increase all core benefits by $35 pw.

          Sorted.

          • Skinny 6.1.1.2.1
            26 June 2014 at 9:42 am

            +1 Well said CV.
            It is a pity your not in the House, you would have the better of most of the current lot of MP’s.

          • bad12 6.1.1.2.2
            26 June 2014 at 9:48 am

            CV, thanks but no thanks, as a long term beneficiary i have enough to meet my needs,

            Kids first, i vote my 35 bucks goes toward the children reliant upon benefits…

            • Draco T Bastard 6.1.1.2.2.1
              26 June 2014 at 1:41 pm

              That’s nice of you – to insist that those that don’t have enough not get more because you have enough.

              • bad12 …
                26 June 2014 at 2:57 pm

                That’s pathetically stupid of you to misinterpret my comment, but expected given your obvious shortcomings,

                i would suggest that no-one in my situation Needs more thus my pointing out to CV to whom i think any monies affordable in the current financial paradigm should be directed at,

                Feel free tho to feed us some more of your ”print it print it print it” solution to monetary woes i need a good laugh…

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  26 June 2014 at 3:17 pm

                  i would suggest that no-one in my situation Needs more thus my pointing out to CV to whom i think any monies affordable in the current financial paradigm should be directed at,

                  The problem with your assertion is that the government has to work on generalities and not specifics.

                  Feel free tho to feed us some more of your ”print it print it print it” solution to monetary woes i need a good laugh…

                  As you obviously didn’t understand it I suggest you go back and re-read it. Our monetary issues don’t really have anything to do with money.

                  • bad12 …
                    26 June 2014 at 3:45 pm

                    Do you often speak in the language of Gobbledy-Gook Draco, my point to CV was that I, you do understand i, or I, one can but hope, as a long term beneficiary did not NEED and extra $35, although i could find things to spend it on if i had it,

                    In the current fiscal paradigm, and feel free to ‘thunk’ up your very own fiscal paradigm if you must, but for this conversation i prefer this Planet in this Universe, i would prefer that any monies able to be allocated toward those with the least in our society went toward the most vulnerable,

                    ”The Government has to work on generalities and not specifics” please stop now Draco, there’s a Post going right now about Slippery’s Mumbo-Jumbo, if outdoing Him in the language was an indicator you would have to be a sitter for the job…

                    • weka …
                      26 June 2014 at 4:15 pm

                      I can’t follow your point either bad. Are you saying that no long term beneficiaries (without kids) need extra money, or just that you don’t? If it’s the former you are wrong. If it’s the latter, I’m not sure how that’s relevant to the conversation, as Draco pointed out, govts can’t set benefit rates to suit every individual.

                    • bad12 …
                      26 June 2014 at 4:30 pm

                      Weka what i am obviously arguing is in a situation of financial constraint there has to be priorities,

                      IF you want to argue that ALL benefits are raised feel free, but i do not propose to sit here in a pointless hair splitting exercise with the likes of you who revels in such games,

                      i would for instance, argue that it IS affordable given the current financial constraints, and in line with the proposal from David Parker to raise taxes, that removing ALL taxation from the benefits of those with children should be a Labour lead Governments first priority,

                      As a beneficiary i would vote according to my approval of such a policy and would happily knowing that my basic NEEDS are met accept that priority…

                    • bad12 …
                      26 June 2014 at 4:33 pm

                      PS, weka i would also argue that all beneficiaries should be paying 25% of their income as rent full stop,

                      How such a situation would be arrived at is a totally new discussion…

                    • weka …
                      26 June 2014 at 5:50 pm

                      It’s a curious right wing argument from a Mana voter.

                      Mysefl I think all benefits should raised to the level they were pre-1990 cuts (with allowance for normal rises in that time), and that supplementary benefits are made more accessible.

                      It’s false economy to suggest that we can’t afford this, when making people live below the povert line ends up cost the state in terms of health, mental health, crime, etc.

                      Not to mention unfair. Why someone who’s been raised in poverty all of sudden becomes worth less once they turn 18 is beyond me.

                    • bad12 …
                      26 June 2014 at 6:38 pm

                      i am sure Weka of you having a grand success in the powerful campaign you are running, well running nowhere really, to have all benefits restored such,

                      Point out the right wing nature of my comment weka,

                      What i am commenting is upon what might be chiseled out of Labour, not some pie in the sky fantasy, and, the fact that such will have to be forced from a Labour Party in Government tells you who the real right wingers are…

                    • weka …
                      26 June 2014 at 7:26 pm

                      “Point out the right wing nature of my comment weka,”

                      “We can’t afford it” smacked of austerity.

                      “What i am commenting is upon what might be chiseled out of Labour, not some pie in the sky fantasy, and, the fact that such will have to be forced from a Labour Party in Government tells you who the real right wingers are…”

                      And yet you put up the idea of a cap on accommodation of 25% of income. Do Labour have such a policy in their budget? If not, how would it be paid for?

                      The reason benefit rates aren’t raised is ideological. If it wasn’t then they would have been raised during the Clark years. And it’s not pie in the sky financially, as I pointed out, it costs the state to keep people poor.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  26 June 2014 at 3:43 pm

                  In fact, watch this for good info about government creating money.

                  • bad12 …
                    26 June 2014 at 4:00 pm

                    Draco, my data cap does not allow me the luxury of watching ooddles of pointless Oooo-tube videos, and, as i fully understand the ramifications of a Government wildly printing money i doubt the present one you link to will be of any useful purpose to me,

                    Perhaps you should halt your fantasy for five minutes and consider the ramifications for the country of unbridled money printing as you suggest vis a vis the power of the International Banking Cartel and the current trading model our economy was built upon to a greater or lesser extent over the years…

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      26 June 2014 at 4:05 pm

                      Ah, so you’re deciding to remain ignorant.

                    • bad12 …
                      26 June 2014 at 4:19 pm

                      Kerlap, Kerlap, kerlap, that statement Draco has as much validity as me directing one in your direction in the vein of ”Oh so you have decided to remain being a wanker”,

                      Debate the issue Draco, your gauge of the level of my ignorance is immaterial to the discussion…

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      26 June 2014 at 5:09 pm

                      I was debating the issue but you got upset when it was pointed out that you were wrong and started throwing invalid insults based upon your ignorance around.

                    • bad12 …
                      26 June 2014 at 5:43 pm

                      Can’t quite get the last word out ae Draco, around, around, around, let me guess, the absurdity of the Government of New Zealand waving the big finger at the world and printing all of its budget as new money…

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      26 June 2014 at 7:10 pm

                      As I said

          • Bearded Git 6.1.1.2.3
            26 June 2014 at 10:42 am

            @ CV

            ….And get rid of youth rates, the 90 day rule. The Greens and IMP will push for other anti-poverty policies as part of coalition.

            @bad12

            … just hang in there-you don’t release policy until you can see the whites of their eyes, otherwise National will steal it.

            Also the public’s attention span is only the month before the election.

            • bad12 6.1.1.2.3.1
              26 June 2014 at 11:01 am

              Bearded git, to a certain extent i agree with you, David Parker ”floated” the idea of tax cuts from a second term Labour Government at the press conference yesterday,

              On the six o’clock news either Slippery or English came out with the ”us too”,

              Of course David Parker introducing ”tax cuts” into the discussion simply leads me to ask the questions that i have at comment (17) today,

              Can’t afford superannuation as it is but can go into the 2014 election touting tax cuts from a second term Labour Government???

              Sir(spit)Roger Douglas must be positively beaming, who needs an ACT Party when you have a David Parker as proposed Finance Minister…

              • Colonial Viper …
                26 June 2014 at 11:15 am

                Labour continuing to buy into the neoliberal framing that tax cuts are good

                Who are they speaking to? The middle and upper middle class of course

                Household income $80K p.a. plus

                Meanwhile we just can’t AFFORD Super and we can’t AFFORD a full employment policy for people 25 and under.

              • Clemgeopin …
                26 June 2014 at 11:41 am

                Did it occur to you that the ‘tax cut’ could be a reduced rate for beneficiaries, minimum wage workers, the lower income brackets, super annuitants? Could be that, I am thinking.

                • bad12 …
                  26 June 2014 at 3:53 pm

                  Clem, a lot of things ”occur” to me, however, i am not proposing myself as the next Minister of Finance,

                  IF David Parker is suggesting removing the taxation from benefits all well and good, BUT, that is not what He said at the press conference, SO that is not what i believe He intended to convey to anyone watching such on the news…

            • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.2.3.2
              26 June 2014 at 12:03 pm

              BG – getting rid of youth rates is a good idea

          • Wreckingball 6.1.1.2.4
            26 June 2014 at 11:23 am

            Great idea CV, chuck more money at child poverty… A lack of money is not the problem in the large majority of cases, the problem is a lack of care. Poor parenting. Parents that spend money of alcohol and ciggies instead of feeding their kids brekkie.

            $$$ will not fix the problem at all – show me a policy that actually confronts the actual issue – people not caring.

            • Te Reo Putake 6.1.1.2.4.1
              26 June 2014 at 11:48 am

              A bit shallow, that analysis. Poverty is a result of a variety of factors, including attitudes like yours. The main cause of poverty is capitalism. But some symptoms include the massive advertising and availability of tobacco and alcohol. If you want policy in those areas, Iain Lees Galloway of the NZ Labour Party has legislation ready to swiftly wind down the availability of ciggies. I suggest you vote Labour at the election if you actually care at all.

            • Clemgeopin 6.1.1.2.4.2
              26 June 2014 at 11:53 am

              Are you just an idiot or a complete one, being a RWNjob too?

            • vto 6.1.1.2.4.3
              26 June 2014 at 11:53 am

              that is so very very ignorant

              tell me wreckingball, how come some nations do not have poverty problems?

            • Wreckingball 6.1.1.2.4.4
              26 June 2014 at 1:41 pm

              Yes I know that analysis is a bit shallow but it is, to an extent, true. I completely agree that ciggies and alcohol should be much more difficult to obtain. Double the price of both items and place greater limits on opening hours. Also putting more resources into drug crime and increasing sentences for manufacturers would be good.

              You cannot though say that ‘capitalism’ causes poverty. Do you think that there was no poverty before capitalism? That is rubbish. There has always been, and always will be, poverty.

              Secondly, there are no countries without poverty. Maybe a couple of exceptions such as Monaco. Poverty is a relative measure so there will always be people in poverty in every country. If you placed a person in poverty in NZ in Afganistan, you would probably find that they are not in poverty.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                26 June 2014 at 1:57 pm

                You cannot though say that ‘capitalism’ causes poverty.

                Yes we can because every time we try capitalism the poverty gets worse.

                Do you think that there was no poverty before capitalism?

                Back before recorded history when we were nomads? No, there wasn’t any poverty then as the community had to work together to ensure survival.

                Secondly, there are no countries without poverty.

                But is that the way it should be?

            • Draco T Bastard 6.1.1.2.4.5
              26 June 2014 at 1:48 pm

              Ah, more stereotypical BS from a RWNJ.

              You need to read: Ten Myths About Welfare

        • Draco T Bastard 6.1.1.3
          26 June 2014 at 1:37 pm

          but, where is the Green Party policy that directly attacks that child poverty

          Why don’t you look on their site? It’s easy enough to find.

          • phillip ure 6.1.1.3.1
            26 June 2014 at 5:59 pm

            draco..that is just a front-page..

            ..and i spent a bit of time trying to find what their actual ‘bottom-line’..(snigger!) poverty-busting policies are..

            ..and all i cd find is the citizens’ income..

            ..r u able to clarify if that policy is on their top ten list..?

            ..or if it is in the also-rans..?

            ..that cd answer a lot of our questions/concerns..

            ..about ‘green-crocodile-tears’..

            ..and little more..

            • Draco T Bastard 6.1.1.3.1.1
              26 June 2014 at 6:07 pm

              Of course it’s the bloody front page – I wasn’t about to do your work for you.

  7. Sanctuary 7
    26 June 2014 at 7:49 am

    “…According to the data, the Auckland Central electorate had the worst enrolment rate for under-30s, with just 38.79 per cent enrolled to vote…”

    Surely this must reflect the high number of young, transient foreigners? How many young people in central Auckalnd are even eligable to vote, I wonder?

    My view is National’s long term meta-strategy is is a GOP like plan to delay change by permanently suppressing the vote to a new normal of 70% or less. If they can do that, then all they need to do is pursuade 35% of the population (white, middle class and provincial/rural) to vote for the right and they’ll be in power forever.

    • kenny 7.1
      26 June 2014 at 7:53 am

      Good point.

    • Chooky 7.2
      26 June 2014 at 11:21 am

      many young people have been dis-empowered and disillusioned by Neoliib policies and parties…for them society is ‘dog eat dog’…..they need a reason to vote Labour and the Left coalition ….at the moment it is cool to be apathetic

    • Saarbo 7.3
      26 June 2014 at 11:33 am

      Yep.

      Also the Electoral Commision’s marketing is absolutely shit house (that ridiculous orange stick figure, WTF, zero emotional connection to any market). I understand that they are looking at using Lorde to encourage young people to vote, which is a good start, but also look towards other target markets, so they need to use other local artists like Kora and Aaron Tokona…IMHO

    • infused 7.4
      26 June 2014 at 2:32 pm

      You’re basically calling them stupid.

      gg.

  8. phillip ure 8
    26 June 2014 at 7:52 am

    re labours 3 cent tax increase on the top ten(?) percent of earners..(way to sock it to them..!..!..eh..?..)

    ..one of those corporate-media polls has over 60% opposition to this idea..(and yes..i know it is only a crappy online poll..but a margin like that can’t be ignored)

    ..and that made me think/wonder..at why a tax aimed at that top-percentile has such widespread opposition from those not effected by it..

    ..(surely they all can’t be aspirational..?..hoping to be there themselves soon..?..)

    ..so then i moved to think about the price labour were clearly paying..for such a small increase..

    ..and wondered why they don’t instead promise a flipped-on-its’-head version of user-pays..?

    ..as treasury research showed a small financial transaction tax on inter-bank dealings..wd raise enough money to enable the govt of the day to do away with gst..altogether..

    ..so..why do labour feel..that they cd not sell a package to the electorate..of..(say a 1%) tax-cut for all citizens..?)..to be paid for from some of that large wedge to be had from a financial transaction tax on the banks/financial-institutions..?

    ..if their 3 cents increase on the richest is opposed by over 60%..

    .they cd hardly do worse with that alternative approach…eh..?

    • Tom Jackson 8.1
      26 June 2014 at 8:55 am

      The joke is that it’s not anywhere near enough. Hence our ridiculous debt and poor public services. Comparing NZ’s highest tax rate with other developed countries is instructive.

      ..and that made me think/wonder..at why a tax aimed at that top-percentile has such widespread opposition from those not effected by it..

      Most people don’t understand why we pay tax, so it’s no surprise that they have stupid views about it.

      • Colonial Viper 8.1.1
        26 June 2014 at 9:36 am

        The tax rate has to be high enough to deter companies from giving out million dollar remuneration packages.

        89% over 10x the countries median wage of $44K pa should do it.

        • Lanthanide 8.1.1.1
          26 June 2014 at 11:16 am

          If you tax them so harshly, they’ll just:
          1. Pay even more before-tax so that the CEO gets a decent after-tax salary (I guess the government wins in this case, but since the money is coming from their customers…)
          2. Structure remuneration in a different way to avoid the tax. Eg company share options that attract a capital gain tax of 15%. Most of the wealthy in the US pay capital gains tax rather than income tax and thereby pay much less tax than their employees.

          • Colonial Viper 8.1.1.1.1
            26 June 2014 at 12:31 pm

            Draft it up tightly and some of these issues can be reduced albeit probably not eliminated.

            It sends a message though – if you want a higher top end income threshold before the top tax rate kicks in, you need to be supporting an increased median wage.

          • Draco T Bastard 8.1.1.1.2
            26 June 2014 at 3:20 pm

            And that just means we need to close those loopholes as well.

            I really do wonder about people who say that we can’t do anything to fix thing because reasons where those reasons usually end up being a large part of what needs to be fixed.

  9. mickysavage 9
    26 June 2014 at 7:59 am

    Gee David Parker and Stephen Joyce are on Morning Report and Parker has handed Joyce’s arse to him on a plate. When Parker was given the chance to respond to Joyce’s claims Joyce kept interrupting and trying to over talk him in typical tory style. Will put up a link when it is available.

    • Colonial Viper 9.1
      26 June 2014 at 8:12 am

      That is awesome.

    • Te Reo Putake 9.2
      26 June 2014 at 8:27 am

      I think Espiner ambushed Joyce.

      Parker spoke for a couple of minutes, and it seemed his contribution had ended. Espiner then introduced Joyce and invited him to comment. He smirked his way through a few misrepresentations for a minute or so (night classes for macrame, anyone?). Then Espiner said something like “I believe we’ve still got David Parker in the studio”, switched to him, leaving Joyce dangling while Parker Fisked his weasel words. Joyce tried to interrupt Parker, failed, and found himself both debating Parker, and even worse, losing to him. Nice.

      • Kiwiri 9.2.1
        26 June 2014 at 8:52 am

        Joyce is such an arrogant ****:

        http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/mnr/mnr-20140626-0750-government_reacts_to_labours_alternate_budget-048.mp3

        Parker spoke well and could have continued to talk about Labour’s policies for all the time available despite Joyce’s bumbling, faltering interruptions.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 9.2.1.1
          26 June 2014 at 9:04 am

          Espiner might yet grow into the rôle after a shocking start.

          If he pulls a stunt like that again some National Party lackey will sack him.

          • Bearded Git 9.2.1.1.1
            26 June 2014 at 10:48 am

            OAB-agreed, I thought Espiner did a pretty good job here. Now if he could actually ask Key a couple of tough questions he will earn respect.

        • Tom Jackson 9.2.1.2
          26 June 2014 at 9:07 am

          as if you needed any more proof that conservatives are nothing more than worthless looters of the common good…

          • One Anonymous Bloke 9.2.1.2.1
            26 June 2014 at 9:29 am

            From his performance in that exchange, Joyce doesn’t have the smarts to be a looter.

            • Colonial Viper 9.2.1.2.1.1
              26 June 2014 at 9:43 am

              Problem is, you don’t need to be that smart to be a neoliberal looter…as has been proven time and time again

        • Clemgeopin 9.2.1.3
          26 June 2014 at 9:31 am

          Joyce comes across as the biggest bull shitter in this government, equal first with Key.
          English is not too far behind, neck and neck with Parata.

          On that clip, Joyce sounded frantic with his fast paced diatribe as though he was in a great hurry to go to the toilet.

          • greywarbler 9.2.1.3.1
            26 June 2014 at 9:33 am

            So where is Key, and silky smooth snaky Ryall?

            • Clemgeopin 9.2.1.3.1.1
              26 June 2014 at 9:39 am

              Equal first with Key. Ryall is on the second rung equal with English and Parata.

          • left for dead 9.2.1.3.2
            26 June 2014 at 10:37 am

            @ Clemgeopin…..HeHe…..he was going to the toilet,live on NatRad.but i’m quessing he’s full of it.{sorry moderator,an attempt at humour}

        • greywarbler 9.2.1.4
          26 June 2014 at 9:43 am

          I was so impressed with David Parker on Radionz. He remained lucid, kept on with his points and did not allow Steven space to slip in and dominate the discourse even though he kept up a constant refrain in the background. Halfway through Parker stopped and said reasonably and reproachfully that Steven you have had time to speak and now it is my time.

          The delivery was excellent and he was discussing the CGT which Steven was putting down and I didn’t hear all the details but Parkerwas believable and listenable and getting his point over. If Labour can continue being robust, definite, putting over their policy and putting dissenting others in their place, they will succeed. Winston does it, he is excellent, and is listenable even when you know he is wrong, so when he is right, he gets attention and votes.
          Go Labour.

        • Clemgeopin 9.2.1.5
          26 June 2014 at 1:51 pm

          Questions For Oral Answer June 26
          https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#inbox/146d57ef11a919f0

          Q3 today:
          Hon DAVID PARKER to the Associate Minister of Finance: Does he still believe that a 33 cent top marginal income tax rate is the reason for fewer departures to Australia in 2014?

      • greywarbler 9.2.2
        26 June 2014 at 9:48 am

        Macrame? I didn’t get that. But fishing net making could be a valuable skill to achieve.

        • vto 9.2.2.1
          26 June 2014 at 10:45 am

          Joyce’s call re macramé classes was a blink of an insight to the arrogance and nastiness of National Party people.

          Joyce was an arrogant smartarse with that comment, what an arsehole.

        • freedom 9.2.2.2
          26 June 2014 at 11:22 am

          Joyce is all about the digits, so I would pay good money to watch Joyce try to learn the intricate and complex manipulation of digits required to repair a fishing net.

          • Clemgeopin 9.2.2.2.1
            26 June 2014 at 11:50 am

            He and his cabinet colleagues may benefit from a night class tutorial with experts instructing them on how to fix their Nova pay mess.

      • mickysavage 9.2.3
        26 June 2014 at 10:31 am

        I think Espiner ambushed Joyce.

        You might be right and that may be why Joyce tried to obliterate what Parker was saying. Shows how scared they are of actually debating matters.

        Joyce’s claim that the increase of tax will drive Kiwis overseas is a joke. If this is true then the increase in GST should have done a lot of damage …

        • Draco T Bastard 9.2.3.1
          26 June 2014 at 4:24 pm

          It’s been awhile since I watched this but, IIRC, right-wing pundits are a) taught to talk over the other party to prevent them getting their point across and b) to always answer a different question than the one asked so that preferred talking points can be reiterated time and time again.

    • ianmac 9.3
      26 June 2014 at 9:10 am

      Yes a really good spot for David Parker. I am biased against Joyce but thought his rebuttal was rude, blustering and panicky. When David asked to correct the Joyce misinformation Joyce kept interrupting and doing his usual sneering. Points awarded David 10. Steven 0

    • Chooky 9.4
      26 June 2014 at 9:28 am

      +100 Parker very good….and Joyce very angry and concerned…Labour fairness and transparency policy is getting them where it hurts!

      Espiner also getting better imo ….and letting Labour have a good go without interruption

      • ianmac 9.4.1
        26 June 2014 at 9:35 am

        Though on the 8:30 news the report focussed on the Joyce rebuttal. I listened to the 9am news and luckily it just featured on David’s plan to claw back tax dodging. Better.

        • In Vino 9.4.1.1
          26 June 2014 at 8:41 pm

          Good point – I heard that shorter version, and what I heard of Parker sounded better. But Joyce loudly interrupted several times. When Parker rebuked him, it seemed to me that Espiner did not support Parker: he immediately asked Joyce to do his rebuttal, with Parker still cut off. The longer version may be different, but from the 8.30 version, I still thought that Espiner allowed Joyce to curtail and obstruct Parker, then gave him back the microphone. Nasty.

    • Ergo Robertina 9.5
      26 June 2014 at 9:49 am

      Good to see something approaching head to head debate which Nats steadfastly avoid in the media. Steven Joyce’s manufactured fulmination over a 3c tax rise on personal income was fascinating, would love to see his reaction to a proper tax policy!

    • fender 9.6
      26 June 2014 at 10:23 am

      Joyce is up the creek with the same old slogans of misrepresentation for a paddle. He reckons 3 cents extra tax for those above 150k will see them run off to Australia to be taxed even more heavily 🙄 .

      There was a time when he could fake an air of knowledge and intelligence, (with help from the likes of Paul Holmes who used to call him slick etc. on Q&A), but he’s become a parody of his former self and now just reeks of propaganda and desperation.

  10. Colonial Viper 10
    26 June 2014 at 8:39 am

    Sycophantic Tory Hack Glucina has a nice smear at Dotcom

    Apparently he is an irresponsible parent putting his children in danger.

    Kim, who was not informed about the interview before publication, made contact with his estranged wife on Monday about her story which he felt should have remained private. Two nights earlier, to celebrate the All Blacks’ victory, he had invited 20 random strangers to an all-night pool party at his Coatesville mansion, where his five children slept soundly.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11280914

    • phillip ure 10.1
      26 June 2014 at 8:44 am

      i liked how john campbell called glucina an ‘establishment-lickspittle’..

    • The Al1en 10.2
      26 June 2014 at 8:58 am

      “about her story which he felt should have remained private.”

      A bit cry wolf considering kdc doesn’t mind instagramming about mystery women.

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11272864

      • Colonial Viper 10.2.1
        26 June 2014 at 9:10 am

        Oh come now, she’s an international colleague, contracted to do some work on his media productions, not a “mystery woman” 😉

        • The Al1en 10.2.1.1
          26 June 2014 at 9:23 am

          Just saying CV, those who play games via the media can hardly complain if they’re on the back end of a story.

          • phillip ure 10.2.1.1.1
            26 June 2014 at 9:36 am

            continuing yr pattern of posting high-quality links..eh..?

          • weka 10.2.1.1.2
            26 June 2014 at 9:38 am

            How is using instagram playing media games?

            • The Al1en 10.2.1.1.2.1
              26 June 2014 at 9:41 am

              It’s not like KDC’s every move isn’t being watched by the media, and not like he doesn’t court the attention.
              Instagram, tweet, what ever, it’s all live by the sword etc…

              • weka …
                26 June 2014 at 9:47 am

                ok, so if famous internet gen people use the internet it’s only because they want media attention and are playing media games, not because they like the internet and consider it a normal way of interacting with the world?

                • The Al1en …
                  26 June 2014 at 9:52 am

                  No, I think you have arrived at the wrong conclusion because “famous internet gen people use the internet it’s only because they want media attention and are playing media games, not because they like the internet and consider it a normal way of interacting with the world?” because it completely ignores the fact that KDC is a media whore with an obvious agenda.

                  If it were you or I, then the statement would probably be true, but then we aren’t using the media to our own ends, right?
                  If he uses the media, he has to expect to be the butt end of it once in a while.

                  • weka …
                    26 June 2014 at 9:56 am

                    I think it’s because I don’t get why you think that particular instagram is whoring. It just looks like normal instagram usage to me.

                    A gossip columnist says he wants his private life to remain private and you think that connects somehow with him using instagram about his public life? I don’t get it.

                    “If it were you or I, then the statement would probably be true, but then we aren’t using the media to our own ends, right?
                    If he uses the media, he has to expect to be the butt end of it once in a while.”

                    by media, do you mean MSM (not new media)? In which case my point stands. You are suggesting that anything KDC does that has any kind of exposure to the world is media whoring simply because he is high profile. It doesn’t make sense.

                    Sometimes sex workers just like to have sex without the whoring.

                    • The Al1en …
                      26 June 2014 at 10:04 am

                      I wish I could find a link to the report about the tweet which went ‘someone here who doesn’t even want it’, which is certainly a better example of kdc airing dirty laundry in public than Glucina’s.

                      “Sometimes sex workers just like to have sex without the whoring.”

                      No doubt. I think every one but Colin Craig does.

                      “by media, do you mean MSM (not new media)? ”

                      Any media that gets picked up by the msm, like tweets and so forth.
                      He has to be aware that what he posts will be reported on, even if it’s just fun. As a mega user of social media and a courter of msm, his regret at Mona’s story being public is just a bit lame.

                    • weka …
                      26 June 2014 at 10:17 am

                      You seem to be making the argument that people who use social media have no right to privacy, or at least have no right to feel angry or hurt if their private lives are used by the MSM.

                    • The Al1en …
                      26 June 2014 at 10:19 am

                      “You seem to be making the argument that people who use social media have no right to privacy, or at least have no right to feel angry or hurt if their private lives are used by the MSM.”

                      No I’m not, I’m saying people who use the media have no right to moan about the media wanting to write about them, whether it’s positive or negative.

                      And by use, to clarify, I mean as a means of accomplishing or achieving something, to employ.

                    • phillip ure …
                      26 June 2014 at 10:24 am

                      r u trying to set a new benchmark in ill-thought out/simplistic-‘reasoning’..?

                    • weka …
                      26 June 2014 at 10:58 am

                      “No I’m not, I’m saying people who use the media have no right to moan about the media wanting to write about them, whether it’s positive or negative.”

                      Ok, but what does that have to do with that particular instagram? You seemed to be using that as evidence of something about KDC.

                    • The Al1en …
                      26 June 2014 at 11:26 am

                      “but what does that have to do with that particular instagram? You seemed to be using that as evidence of something about KDC.”

                      If you’re asking me to say I think kdc was having it off with the model and boasting about, I couldn’t and wouldn’t, given the info at hand.
                      The point was, to which you replied with “Ok”, is kdc’s gripe about privacy.
                      The “particular instagram” is “evidence” of nothing but kdc’s willingness to share his private moments.

                    • weka …
                      26 June 2014 at 11:53 am

                      I haven’t watched the instagram, only seen the link from here, but on the face of it, it looks like his professional life not his personal life. She came here to be part of his music videos, the instagram is of her being sung to by a busker. That’s work life. Whether her and KDC are fucking or not is irrelevant.

                      In essence you are arguing that someone in the public eye has no right to a distinction between personal and private. That’s pretty fucked up.

                    • The Al1en …
                      26 June 2014 at 11:56 am

                      “In essence you are arguing that someone in the public eye has no right to a distinction between personal and private.”

                      It’s the princess Di thing. Fu(ked up or not, people who use the media have no right to moan about the media wanting to write about them, whether it’s positive or negative.
                      If you’re a media whore, whether you want to screw for free or not, you have to expect zoom lenses. It’s part of the game, so cry wolf is about right as I see it.

                      “That’s pretty fucked up.”

                      Good job I’m not famous as there would probably be an article or video of it somewhere.

                    • weka …
                      26 June 2014 at 12:04 pm

                      I might agree with you if KDC had a history of using his personal life with his kids and wife to further his public life. I haven’t seen him doing that, but then I don’t follow popular media that much. Has he done articles in Women’s Day about his kids, his marriage, that kind of thing?

                      I’m reminded of the recent interview with Cunliffe and his wife in their home. Does this mean their private lives are now fair game for any and all media and they have no right to a private/personal life? Or is that different somehow?

                    • The Al1en …
                      26 June 2014 at 12:07 pm

                      He has used his four foreign nannies immigration status, does that count?

                    • weka …
                      26 June 2014 at 1:13 pm

                      Link?

                    • The Al1en …
                      26 June 2014 at 1:26 pm

                      I can’t find a link to the original breaking story, but luckily for the four nannies, they now have an extension on their visas, so that worked out well.

                      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11279059

                      Oh, but I did find a story with a tweet I mentioned somewhere above

                      “Somewhere, right now, someone is getting something you wanted, but couldn’t get, and they didn’t try, or even want it ;-)”

                      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11256967

                    • weka …
                      26 June 2014 at 1:59 pm

                      I don’t see how the immigration issue with the nannies supports your point. Lots of people would use the Herald to help in a situation like that if they could. It doesn’t make them a media whore and it doesn’t void their right to privacy.

                      What do you think KDC meant by that tweet?

                  • The Al1en …
                    26 June 2014 at 2:07 pm

                    “What do you think KDC meant by that tweet?”

                    My interpretation is irrelevant.
                    Do you think that tweet was kdc keeping his private life private?

                    • weka …
                      26 June 2014 at 2:12 pm

                      I have no idea what the tweet is about, so yeah, I don’t think it’s part of media whoredom or voiding his right to privacy. It’s a pretty abstract tweet.

              • phillip ure …
                26 June 2014 at 9:52 am

                no..you just post any anti internet/mana/dotcom crap u can find..

                ..that’s what ‘it is’..

                • The Al1en …
                  26 June 2014 at 9:57 am

                  Philip, I’m trying to have a convo with a grown up, shhh and settle petal.

                  • phillip ure …
                    26 June 2014 at 10:21 am

                    so..crappy-links..and low-level/unfunny/unclever/cliched ad-homs..

                    .. are about all u have to offer..eh..?

                    ..where’s bad when i need him..?

                    ..i’m getting rigor mortis due to boredom here..

                    • The Al1en …
                      26 June 2014 at 10:27 am

                      Come on bruv, after a week of solidly bashing labour over the donation scandal that isn’t and months of green party distorting, with swears, mis quotes and all sorts, you go all ill-thought out/simplistic, ad-homs, crappy links and unfunny put downs with me 🙄

                      Not only are you being childish, predictable and self serving, but disingenuous with it.
                      I say do better if you can. Just looking at today’s mini stalkathon effort, I’m not holding out too much hope.

                    • phillip ure …
                      26 June 2014 at 10:50 am

                      um..!..i asked the questions raised by the ‘donation-scandal’..

                      ..and i will repeat that i am amazed that labour just didn’t call a press-conference on day one..

                      ..and have mike williams say to the assembled-media..

                      ‘look..i was in charge of donations/fundraising during that time..and if that had happened..i wd know about it..

                      ..i wd hardly forget a hundred grand donation..

                      ..it is a total-nonsense..

                      ..i suggest you go back to yr sources’..

                      ..now..had they done that..the ‘scandal’ on labour wd have been over..in one day..

                      ..and the media wd have started instantly baying for ‘the evidence’ from liu/national/key..

                      ..as it was..they/labour spent days doing impersonations of rabbits caught in headlights..

                      ..that is why i was constantly calling for /asking..where t.f. is mike williams..?

                      ..he can answer all these questions..

                      ..and that is why i called their handling of the whole issue cack-handed..

                      ..and as for ‘twisting’ green party stuff..

                      ..got an example..?

                      ..and i ‘bash labour’..eh..?

                      ..@ whoar i have linked to the rnz parker/joyce encounter..

                      ..my headline..?

                      ..’david parker monsters stephen joyce’..

                      ..some serious ‘labour-bashing’ going on there..eh..?..)

                      ..you wouldn’t know honest-criticism if it came up and bit u on the arse

                    • bad12 …
                      26 June 2014 at 10:51 am

                      Watching and having little sniggers Phillip, letting you two soften each other up…

                    • The Al1en …
                      26 June 2014 at 10:57 am

                      “as for ‘twisting’ green party stuff….got an example”

                      Yep, your bit on Norman about mining and legalising dope on the tele for a start.
                      Blatant bs if ever I’ve seen it.

                      I get it, you don’t like critique or being called out for posting crud.
                      Using that famous kiwi expression – Harden the fu*k up
                      And yes, I get it, you’re a mip schill and acting a little defender of the faith about it.
                      Don’t take it to heart so much, keep it honest and I’m sure we’ll all get on.

                      “letting you two soften each other up”

                      We’re ready. I’m soft in the belly and Philip’s a bit soft in the head 😉 😆

                    • bad12 …
                      26 June 2014 at 11:13 am

                      Ah the temptation Alien, nearly enough to be irresistible, i will however, much to my personal disappointment, have to decline, my insertion here might be construed as an attempt to inflame your and Phillips polite conversation…

                    • phillip ure …
                      26 June 2014 at 11:22 am

                      “.. your bit on Norman about mining and legalising dope on the tele for a start.
                      Blatant bs if ever I’ve seen it..”

                      gotta link..?

                      and are you saying norman has changed his stand..?

                      ..and has cannabis law-reform on his top-ten to-do list..?

                      (..and not drying-out/mouldering in a drawer somewhere..)

                      ..and is now anti-mining..?..anti-drilling in hectors’-dolphin reserve..?

                      ..did he retract his ‘we have no bottom-lines’ statements..?

                      ..have they found some..?

                      ..this is breaking/good-news..!

                      ..do tell..!

                      ..my headline will be..

                      ..’greens find their lost testicles!..pictures @ ten!’…

                    • The Al1en …
                      26 June 2014 at 11:28 am

                      “Ah the temptation Alien, nearly enough to be irresistible, i will however, much to my personal disappointment, have to decline, my insertion here might be construed as an attempt to inflame your and Phillips polite conversation…”

                      Saintly12, it does have a ring to it 😆

                    • The Al1en …
                      26 June 2014 at 11:33 am

                      “gotta link..? and are you saying norman has changed his stand..?”

                      Nope, you go find it, but you completely misrepresented what he said and from memory a few commentators here chided you for it.
                      I don’t have much respect for your opinion based on your impartiality and willingness, in my opinion, to extract wrong from right so to speak.

                      Flame on, flame off, I’m not that bothered, but post sh!te and I exercise my right to inform you. It’s completely up to you how you respond. 🙂

                    • phillip ure …
                      26 June 2014 at 11:37 am

                      not so much ‘flaming’..as idling..

                      ..and you have no link/evidence..?

                      ..you don’t work for the herald do you..?

                    • The Al1en …
                      26 June 2014 at 11:42 am

                      “..and you have no link/evidence..?”

                      The evidence was you making false claims about green party policy based on dodgy interpretation (malicious or erroneous I couldn’t say) skills. The archives are there, some of the readers here know it went down as I’ve stated. If you want to go fetch it to disprove me, go ahead.

                      “..you don’t work for the herald do you..?”

                      I don’t work for anyone.

                    • phillip ure …
                      26 June 2014 at 11:52 am

                      woo..!..right over yr head..!..eh..?

                    • The Al1en …
                      26 June 2014 at 12:02 pm

                      No I got it, but it just wasn’t worthy of landing permission.

    • Wonderpup 10.3
      26 June 2014 at 10:10 am

      Funny, I read that yesterday and thought that the pool party must have been quite considerate if the children slept soundly through it, and that inviting strangers around to have a good time playing in the mansion was kinda generous.

      In reflection I suppose the thought of all night pool parties doesn’t sound like the last days of Sodom to me, unlike the article’s intended audience.

  11. Russell Belding 11
    26 June 2014 at 9:11 am

    One feature of David Cunliffe’s campaign is his secret trust for funds and his continuing refusal to say who had contributed to it. Another feature is David’s sincere looks, he really does look sincere. The perception of transparency is important to many. Recall David’s many comments like “I am not prepared to discuss …”

    On the rightish side of our parties, the current leader has a different personality. The Herald reports this morning “…Roughan says that nothing seems to be hidden with Mr Key. In private and in public, he is open-faced and talkative. He answers as many questions as reporters wish to throw at him, rather than closing them off and walking away as if he has something to hide.”

    Maybe the next leftish leader can learn from this after the votes are counted and the seats sat in.

    • Colonial Viper 11.1
      26 June 2014 at 9:21 am

      One feature of David Cunliffe’s campaign is his secret trust for funds and his continuing refusal to say who had contributed to it.

      Cunliffe can come clean when Key comes clean you dick. And as you know, Key will take those million dollar donation secrets to the grave.

      • freedom 11.1.1
        26 June 2014 at 9:33 am

        What is it with these guys bringing up stories that have not only been thoroughly explained they have been decomposing for months

        Is NZ facing a Zombiepoliticalypse ?

      • Russell Belding 11.1.2
        26 June 2014 at 9:41 am

        A simple observation does not need such an insult.

        • freedom 11.1.2.1
          26 June 2014 at 10:00 am

          Russell, do you have any interest in how an auction where a golf game with the PM was a prize was reported as being a donation to charity but was in fact a donation to the National Party? Somewhat more serious one would think, and also illegal. Unlike any of what you have raised as worthy of concern.

        • phillip ure 11.1.2.2
          26 June 2014 at 10:18 am

          ..rusty..!..(do ya mind if i call ya ‘rusty’..?..)

          ..not so much a ‘simple observation’..

          ..as bald-faced rightwing-lies..eh..?

          ..and thus..more than deserving of all the ‘insults’ it gets…

          • Russell Belding 11.1.2.2.1
            26 June 2014 at 10:31 am

            Hi Phillip.
            The comment above about David C is a simple observation. He appears sincere. He does not give me confidence when he hides his donors. He is secretive when he hides things. Is this a right wing lie? No, it is an observation. The observation reprinted in the NZHerald, by Roughan that J Key is “open-faced and talkative” need not provoke insults. Helen Clark had a similar quality. Leftish leaders need (my observation and opinion) to be more open and transparent. They also need better staff who do not lose donation records.

            • phillip ure 11.1.2.2.1.1
              26 June 2014 at 10:38 am

              “..J Key is “open-faced and talkative”

              ..isn’t that just shorthand for ‘key is a practised-liar’..?

            • Colonial Viper 11.1.2.2.1.2
              26 June 2014 at 12:13 pm

              Geeezus mate the lefty bloodhounds around here can sniff out a Concern Txxx from half a mile away. Who do you think you are kidding?

            • Te Reo Putake 11.1.2.2.1.3
              26 June 2014 at 12:21 pm

              “They also need better staff who do not lose donation records.”

              They can’t lose what doesn’t exist. I think Keirkegaard said that.

            • Anne 11.1.2.2.1.4
              26 June 2014 at 2:51 pm

              Get your facts right Russell B. David Cunliffe was happy to reveal the identities of the donors to his leadership campaign funds – $10,000 in total. He revealed the identities of those who gave him permission to do so, but two of the donors refused so he returned their donations to them. They may have had good reason to want to remain anonymous (for instance they may work in a sensitive area of government or a legal firm or some such) so Cunliffe did the right thing returning their money to them.

              Start directing the blame to the proven dishonest and secretive money launderers – John
              Key and the National Party. Did you ever read “the Hollow Men”? I doubt it. Too much for you to get your head around.

            • Draco T Bastard 11.1.2.2.1.5
              26 June 2014 at 4:40 pm

              J Key is “open-faced and talkative”

              The Secret of John Key’s Success

              Being in possession of credible acting skills is important to placate people who inevitably will be offended – the capacity to be profusely but insincerely apologetic, or to minimise the offence or say it is all in the mind of the offended. Nothing to see, nothing to hide, what’s the problem. I’m totally relaxed about this. This translates as I’m good, there is nothing to worry about, let’s move on.

              TLDR: John Key is a psychopath.

        • framu 11.1.2.3
          26 June 2014 at 10:21 am

          true – but brainlessly repeating something which has already been explained time and time again for months does

    • bad12 11.2
      26 June 2014 at 9:33 am

      Russell, excuse the language, but what a load of utter shit, sure the Slippery little Shyster we have as Prime Minister babbles happily like the village idiot as the tame toothless Whore Voices of International Capital, also known as the media, in this country ask their patsy questions,

      Try putting Slippery on the spot over any of the outright Lies He has fed us over the past five years and he spins like tyres in an oil spill, no wonder the bloke has had a couple of public i have to lie down moments,

      The velocity of motion as He spins would be enough to give anyone a bad case of vertigo…

      • ianmac 11.2.1
        26 June 2014 at 9:36 am

        Try putting Mr Key on the spot at all! He is very picky who he talks to and avoidance is his main skill.

      • Russell Belding 11.2.2
        26 June 2014 at 10:13 am

        Hello bad12 .. do all the contributors here who insult use aliases like you? We have “bad12″,”freedom”, “colonial viper” … like anonymous bullies hiding.

        Anyhow your rhetoric is very flowery. If you make it clear what you are talking about maybe a conversation is coming?

        • framu 11.2.2.1
          26 June 2014 at 10:22 am

          oh for fucks sake – now youve gone back in time to the anon name argument

          can i buy shares in your time machine?

          and people are pretty damn clear – read

        • bad12 11.2.2.2
          26 June 2014 at 10:31 am

          If you fail to understand the basics of such a self explanatory comment as i make above Wussell i fear that such a conversation as you allude to would never reach any great heights and my opinion is that subterranean would be the expected level of such a conversation,

          Best you be off to the sewer where your views will be validated without pricking your sensillum or overtaxing the inner workings of your mind…

        • freedom 11.2.2.3
          26 June 2014 at 10:39 am

          I just roflmao at the idea that I am a bully …

          I wonder Russell, do you also believe protesters are all terrorists ?

        • Hayden 11.2.2.4
          26 June 2014 at 12:19 pm
          1. The word you’re looking for is “pseudonymous”.
          2. How the hell does anyone know you’re who you say you are? Proof of identity or you’re just as pseudonymous as anyone else.
        • greywarbler 11.2.2.5
          26 June 2014 at 12:28 pm

          Flowers grow in soil Russell, I don’t know about shit, the nitrogen level might be too high.

          But we here are trying to provide some growing medium for ideas, above the sterile bedrock left after the asset-stripping and denuding of the protective barriers of tariffs and social support by what appears to be your sort of person, the RW brigade. That guerilla group entered the economy with Roger Douglas et al and have been slicing and dicing ever since.

          How about a conversation about that, if you can cope with the robust comments on this blog. That gets directed at people who don’t want to grow anything for the whole country, just what enriches themselves.

  12. freedom 12
    26 June 2014 at 9:17 am

    There has been an explosion of pulp quizzes on facebook lately where you answer a few questions and they tell you what emotion drives you, what cake you like, what action star you are etc…

    today this one popped up

    http://www.playbuzz.com/nzpollster10/which-nz-political-party-should-you-vote-for

    go on, have some fun….

    • weka 12.1
      26 June 2014 at 9:43 am

      Apparently I should be voting for the IMP. Oops.

    • phillip ure 12.2
      26 June 2014 at 9:47 am

      that is a very good quizz/exercise..

      ..i came out with an internet/mana result..(no surprises there..)

      ..but what i am betting..is that many ostensibly labour/green supporters..will..

      ..if they answer the questions honestly..

      ..they will also get that mana/internet recommendation..

      ..(update:..see weka above..q.e.d..)

      • Te Reo Putake 12.2.1
        26 June 2014 at 10:08 am

        Um, I got Labour, Phil. But I thought it would have been IMP the way the possible answers were framed. That is, I didn’t the options covered all the alternatives, so I thought I’d be corralled into IMP as a result. Surprisingly pleased that the machine turned out to know me so well.

        • phillip ure 12.2.1.1
          26 June 2014 at 10:11 am

          u shd apply to hq 4 a gold star..a true-believer-badge..

          (a comparison of our different responses cd be an interesting exercise..)

          • Tiger Mountain 12.2.1.1.1
            26 June 2014 at 12:44 pm

            “gold star” lol you got me with that one phillip;

            few lolz for Labour after Parkers dry balls alternative economic policy though, Kelvin Davis at Fonterra Kauri with David Cunliffe today. The local media in Kaitaia (Northland Age) have been slightly more restrained than Lab HQ on Kelvin going gung ho in Te Tai Tokerau.
            https://www.facebook.com/david.cunliffe.labour
            http://apnregionalnz.newspaperdirect.com/epaper/viewer.aspx

          • Te Reo Putake 12.2.1.1.2
            26 June 2014 at 1:23 pm

            Actually Phil, the party does recognise the longest serving members with a gold badge. They’re a matter of considerable pride to the recipients, recognising as they do, a lifetime commitment to social justice.

            Maybe one day your dealer will give you a gold bud for decades of diligent doping. I’d love to attend the ceremony!

            • phillip ure 12.2.1.1.2.1
              26 June 2014 at 2:14 pm

              so there was a soupcon of truth in that jest..?

              ..(and have you thought of suggesting true-believer badges..?

              ..they cd be a way-station on the way to ‘gold’ status..)

              ..and yes..i’m looking forward to my ‘gold-joint’..

              I’ll send you an invite to the ceremony..

              ..but you should know it will get a bit smokey..

      • weka 12.2.2
        26 June 2014 at 11:56 am

        The GP result seems to largely hinge on whether you like being in nature or not 🙄 I did the poll twice, and the only answer I changed was instead of wanting to help people I like being in nature. That tipped me from IMP to GP.

        Am curious now as to what I would have to say to vote Labour ;-p

        • weka 12.2.2.1
          26 June 2014 at 12:00 pm

          wtf does ‘combining referenda’ mean?

          • Te Reo Putake 12.2.2.1.1
            26 June 2014 at 1:18 pm

            Yeah, I think the spell check must have blighted that one. I assume it’s binding referenda.

        • phillip ure 12.2.2.2
          26 June 2014 at 3:37 pm

          “..the only answer I changed was instead of wanting to help people I like being in nature. ..”

          ..but isn’t that usually the complaint from the left..about the greens..?

          ..and as you are a green..and here..

          ..cd u tell us if the citizens’ income policy of the greens..

          ..is on their top ten list of things to do..?

          ..or over on the nice-to-have list..?

          • weka 12.2.2.2.1
            26 June 2014 at 4:17 pm

            I haven’t seen the top ten list, don’t think it’s out yet. Not that I read everything the GP says or does.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 12.3
      26 June 2014 at 9:57 am

      That $1M is starting to show up. I still wonder what they’ll do with the other two.

      • phillip ure 12.3.1
        26 June 2014 at 10:03 am

        if it is from them..(which i doubt..but i can’t say with certainty..)

        ..it wd be an efficient use of some of those funds..

        ..as it helps to clarify in peoples’ heads just where they should place their vote..

        ..to get the policies/priorities they really care about..

        ..and not just be trapped into voting following past-patterns/choices..

        ..there is a new game/choice in town..

        ..and in many ways..it is the party that labour/greens purport to be..

        ..but actually..on closer inspection..aren’t..

  13. greywarbler 13
    26 June 2014 at 9:30 am

    This quiz is run by NZPollster so if you visit there you will be on their radar and others so may get a call for opinions but that could be okay. Interesting that the hotel duty manager thinks that having third parties with different views to the mainstream ie Social Credit, is a waste of taxpayers money. Sounds like someone who doesn’t understand how a real democracy works, probably a RW. See the fascism in the system!

    And when you have put your bit go on and find out when certain celebrities lost their virginity. Fascinating. Tell us all about it when you have – must keep up with the goss.

    • freedom 13.1
      26 June 2014 at 9:49 am

      is the above a reply to my post at 12 greywarbler?

      No direct input identity information is gathered during the quiz, so I guess you are referring to the data sold by Facebook? To my knowledge, your phone data is not sold as part of the data-mining operations.

      Regarding your final passage, Facebook is a tool and as such it is up to the user if it is made use of or dumped into the third drawer of the kitchen cabinets. It is what you choose it to be and goss about the sexlife of celebrities or here is my dinner, is not really a pro-forma post for me, much to the chagrin of some.

      I am, needless to say one of those annoying prats on facebook who try to utilize it as a tool for communicating with other humans all across the planet about issues we have the power to change if we worked together more. As futile and naive as that view is, it is what I use that tool for.

      I post about journalism, politics, money, social poisons, wars, education, hunger etc etc, including numerous posts linking to right here at The Standard. But I do make sure i mix it up with posts of a lighter nature, i specialise in altered penguin images, and yes have even posted crazy cat videos once or twice, but celebs…. not my thing 🙂

      • greywarbler 13.1.1
        26 June 2014 at 12:19 pm

        I was musing and interested freedom on looking at the quiz. And to find the ubiquitous sexy or gossip come on. they are on every site almost.. I find also when I go to sites there are usually ads on how to get rid of ugly stomach fat. Which I should read.

        I was just thinking of how things are and that you are up with the play. I hope that data isn’t passed on but if I was in the business I would be tempted to utilise it somehow.

        I have to bring myself to utilise facebook more for political purposes. So maybe if I have queries and can’t work out what to do from instructions on site, I could ask you. Would that be okay or would you be too busy?

        • freedom 13.1.1.1
          26 June 2014 at 1:22 pm

          Apologies if my tone was a not exactly pleasant greywarbler. I am a bit of a cornered canine today. KK’s bs took a lot out of me yesterday, also having a big arse vodafone battle today, but my little probs are no excuse. Will probably take a break for a few days to rebalance. 🙂

          I am no expert on fb but muddle through like most. I certainly do not have the intricate knowledge like some I know, but sharing info is one of the benefits of this interwebby thing.

          I can certainly help steer you to some of the more ‘credible’ pages for news/political stuff but personal perception of course is a big part of that, as it is in any circumstance. Places from other parts of the web that you already trust are likely to have a presence on fb, so that is always a good jumping off point. Plus entering random words into the search bar of fb can be a worthwhile gamble, often with surprisingly spectacular results.

          My first recommendation would be the page
          https://www.facebook.com/wakeupnz?ref=ts&fref=ts
          It is a good clearing house for all sorts of pages both local and international.

          The groups I personally am involved with (not the one above) are closed groups, so during your wanderings you may discover a couple and maybe I will see a request one day in our inbox, but of course I will not know it is you 🙂 and despite the views of some that comment here, I have no problem with people’s real identities not being their Standard identities.

          A few days away I reckon, later folks.

  14. Chooky 14
    26 June 2014 at 9:54 am

    ‘Ummmm, why do the Police have 7 foreign hacker servers in NZ when Australia only has 4?’

    By Martyn Bradbury / June 25, 2014

    John Key has some answering to do. Why are these corporate hackers in NZ? Why do they have 7 servers here and who the bloody hell are the Police and law enforcement agencies actually spying on to justify that large a number of servers?

    • bad12 14.1
      26 June 2014 at 10:21 am

      Probably all of us Chooky, in the last 7 days my EMail account has indicated all of these IP’s have been hooked into my account, none of which are my personal IP number,

      203.211.73.32
      202.89.141.36
      203.211.72.99
      202.89.141.225
      203.211.74.234
      202.89.143.225
      202.89.141.124…

      i have 10 rolls of tinfoil on next weeks shopping list,but, there’s probably a number of logical explanations for this occurrences,(lolz one of which might be ”they reading your mail boy”)…

      • Chooky 14.1.1
        26 June 2014 at 10:59 am

        John Edgar Hoover Key is on to you bad12…you have been a bad boy

      • McFlock 14.1.2
        26 June 2014 at 3:59 pm

        all of those IPs are hosted by one NZ internet provider – I suspect yours.

        google something like “trace IP address host”
        The basics are at wikihow

        • bad12 14.1.2.1
          26 June 2014 at 5:25 pm

          Nearly Mac, one of them when i run them through the basic ”finder” came back to no-one, perhaps the trace you have used is better than the one i did,

          At some stage i will get around to Emailing the provider and asking WTF, i am assuming they will have a logical explanation,(although if there are two people on the end of an email depending WHO they were you would think that the other party besides myself would also be plugged in through my provider),

          The biggest snigger the other day was ”there are two others using this Email”, i only caught that one out of the corner of my eye as i flicked through…

          • McFlock 14.1.2.1.1
            26 June 2014 at 5:45 pm

            not sure what you’re talking about there.

            Silly question, apologies if too silly – you do realise that an email is routed through multiple servers between sender and receiver?

            • bad12 14.1.2.1.1.1
              26 June 2014 at 6:27 pm

              That’s confusing then aint it Mac, your not sure what i am talking about but fail to say what it is that you aint sure of which leaves me not sure what You’re talking about if you get the drift of the conversation,

              Yeah i have a basic understanding of the system, what i am alluding to is if i were to hook into say for instance your email i would probably be smart enough to do so via a provider from off-shore maybe routing that provider through another(if possible),

              Of course IF an arm of the State wanted to hook into your or my email they probably wouldn’t bother going to such extremes simply hooking in via my or your providers,

              Having done the basic trace on most of the IP numbers i list above, one came back as not being issued to or by anyone, the rest come back to my provider, some in Auckland some in Wellington,

              Of course, IF an arm of the State were hooked into my email it would be slightly clever to do so through a different IP number each day which i assume would be likely to stop any efforts i made to trace that particular number,

              i was planning on letting the current situation continue for a while, and, try another trace on all the numbers again in a week(there are probably programs that allow me more than just a cursory look),

              Lolz and yes i have thought that maybe my provider for some reason is providing me a new number each day(sometimes two)…

              • McFlock …
                26 June 2014 at 7:44 pm

                Yeah the terminology is what throws me.

                Basically, the email is routed through the shortest network path at that instant. It would change each time. And the IP number used by each server would change. Heck, unless you pay for a static IP your IP address might change each time you turn your computer on and connect to the internet.

                What was the IP address that came back with no host?

                • bad12 …
                  26 June 2014 at 8:18 pm

                  No, no Mac you have the wrong end of the stick, the notification i am getting isn’t one that is to do with incoming email,

                  The notifications say, this email account is being used in one other location at and then the IP number,

                  The one that came back to no-one, nowhere appears to be 203.211.73.32 which on my notes has a no-one entered,

                  • McFlock …
                    26 June 2014 at 8:31 pm

                    same host as the others, woosh.

                    Might be someone logging on with your credentials (try changing your pwd regularly). Or do you log out when finished with email, or just wait for it to time-out, or use multiple devices? It might be counting your unclosed session as another user.

                    An intercept shouldn’t give that flag, because it would either just clone the packets to and from your router or simply access your provider’s email database. Mind you, I was perplexed that the techspooks were routing KDC’s direct gaming link to Southern Cross via wellington. Stupid.

  15. dimebag russell 15
    26 June 2014 at 10:07 am

    dr2grwrblr.
    dame anne is ok and her accent is flawless.
    not cobbled together or affected.

  16. ianmac 16
    26 June 2014 at 10:26 am

    Another post at the Herald from Jared Savage re Mr Liu. Still no better!
    He said the figure included the wine auctions, a $2000 donation to the Hawkes Bay Rowing Club, the Yangtze River trip and anonymous donations to MPs.
    That appears to be the summary of this version.
    The Rowing Club irrelevant!
    The $50-60K boat trip. Mr Barker was there on holiday and as a guest to a staff do. Irrelevant!
    The wine auctions. No actual amount given. Probably happened but so what?

    The end result is still a big fat misreporting/misrepresenting nonsense and although David gets a small point of refutation and Mr Barker is now quoted it still smacks of unbalanced nonsense. Shame on Jared Savage!
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11281832

    • Chooky 16.1
      26 June 2014 at 11:09 am

      it is a total and shameless beat up…the Herald and Sunday Herald must be called to professional account and boycotted

      i thought the images of Mr Liu on tv news did not make him look reputable ….he looked decidedly shadey and corrupt….somehow these images and his lying must be seared together with National in the public mind

      …..i doubt whether many old school New Zealand National Party supporters would be impressed with National ‘s leadership under Key ( it used to be a respectable if conservative Party which supported New Zealand values of New Zealand for New Zealanders…rather like Winnies NZF party)…my farmer grandparents were National supporters …but were they alive today i doubt whether they would be supporting it under John Key

      …under Key the National Party is getting increasingly caught up with the take over image of overseas and new immigrant corruption and croyism

  17. bad12 17
    26 June 2014 at 10:44 am

    Are we being ”gamed” by Labour over raising the age of superannuation, at yesterdays press conference David Parker made a direct reference to ”tax cuts” being on offer from a second term Labour Government,

    David Cunliffe at Parker’s side quickly interjected with a ”Might”, But, the genie so to speak has been released from the bottle,

    IF second term tax cuts are to be affordable then it is pretty obvious to me that superannuation is affordable without such tax cuts,

    Seems simple enough…

    • Clemgeopin 17.1
      26 June 2014 at 11:33 am

      Regarding Super, I am wondering why not Labour make a policy with these ideas:

      [1] Any one can opt for super at the age of 63 for any reason. [Could even be at 60?]
      [2] Super payment/pension will be means tested until age 67,
      [3] Universal non mean tested superannuation will kick in at age 67.

      What are the good and bad aspects of this proposal?
      * To me, for one thing, it will help generate more employment at the lower ages.
      * Will help the elderly.

      • phillip ure 17.1.1
        26 June 2014 at 11:40 am

        that’s some good-thinking there clem…

      • bad12 17.1.2
        26 June 2014 at 3:31 pm

        Clem, there is an ‘end-game’ being incrementally rolled out vis a vis Superannuation, David Parker spelled it out yesterday with His ”second term tax cuts” at the press conference outlining the alternative budget,

        What followed the previous raising of the entitlement age, tax cuts in the form of Working for Families,

        While Parker didn’t yesterday make any link between the two, tax cuts and raising the age of entitlement the latter is obviously Labour policy and the alluded to tax cuts i would suggest are phase two intentions from Parker,

        Given that there are a number of countries currently in the process of raising that age of entitlement to 70 i can well imagine in this little game of incremental change that after 67 the goal will be superannuation at 70 here in New Zealand,(followed of course by tax cuts),

        The continuation of this incremental change i would suggest will in 50 years see very few people actually receive a pension of any sort having instead to rely upon their Kiwisaver accounts as the main source of retirement income…

        • Clemgeopin 17.1.2.1
          26 June 2014 at 6:43 pm

          Several points:
          [1] “What followed the previous raising of the entitlement age, tax cuts in the form of Working for families”—Can you enlighten me what the previous entitlement age was and when was it changed and how many years earlier were people given notice of the intending change? If you don’t know this off hand, don’t worry. I will try to find it on line later.
          [2] You did not address my specific idea’s merits if any.
          [3] Do you think the super age should never be changed irrespective of better or worse economic, social, employment conditions, life expectancy, health and other factors?
          [4] Isn’t what you are suspecting regarding ‘motives’ based on speculation, concern and/or fear?

    • Will@Welly 17.2
      26 June 2014 at 11:38 am

      Why can’t Labour stick to policy without offering bribes?
      The economy is in a mess. Where are the jobs – real jobs?
      Take out the Christchurch rebuild and how much growth is there in the economy?
      Dairying has seen us revert back to a primary based sector industry that is almost dependent on one market, the same as we were when we produced sheepmeat and exported them to the United Kingdom 1960’s. Now it is dairying, and the country is China.
      Is Labour going to re-dress the social welfare changes made by the National Government?
      And what about the Labour law changes? 9 years in power between 1999 and 2008 and nothing virtually changed.
      Those who have suffered the most don’t want bribes, they want positive action.

  18. phillip ure 18
    26 June 2014 at 11:04 am

    wow..!..gobsmacking-fail by radio nz news..

    ..what fucken hacks..!

    ..they have reported the parker/joyce thing..

    ..by just faithfully repeating all of joyces’ lies/bullshit..(soundbite and all..

    ..with tones of joyces words being a ‘given’..)

    ..as i said..what fucken hacks..!

  19. ianmac 19
    26 June 2014 at 11:24 am

    Wow! A fair and reasonable column from Vernon Small!
    ” At this point on Labour leader David Cunliffe’s side we have an 11-year-old pro forma letter written “to whom it may concern” requesting a time frame for a decision in Liu’s immigration case.

    The second strand is a claim, with no supporting documentation (cheques? banks statements? witnesses?) of big donations to the party by Liu. It says there are no records of them and they have not been independently authenticated…..

    ….Yet, what is missing is anything that proves Cunliffe has done anything wrong. …”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/10200453/Liu-saga-hits-harder-when-Labours-down

    • veutoviper 19.1
      26 June 2014 at 12:17 pm

      Saw that, and now Stuff has this article up by Tracey Watkins about Roughan’s book on Key.

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10201895/Key-book-sheds-new-light-on-prime-minister

      Watkins focuses on whether or not Key will stick around after the ‘revelations’ that he considered going about 18 months ago.

      Of particular interest is the results of the recent Fairfax poll which included polling on whether people would vote for National if Key was not leader which are shown in the article. The results show a high percentage would not….

  20. Mr Interest 20
    26 June 2014 at 11:34 am

    Media, Monitory Democracy and The Standard

    Its great to see The Standard (and other good sites) countering the mainstream media and its associated government spin machines and there overabundance of fake news.

    However, are we not just small sparks of illumination in the infinite vacuum of corporate/government driven media? There is a lot of fake news out there.

    How best to harness these sparks, bring together a consistent ‘flow or Flux’ of content that evolves and grows stronger like the sun? That gains coverage to new audiences, illuminates them, gives people counter arguments (or if you like a counter education).

    The problem we face maybe on off illumination. Like the moon, if it didn’t spin at all, then eventually it would show its far side (dark side) to the Earth while moving around our planet in orbit. How do you get to this audience?

    What sites like The Standard are performing can be described by termed by the author John Keanes who wrote the book “The Life and Death of Democary” as MONITORY DEMOCRACY. This Monitory democracy might provide the illumination?

    Keane provides a succinct summary statement about MONITORY DEMOCRACY in the introductory chapter of his book (2009; chapter titled “Bad Moons, Little Dreams”):

    “[T]he years since 1945 have seen the invention of about a hundred different types of power-monitoring devices that never before existed within the world of democracy. These watchdog and guide-dog and barking-dog inventions are changing both the political geography and the political dynamics of many democracies, which no longer bear much resemblance to textbook models of representative democracy, which supposed that citizens’ needs are best championed through elected parliamentary representatives chosen by political parties.

    From the perspective of this book, the emerging historical form of ‘monitory’ democracy is a ‘post-Westminster’ form of democracy in which power-monitoring and power-controlling devices have begun to extend sideways and downwards through the whole political order. They penetrate the corridors of government and occupy the nooks and crannies of civil society, and in so doing they greatly complicate, and sometimes wrong-foot, the lives of politicians, parties, legislatures and governments.

    These extra-parliamentary power-monitoring institutions include — to mention at random just a few — public integrity commissions, judicial activism, local courts, workplace tribunals, consensus conferences, parliaments for minorities, public interest litigation, citizens’ juries, citizens’ assemblies, independent public inquiries, think-tanks, experts’ reports, participatory budgeting, vigils, ‘blogging’ and other novel forms of media scrutiny.” (p. 14; online here and here)

    http://twotheories.blogspot.in/2012/03/praise-for-monitory-democracy-concept.html
    Another example of this Media Monitory Democracy is given by

    Media Lens
    http://medialens.org/index.php/about-us/what-is-our-objective.html
    “Quote: Our aim is to raise awareness of the systemic failure of the corporate media to report the world honestly and accurately. We encourage readers to challenge the journalists, editors and media managers who set news agendas that traditionally reflect elite interests. Any improved performance resulting from this public pressure, while important, is always likely to be marginal. So we also hope to encourage the creation of non-corporate media – good examples are Democracy Now!, The Real News Network and ZNet – that offer genuine alternatives to the corporate mainstream.”

    The question then, is how do you bring together these sparks of light, to create a sun that is cohesive, will illuminate people (I am not saying persuade) as to what is really going on rather than just hiding the dark side of the moon.

    The Standard and other sites are doing this. I Just wonder though, are we not preaching to the converted. How do you cross the void to greater audiences. What mechanisims in terms of Monitory Decmocracy can be used?

    Another Quote from Media Lens:

    “When corporations own the news and advertisers ‘sponsor’ the shows, journalists know they are above all answerable to the company managers and allied interests who pay their salaries. The mere public, especially voices of dissent, can be treated with indifference, even contempt. Journalists have power without responsibility, and they know it.”

    http://www.medialens.org/index.php/alerts/alert-archive/2014/766-the-great-white-nope.html

    If this is the status quo in NZ, we are in trouble, particularly when it seeps into TVNZ and RNZ

    “Indeed the safest road to Hell is the gradual one–the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts,…Your affectionate uncle, Screwtape.”

    “It is funny how mortals always picture us as putting things into their minds: in reality our best work is done by keeping things out.”

    C.S. Lewis,The Screwtape Letters

  21. Ergo Robertina 21
    26 June 2014 at 11:45 am

    Chris Trotter points out Cunliffe’s explicit undertaking to raise taxes:

    ‘On the afternoon he announced his candidacy for Labour’s leadership, David Cunliffe’s response to the inevitable question: ‘Do you believe in higher taxes?’ had been an unequivocal “You betcha!”’

    I doubt anyone interpreted that to mean the top rate of personal tax would be lower than that proposed in the 2011 manifesto.
    http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/2014/06/cramped-and-conventional-labours.html

    • Colonial Viper 21.1
      26 June 2014 at 12:08 pm

      “Indeed, the risible addition of 3 cents to the top tax-rate almost certainly occasioned a massive sigh of relief on the part of New Zealand’s top 2 percent of income earners.”

      And the $150K higher tax threshold comes in just ABOVE what an MP earns…lol? 🙁

    • Clemgeopin 21.2
      26 June 2014 at 1:30 pm

      I just wrote this comment on that site:

      Chris, You are missing one very important point in your analysis.

      One can make any policy including one with a much higher tax rate and even stiffer CGT provision. But there is a small huge problem.And that is, any policy has to be at least a little palatable to ensure sufficient votes to form a government. That is why there is the need for caution and pragmatism.

      I think Parker and Cunliffe have taken the most risk they can possibly take at this stage in our political history.

      • Bearded Git 21.2.1
        26 June 2014 at 2:30 pm

        Agreed Clem. A CGT and a rise in the top tax rate and an attack on the trust rort adds up to a significant but reasonable level of reform while raising enough revenue.

        I think Chris Trotter (being old school Labour) completely misses the MMP dimension. People can vote for Greens or IMP if they want something more radical. Labour can then adjust its financial and social policies while explaining this is MMP in action and this is what the people voted for.

        After all if ACT polling 0.5% and with one MP in can get Charter Schools…..

      • Draco T Bastard 21.2.2
        26 June 2014 at 3:12 pm

        I think Parker and Cunliffe have taken the most risk they can possibly take at this stage in our political history.

        Nope. They could have put the $150k bracket up to 50% and not lost any votes. In fact, they probably would have gained a few percentage points.

        • blue leopard 21.2.2.1
          26 June 2014 at 3:21 pm

          Why don’t Greens or Mana do that? (Mana may have – haven’t checked whether they have something like that prior to writing this comment)
          Did you read Bearded Git’s comment prior to replying to it – I mean really take in its meaning?

          • Draco T Bastard 21.2.2.1.1
            26 June 2014 at 4:58 pm

            I didn’t reply to Bearded Git, I replied to Clemgeopin.

            • blue leopard 21.2.2.1.1.1
              26 June 2014 at 5:26 pm

              My reply is at 28 (I mustn’t have pressed the reply button)

              • Colonial Viper …
                26 June 2014 at 10:43 pm

                But there is a small huge problem.And that is, any policy has to be at least a little palatable to ensure sufficient votes to form a government. That is why there is the need for caution and pragmatism.

                Yeah so…how is the palatable vote gathering going for Labour so far?

                How is the centrist cautious middle of the road tack going for Labour so far?

                Are there “sufficient votes” for Labour coming in that show that a Labour led govt will be able to command anything more than the slimmest majority of two or three seats, with perhaps over a third of the seats coming from other parties?

                Has anyone here noticed that when Cunliffe was talking hard left, redder than red, not just National with anaesthetic, that Labour was polling higher than ever?

                And the more Labour seeks the media approved centre, the more shit they do?

  22. Draco T Bastard 22
    26 June 2014 at 12:00 pm

    Economic theory: making Europe’s crisis worse
    Steve Keen on how present economic theory is driving Europe to the wall.

  23. blue leopard 23
    26 June 2014 at 12:25 pm

    Oo sounds like there is a good broadcasting policy coming up sometime from Labour. (Info garnered from the fastest ever reply I have received from emailing MPs.)

  24. greywarbler 24
    26 June 2014 at 12:46 pm

    Radionz news
    Treasury boss sorry for merger bungle
    Wellington.
    The head of the Treasury, Gabriel Makhlouf, is apologising to his staff for bungling a merger designed to streamline the back-office functions of three departments.

    Is this the new approach. Apologise, be transparent, show you are a functioning thinking human and not just a goggle-eyed hypnotised humanoid. Is this using the new approach where we hear victims talk about their feelings about assault or damage. There are apologies after the crime, which are supposed to help deal with the result of a bad action. Defence counsel says my client offers his heartfelt apolgies, sorrow ….blah blah. Response is often oh we forgive him and that is a better result than holding corrosive hate against a pathetic sad dangerous human being.

    But those adjectives can apply to mandarins boffins politicians in positions of power who are trusted to be working for the country’s good. But actually following up some mendacious ecomic neo lib theory scam perpetrated to advance an agenda to utilise human and planet resources for the few. So don’t then apologise, pause, think again and get out of the way of people who want to have systems and practices with positive and sustainable outcomes for us all.

    • Tiger Mountain 24.1
      26 June 2014 at 1:03 pm

      Gabe caught bungling but who gave the orders? Oh thats right Treasury operates under the Reserve Bank Act and has offices brim full of neo liberals proscribing hard medicine for the rest of us while cruising on salaries paid by the same long suffering citizens.

  25. Hayden 25
    26 June 2014 at 3:00 pm

    Fallen trees support reptilian life forms too.

    http://static2.stuff.co.nz/1403749450/356/10203356.jpg

    • tinfoilhat 25.1
      26 June 2014 at 3:26 pm

      Who’s that on the far right of the picture ?

      • McFlock 25.1.1
        26 June 2014 at 3:31 pm

        can you be more specific? They’re all on the far right of the picture 🙂

        • tinfoilhat 25.1.1.1
          26 June 2014 at 3:44 pm

          The one that looks like a young version of Benny Hill, it’s not Peter dune is it ?

          • McFlock 25.1.1.1.1
            26 June 2014 at 4:44 pm

            Indeed it is. He, Flavell, Smith and the media were all choppered in on the DoC dime. No mention was made about how the local National Party candidate also coincidentally made it to the same secluded area of windswept West Coast bush.

            It’s really quite amazing how small NZ can be some times – Maureen Pugh, a National party candidate on West coast, goes hiking in the forest for some solitary oneness with the beauty of nature, and just happens to photo-bomb a taxpayer-funded advertisement election photo-op departmental announcement.

            If I were cynical, I’d say that the more serious issue isn’t helicoptering the MPs on a photo-op, it’s the conflict of interest in apparently giving a governing-party candidate inside information about said taxpayer-funded photo-op. Or maybe Damien O’Conner didn’t RSVP the invite?

            • MrSmith 25.1.1.1.1.1
              26 June 2014 at 5:28 pm

              I hear a couple of Labour MP”S will be voting with the Government on some legislation being put through under urgency, Re west coast wind falls in forests. And Labour wonder why they are going down the toilet in the polls, so now labour allow their MP”s to vote according to their conscience on legislation that the opposition want to ram through under urgency FFC!

              • McFlock …
                26 June 2014 at 5:47 pm

                electorate mps doing what electorate mps are supposed to do, AFAIK – like it or not, a lot of coasters support the logging.

                • MrSmith …
                  27 June 2014 at 1:17 pm

                  So you’ve read Hager&Burtons Secrets&Lies on Timberlands blatant manipulation of the Westcoasters then?

                  • McFlock …
                    27 June 2014 at 2:29 pm

                    So electorate representatives should only represent the opinions of their electorate when it meets your approval?

                    That’s not really how democracy works. Two abuses of process do not make a right (though they might well be done by the same tory).

                    • MrSmith …
                      27 June 2014 at 5:12 pm

                      “So electorate representatives should only represent the opinions of their electorate when it meets your approval?”

                      I’m not sure how you jumped that conclusion from my comment.

                      If only we had a system where our elected representatives could represent their electorate without having to toe the party line, but we don’t!

                      One of Nationals strengths is they portray a united front; Labour just lost a round in that fight, it also makes David C look weak, perception is now everything, especially now before an election!

                      O’Connor like Jones should go work for a party he believes in, he’s a bigot and has been easily manipulated by corporate interests in the past.

                      Please read the book McFlock, I’m sure you will be as surprised as I was at how easier Timberlands turned the people of the Coast into cheer leaders for a company that was of hardly any benefit to themselves or to their long term future.

                    • McFlock …
                      27 June 2014 at 5:38 pm

                      I reached that conclusion because regardless of how or why the populace might have a policy preference, electorate representatives should still represent the view of the populace.

                      If only we had a system where our elected representatives could represent their electorate without having to toe the party line, but we don’t!

                      But that’s exactly what just happened. Two electorate MPs followed the wishes of the people in the area concerned. And you say that it’s a “loss” because it’s something other than a “united front”.

                      In this case I think that the actions of the MPs are reasonable, even if I don’t agree with the decision itself. Corporate PR and lobbying is another issue, Timberlands is but one of many examples.

            • marty mars 25.1.1.1.1.2
              26 June 2014 at 5:48 pm

              Agree plus what the hell are dunne and flavell doing there – plus what the hell are they looking at? Perhaps, “Oh look a dead tree” “That tree’s not dead” “Yes it is” “No it’s just resting” “resting, resting! look numbnuts that tree is deceased, gone from this mortal coil, dead!” “It does look like deadwood to me” “Why did you look at me when you said that?” “I didn’t” “You did” and so on into infinity…

    • Draco T Bastard 25.2
      26 June 2014 at 6:00 pm

      Including two from Labour.

      Two Labour MPs have crossed the floor to support the windblown timber bill being debated under Urgency in Parliament

      Damien O’Connor and Rino Tirikatene backed the Government’s bill to allow the retrieval of trees felled in Cyclone Ita from some parts of the West Coast conservation estate, while their colleagues opposed it.

    • weka 25.3
      26 June 2014 at 6:37 pm

      Good argument from F and B

      Fallen trees have a vital role in ensuring our forest ecosystems continue to exist. These trees are not “going to waste”. In a forest you can’t have live trees without dead trees. The rotting trees release energy and nutrients into the recovering forest that will not come from anywhere else.

      Dead trees support a host of life, such as kaka, that feed on the range of grubs and other insects that consume the wood. Birds like kaka and kakariki, and the native bat, pekapeka, also use the holes in these dead trees to nest and roost.

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/10196894/Senseless-law-change-will-hurt-us (h/t NRT)

      What we have to acknowledge is that the people who support mining conservation estate actually don’t think these things matter. That should be made explicit, so they can’t carry on with their lies about ‘waste’ trees.

      Then there is this (my emphasis),

      The legislation will make it even easier to log conservation forests than it is to mine conservation land. Both of those destructive activities will now be subject to fewer restrictions than low-impact tourism operations.

      Amazingly, the legislation will also exempt any authorised logger if they break a regional or district plan, dam or divert rivers or streams, trash the beds of rivers and lakes, or cause the discharge of contaminants (including oil and diesel) into the environment.

      It’s hard to see why loggers taking windfall off conservation land should be allowed to damage the environment in a way that no- one else can on private land. It is also intriguing that the Government is prepared to subsidise the potential destruction of the existing sustainable native timber industry, which uses trees grown on private land.

  26. Draco T Bastard 26
    26 June 2014 at 3:09 pm

    Remember, America: Inheritance leads to princes, serfs, and not much else

    Allowing wealth to concentrate over generations is nothing more than a road to serfdom, a path back to the low-growth, low-innovation, unfree world of the Middle Ages.

    As I’ve been saying for ages, the present economic paradigm and policies are taking us back to feudalism. Time to bring back taxes on the wealthy, including hefty inheritance taxes, so as to stop the stagnation that the rich produce.

  27. tinfoilhat 27
    26 June 2014 at 3:25 pm

    Another terrible waste of life after a police chase.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11282378

    • Draco T Bastard 27.1
      26 June 2014 at 5:00 pm

      That doesn’t sound like a police chase but pure bloody stupidity on the part of the rider.

  28. blue leopard 28
    26 June 2014 at 5:05 pm

    Sorry bout that, I thought your comment was aligned with mine but it mustn’t be.

    I direct your attention, then, to Bearded Git’s comment on the dynamics of MMP 🙂

    Why don’t you suggest Greens or Mana to put such a policy in place?

    • Draco T Bastard 28.1
      26 June 2014 at 6:12 pm

      https://www.greens.org.nz/policysummary/economic-policy-summary-thinking-beyond-tomorrow

      Mana don’t seem to have a tax policy but their Founding Principles would seem to support it
      http://mana.net.nz/founding-principles/

      The problem isn’t the parties left of Labour but Labour itself as they try to remain a right-wing party with left-wing colours.

      • blue leopard 28.1.1
        26 June 2014 at 6:26 pm

        Why have Mana and Greens not got the majority of support then? Serious question – not solely rhetorical (although there is a little sting it its tail…) I was pretty astonished that Mana got as little as it did. Why press Labour to change – why not promote Greens and Mana?

        • Draco T Bastard 28.1.1.1
          26 June 2014 at 6:52 pm

          Why have Mana and Greens not got the majority of support then?

          Couldn’t say. According to rumours around 80% of the populace actually prefer Green policies. Perhaps people still have the delusional belief that the Greens are a radical party. Of course, that delusional belief is spread and supported by the MSM and National on a daily basis.

          The way I figure it, we’re not talking policies here but belief and tribalism.

          • blue leopard 28.1.1.1.1
            26 June 2014 at 6:59 pm

            Yes, I think you are getting closer to being more accurate here.

            …so how will it help if Labour take a more left stance, then?

            I really am serious- I didn’t think this way a few months ago – but it seems something odd is going on when Greens and Mana don’t receive more support – if being further left is what is required. (Which is the way I definitely used to think but now I tend to support Labour staying a bit more watered down)

            A large number of us perhaps haven’t adjusted to the power/capacity of MMP?

            • Draco T Bastard 28.1.1.1.1.1
              26 June 2014 at 7:22 pm

              …so how will it help if Labour take a more left stance, then?

              IMO, Some people who are presently not voting will vote Labour, i.e, they’ll vote Labour but not the so-called radical parties but only if Labour has the policies that they want. Policies that Mana and The Greens have but that people aren’t looking for because they don’t even look at Mana and The Greens.

              • blue leopard …
                26 June 2014 at 8:14 pm

                Sounds plausible. People need to shift their way of thinking then don’t they? That is – if they want a decent government that represents their wishes. People need to be ‘hungry’ enough to shift their way of thinking. Stubbornly refusing to vote for any other party due to prejudice of one type or another makes it seem that people are not yet at that point?

                I think it is a crying shame when there are these other options yet people are not making use of them.

                Which is easier? Getting Labour to change? Or getting people to choose from the available options?

                Your guess is as good as mine ( 🙂 )

        • Ergo Robertina 28.1.1.2
          26 June 2014 at 7:08 pm

          Labour is promoting financially irresponsible policy in pursuing a low tax regime. It’s a lame argument to say ‘well go ask the Greens or Mana to do something about it’.
          Anyway the Greens are not left wing on economics, never have been; IMP is just getting started.
          To Bearded Git’s point re MMP: Labour has spent two terms being the principled players, and now you think they might use MMP and a flank party to pass tax policy not in its manifesto, like Key did with charter schools?
          Can you imagine to what extent the inevitable backlash to any tax rise would then be magnified?
          At least Labour shouldn’t have the gall to call this 36c rate ‘progressive’, as Parker did yesterday.

          • blue leopard 28.1.1.2.1
            26 June 2014 at 7:11 pm

            Bit pointless discussing with someone who is not prepared to understand the point I am making. I am really not into arguing over this point – more brainstorming.

  29. fisiani 29
    26 June 2014 at 5:30 pm

    2 Labour MP’s have crossed the floor. The caucus is revolting.

  30. Clean_power 30
    26 June 2014 at 5:47 pm

    The TV3 News poll tonight could be bad news for Labour. Let’s wait for the figures.

  31. fisiani 31
    26 June 2014 at 6:02 pm

    National 49.7
    Labour 27.3
    Taliban 12.7
    NZF 3.6
    ACT 0.4
    Cons 2.8
    Krim Dot Con 1.8

    Labour is stuck with Cunliffe 86 days to go.

    Grim Grim Grim

    National 65 seats

    Who will be the first loon to call it a rogue poll.

    Limbo Labour. How low can they go?

    • Colonial Viper 31.1
      26 June 2014 at 6:12 pm

      Labour has to move dramatically to the Left. NOW. Find $1.5B and announce a full employment policy for young people. Standing timidly in the middle of the road means you keep getting hit from both sides.

      • fisiani 31.1.1
        26 June 2014 at 6:37 pm

        They have already moved dramatically Left. That’s why they are tanking. I see 2 deserters today in Parliament

        • Draco T Bastard 31.1.1.1
          26 June 2014 at 6:47 pm

          Labour haven’t moved at all – they’re still a right-wing party as they have been since the 1980s.

        • Weepu's beard 31.1.1.2
          26 June 2014 at 7:07 pm

          I thought David Cunliffe’s reaction was brave and gracious. He wished them well, didn’t chuck his toys, didn’t slur his words, and understood that they did what they felt was right for their constituents.

          That is a leader in action.

          • Ant 31.1.1.2.1
            26 June 2014 at 8:41 pm

            Perception wise it’s not that good, MPs crossing the floor isn’t going to look good when you consider Labour’s enemies in the media.

            Really not what they need right now when the parliamentary arm is under constant scrutiny and is struggling to appear unified.

            • Weepu's beard 31.1.1.2.1.1
              26 June 2014 at 9:00 pm

              Yes MPs crossing the floor is rare but this legislation is so ill conceived, rushed, and bought by local West Coast government on the back of the collapse of mining, that there is bound to be dissent.

              The Maori MPs crossed the floor the other day on paid parental leave and even then the National whips tried to pull a fast one. Why was that “not a good look” in the media?

              As far as I can tell Cunliffe has said there should be more consultation on the environmental and economic impacts before rushing legislation, which is entirely sensible. This rushing of legislation seems to be the default setting for this govt. when they want to push something unpopular through. Do it quick before the dumb proletariat has a chance to to be informed seems to be their PR company’s motto.

      • Anne 31.1.2
        26 June 2014 at 7:16 pm

        Standing timidly in the middle of the road means you keep getting hit from both sides.

        Christ… when will they learn!!!

      • Clemgeopin 31.1.3
        26 June 2014 at 8:08 pm

        I don’t understand why you say that based on the polls so far. If moving further ‘left’ was the answer then Internet Mana and Greens would have been doing far better than their ratings now.

        In my opinion, Labour has already moved sufficiently left taking a massive risk in electoral support.

        For those wanting more radical left wing positions, they already have the Greens and Internet Mana to vote for.

        I think Labour is in the correct position. I am an optimist for Labour and I think this poll has not reflected the public sentiments well. As further policies get announced and more media exposure/debates happen during the election campaign, Labour vote will rise and in the last two weeks before Sept20, National and Labour will be neck and neck about 40% each, plus/minus 3 %, 37% to 43 bracket. Winston and IMP will easily cross 5% with Greens around 12% plus. In my opinion, A Labour led coalition is more likely than that by National.

        People voting National are not captivated by National’s policies. They are mostly enamoured by Key. People are gullible and are fooled the smile, affability and sophisticated clever cunning of Key. His close smart friends in USA did not give him the telling nick name, ‘Smiling Assassin’ for nothing.

        Let Labour begin rolling out more and more policies, keeping the best for last, just prior to the election weeks. Labour is sure to rise. I am confidant.

      • Chooky 31.1.4
        26 June 2014 at 8:45 pm

        Labour needs to ditch the Motorways…and put the money into youth policies and lower super /retirement age

    • Daveosaurus 31.2
      26 June 2014 at 6:15 pm

      How the fuck did Colin Craig manage to get 12.7% ? Did he buy the polling company or something?

    • weka 31.3
      26 June 2014 at 6:18 pm

      How many undecideds fisiani?

      • fisiani 31.3.1
        26 June 2014 at 6:43 pm

        Who cares? Undecideds usually don’t vote or vote roughly in proportion to the polls. It’s too late to ditch The Cunliffe. Or is it? All it takes is 18 votes.

        • Chooky 31.3.1.1
          26 June 2014 at 6:54 pm

          the Undecideds are really the “Fuck you Pollsters! ” brigade

          ….they are waiting around the corner with a big surprise for Election Day!…and a big surprise for you …the fishy one

          • BM 31.3.1.1.1
            26 June 2014 at 7:04 pm

            Nah, the undecideds are the non voters.
            That missing million/pot of gold that the left have bet the house on.

            News flash they won’t be here this year, just like the previous election, and that election before that and the previous…………ad infinitum, you get the picture.

            • Puddleglum 31.3.1.1.1.1
              26 June 2014 at 7:45 pm

              Hi BM,

              Not the case.

              1981 – 91.4% turnout
              1984 – 93.7% turnout
              1987 – 89.1% turnout
              1990 – 85.2% turnout
              1993 – 85.2% turnout
              1996 – 88.28% turnout
              1999 – 84% turnout
              2002 – 76.98% turnout
              2005 – 80.92% turnout
              2008 – 79.46% turnout
              2011 – 74.21% turnout

              Sources: Stats New Zealand – for a nice graph
              electionresults.govt.nz

              Edit: Interesting that voting declined at the end of the 80s but bumped up in 1996, when the MMP referendum was held.

              • BM …
                26 June 2014 at 8:02 pm

                I know what you’re getting at, without knowing what the undecided % of what the poll result is, those numbers could be labour’s “savior” or could just re enforce what I’m saying.

                I still think labour would be better to pitch to the people who have an interest in the game than those you have to bribe to participate.

                • Puddleglum …
                  26 June 2014 at 8:20 pm

                  Ok, although “the people who have an interest in the game” raises the further question of why a significant proportion of people have no interest in the game and why that number appears to have increased.

                  The percentage turnout figures were on registered voters so the really odd thing is that there is an increasingly large proportion of people not voting who actually showed enough “interest in the game” to register on the electoral roll.

                  The proportion of people who never bothered to vote is another matter –
                  in 2011 3070847 people registered out of 4029618 who were eligible to register;
                  in 2008 the figures were 2990759 and 4029618;
                  2005 2847396 and 3738343;
                  2002 2670030 and 3738343
                  1999 2,509,365 and 3,619,442
                  1996 2,418,517 and 3,367,308

                  That’s an interestingly pattern too,

                  • karol …
                    26 June 2014 at 8:26 pm

                    So, three’s a sizeable proportion of people not being convinced by Team key, in spite of the massive about of spin, and diversionary, celebrity culture style propaganda.

                    Has that spin, divert and propaganda machine turned a lot of people off, or is it blocking the left getting a strong message out, or do left wing parties have as little appeal to many of the non-voters as right wing parties?

                    • Tom Jackson …
                      26 June 2014 at 9:12 pm

                      Democracy has less appeal than it used to. Not that people are demanding some alternative. They’ve just become more realistic about what it can accomplish, which is not very much, and the evidence is on their side.

                  • BM …
                    26 June 2014 at 8:31 pm

                    Yep, most if not all people find politics pretty distasteful and nasty due to the way the “game” is played , which is a shame because it’s a very important part of our democracy.

                    Facts are to the disinterested man on the street,politics is just a huge big pile of negative bull shit and people just can’t be fucked with that and tune out.

                    Until the politicians themselves pick up the standard less and less people will show enthusiasm and interest in voting.

                  • Puddleglum …
                    26 June 2014 at 8:51 pm

                    Oops! my post above should have read

                    “The proportion of people who never bothered to register is another matter …“

              • Puddleglum …
                26 June 2014 at 8:05 pm

                I meant the bump happened with the first MMP election in 1996 – sorry.

                Voter turnout has been low in the MMP era overall, though.

                • BM …
                  26 June 2014 at 8:14 pm

                  Hmm,actually I’m not quite sure what you’re getting at?

                  Are you saying people need something exciting and new to make the effort to get out and vote.?

                  Gladiators?

                  • Puddleglum …
                    26 June 2014 at 8:45 pm

                    Well, I wouldn’t call voting in an electoral referendum ‘exciting’ in the gladiatorial sense.

                    I suppose I was implying that when people feel that their votes might make a difference – especially people who are being disadvantaged by the present arrangements – they have more incentive to turn out to vote.

                    My hypothesis would be that Roger Douglas effectively ‘killed’ two birds with one stone: in the 1980s he transformed the economy so that it would reward those who already have and punish those who did not have; he also managed – perhaps just as a happy unintended consequence – to destroy the left as a potent alternative for those who need some hope in their lives that things might get better.

                    Low voter turnout since the 1980s simply reflects the fact that for a significant proportion of the population that hope has almost died.

                    • BM …
                      26 June 2014 at 9:10 pm

                      Low voter turnout since the 1980s simply reflects the fact that for a significant proportion of the population that hope has almost died.

                      I disagree it’s probably more along the lines that voting doesn’t really make much of a difference or it doesn’t really matter too much if you don’t get around to voting.

                      You vote National, you get pretty much the same as what you would if you voted Labour and visa versa.

                      For me, that’s actually quite a good thing the last thing we want is the country whipsawing between one extreme and the other.

                      I’d say the stability of our country combined with the general nastiness of politics would be the main factors in why the non voting block is steadily increasing.

                    • Tom Jackson …
                      26 June 2014 at 9:21 pm

                      Not really. Some of it has to do with the fact that the type of society we had before 1984 was more conducive to bringing out the left vote. Unions were large and many people worked in large industries where the workers were politically active.

                      People my dad’s age voted because everyone they worked with did and it was what you did.

                      Fast forward to now and most people don’t have that kind of social organisation any more. A fragmented workforce has seen the end to that. That’s what Douglas accomplished. Politics is nowhere near as simple as individual people voting for their own interests. Their patterns of voting and sense of their own interests heavily depend on their social circumstances. Organisation is also very important. An organised group is much more politically powerful than the same number of individuals, and the Douglas-Richardson reforms went a long way to weakening and destroying the organisations through which working people amplified their political power. That’s the real point of neoliberalism. It isn’t about economics, since the performance of such economies has been poor by historical standards.

                      That’s why it’s a long, hard road back for the left. They’re going to need to organ for years and years before working people will have an effective voice in NZ politics again.

                    • Puddleglum …
                      26 June 2014 at 10:37 pm

                      Completely agree with you Tom Jackson.

                      It’s definitely not just about individual motivation, it’s about social structures that engender solidarity and organisation.

                      We have a very transient and fractionated society – very difficult for any collective organisation to occur. People ‘move on’ to other places, other jobs, other friends, etc. far too regularly for any solid and stable social organisation to be built in the way that it used to be able to be built.

                      The individual motivation to vote is undermined by that lack of collective support for the behaviour of voting.

                      I suppose that removal of the collective processes is experienced as a lack of motivation at the individual level, which is reinforced by the sense that nothing much changes no matter how you vote (although I think that’s not true).

                      BM, I disagree over your sanguine approach to the ‘which way you vote doesn’t matter’ issue. I think you’re thinking of middle class people for whom nothing much changes (in a reasonably positive sense) with the different arrangements of government.

                      I was thinking about those who experience our society in quite a different way from the middle class. People whose lives are stressful, punishing, hard, precarious and unforgiving in the most tragic of ways – and on a daily basis. I live amongst people in these situations where I live. I talk to them on my street when I walk the dog.

                      Your worldview, I assure you, is like some kind of fairy tale from another planet for these people.

                      I don’t think many of them vote – and not because everything is hunky-dory no matter which way they vote.

                      Quite the opposite.

    • karol 31.4
      26 June 2014 at 6:18 pm

      Gower beat it up. But it just looks like a couple of points change, within margin of error, and if anything Greens & IMP have gained as much as Labour has lost.

      Nats down about 0.60. Labour down abt 2.5. Greens up a couple of points. IMP up abt one point.

      • karol 31.4.1
        26 June 2014 at 6:27 pm

        NZ First down.

        Poll report here. Headline says Nats fly high – but in fact they have remained about the same as in the last poll – no zooming higher.

        • Blackcap 31.4.1.1
          26 June 2014 at 6:31 pm

          So I take it you are celebrating then Karol?

          • karol 31.4.1.1.1
            26 June 2014 at 6:34 pm

            No. Just bemused by the amount of weight people give polls, and the way the MSM beat-up their own polls.

            • ianmac 31.4.1.1.1.1
              26 June 2014 at 6:45 pm

              Crikey with Paddy’s beat up I was expecting really really bad news. But it is bad not disastrous.
              The number was about 750 I think. It suggests that there are many undecided if they contacted about a thousand people. Best idea is that if the numbers of undecided is say 12%, it might be from those who will wait to be persuaded. Sure they could fall either way but it ain’t over yet. With a bit of luck, with Paddy’s help the Nats get complacent.

              So not a catastrophe yet.

              • phillip ure …
                26 June 2014 at 6:57 pm

                gower was whirling that egg-beater like a dervish..

                ..and it was a total hatchet-job on cunnliffe..

                ..gower even had the cheek to play that fucken liu-card again..talking like it is still alive..

                ..and then @ 6.30 there was a total beat-up in the other direction..

                ..a long hymn of praise to key..

                ..i was expecting roughan to announce that he had seen key walk on water @ lake taupo..

                ..and maybe some loaves and fishes action..

                ..that gummint-money joyce/key gave to mediaworks..

                ..just keeps on and on paying out..

                ..campbell at times must feel like a stranger in a strange land..

                ..surrounded as he is by ‘establishment-lickspittles’..

                ..in fact..’lickspittle’ is dickensian enought to fit gower like a glove….

                ..(or ‘squeeg’..as i call him..)

                • phillip ure …
                  26 June 2014 at 7:58 pm

                  i liked gowers/squeegs’ dramatic-orgasm @ the end..

                  ..when in sepulchral-tones he told us it was too late for cunnliffe/labour to do anything about this catastrophic state of affairs…

                  ..’and it’s only 80 days to the election!’

                  ..(someone should take him aside and point out that is over ‘a week in politics’ x 10..

                  ..plenty of time for lots to happen.)

                  ..he really is an in-the-moment-idjit…

                  ..the official campaign hasn’t even started..policies haven’t been announced..debates haven’t been held..etc..etc..

                  ..and this ‘journalist’ is calling it already..

                  ..(it seems squeegs’ relationship with slippery really solidified on that washington/obama trip..

                  ..i have heard rumours that key was carrying him around in his pocket..

                  ..and wd occaisonally bring him out..

                  ..to dance on cue..)

              • Puddleglum …
                26 June 2014 at 7:52 pm

                Hi ianmac,

                They said (from karol’s link) that “The poll surveyed 750 eligible New Zealander voters between June 19 and 25, amid the controversy over businessman Donghua Liu’s alleged donations to Labour.”

                So the sample size was 750. I couldn’t find any information about how many people expressed a party vote preference out of that 750 (hopefully they didn’t just ring around until they found 750 people who gave them an answer to that question).

                There were no other details about how they asked that question or other aspects of method. It would be good to know where the report is – if it is publicly available.

                • ianmac …
                  26 June 2014 at 8:15 pm

                  And the other days a post from Politiky? was it, pointed out that National vote in polls has remained constant. When the undecided numbers are up, the Left poll numbers are down. As the undecided numbers drop the National numbers stay the same and the Labour vote goes up.
                  So the number of undecided is very important.
                  PS Not politiky. Anyone?

                • ianmac …
                  26 June 2014 at 10:44 pm

                  Sorry Puddlegum. I am old enough to forget names.
                  Do you agree with the need to know the number of undecided?

    • blue leopard 31.5
      26 June 2014 at 6:18 pm

      Kind of Herald-style bias to your reporting there, Fisiani. You have quite the sense of humour – am amused by your creative naming.

      Now, can you please tell me the punchline of your joke the other day? The one about you not considering yourself right wing? Serious question – I am really interested in how you manage to rationalize that statement.

    • Chooky 31.6
      26 June 2014 at 6:48 pm

      Rogue Poll!!!!…full of bullshit as per usual…we are all waiting for the election you ding bat …then we will give you a thrashing!

      Fishy one ..you should go on stage as a comedian…you make me laugh so hard

      • fisiani 31.6.1
        26 June 2014 at 6:51 pm

        The Cunliffe when elected (via a secret trust and union backing but NOT his caucus) pledged to get Labour to 40% plus. He is a failure.

    • McFlock 31.7
      26 June 2014 at 7:53 pm

      3news 3 months to go: nats 49.7%.
      3news August 2011: nats 54%. Outcome: 47.3%

      Likely 2014 outcome based on that: 43%.
      Nats are fucked. No friends.

  32. Ant 32
    26 June 2014 at 6:06 pm

    Not too bad considering, most people expected that unsubstantiated smear to do about 2% damage.

  33. karol 33
    26 June 2014 at 8:05 pm

    That new kind of Turkish spambot, and Lynn’s explanation, did set me thinking.

    It seem to be making random selections from sentences already posted by regular standardistas, and posting them under it’s pseudonym/s.

    How much further would it need to be perfected before we couldn’t tell it from one of the regular right wing commenters – the ones who seem to repeat the same selection of right wing lines over and over….?

  34. Bearded Git 34
    26 June 2014 at 8:07 pm

    Gowerat surpassed himself tonight. A quick look at the tv3 poll numbers (assuming Colon doesn’t get a seat) shows Lab/Green/IMP going up, to around 42% and National going down to under 50%.

    The MSM collectively have thrown the kitchen sink at Labour over the last couple of weeks, yet on these numbers the election remains winnable.

    I loved the way Gowerat said something like “the Greens lashed out at both parties” and then there was an interview with Russell Norman making a mild mannered comment about how the Liu affair reflected negatively on both Nat and Lab.

    Gower is now, more than ever, ensconced in his luxury apartment on Planet Key.

    Meanwhile IMP are on 1.8% and they haven’t got started yet*. Game on.

    *the Hairdo is on Nul Points. Zero. Nada. Zilch.

  35. Kat 35
    26 June 2014 at 8:08 pm

    Audrey Young today in aunty herald proclaims that National can govern alone based on some TV poll!! So what do New Zealanders think about MMP going out the window?

    Or……is it all a left wing jack up designed to fool the easily fooled right into not bothering to vote.

    Even Chris Trotter is playing devils advocate.

    Ever seen a 78 spun backwards? wait for Mondays political burp Nine to Noon.

    [lprent: Nothing to do with the post – stick to the topic, and if you want to make your own topic, then do so in OpenMike. Read the policy. Moved to OpenMike. This is your warning. ]

    • blue leopard 35.1
      26 June 2014 at 8:26 pm

      Hi Kat,

      If you are the Kat that has posted on Trotter’s latest article, I very much appreciated your comments today.

      It is great when there are some problems with the polls that people don’t just collapse into a hypercritical heap onto Labour.

      I assume that the polls are maybe reflecting that Labour are not booming in popularity at present, yet think there is a huge amount of jack up going on (as you put it).

      Hope we can turn this around. I wonder how we get the message out to vote regardless of what these jack-arse polls are saying…?

      • Kat 35.1.1
        26 June 2014 at 9:38 pm

        Well Blue Leopard, sometimes its hard to get the message out when the delivery people continue to get the delivery address wrong. Chin up though, the polls do not reflect the true level of support for Labour.

        • blue leopard 35.1.1.1
          26 June 2014 at 9:41 pm

          +1 (Glad you found the comment -being moved and all…!)

          • lprent 35.1.1.1.1
            26 June 2014 at 10:29 pm

            Its always a bit of an education process. But I seem to have had a rash of diversion comments today, and particularly in that post for some reason. Lots of new people perhaps.

            I’d really prefer to educate by notes rather than educate by ban.

  36. fisiani 36
    26 June 2014 at 8:15 pm

    The fastest growing party in New Zealand is the Conservatives. 2.8% with virtually no advertising or exposure. They are getting support from NZF and Labour voters. They have not eaten into National support. If the next poll shows them at 3% and the next at 3.4% and the next at 3.8% then Winston will not be back and they will be thrown East Coast Bays. If they are polling over 5% then they will not need to be thrown East Coast Bays.

  37. dimebag russell 37
    26 June 2014 at 8:20 pm

    help.
    new zealand is under attack from the deadly sindrum virus.
    it makes intelligent people burst into fits of uncontrolled laughter.
    she has metamorphosed into an insecure pretentious little know it all with funny words.
    watchout!

    [lprent: I get that you have a thing about Ryan. There really is no need to repeat it insistently unless you can tie it into things that are new, or you can write something intelligent about it. Not connecting it to the post is just stupid. Moving to OpenMike. This is your warning. ]

    • dimebag russell 37.1
      26 June 2014 at 9:03 pm

      too right.
      and not just her.
      because she is female is incidental.
      she and espiner use up 6 hours of prime time every day in what amounts to a show and tell peep show of dreary banal garbage from uneducated people.
      New Zealand deserves better than this.
      when the the adornments start becoming more important than the thing itself then the whole society is in trouble.
      you can print flowers and put scent on toilet paper but in the end it is still toilet paper.
      trying to ornament it does not take away its primary function.
      Radio New Zealand is staffed with manques, infantilised and basically just a mouthpiece for rightwing idiots.

  38. fisiani 38
    26 June 2014 at 8:32 pm

    This is getting reminiscent of 2002 when the National vote collapsed. Poll after poll for Labour starts with a 2 and not the promised 4. What has gone wrong? The Cunliffe was touted as the Messiah by some here. Is this a cunning plan to forment complacency in National voters. Winning 1000 hearts and minds and vote each and every day of campaigning would generate just 84,000 votes or another 2%. I used to think it would be close. Not so sure now.

    [lprent: Look I get that you are another one of John Key’s arselickers. But don’t write diversion comments that have nothing to do with the post. Moved to OpenMike. This is your warning. ]

  39. chris73 39
    26 June 2014 at 8:37 pm

    So let me get this straight: two labour MPs cross the floor, Cunliffe whos been leader of the opposition for 9 months is on 9.6% and dropping as preferred pm and labour are now well under 30% and dropping and we’re less than 3 months out from an election and people arn’t worried?

    Reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8IBnfkcrsM

    • lprent 39.1
      26 June 2014 at 8:38 pm

      It appears that you are still thinking like it was a first past the post election. Tell me, can you only hold two parties in your head at once?

      Or look at the history of how polls change during a election campaign?

      I guess that tory fools like Roughan are endemic.

      • chris73 39.1.1
        26 June 2014 at 8:48 pm

        So you think everythings hunky dory then, no need to worry and everythings going to plan. Is Labours plan to lull the right into a false sense of security? If it is its going really well.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 39.1.1.1
          26 June 2014 at 9:00 pm

          Is that really what you take from Lprent’s comment? You notice the part where he points out that elections change polls? Not exactly a claim that all is well, is it?

          Reading is a skill.

          • chris73 39.1.1.1.1
            26 June 2014 at 9:07 pm

            Well being that he led of with: “It appears that you are still thinking like it was a first past the post election. Tell me, can you only hold two parties in your head at once?” I took from his comment that he wasn’t really interested in replying to my comment but rather attempt some weak spin

            “Or look at the history of how polls change during a election campaign?”

            I mean really, do you really think that from this position Labour and the left can win the election?

            Naah don’t bother answering you lot won’t accept reality until Cunliffe concedes on election night and even then some nutters will probably be going on about special votes…

            • One Anonymous Bloke 39.1.1.1.1.1
              26 June 2014 at 9:16 pm

              One thing you got right: I’ll believe the election result.

              • chris73 …
                26 June 2014 at 9:21 pm

                You might but it won’t take long for the more extreme on here to say its a rort, the voting was rigged, the special votes wern’t counted etc etc

        • lprent 39.1.1.2
          26 June 2014 at 9:05 pm

          So you think everythings hunky dory then, no need to worry and everythings going to plan.

          Of course not. However this will be the 12th election that I have been actively involved in some manner or another. I’m acutely aware of the dynamics of campaigns especially in a MMP environment.

          Of those, in 7 of them I have been actively involved throughout the campaign. This will be the first election since 1990 that I am not. I’m largely commenting from the sidelines (as I mostly was in 2011 but for different reasons).

          I simply don’t appear to have quite your level of panic reaction because I have seen campaigns move a lot during the intense campaigning period. The 2011, for instance, was extremely short after the RWC.

          Yet according to the polls National somehow managed to drop nearly 9% in less than 60 days and the conservative parties scraped in with one vote. The Maori party gave them the ability to not be wagged by the two stub parties they were in alliance with. But that was a narrow narrow victory.

          None of those 4 parties are doing anywhere near as well now as they did even 60 days from the election. The election this time is much “hotter”, which is likely to lead to a larger turnout. If I was National, I’d be extremely worried.

          • chris73 39.1.1.2.1
            26 June 2014 at 9:10 pm

            “If I was National, I’d be extremely worried.”

            • Holy moly that has to be comment of the week
            • One Anonymous Bloke 39.1.1.2.1.1
              26 June 2014 at 9:14 pm

              National are so certain of victory they just threw one of their owner/donors under a bus.

            • blue leopard 39.1.1.2.1.2
              26 June 2014 at 9:15 pm

              I would have thought comment of the week was reserved for Liu/Nat/Media and their ‘I donated $150 000 to Labour” doozy… or was that last week’s one?

            • mickysavage 39.1.1.2.1.3
              26 June 2014 at 9:23 pm

              Yep that is the comment of the week and if you and a whole bunch of right wing fanbois on election night think WTF then you will understand lprent’s comment.

              • chris73 …
                26 June 2014 at 9:26 pm

                I’ll say this for you Comical Ali you’re earning your pay alright

                • mickysavage …
                  26 June 2014 at 9:29 pm

                  It would help if you read and comprehended lprent’s comment and had a sense of history and an understanding of the limitations of polling.

                  • chris73 …
                    26 June 2014 at 9:42 pm

                    Keep that spin up Comical I’m sure some on here even believe it

                    • McFlock …
                      26 June 2014 at 9:46 pm

                      the ones who can read, for example

                    • lprent …
                      26 June 2014 at 9:52 pm

                      And from where comes this fund of electoral experience?

                      Basically about you and your skills on election campaigns the words “pathetic amateur wanker” come to mind….

                  • mickysavage …
                    26 June 2014 at 9:47 pm

                    So chris73 you are utterly convinced that you know what the result will be and will not even think that something different may happen.

                    I spent the last election night watching the results come in and realising that the left were 1 – 2% short of winning even though the polls were suggesting the result would be a landslide.

                    And let me know how much I am being paid and who I should seek it from.

                    • chris73 …
                      26 June 2014 at 9:53 pm

                      As I recall you also believed Labour would win the last two elections and were confident Cunliffe would be leader instead of Shearer so forgive me if I take what you say with a giant grain of salt

                    • mickysavage …
                      26 June 2014 at 9:59 pm
                      1. Post a link, any link will do.
                      2. I thought Cunliffe should rather than would be leader.
                      3. Take my comment with however much salt you want.
                    • chris73 …
                      26 June 2014 at 10:10 pm

                      Post a link like I’m really going to go through 6 years of posts to find something so I’ll go with Cunliffes excuse of my memory has obviously failed me

                    • felix …
                      26 June 2014 at 10:28 pm

                      Says the no.1 fan of the man who can’t remember the fucking Springbok tour.

                      🙄

                    • McFlock …
                      26 June 2014 at 10:30 pm

                      I’ll go with Cunliffes excuse of my memory has obviously failed me

                      lol
                      there’s a slight difference between forgetting a “to whom it may concern” letter signed eleven years ago and inventing something that didn’t happen two and a half years ago.

                      One is a normal condition in human memory, the other is a delusion or hallucination. Go see your doctor.

            • lprent 39.1.1.2.1.4
              26 June 2014 at 9:25 pm

              “If I was National, I’d be extremely worried.”

              You’re thinking tactics rather than strategy.

              Let me reframe this for you in terms you may be able to understand.

              I suspect that Labour didn’t suffer too much damage over the last week, and most of it went to the Greens rather than to National. It is both recoverable and doesn’t shift the coalition balances much.

              It was particularly tight up until the Herald On Sunday articles when it became quite clear to all party members that it was bullshit. Now almost everyone recognises now that it was complete bullshit because the stories changed several times.

              However from the way National is retreating in rapid disorder from their positions of last week at present, I suspect that they’re starting to feel the heat from the public.

              Moreover, I suspect that this has wasted one of National’s best allies from previous campaigns. The credibility of the NZ Herald is now crap for the rest of this campaign. Everything that the Herald puts out to do with the campaign will now be scrutinised to see if National is playing with them again. That is going to hurt National a lot.

              So will having reactivated the memories of NZ First about a similar sleaze campaign of innuendo and no substance run against them in 2008. If you think that will encourage them to go with National, then I suspect you need your head examined.

              And National’s campaign through the Herald just woke up the election campaign. That is bad for them because they activated the left. I’m sure that they wanted a quiet campaign this year because that was their best way of winning. Instead they have effectively increased the turnout. Hot election campaigns do that.

              You don’t win wars from engagements or even battles. You win them from a series of them. Of prime importance is to not damage your own forces so much in early engagements that you can’t push home a victory.

              I guess you didn’t do OCS or read a lot of military history?

              Incidentally, this screwup with weak follow through (because most of it was made up) had all of the hallmarks that characterised Whaleoil in the past. I guess Jason Ede and the rest of the National party sleaze team have a new sockpuppet.

              • chris73 …
                26 June 2014 at 9:36 pm

                Seriously dude, Labours dropping, Cunliffes about as popular as a cold sore but won’t last as long, two of Labours MPs have crossed the floor and John Keys as popular as hes ever been

                Spin whatever you like for the morale of the troops but this is very bad for Labour and the left

                • lprent …
                  26 June 2014 at 9:39 pm

                  I’d suggest that you know fuck all about election campaigns. You need to listen less to the chattering classes and get out to do some canvassing some time. It is an education about how people assimilate ‘news’.

                  • chris73 …
                    26 June 2014 at 9:49 pm

                    I’d suggest you have your blinkers on and have decided that wishing something was true ackshully makes it happen

                    • lprent …
                      26 June 2014 at 10:20 pm

                      Not particularly. I’ve accurately called most of the elections over the last 25 years. I missed on 1996, and called 2005 and 2011 as being too close to call from 3 months out. This one is also too close to call because it to in the end it will come down to coalition partners that are reliant on winning electorate seats as virtual clients of a major party.

                      National is going to be the largest party, but also the one with the least number of allies to form a government with. In particular they really stupidly blotted their copybook with NZ First in 2008. I suspect whichever way this turns out that is going to hurt them badly.

                    • chris73 …
                      26 June 2014 at 10:34 pm

                      Thats if Winston gets back, he may well do but he hasn’t managed to hit a hot topic yet as the anti-immigration doesn’t seem to be working

                      You’ll also remember National took a bit of a hit over the cup of tea with Act which won’t happen this time

                      Also this one is reading the tea leaves a bit but the Conservatives got 2.65% of the party vote at the last election so I’d suggest they might even do a little better this time around (3.5% maybe?) and if National gift them East Coast Bays thats at least 3 MPs + 2 from the Maori Party + one each from Act and Peter Dunne

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      26 June 2014 at 11:04 pm

                      I’d suggest you have your blinkers on and have decided that wishing something was true ackshully makes it happen

                      So are you going to get out there and do some actual canvassing or campaigning as lprent suggests?

                      I haven’t knocked on anywhere near as many doors as lprent has but I bet I properly beat you in having talked to randoms about how they were going to vote and why.

    • blue leopard 39.2
      26 June 2014 at 8:45 pm

      @ Chris73
      lol good old Monty Python – that skit you provide reminds me of English and Key talking about the state of poverty in NZ!

      ….and with a media like this what hope is there for an informed populace?

      • chris73 39.2.1
        26 June 2014 at 9:00 pm

        lol good old Monty Python – that skit you provide reminds me of English and Key talking about the state of poverty in NZ!

        • Whatever Nationals doing appears to be working while whatever Labours doing doesn’t, what will Cunliffe come up with next?
        • blue leopard 39.2.1.1
          26 June 2014 at 9:04 pm

          Dunt matta wat Cunliffe comes up with – the media reckon he’s a WITCH! 😆

  40. Naki man 40
    26 June 2014 at 8:41 pm

    The tv1 news poll is on Sunday, poor old Cunners the bad news never stops.

  41. felix 41
    26 June 2014 at 9:04 pm

    Now I know Richard Prosser isn’t exactly everyone’s idea of a thinking man’s thinker, but he fucking nailed it this afternoon on the windfall timber scam that National are pulling.

    Skip to about 2min 30sec, it’s all waffle up to there: http://www.inthehouse.co.nz/video/33769

  42. fisiani 42
    26 June 2014 at 9:20 pm

    http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/

    Chris Trotter is despairing of The Cunliffe.

  43. Kat 43
    26 June 2014 at 9:48 pm

    “I am sorry if you feel that lefties keep beating up on you and the Herald. It is just that many of us campaign actively and there is nothing worse than talking to someone who may otherwise be a supporter but they are affected by rumour and innuendo reinforced by the articles your paper publishes.”

    Would it be considered to be ‘on topic’ with the above to mention that Audrey Young, the Heralds chief political reporter, is doing exactly as mentioned above by way of her blatant politically biased commentary based on a single ‘TV poll’ in today’s Herald that states “National could govern alone”……..??

    [lprent: Not particularly. If I was doing it and wanting to go in that direction, I’d suggest starting with a paragraph Armstrong, Donghua Liu, National feeding crap to the Herald, mean vs median, or rumour and innuendo. They are all in the post.

    Here is a good example http://thestandard.org.nz/dear-john-armstrong/#comment-839704. That simply won’t attract my attention because it started with the post and then diverged. Your one did because it is characteristic of someone trying to force the post away from what the author said.

    Audrey Young is writing on a poll and putting her own spin on it. That is just Audrey displaying her known biases rather than any particular malice.

    Or start by replying to a comment that has some of the elements you want (that is the organic divergence approach).

    I really don’t like diversion comments away from the post that don’t show how they relate to the post. It is a pain for authors to write the things and there is nothing that pisses them or me off than idiotic people trying to rewrite what it is about. Especially since some of them are doing that deliberately.

    If you want to raise a new topic then use OpenMike. That is what it is there for. Don’t just write it on the top post because you think more people will read it. Firstly that isn’t the case, generally OpenMike tops the top post in terms of page views during a day. Secondly it pisses authors (and therefore me off) and they eventually stop writing.

    Moved to OpenMike. ]

    • mickysavage 43.1
      26 June 2014 at 9:56 pm

      Totally on topic. I wanted to concentrate on Armstrong’s comments.

      [lprent: I’m happy to move it back. But it really isn’t on anything you have raised. This is just Audrey being her usual slanted self. It is like Roughan is usually, stupidity rather than deliberate malice. One thing you can’t say about Armstrong is that he is stupid. So several of his articles recently like that resignation one show clear and deliberate malice. ]

      • Colonial Viper 43.1.1
        26 June 2014 at 10:25 pm

        One thing you can’t say about Armstrong is that he isn’t stupid.

        Hmmm is that double negative supposed to be there? “One thing you can say about Armstrong is that he is stupid” probably isn’t accurate

        [lprent: Thanks. Fixed. ]

      • mickysavage 43.1.2
        26 June 2014 at 10:47 pm

        I am obviously a softie lprent!

        [lprent: I damn near have a program that I run in my head when I’m scanning the comments that looks at expected norms of behaviour across the comment stream. Right now it has a higher than usual priority on divergent comments from the post because we’ve been getting too many of them from all sides. New people mostly but also old hands thinking the expected behaviour has loosened. ]

        • weka 43.1.2.1
          26 June 2014 at 11:12 pm

          As an aside, has the number of comments spiked in the last week or so? Looks like there are more posts than usual, but the comments are still pretty high across most of them.

        • Kat 43.1.2.2
          26 June 2014 at 11:21 pm

          Thats ok Iprent and Micky, I don’t really want to get into arguing over semantics however Audrey Young is the Heralds political editor and if Armstrong is not stupid then neither is she. My point being Audrey Young in her capacity as the Herald political editor is as complicit in any deliberate malice towards Cunliffe and Labour as John Armstrong is.

          • Colonial Viper 43.1.2.2.1
            26 June 2014 at 11:29 pm

            Pretty sure that the Herald in its old form called for the 1951 Waterfront strikers to be smashed down with brute force for the good of the nation.

            So at least they are being consistent.

  44. Populuxe1 44
    26 June 2014 at 10:04 pm

    So could Su’a William Sio please stop talking now? That would be awesome.

  45. fisiani 45
    26 June 2014 at 10:53 pm

    http://www.elections.org.nz/events/past-events-0/2011-general-election/2011-general-election-official-results
    Labour currently has about 600,000 votes
    National has 1,100,000 votes

    Looks like it will be really really close.

    • McFlock 45.1
      26 June 2014 at 11:00 pm

      The book you were supposed to read was “Statistics FOR Dummies”.
      You obviously picked up “Statistics BY Dummies” in error.

    • lprent 45.2
      26 June 2014 at 11:01 pm

      Another person who can’t keep more than two things in their head.

      You do understand how MMP invariably forces coalitions to form right? So why are you treating it as if it is a election with only two parties in it? Conservative habit?

  46. NZ Femme 46
    27 June 2014 at 12:03 am

    My favorite tweet of the day for it’s unintended irony:

    Judith Collins: Fantastic to open Wellington’s Ethnic People in Commerce conference today – NZs diversity is great for our businesses. [Insert picture of least ethnically diverse trio ever]

    https://twitter.com/JudithCollinsMP/status/482038476229976064

    H/T Ministry of Spin

  47. dimebag russell 47
    27 June 2014 at 12:10 am

    .how to run a campaign.
    secrets of political success from ancient rome to the present.
    quintus tullius cicero and james carville.
    foreign affairs may/june 2012.

  48. xtasy 48
    27 June 2014 at 1:40 am

    It is a bloody good deserved time, for all that CARE, that bother to inform themselves and more, young and bloody old, to get learn and inform yourselves, this is a time that is so damned crucial, we must all learn together, stand together and fight together, as what this present government forces us to cope with is inhumane, unreasonable and worse. Stand up and be counted, dear friends, no matter what political background, we must fight what we are being confronted with, best of wishes:

  49. fisiani 49
    27 June 2014 at 6:27 am

    The Cunliffe bounce
    Written By: JAMES HENDERSON – Date published: 9:43 am, October 30th, 2013 – 26 comments
    Categories: election 2014, polls – Tags:
    Fairfax suffered the double indignity of first having its poll contradicted by One News’ hours later and then Key himself mocking the idea that National is on 50%. Still rogue polls happen. That’s statistics. But we can try to look through the variation in single polls by comparing the 6 After David polls (including the Fairfax joke) to their 6 Before Cunliffe predecessors to see if there really has been a Cunliffe bounce.

    Here’s the results (thanks to Curiablog for collecting the polls and making my life easier)

    BC v AD polls(confusingly, the polls in each set are in chronological order with the most recent polls at the top, but the top set of polls came before the bottom set, sorry)

    As you can see, there’s a real difference. Before Cunliffe, National average 47.1% to the Labour-Greens’ 44.4%. After David, that’s reversed with Labour-Greens averaging 47.4% to National’s 44.9%.

    Labour is averaging nearly 4% more than it was under Shearer with half that increase coming from National, a quarter from the Greens, and the other quarter from the minors.

    Of course, there’s statistical variation in a poll of polls, just as there is in an individual one, only less so. Still, the signs are pretty clear that there has been a Cunliffe bounce and a Labour-Greens government is now favourite for 2014.

    Fairfax got one thing right: one swallow does not make a spring and one poll does not make a trend. But,looking at all the information together, it’s clear that there is a change in the air.

    Those were the days my friend, we thought they’d never end………….

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