Open mike 30/01/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 30th, 2022 - 221 comments
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221 comments on “Open mike 30/01/2022 ”

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  1. Dennis Frank 1
    30 January 2022 at 6:23 am

    Someone in our public service is trying to undermine Labour – using the MIQ strategy.

    The latest MIQ battle to make headlines – pregnant Kiwi journalist Charlotte Bellis finding refuge in Afghanistan thanks to the Taliban – again shows how inhumane the system is, Act leader David Seymour says. "Normally I joke about the New Zealand Government being less humane than the Taliban, but sadly in this case it's true.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-stranded-pregnant-journalist-charlotte-bellis-miq-situation-unsurprising-mp/OI7SWHYPC6U6OTO6HZ7SZDZUF4/

    Little hitlers in the bureaucracy again. Probably male, since the victim of their arbitrary decision-making is female. Defenders of the patriarchy.

    "There's no rhyme nor reason. Often people mysteriously get a spot if enough drama is made, and I've noticed the profile of a person can have an effect, too."

    Make it up as you go along. The ideal way to govern! Bureaucrats really get off on having total control. The one controlling the outcome for Charlotte is obviously in the running for a lifetime achievement award.

    "I think most New Zealanders reading the story would say it's a no-brainer for her to be offered a [MIQ spot] … that's precisely why the emergency [MIQ] allocation exists."

    But David, having no brains is how you get recruited into the public service in the first place. Perpetuating neocolonialism requires obedient automatons.

    Will a minister take charge of the situation? Unlikely. For any Labour minister to spot subversion in the first place would be a miracle, and then brainwashing them to make them feel impotent is part of the culture of governance. Any natural problem-solver would get marginalised real fast. So I reckon the apparatchik will get the lifetime award for making Labour seem worse than the Taliban.

    [here’s what Hipkins and the person running MiQ actually said. Putting this up in bold because we’re in a global crisis, this is a serious issue, and we should be looking at the whole picture. – weka]

    Covid Response Minister Chris Hipkins responds:
    A senior National Party MP contacted me on Wednesday with information about this case and the circumstances about their declined application, which appeared at first sight to warrant further explanation.

    My office passed this information onto officials to check whether the proper process was followed.

    I’m unable to provide any further comment on MIQ at this stage as a court case against MIQ is being prepared and expected to be heard soon.”

    Head of MIQ Chris Bunny responds:

    Charlotte Bellis emergency allocation case

    In the case of Charlotte Bellis, she applied for an emergency allocation MIQ voucher on Monday 24 January. The date she requested (27 February) was not within the 14 day window required for an emergency allocation (the travel must be time-critical). She received a response deactivating the application and inviting her to reapply within the 14 day window, and to contact MIQ if she intended to change her flights to return to New Zealand earlier. We have not received any subsequent confirmation that Ms Bellis intends to bring her flights forward.

    We have a team of people who manage emergency allocation requests and the team keep a close eye on applications, and Charlotte’s location of Afghanistan came to their attention. Thirty minutes after the initial decline email, they reached out to inform her that if she intended to change her flights to an earlier return date, that more supporting information would be required to process a subsequent application and they highlighted the evidence requirements. This is not uncommon and is an example of the team being helpful to New Zealanders who are in distressing situations.

    It is not uncommon for people who have been declined an emergency allocation to reach out to a Member of Parliament. There are a lot of people in really difficult situations around the world. When anyone brings individual cases to our attention, we look into the case and the process that was followed. This is standard practice. There is also a process in place for people to seek reviews of their own applications.

    All applications for emergency allocations of an MIQ voucher are assessed case-by-case, there is no preferential treatment – it is a fair and consistent process.

    MBIE regularly evaluates its Emergency Allocations criteria and will continue to do so.

    Emergency allocations process in MIQ

    New Zealand’s a small country—we’ll all know people who have struggled to return home.

    We want every New Zealander who’s currently abroad who wants to come home to be able to do so. However, we want them to come home to a safe New Zealand, in a safe way. Over the last two years our managed isolation system has been what has kept New Zealanders safe.

    MIQ has been a success for New Zealand, helping to safely bring more than 218,000 people here in the midst of a global pandemic, as well as care for over 3600 community cases.

    Every month in managed isolation we accommodate the equivalent of a small New Zealand town – around 12,600 people in 9000 rooms per 28 days.

    There is finite capacity within the MIQ system though, and that’s for good reason – Covid-19 is still spreading around the world, and we need to keep New Zealand safe. We constantly have to strike a balance between bringing people into New Zealand and protecting us all from Covid entering the community.

    We are seeing a large increase of Omicron cases at the border which means more rooms are needed for Quarantine. We are also monitoring the number of community cases, some of whom are required to come into MIQ.

    Managed Isolation and Quarantine is aware that travelling around the world right now is not simple or easy and acknowledges that there are many people in really difficult situations as a result of this global pandemic.

    MIQ has an emergency allocation process which exists for limited situations which require urgent travel to New Zealand within the next 14 days. There are currently 400 rooms per fortnight set aside for those who need to travel urgently. This is a last resort option with a very high threshold.

    All applications for emergency allocation places in managed isolation are assessed on a case-by-case basis, against a set criteria. These decisions are not easy ones to make and we are sympathetic to the distressing situations people applying for an emergency allocation are in.

    To be eligible for an emergency allocation, the applicant must be legally entitled to enter New Zealand and the travel must be time-critical (within fourteen days of their intended date of departure). Evidence is required to support all applications to ensure a fair and consistent process.

    Right now, MIQ is under pressure like never before and we are currently experiencing very high volumes of emergency allocation requests due to widespread travel disruption around the world.

    From 30 October 2020 to 23 January 2022, MIQ processed 8,863 completed applications and approved 5,396 applications for emergency allocations.

    Emergency Allocation criteria and pregnancy

    Pregnancy in and of itself is not considered an emergency under the emergency allocation criteria but certain conditions during pregnancy may mean that the high bar for an emergency is met.

    The criteria – Category 1a could apply to someone who is pregnant if they require access to time-critical medical treatment which has been scheduled in New Zealand and is unavailable or inaccessible in their current location.

    Category 2a allows people to urgently return to New Zealand to provide critical care for a dependent (i.e: their spouse/partner who is pregnant). To meet the ‘critical care’ requirement, an applicant’s situation must be very serious, and no one else is in a position to assist the person that the application refers to.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-omicron-charlotte-bellis-an-open-letter-on-miq/U4WQGYTJHUP36AGVOBN3F6PJSE/

    • Muttonbird 1.1
      30 January 2022 at 8:21 am

      Sorry, but why did Belgium not take them? Why is it incumbent upon NZ to take them, are we a soft touch now? My reading of it is that part of the delay concerned his application for a critical purpose visitor visa.

      I admire Charlotte Bellis, she is s brave soul, but this is a 1 in 100 year pandemic. Pissing about in third world war zones in a pandemic is a very high risk thing to do, particularly when she was warned to get out before Kabul fell.

      I'm glad it has been resolved.

      • Dennis Frank 1.1.1
        30 January 2022 at 8:46 am

        Has it?? Haven't seen evidence in the media that it has. Meanwhile, there could be a pile-on starting…

        GB News presenter Wootton, who was born in New Zealand, says it shows there is "nothing kind about Dear Leader Ardern".

        "More unimaginable cruelty from Jacinda Ardern in her hermit kingdom," he tweeted. "The full story is astonishing and very much worth your time. This is what New Zealand passport holders are having to endure, even though it is a legal right for us to return. Ardern's Government is clearly breaking the law."

      • aom 1.1.2
        30 January 2022 at 8:48 am

        NZ should get Charlotte Bellis back here asap and set her up to sort out the international problems relating to the Taliban on behalf of the Government. She appears to be able to communicate very effectively without having to resort to the bluster, bullshit and threats and has obviously had results from the moment the illegal combatants had their arses kicked out of Afghanistan.

        Oh, must be dreaming – the US and its pathetic hangers on won't allow NZ to be an honest broker. They are obviously more intent on holding onto the billions in gold that belongs to Afghanistan and are quite happy to starve the inhabitants for propaganda purposes.

      • weka 1.1.3
        30 January 2022 at 10:30 am

        Sorry, but why did Belgium not take them? Why is it incumbent upon NZ to take them, are we a soft touch now?

        Because she is a NZ citizen, not a Belgian citizen. Do you want NZ taking Belgian citizens now?

        • Muttonbird 1.1.3.1
          1 February 2022 at 6:45 pm

          But are a couple not equal partners? Not sure why her citizenship trumps his.

          He was offered a Critical Purpose Visitor Visa for 6-12 months:

          The Critical Purpose Visitor Visa. If you hold a Critical Purpose Visitor Visa you can travel to New Zealand even though the border is closed. This is a temporary visa that allows you to come to New Zealand for 6-12 months.

          While the EU is similar offering the standard Schengen visa for 3 months in any 6, she'd used half of hers already.

          It's all risky stuff, these foreign correspondent jobs.

    • Blazer 1.2
      30 January 2022 at 8:37 am

      Her situation' developed because she says she was told by some doctors ,she couldn't conceive.

      She didn't seem to understand the travel within 14 days requiremen when she made her application.

      The real culprits are these…doctors,maybe she should sue them.

    • vto 1.3
      30 January 2022 at 9:57 am

      " Probably male, since the victim of their arbitrary decision-making is female. Defenders of the patriarchy"

      What a load of horseshit

      zero evidence

      just bias

      horse

      shit

    • Ross 1.4
      30 January 2022 at 10:24 am

      Someone in our public service is trying to undermine Labour – using the MIQ strategy

      The buck stops with the PM and this Government. Excuses don't wash.

      And this isn't just about Bellis. As Stuff reported back in October 2021, one couple took the Government to court to get redress. The Government will have been well aware of the issue before Bellis' application:

      Sami knew of nine couples with babies due in the next three months and wanted a court ruling to help them. Since she started the campaign on September 23, two women had already had traumatic births without their partners to help, after their MIQ applications were refused.

      “I never want anyone to go through what I’ve gone through. We need a policy change. It’s just crazy. It can’t be that you have to take the government to court to get entry, if pregnancy is an issue with MIQ…There's just too much risk for a very vulnerable time in your life.”

      But the very vulnerable Taika Waititi just made into MIQ for at least the second time. Woohoo!!

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300436891/miq-spot-granted-to-pregnant-couple-who-took-government-to-court

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/127636833/taika-waititi-back-in-nz-shares-glimpse-of-stay-in-miq

    • weka 1.5
      30 January 2022 at 10:39 am

      I've added the statements from the Minister and the head of MiQ to your comment.

      • Dennis Frank 1.5.1
        30 January 2022 at 10:51 am

        Funny how the MIQ bunny thinks he can bamboozle everyone with lots of words. Dunno if it will work all that well as an evasion strategy.

        Notice how he fails to explain why the 14 day window is necessary. I suppose we must wait to see if Charlotte is able to jump through this particular hoop but whoever created it lacks credibility. Wanker?

        • weka 1.5.1.1
          30 January 2022 at 11:36 am

          I was pretty disgusted you misrepresenting the situation so you can take a pop at civil servants. Which is why I added the note.

          Notice how he fails to explain why the 14 day window is necessary. I suppose we must wait to see if Charlotte is able to jump through this particular hoop but whoever created it lacks credibility.

          Yep, he could have taken twice as many words to explain something that is extraneous to solving Bellis' situation right now. Or he could have stayed focused on the issue at hand. MSM could of course now pick up the issue and explain to the public what is going on and why, instead of going off on one.

          My guess, without looking too hard, is that they need some boundaries in the system. If they don't create that structurally, then it comes down to the staff person on the day. Is that really how you think MiQ should be run? Letting individual staff make decisions about who should be let in and who shouldn't?

          • Dennis Frank 1.5.1.1.1
            30 January 2022 at 11:54 am

            No, I don't agree that some bureaucratic scumbag hiding behind anonymity ought to be allowed to get away with discriminating against women in traumatic situations instead of helping them. Simple! It's sickening. sad

            • weka 1.5.1.1.1.1
              30 January 2022 at 12:19 pm

              You don't actually know that is what happened though. Looks like your antipathy towards bureaucratic scumbags is more important than the actual story.

              • Dennis Frank …
                30 January 2022 at 12:33 pm

                Pattern recognition drives interpretation. I've seen so many similar instances since I first detected their behavioural pattern half a century back.

                But I do agree we need more info & it's reasonable to give authorities time to get their act together. I'll try not to comment further for now!

                • weka …
                  30 January 2022 at 12:58 pm

                  Confirmation bias drives perception too.

                  The thing that interests me about the story is what the policy settings are that mean that Bellis' isn't the first pregnant woman to experience this.

        • Patricia Bremner 1.5.1.2
          30 January 2022 at 12:14 pm

          Dennis you are pulling your own chain.

      • weka 1.6.1
        30 January 2022 at 12:22 pm

        yes, she is. Because she's pregnant in a country where giving birth or having a pregnancy complication might kill her or her baby. They should be letting anyone back in pronto in that situation.

        • joe90 1.6.1.1
          30 January 2022 at 12:46 pm

          No more so than any other pregnant, uninsured New Zealander who's had to cool their heels and wait in a third country.

          • weka 1.6.1.1.1
            30 January 2022 at 12:53 pm

            I completely agree, they should all be getting high up the priority list. Bellis' yelling about it may change the policy for other pregnant women.

        • Blazer 1.6.1.2
          30 January 2022 at 1:38 pm

          Not sure about you,but I find it hard to believe that Afghanistan was the only country in the world…she could travel..to.

          • weka 1.6.1.2.1
            30 January 2022 at 2:01 pm

            I wondered that too at first, but what country do you think would give her a visa right now? And it's a pretty easy lie to get caught out in when going majorly public if it's not true.

            • weka 1.6.1.2.1.1
              30 January 2022 at 2:01 pm

              bearing in mind she needs a country that will provide her with maternity care that she can afford.

            • Blazer 1.6.1.2.1.2
              30 January 2022 at 2:51 pm

              Not sure what her choices could have been….but choosing Afghanistan makes a good story….shamelessly contrived imo.

              • weka …
                30 January 2022 at 2:59 pm

                how can it be contrived if she had nowhere else to go?

                • Blazer …
                  30 January 2022 at 3:08 pm

                  How do we know she had nowhere else to go?

                  My understanding was she didn't even have to leave Belgium.

                  Do you know when she discovered she was…pregnant?

                  • weka …
                    30 January 2022 at 4:23 pm

                    She's due in May, so I'm guessing she conceived in the Spring.Nee

                    My understanding was she didn't even have to leave Belgium.

                    Citation needed. Needs to be a reliable link and a quote.

                    • Blazer …
                      30 January 2022 at 6:07 pm

                      You have already confirmed that she had 6 months in Belgium and did not use it.

                      I am presuming you can apply for an M.I.Q spot in NZ from…Belgium…doesn't make such a heart string story though.

                      And she has been offered asylum in another country…

                      Kiwi journalist Charlotte Bellis offered asylum by another country, but no help yet from New Zealand | Stuff.co.nz

                    • weka …
                      30 January 2022 at 6:41 pm

                      You have already confirmed that she had 6 months in Belgium and did not use it.

                      Where did I say that?

                      I am presuming you can apply for an M.I.Q spot in NZ from…Belgium…doesn't make such a heart string story though.

                      Your own link says,

                      Unable to legally remain in Belgium,

                      I thought the lottery is closed currently. Without going through the emergency process she would have to wait until the end of February, assuming that NZ actually opens the borders to Kiwis at that time and doesn't have to delay further.

                    • Blazer …
                      30 January 2022 at 6:57 pm

                      Lots of holes in her story.

                      She is a champion of womens rights,yet worked for Al Jazeera owned by according to her, an anti woman Qatar Govt.

                      It seems she had a Schengen visa which allows free travel to 26 member countries.

                      So she could have left Belgium and gone to any of 25 other countries-mostly first world.

                      She will not reveal the name of the country who is offering asylum…wonder why.

                      Btw my mistake(re you posting) the 180 day visa with 90 days to use is a bit confusing…whatever ,she could still apply from Belgium without political grandstanding.

                      'On the other hand, nationals of visa-exempt countries can remain in Belgium for up to 90 days, within a 180 day period. The time spent in other countries within the Schengen Area is also counted in this period.

                      Please make sure you understand the 90/180 Schengen Visa Rule. Do not violate this rule, not even for one day, since you may face consequences for overstaying in the Schengen territory.'

                    • weka …
                      30 January 2022 at 7:06 pm

                      We pondered about where to wait. We flew to Jim's home country of Belgium, but I was not a resident. New Zealanders can only spend three of every six months in the Schengen zone and I had eaten through half of that by the time January came around. We wanted to keep time up our sleeves for an emergency, so decided to rebase.

                      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-omicron-charlotte-bellis-an-open-letter-on-miq/U4WQGYTJHUP36AGVOBN3F6PJSE/

                      What is it about that risk assessment you don't understand?

                      If she was in Belgium, or wherever, how would she get back into NZ?

                    • weka …
                      30 January 2022 at 7:08 pm

                      She is a champion of womens rights,yet worked for Al Jazeera owned by according to her, an anti woman Qatar Govt.

                      is the implication there that only people who don't champion women's rights should work for Al Jazeera?

                    • Blazer …
                      30 January 2022 at 7:38 pm

                      ' We wanted to keep time up our sleeves for an emergency, so decided to rebase.'

                      Is the situation she found herself in an…emergency?

                      'If she was in Belgium, or wherever, how would she get back into NZ?' -so why would going back to Afghanistan be any better?

                      'is the implication there that only people who don't champion women's rights should work for Al Jazeera?'

                      Not necessarily,but apparantly her regard for the Qatar govt is very flexible.

                      If a blatantly racist employer offered you a job,would you take it using the same logic?

                      '

                      how can it be contrived if she had nowhere else to go?

                      We know she could have gone to at least 25 other member countries on her existing visa.

                      I'm wondering how the partner feels…now he's about to be a dad,presuming she told him ,she can't get ..pregnant.

                      Yes she's a journo and knows how to get..attention=horrible creature AFAIC.

                    • weka …
                      30 January 2022 at 7:49 pm

                      …

                      30 January 2022 at 7:38 pm (Edit)

                      ' We wanted to keep time up our sleeves for an emergency, so decided to rebase.'

                      Is the situation she found herself in an…emergency?

                      No, she's trying to pre-empt an emergency that could kill her or harm her baby. Think about it, if she stayed in Belgium (or wherever) she would have to leave in Feb before the NZ borders open. What happens if the borders don't open? Or she didn't get an emergency MiQ place?

                      How much do you know about pregnancy complications? Or flying in the third trimester?

                      'If she was in Belgium, or wherever, how would she get back into NZ?' -so why would going back to Afghanistan be any better?

                      Afaik the only other visa she had was for Afghanistan.

                      'is the implication there that only people who don't champion women's rights should work for Al Jazeera?'

                      Not necessarily,but apparantly her regard for the Qatar govt is very flexible.

                      If a blatantly racist employer offered you a job,would you take it using the same logic?

                      Well here I am writing on TS despite the sexism.

                      how can it be contrived if she had nowhere else to go?

                      We know she could have gone to at least 25 other member countries on her existing visa.

                      Sigh, we've already covered this.

                      I'm wondering how the partner feels…now he's about to be a dad,presuming she told him ,she can't get ..pregnant.

                      Yes she's a journo and knows how to get..attention=horrible creature AFAIC.

                      Ok, making shit up now.

                    • Blazer …
                      30 January 2022 at 8:14 pm

                      Why did she try to get married?

                      'Afaik the only other visa she had was for Afghanistan.'

                      We know she could have gone to at least 25 other member countries on her existing visa.

                      Sigh, we've already covered this.'

                      Sigh..I don't think we have.

                      'Ok, making shit up now.'…what 'shit' would that be then?

                      She has stated she was told by doctors she could not conceive,it appears the pregnancy was a surprise!

                      I notice she has never bothered to admit her application re the 14 days was not valid.

                    • weka …
                      30 January 2022 at 9:19 pm

                      Why did she try to get married?

                      where does she say that?

                      'Afaik the only other visa she had was for Afghanistan.'

                      We know she could have gone to at least 25 other member countries on her existing visa.

                      Sigh, we've already covered this.'

                      Sigh..I don't think we have.

                      What other countries could she have gone to other than the EU ones we've already discussed?

                  • Blazer …
                    30 January 2022 at 6:16 pm

                    '

                    'It is very important to be aware that it is illegal for an unmarried woman to be pregnant in Qatar. The consequences of the authorities discovering that a single woman is pregnant include jail and deportation, and even physical punishment (lashings) in some extreme circumstances.

                    For that reason, women who are not married and find themselves pregnant while living in Qatar should plan to head for home, or to another country. As a marriage certificate is required to have access to maternity care, even getting married after conception will not resolve the situation. Unmarried women who do leave Qatar due to becoming pregnant may also face problems if they return to Qatar after giving birth.

                    'Having a Baby in Qatar – Qatar – Angloinfo

    • Ann 1.7
      31 January 2022 at 12:45 am

      It seems to me that the emotional reaction is foremost in people before the logical questions get asked. This is a woman who was in Afghanistan as a journalist and had contact as such with Taliban. Subsequently according to the Guardian of UK, she found herself pregnant when in Quatar. She left Al Jazeera and went to Belgium which is the country of the baby's father but there she has no entry rights and seemingly he isn't helping? From a safe place in Belgium because NZ was closed with Covid regulations, she decided to go back to Afghanistan with assurances from the Taliban? Is this really true or even possible and who in their right minds would choose to go back there when not even employed any more as a journalist and pregnant? Just to use speciall allocation rights for quick entry back home? Apparently the dates offered were not OK for her so she chose to delay. I can't believe following this that the immediate sinners are apparently the inhumane government services in NZ. What is wrong with logic and responsability today? The rest of the world looks at NZ with admiration and this story shows the lack of respect for rights of one young NZ lady. Amazing. So easy to criticize knowing little of the real facts and so easy to abuse the good countries with good systems.

  2. tsmithfield 2
    30 January 2022 at 6:27 am

    MIQ needs to be dismantled immediately.

    Very soon a few thousand Onicron cases coming across the border will be like pissing in the sea.

    Our much bigger problem now is that our labour market is already struggling to keep up. And we have the big sick coming.

    So we are going to desperately need kiwis to come home to help fill the gaps. For instance if quarter of our hospital staff are sick or isolating wouldn’t it be great to have doctors and nurses coming in from overseas. Or if supermarket shelves aren’t being stocked due to a lack of truck drivers, having some more coming across the border would be great.

    MIQ has already lost any of its asset value and is now a major liability IMO.

    • Muttonbird 2.1
      30 January 2022 at 8:07 am

      Where are they all going to live? I suppose we could force Airbnb’ers, and amateur and absentee landlords to rent out their ghost houses.

      • tsmithfield 2.1.1
        30 January 2022 at 8:14 am

        That is the next problem. But not unsolvable.

        The bigger problem will be the huge labour shortage running right through the economy.

        Since I am talking about kiwis, a lot of those coming in will already have homes here, or family who could put them up as a short term fix anyway.

    • DukeEll 2.2
      30 January 2022 at 8:26 am

      It’s useful for keeping out the hundreds of thousands of pissed off kiwi’s who won’t be able to not vote labour at the next election, as they’ve fallen foul of electoral qualification to vote in 2023

    • Drowsy M. Kram 2.3
      30 January 2022 at 10:00 am

      For instance if quarter of our hospital staff are sick or isolating wouldn’t it be great to have doctors and nurses coming in from overseas.

      Kiwi nurses and doctors rushing back from overseas during our Omicron wave (February – March)? Mate, you're dreeeaming.

      Once NZ's new case numbers top 500 per day (~10 per day in the region I live in), I'm planning to hunkering down so as not to trouble healthcare and supermarket workers. Omicron too shall pass.

      A letter to New Zealand, from Covid-ravaged Australia [25 Jan 2022]

      Dear New Zealand,

      Kia ora!

      I guess by now you have received Omicron, the unwanted visitor that we in Australia hosted over the Christmas season (and beyond – the guest that stayed all summer!)

      No doubt you have been busy preparing for this guest – extending your isolation requirements, promoting booster shots and tightening restrictions. But a crucial form of preparation is the one you do in your head.

      Going from having very few Covid cases to thousands of cases a day in the community is a mental shift that is hard to prepare for – but having just had a summer of Omicron, I’m writing to tell you what may await.

      I’m not writing to instruct you – just to offer some solidarity, the advice I wish I’d been given, a glimpse from the immediate future.
      …
      So be calm, kind and try not to panic. This too shall pass.

      “New Zealand PM in isolation after close contact with COVID-19 case”
      https://www.cgtn.com/special/The-latest-on-the-COVID-19-pandemic.html

      • tsmithfield 2.3.1
        30 January 2022 at 10:14 am

        A lot of them have likely already had Omicron so won’t be bothered about our outbreak. Just glad to get home.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 2.3.1.1
          30 January 2022 at 10:55 am

          A lot of them also probably have some experience of what it's like to be a healthcare professional during an Omicron wave. I'm not expecting recent returnees to make a big dent in nurse/doctor shortages during our Omicron wave – just hoping that a few will stick around when the pandemic finally winds down.

          Omicron Drives US Deaths Higher Than in Fall's Delta Wave
          [28 January 2022]

          ‘I see death daily’: Under record strain, doctor describes misery of Omicron wards [27 January 2022]

          Patients who are fully vaccinated are faring better than others, Rokach reported, voicing support for Israeli moves to broaden eligibility for fourth vaccine doses. “It’s true that the vaccine isn’t so effective in preventing infection, but we see that it makes a big difference in preventing severe disease,” Rokach said. “We’re really lucky that most of the population took vaccinations, and I think this is the reason Omicron is not causing many more cases of severe disease.”

          Rokach thinks that while the current peak in coronavirus cases will push teams like his to their limits, they will cope — even if the national serious case count doubles to 2,000, far beyond predictions. “We are optimistic,” he said, “As we believe the next two weeks will be very very difficult but after that, it will be easier.

      • Treetop 2.3.2
        30 January 2022 at 10:41 am

        hunkering down, this is the best strategy providing you can do this for 8 weeks.

        Does an isolation period start from the time a person had close contact with a case, even if the case did not know they had Covid?

    • weka 2.4
      30 January 2022 at 10:43 am

      MIQ needs to be dismantled immediately.

      Very soon a few thousand Onicron cases coming across the border will be like pissing in the sea.

      You appear to either not to understand how much protecting our health system is part of the current pandemic response, or you don't care. Arguing for opening the borders going into an omicron outbreak is basically throwing a whole bunch of more people under the bus.

      • tsmithield 2.4.1
        30 January 2022 at 11:00 am

        It isn’t going to take very long before the benefit of keeping cases out will be far outweighed by the shortage of critically needed personnel that MIQ is causing.

        Where do you think that tipping point is? Because waiting until we have reached the tipping point will be too late.

      • tsmithfield 2.4.2
        30 January 2022 at 11:07 am

        Do you agree that we will reach a tipping point where the benefit of keeping cases out will be outweighed by the critical labour shortages in areas including health?

        If so do you think it is wise to wait until the tipping point is reached before we do anything about it?

        • weka 2.4.2.1
          30 January 2022 at 11:42 am

          I think bringing in workers with omicron will make that situation worse. The only way your suggestion makes sense if you believe that we should let omicron run free (or freeish). That's a completely different strategic approach, and again you haven't actually explained how that would work for the whole situation but instead have just taken one isolated aspect and suggested a quick fix.

          We're heading into a crisis, potential a very serious one. There are no easy answers here, not matter how much we are tempted by the thought of silver bullets.

          • weka 2.4.2.1.1
            30 January 2022 at 11:43 am

            My own view is that we should all be being very careful right now. One thing people could do, that we were asked to do going into the first lockdown, is not take unnecessary risks with our physical health. I'm thinking about the number of A and E visits over the next month or two and how many could be avoided with people being more cautious for a period of time.

            • tsmithfield 2.4.2.1.1.1
              30 January 2022 at 12:03 pm

              I think Omicron will soon be running free whatever we do.

              Imagine a situation where we have 100000 people with Omicron, and all their close contacts are self isolating. Even if it were on five close contacts each that would mean 600000 isolating at once. So, it will quickly come to a point where isolation becomes counter-productive, and the focus will be on keeping as many people productive as possible.

              So there will be some point in the fairly near future where the government has no option but to give up on restrictions because they will be counter-productive.

              Removing the need for MIQ for returning kiwis doesn’t mean they can’t be self-isolating at home btw. At least then they will be available to help fill the many gaps that are soon going to appear.

              • weka …
                30 January 2022 at 12:25 pm

                you're conflating self-isolation with border control. You've avoided addressing the issue of letting people into NZ now with omicron (or delta for that matter) and how this would impact on the health system, health workers and all the flow on effects.

                Removing the need for MIQ for returning kiwis doesn’t mean they can’t be self-isolating at home btw. At least then they will be available to help fill the many gaps that are soon going to appear.

                You've just said that self-isolation isn't going to work.

                • tsmithfield …
                  30 January 2022 at 12:28 pm

                  MIQ hasn't actually worked now, has it? Otherwise we wouldn't have Omicron in the community.

                  The prevalence of Omicron in the community will soon be so great that cases through the border will make very little difference to the overall impact.

                  • tsmithfield …
                    30 January 2022 at 12:42 pm

                    And home isolation does away with the capacity restraints at MIQ.

                    I have only suggested home isolation as a solution for those who feel a bit squeamish. I don't think it will make a lot of difference in the end.

                  • weka …
                    30 January 2022 at 12:57 pm

                    MIQ hasn't actually worked now, has it? Otherwise we wouldn't have Omicron in the community.

                    You patently don't understand (or care) why we have controlled borders, nor why imperfect is still bloody useful.

                    Sounds like you are ok if lots more people get sick, end up in hospital, get PTSD or burnout, die, get long covid, and so on.

                    • tsmithfield …
                      30 January 2022 at 1:33 pm

                      Oh come on. You are completely exaggerating. How is a few extra cases coming across the border going to make a blind bit of difference when Omicron is already endemic in the community and spreading rapidly?

                      Sure, MIQ slowed down the inevitable. But here we are now. Where we stand now, MIQ might as well have not have existed so far as the current Omicron outbreak is concerned.

                      All it took was one case getting through.

                    • The Unliving …
                      30 January 2022 at 1:57 pm

                      @tsmithfield

                      It's hardly exaggeration. Getting rid of MIQ will almost certainly mean a lot more than "a few extra cases" coming across the border. And what about the next variant?

                    • tsmithfield …
                      30 January 2022 at 2:01 pm

                      Once Omicron has gone through most of us will have good immunity against later variations of Covid, at least in terms of seriousness of disease.

                      We need to get to a point where we can live with Covid. MIQ is becoming unsustainable. We can't lock our own citizens out of their own country forever.

                      [citation needed for this claim of fact: “Once Omicron has gone through most of us will have good immunity against later variations of Covid, at least in terms of seriousness of disease.”

                      By citation I mean a reliable source, an explanation from your, some quotes, and a link. A link on its own is insufficient. If using video, there needs to be clear time stamps and explanation of who the people are as well – weka]

                • tsmithfield …
                  30 January 2022 at 2:25 pm

                  Fair enough. I thought it was fairly well established that previous Covid infections reduce the severity of future infections, so didn't bother with the cite.

                  But here is one from the monthly news letter from the National Institute of Health US.

                  https://newsinhealth.nih.gov/2021/04/antibodies-protect-against-covid-19-reinfection

                  • weka …
                    30 January 2022 at 2:35 pm

                    please reread my mod note and provide proper citation.

                  • tsmithfield …
                    30 January 2022 at 2:40 pm

                    Here is a quote from the link above that demonstrates that a previous Covid infection provides protection against future Covid infections:

                    "After having COVID-19, most people’s bodies develop antibodies to help fight it off. These are special molecules made by the body’s disease defense system, the immune system. A study found that people with these antibodies were less likely to get COVID-19 again."

                    • weka …
                      30 January 2022 at 2:53 pm

                      This is very weak.

                      The article is nearly a year old.

                      The main issue I see is that it doesn't say how long the partial anti-body protection lasts. Probably because it was early research.

                      NIH’s Dr. Lynn Penberthy, who led the research team, explains that more questions still need to be answered. “We are nevertheless encouraged by this early finding,” she says.

                      You claimed,

                      Once Omicron has gone through most of us will have good immunity against later variations of Covid, at least in terms of seriousness of disease.

                      'good immunity' is incredibly imprecise. Your link doesn't support the assertion of seriousness of disease.

                    • weka …
                      30 January 2022 at 2:58 pm

                      meanwhile, this piece from the Guardian last week shows a different picture. Still a lot to learn, and we don't know what it means for long covid or other long term damage.

                      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/21/covid-reinfection-how-likely-are-you-to-catch-virus-multiple-times

                      It's entirely possible that what you hope for (the virus settles into a pattern of waves of less infectious and less harmful infections), but I see no evidence that we are close to that yet and still too many unknowns. Lynn has talked about a five year time frame.

                    • tsmithfield …
                      30 January 2022 at 3:19 pm

                      You have to remember that we would be combining natural infection with high rates of vaccination. There is evidence that the combination of both can produce "super immunity".

                      From the link below:

                      "Scientists have claimed that a so-called "super-immunity" to Covid-19 can be achieved by people who have been infected by the virus after receiving the vaccine for the disease.

                      "In a new paper, Oregon Health and Science University (OHSU), experts say the same is also true for people who get infected before getting two jabs.

                      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/covid-19-omicron-outbreak-scientists-say-a-covid-infection-after-vaccination-triggers-super-immunity/MRTMRO73NMUUXNWVI6337NTMQU/

                      It was publicised fairly widely at the time that the reason Covid was so aggressive is that the human species had little experience with this particular flu hence had little in the way of natural immunity to it.

                      However, one of reasons postulated to explain why Omicron is considered to not be as harmful as previous iterations is due to immunisation and previous Covid infection in populations:

                      "Scientists are trying to determine the extent to which this is because of higher immunity rates engendered by vaccination or past illness, or Omicron is intrinsically less nasty."

                      https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/safrican-study-suggests-omicron-less-severe-even-unvaccinated-2022-01-14/

                    • tsmithfield …
                      30 January 2022 at 3:46 pm

                      'good immunity' is incredibly imprecise. Your link doesn't support the assertion of seriousness of disease.

                      So far as "good immunity" is concerned I mean less likely to develop severe infection rather than not being infected at all, as per this definition from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary:

                      "having or producing antibodies or lymphocytes capable of reacting with a specific antigen"

                      https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/immune

                    • weka …
                      30 January 2022 at 4:29 pm

                      Right, this is what I meant when I said,

                      It's entirely possible that what you hope for (the virus settles into a pattern of waves of less infectious and less harmful infections), but I see no evidence that we are close to that yet and still too many unknowns. Lynn has talked about a five year time frame.

                      So,

                      "These results, together with our previous work, point to a time when SARS-CoV-2 may become a mostly mild endemic infection like a seasonal respiratory tract infection, instead of a worldwide pandemic."

                      Point to a time.

                      We're not there yet. Opening up the borders and letting covid run free in NZ at this time would be a disaster. The strategy is to slow spread as much as we can, and I presume immunise further. By the time the omicron vax becomes available we may well have a much better understanding of both immunity and timeframes.

                    • tsmithfield …
                      30 January 2022 at 6:34 pm

                      The problem with an Omicron Vax is that we may well be through this wave before the vaccine becomes available.

                      I guess we will see how this plays out over the next few months. But my thoughts are that the whole isolation system will become so unworkable that it will be abandoned fairly quickly. I have talked to quite a number of people who have said they will simply ignore being tested if the isolation regime stays as it is. If there is mass civil disobedience in this respect, then there will be little to stop the virus from spreading.

                      What we are doing now may slow progression down for a week or two. But I think we end up with "let it rip" eventually whether we like it or not.

                      Anyway, that is just speculation, so we will have to wait to see what happens in reality.

                    • weka …
                      30 January 2022 at 6:45 pm

                      do you know what the government's three phase plan is? They've already said that isolation rules will change as numbers of infections increase.

                      People talking about or planning on ignoring the plan is just dangerous.

              • Drowsy M. Kram …
                30 January 2022 at 2:22 pm

                So there will be some point in the fairly near future where the government has no option but to give up on restrictions because they will be counter-productive.

                I understand the impulse to return to 'normal' life, but "give up on [all?] restrictions"? During a pandemic? Imho that would be an imprudent response, and a fair indicator of just how dire the prospects for this iteration of civilisation have become.

                Omnibus Omicron Intelligence [24 January 2022]
                “We have to remain on our toes,” he [Lemieux] said, “because there is still a lot we don’t know about the virus.”

                2022’s Imperative: Letting Go of Our Past to Birth Our Future [18 January 2022]
                The epic disruptions wrought by a dramatic surge in heat waves, storms, floods, droughts, fires, and now the COVID-19 pandemic leave us desperate to return to life as we previously knew it. In our growing panic, we forget that it is exactly that previous way of living that created the current emergency.

                This is not a temporary problem that we can put behind us by electing new political leaders or reducing our use of plastic bags. We are dealing with false assumptions about what and who we are that lead to deeply flawed collective choices. We must publicly challenge those false assumptions and replace them with our deepening understanding of how life works.

                At doom’s doorstep: It is 100 seconds to midnight
                [20 January 2022]

                • tsmithfield …
                  30 January 2022 at 3:31 pm

                  That was my prediction rather than an argument. I will be more specific. I predict that within two months MIQ will be abandoned.

                  Lets see if that happens.

                  • weka …
                    30 January 2022 at 4:32 pm

                    This is what Labour are already saying. Not two months but the first half (?) of the year. Hipkins has been talking about this in the past week.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    30 January 2022 at 7:27 pm

                    I predict that within two months MIQ will be abandoned.

                    Unless the Team manages to significantly slow Omicron transmission (unlikely, as only China and Taiwan have managed this so far), then within two months Kiwis will be on the far side of our Omicron wave.

                    And if that turns out to be NZ's only significant wave of COVID-19 cases (which would be an achievement in itself) on the way to a more benign endemic disease globally (keep an eye on South Aftica, the UK, Canada, Ireland, Australia and other countries which already have decreasing numbers of active cases), then by all means abandon MIQ, although imho it would be prudent to retain some MIQ capacity for a little longer, if only on standby.

                    Omnibus Omicron Intelligence [24 January 2022]
                    “We have to remain on our toes,” he [Lemieux] said, “because there is still a lot we don’t know about the virus.”

                    During this on-going viral pandemic, I'm happy to be guided by the consensus opinions of health experts (virologists, epidemiologists, vaccinologists, etc.) Prioritising health will continue to serve us well.

                    Let’s see what happens.

              • Belladonna …
                30 January 2022 at 9:58 pm

                It's already a nightmare trying to get any treatment through A&E – at least in Auckland (I don't have evidence for the rest of the country).

                This is all anecdata – but numerous friends report waits of up to 18 hours to be seen over Dec/Jan. None of them were there for anything other than emergency situations (1 broken leg, 1 chest pains with a history of heart trouble, 1 severe abdominal pain).
                Our A&E is already overwhelmed long before any impact from Covid.

    • McFlock 2.5
      30 January 2022 at 4:28 pm

      If we'd listened to the white-anters and plan B jerks, we'd have had thousands of dead from OG covid and delta, let alone omicron.

      Some people are far too eager to welcome their new virus overlords.

  3. Dennis Frank 3
    30 January 2022 at 6:44 am

    In a zeitgeist current sweeping through islamic nations, folks are realising doctrinal adherence fails to produce effective governance.

    The failure of Islamists to bring about change and effective governance was brought vividly to the fore with the fall of the moderate Islamist party Ennahda in Tunisia on July 25th, 2021, after Tunisian President Kais Saied invoked emergency powers to fire the prime minister and suspend parliament (in which Ennahda had been the largest party). The fall of the Islamist government was largely supported by the public.

    Just a day prior to Saied’s suspension of parliament, the country had been gripped by anti-government protests demanding the dissolution of parliament, with groups in the cities of Kairouan and Sousse storming local Ennahda offices and tearing down banners. In the city of Tozeur, a party headquarters was set ablaze.

    Saied’s seizure of power, despite being condemned by almost all political parties and civil society organizations within Tunisia as a coup, has been successful because he has tapped into rising public anger over a stagnating economy, political paralysis, and an incompetent response to the COVID-19 crisis. At the time of the coup, Tunisia had recorded the highest per capita death rate from COVID-19 in Africa, while a sluggish vaccine rollout had seen only eight percent of the population fully vaccinated by July 28th.

    Meanwhile in Morocco, another moderate Islamist party, the Justice and Development Party (PJD), was removed from power not by a coup but through the ballot box. On September 8th, 2021, Moroccan voters handed the PJD a crushing defeat, with the party losing some 90 percent of the seats it held in parliament.

    Sudan saw the most spectacular fall from grace of any Islamisation project across the Muslim world. In April 2019, a peaceful popular uprising led to the downfall of the military dictator Omar al-Bashir, and with him, 30 years of authoritarian rule by the Islamist National Congress Party (NCP).

    https://quillette.com/2022/01/21/in-the-muslim-world-islamism-is-going-out-of-vogue/

    The report also features Malaysia and Indonesia:

    In August 2021, Malaysia surpassed India’s per-capita COVID-19 death toll. For a country in which race and religion dominate public discourse, the collapse of a coalition ostensibly united by the ideologies of Malay and Islamic supremacism demonstrates, in many ways, the hollowness of the Malay Agenda in the face of a complete inability to govern.

    one could argue that the political power of Islamists in Indonesia has been overstated. As noted by Indonesian researcher Nick Kuipers in one pre-election study of the campaign platforms of 72,486 candidates at all levels of government (including for national, provincial, and district legislatures), it was found that only 5.7 percent of candidates had actually explicitly referred to religious themes in their platforms.

  4. Dennis Frank 4
    30 January 2022 at 7:02 am

    Anyone interested in the underbelly of American politics can find food for thought here: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/jan/29/bidens-american-muckrackers-red-handed-book-review

    In early November 2021, the FBI raided his apartment, handcuffed him in his underwear and seized two phones. He was not arrested. Reportedly, the feds swooped in connection with the disappearance and unauthorized publication of a diary kept by Ashley Biden, the president’s daughter.

    Project Veritas never wrote anything on the topic and handed the document over. The justice department had placed the first amendment and O’Keefe’s civil liberties in its crosshairs, notwithstanding a court-ordered warrant. But that is only part of the story.

    Problem is, we never get the full story. Intriguing hints tantalise but never go anywhere. Readers roll their eyes & move on…

    • Puckish Rogue 4.1
      30 January 2022 at 7:12 am

      Speaking of the seedy underbellies…not saying this doesn't happen in the Republican party either:

      • Dennis Frank 4.1.1
        30 January 2022 at 7:45 am

        And we must keep in mind that Aotearoa's cheerleader for selling out to China was John Key. Thought it was such a brilliant idea that a Chinese govt spook became a National MP to facilitate the process… surprise

        Yeah, the American sell-out to China was bipartisan. Led by Clinton but since Nixon had launched the trend in '71 can't blame the Dems for jumping aboard later.

        Reps would argue that Nixon was merely doing triangulation on the Russians, using China as a tool for that. True. However the capitalists drove the process on a bipartisan basis. The idea was traditional: use cheap labour. China had plenty to offer. Destroying unionism in the USA was just a bonus.

        • Ad 4.1.1.1
          30 January 2022 at 9:04 am

          New Zealand owes its material wellbeing to Chinese customers buying our products and services.

          And through the Free Trade Agreement two decades ago, we made that dependence willingly and with our eyes open.

          We are a richer and more culturally diverse country because of it.

          • arkie 4.1.1.1.1
            30 January 2022 at 9:11 am

            New Zealand [exporters] owe [their] material wellbeing to Chinese customers

            The evidence we are richer is actually pretty thin on the ground:

            We find that even though the NZ export sector experienced gains from the 2008 FTA, this FTA did not have any observable impact on real GDP per capita, where GDP per person is an informative indicator of welfare across a broad range of countries.

            University of Otago Economics Discussion Papers No. 1906

            • Dennis Frank 4.1.1.1.1.1
              30 January 2022 at 9:51 am

              I suspect that Ad meant we as in the upper class plus the upper middle class, with the strugglers getting a trickle-down you need a microscope to measure as per the classic neoliberal prescription…

          • Hongi Ika 4.1.1.1.2
            30 January 2022 at 10:39 am

            Ad not all New Zealanders are richer with the relationship with China, a select few are making good coin, however with the importation of Chinese House Farmers our real estate prices have gone through the roof and the Average Joe can not afford a house especially if they are on minimum wages trying to bring up a family.

      • joe90 4.1.2
        30 January 2022 at 10:41 am

        Jesse sweating the destruction of the fabric of society.

        Classic Disney cartoon figure Minnie Mouse is donning a tailored suit for the 30th anniversary of Disneyland Paris, and conservative critics aren’t happy, describing the outfit change as perpetuating the destruction of the “fabric of our society.” society”.

        “Why are they doing this?” Fox News host Jesse Watters asked. “They’re bored out of their minds,” he said of those who decided it was a good idea to give the famous Disney mouse a makeover.

        https://today.in-24.com/entertainment/News/346569.html

    • joe90 4.2
      30 January 2022 at 10:36 am

      Readers roll their eyes and giggle about dildo boy.

      Props

      1. condom jar
      2. dildos
      3. Music

      a. Alicia keys [sic]
      b. 80s romance songs, things that are typically James
      c. avoid Marvin Gaye as too cliche

      4. lube
      5. ceiling mirror
      6. posters and paintings of naked women
      7. playboys [sic] and pornographic magazines
      8. candles
      9. Viagra and stamina pills
      10. fuzzy handcuffs
      11. blindfold[24]

      http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2010/09/specials/cnn.caper/index.html

      http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/James_O%27Keefe#Alleged_seduction_attempt

  5. Byd0nz 5
    30 January 2022 at 8:01 am

    When they start teaching the new version of NZ History, warts and all, will the nature of Imperialism be taught alongside or will that be ignored, because that wart is not just history, it is an ongoing evil?.

    • Jenny how to get there 5.1
      30 January 2022 at 10:24 am

      More than ongoing evil, capitalist economics predicated on endless 'growth' which gave rise to expansionism beyond national borders to seize colonies and resources, eventually crashing up against the borders of other rival capitalist powers attempting to do the same, which inevitably leads to world war, has led to something even worse.

      The endless growth economy that gave rise to imperialism, colonialism and world war has now crashed up against the natural finite limits of the planet.

      The growth economy that gave rise to colonialism and imperialism and world war, is now threatening the existence of all life on earth, through climate change.

      Will this be taught in schools?

      While we are still embarked on the same MAD course.

      Of course not.

      • Byd0nz 5.1.1
        30 January 2022 at 1:49 pm

        Well articulated, thanks.'Of course not' being the point, which means the new versian of NZ History will be sadly lacking.

  6. Peter 6
    30 January 2022 at 8:41 am

    It's worth the risk of repeating the story to highlight the crap that is coming from some quarters. I appreciate we have to be understanding and be constructive but retards should be called out. Is it possible from social media platforms to identify those responsible for stories such as this? Let them stand on their hind feet and address the nation with their wisdom.

    "Reports of death at West Coast vaccination clinic ‘complete load of rubbish’, says mayor

    Grey District mayor Tania Gibson has debunked a false rumour that a child died at a Covid-19 vaccination clinic in Greymouth.

    Misinformation circulating on social media alleged a 12-year-old child died at a vaccination clinic in Greymouth on Friday. The posts claimed a cover-up.

    “That is an absolute complete load of rubbish,” said Gibson.

    “But seeing these complete and utter fabrications coming from people who are choosing not to get vaccinated… These people are very dangerous and just very stupid.”

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/west-coast/127636498/reports-of-death-at-west-coast-vaccination-clinic-complete-load-of-rubbish-says-mayor

    • vto 6.1
      30 January 2022 at 10:09 am

      Yep, Voltaire saw the danger of these people…

      "those who are capable of believing the unbelievable are capable of committing atrocities"

      This is the risk we confront on a daily basis with our neighbours today

    • mauī 6.2
      30 January 2022 at 12:26 pm

      This is what happens when you gaslight sections of society. Personally I've got more faith in the typical coaster than the mayor.

      • Peter 6.2.1
        30 January 2022 at 2:19 pm

        Do you have more faith in the mayor or the purveyors of the bullshit about the kid dying at the vaccine centre?

      • Shanreagh 6.2.2
        30 January 2022 at 3:22 pm

        Gaslight? Really. I thought anti vaxxers were as OK with their views as pro vaxxers were of thiers.

        Who is doing the gaslighting?

        All of us who have had the vaccine, really? I don't think so. AV are fighting some mindless battle when all they need to do is make their decision and hold to it. I am assuming those making an anti vaxx decsion are making this in the knowledge of the consequences. I don't think I have seen reports of pro vaxxers shouting down people at meetings, behaving appallingly badly outside vaccination clinics.

        This so called gaslighting sounds very like a poor me attitude – viz I've made a decision that I am comfortable with and now I want to be a toad to the rest, dare I say the majority who have also made a decision and just want to get on with it.

        Is gaslighting in your world just to have a contrary stance? So all of those who are gaslighting are the ones who have had a vaccine? Really?

    • McFlock 6.3
      30 January 2022 at 4:35 pm

      Frankly I think the branch covidians have hatched a cunning plan to make up these stories so they can then go "but if it was so safe, why do the authorities have to keep denying that kids are dying?"

      • weka 6.3.1
        30 January 2022 at 4:41 pm

        that would imply a reasonable level of strategic planning that is defied by what we've seen so far.

      • joe90 6.3.2
        30 January 2022 at 6:46 pm

        They've been promised victims. Unfortunately, all those folk keeling over in the street following adverse reactions have been kept double-dare hush-hush so to fulfill the prophecy, they've had a crack at martyring themselves.

        But still no luck and now it's make up wtf you like.

      • fender 6.3.3
        30 January 2022 at 10:04 pm

        I've been called a covidian cultist by a certain someone here, no prizes for guessing.

        But I think the Covidians should be the name assigned to the anti-vaxxers. After all they have chosen to embrace the covid by inviting it into their temple with such dedication as to decline any defensive shield. That sounds like someone happy to dice with death and worthy of the name Covidian.

        Vaccinian could then be the name for those pro vaccine people the Covidians like to berate for their choice not to join the Covidian Cultists.

        • McFlock 6.3.3.1
          30 January 2022 at 10:30 pm

          Did a search for first use of it at TS.

          Andre had a good 'un in june 2020 calling dolt45 the "coronakoresh" and his followers the "Branch Covidians", but it seems I Feel Love was the first to use the term in a comment.

  7. Dennis Frank 7
    30 January 2022 at 9:06 am

    Govt needs a marketing wiz:

    Only 26 per cent of voters support the Government’s Three Waters reform, according to the latest 1News Kantar Public Poll. The poll indicates 40 per cent of voters are opposed to the reforms, while 35 per cent were either unsure or didn’t know they were happening.

    https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/01/29/poll-more-voters-against-three-waters-than-support/

    Since the status quo seems to be nationwide mismanagement with pockets of competence here & there, a genuinely progressive policy containing realistic solutions is what we need. What we lack is faith in Labour's ability to provide that…

    • Blazer 7.1
      30 January 2022 at 9:14 am

      'while 35 per cent were either unsure or didn’t know they were happening.'

      I imagine this would be a consistent faction about most things ,that people think don't impact them…directly.

      • Dennis Frank 7.1.1
        30 January 2022 at 9:48 am

        I agree. The upside for Labour is that all they need to do to rescue the thing is a classic sales job. Hire a pr company or ad agency if there's nobody capable on the team!

  8. Tony Veitch (not etc.) 8
    30 January 2022 at 10:15 am

    Just catching up with yesterday's Open Mike: my God, Weka has the patience of a saint!

    And I notice the negativity became so pronounced that several others commented on it as well.

    Well done all those who do what is best for our whole society!

    • weka 8.1
      30 January 2022 at 11:46 am

      mate, you should have seen what my morning's been like. I’m alternating TS with gardening to retain my composure 😇

  9. Blazer 9
    30 January 2022 at 10:36 am

    Sandra and others have been waiting awhile…Australia recently approved Novavax

    Novavax's strength in cross-protection against new variants was further demonstrated in the stellar results of its booster study showing its vaccine produced high levels of neutralizing antibodies against Omicron. Its booster increased antibodies against the omicron 73.5-fold, and was more effective in stopping Omicron from entering cells than other vaccines.

    Moreover, SII has been conducting a phase 3 efficacy trial of Novavax since last February. Grant, India's task force member, said SII told him the Novavax vaccine is "extremely effective" against Omicron, in the vicinity of 90%.

    He added: "I think it is extremely important that everybody be given the third shot and as quickly as possible. Now, what we have found is that people who are taking Covishield, the third shot has not been so effective. But the new vaccine that is coming out from Serum Institute, Covovax, is very, very effective. In fact, against the Omicron virus, if you've taken the new vaccine of Serum, we are finding fantastic results."

    I think most investors didn't see the interview on Indian TV. When SII announces the results, it could be a game-changer by making Novavax the only vaccine with high efficacy against Omicron. Novavax has also been doing a large booster trial during the Omicron wave in the US. I expect it will announce results in March or April.

    It's incorrect to predict Covid is becoming endemic or that future variants won't be more severe

    In September, a physician wrote: "Covid will soon be endemic…" and "widespread immunity, vaccinated and natural, will bring control and a full return to normal". Since then, the delta and omicron waves have killed another 180,000 in the US. Now, some media outlets and officials are repeating the same mistake by predicting Covid will be endemic this year.'

  10. Hongi Ika 10
    30 January 2022 at 10:41 am

    Ad not all New Zealanders are richer with the relationship with China, a select few are making good coin, however with the importation of Chinese House Farmers our real estate prices have gone through the roof and the Average Joe can not afford a house especially if they are on minimum wages trying to bring up a family.

    • Shanreagh 10.1
      30 January 2022 at 3:24 pm

      Just love the 'house farmers' quote.

    • Blazer 10.2
      30 January 2022 at 3:59 pm

      ' with the importation of Chinese House Farmers '-no.no…they only had Chinese sounding….names…they weren't Chinese…the Natz said so.

  11. joe90 11
    30 January 2022 at 10:46 am

    Oh, look! It's all about the money!

    /

    A group of vaccine-sceptic writers are generating revenues of at least $2.5m (£1.85m) a year from publishing newsletters for tens of thousands of followers on the online publishing platform Substack, according to new research.

    Prominent figures in the anti-vaccine movement including Dr Joseph Mercola and Alex Berenson have large followings on Substack, which has more than 1 million paying subscribers who sign up for individual newsletters from an array of authors who include novelist Salman Rushdie, the writer musician Patti Smith and former Downing Street adviser Dominic Cummings.

    Mercola, a US alternative medicine doctor and prolific producer of anti-vaccine content, and Alex Berenson, a journalist banned from Twitter last year after questioning the efficacy of Covid-19 vaccines, are among five vaccine sceptics on the platform who earn themselves and Substack a minimum of $2.5m a year from their newsletters. Under Substack’s business model, writers keep about 90% of the subscription income, with the platform taking 10% and payment company Stripe charging the writers 3% of their take.

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/jan/27/anti-vaxxers-making-at-least-25m-a-year-from-publishing-on-substack

    • fender 11.1
      30 January 2022 at 11:22 am

      Well he's not able to enter the pub, so is currently getting bounced on his mummy's knee, but will be along shortly to give you a telling off.

      • I Feel Love 11.1.1
        30 January 2022 at 1:37 pm

        & the likes of Rogan et al will say any old bullshit if it pays well. Suckers lap it up.

  12. Bearded Git 12
    30 January 2022 at 11:23 am

    Here is what Robert Malone, the vaccine skeptic reportedly interviewed by Rogan in a favourable manner on Spotify [I haven't heard the interview], has been been saying about Covid vaccines.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/08/robert-malone-vaccine-inventor-vaccine-skeptic/619734/

    • Dennis Frank 12.1
      30 January 2022 at 11:48 am

      Interesting. I wonder why he bailed out before getting his PhD? Instead of becoming a fully-fledged microbiologist he switched & got an MD instead.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_W._Malone

      Genuinely in the running for a Nobel, but too eccentric to be a team player is my take. Anti-establishment (like me). I agree he's onto something here:

      https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-coronavirus-psychology-idUSL1N2TN1RE

      “Mass formation psychosis” is not an academic term recognized in the field of psychology, nor is there evidence of any such phenomenon occurring during the COVID-19 pandemic, multiple experts in crowd psychology have told Reuters.

      Experts playing it safe is nothing new. The thing is happening. It will become clear to them in retrospect. However this expert is credible as a sceptic:

      Reuters also spoke to Steven Reicher, Professor of Social Psychology at the University of St Andrews, who has studied crowd psychology for more than 40 years. He described the concept of a “mass psychosis” as “more metaphor than science, more ideology than fact”.

      “It arises out of mass society theories and crowd psychology theories which developed in the 19th century, and which reflected a fear of the masses,” he said. “The claim was that people in the mass lose their sense of identity and their ability to reason, they regress to an inferior mental state where they are manipulable by unscrupulous leaders. It has been totally discredited by contemporary work on groups and crowds.”

      There was a famous 19th book on the madness of crowds and one sees it in capitalist bubbles & crashes. The phenomenon is real. I suspect the expert sees a technical distinction between that & nazism but cultism is a common feature of mass psychology. Perhaps the ivory tower syndrome is at play here – invent a complex meme & the academic herd collectively shudder at you…

    • Dennis Frank 12.2
      30 January 2022 at 12:43 pm

      Also, there's a balanced, nuanced appraisal here: https://www.psychologytoday.com/nz/blog/psych-unseen/202201/does-mass-formation-psychosis-really-exist

      we also had psychiatrists tell the American public that Donald Trump was mentally unfit to be President because he had a psychiatric disorder.

      we have mental health professionals on both sides of the political fence using psychiatric terms irresponsibly to advance political views.

      • joe90 12.2.1
        30 January 2022 at 12:58 pm

        Google 28 Jan 2018 – 28 Jun 2020 and zip references to mass formation psychosis.

        • Dennis Frank 12.2.1.1
          30 January 2022 at 1:25 pm

          Well I struck gold with one of them:

          In DSM-IV it is called shared psychotic disorder. The term was first coined by Lasegue and Falret in 1877. It refers to several syndromes in which mental symptoms, particularly paranoid delusions, are transmitted from one person to one or more others with whom the apparent instigator is in some way intimately associated

          In some way intimately associated nowadays points to social media. Like-mindedness was a characteristic of in-crowd groups centuries ago. Freemasonry developed into a force at the top level of politics on exactly that basis, and of course there was the history of christianity exemplifying it before that.

          The scaling up from a small group to larger groups via contagion is the thing that the competing label ownership bitching amongst professionals seems to focus on. Consultancy generates a money flow – you can see why they get dollar signs in their eyes.

          • joe90 12.2.1.1.1
            30 January 2022 at 1:29 pm

            Well you would if you googled shared psychotic disorder.

            • Dennis Frank 12.2.1.1.1.1
              30 January 2022 at 1:43 pm

              Did that. All you get is a focus on the past. To figure out what's happening now, we need a focus on current belief-based forums & media – to suss out the contagion mechanism. Although the term mechanism is itself antique.

              What causes the interpersonal resonance that produces mimetics seems the most promising place to start…

              • joe90 …
                30 January 2022 at 2:06 pm

                There is no contagion mechanism. There's only people rightly shit-scared of being infected by a virus that can invade and jigger almost very organ and system in your carcass and then for shit and giggles, cross the blood brain barrier and fuck with pretty much every aspect of your neurology.

  14. Anker 14
    30 January 2022 at 1:03 pm

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10445679/Lia-Thomas-UPenn-teammate-says-trans-swimmer-doesnt-cover-genitals-locker-room.html
    Article from the Daily Mail about trans swimmer Lia Thomas who is male bodied but under inclusionary policies is allowed to compete in womens swimming competitions and they are smashing swimming records in the womens division.

    young women are speaking up about having Lia in their change room. It’s not pretty.

    • weka 14.1
      30 January 2022 at 1:09 pm

      cue liberal men telling women they should just look the other way.

      • Anker 14.1.1
        30 January 2022 at 5:33 pm

        Or cue liberal men just ignorning it……………..afterall Lia's rights more important in women and girls feeling deeply uncomfortable in their change room

    • fender 14.2
      30 January 2022 at 6:00 pm

      These rules are just ridiculous. Basically it's a cross-dresser allowed to compete against woman. I must be slow because I was under the impression a trans whatever had undergone a sex change. Clearly I need to do more homework.

      • Anker 14.2.1
        30 January 2022 at 7:04 pm

        Thanks Fender.

        You are not slow. This stuff is happening by stealth. None of what is going on overseas is published in the NZ msm. Just puff pieces about being non binary etc.

        The gender self id bill that was passed by NZ parliament just before Christmas allows anyone to change the sex on their birth certificate with merely a sign off from a Justice of the Peace. So you don't need to change a thing e.g. have cross sex hormones or surgery. If you are a man, you don't even have to present as a women.

        There are huge safe guarding issues here. Not only are these women in the US having competitions stolen from them, they have to put up with seeing male genitals in their change rooms. And they don't speak up because they are competing for sponsorship, scholarships etc. If they did speak up (other than anonymously) they will be accused of transphobia

        • fender 14.2.1.1
          30 January 2022 at 7:45 pm

          I don't believe that men pretending to be woman should be allowed to enter a women's event. It's deception and cheating to call yourself a woman until you've at least had the courage of your convictions to have surgery to resemble a woman physically. If these new rules are universal then what happens when a rugby team fields fifteen men pretending to be woman in order to win the Womans Rugby World Cup.

          The simplest and fairest way around all this nonsense is to have a completely new category for competition. Nobody can fake a disability and enter the Special Olympics, so why is this charade going on.

          • weka 14.2.1.1.1
            30 January 2022 at 7:54 pm

            I don't think surgery removes the physical advantage that males have over females, so from my perspective surgery wouldn't change the situation much. A lot of the advantage is conferred at puberty, and in Thomas's case from a career as a male swimmer.

            The trans umbrella now covers transsexuals (the kind of trans you are thinking of, typically have gender dysphoria and medical/surgical transition gives them a better quality of life), cross-dressing men, non-binary males, gender fluid males, and the transness that gender identity activists won't talk about: autogynephillia. In addition there will be men who fake it. Who knows which Thomas is.

            • fender 14.2.1.1.1.1
              30 January 2022 at 8:31 pm

              "I don't think surgery removes the physical advantage that males have over females, so from my perspective surgery wouldn't change the situation much."

              I agree. Heard an interview on RNZ last year where it was explained how the high testosterone levels during puberty increased muscle power to such a degree that it's patently unfair. New categories are the only fair way for these sporting events to have any integrity.

              • Anker …
                30 January 2022 at 10:37 pm

                You are right Fender, the surgery is just cosmetic and imo should only be offered to people who are 25 years old or so (brain fully developed then). It is plastic surgery, so will never alter the dna, bone structure, muscle structure, larger heart and lungs, adventageous hip bones, bigger hands and feet, all of which are some of the advantages male bodied people have over females in sport.

        • weka 14.2.1.2
          30 January 2022 at 7:57 pm

          this article is interesting. Comparing the situation with doping, and pointing out that Thomas isn't doping. But in a way they are. If they are taking a drug to alter their performance so that it gives them an advantage (in this case allows them to change categories), then it's not substantially different.

          https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/without-ncaa-action-the-effects-of-lia-thomas-situation-are-akin-to-doping/

          I wonder if the issue wouldn't be better resolved by allow trans women to compete in male categories and have rules around drug use for that. No idea if that would work, but given that TW athlete's bodies are much closer to men's than women's it makes more sense.

  16. joe90 16
    30 January 2022 at 1:26 pm

    So sad the sociopath won't be able to turn a dollar on his notoriety.

    A U.S. judge on Friday approved an agreement by lawyers to destroy the assault-style rifle that Kyle Rittenhouse used to kill two people and wound a third during a 2020 street protest in Wisconsin.

    https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/kyle-rittenhouse-gun-from-kenosha-shootings-to-be-destroyed-1.5758029

  17. Adrian 17
    30 January 2022 at 1:30 pm

    So twice as many people are coming in than 2 years ago, possibly some who sat out their two year visas or more likely stupidly left NZ and went Tiki-touring , like Dippy Jamie Ridge or the pair who motorhomed around the Aussie grandkids "cos we hadn't seen them for two years and its not fair they won't let us back in ". Its a fucking world wide pandemic killing millions and millions you dumb fucks , what were you thinking, oh that right, you bloody weren't!

    There is also something of a bullshit story here with Charlotte Bellis, international journalist living overseas in all sorts of places and 6 months pregnant, suddenly needs to be in NZ to have a baby , Why? Flies to Afghanistan for fucks sake, that world exemplar of natal care, Why ?. To garner fucking sympathy. What's wrong with the fathers home country? Have your baby in a bloody cave the same way that the poor, put upon, disadvantaged Afghani women have had to do do for millennia. You created this situation, you deal with it. Supreme entitlement syndrome.

    We haven't seen our London based daughter for years and miss her lots but we aren't grandstanding on the media with choruses of it's not fairs.

    • weka 17.1
      30 January 2022 at 1:37 pm

      So twice as many people are coming in than 2 years ago,

      what?

      • weka 17.1.1
        30 January 2022 at 1:54 pm

        one year ago, not two years ago.

        • weka 17.1.1.1
          30 January 2022 at 1:56 pm

          and despite what Joe said, that graph has nothing to do with Bellis' case. She applied under the emergency provisions. Of course those cases should get priority.

    • weka 17.2
      30 January 2022 at 1:47 pm

      There is also something of a bullshit story here with Charlotte Bellis, international journalist living overseas in all sorts of places and 6 months pregnant, suddenly needs to be in NZ to have a baby , Why?

      Because it's routine for women to die in child birth in Afghanistan.

      Flies to Afghanistan for fucks sake, that world exemplar of natal care, Why ?. To garner fucking sympathy.

      Because she had nowhere else to go. She was in Qatar when she found out she is pregnant, and it's illegal there to be unmarried and pregnant. She initially thought she was going to be able to get back to NZ in Feb, then the government cancelled the border opening because of omicron.

      What's wrong with the fathers home country?

      He's Belgian, and as a non-resident she's only allowed there for 3 out of 6 months at a time. She's already used up half of that. She had no visa to anywhere else other than Afghanistan.

      Have your baby in a bloody cave the same way that the poor, put upon, disadvantaged Afghani women have had to do do for millennia. You created this situation, you deal with it. Supreme entitlement syndrome.

      Not surprising I guess all things considered, but seeing the misogyny arising in this way on the left is always shocking. Even if you don't give a shit about the safety of a pregnant woman, there's still the wellbeing of the child.

      She didn't create the situation. She was told by doctors that she couldn't get pregnant, the pregnancy was unplanned. I also think there are few things off about the story, but I don't for one minute think she, or any pregnant NZ woman in a country without NZ standard of medical care shouldn't be let back in as a priority. Wtaf?

      • Peter 17.2.1
        30 January 2022 at 2:26 pm

        "She was in Qatar when she found out she is pregnant, and it's illegal there to be unmarried and pregnant."

        I've been reading that some media people in the UK have scorned New Zealand as the most inhumane place on the planet, a most disgusting place.

        I'm wondering why so many are wanting to come here. And wondering if in the god forsaken place it's illegal to be unmarried and pregnant.

    • Anne 17.3
      30 January 2022 at 9:59 pm

      I agree Adrian @ 17.

      She's trying to manipulate the system using emotional tactics to gain sympathy and preferential treatment. I would hazard a guess she knew when she was still in Belgium that she did not fit the criteria for an emergency entry back to NZ. Is that why she returned to Afghanistan? She thought she could garner leverage for her 'emergency' status by being there?

      There have been plenty of people who have been in equal or worse circumstances than Ms Bellis – including pregnant women – but they have accepted their misfortune without indulging in public hysteria.

      She claims she returned to Afghanistan because she couldn't go anywhere else. That is garbage. Why didn't she contact the British Embassy for help, or one of the other Commonwealth countries? Surely one of them would have allowed her to stay until she was able to return to NZ.

      • weka 17.3.1
        30 January 2022 at 10:34 pm

        There have been plenty of people who have been in equal or worse circumstances than Ms Bellis – including pregnant women – but they have accepted their misfortune without indulging in public hysteria.

        Really? Bellis' lawyer has been taken a number of other cases of pregnant women who've been denied emergency MiQ.

        She claims she returned to Afghanistan because she couldn't go anywhere else. That is garbage. Why didn't she contact the British Embassy for help, or one of the other Commonwealth countries? Surely one of them would have allowed her to stay until she was able to return to NZ.

        "Surely" 🙄

        She's not British.

        Please note the following important information:

        • The United Kingdom authorities determine the conditions under which New Zealand passport holders may enter the UK.
        • It is your responsibility to ensure that you comply with entry requirements for the United Kingdom.
        • Failure to meet these requirements could result in you being refused entry and returned to New Zealand or your last point of embarkation.
        • The New Zealand High Commission cannot interfere in this decision. We have no authority or ability to influence the decisions made by the Border Force or Border Force officers, or make representations on an individual's behalf.

        https://www.mfat.govt.nz/en/countries-and-regions/europe/united-kingdom/new-zealand-high-commission/living-in-the-uk/uk-citizenship-and-visas/

  18. Adrian 18
    30 January 2022 at 1:48 pm

    Weka, See Joe90 at 12pm there is a graph in a tweet in his post.. I couldn't believe it either. Bellis's partner is Belgian, and she left Belgium?. Shes Anglican but asked the Catholic Church if she could get married there in Belgium, but there's a 6 month wait. Oh Christ the unfairness, won't somebody think of poor me.

    • weka 18.1
      30 January 2022 at 1:55 pm

      I just explained why she can't stay in Belgium.

      Are you saying that she could get married now and then get residency in Belgium?

    • Sabine 18.2
      30 January 2022 at 9:27 pm

      It seems really hard to believe but as a Kiwi you need a Visa for the countries that abide by the Schengen Accord.

      What she should have done is take the next train to Germany, or even do it in Belgium/Holland/Luxemburg/France and simply ask for Asylum as a stateless person. She would have been granted it, pretty sure of it.

      • weka 18.2.1
        30 January 2022 at 9:39 pm

        Would that have affected her other options?

        Isn't asylum for people being persecuted? Maybe she doesn't think she should be using that process given who it is designed for.

        • Sabine 18.2.1.1
          30 January 2022 at 10:02 pm

          No, there are different criteria for asylum in europe. For what its worth, she could have demanded asylum in a roman catholic church and would have been granted it at least for a wee while, and during this time she could have sorted something more permanent with a different host country.

          She is defacto stateless as are all other Kiwis that can not simply board a plane and come back home. In essence she is dependend on good fortune and a government willing to allow people to come back, and it appears she is out of luck on that one.

          I have been waiting for something like this to happen, in fact i am waiting for someone to take the government to the human rights tribunal over this.

          But as a stateless person she can apply for Asylum and she would be granted it.

          While stateless people can be recognized as refugees and can apply for asylum the regular way, they are more vulnerable and often enjoy fewer rights than other refugees: … – Stateless people can be at greater risk of being detained or forcibly returned because of lack of identity documents.

          https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/11941/living-in-limbo-europes-stateless-refugees#:~:text=While%20stateless%20people%20can%20be,fewer%20rights%20than%20other%20refugees%3A&text=%2D%20Stateless%20people%20can%20be%20at,of%20lack%20of%20identity%20documents.

          And i would like to point out that if NZ'lers overseas now can't even vote in the next election then they are truly stateless and without a government.

          • weka 18.2.1.1.1
            30 January 2022 at 10:36 pm

            Why can't they vote?

            I'd like to see something official saying that any NZer overseas currently is stateless.

            • Sabine 18.2.1.1.1.1
              30 January 2022 at 10:40 pm

              i think it is to do with time requirements as to how long you are out of the country.

              Here is the Green Party on that issue:

              https://www.greens.org.nz/kiwis_overseas_must_be_allowed_to_vote_next_year

              New Zealanders stranded overseas should be allowed to vote in next year’s local government elections and the 2023 general election, the Green Party said today.

              “The reality of this pandemic is lots of people cannot renew their voting rights when they are home as they normally would. The Government must extend the three-year timeframe so New Zealanders can still exercise their democratic rights,” Green Party electoral reform spokesperson Golriz Ghahraman said.

              Anyways, it still changes nothing on the fact that the stranded kiwis overseas are essentially stateless unless they are allowed without and ifs whys and buts to return.

              • weka …
                30 January 2022 at 10:47 pm

                ah, that makes sense. They should definitely change that.

                • Sabine …
                  30 January 2022 at 10:50 pm

                  Well that press relieve was from September last year, lets hope they get cracking on that, a lot of the overseas vote does tend to go to L or G. Maybe that will help them getting it done. 🙂

                  • weka …
                    30 January 2022 at 10:52 pm

                    heh, probably. I reckon it won't be top of Labour's list at the moment given it's more than 18 months until the next election. They still seem to think the borders are going to be open in a few months.

              • weka …
                30 January 2022 at 10:50 pm

                Can't see how Bellis' fit this criteria,

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statelessness

                She still has a NZ passport, and she's still allowed back in via the lottery system. The lottery system is fucked up, and it may well be making people temporarily defacto stateless, but I doubt international law will see it that way (we will see I guess).

                • Sabine …
                  30 January 2022 at 10:52 pm

                  The passport is useless without a spot in MIQ. If she can't come home because she will be denied entry then she is stateless and should / could demand asylum elsewhere.

                  Currently her passport has about as much value as a call to Winz that is not answered. You might have theoretical access, but it is not given or granted.

                  • weka …
                    30 January 2022 at 10:53 pm

                    I'm still wanting to see something official that says she, and others, fit the international legal definition of stateless.

                    • weka …
                      30 January 2022 at 10:55 pm

                      To be published in Refuge, Volume 22:2, Summer 2004
                      IV. Determining Statelessness
                      27. The 1954 Convention provides the internat ionally recognized definition of a
                      stateless person in Article 1 of the instrum ent.21 This is the ba sis on which States c an
                      determine at the nation al lev el to whom the Convention will app ly. It is also th e
                      appropriate basis for harmonization of approaches as between States. Each State Party
                      determines through its own proced ures whet her a person fits th e definition of a
                      stateless person outlined in Article 1. Clearly, th e first criterion for application of the
                      Convention to an individual is that the pe rson is found by the State concerned to be
                      stateless.22
                      28. If the person is found not to be st ateless, the Convention will not be
                      applicable. Existing State pr actice in the EU varies, with very f ew of the M ember
                      States possessing a specialised procedure dedi cated to examining an applicant’s claim
                      of stateles sness. If, however, States do not approach Article 1 with a comm on
                      interpretation or application, it will be impossible to harmonize implementation of the
                      Convention overall or, indeed, for decisions taken by one State party to be recognized
                      as between States parties. Th is could m ean that a s ingle case will arriv e at vary ing
                      results depending on the State in which the stateless person makes an application. A s
                      one of the key objectives of the 1954 Conven tion is to prom ote the acquisition of a
                      legal identity for a stateless person in one State, which will be widely recognized by
                      other States, a lack of harm onized interpretation or implementation of Article 1 r isks
                      limiting the benefits of this instrument for both States and individuals concerned.
                      i. Definition of a stateless person
                      29. The definition, set out in Article 1( 1) provides that a stateless person is one
                      “who is not considered as a national by any State under the operation of its law.” Thi s
                      is the definition used at the international level and is incorporated into the nationality
                      laws of m any States. 23 By indicating that a statele ss person is som eone who is not
                      considered a national by any State under the operation of its law , the drafters refer to
                      a legal bond between an indivi dual and a State w hich is based on the internal laws of
                      the State concerned.

                      https://www.refworld.org/docid/415c3cfb4.html

                    • Sabine …
                      31 January 2022 at 8:39 am

                      it still does not change anything for anyone over seas.

                      Asylum is for everyone, anyone can claim it. It is up to the host country if this person fits into international agreements and treaties. And if she was offered Asylum as a de facto stateless person rather then say a refugee of war (and i guess one could claim this status too considering we are at 'war' with this virus) than that is up to the host country.

                      It is up to NZ to find a better solution to this current debacle, and the NZ Political elite would do better to come up with a more humane set up and process.

                      but maybe these guy can give you an answer more to your liking?

                      https://news.aut.ac.nz/news/the-legal-rights-of-kiwis-coming-home

                      And under the guise of Covid measures, Kiwis right to return is severely curtailed if not outright made impossible – under the guise of 'keeping people here safe'. Ergo, They are Stateless.

                      stateless

                      /ˈsteɪtləs/

                      1. (of a person) not recognized as a citizen of any country.

                      And unless she is one of the lucky few to win in a lottery (hunger games by any other name) then yeah, she is not recognized a citizen.

                    • weka …
                      31 January 2022 at 9:28 am

                      I've been saying for ages that MiQ needs to be fixed.

                      And unless she is one of the lucky few to win in a lottery (hunger games by any other name) then yeah, she is not recognized a citizen.

                      This hyperbole doesn't help. She still has rights, overseas, as a NZ passport holder. Those didn't disappear because of MiQ.

                    • Sabine …
                      31 January 2022 at 10:48 am

                      Comparing MIQ to the hunger games is not hyperbole, its been a fucking reality for people stuck overseas that can't come home, or for people here that need to travel (NEED, not want) but can't unless they win the lottery. What needs to happen now is actually for lefties to demand better of their own parties and their own government. Not that your party and the ruling party would listen.

                      As for the international rules regarding refugees, every country has their own interpretation underneath the rules that you listed. So if a country decides that that women is akin to being a refugee – or is seeking refugee because her own country, her own government refuses to let her travel back 'home', then yes she is a refugee. It does not matter one bit how bad that makes the country or the current lot in parliament look to the world. That is something for this government to consider and maybe even do something about it, someday. surely.

                      There was no reason for Germany to take up one million Syrian refugees in 2015 -by international standard and law, but they did take up one million Syrian refugees because of humanitarian reasons. While the two go hand in hand, they are quite different from each others. Refuge is something in Europe that anyone can claim, Refuge or Asylum is still granted in Churches, and not everything fits into some neat and tidy laws that allow others to point out why they should not have done what they did on the basis that it might not be explicitely listed as a ‘valid’ reason for a refugee and asylum claim.

                      She was granted refuge by a host country because the host country decided that she fit that host countries requirements, under the current laws. And the shame about this is for NZ to bear.

                      btw, those million syrians are doing well.
                      https://www.cgdev.org/blog/five-years-later-one-million-refugees-are-thriving-germany#:~:text=In%202015%2C%20large%20numbers%20of,Iraq%20arrived%20on%20Europe's%20shores.&text=In%202015%20and%202016%2C%20Germany,million%20first%2Dtime%20asylum%20applications.

                    • weka …
                      31 January 2022 at 10:57 am

                      Comparing MIQ to the hunger games is not hyperbole,

                      Just as well I didn't say that then. Didn't read past that sentence, because it's a waste of time if you are not going to understand my points.

                    • Sabine …
                      31 January 2022 at 11:05 am

                      ME : And unless she is one of the lucky few to win in a lottery (hunger games by any other name) then yeah, she is not recognized a citizen.

                      Weka: This hyperbole doesn't help. She still has rights, overseas, as a NZ passport holder. Those didn't disappear because of MiQ

                      Yes, you said what you said, and i read past your line, hence why i stated that right now anyone who can not get in NZ because of the fuckwittery that is MIQ – and the refusal over the last two years to refuse any changes to the MIQ system, means her rights are not being upheld by this government.

                      And frankly for what its worth, the government is having so much egg on their faces that the best they now can do is put a category up for pregnant beings that need to come home. She is not hte only one, she is just someone with enough clout to make a ruckus and its obvious she really don't care anymore.

                      This government has made people a. stateless, b. dependent on the generosity of other countries, and hopes that other countries not only vaccinate these people, but house them – if they can't afford it anymore without working visas, feed them, and medically take care of them.

                      This government has totally dropped the ball on the people stuck overseas, so much so that the Green Party at this stage must fear for their voters overseas, as evidenced by the link from yesterday that i posted for you, because these guys will loose their right to vote if laws are applies as they stand. So no right to retun and a possible loss of the vote. That is not Hyperbole Weka, that is reality for people overseas under this government.

                      Personally i believe that the Kiwis stuck in OZ should all start committing crimes in OZ so that they are deported as 503 back to NZ. Maybe that will allow poeple to come back home.

                    • weka …
                      31 January 2022 at 11:43 am

                      some of her rights, she hasn't lost all her rights. That's the hyberbole that I think is unhelpful. I know it's your commenting style, but I think the point is important.

                      (haven't read the rest of that comment either, because I really don't want to spend time on things where I'm being misunderstood, sorry. I think your comments about the legal and human rights issues re MiQ are important, I just can't dig through all of that atm).

                  • Blazer …
                    31 January 2022 at 11:08 am

                    'Personally i believe that the Kiwis stuck in OZ should all start committing crimes in OZ so that they are deported as 503 back to NZ. Maybe that will allow poeple to come back home.'

                    It seems that people who are sentenced for 12 months or more are the ones selected for deportation.

                    Doubt your advice would be viewed as helpful by any sane…person.

      • Graeme 18.2.2
        30 January 2022 at 9:50 pm

        It appears that's what has happened

        https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/stranded-kiwi-journalist-offered-asylum

        No details where, but not Belgium or Afghanistan

        Asylum has a stateless aspect to it as well, Which Bellis would meet as the States which she is resident of, or citizen of, are unable to provide the care of the state for a variety of reasons.

      • Koff 18.2.3
        30 January 2022 at 10:25 pm

        She could have hopped over the Channel to England, which isn't in Schengen. After 3 months you can go back into any Schengen country. She sounds a pretty ballsy woman and rightly pissed off about misjudging her return to NZ, but hardly anything she wouldn't have been prepared for staying on in Afghanistan when she could have returned earlier.

        • Sabine 18.2.3.1
          30 January 2022 at 10:42 pm

          She was not pregnant earlier and thus had no need to return earlier and thus made no attempt to return.

      • Blazer 18.2.4
        31 January 2022 at 9:08 am

        NZ included-'

        'Who doesn’t need a Schengen Visa?

        Nationals of certain countries, enjoy visa-free travel to these countries for stays of up to 90 days. There are 62 countries whose citizens do not need to visa'

        Who Needs a Schengen Visa and Who Doesn't – Eligible and Visa Free Countries – Visa Reservation

        • Sabine 18.2.4.1
          31 January 2022 at 10:40 am

          yes, and no.

          sorry dude.

          Yes, New Zealanders can work in Europe without having to apply for a work visa beforehand.

          However, upon their arrival to the country where they will be working, NZ passport holders are required to apply for their local residence and work permit.

          So she did not need a Visa to travel to Belgium, and if only staying there as a tourist can stay there for up to three month – ditto for someone from Belgium coming here, but anything more then that she needs to apply for a visa, and that visa can be refused, and in her case was probably refused because she is pregnant and will need neonatal, birthing, and post natal care.

          What she should have done is fly to OZ, commit a crime and get deported to NZ. s/

          ETIAS for New Zealanders | Europe Visa Waiver Requirements

          • Blazer 18.2.4.1.1
            31 January 2022 at 11:05 am

            Why bother with..OZ…

            'It is very important to be aware that it is illegal for an unmarried woman to be pregnant in Qatar. The consequences of the authorities discovering that a single woman is pregnant include jail and deportation, '

            She worked for the Qatar Govt and is well connected enought to even ring the Taleban hierarchy .

            • Sabine 18.2.4.1.1.1
              31 January 2022 at 11:11 am

              did you read the word "jail' before deportation?

              or did you miss that?

              She will be jailed. She will be jailed for as long as it takes to get there their deportation case actioned. \

              She is pregnant. She is a citizen. She wants to come home. And fwiw, she would not be applying to MIQ if she weren't pregnant.

              And last, she is a Citizen. She has a right to return to NZ. And hte government has dropped the ball on MIQ sometime ago and decided that they just could not be bothered picking that ball up and making it workable.

              I just right now enjoy how she upsets all the 'kind' and 'loving' and 'empathic' lefties into a frothy furor at her audacity to call out the bullshittery that is MIQ, and the fact that Kiwis overseas are stateless and are being granted Refugee Status by the likes of hte Taliban. You can't make that shit up actually. How dare she, to witch i say, behold her field of fucks to grow and see it is barren.

              • Blazer …
                31 January 2022 at 11:16 am

                No,I didn't miss the word 'jail'.

                I also understand that she worked for this repressive regime at AJ,with no qualms.

                Qatar is hosting the worlds biggest sporting event this year…The Football World Cup.

                It would be political suicide to jail this woman on that score…alone.

  19. Whispering Kate 19
    30 January 2022 at 1:59 pm

    Adrian I see where you are coming from on your comments. A bit harsh on the hapless folk overseas but yes you are right. People who think two years is a vast time to be apart from family just need to take a reality check. Missing grandchildren after a two year absence is a nonsense – use Zoom its fun and wow – actually seeing their faces like they are in the same room as you.

    We also have absent family and haven't seen them for over three years, they have been living overseas now for 23 years. Its the way of the world these days, the planet has shrunk and we just have to adjust and get on with our lives. I also cannot understand why anybody would want to go overseas doing this pandemic. The PM has advised often enough how uncertain getting back might be for them. They just need a reality check and get used to the idea. Keep up the zooming, its a lot of fun and better than the weekly aerogram I sent to my parents when I was on my OE many years ago. We don't know how lucky we are.smiley

    • weka 19.1
      30 January 2022 at 2:03 pm

      my reading of Ellis, supposition really, is that given the kind of work she does she was ok with getting stuck outside of NZ and taking risks with her personal safety. Pregnancy changed that, not hard to understand.

  20. greywarshark 20
    30 January 2022 at 2:16 pm

    From Bernard Hickey's current summary on happenings:

    <i>Meanwhile, the top selling vehicle by a country mile last year was the diesel-powered Ford Ranger (12,580 sales), which weighs in at two tonnes and generates 20 times more carbon emissions per kilometre as a petrol-electric hybrid hatchback.</i>

    https://twitter.com/bernardchickey?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp

    %5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

    (Don't know how to manage Twitter)

    We are getting hassled about cars, parking being taken away, being menaced by fast-ridden bikes and electric skateboards on the footpath and yet some controlling rules on behemoths that straddle one and a half lanes, block vision on forward traffic, and are a big blot on the landscape, are absent or making little effect.

  21. joe90 21
    30 January 2022 at 2:59 pm

    Today I found out that if you google your favourite animal on a smartphone, it gives you an option to use the camera to project a full scale 3D image. And you can embiggen it.

    https://developerpublish.com/google-3d-animals-a-detailed-explanation/

  22. joe90 22
    30 January 2022 at 3:19 pm

    And there was me thinking they're Canadians, they're alright.

    While Indigenous and Black people are killed for speaking up, white supremacists get a free pass in Canada. Just look at the convoy

    This convoy, which I refuse to link with truckers or “freedom”, shows us who is allowed to speak up in this country, and who will be arrested, attacked and threatened for doing so, Joy Henderson writes.

    https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/2022/01/29/while-indigenous-and-black-people-are-killed-for-speaking-up-white-supremacists-get-a-free-pass-in-canada-just-look-at-the-convoy.html

  23. Adrian 23
    30 January 2022 at 3:32 pm

    To Weka, I had intended to wish the child to be all the best but ran out of time and forgot for which I am sorry, and far from misogynistic I like most am appalled by the lot of women in places such as Afghanistan and such travesty’s have hardened my attitude to religion and the patriarchy that run most of them. A pox on all thier houses. I am only a few generations away in this country, much like the rest of the world from having been born in a cave or other less than suitable accommodation.

    • weka 23.1
      30 January 2022 at 4:35 pm

      then why on earth would you want a woman to "have your baby in a bloody cave"?

      That's the misogyny right there, not Afghanistan, but thinking that any woman should do that because you see them as having made poor choices.

      • Patricia Bremner 23.1.1
        30 January 2022 at 6:55 pm

        Who recently got angry and said "Fuck Labour" by implication Ardern. We all say and write things in anger which don't represent us.

        • weka 23.1.1.1
          30 January 2022 at 6:59 pm

          Please explain how saying fuck Ardern would be misogynistic.

          (if I wanted to say fuck Ardern, I would say fuck Ardern, not fuck Labour).

  24. joe90 24
    30 January 2022 at 7:09 pm

    heh

    Conspirituality

    Derek Beres, Matthew Remski, Julian Walker

    A weekly study of converging right-wing conspiracy theories and faux-progressive wellness utopianism. At best, the conspirituality movement attacks public health efforts in times of crisis. At worst, it fronts and recruits for the fever-dream of QAnon. As the alt-right and New Age horseshoe toward each other in a blur of disinformation, clear discourse and good intentions get smothered.
    Charismatic influencers exploit their followers by co-opting conspiracy theories on a spectrum of intensity ranging from vaccines to child trafficking. In the process, spiritual beliefs that have nurtured creativity and meaning are transforming into memes of a quickly-globalizing paranoia. Conspirituality Podcast attempts to bring understanding to this landscape. A journalist, a cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic discuss the stories, cognitive dissonances, and cultic dynamics tearing through the yoga, wellness, and new spirituality worlds. Mainstream outlets have noticed the problem. We crowd-source, research, analyze, and dream answers to it.

    https://conspirituality.buzzsprout.com/1875696

  25. Adrian 25
    30 January 2022 at 7:41 pm

    Weka, you completely miss the point, getting pregnant wasn’t a poor choice but going to Afghanistan was an appallingly bad choice, not getting her shit together months ago by joining the MIQ queue and not following the entry requirements properly was, and now using the fact that she is pregnant in a country with sub standard maternity services as leverage is cynical in the extreme.

    • DukeEll 25.1
      30 January 2022 at 9:00 pm

      The “queue” implies you join in an orderly fashion and when it’s your turn it’s your turn.

      nothing in my previous sentence can be applied to the New Zealand MiQ procedure

    • weka 25.2
      30 January 2022 at 9:36 pm

      Weka, you completely miss the point, getting pregnant wasn’t a poor choice but going to Afghanistan was an appallingly bad choice,

      why? She's a journalist. Are you saying that journalists should go home and not report from countries like Afghanistan when Afghanistan is in the middle of a massive sociopolitical crisis?

      not getting her shit together months ago by joining the MIQ queue

      When did she find out she was pregnant? When did she apply for the emergency MiQ? What should she have done if she didn't win the MiQ lottery?

      and not following the entry requirements properly was,

      That one I agree with.

      and now using the fact that she is pregnant in a country with sub standard maternity services as leverage is cynical in the extreme.

      Ok, let's leave her there then and let her and her baby be at risk. That's cynical in the extreme.

      • Sabine 25.2.1
        30 January 2022 at 10:08 pm

        It is not just her and her child, it is everyone who can not come home. It is down right ugly, never mind illegal – unless human rights are something now that is only for Kiwis who live here -, and so unkind.

        Sad thing really is that in two years time now this fucked up MIQ process was the best our highly expensive and highly educated doodahs in government and government agencies could come up with.

        • fender 25.2.1.1
          30 January 2022 at 10:38 pm

          We just have to accept that the logistics and resources needed to cater for the numbers of people wanting to come home during a pandemic are too great for us to handle. What could have been done short of building a new city to complete such an exercise?

          • weka 25.2.1.1.1
            30 January 2022 at 10:51 pm

            increased MiQ facilities? It's not like NZ is short of hotels.

            • fender 25.2.1.1.1.1
              30 January 2022 at 11:17 pm

              I wonder then where people would go once exiting MIQ. We already can't house the people we have. The more coming would have lead to more leakage and outbreaks. But it looks conceivable that in the not too distant future there could be so much Omicron around there won't be much of a requirement for the system?

              • weka …
                31 January 2022 at 12:06 am

                well when Labour open the borders and let all the tourists, workers and immigration back in, there won't be enough housing for returning Kiwis then either.

                (doubt we have a shortage of accommodation currently, more it's the cost issue and logistics).

  26. Adrian 26
    30 January 2022 at 10:37 pm

    Our response at keeping NZers as safe as possible has been better than any other country, 55 deaths in 2 years, minimal Long Covid as far as we know. The World Standard. Right at the start everybody overseas was told come home now or you are on your own, or face isolation on return. It worked and a lot of people we all know are almost certainly only alive today because of the superb management. Do not forget that. The carping and whinging and attempts at gaming the system going on now pisses me off.

  27. Anne 27
    30 January 2022 at 11:05 pm

    "The carping and whinging and attempts at gaming the system going on now pisses me off."

    Yep. Its only a minority of NZers who are doing it. The majority accept things are the way they are for good reason, and though it might have gone against them are prepared to wait patiently for when they can also return.

  28. Ann 28
    31 January 2022 at 12:52 am

    It seems to me that the emotional reaction is foremost in people before the logical questions get asked. This is a woman who was in Afghanistan as a journalist and had contact as such with Taliban. Subsequently according to the Guardian of UK, she found herself pregnant when in Quatar. She left Al Jazeera and went to Belgium which is the country of the baby's father but there she has no entry rights and seemingly he isn't helping? What about a visa and self-financing until able to go home? From a safe place in Belgium because NZ was closed with Covid regulations, she decided to go back to Afghanistan with assurances from the Taliban? Is this really true or even possible and who in their right minds would choose to go back there when not even employed any more as a journalist and pregnant? Just to use speciall allocation rights for quick entry back home? Apparently the dates offered were not OK for her so she chose to delay. I can't believe following this that the immediate sinners are apparently the inhumane government services in NZ. What is wrong with logic and responsability today? The rest of the world looks at NZ with admiration. This story shows the lack of respect for rights of real cases of desperation in Afghanistan from one young NZ lady. Amazing. So easy to criticize knowing little of the real facts and so easy to abuse the good countries with good systems. I am not a NZer. I think you should be applauding your government trying to keep you healthy and instill a bit of responsability on people in their twenties who seem to think everything should go their way and instantly.

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