Open mike 29/07/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 29th, 2021 - 60 comments
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60 comments on “Open mike 29/07/2021 ”

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  1. tc 1
    29 July 2021 at 7:35 am

    Suscribe to Granny where Soper can tell you we're '…one covid case away from catastrophe..' and the Hosk wants ..'an apology..'

    The piece on Pharmac being fit for purpose by Matt Nippert could be worthy however opinions are not journalism which is the bulk of what granny pushes as 'news'.

    Another day of barking opinions from Grannys stable of keyboard warriors. In their own media bubble being owned and tiresome all at once.

    • Jimmy 1.1
      29 July 2021 at 7:50 am

      I assume you are talking about the NZ Herald when you say "Granny". I have to agree, there is very little worth while reading in there these days, and like you say, it's mostly opinion pieces not news. I find Stuff just as bad as well.

    • Barfly 1.2
      29 July 2021 at 7:59 am

      I'm not entirely sure why but I have lost my sense of humour towards the Herald and it's right wing shills, they seem to me to be Trumpian in their dishonesty and malice. I hope that they suffer sufficient ill fortune, pain and misery to have an epiphany related to their abysmal conduct and actions.

      • Janice 1.2.1
        29 July 2021 at 8:41 am

        It must be ratings time as I have just been offered (again) a 4 week free subscription to both online and delivered Herald. I won’t bother thank you.

        • woodart 1.2.1.1
          29 July 2021 at 10:56 am

          I think their business plan is looking bad . numbers of paid subscribers,(hard copy and web) probably arent that great. why pay for crappy opinion pieces when stuff is free? expect granny to gradually back away from paywall as it repells more than it attracts. their advertisers will NOT be happy.

      • Patricia Bremner 1.2.2
        29 July 2021 at 2:38 pm

        devil +

    • Muttonbird 1.3
      29 July 2021 at 8:51 am

      Mr. Stupidity-Allan says:

      A request for a Covid patient to be airlifted to Auckland's Middlemore Hospital on Tuesday, thought to be that of a World Health Organisation official, was turned down with hospitals in the city arguing they didn't have the capacity.

      More likely, didn't want to have the capacity to deal with the risk the patient would pose to this poorly vaccinated country.

      Clearly NZ didn't want to be seen airlifting officials for specialist treatment over ordinary Fijian people. Imagine the precedent!

      A decent journalist might have at least suggested it.

      • Muttonbird 1.3.1
        29 July 2021 at 11:20 am

        News just in: Fiji national now being transported to NZ for treatment.

        Pacific health leader Dr Collin Tukuitonga said he understood that the Covid patient has the highly dangerous Delta variant of the virus.

        If New Zealand really wanted to help, more medical staff should be sent to Fiji to help train and support those on the ground dealing with the situation there – not bringing the patient to New Zealand.

        "We're trying to keep the risk out. We can't totally predict what the Delta variant will do. I think it's unacceptable."

        The decision to bring the person to New Zealand for treatment also now sets a precedent.

        "I understand he is a Fijian national…why is he being singled out over the many other equally deserving people there?

        "How do we then decide who to accept who to take and who not to take?"

        Called it. Local Pacific health leader not happy. Can't imagine the people of Fiji are either.

        Still, Mr Stupidity-Allan got his way…

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-positive-patient-from-fiji-being-allowed-into-new-zealand-for-hospital-care/V7IAEC6IJ3DUW6NPJM7E7C5BGE/

        • Janet 1.3.1.1
          29 July 2021 at 12:05 pm

          https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-positive-patient-from-fiji-being-allowed-into-new-zealand-for-hospital-care/V7IAEC6IJ3DUW6NPJM7E7C5BGE/

          "I understand he is a Fijian national working for the World Health Organisation. Why is he being singled out over the many other equally deserving people there?

          Someone who has chosen to work for WHO has pre- accepted the conditions and situations he may find himself in.

          It is not New Zealand’s role to bail out here. Better to have sent the equipment needed there.

          UNBELIEVABLE given the fact that NZ has not vaccinated its own yet.

        • Treetop 1.3.1.2
          29 July 2021 at 1:24 pm

          I have seen footage of the conditions in Fiji's main hospital. I am not surprised that a person needs to be transported to another country for treatment.

          Looking to the future on having the medical technology and clinicians to avoid a person being transported is important.

          Not likely to happen but needs to happen.

    • Pete 1.4
      29 July 2021 at 9:18 am

      The headline of the day is the Hosking one about the Government owing us an apology for the vaccine "mess." A useless prick writing about useful pricks?

      • Muttonbird 1.4.1
        29 July 2021 at 10:36 am

        The RWNJs are complaining about 16,000 people being vaccinated in South Auckland this weekend.

        Totally bizarre.

      • AB 1.4.2
        29 July 2021 at 12:39 pm

        Just had my first shot. Smooth operation and very good staff in a massive space vacated by The Warehouse a few months back. The large space works well – separate processing areas and walkways. Clear communication from the staff. People doing useful work – the opposite of Hosking.

        • woodart 1.4.2.1
          29 July 2021 at 1:31 pm

          had my first shot in levin on tuesday, no stress, no kick in the face or whatever overused phrase badly trained scribes resort to.

      • Hongi Ika 1.4.3
        29 July 2021 at 1:13 pm

        Is he still relevant ?

        Serious Question. A ex National Party Shrill.

  2. Ad 2
    29 July 2021 at 7:55 am

    I'm working my way through the Michael Cullen autobiography "Labour Saving".

    More policy focused than usual, it shows the massive moves they made in 3 terms.

    I'd recommend it.

  3. cricklewood 3
    29 July 2021 at 8:03 am

    I thought we'd figured out selling off core services wasn't a good idea… Lets send more ratepayer money into offshore pockets and I'll bet as soon as the deal is done the squeeze will go on the staff to maximize profits…

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckland-council-planning-to-privatise-business-unit-but-guarantees-future-jobs-for-320-staff/YROQNQRGALPXSXIKF7O5XXPPCM/

  4. Jimmy 4
    29 July 2021 at 8:10 am

    Will be interesting to see what comes out of this study in to the duopoly of the grocery market. I wouldn't hold your breath for cheaper prices or much to happen at all. After the inquiry in to the petrol prices and being told we are paying too much for petrol, we are now paying even more for petrol, so cant see the supermarkets changing too much.

    Commerce Commission supermarket competition inquiry: Draft findings released today – NZ Herald

    • cricklewood 4.1
      29 July 2021 at 8:16 am

      I suspect the Supermarkets will get hit with a big stick re treatment of suppliers given they have been hammering them to increase profit margins. But that won't end in cheaper prices for the consumer.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/125882108/new-world-store-owner-spoke-of-trying-to-break-people-says-suppliers-body

      • Jimmy 4.1.1
        29 July 2021 at 8:44 am

        My old company used to sell to both Foodstuffs and Woolworths Australia (Countdown) chains. They are both very hard negotiators and if you want to be on their shelves, you must play by their rules which are very demanding (rebates, discounts, advertising etc). They were far harder to deal with than the likes of The Warehouse and other customers.

    • tc 4.2
      29 July 2021 at 8:45 am

      They created the duopoly and locked out Aldi, Sainsburys and others looking to enter at that time.

      A report from them is bus ticket fodder IMO as they've effectively made NZ a much less competitive market in many areas.

      • alwyn 4.2.1
        29 July 2021 at 10:32 am

        "locked out Aldi, Sainsburys and others".

        When did this happen and how did they do it? Can you provide some links that tell this story?

      • RedLogix 4.2.2
        29 July 2021 at 11:22 am

        I have some idea of ALDI's business model; it relies on two aspects.

        One is a hyper efficient logistics model, a slimmed down core food and grocery line and then an eclectic selection of 'middle aisle' goods they rotate around all their stores very rapidly. It's an interesting mix of predictable and novel that makes for an efficient and pleasant shopping experience.

        All of their stores follow a similar layout and styling and are much smaller than the big box shops of the duopoly. You can easily get around to filling a trolley in 10min if you stay focused. And the cost of that trolley will be under $200, compared to not much change out of $300 for the same thing elsewhere. (Incidentally it's surprising how many of their line items are NZ sourced.)

        The downside for this model is that it requires a lot of shops to be efficient. A regional city like Ballarat of 110,000 people had 5 of them last I was there. They build them very fast and efficiently, the one I watched went from dirt to open day in around 5 months.

        I can well imagine however ALDI's management looking at NZ and realising that everything about the place is stacked against them. A long skinny country that reduces the efficiency of their logistics model, and high land and building costs that impact heavily on their building side. Plus they can rely on the established duopoly to pull any lever they can to make life hard for them to get established.

        That article quotes several times that "ALDIs is the one everybody wants in NZ" – sadly unless the govt can find a way to make it possible it isn't going to happen soon.

      • Hongi Ika 4.2.3
        29 July 2021 at 1:15 pm

        Commerce Commission created this mess, obviously some serious backhanders were paid, as the NZ Consumers have been well and truly shafted.

    • miravox 4.3
      29 July 2021 at 9:09 am

      Cheaper prices as such shouldn't be the aim. Fairer prices should – fairer to the consumer and to the producer and less super-profits for the supermarkets.

      I doubt more competition will help producers and in the end, if producers cannot thrive by producing stuff in environmentally and socially sustainable ways that harms us all.

    • vto 4.4
      29 July 2021 at 9:10 am

      simply legislate that no one group can hold more than 25% of the market.

      force them to sell the part of each group which exceeds that 25% mark.

      free market will sort that out…..

      • alwyn 4.4.1
        29 July 2021 at 10:38 am

        Perhaps we could do this with the Power companies. Demand that the Government sell all their shares in all but one power supplier?

        And we could split up Air New Zealand and get rid of the Government controlled monopoly?

        I find these stories being run in the Herald and Stuff to be rather a joke. Didn't these organisations try and combine a little while ago so that they could have a monopoly on printed news?

        • woodart 4.4.1.1
          29 July 2021 at 1:45 pm

          you have a point about the media, but whataboutism is a very poor way to debate the subject . you could have, should have, mentioned the short term attempt by the warehouse to get into the supermarket biz, and how quickly that was bought by one of the big two . you also should have mentioned the fact that the free market is a myth , especially in small societies, as even blind freddie can see that there are very limited competitors in all the big tick businesses, food,media,insurance,energy, telecom,etc.dig into the ownership of most bigname comps and its interesting-disappointing to see how many are owned by two-three companies. if, and its a big IF ,we get another competitor in the supermarket biz in nz, expect it to be quickly bought out by one of the big two.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 4.5
      29 July 2021 at 3:21 pm

      My preferred solution – which I doubt is likely in neoliberal NZ – is for the government to start a Cooperative supermarket chain. Owned by the employees and consumers, such chains are not uncommon internationally, e.g. in Japan , USA and Europe. The hard part is the initial capital and organisation – that is where the government could help.

      • Graeme 4.5.1
        29 July 2021 at 5:57 pm

        Already exists with Farmlands. Mainly farm supplies, but a small selection of grocery items. They could expand to full supermarket or use their knowledge to set up a similar organisation doing the supermarket thing.

        Good idea though, I’m a Farmlands member and would be into a similar thing for general groceries.

  5. Jenny how to get there 5
    29 July 2021 at 9:37 am

    Aroha and respect to the Prime Minister for having the courage and decency to agree to be seen getting publicly vaccinated on camera yesterday.
    (On a personal note a good friend of mine who was vaccine hesitant, said she got great comfort in seeing the Prime Minister get her shot and has now booked to get hers).

    It is my hope, that soon the Prime MInister will be able to announce to the country and the world, that not just the ruling party, but the whole of New Zealand parliament are fully vaccinated.

    ….inside a hospital grappling with Delta and vaccine hesitancy

    Oliver Laughland in Memphis and Jessica Glenzain in New York

    Sat 24 Jul 2021 16.45 BST

    ….the Delta variant now tearing its way through unvaccinated Americans and inoculation rates plateauing in Tennessee amid a dangerous conservative political backlash against vaccines……..

    …..Unpicking the forces behind vaccine hesitancy is complex and multifaceted; from pervasive disinformation online, to skepticism tied to systemic medical failures and historic abuse on American communities of color.

    ……..the political situation in Tennessee has undoubtedly exacerbated the issue and left many beleaguered healthcare workers frustrated and perplexed. Tennessee’s Republican governor, Bill Lee, received his vaccine earlier in the year, but did not do so in public, mirroring a vaccine dog whistle initiated by Donald Trump.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/24/tennessee-coronavirus-covid-delta-variant-cases-vaccines?

    The political polarisation over vaccination may not be as extreme in this country as it is in the US.

    But a recent Colmar Brunton poll on vaccine hesitancy, listed those groups with high support for getting the covid vaccine. Labour Party members made the list with 80% support. The Colmar Brunton poll did not list the level of support for getting the covid vaccine by National Party members. So we don’t know what National Party members support for getting the vaccine is. But we do know that it was too low to be on the Colmar Brunton list for high support.

    Colmar Brunton

    The groups of voters who are more likely than average (76%) to say they would definitely or probably get
    vaccinated include:
    ▪ Those aged 70+ (90%)
    ▪ Males aged 55+ (88%)
    ▪ Those with an annual household income of between $100,001 and $150,000 (83%)
    ▪ New Zealand Europeans (80%)
    ▪ Labour party supporters (80%).
    Those groups of voters who are more likely than average (17%) to say they would definitely not or probably
    not get vaccinated include:
    ▪ Those living in Gisborne or the Hawke’s Bay (30%)
    ▪ Māori (26%)

    While a large percentage of those who were against getting the vaccine were worried about side effecfs more were against getting the vaccine because they didn't think it was necessary 55%

    https://static.colmarbrunton.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/9-13-March-2021_1-NEWS-Colmar-Brunton-Poll-report.pdf

    The Colmar poll is interesting, in that it revealed that more than half of those opposed to getting the vaccine thought it wasn't necessary, 55%. (the same viewpoint of covid-19 deniers).

    The big stand out of those who would definitely not the get the vaccine are Maori 26%. This may somewhat mirror the bad experience for Maori from the health system, that American communities of color report. This figure may also be a result of the influence of covid deniers like Billy Tekahika who has a following among Maori.

    Having an independant Maori Party in parliament, if both Maori Party MPs, alongside the rest of parliament, get the vaccine and publicly declare it, it might go some way to overcoming this hesitancy amongst Maori.

    The same for the National Party, if the National Party MPs, publicly declare that they have all been vaccinated it might go some way to overcoming vaccine hesitancy among conservatives.

    Ashley Blomfield say he hopes for 90% vaccination coverage by the end of the year.

    If achieved this would be a world first for a medium sized country. Possibly putting us on track for achieving herd immunity. Another world first.

    Love is but a song we sing.

    Fear is the way we die.

    We can make the mountains ring, or make the angels cry…..

    …..So come on people now get together….

    • Jenny how to get there 5.1
      29 July 2021 at 4:37 pm

      Meanwhile In America

      ……Republican areas where the refusal to take a safe, free, effective vaccine has allowed the Delta variant to catch fire and thwarted a US victory over the pandemic that was almost within reach.

      …..House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, a California Republican, said mask guidance rooted in science that shows Delta's deadly spread was not actually "based on science" and accused liberals of wanting to live in a "perpetual pandemic state."

      Of course, if everyone in the House were vaccinated, masks might not be needed. But more than 90 Republican members have refused to reveal their status, presumably because if they have had the shots, it might clash with their desire to cast doubt on anti-Covid measures to please their voters.

      https://edition.cnn.com/2021/07/28/world/meanwhile-in-america-july-29-intl/index.html

      To demonstrate that we are better than this, our government need to reach across the aisle to our opponents.

      If all the parliamentarians that can get vaccinated agreed and got vaccinated, and the Prime Miniser was able to announce this fact to the country and the world, this might be the sort of united lead needed to overcome the vaccine hestitancy that may "thwart" the victory over the virus that is in reach here.

      It is my opinion that to build public trust in our public institutions, politics, (like justice), not only needs to be done it needs to be seen to be done.

      If our government can form a grand coalition in times of war, My hope is that our government and loyal opposition* can do the same again andcan get their heads together and agree to publicly form a united front around getting vaccinated. In affect to agree to publicly speak with one voice on this one issue, not just in words but in deeds.

      *Loyal opposition is one of democracy’s grandest terms. Once used to shield the party out of power from accusations of treason, it now describes the institutionalization of opposition, most famously Great Britain’s elevation of the minority party leadership to a shadow cabinet. Termed the “greatest contribution of the nineteenth century to the art of government,”…..

      https://www.yalelawjournal.org/essay/the-loyal-opposition

  6. Pete 6
    29 July 2021 at 9:47 am

    The Herald online has an article about anti-vaccine protestors handing out flyers outside schools. Nothing illegal is going on, the people are protesting on public property. The Herald says. "… distributing vaccine misinformation to students."

    Why have the faces of those in the protest been pixelated? A person is holding sign saying "Questioning vaccine safety doesn't make you anti-vaxxer."

    To use that thinking,"Clearly depicting protestors outside a school doesn't make you anti anti-vaccine protestors or their message, it makes you a reporter of facts."

    • Rosemary McDonald 6.1
      29 July 2021 at 11:39 am

      The Herald article about the flyer handouterers, and the earlier one heralding the event at the Whanganui school targeting children and their whanau.

      In spite of the hype…

      Covid-19 vaccines for children: hypothetical benefits to adults do not outweigh risks to children

      Given this low incidence, the fact that covid-19 is generally asymptomatic or mild in children, and the high rate of adverse events in those vaccinated (e.g. in Pfizer’s trial of 12-15 year olds, 3 in 4 kids had fatigue and headaches, around half had chills and muscle pain, and around 1 in 4 to 5 had a fever and joint pain), a comparison of quality-adjusted life-years in the trial would very much favour the placebo group.

      The rush to give this novel and experimental 'vaccine' to school children is bordering on the obscene. What kind of society is happy to risk the future health of their youth?

      It is just over a year since the first trials in adults commenced for the Pfizer jab, and unfortunately any long term effects for those in the vaccine groups cannot be properly monitored because of the problematic un-blinding of the study group and the offering of the vaccine to the placebo group.

      Loss of data

      Diana Zuckerman, president of the National Center for Health Research, told The BMJ that the FDA could have demanded that companies use the blinded crossover design for them to win full approval for their vaccines. She said that failure to do that meant the loss of future reliable data, which is especially concerning given that preliminary data are insufficient to determine efficacy.

      “I’m especially concerned that Pfizer’s vaccine trials included only five people aged 75 and older who were diagnosed with covid-19, with an unspecified number of those defined by Pfizer as severe cases,” she said. “That makes it impossible to determine how effective the vaccine is for frail elderly patients.”

      Although the FDA has granted the vaccines emergency use authorisation, to get full licence approval two years of follow-up data are needed. The data are now likely to be scanty and less reliable given that the trials are effectively being unblinded.

      Goodman wants all companies to be held to the same standard and says they should not be allowed to make up their own rules about unblinding. He told The BMJ that, while he was “very optimistic” about the vaccines, “blowing up the trials” by allowing unblinding “will set a de facto standard for all vaccine trials to come.” And that, he said, “is dangerous.”

  7. David 7
    29 July 2021 at 11:22 am

    Wave power generation looks a very promising technology. I know there has been some talk previously about tidal generation in NZ where cost is raised as the main barrier. Also generation at 2MW per unit in the link below is much less than our hydro dams. However, as pointed out in the video link the tide is entirely predictable. No need to worry about low rainfall, no wind or not enough sun.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-57991442

  8. Muttonbird 8
    29 July 2021 at 11:37 am

    Doctor quits NZ after a year because…he couldn't buy a house.

    "They weren't going to get an invitation to lodge an expression of interest and so they weren't going to get their residency, which meant they couldn't buy a house."

    – Ōtaki Medical Centre chief executive Kiwa Raureti

    Well, boohoo. Millions of Kiwis can't buy a house. Join the club which rents while you wait, Dr Richards.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-young-regional-gp-with-1300-patients-leaves-new-zealand-following-residency-limbo/PB7I2SWONUF6ZHOJUZF7HYQLKQ/

    • David 8.1
      29 July 2021 at 11:43 am

      If you read the whole story I think you’ll find the key message concerns residency limbo and no clear direction from the relevant minister where this is heading.

      Small town NZ loses a doctor and the surgery has closed its books to new patients. You may be ok with that. I’m not.

      • Muttonbird 8.1.1
        29 July 2021 at 12:46 pm

        I read the whole story. That was my take away. Get over it.

        • Sabine 8.1.1.1
          29 July 2021 at 5:07 pm

          No he can't buy a house, because he can not get a permanent residency.

          Otaki lost a skilled physician because Immigration simply failed him. NO ifs and buts about it.

          But then, surely we can find some Kiwi to do that, right? Right? Plenty of Kiwi doctors happy to go live rural? right? We just need to pay them more? Lol. And they can buy a house, right?

          From the link above:
          ” A regional medical practice has been forced to close its doors to new patients due to the loss of a beloved GP, who left New Zealand after a year in limbo in the residency queue.

          Due to Covid’s impact on the immigration office, the Government suspended Expressions of Interest (EOI) selections for the skilled migrant category (SMC) in 2020.

          Ōtaki GP Dr Harding Richards, originally from Wales, left New Zealand last month, while waiting for the invitation to lodge an Expression of Interest.”

          nah, its all good. Who needs doctors anyways, don’t these rural people know that they should live in towns if they want doctors, or at least be able to go to Emergency department if they need a doctor.

          • Muttonbird 8.1.1.1.1
            29 July 2021 at 8:35 pm

            Meh. He didn't stick around for long. He seems like a mercenary for hire to be honest. How do we know he just didn't like New Zealand? He did ditch us at the earliest opportunity.

      • Molly 8.1.2
        29 July 2021 at 5:59 pm

        Neither am I.

        INZ dropped the ball here, to the detriment of that doctor, his family and the Ōtaki community.

    • Treetop 8.2
      29 July 2021 at 6:26 pm

      This is not good for the health consumers who use the medical centre, they would have built up trust with the GP.

      Immigration NZ could have done more. A category for rural GPs which works.

      • Muttonbird 8.2.1
        29 July 2021 at 9:07 pm

        Built up trust? He's only been there a year, now he's off to another adventure.

        Next!

  9. Forget now 9
    29 July 2021 at 11:59 am

    So the WiSpa flashpoint might be sparking again on Saturday in LA (though it'll be next month before the news reaches us in Aotearoa), hopefully not though; with the increasing COVID rates in LA. But if the transphobes are going to be there, so will counter-protestors, and the police. Still no charges for knife attacks in the first protest (July 3rd), despite; police presence, multiple witnesses, and video. LAPD have been a bit evasive about the necessariness of their force (2nd protest – July 17th), but that's hardly news:

    According to Chief Moore, officer’s from the LAPD Rampart Division had arrested 41 people, 40 individuals who were cited for failure to disperse after an unlawful assembly was declared and one for possession of illegal or prohibited items at a protest. He said LAPD officers recorded firing projectiles 10 times and striking people with batons nine times according to body cam footage.

    Multiple videos were shared on social media that showed confrontations with the LAPD, several protestors depicted were allegedly injured by officers and on the videos claimed that they posed no threat.

    The Chief told the Board of Commissioners his department would investigate all allegations of misconduct, he emphasized that those videos posted on social media only showed certain perspectives and alleged that activists were “essentially shopping clips and snippets” online that distort facts.

    https://www.losangelesblade.com/2021/07/20/lapd-under-scrutiny-for-excessive-force-in-wi-spa-confrontation/

    The massive media attention resulted in two weekends of chaotic rallies in LA this month, in which anti-trans and trans-rights protesters fought in the streets, and women carrying “protect female spaces” signs paraded alongside members of the far-right Proud Boys. Trans counter-protesters and their supporters described being Maced, stabbed and chased by rightwing demonstrators, as well as injured by police…

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/28/anti-trans-video-los-angeles-protest-wi-spa

    Over the last week, California has reported an average of nearly 7,400 new coronavirus cases a day — roughly eight times the rate from four weeks ago

    https://ktla.com/news/california/our-projections-are-sobering-california-considers-new-measures-amid-covid-surge/

    • Molly 9.1
      29 July 2021 at 12:26 pm

      I've just read the long Guardian article, and it seems apparent to me that the wording is very careful…

      Misinformation about Wi Spa, a Korean spa in Los Angeles, quickly spread around the world. Since then, trans women in LA have faced violence and online abuse

      On 24 June, a woman claimed on Instagram that a Korean spa in Los Angeles had allowed a “man” to expose himself to women and girls in the women’s section.

      IF you believe that self-ID as a woman is all that is necessary, then you can then be reassured that a 'man' was not present. It can also be true that someone exposed their body complete with male genitalia in the changing room. Nowhere in the article does it state this is a fabrication.

      We are back in the strange world of (mis)appropriation of existing language to cry discrimination.

      It also seems as if it is the TA responses that generate pushback. There are levers being pulled without regard for others. including the safety of trans people.

      • Forget now 9.1.1
        29 July 2021 at 1:05 pm

        The article is indeed very careful not to allege that Cubana Angel was flat out lying; Molly. Though whilst reading, you must have seen this bit which certainly indicates the possibility, and more importantly that the spa was operating legally even if the undemonstrated presence was fact. But any protest this weekend is more likely to be using that as pretext, rather than reason anymore.

        It is unclear whether a trans woman was actually present.

        There was no footage of anyone inside the changing room and no other witnesses have since spoken out to corroborate the account. A local LGBTQ+ paper reported that a spa employee said there were no trans patrons with appointments that day, leading some to question whether the incident was staged. An LA police department (LAPD) spokesperson initially told the Guardian in early July that the police were not investigating the spa incident because “there was no crime reported”. On 26 July, after news outlets had highlighted questions about the initial allegations the month before, LAPD said the department was now investigating “a report of an indecent exposure at a spa” on 23 June.

        In California, businesses have long been required to let trans patrons use facilities that match their gender. The spa, where customers are often naked, has not confirmed whether a trans customer was present, and has repeatedly defended its policies as simply in compliance with California’s non-discrimination law.

        It is the slow motion train-wreck of it all that I find fascinating. Apparently the 10th and 24th were no shows for transphobes. It just seems to have more of a fortnightly rhythm for some reason. But even if no one gets bludgeoned to death this time, the Californian infection rates seem likely to give the next occurrence a body count.

        • Molly 9.1.1.1
          29 July 2021 at 1:25 pm

          From your response.

          "It is unclear whether a trans woman was actually present.

          There was no footage of anyone inside the changing room and no other witnesses have since spoken out to corroborate the account. '

          and… "In California, businesses have long been required to let trans patrons use facilities that match their gender."

          So…

          1. Despite accusations to the contrary, she may have been accurate with her account of someone with male genitalia exposing themselves in the changing rooms.
          2. That accuracy cannot be corroborated by camera footage from within the changing rooms (which I thought was illegal, but hey, no evidence!)
          3. People who identify as female – with male genitalia are legally entitiled to use female changing rooms anyway. So even if she is telling the truth, its legal, so what's the problem?

          This kind of shifting thinking allows for a myriad number of justifications for avoiding a conversation about the impact on women and children who are used to having changing and toilet facilities separate to those with male genitalia, and the consequent alarm and vulnerability they feel when that expectation is not met.

          Women are being asked to adjust immediately, without consultation or even being permitted a voice, in this change which may not seem radical to some, but is to many women. Women are being asked to relinquish their safe spaces without regard for why they are there in the first place.

          "But even if no one gets bludgeoned to death this time, the Californian infection rates seem likely to give the next occurrence a body count."

          The Wi Spa incident that I saw, shows a woman making a complaint to reception about someone exposing a penis in a women's changing room. She did not ask for violence, she asked that they remove that person from that space.

          I didn't see any incitement to violence in that original recording. The violence that occurs after the situation is ramped up cannot be laid at her door.

          Resulting conflicts seem to be deliberately escalated by bad actors on both sides of the debate. This is easier to do, when no discussion is allowed on the topic, and people are shut down from raising their concerns.

          • Sabine 9.1.1.1.1
            29 July 2021 at 5:22 pm

            And that is it, is it not, the issue with 'any man being able to identify as female' and thus gain access to spaces that previously had been of limits to men. It is no good for biological women and trans women.

            I can see this being such a bad thing for any women from a conservative background, be that muslima, jewish orthodox, christian orthodox (all of the flavours) etc, or even just women who have experienced trauma and who will now have another place that they won't go to.

            But maybe that is the expected and requested result. Make biological women stay home again.

            • Molly 9.1.1.1.1.1
              29 July 2021 at 5:48 pm

              It surprises me that those championing the inclusion of self-identified females into women's spaces use the criticism that women are treating such people as if they are predators by denying them that space.

              Personally, I probably not even notice transitioned transwomen into that space, and would hope they would feel comfortable there, for it would not cause distress to any of the other users of that space, including – as you mention, those women whose culture or beliefs prohibit them from sharing space with biological males.

              However, the conflation of self-id biologically male intact people being permitted to enter and use those spaces is a different story.

              Apart from the aforementioned issues regarding privacy and culture, this inclusion does actually provides a mechanism for those that may wish to cause harm – whether anyone likes it or not. The offence then has to occur before the complaint can be laid, when previously those spaces where women were vulnerable and in states of undress were not even able to be accessed before self-id. We are going backwards in terms of protection of women.

              If those who disagree think this is unlikely, I am sure that there are those who can see the possibilities for harassment under the self-id laws and will play it out. The cost of this will be borne by women, once again.

              • Sabine …
                29 July 2021 at 6:11 pm

                It surprises me that those championing the inclusion of self-identified females into women's spaces use the criticism that women are treating such people as if they are predators by denying them that space.

                Why does it surprise you? these are the same people that call a lesbian or a straight guy who does not want a relationship or a quicky with a transwomen a transphobe. They call gay men who do not want a relationship with a transman a transphobe.

                They just want access to the spaces, and once that is gained they have won. Thus we go from single sex spaces to mixed only spaces, and the more you look the less you will find women in these spaces. Biological and transwomen. I left a comment on the 'Sex we need to talk thread' about some transmen and their observations. You might enjoy the read, and fwiw, i tend to agree with them. The issue never was and never will be Transwomen who present as female. The issue is with the male that don't present as women, don't want to present as women, but who want access to females spaces. They simply sign a paper, and thus voila, they can now do as they please when they please and until some poor women, child, or t trans person gets harmed nothing will be done, in fact our concerns will be poo poo'ed but then what else is new in the world? Womens concerns have been poo poo'ed since time keeping began.

  10. joe90 10
    29 July 2021 at 2:05 pm

    A week in a backpackers swanning about in central Brisbane? Not going to end well.

    Queensland has recorded one new case of COVID-19 in a person in hotel quarantine, as genome sequencing confirms a man in a Brisbane backpacker hostel acquired

    Health Minister Yvette D'Ath said the sequencing confirmed the man had the Alpha variant and did not contract COVID-19 while in hotel quarantine.

    […]

    Chief Health Officer Jeannette Young said further contact tracing was underway after it was discovered the infected traveller had flown to Western Australia after completing quarantine in Queensland.

    "When he got out of hotel quarantine here in Brisbane, he'd done his 14 days and has three negative tests, he then on-travelled to Western Australia," Dr Young said.

    "They turned him around, they put him in a hotel for two days until there was a suitable flight, and then he was placed on that flight and returned to Queensland."

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-29/queensland-coronavirus-cases-update-covid/100331784

  11. RobbieWgtn 11
    29 July 2021 at 4:10 pm

    Sir Bob Jones on why he's taken a $10,000 bet that Labour will lose the next election

    WHY THE GOVERNMENT WILL FALL IN 2023 | No Punches Pulled

    • Ad 11.1
      29 July 2021 at 4:53 pm

      He reads political inevitability like Marx or Castells or some other loony long wave proponent.

      The local government elections next year will have some indicators.

      [removed spurious letter from e-mail address]