Open Mike 27/01/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 27th, 2018 - 161 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

161 comments on “Open Mike 27/01/2018 ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. Sam 1
    26 January 2018 at 3:02 pm

    If you want to get youth interested first it must be established that mentors have implemented professional strategy and made money out of it. Why else would any one listen to any one trying to sell chemical sterilisation when they don’t even use the product themselves.

    You know? It’s just this moral vs economic argument always comes up and charlatan educators confuse the too.

    [picking the first comment upthread that looks most like the derail. Shifting the whole subthread because below it gets abusive. Sam, you got pretty free rein in that thread, but a warning, don’t derail and don’t get abusive on Guest Posts and Cross posts. That space was for the author and women in particular to discuss the issues she raised. I don’t want to have to start writing long explanatory comments under posts about where the moderation limits are, it’s easier for me to just moderate the odd commenter instead. I’d suggest dialing back the abuse across the whole site, because your name is starting to pop up too many times for this moderator’s attention. – weka]

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • McFlock 1.1
      26 January 2018 at 4:17 pm

      Dunno about “don’t even use the product themselves”. I’d leap at it if it were reversible – vasectomies can be, but with a pretty crude success rate.

      It’s not really about “getting the youth interested”, although the full informed consent thing goes for it. If you plug it to 11 year olds, they’ll do it because they’re not as stupid as teenage boys. And it’s also before 99.5% of them will be in a position to get someone knocked up.

      • Sam 1.1.1
        26 January 2018 at 4:27 pm

        In all interactions there is a need for a trusted broker. Some one who is not from either world but understands both. These people are very rear and hard to find and they usually cost a fortune. These people are not firmly the product of one system or another, these people have unique insights of finance, economics, politics, news and culture and what it all means.

        Good people think everything is like a movie that they can freeze development every time they become intensely involved. It does not work liked that. If good people want to substantially effect the strategic evolution of justice for woman good people can not come and go.

      • McFlock 1.1.2
        26 January 2018 at 4:34 pm

        I think you’re overthinking it.

      • Sam 1.1.3
        26 January 2018 at 4:46 pm

        It’s hard to tell if your joking or not about sterilising 11 yr olds… I mean that’s just fucking amazing… Some one get McFlock Obamas Nobel peace prize…

        Can you imagine the group think on the other side of a two way mirror observing minors as they interact after being sterilised… Ending with congratulations doctor. You’ve done it, you will now be validated. Any one who thinks mutalating the body is a good idea needs to try it first before selling it to others.

      • McFlock 1.1.4
        26 January 2018 at 5:24 pm

        Not talking permanent sterilization. An easily and reliably-reversible male contraceptive with fewer side effects than a vasectomy would save a lot of accidental pregnancies.

        Yes, like with HPV vax there’ll be some parents who reckon their little prince should not be exposed to the possibility of ever having sex, or seem to believe that it’s impossible to discuss the issue with a child without playing internet porn. Ironically half the time it seems that those are the parents whose kids end up making bad mistakes, but that’s just my anecdata.

        Kids around ten are actually pretty smart.
        It’s teenagers who tend to be fucking morons.

        Oh. “mutalating”. Yes, a 15y.o. considering an abortion or the alternatives is a much better option. 🙄

      • Sam 1.1.5
        26 January 2018 at 6:02 pm

        ok now I’m just going to say that McFlock does not have a medical license and if you did it should be withdrawn immediately. Seeking medical advice from anonymous avatars on the Internet is a terrible fucking idea because they have zero clue about local resources, were to go or what to do.

        I mean this is why us lefties are called fucking loonies. It’s like some how you think you’re different from gooie talking about ACT party abortion policy, if you post it ironically or as a joke…

      • McFlock 1.1.6
        26 January 2018 at 6:16 pm

        🙄

        really lucky that I’m not offering medical advice then, innit?

        Oh, and last I heard none of the reversible male contraceptives in development were available in NZ or even in human testing phase, let alone for nation-wide roll-out.

        They are just promising technologies that could help cut our unplanned pregnancy rate. Especially amongst teens, where pregnancy is often related to a number of hazardous behaviours such as maternal smoking and alcohol use.

        And I’m not the weirdo talking about conversations behind a two-way mirror in the sexual health clinic.

      • Sam 1.1.7
        26 January 2018 at 6:47 pm

        Removing diseases and disorders can only be a good thing. However I’m going to say that you’re likely really far off from reality and manipulating biology in such a manner to become much better as a species. At least without becoming something like The Master from Fallout.

        On the other hand I have some inclination to witness some mad SCIENCE to see if creating a being like the Master would even be possible.

        More seriously outside of curing disorders and defects I lean towards the cybernetic side of things for human improvement.

      • McFlock 1.1.8
        26 January 2018 at 7:01 pm

        Again, I get the impression you think this is a big eugenics proposal.

        It’s not.

        Regardless of harm to the child, the hazardous behavious associated with teen pregnancy simply indicate that the pregnancy itself is related to another risky behaviour (unprotected sex) rather than being a planned pregnancy. I did see a stat once that this does not correlate so much in cultures where women traditionally get pregnant young and have wider community support as it does where women traditionally wait until monogamous marriage,etc.

        To put it bluntly, the more teenage pregnancy is contrary to traditional values of that culture, the higher the percentage of teenage mother smoke, for example.

        And then as the mothers are older when they have their babies, the fewer of them smoke and actually the smoking rate drops significantly below the smoking rate of their peers.

        So for a lot of teens, having a child is another outcome of their phase of risky behaviour. If, without side effects and completely reversibly, we can limit that to the clap rather than 18 years of child rearing then why not offer it to the kids and their parents to discuss before they enter almost the riskiest time of their lives?

      • Sam 1.1.9
        26 January 2018 at 7:04 pm

        Wha??? There isn’t anything wrong with having children. It’s just society not likening it.

      • McFlock 1.1.10
        26 January 2018 at 7:59 pm

        yeah, because nobody has had the course of their lives massively altered by an unplanned pregnancy (that might have been prevented if the soon-to-disappear guy had had access to non-invasive, long acting and reliable contraception). /sarc. Lots of /sarc

      • Sam 1.1.11
        26 January 2018 at 8:07 pm

        Oh McFlock. McFlock, McFlock………. McFlock…….Mc Mc……….just like, wow buddy……

        If we want the state to be a force for good then we must recognise that the state is not a vehicle for science and innovation. What the state does do they must do well. State housing is one area that must do well. Instead of designer baby policies. Provisions could be made to supply single mothers with below cost housing ownership programmes so property minus land value on the provision that the house not be sold with in the first 5 years, or something, so that the mother has chips on the board… These are the things we ought to focus on.

      • McFlock 1.1.12
        26 January 2018 at 8:26 pm

        Oh come on – “designer babies”.

        It’s got nothing to do with that.

        It’s about pregnancy being a positive choice rather than a regretted accident. For both parties.

        Of course mothers should be supported to the full extent of the welfare state, but even with that people do end up suspending courses of study or work they really wanted to do in order to raise a kid on a shitty income. Do they regret it? Not for a second. The kids I know are loved intensely. But was it done the wrong way around, and would they prefer to have been able to sever all contact with a dropkick jerk and just have a kid with someone they love? In some cases, yes.

        What we ought to focus on is all of the above. Stopping teenagers from doing stupid things is always a challenge, and they and their parents should have the tools to at least limit the consequences.

        And as for “the state is not a vehicle for science and innovation”… please tell us more about that, using html documents transmitted over a UFB computer network…

      • Sam 1.1.13
        26 January 2018 at 8:37 pm

        You can not convince the uneducated to come off the play ground and fight for reproductive justice some where else. It’s economics really. The greater the sacrifice the more they will want in return.

        Let’s say we implemented your strategy if you want to call it that. So the 11 year old takes the inert for a limited time drug on the provision that life will be a little bit better for the species. So we will all live happily ever after. The end.

        With all Parametres predetermined you could come up with a convincing model that does exactly what you set out to do in a really fancy science lab. But out side the lad decisions have to be made between life and death that is something no child should have to contemplate.

      • McFlock 1.1.14
        26 January 2018 at 9:16 pm

        They don’t take it “for the species”.

        Any more than they wear condoms “for the species”.

        They talk it over with their parents and maybe a doctor, and see if it’s for them. If they come up with an alternative reason why they won’t accidentally knock up a classmate and spend their period of lowest income having child support deducted, then they don’t bother with it.

        But if they have access to a contraceptive that doesn’t require them to carry it in a pocket for a couple of years and hope it’s in good condition when they finally have a reason to use it, they should certainly have the option and everyone should certainly be aware it’s available before they need it. Which means (like HPV vax) before they start shagging each other.

        And you know what? People are already fighting for sex education. Kids are still shagging, but less of them are having babies. When a long-acting male contraceptive finally happens, it’ll just be another column in a sex ed flipchart, and they’ll know where to go for more information on it.

      • Sam 1.1.15
        26 January 2018 at 9:36 pm

        You lead me to believe that you were a literary genius of some kind, that all the good writers, what ever that meant exited The Daily Blog for the standard. But the more I read into your mind, the less impressed I am.

        But you should be congratulated for your work towards the moron of the century award.

        Sex is not taboo. In a population of 5mln you’ll get people acting outside acceptable social norms no mater what any one says.

        What I’m actually trying to say is you’re wasting people’s time and money and effort inventing artificial edifices tacted onto the education system because there’s stuff that teachers can’t do for some reason.

        If you ask teachers would they like more resources they say ok yeah. Just to help students navigate the landscape better, hardly ever do they come back with a oh we need more varied chemical restrains. That’s just insane. And putting all this over to the private sector is an order of magnitude more insane.

      • McFlock 1.1.16
        26 January 2018 at 10:28 pm

        and if you ask the same teachers whether they’ve stopped every kid they taught from ever making a foolish impulsive decision, not one would say yes.

        But obviously you have some weird agenda such that every mention of contraception is “designer baby” or “chemical restraint” territory.

        Every few days I end up sidelining a few groceries towards a mate whose steady boyfriend ran out of condoms and she didn’t know the pill she was on had lost its effectiveness (I didn’t even know that was a thing). She’s already in a state house, but the little money she has goes on the kid. She skips meals. Hence the groceries. Even without that to worry about, she felt she had to sideline study and professional development until this year. Fucko McDreamy left town three months before the birth.

        So yeah, accidental pregnancies are fucking disruptive to people’s lives. If Fucko had had an opportunity to make the choice when he wasn’t horny as fuck and probably a bit drunk, my mate would probably be in a decent job by now and have found someone who wasn’t a jerk, with whom she might plan a family.

      • Sam 1.1.17
        27 January 2018 at 12:14 am

        We can not hold every ones hands through life. There are only so many adjustments that can be made to the economy. What can be done is give woman access to resources and funds via public programmes like housing. So that when asset prices improve over time, so to does the prospects of woman improve over time. This is a problem all capitalist democracies face and we are still puzzled about how to combine idle hands with idle resources. This meme that says woman make for poor investments must die a horrible death.

        On average for every dollar invested in woman’s business globally you get slightly more than a dollar returns. For male dominated industry you’ll be lucky to get 20 cents back. Like seriously. Industry profit is down 80% right across the globe since 2008. I mean did y’all forget or something. It’s actually not a complicated argument.

        Personally I think the Coalition has a set of policies and ministers that will keep the kiwi dollar low and improve the prospects of domestic asset prices. These are the things that instruct how to invest time and money. And if it so happens that some drug company makes a brake through in inert for a limited time drugs and gets a license to sell it in New Zealand then it might be worth putting a bob on either way…

      • McFlock 1.1.18
        27 January 2018 at 1:40 pm

        what has any of that got to do with giving teens another contraceptive choice?

      • Sam 1.1.19
        27 January 2018 at 1:50 pm

        I honestly regret having entertained your drug marketing delusions.

      • McFlock 1.1.20
        27 January 2018 at 2:01 pm

        I still can’t figure out why you want to maintain the rate of unwanted pregnancy.

      • Sam 1.1.21
        27 January 2018 at 2:11 pm

        Are you pussy whipped? Looking to the future for chemical silver bullets could be the ruin of woman today. Not there salvation. Maybe you should have a shower and blow off some steam or something.

      • McFlock 1.1.22
        27 January 2018 at 2:26 pm

        I really hope “have a shower” isn’t the sum total of the contraceptive advice you believe should be given to teens.

      • Sam 1.1.23
        27 January 2018 at 2:35 pm

        Ya da, ya da, ya da, ya da………

        You know. You’re just wasting my time with your irrelevance. If male contraceptives was a thing it would be here already. If it was patented and some one picked it up with an investment model in New Zealand I’d probably put some money in myself because we have some PR merchants piming limited for a time sterilisation.

        I mean you mind is about 5 years way to early if any of this even materialises in reality. In the mean time how ever.

        Look. He choices for woman are not the same for men. If you give boys a wonder drug that takes away some of the responsibility it will for ever change the genetic make up of the human race and that I think you are naively. Your just wasting time now with me checking in on this conversation so fuck off time waster.

      • McFlock 1.1.24
        27 January 2018 at 2:43 pm

        Well if you think the discussion is five years too early, why the hell didn’t you say that when I was quite clear about what stage they were at in development? It would have saved a lot of time.

        As for your fears about changing the genetic profile of humanity, don’t worry about that because there will still be more than enough total morons like you around to make up the difference.

  2. savenz 2
    27 January 2018 at 8:21 am

    World’s first electric container barges to sail from European ports this summer
    Dubbed the ‘Tesla of the canals’, the unmanned vessels will operate on Dutch and Belgian waterways, vastly reducing diesel vehicles and emissions

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jan/24/worlds-first-electric-container-barges-to-sail-from-european-ports-this-summer?CMP=fb_gu

    • Bill 2.1
      27 January 2018 at 9:14 am

      6.7% of freight in the EU currently going by inland waterway isn’t a nothing. And existing barges can be retro-fitted. Also a good thing.

      But with sea-level rise being slated to be somewhere in the 3m to 6m range this century by some leading researchers… well, there goes a fair amount of any country’s canal network.

      It should be done regardless. Abandoning infrastructure and writing off investments is going to be the order of the day anyway. And doing stuff now on a grand enough scale, even if it won’t survive in the medium term, is going to reduce the impacts we’ll be dealing with…assuming no tipping points triggered in the meantime.

    • millsy 2.2
      27 January 2018 at 11:16 am

      Using batteries made from precious metals mined from placed with very poor environmental records….

  3. savenz 3
    27 January 2018 at 8:23 am

    Brexit: Britons favour second referendum by 16-point margin – poll
    Guardian/ICM survey finds rising interest in vote on final deal as concerns mount over EU talks

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/26/britons-favour-second-referendum-brexit-icm-poll

    • James 3.1
      27 January 2018 at 9:47 am

      The only poll that counted was the referendum.

      It’s brexit baby.

      Would you be calling for a new election if the polls showed the right polling higher than the government?

        • James 3.1.1.1
          27 January 2018 at 11:21 am

          Indeed. But you would *hope* any government would honour the results of a referendum (obv I support binding referendums here as well).

          • Psycho Milt 3.1.1.1.1
            27 January 2018 at 1:05 pm

            I wouldn’t hope that. We elect representative governments in western democracies, not functionaries who report back to us for instructions every time a decision needs to made. Referenda in NZ have been good ways of appealing to prejudice or forcing people to make an assumption about what some ambiguously-worded question actually means, but not much use otherwise.

            And in the case of Brexit, they’re making drastic changes to British society based on a 51/49 result following an ad campaign that featured huge funding by Tory interests on behalf of the ‘leave’ faction. Any sensible representative government would put it Parliament and accept the results.

            • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1.1.1.1
              27 January 2018 at 9:42 pm

              Referenda in NZ have been good ways of appealing to prejudice or forcing people to make an assumption about what some ambiguously-worded question actually means, but not much use otherwise.

              So we need to ask better questions. To find a way to make sure leading and suggestive question aren’t asked.

              It doesn’t mean that we stop trying to become a better democracy.

              • gsays …
                28 January 2018 at 12:49 am

                Ok draco, the question is well worded etc, what’s to stop a wealthy lobby group (taxpayers union for example) running a welll timed dis-information campaign and getting or denying the result they wish.

                Gotta say I am not a fan of binding referenda.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  28 January 2018 at 1:33 am

                  Well, they run such a campaign before we voted for MMP and then they ran another one when National tried to change to SM.

                  Didn’t work either of those times.

                  Are mistakes going to be made?

                  Yep but people learn from mistakes. Our present system allows people not to learn from the mistakes made. Allows them to blame others for the outcomes rather than owning them and learning from them.

                  Whinging that it’s just too hard doesn’t make us or our society better.

                  • gsays …
                    28 January 2018 at 2:36 pm

                    We’re the 2 referenda you referred to, binding?

                    Before we get into binding ‘i reckons’ we need to:
                    raise levels of participation,
                    have media ownership diversified,
                    lobbyists banished or at least adhere to a register
                    and generally raise awareness of the system and individuals ‘responsibilities’

            • Hornet 3.1.1.1.1.2
              27 January 2018 at 10:02 pm

              PM

              In the case of EU membership, there is a precedent (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_European_Communities_membership_referendum,_1975). Under those circumstances, the referendum was entirely appropriate.

          • Macro 3.1.1.1.2
            27 January 2018 at 2:05 pm

            The majority of voters in the UK had no idea what they were voting for in the Brexit referendum. The idiot Cameron put it up as a way to shut up the alt right faction thinking that sanity would prevail and the nonsense of Britain leaving the EU would be self evident. He mis-understood the lies and deceit that would be spread by the alt right, UKIP, and the leave campaign, and the stupidity of the old and decrepit who live in the golden years of the past British Empire (These Daily Mail readers still make up the majority of Brexiters).
            Just one example of the damage that has been wrought on Britain since this manic decision

            Around 10,000 EU nationals have quit the NHS since the Brexit referendum, it has emerged.

            NHS Digital, the agency that collects data on the health service, found that in the 12 months to June, 9,832 EU doctors, nurses and support staff had left, with more believed to have followed in the past three months.

            https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/sep/21/almost-10000-eu-health-workers-have-quit-the-nhs-since-brexit-vote
            London is already suffering as thousands of financial services jobs are axed and business transfers to the EU.
            Manufacturing jobs are also under threat particularly AIrbus

            Airbus has told MPs that Britain risks losing the “crown jewels” of its aviation industry to China as a result of Brexit, putting up to 7,000 wing-manufacturing jobs in Wales at risk.

            https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/21/airbus-boss-says-brexit-risks-losing-uk-aviations-crown-jewels-to-china
            And that is only the fate of those in the UK – the status of British nationals in the EU is also uncertain. It’s an absolute pot mess – and the only way to undo it is to cancel it.

            • James 3.1.1.1.2.1
              27 January 2018 at 4:51 pm

              “The majority of voters in the UK had no idea what they were voting for in the Brexit ”

              Do you believe that to be all voters – or just the voters who didn’t vote for the result you wanted ?

              • Psycho Milt …
                27 January 2018 at 5:03 pm

                I’d say literally the majority. Thing is, “stick with the status quo” is the sensible option if you have no idea what voting for change would bring, so it’s the leave voters who are the assholes here.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  27 January 2018 at 9:46 pm

                  Would you vote for the status quo if you were becoming worse off because of it and it had been doing so for decades?

                  Or would you vote for any sort of change that may make things better for you?

              • Macro …
                27 January 2018 at 5:15 pm

                Having spoken to a number of UK residents over the past year – people who were engaged in politics in the UK at a variety of different levels and from what I have read over the past year in the media (apart from the Daily Mail and The Telegraph) the constant refrain has been just that. Voters simply did not understand what it was they were voting on – the old and senile thought they were voting for things to go back to the glory days of the British Empire – and that is what they still fondly believe – but such a notion is nonsense. English law is now firmly aliened with EU, and has to be for such open borders as now exist. Furthermore the falsehood of 350 Million Pounds per week flowing into the NHS was just blatant nonsense, but fooled millions of voters.

            • Gabby 3.1.1.1.2.2
              28 January 2018 at 8:05 am

              Is that because Airbus would prefer fellow EU member China????

              • Macro …
                28 January 2018 at 12:22 pm

                No. if you read the article linked to, it it is because suddenly there will be a financial wall (tariff barrier), access for workers from the EU to and from the UK will be restricted, there is still no concept of how trade will continue between the EU and the UK, and a raft of other problems make the continuation of an EU wide manufacturing process – part of which is in Wales – impossible.

      • savenz 3.1.2
        27 January 2018 at 1:44 pm

        The point of another vote on brexit being that they vote on what is really going to happen. Before many of the ‘pluses’ were bogus and also not enough Britain’s took it seriously enough to vote in the first referendum.

      • Ed 3.1.3
        27 January 2018 at 6:35 pm

        Something I agree with you about!

  4. Ed 4
    27 January 2018 at 8:39 am

    1/5 of Auckland schools lacking teachers.
    House prices.
    Expensive rentals.
    Rapid immigration .
    Declining numbers of teacher trainees.

    Crisis.
    Neoliberalism.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11981812

    • savenz 4.1
      27 January 2018 at 9:01 am

      Teachers are also very undervalued in NZ especially compared to other countries like Finland where it is considered a top profession and you normally need a masters, and it’s a hard course to enter.

      In NZ teachers have been denigrated for 30 years, their union has been weakened and it’s no wonder that less people who would be fantastic teachers, are not joining or staying in the profession.

      NZ has never valued local skills, instead under neoliberalism have created policy to sell and semi privatise education by stealth and then just bring in overseas teachers, doctors, nurses, fruit pickers, cleaners, fisherman – you name it – anything to pander to their globalist ideology and drive local wages and conditions down. Apparently it is to compete with Asia.

      When locals don’t have access to jobs, starting with part time work when they are studying which has dried up with the amount of work permits being given out, then it becomes harder and harder to actually learn the structure of work, getting up, punctuality etc.

      Now we are getting generations who will struggle to work because they don’t have the skills to do it and it’s harder to start out when you are older to learn basic skills.

      Then you get the catch 22, more people with immigration to provide the work the ‘hopeless’ ‘overpaid’ locals are not deemed fit for by employers and government, more competition for jobs and houses and more strains on schools and health care and social services needed for the increased population as well as more strains on natural resources and the strains on people’s mental wellbeing as more and more people have to compete for basics like accomodation, minimal waged jobs etc.

      • Ed 4.1.1
        27 January 2018 at 9:06 am

        In Finland

        Education is valued.
        Children are valued.
        Teachers are valued.

        In New Zealand

        we know the price of everything
        and the value of nothing.

        • James 4.1.1.1
          27 January 2018 at 9:42 am

          Perhaps you are speaking for yourself.

          I understand the value of education, which is why we put our kids thru private school.

          Now two own businesses and the third is working thru uni (with a pet time job not running up a huge student loan).

          We also always read to kids every night when they were small – have them a love of books and patented them that they had to do all homework / study before “the fun stuff”.

          There are a lot of parents who value education out there.

          Of course there are a lot of lousy parents also that let their own kids down.

          • Stunned mullet 4.1.1.1.1
            27 January 2018 at 9:58 am

            Which part of the country are you in that you felt the need to put your children through private schools ?

            • james 4.1.1.1.1.1
              27 January 2018 at 10:25 am

              I never said I needed too. I wanted too.

              Its Auckland – Kristin school. We just liked it.

              • Stunned mullet …
                27 January 2018 at 10:33 am

                OK sorry I misunderstood, i thought you were suggesting that the private schools offered a better education experience than public schools.

                Auckland’s North Shore is certainly very well served by many very good schools public, integrated and private.

              • Brigid …
                27 January 2018 at 11:23 am

                ” I wanted too.”
                Do you understand how lucky you are that you could afford to?

                Would the widowed mother on $18.00 an hour, working at paknsav have been able to?

                You do shop at paknsav don’t you? It is the cheapest groceries outlet and we all must not be profligate if we want to get ahead.

                • Chuck …
                  27 January 2018 at 12:45 pm

                  Private or Public? I went to both when I was a kid. All my children have gone to Public schools…and you know what makes the biggest difference to an education? The teachers…if you are lucky enough to have a good teacher/s it makes no difference if you go Private of Public.

                  • Stunned mullet …
                    27 January 2018 at 1:15 pm

                    I agree that teachers are vastly important to a good education, I’d also add that a well run school that staff and students can flourish and feel safe in and the involvement and encouragement of parents in the students education will also reap huge benefits.

                • james …
                  27 January 2018 at 2:24 pm

                  “Do you understand how lucky you are that you could afford to?”

                  You do understand that its not all ‘Luck’ dont you. There has been a lot of hard work and sacrifice to be able to do this.

                  Its the old saying – “the harder I work – the luckier I get”

                  • Sam …
                    27 January 2018 at 2:42 pm

                    If you want to talk about odds I think I know a thing or 2 about that.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke …
                    27 January 2018 at 6:47 pm

                    “the harder I work – the luckier I get”

                    😆

                    People who get lucky suffer from attribution errors. Thanks for providing yet another example.

                    • Ed …
                      27 January 2018 at 7:16 pm

                      There are many many cleaners, nurses, and other people in underpaid jobs who are very hardworking

                    • James []
                      27 January 2018 at 10:12 pm

                      I’m sure there are.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      27 January 2018 at 7:19 pm

                      They don’t play enough golf 😉

                    • Ed …
                      27 January 2018 at 7:21 pm

                      Or go to the right schools

                    • mac1 …
                      27 January 2018 at 11:16 pm

                      I’m sure there are, too, James.

                      After a career in teaching, I spent four years as a cleaner and gardener. All the people I worked with, and for, were hard-working. There were no shirkers. And cleaning was hard work. One of the owners, a man of retirement age, said that he couldn’t do that job for eight hours. He didn’t have the energy. He was right. Hard work.
                      Our bosses knew. We knew. But some of the owners of the houses we cleaned. You could tell there who the slovenly, ill-educated and artistically impoverished were.

                      I could retire. My wife, a teacher as well, did the same. At seventy, she retired as a cleaner for the same firm.

                      Most of our colleagues could not retire but had to keep on working for just above minimum pay. The bosses couldn’t really pay more. Large firms from out of town undercut their contracts.

                      Cleaning is an honourable occupation, necessary and invaluable. Cleaners return x15 their wages as value to society. Just consider the worth of hospital cleaners. When I go into hospital, as an experienced cleaner, I look at the roof and walls, the floor and and the plumbing. Always clean, always reassuringly safe and hygienic.

                      Yes , James, you can be sure there are hard-working cleaners. Be aware. Observe. Be thankful there are, for the money and social recognition they, we, get.

                • Ed …
                  27 January 2018 at 7:46 pm

                  James has a barbecue
                  James has a boat
                  James sent his kids to private school

                  James is 48.
                  James is rich.

                  And ‘James ‘ is not real.

                  • solkta …
                    27 January 2018 at 7:53 pm

                    that doesn’t even rhyme.

                  • James …
                    27 January 2018 at 10:19 pm

                    Ed.

                    Ed does not barbecue but likes Brussel sprouts.
                    Ed does not have a boat but he hates people donating to Alzheimer’s or heart kids.
                    Ed would not appear to be rich bit is certainly envious of those with more than him.
                    Ed is ageless.
                    I hope Ed is not real because it depresses me that there are people so bitter.

                    Didn’t rhyme either and is just as pointless.

              • Macro …
                27 January 2018 at 11:57 am

                I’ve taught in a number of schools around the country – Private, State, and Independent. I even had the misfortune of spending 3 years teaching at Kristin. I have to say it was the worst school in 28 years in the classroom I ever experienced.
                The year I left there was a staff turn-over of 28%. The dissatisfaction of staff and the poor staff morale was tangible. I wouldn’t want to speak ill of the place – but your comment above forced me.
                It’s all image and show – Progress with vision, integrity, and love. Bullshit!

          • One Two 4.1.1.1.2
            27 January 2018 at 11:18 am

            Hold on a sec…

            If you put your kids through private school, and now they’re old enough to own businesses, and the other works part time to fund uni…

            So your offspring are into their 20’s as a minimum, which would have you in 40’s at best, or more likely the 50’s or beyond…

            When you put the boot into ‘lousy parents’, that signals your own ‘parenting efforts’ are as ‘lousy’ as those you took the time to denegrate…

            That is the height of hypocrisy…and indicates a stunted, arrested personal growth journey of a middle aged ‘man’…

            Unless of course, it’s fairy tales…

            Then you’ve been caught short…again…

            • James 4.1.1.1.2.1
              27 January 2018 at 11:24 am

              I’m 48.

              “‘lousy parents’, that signals your own ‘parenting efforts’ are as ‘lousy’ as those you took the time to denegrate”

              I do not agree with that.

              There are plenty of parents who are indeed lousy. Stating that as fact does not make me a bad or lousy parent.

              • One Two …
                27 January 2018 at 11:47 am

                Of course you wouldn’t agree with it, James…

                You don’t understand what I’ve alluded to…that’s not your level…which again…indicates a severely stunted personal growth curve… of a ‘middle aged man’…who makes up stories on an anonymous blog site…

                48 year old ‘man’….

                • Psycho Milt …
                  27 January 2018 at 12:57 pm

                  You don’t understand what I’ve alluded to…

                  I can’t see how he possibly could. As usual, your comments make the Oracle of Delphi appear plain-speaking.

                  • james …
                    27 January 2018 at 3:03 pm

                    One Two finds it more important to try a ‘gotcha’ or to simply make statements that they have zero knowledge of than to make sense or seem rational.

                    • One Two …
                      27 January 2018 at 4:08 pm

                      ‘Gotchas’ are courtesy of the plethora of contradicting yet ‘informative’ comments made under the handle, James….

                      Silver platter stuff…

                      Macro made a comment regarding having been a teacher at ‘Kristin’…you’ve read it, but not replied…silver platter…

                      Macro, perhaps unwittingly, exposed another of your fairy tales..

                      48 years old, agitating and commenting on a sub par level about the importance of education….

                      My oh my…yes

                    • James []
                      27 January 2018 at 5:01 pm

                      There was nothing I felt comfortable to reply to Marco – he / she didn’t like teaching there. I don’t know what years it was – but our experience as parents differed.

                      Big deal.

                    • Chuck …
                      27 January 2018 at 4:50 pm

                      One Two I went to Kristen School for a year as a pupil. It was a while back but found the school very good at helping me to catch up in certain areas of my schooling.

                      No idea what it is like now in 2018…but know of other parents who sent their kids to Kristen over the last 4 to 5 years and they seemed ok with the education they received (all be it expensive).

                      So what is the “Gotchas” in regards to james comment?

                    • Pete …
                      27 January 2018 at 6:35 pm

                      James, when I saw “I understand the value of education” I thought I was going to read that that was why your children had become teachers.

                      When you suggested that your kids have been successful I see it wasn’t in teaching.

                      I wonder how many parents of kids who go to Kristin encourage their kids to go teaching? There’s another vital service, a work place not far from Kristin which the parents are keen to see succeed and whose importance they likely comment on a lot. I wonder how many Kristin parents encourage their kids to work there. Paremoremo Prison.

                    • James []
                      27 January 2018 at 10:20 pm

                      Like most others – I encourage my kids to do what they enjoy and want to do.

                      If they wanted to be teachers – cool. They just didn’t.

            • Ed 4.1.1.1.2.2
              27 January 2018 at 6:38 pm

              James’s online persona is a total fabrication.
              He is a sad lonely middle aged man who spends his days on a website whose values he is at odds with.

          • mary_a 4.1.1.1.3
            27 January 2018 at 7:37 pm

            @ James (4.1.1.1) … Gosh I hope the private education and university level education had a better outcome on your children’s ability to spell, considering yours leaves a lot to be desired!

            Another point about education which we also put great value on. We were ordinary working class parents, who sent our (now adult) children to good old state schools to be primary and secondary educated, followed by tertiary education. One child was exceptionally intelligent, while the other was average, but always displayed a good work attitude. Despite the differences in this regard, they have both done exceedingly well for themselves in their chosen careers, working in the health and justice professions respectively.

            My point being, regardless of whether a person is state or privately educated, as long as they are encouraged and respected for their individual abilities, they will shine in whatever they choose to do.

            • Ed 4.1.1.1.3.1
              27 January 2018 at 7:42 pm

              Private schools have no place in a civilised socialist state.
              We do not need ghettos.
              Equality was one of the 3 demands of the French Revolution.

              • mary_a …
                27 January 2018 at 9:28 pm

                Ed @ (4.1.1.1.3.1) … Well put.

                Liberté égalité fraternité is the motto of the French revolution meaning freedom, equality and fraternity, something which has been sorely absent in the social structure of Aotearoa for the past 30 years.

                Liberty, egality and fraternity is the structure base of a civilised, fair and decent social system, which respects its citizens for their individual value above all else, regardless of status.

                Judging by the tone of Jacinda’s statements during and after the election, I’m positive the coalition government intends to address the vicious and inhumane social failing afflicting our country, during its term of office.

              • Macro …
                27 January 2018 at 11:10 pm

                Actually Ed private schools do have a place – although not as elitist “academies”. But they can cater for special needs and act as a vehicle for innovative ideas where a state school is more ham strung by regulation. All children have different needs and a one format fits all approach is not necessarily the best way to educate. Pedagogy needs to be responsive to the needs of the student and in some ways that is best achieved in a non state school. I have already intimated above that I have taught in a variety of different schools Military, State, Private, Home school, and Independent. The worst and best were private, with State schools running a close second best and second worst.
                The real difference was in the ethos of each school – was it committed to Education – or was it solely interested in academic achievement. There is a big difference. If academic achievement is the be all, and end all of the school, then education, as such, goes out the window. In a private school (and to some extent state schools) I found that that ethos was driven as much by the parents, as it was by anyone else. Now it is nice that Jane or Johnnie will end up with a nice certificate to say that they successful regurgitated the necessary rhubarb on a series of assessments, but it is not education. The instruction may be brilliant, but there is no guarantee that the mind has been engaged. To engage the mind actually risks questioning the perceived ‘knowledge’.
                As an example, in a class we were considering the concept of area – just what did they think area was and how could we measure it – these were “vege math” students at what was then 6th form – just passed school cert but not considered bright enough to gain UE in math. There were a number of suggestions – place a piece of string around it (confusing perimeter with area) etc. But the one that really blew us away was – weigh it. Now that would seem to be nonsense – but actually it proved to be the most accurate! Take a leaf. How do you measure its area? Photocopy it, cut around the image and weigh the resulting piece of paper. Knowing the density of the paper you can calculate the area.
                Now there will never be an exam, or test, that will assess this sort of thinking – but this is real education where the engagement of mind has lead to the solution of a problem.

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  28 January 2018 at 6:07 am

                  I think you need to explain why special needs cannot be catered for in a public system, considering that “one format fits all” is the opposite of the Finnish approach that our teachers and teachers’ unions have been promoting for years.

                  The goal of National Party education policy is not to educate, nor even to graduate, but to smash the teachers’ unions so that the sector can be privatised.

                  Pedagogy needs to be responsive to the needs of the student and in some ways that is best achieved in a non state school

                  Hardly surprising when (underfunded) state schools have had a ‘one format fits all’ approach forced on them by right wing greed.

                  In some ways, the only thing unique about Finnish schools is that the National Party USA approach to education doesn’t have any influence there.

                  • Macro …
                    28 January 2018 at 4:29 pm

                    I think you need to explain why special needs cannot be catered for in a public system, considering that “one format fits all” is the opposite of the Finnish approach that our teachers and teachers’ unions have been promoting for years.

                    I haven’t been avoiding answering this request rather I’ve been working on framing my response as helpfully as I can. I think we can agree that every child has different needs, whether they are the most or the least intelligent or emotionally developed or the least (a la D Trump) or the most physically capable or visually challenged or are socially advantaged, or what ever. Those needs are special to that child and need to be addressed before any real progress can be made on education.
                    Now essentially the Finnish model (which I endorse btw) does seek to address that most basic issue, but the problem is that with the present state of conventional wisdom in this country, such a system stands as much chance of implementation as a snowballs chance in hell. Just imagine the uproar from “concerned” parents if their child was not introduced to “formal” learning until age 6 or 7! Just imagine if laptops, tablets, and computers were taken out of the classrooms up to high school – and then only at senior level! Just imagine if there were no formal assessments in Junior school and only one or two final assessment at the end of High school and maybe not even then. Just imagine if mathematics and science involved drawing and the arts. And every student was involved in acting, music. and drama, and learned to knit and dance.
                    There are such schools available in NZ. They follow a curriculum and pedagogy developed over a 100 years ago, and the Finnish model of education has adopted many of their practices. But these schools are private. I had the privilege to teach in one of these schools for several years, and it was the most fulfilling and enriching period of my now 3 score years and 10 plus a few more. One of my pupils has just completed Auckland med school graduating top. Another who entered the class (completely unable to survive in a state school, and spent the first few weeks hiding behind the clothes stand) is now an engineer. Another is a graduate of Toi Whakaari, works as a sexual abuse councillor and facilitator for ACC in secondary schools, and regional co-convenor for the Greens, and was elected to a community board at the last local body elections. Another is a manager for a Travel firm and others are farmers, mechanics etc.
                    I’m not an anthroposophist but I believe Steiner got it pretty right with his system of education. Here is a comparison done by a US waldorf educator after hearing Pasi Sahlberg, director general of the Center for International Mobility and Cooperation in Finland’s Ministry of Education, speak at the Chicago Humanities Festival about why
                    Finland ranks first with the best school system in the world.
                    http://chicagowaldorf.org/uploads/files/Finland_Education-by_Carol_Triggiano.pdf – note pdf

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      28 January 2018 at 6:39 pm

                      Thanks for that Macro. It never crossed my mind that you’d be avoiding it 🙂

                      As a concerned parent I’m more than happy to go toe-to-toe with any of my peers giving your excellent vision a hard time.

                      I suspect that the best way the Left can destroy the National Party’s ambitions for education is by closing all private schools and forcing Mummy and Daddy to confront the consequences of their actions at the ballot box, or failing that, to follow Finland’s example and figure out a way to stop the National Party from attacking children.

                      Yeah dreams are free, and I know now’s never the right time.

            • James 4.1.1.1.3.2
              27 January 2018 at 10:23 pm

              Yes my spelling is not great.

              I left school at 15 and I’m slightly dyslexic. And I’m also lazy.

              As for the comment “My point being, regardless of whether a person is state or privately educated, as long as they are encouraged and respected for their individual abilities, they will shine in whatever they choose to do.”

              Could not agree more.

      • Chuck 4.1.2
        27 January 2018 at 4:12 pm

        Indeed, In Finland teaching is held in very high regard.

        “Because the Finnish system places so much emphasis on school and teacher autonomy, there are not clearly defined career ladders. Teachers have control over their classrooms, lesson plans, and hours outside of teaching.”

        http://ncee.org/what-we-do/center-on-international-education-benchmarking/top-performing-countries/finland-overview/finland-teacher-and-principal-quality/

        The various NZ Teachers Unions would have kittens over the Finland model!! they need to control everything.

        For example – Charter Schools.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.2.1
          27 January 2018 at 5:26 pm

          More than 95% of teachers in Finland are unionized.

          From your link:

          Research indicates that the average Finnish teacher spends seven days a year on professional development, with some municipalities arranging large, multi-school training events and others leaving it up to schools to develop in-service programs. However, teachers’ schedules in Finland enable a great deal of teacher collaboration to support their professional growth.

          Any chance you and the truth might recognise one another on the street?

          • Chuck 4.1.2.1.1
            27 January 2018 at 5:51 pm

            It’s clear that Finnish teachers have a much better union to support them.

            Any chance you can understand that OAB?

            • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.2.1.1.1
              27 January 2018 at 6:35 pm

              What’s clear is that you tried to lie about the influence of unions in Finnish education and now you’re spinning like a David Farrar-shaped dupe.

              You don’t know anything about pedagogy or how professional development works in NZ either. You can keep letting David Farrar dribble down your chin, but don’t fool yourself that it has the slightest relevance to reality, or me.

              There’s no chance you understand that Chuck.

              • Chuck …
                27 January 2018 at 7:26 pm

                OAB please point out where I “lied” about the influence of unions in Finnish education.

                What I pointed out was the stark difference between how teachers can operate in Finland verse their counterparts in NZ. Which of course is made possible by the Finnish teacher’s union.

                Maybe we should send you up to Finland for some personal development to take back to your school 😉

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  27 January 2018 at 7:34 pm

                  😆

                  I’m way ahead of you Chuck, you poor dupe. I had already searched for NZ teacher union remarks about Finnish education in anticipation that you’d try and parrot some more of the lies you swallowed like a gullible fool.

                  Here’s a selection:

                  There are great models that we can follow from countries such as Finland with high achieving systems…

                  If I were the Minister of Education for Aotearoa New Zealand the first thing I would do is go to Finland…

                  The Finns have been able to create the most successful education system in the world because their politicians have been able to put the strategic educational needs of the country before their own party interests…

                  Walked right into that didn’t you Chuck. Now stop lying and smearing your betters, you rotten filth.

                  PS: My school? You think I’m a teacher 😆 what a moran.

                  • weka …
                    27 January 2018 at 8:18 pm

                    Please tone down the personal abuse.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      27 January 2018 at 10:21 pm

                      While we’re at it, perhaps someone could ask Chuck to stop attempting to defame and smear an entire profession.

                      After all, his lies have victims, and those victims are children. ‘Rotten’ and ‘filth’ are mild descriptors in the circumstances.

                      Anyhow, I’ll try and display my disgust and contempt using more acceptable language.

                    • weka …
                      27 January 2018 at 11:55 pm

                      Christ OAB, you don’t expect me to read the whole thread do you.

                      There’s no reason why the community can’t be more self-regulating. So I have no problem with you asking any commenter to stop maligning a whole profession, providing you don’t absue someone in the process. Your problem is that you give shit to people so why should they do what you ask?

                      I’m only going to get involved as a moderator if I see behaviour escalating that is going to cause problems for the site. In this case, the inevitable descent into abusive comments. I listen to the people who say that stuff puts them off from being involved in conversations here. I have to admit I’m stumped by the people who don’t get that. I mean I love a good argument as much as the next man, but I also understand that how I comment has impact and repercussions and that if I don’t want this place to become a ghettoised macho clique I might want to change how I do things.

                      I get you are on a mission to hold RWers and others in the way of progressive politics to account. I’m just pointing out that how you do that creates problems.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.2.1.1.2
              27 January 2018 at 7:08 pm

              As an example of your utter lack of understanding, you praise Finland because:

              …the Finnish system places so much emphasis on school and teacher autonomy, there are not clearly defined career ladders. Teachers have control over their classrooms, lesson plans, and hours outside of teaching.

              …but you vote for Notional Standards, which are a direct attack on teacher autonomy.

              You can’t even read your own citations. You might know the individual words but the meaning goes over your head. For once in your life, stop mindlessly repeating the right wing lies you rote-learned.

              • Chuck …
                27 January 2018 at 7:38 pm

                The personal insults aside…I am glad you are opening your mind away from the status quo that the various teacher unions in NZ just can’t seem to let go of.

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  27 January 2018 at 10:23 pm

                  Yawn. More lies. The same lies, in fact, that were employed against the teaching profession in 2008.

                  Take your mind back from the sewer.

                  • Chuck …
                    28 January 2018 at 9:13 am

                    “While we’re at it, perhaps someone could ask Chuck to stop attempting to defame and smear an entire profession.”

                    OAB if for one minute you did not let the red haze of rage cloud your mind, you might have a chance not to miss represent what I say.

                    By profession, I assume you mean teachers? Teachers can only work within the framework of the day. They are restricted by a/ the Unions and b/ the Government of the day.

                    Good teachers are worth gold, I want to see good teachers rewarded and helping struggling teachers up to their level. Schools should be able to do whats best for their students, which is not a one size fits all approach.

                    So have a great day OAB, I don’t expect you to agree with anything I have said…that ok. A debate is good and I do take on board other peoples views that may challenge mine.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      28 January 2018 at 9:31 am

                      Schools should be able to do whats best for their students, which is not a one size fits all approach.

                      So you agree with the NZEI and PPTA then. That’s exactly what they’ve been saying.

                      Unfortunately you voted for Notional Standards instead, which calls your lip service into question.

                      But everyone knows that really, you’re motivated by nothing but hatred for the freedoms of association and expression represented by the teachers’ unions, and all your* rhetoric is simply in service to that hate.

                      *except it isn’t really yours, you just parrot the things you rote-learn at the sewer.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      28 January 2018 at 9:35 am

                      I want to see good teachers rewarded and helping struggling teachers up to their level

                      Rejoice and wipe your chin, Chuck: this is exactly what’s been happening for decades, as the National Party lied and lied and lied to you about it.

                      Why didn’t you notice it? Grossly distended amygdala? Shares in CSUSA? Blinded by hate?

      • patricia bremner 4.1.3
        27 January 2018 at 10:52 pm

        Put median incomes NZ 2017, into the net. Be a plumber or electrician, you will earn twice what a teacher, (after 4/5 years) will earn. So there it is… not valued!!

        • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.3.1
          28 January 2018 at 6:24 am

          I doubt higher salaries would be sufficient incentive to endure the results of decades of lies and contempt for the profession, embodied by such people as Anne Tolley and Hekia Parata.

          • Chuck 4.1.3.1.1
            28 January 2018 at 7:13 pm

            I did not release that Tolley and Parata had been Education minister’s for the last 3 or 4 decades OAB!

            You may have some valid points to make, but your contempt and hatred for anything not remotely resembling your narrative negate your message.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.3.1.1.1
              28 January 2018 at 7:18 pm

              embody
              ɪmˈbɒdi,ɛmˈbɒdi/Submit
              verb
              past tense: embodied; past participle: embodied
              1.
              be an expression of or give a tangible or visible form to (an idea, quality, or feeling).

              …

              synonyms: personify, incorporate, give human form/shape to, realize, manifest, express, concretize, symbolize, represent, epitomize, stand for, encapsulate, typify, exemplify…

              I shouldn’t feel contempt for people who turn education into a political football for money? Would you prefer a more “get tough on crime” manifestation of implacable cold rage?

              Come on, you’ve ignored and vilified teachers unions. Who else do you think is going to school your sorry excuse for an education philosophy?

    • Gabby 4.2
      28 January 2018 at 8:07 am

      #getoutofauckland

  5. Ed 5
    27 January 2018 at 8:45 am

    Terrible unscrupulous property managers.

    These are not rotten apples.
    The problem is systematic.
    Tinkering won’t do.
    Radical reform needed.
    And jail time.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/property/100807243/unregulated-property-managers-hold-keys-to-tenants-fortunes

    Dodgy criminal property developers.
    This country needs regulations.
    Cowboys are running amok.
    Killing trees.
    Polluting waterways.
    Treating people like vermin.
    This one got jail.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/100922015/controversial-auckland-property-developer-sentenced-to-jail-for-brutal-damage-to-native-trees
    More should.

    • James 5.1
      27 January 2018 at 9:36 am

      “The problem is systematic.
      Tinkering won’t do.”

      Any evidence to back that up. There are many people that are happy and have helpful professional property managers.

      There are a few bad eggs in every vertical.

    • James 5.2
      27 January 2018 at 9:45 am

      Whilst I agree that guy deserves jail (and more than he got).

      Most property developers operate in the rules – the fall out if they do not is too large).

      So why should more of them go to jail if they are not breaking laws Ed?

      Jailing people you are jealous of?

      • Graeme 5.2.1
        27 January 2018 at 10:57 am

        Na, don’t think he’s seeing it like that.

        It’s the mindset around the development community that a consent, and any conditions attached to that consent, are just the basis for further negotiation as the project goes forward. So the developer just does what they want and expects to sort it out retrospectively.

        It’s pretty much industry practice here, and you’re looked on as some sort of weirdo when you don’t “play the game”

        • james 5.2.1.1
          27 January 2018 at 11:05 am

          I’m not sure that is correct. The consent and conditions that are part of it are the basis of the approval.

          Without meeting the consent conditions 223’s and 224’s will not be issued.

          Start doing things that impact wetland etc and you can get in a whole lot of trouble and it takes a lot of time and money that developers just do not have to waste.

          Easier to play by the rules.

          • Graeme 5.2.1.1.1
            27 January 2018 at 11:46 am

            Pretty rare when there’s not some “negotiation” around the granting of compliance.

            There’s quite a difference between pushing it to the limit, and playing by the rules.

            It’s also how a lot of the professional occupations make their money. Advise on how much the limits can be pushed, and then write out the invoice to sort it out when it turns to shit.

          • Molly 5.2.1.1.2
            27 January 2018 at 1:15 pm

            “Easier to play by the rules.”

            Easier, yes, but not as profitable. And as Graeme mentions there is a whole industry that is set up to challenge the rules and get concessions or exceptions.

            Lack of consistent enforcement makes this a small gamble worth playing for larger profits if that is your priority.

            • savenz 5.2.1.1.2.1
              27 January 2018 at 2:32 pm

              When 99.9% of resource consents are approved at environment court, – why wouldn’t you be as greedy as possible? The NZ system is set up to reward greed of natural resources to anybody who wants to, from big and small corporations to big and small consents. If the rules on height for example is 15m then the developer will put in for 20m knowing if worst comes to worst it will come down to 15m and use that as a bargaining point on all the other issues that they also try to get more than, but in all likely hood they will get what they want as very expensive to challenge it in court. Meanwhile our country is turning into a deregulated toilet with that attitude.

              • Molly …
                27 January 2018 at 5:46 pm

                With you there savenz.

                Our planning seems to be stuck in the dark ages, and our enforcement is weak. Add to this, justifiable complaints about slow processes and costs and the public consensus to reduce redtape means that positive long-term change is unlikely.

      • tracey 5.2.2
        27 January 2018 at 3:14 pm

        One of the problems with leaky home cost recovery was the number of Developers who took profit and then closed companies to avoid future liability. Have seen no evidence that practice is less widespread today

        • Macro 5.2.2.1
          27 January 2018 at 4:03 pm

          ” Developers who took profit and then closed companies to avoid future liability. Have seen no evidence that practice is less widespread today”

          And with SLR and continuing developments on coastal sites – such practices will continue.

  6. Ed 6
    27 January 2018 at 8:56 am

    Can’t buy.
    Can’t rent.

    New Zealand is failing its citizens.
    In a basic human need.
    Mild reform won’t solve the problem.
    The total dismantling of the national economic system is needed.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/property/100861408/cant-buy-cant-rent-trapped-in-a-system-without-a-way-forward

    Grubby deals.
    The exploitation of human need.
    Greed and real estate agencies.
    New Zealand.
    Where there are no rules to protect the vulnerable from sharks.
    Roger Douglas.
    Should be tried for treason.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/property/100924851/rental-squeeze-sometimes-you-have-to-sweeten-that-deal

    • James 6.1
      27 January 2018 at 9:30 am

      And with the new rules labour want to bring in – the number of rentals will fall.

      So it’s only going to get worse for renters.

    • mary_a 6.2
      27 January 2018 at 8:18 pm

      Well said Ed (6). Agree with your sentiments in your post.

      One more thing …
      you say – “Roger Douglas.
      Should be tried for treason.” Absolutely he should!

      Be a good idea to also have John Key next to Douglas on the stand in court for his treachery as well … almost nine years of it! Two dirty devious knights of the realm (one also being a slimy groping hair fiddling pervert), standing side by side in the dock being tried for treason against the people of Aotearoa, for which a guilty verdict can be the only just and rational outcome! That would be absolute justice for those who have suffered immensely as the result of the ruthless inhumane policies of these two arse wipes!

  7. Whispering Kate 7
    27 January 2018 at 9:25 am

    Good on you Ed, telling it how it is.

  8. Incognito 8
    27 January 2018 at 10:16 am

    Are we again having to watch the usual couples dancing the Tango here on TS over this long and very hot weekend or may we enjoy a weekend off for a change? We could name it Dancing With The Trolls although it is not always very clear who’s leading whom here 😉

  9. red-blooded 9
    27 January 2018 at 12:08 pm

    Corin Dann has stepped down as political editor at TV One and will be taking on a full time role on Q+A. So, eyes open for who will be the new political editor…

  10. Molly 10
    27 January 2018 at 1:23 pm

    This seems like a bit of short-sighted self-promotion and ego on the part of RocketLabs:
    Astronomers enraged by huge man-made star that has ‘vandalised’ the sky

    IIRC, there was talk during Bush’s time of putting advertisements in the sky, which was promptly shut down – if it was indeed serious.

    This arbitrary addition – just because they can – seems arrogant.

    • weka 10.1
      27 January 2018 at 1:43 pm

      I’ve been surprised and heartened by the amount of criticism on twitter about it.

    • joe90 10.2
      27 January 2018 at 2:50 pm

      Beloved by Silicon Valley venture capitalists and the US aerospace industry and with a bog standard arms industry employment caveat courtesy of the US State Department, what’s not to love about RocketLab.

      /

      For security reasons background checks will be undertaken prior to any employment offers being made to an applicant. These checks will include nationality checks as it is a requirement of this position that you be eligible to access equipment and data regulated by the United States’ International Traffic in Arms Regulations. Under these Regulations, you may be ineligible for this role if you do not hold citizenship of Australia, Japan, New Zealand, Switzerland, the European Union or a country that is part of NATO, or if you hold ineligible dual citizenship or nationality. For more information on these Regulations, click here.

      http://www.rocketlabusa.com/careers/positions/general-applicants-auckland-new-zealand-2936214/

      https://www.nbr.co.nz/rocket-man

  11. Draco T Bastard 11
    27 January 2018 at 3:18 pm

    Video on how the US democracy has been taken over by the rich. It may have some parallels here.

    The question is: How does money influence who gets chosen to be our candidates?

    • Sam 11.1
      27 January 2018 at 3:25 pm

      Parallels? They fucken own shit loads of New Zealand, about 40% of the NZX is owned by banks, about 30% hedge funds and the rest pensions funds and professional traders. So people all earning above $250k of unearned capital gains. If only Garreth Morgan had of zipped it for like a couple mimits at the end of every interview we might have reformed all this.

      • alwyn 11.1.1
        27 January 2018 at 6:06 pm

        Can you please post some evidence for your numbers.
        I would be most interested in them, particularly the statement about Banks and Hedge Funds.

        • Sam 11.1.1.1
          27 January 2018 at 7:44 pm

          Sorry for the lengthy and divided up response.., but there are character limits to my personality and this has to be explained to people to help them understand the difference between real trade ideas & real risk versus valueless noise. It cant be explained properly in a few words / sentences.

          There are no overall shareholder brake down of the NZX that I’m aware of available to the public (for free) but I can give you some quick indicators. Mind you this won’t help you trade at all they’re just quick terminology that may help you to spot a few charlatans on your travels.

          – a retail trader trades in accounts less than $500k

          – Above retail traders are professional traders with institutional knowledge and institutional money (bank money, the top guys trade in about $400mln accounts with no less than 3 to a trading desk. With this kind of action you can literally print money in foreign currency)

          JP Morgan lost $143mln to one client in Equities trading last quarter. Same guy who runs JP Morgan (Jamie Dimon) apparently “did a U-turn” on Bitcoin $BTC last week. So please understand that reporting an accurate number of who owns what of the NZX is next to impossible. So I’ll use Sky City Groups 2016 earnings report as a measuring stick. On page 76 it lists there top 20 share holders totalling $465,288,322 or 70.82% of the company as follows-

          1. HSBC Nominees (New Zealand) Limited – NZCSD 

          2. JP Morgan Nominees Australia Limited 

          3. HSBC Nominees (New Zealand) Limited A/C State Street – NZCSD 

          4. Citibank Nominees (New Zealand) Limited – NZCSD 

          5. JP Morgan Chase Bank NA NZ Branch-Segregated Clients Acct – NZCSD 

          6. HSBC Custody Nominees (Australia) Limited 

          7. National Nominees New Zealand Limited – NZCSD 

          8. National Nominees Limited 

          9. RBC Investor Services Australia Nominees Pty Limited 

          10. Accident Compensation Corporation – NZCSD 

          11. BNP Paribas Noms Pty Limited 

          12. Citicorp Nominees Pty Limited 

          13. BNP Paribas Nominees (NZ) Limited – NZCSD 

          14. ANZ Custodial Services New Zealand Limited – NZCSD 

          15. UBS Nominees Pty Limited 

          16. Citicorp Nominees Pty Limited 

          17. HSBC Nominees A/C NZ Superannuation Fund Nominees Limited – NZCSD 

          18. ANZ Wholesale Australasian Share Fund – NZCSD 

          19. FNZ Custodians Limited 

          20. BNP Paribas Nominees (NZ) Limited – NZCSD 

          https://www.skycityentertainmentgroup.com/media/1440/2016-skycity-entertainment-group-annual-report.pdf

          And this is typical, if you go through earnings report of publicly listed companies on the NZX, retail brokerage accounts make up a fraction or less than 70% of the NZX.

          This is like broker’s signals; Broker:”I’m cautiously optimistic” Translate :

          If it goes up i will say ” i told you so.” / If it goes down i will say “i did say i was cautious”

    • Stuart Munro 11.2
      27 January 2018 at 6:30 pm

      Worth a whole article this.

  12. joe90 12
    27 January 2018 at 6:06 pm

    Burn!

    Jade Hameister
    13 January at 01:45 ·

    We spent this morning cleaning out our sleds to be ready to fly out to Union Glacier tomorrow morning (depending on weather). Then we skied over to the Ceremonial South Pole (probably the Pole that everyone knows as the only South Pole – the barbers Pole with the flags) and the actual Geographic South Pole (which moves around 10m each year), which is marked separately. In the afternoon we were given a tour of the Amundsen-Scott South Pole Station. It is seriously as close to what a Base on another planet would be like than anything else on the planet – a mini-town based around the scientific work of the National Science Foundation. Tonight (it never gets dark this time of year) I skied back to the Pole again… to take this photo for all those men who commented “Make me a sandwich” on my TEDX Talk. I made you a sandwich (ham & cheese), now ski 37 days and 600km to the South Pole and you can eat it xx#bravenotperfect #expandpossible #climatechange #jadesquest #thepolarhatrick #northpole #greenland #southpole #makemeasandwich #nationalgeographic #nationalgeographicapp @natgeo @natgeoau @australiangeographic

    https://www.facebook.com/jadehameister/photos/a.224825967879767.1073741829.207513589611005/524715937890767/?type=3

  13. eco maori 13
    27 January 2018 at 6:33 pm

    We are in Auckland helping my daughter for a couple of days she was so happy. All the mokos are keeping us busy. The sandflys here drove the same type of vehicle that that Rotorua lot drive but they act differently they still try and USE the same dumb ass tactics intimidation and following me around at least they are to busy following me to bother other people Ana to kai

  14. Ed 14
    27 January 2018 at 7:53 pm

    Great news.

    “People are starting to understand’: huge Invasion Day protest stuns Melbourne
    Activist Gary Foley tells a crowd of up to 60,000 that ‘if we keep mobilising these numbers, governments cannot ignore us’”

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/jan/26/huge-invasion-day-protest-melbourne-australia-day

  15. Ed 15
    27 January 2018 at 7:56 pm

    THe crash is coming.

    Trump’s tax cuts may be the spark that sets the reindeer dey forest alight.
    Debt levels at records heights.
    Many experts warning we are at edge of a precipice.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jan/26/imf-chief-warns-trumps-tax-cuts-could-destabilise-global-economy

  16. Ed 16
    27 January 2018 at 8:13 pm

    Weird weather, the Herald says.
    Rachel Stewart asks if we’re worried yet……

    “Not only was 2017 the hottest ocean year on record, the heat gain from the previous hottest ocean year (2015) was quite considerable. In all 15,100,000,000,000,000,000,000 Joules of heat energy were added by the world ocean from 2015 to 2017. By comparison, 4,184,000,000 Joules were produced by the Hiroshima bomb. The world ocean is now taking in a similar amount of heat every 3-5 seconds.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2018/jan/26/in-2017-the-oceans-were-by-far-the-hottest-ever-recorded

  17. eco maori 17
    28 January 2018 at 7:39 am

    We have set our daughter and new Moko granddaughter on a smove course up there lifes ladder. Just a little bit of help at the right time is enough to help her karma. We teach Our children to treat every one with respect. We also teach them that they can only trust a few people in one’s life. I can see the sandflys have been spinning there lies again its so easy to see that effect. I know the people that are helping spread those lies are contracted liers. The contracted liers try to play me to but no ECO Maori checks these idiots to.
    Ana to kai

The server will be getting hardware changes this evening starting at 10pm NZDT.
The site will be off line for some hours.