Pagani and Edwards do not understand the working class

87 comments on “Pagani and Edwards do not understand the working class ”

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1. Barfly 1

   1 November 2023 at 9:41 am

   I have absolutely no time for that pair of shills /barf
   • Bearded Git 1.1

     1 November 2023 at 12:54 pm

     Ditto
   • Patricia Bremner 1.2

     1 November 2023 at 7:01 pm

     lol same. Pair of self important fools.
     • pat 1.2.1

       1 November 2023 at 7:24 pm

       a pair of self important fools …probably (most high profile commentators are)…however that dosnt necessarily mean their observations are incorrect.

       Labour are undergoing a review of why they were so badly defeated at the election…they would do well to consider all views, though history suggests they likely will latch on to those that are convenient.
       • gsays 1.2.1.1

         1 November 2023 at 7:44 pm

         They (Labour) remind me of the Irish rugby team, 17 wins in a row, historic series win here in Aotearoa, Grand Slam, 6 Nations… not a reason to question the team or methods.

         Ardern with record high approval polling, squeaking in 2017 election, unprecedented majority MMP win in 2020. Why question anything?

         Both failed to adequately blood new talent, relied too heavily on too few individuals, didn't change tactics and ultimately got found out by a hungry opposition.
         • Tricledrown 1.2.1.1.1

           2 November 2023 at 12:57 pm

           Labour don't have many capable MP's as there are to many carpet baggers brought/bought in to electorates. 5 senior cabinet members all resigned/sacked who all were out of their depth brought this Labour govt down .from breaking lockdown by the diesel David Clark,Kiri Allen, Michael Wood. Nash etc if Kiri Allen hadn't f'd up then Labour stood a chance
       • Thinker 1.2.1.2

         1 November 2023 at 7:57 pm

         If anyone's reading this who has input into the review:

         1. Think post-ww2 Churchill. People were just tired from the war and voted for (any) change. Hence the old saw about jumping from the frying pan into the fire. Whichever party had to take NZ through the ramifications of Covid would likely have been out this election.
         2. The incumbent government is at a disadvantage when campaigning because of the potential for the "Why are you saying it's necessary when you've had 6 years to implement it…" challenge. This time, it is the left’s turn to have that advantage.
         3. "Leaders light fires inside people, not underneath them" – I'm not talking about Labour Party leadership, I'm talking about how Labour needs to motivate the general public. This term, there will be many opportunities to call out the government for having promised the earth and then not delivering, thereby presenting a lack of credibility. But, don't rely on people to jump to that conclusion without help. You don't need to appear grumpy. Hipkins was on target in the last Leaders' debate. Start from there and build on it.
         4. People are hungry for a government that will grow the size of the pizza, as opposed to bickering about who should get the biggest slice of the current pizza. Start with a single, overarching policy direction, then develop policies out of that, so people can share "The" vision. This should be a vision that relates to New Zealand's place in the global marketplace, not whether GST off fruit and vegetables are better than tax cuts.
         5. Don't create policy from Focus Groups – Find The Parade, then get in front of it.
         6. For Labour and the Greens, definitely, and possibly Te Pati Maori as well, have your unique selling points, of course, but make sure your core policies align and make sense. In my opinion, for example, the Green’s wealth tax, that seemed to me to be a bit draconian based as it was/is on taxing unearned income. It seemed to me an envy tax and far less logical than a Capital Gains Tax.
         • pat 1.2.1.2.1

           1 November 2023 at 8:05 pm

           You do realise that what you advocate is what every political organisation will be attempting?

           The question for Labour isnt why they lost the election (they were always likely to do so as the economy turned south) but rather why they lost so badly?

           Their base support appears around 25%, and possibly declining….with a changing demographic (self inflicted) as an increasing proportion of voters are born offshore Labour cannot rely on historical affiliation to maintain even that level of support into the future
         • Barfly 1.2.1.2.2

           2 November 2023 at 7:48 am

           "People are hungry for a government that will grow the size of the pizza, as opposed to bickering about who should get the biggest slice of the current pizza."

           Wealth in NZ

           The top 10% are eating half the f***ing pizza the bottom 50% get the crumbs only so NO
2. Anne 2

   1 November 2023 at 10:25 am

   You are far too kind mickysavage.

   They are a pair of journalistic fraudsters who are only in the commentary game for cash and fame. One talks bullshit and the other prints bullshit spread by others. Both are as shallow as they come and haven't had a single thought-provoking analysis of any merit between them.

   I look forward to the day when they are both exposed for what they are… charlatans.
3. Zero400 3

   1 November 2023 at 10:26 am

   I was raised in poverty. I obtained a degree and had a successful career due entirely to the welfare state subsequently destroyed by the 1984 Labour government and all following governments.

   But of course my generation is retiring from politics, not entering. Younger people with degrees either have private resources or substantial debt.
   • mickysavage 3.1

     1 November 2023 at 7:57 pm

     I have a similar background. Thanks to the trade union movement and summer work in a factory I managed to get through University with minimal debt that was paid off shortly afterwards.

     My kids each had reasonably significant debt getting through University but a free home and parental support. After they graduated my wife and I offered to effectively pay it off so they could buy houses.

     This was our personal trip through life.

     I am deeply conscious as a child of South Auckland that others have not had as much luck as me.

     The 1980s were a personal embarrassment and although I was fine others were not.

     We should never accept this from Labour politicians. They should stick to the basics, helping people including poor people have meaningful lives.
     • aj 3.1.1

       1 November 2023 at 8:32 pm

       …. significant debt getting through University but a free home and parental support

       As our two were in tertiary education in other cites, couldn't do the free home. As we were both working, we paid enough that they never had students loans. I never kept count, but the combined 6 years at uni would have cost us $200k in 1996 – 2002 dollars.

       Don't regret a penny of it.
     • theotherpat 3.1.2

       6 November 2023 at 11:24 am

       spot on
4. SPC 4

   1 November 2023 at 10:59 am

   And ultimately, even if Labour decided to put more working people into Parliament, there’s a big question about whether such people would be ready to embrace a party that long ago abandoned the working class.

   https://democracyproject.nz/2023/10/30/bryce-edwards-new-zealand-needs-a-more-working-class-parliament/

   He makes a claim for which there was no supporting evidence in the article. He's peddling a right wing narrative about the Labour Party (WFF tax credits, an ambition for the MW to be a LW and the Fair Pay Agreement Industry Awards, apprenticeships end of the 90 day trials).

   Presumably he sees the former unionist Little as a lawyer – as someone holding a degree and therefore not representative of the working class. The same would apply if an economist of the NZCTU was an MP. The President of the NZCTU speaks at the party's annual conference.

   Maybe he's confusing Labour's timidity on wealth and estate taxation and windfall profit's (and rent increase caps) with policy on workers rights and wages – now that's just inadequate.
5. Dennis Frank 5

   1 November 2023 at 11:13 am

   Not easy to see any relation between Labour nowadays & the working class, but I have a hunch that self-identifying as working class isn't something that happens much anymore.

   When was the last time social science academics researched the issue? Can't recall any in my lifetime. File it under mythology.

   You could go with patronage, however. Patrons doing trickle-down to help the poor buy stuff to keep themselves alive. Documentation could be provided by social scientists doing a survey asking the poor if Labour govts have helped them and was that patronising. I suspect there'd be a significant difference in measurement.
   • pat 5.1

     1 November 2023 at 7:57 pm

     "but I have a hunch that self-identifying as working class isn't something that happens much anymore."

     Really…what does someone who gets paid weekly/fortnightly on an hourly basis consider themselves?…an entrepreneur?

     If you work for someone else (company or individual) and they determine what you do and how much you are remunerated for that effort then you are working class.
   • Incognito 5.2

     1 November 2023 at 9:30 pm

     When was the last time social science academics researched the issue? Can't recall any in my lifetime. File it under mythology.

     You seem to know an awful lot about mythology and astrology but also seem unable, or unwilling, to research anything that you know little about. Learn to use Google before your nonsensical display of ignorance and bias.

     Here, for your edification, first hit from Google:

     Feeling working class: affective class identification and its implications for overcoming inequality

     https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14682761.2020.1807194

     According to a 2016 survey, sixty percent of the United Kingdom’s population identify as working-class (Evans and Mellon Citation2016). Given that just twenty-five percent of the population work in manual labouring occupations, and that forty-seven percent of those in professional and managerial jobs, which would usually be considered middle-class professions, describe themselves as working-class, it is apparent that there is a disjuncture between the measurements social scientists use to determine class position (commonly including those based on occupation, wealth, home postcode and education – see O’Brien Citation2018 for a discussion of measurement methods), and the ‘felt’ experiences of those ‘identifying’ as working-class.
6. Anker 6

   1 November 2023 at 11:16 am

   • Is the Laboir Partynot interested in what went wrong that lead to them losing almost have of the vote of their2020 result?

   you do acknowledge that Pagani and Edwards have a point about more working class people in parliament. Then commenters on this thread go on to discredit these two, rather than engage in some soul searching as to what the party would look like if it was dominated by true working class people

   As a former member of the Labour Party and left winger, I say Pagani and Edwards ideas about more working class in parliament and Labour is a good one.

   I also think Labour would do well to talk to the people for example who voted for NZ first. They are likely the people who didn’t want National and Acts policies for workers, but absolutely were never going to vote Labour this time round or perhaps ever.

   tbh, and I know I run the risk of sounding arrogant here, they would do well to talk to someone like me. Grew up in working class circumstances, mum left dad before there was the DPB. Mother and uncle life members of the party, I have always only ever voted two ticks labour. A party member who worked hard for them and donated.

   didn’t vote labour or the left this time. Probably never will again. Labour might have some interest in finding out why they lost me. Or not
   • gsays 6.1

     1 November 2023 at 12:26 pm

     Good comment Anker.

     There was a very interesting guest on RNZ yesty arvo, talking about cancel culture from both the left end right.

     There is strong evidence for what he asserts in the comments to this post. Attack the author so you don't have to consider their message.

     https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018913373

     I'm no fan of Pagani but her observation about Coal not Dole and Leave the coal in the ground resonates. A local example would be the opposition to the hydro dams built in Muldoon's time and the relatively progressive place, energy wise, they put Aotearoa in nowadays.

     If we were to have more working class in Parliament, we would need to have state funded election campaigns to lessen the need for the individual to fundraise themselves and to level the playing field.8
     • mickysavage 6.1.1

       1 November 2023 at 12:43 pm

       I agree Labour should do some soul searching. However Pagani's and Edwards' contributions feel like the use of right wing gocha arguments rather than a serious discussion about the issue.

       The problem with their message is that the small amount of analysis I did shows that their sweeping conclusions are wrong.
       • tc 6.1.1.1

         1 November 2023 at 1:12 pm

         'Sweeping conclusions' is incredibly generous mickey.

         BS and Spin from paid msm opinionators is what that is IMO.
         • Bearded Git 6.1.1.1.1

           1 November 2023 at 2:26 pm

           +100 tc.
         • Barfly 6.1.1.1.2

           2 November 2023 at 7:59 am

           
       • Anker 6.1.1.2

         1 November 2023 at 1:17 pm

         I didn't read what Pagani or Edwards wrote and therefore can't comment on whether they seem like right wing gotcha arguments. Both I think claim to be left wing….but correct me if I am wrong on this.

         "there sweeping conclusions are wrong" what that there should be more geniune working class people in parliament? I thought you agreed? No matter.

         I think it would be interesting though to consider what sort of party Labour would be in the true working class were Labour MPs……….what would be the pros and cons of this?
         • weka 6.1.1.2.1

           1 November 2023 at 2:38 pm

           Both I think claim to be left wing….but correct me if I am wrong on this.

           Don't think Edwards says his political allegiance, but I don't think he is left wing.

           Pagani says she's left wing but the reason she is persona non grata with left wing people is because she's been politically active in keeping the Overton Window in NZ based in neoliberal centrism. She should have set up a new party holding that position rather than trying to pull Labour further that way, she would have more respect then.

           Left wing has a specific meaning. It doesn't mean voting Labour (eg there are swing voters or apolitical people who vote Labour), nor having liberal values (in NZ liberal values are held across the political spectrum). Left wing is associated with socialism and collective good and has a long history of politics that informs what it is.

           I haven't read Edwards' or Pagani's pieces but based on what micky has said and what I know of the two of them, my guess is they are trying to advocate for working class voices by separating them from the labour movement and leftist politics. This is dangerous from a left pov imo because of the rise of populism, including centrist populism, and the connections between that and rising fascism internationally.

           The problem the left has is that we are so many decades into neoliberalism, and there are many people now who don't have any memory of the time before that. There are still left wing people complaining about Labour and the loss of a working class party, but those that end up dissing the left or voting on the right are not allies of the working class imo. I was raised middle class and have lived a partly underclass life, so maybe take my view with a grain of salt, but as a feminist, there are no good things to be had for women from the right or the continuation of neoliberalism.
           • Sanctuary 6.1.1.2.1.1

             2 November 2023 at 8:13 am

             "…She should have set up a new party holding that position…"

             Pagani might be centrist grifter, but she isn't stupid. You know what happens when liberal centrists set up their own party claiming the high ground of common sense anti-politics? This happens –

             "…The Independent Group for Change, also known as Change UK, was a British centrist, pro-European Union political party, founded in February 2019 and dissolved ten months later, after all its MPs lost their seats at the 2019 general election…"

             The likes of Pagani and Edwards basically desire a world where they get cushy jobs on government quangos policing the Overton window.
             • weka …

               2 November 2023 at 12:30 pm

               The likes of Pagani and Edwards basically desire a world where they get cushy jobs on government quangos policing the Overton window.

               🔥

               I'll be bringing 'policing the Overton window' into my lexicon.
       • mike 6.1.1.3

         1 November 2023 at 1:59 pm

         Quite right Micky and congratulations on your post.

         The Labour Party does nothing but soul searching. Remember 'Labour Listens'. We soul search because we are a progressive party that delivers evidence based legislation to solve problems people have. All people.

         Since Anker waved their personal qualifications to be a working class paragon I feel I can add mine.

         At 76 I am a product of a brilliant experiment in practical socialism. Franklin and Elenor Roosvelt's New Deal – delivered through our Labour Party lead by your namesake Micky Savage. I grew up, 5 kids in a sturdy state cottage, where Dad loved Mum and brought home only just enough for us to live on. Because of the covenant of the New Deal our parents believed in the promise of a fairer and brighter future and took advantage of the helping hand Labour gave us – wages for wives, state housing, free education into university or trades, and the myriad things progressive working class people like Peter Fraser, et al, delivered.

         We rose into a life of more choices than Mum and Dad had leaving school at 12. In fact we gained the resilience needed to take on anything and everything. As the five of us did in our individual ways. The New Deal gave working families like ours a chance to have a freer, more stimulating, and creative life – we could be whatever we wanted to be.

         Yet we none of us ever forgot the lessons our parents taught us to count our blessings and remain loyal to those who had provided the means to achieve them. The unique chances we were given have always been the basis of our staunch loyalty to the Labour Party. We want for our kids what we had. It worked. Our free lives have allowed us to no long need the helping hand governments can give – as well as to never forget those who need that hand now.

         There are those like John Key who took the chances of the New Deal gave and promptly pulled up the ladder behind them. But none of the thousands who forgot to count their blessings vote for Labour. They've taken the gift they've been given and voted for posher parties. Empty, greedy parties who want only more for themselves and to hell with the others they choose not to know. Sneering, angry, punishing people whose values are based in prejudice.

         The two people you discussed in your post are spouting their lines. They're fakes to say we need more working class in Parliament – they don't believe that at all – its just sloganeering to bolster their master's nastiness. And those like the commenters above who play the holier than thou game and slander their own party using the enemies lines are beneath contempt. Their threats to abandon us we gladly embrace. Beat it.

         Since Helen Clark and Michael Cullen's time. and I know into the future, the Labour Party have and will espouse the values I have – be compassionate to others who need a hand and be humble when you have drunk at the well of equality and freedom.

         I thank Andrew Little and Jacinda Ardern and Chris Hipkins and all the other clever working class MP's who have benefitted from progressive governments and not forgotten at whose hand they did. In these last six years we have seen an out-there Labour party driving the values of the New Deal in the most difficult of circumstances, with humour, gumption and intelligence. History will be much kinder to them than these snarky couch-based critics.

         Our Labour Party is full of working class people who know where they came from and who strive now to show the path of enlightenment and freedom to others who want to find it.
         • Anker 6.1.1.3.1

           1 November 2023 at 5:06 pm

           Not sure if you are taking a swipe at me Mike when you say

           "And those like the commenters above who play the holier than thou game and slander their own party using the enemies lines are beneath contempt. Their threats to abandon us we gladly embrace. Beat it."

           I don't think I am slandering Labour. I am merely saying they lost me as a loyal party member and voter. Do you really think people should stay loyal to a political party if they find themselves disagreeing with what the party has done and how it conducts itself? Its a democracy mate and I am entitled to vote for whoever I like.

           I am afraid if you were referring to me Mike "their threats to abandon us we gladly embrace" comes a little too late. I have already resigned from Labour about a year ago and I didn't vote for them.

           It seems some of the people on this post are not really interested in finding out things that contributed to Labour losing the election. Your call
           • Incognito 6.1.1.3.1.1

             1 November 2023 at 9:42 pm

             If the shoe fits …
         • Darien Fenton 6.1.1.3.2

           7 November 2023 at 8:07 am

           Thank you.
         • Louis 6.1.1.3.3

           7 November 2023 at 8:15 am

           Mike, well said, and thank you for sharing that.
       • gsays 6.1.1.4

         1 November 2023 at 6:46 pm

         "..their sweeping conclusions are wrong."

         From yr own interpretation of the numbers, 50% of Labour MPs have 'property interests' compared to the (undisputed claim) of 10% of the public.

         It matters not, the property interests of National nor Act, when it's Labour that needs to reconnect with it's constituency.

         As for the education issue, it sounds equally spurious to equate " tertiary certificate or diploma" with a degree.

         I get it, we aren't to approve of the mouthpieces, obvious by the 'guilt by association' (another habit of the left cancel culture) list you provide, unfortunately some of what comes from those orifices rings true-

         "This should involve questions about why the party exists, and who exactly it represents."

         "…parties of the left still promise a lot to the working class, but once in power “they reflect the priorities of the college-educated middle classes – who now run these parties. Ban plastic bags. Subsidies for EVs. Cycleways, ban hate speech”""

         "The original Labour Party was based in the trade union movement, but by the 1980s it was a middle-class party – which is why the Fourth Labour Government was so easily captured by the neoliberal economic reform programme."

         Edit; I say none of this to gloat, I get some are mourning the election loss, I suppose I mourned a few years back.
         I sincerely believe this country needs an old school workers party that can be inclusive, bring most with them. Basically what Labour used to be pre neo liberalism.
     • Anker 6.1.2

       1 November 2023 at 1:12 pm

       Thanks Gsays. And thanks verymuch for the link. Will listen.

       I am no fan of Pagani either or though she did a good job of moderating the FSU debate on Do some conversations only lead to harm. It was well worth watching.

       I don't have to be a fan of people to read them and consider their point of view.
7. Ghostwhowalks 7

   1 November 2023 at 12:26 pm

   National also is no longer just farmers, business owners and the haute bourgeoisie

   Luxon- BCom Corporate manager/salesman

   Willis- BA Dip Journ Party cadre ( never worked in journalism)

   Bishop LLB Party cadre ( never worked as a lawyer)

   Shane Reti MB ChB- medical doctor

   Paul Goldsmith MA author political advisor

   Louise Upston

   Erica Stanford BA ( politics) Journalist TV production-lobbyist

   Matt Doocey BSc Hons MSc MA Psychologist/health Management
   • Anker 7.1

     1 November 2023 at 1:19 pm

     Ghostwhowalks, with all due respect this was not about who National should have as MPs. It was about the suggestion by two supposedly left commentators that labour should have more true working class MPs.
     • Ghostwhowalks 7.1.1

       1 November 2023 at 3:47 pm

       Ever noticed why it never comes up how National has strayed from its roots, its only Labour who is concern trolled on this.

       But feel free to concern troll me instead
       • Anker 7.1.1.1

         1 November 2023 at 4:53 pm

         Well this post was about Labour. Of course you are perfectly entitled to bring up National. I was merely commenting on how it might be constructive to try and figure out what went wrong for Labour this time. That's what the post was about.

         Two commentators suggested that Labour needs to become more working class. Agree or disagree about that, argue your point. But what I experience here is people largely not reflecting on that. Instead they try to discredit Edwards and Pagani, or say words to the effect that "National does it too" i.e list the background of the National candidates and argue they strayed from their roots (that maybe the case but it ain't going to tell you much about where Labour went wrong).

         BTW calling me a concern troll is also part of avoiding what the issues are.

         I would suggest everyone listen to the link Gsays put up, an interview with someone who wrote a book about cancel culture and how both the left and the right avoid engaging in debate by using strategies that don't address the arguemnt. IMO this has become a prodominate feature on the left and is part of what drove me away from it. Its not an arguement calling someone a Terf for example, or smearing people as Nazis, when clearly they are not.
8. Powerman 8

   1 November 2023 at 12:30 pm

   Blessed be the meek for they will inherit the Earth, two flaws in that statement–the meek don't want to inherit the Earth and the powerful won't let them!
9. Corey 9

   1 November 2023 at 12:37 pm

   Pagani and Edward's figures are weird af about education but even on numbers you quoted, 40% of kiwis are not represented by parliament.

   Let's say 60% of kiwis have a tertiary degree, at least a third but likely more will have engineering, design, science and tech degrees. It'd be nice to have more experts on tech and building things in parliament.

   Most of parliament have law degrees the rest have economics or art degrees (pol Sci, coms, history), the amount of people with these degrees in parliament is truly unrepresentative.

   We need lawyers in parliament but they cannot create things, legal advice is plentiful in parliament, we need more people who know how to actually do things. Who know how long a project will take and realistically how much it will cost. Lawyers and economists know the price of everything but the value of nothing.

   If parliament needs lawyers than maybe we should have an upper house that amends laws and fill that with lawyers and the lower house with regular people.

   As for the Labour party and the working class, the Labour party does not understand the working class, it has barely any working class in its ranks inside or outside parliament .

   When called out for not representing the working class Labour party members say "what even is the working class in 2023" or "times have changed"

   It is ignorant to the needs of the working class and when presented with the needs it calls them "unrealistic"

   Outside of an election year it won't be caught dead in a working class pub or hang out and finds the idea of going to one quite disgusting.

   The Labour party doesn't speak like the working class and would have most working class people fired if it ever had a political conversation with working class people on a job site.

   Working class people are economically to the left of Labour but socially, talk a lot more like Winston Peters than Jacinda Ardern or Hipkins.

   The disconnect between Labour and the working class on housing, immigration, race, sexuality, gender, covid, health, education, infrastructure and taxation is so incredible vast now I'm not sure it's repairable.

   The working classes major concern is housing and thinks Labour dropped the ball, it wants low immigration, it's believes in universal programs not targeted bs, it's generally socially conservative, it wants things like capital gains taxes and wealth taxes and wants more money to front line health and education workers unlike Labour who were obsessed with internal bureaucratic restructurings.

   When Labour members speak to working class people and any of the above is mentioned Labour mps awkwardly laugh and shrug, you can't expect a party that doesn't represent any of the social beliefs of the working class and doesn't ever want to accomplish any of the economic or housing concerns or the working class to continue to receive support from the working class.

   If you don't represent a group, that group will go elsewhere, or just not engage at all.

   Without the working class there really is no Labour, or maybe there are enough people in nz with law and arts degrees in nz to get a majority in parliament. Lol

   When people move up in economic and social status they tend to forget, judge and look down on people in their old economic and social status and Labour has very much done this in eyes of working class voters.
   • SPC 9.1

     1 November 2023 at 1:21 pm

     What is NACT/NZF going to do about any of those "working class concerns" … I do know they plan to restrict increases to MW and end the FPA Industry Awards that was the only block on migrant worker levels crashing incomes and employment conditions.
   • Ghostwhowalks 9.2

     1 November 2023 at 3:51 pm

     Last Parliament was 21 lawyers far from most , it was 16%

     https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/428797/parliament-still-packed-with-lawyers-but-is-that-a-bad-thing
10. Mike the Lefty 10

    1 November 2023 at 12:46 pm

    What would Pagani and Edwards know about being "working class"?

    They are really just a couple of Blairites or National-lites.

    Why the media keep on accepting Pagani as a spokesperson for Labour I do not know.
    • Ghostwhowalks 10.1

      1 November 2023 at 3:59 pm

      Ms Pagani is the *left* version of Matthew Hooton, a spin doctor who is just promoting her PR consultants business

      "Born in New Zealand, she has lived in the US and France. She grew up in the United Kingdom and earned her degree at Warwick University. She has a Graduate Certificate in International Law from Victoria University of Wellington and has limited knowledge of German, French and Maori.

      Josie is the daughter of Emory University professor Fraser J Harbutt, and leading New Zealand writer Elspeth Sandys.
11. Anker 11

    1 November 2023 at 12:54 pm

    • “We need more people to actually know how to do things”. Corey @ 9.

    yet again Corey completely support what you are saying. This is even more relevant to our local council (Wellington). A 26 year old, now our local MP pushed through $,2600000 on a full cycle way proposal. I read this in the Spinoff where Ms Paul was being celebrated for this achievement. This will likely reduce emissions by how much?.. SFA if you will excuse my language. It is a joke around Wellington how few people use the cycle ways… it’s just not a suitable city for them (Chch yes). Wellington City Council have neglected good adaptation strategies such as fixing our pipes (this has been going on long before Ms Paul’s time (and btw I know she has a fancy degree, but this doesn’t give her wisdom. She is clearly ideologically driven). This lack of attention to pipes makes the effects of CC (probable drought this summer and floods other times) more problematic.

    We don’t need more lawyers in parliament (no objection to lawyers as such), we have Crown Law to advise and check legislation.
    • satty 11.1

      1 November 2023 at 4:30 pm

      The people who voted for Tamatha Paul re-elected her as councillor and now voted her for MP. So one can only assume she achieved the things she was voted into those positions for, like the cycle network. From what I've seen in my time here in Wellington, since Kerry Prendergast, who was responsible for removal of pedestrianised areas to create more on-street carparks in the city, no mayoral candidate with anti-cycling / anti-public transport plans (or even opinion, like Paul Eagle) was successful.

      I'm still waiting for the car-free CBD plans from the WCC, by the way:

      Stuff – Wellington City Council to explore plan for car-free CBD by 2025

      I am actually surprised how many people cycle in this city, taking into account it's completely unsafe to cycle (or try to cross the street as a pedestrian) with all the car driving idiots in this country. I would not call Wellington unsuitable for cycling since there are e-bikes.

      Especially, since COVID on my street the increase of cyclists is at least 10 fold (starting from a small base though). I would like to see much harsher fines for car drivers for speeding, not giving way etc. incl. long suspensions of their licenses, to make the streets safer. Unfortunately, this is not going to happen any time soon.

      The water pipes in this city are an issue, no doubt. However, they are only one of the issues around water in this city. Another is a huge waste by consumers (the average consumption is higher than Auckland / Christchurch). Both issues could improved with the use of water meters. However, there's a strong opposition, so we wait and wait and wait…

      Back on topic:

      How many people do actually know "how to do things"? I'm not even talking about "running a country".

      Isn't it a world of "outsourcing" where nearly everyone – not just companies – who can afford it, doesn't cook, doesn't grow food, don't clean their place, don't mow their lawn, don't look after their children / pets themselves. For everything in our lives there's an "outsourcing service" nowadays.

      The people actually doing those things hardly have a chance to make a political career, because they're trying to survive on minimum / liveable wage. Labour candidate Ibrahim Omer might be an exception.
      • Anker 11.1.1

        1 November 2023 at 4:41 pm

        How much lowering of emissions do you think the cycleway will lead to Satty?

        I seriously hope the WCC cancel the car free city centre/Lambton Golden mile re-development. A lot of money I imagine for what? I have two relatives who are elderly/disabled. How do you think a car free centre will work for them? I can tell you it will really effect their ability to experience the inner city. They are not close to a bus or train route.

        I don't have a problem with water meters, but that won't fix the broken pipes.
        • satty 11.1.1.1

          1 November 2023 at 5:34 pm

          How much time is left to reduce our pollution / emissions to zero?

          Looking into this article
          Guardian – Climate crisis: carbon emissions budget is now tiny
          the answer is not much more than a decade. Obviously dependent how much risk / destruction mankind is willing to accept.

          I do not think many New Zealanders are interested to lower their emissions (until it's too late) as they are fully addicted to cheap fossil fuel and related pollution. One of the reasons the National (Polluter) Party probably won this election… "the last stand of the polluters".

          However, I do believe we have to offer the best possible way(s) for people to reduce their emissions… you simply have to start somewhere. And as I pointed out people are elected into the council, at least here in Wellington, to do exactly that.

          Coming back to the car-free CBD. The best shops (measured by highest foot-traffic) in Wellington are in an area where there is no on-street parking in front of the shops and all car traffic is through-traffic. I can't think of many shops / businesses where you can enter in any other way than by foot.

          I even argue, that the other side of the road above the shops are significantly less successful, because people simply don't want to cross the road / car-traffic (there are officially 5 parking spots on that side by the way).

          How do your relatives get from their car to the shop?
          Even in shopping malls you're not next to the shop either.

          I lived (and shopped) enough in Europe and non-European countries before coming to NZ to know that pedestrianised areas can and do thrive. Actually, there are so many cities, so many examples, where residents wonder why it took so long.

          The biggest car-related problem for the Wellington CBD is not the workers / shoppers parking to do business in the CBD, but the through-traffic (I always consider it a 16 lane motorway with some high-rise buildings in between). So one reason I am awaiting the car-free CBD plan is to see how this is addressed.
          • Anker 11.1.1.1.1

            2 November 2023 at 1:42 pm

            Replying to how my relatives get on from their car to the shop. The one with the disabled car park sticker will park in disabled parks. But if he wants to shop on the Golden Mile, I pick him up and drop him off as near as I can to the shop.

            The other is o.k. for now but as fewer cars and fewer parks come to the city, they will have problems.

            One of the things that is overlooked is that many Wellingtonians are forgoing town and driving their cars to the Hutt (Queensgate) or the Porirua Mall. Or Kilbirnie. I mean can you really imagine a family with little kids jumping on a train, then a bus to get into town? Or cycling? Come on. The cycleways will be nice for a very small number of people who cycle and the rest will drive their cars elsewhere. The lack of parking in town often sends us to the Eastern Suburbs for meals out, because they have great restaurants there and we are a bit too elderly to cycle after a few wines (lol)

            However out of fairness to myself, I do walk and travel by public transport when I can and I have always done so.
      • Anker 11.1.2

        2 November 2023 at 1:25 pm

        https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/27-09-2023/the-hottest-seat-in-the-country-why-wellington-central-is-a-race-unlike-any-other

        This is a bio on the three candidates standing.
        • Anker 11.1.2.1

          2 November 2023 at 1:34 pm

          Somehow I couldn't add the quote from the link above (the Spinoffs article about the three Wellington Central candidates. It didn't allow me to edit and I have no idea why. This is the quote on Tametha Paul and the cycleway

          If there’s one story that sums up Tamatha Paul’s political style, it’s the cycleway vote. It was an incredible piece of gamesmanship that only a handful of local government nerds really appreciated. But its impact will shape the city for years to come.

          "It all happened in the middle of a chaotic, seven-hour meeting where the council set its 10-year budget. Mayor Andy Foster was frantically trying to cut spending, and councillors were arguing and snapping over every little thing.

          The budget would have spent $61 million on cycling. Councillors negotiated to double the budget to $120m, but Paul pushed for more: she demanded a vote on a full city-wide cycling network, at an estimated cost of over $226m."

          My point here is Wellington city council is in serious financial difficulties. Projects to restrenthen public buildings is chewing through the council budget. Doing so will likely save many many lives in Wellington when the big shake comes.

          The $226,000 cycleway pushed through by Tametha……again I ask what impact will that make on CO2 emissions? Has anyone tried to estimate this?? I would say it will achive nothing. Very very few Wellingtonians cycle, even if rates are increasing. Even with electric bikes the city does not particularly suit cycling. Its hilly and has very narrow streets (mostly) which twist and turn). On wet windy days numbers cycling drop dramatically (o.k. that is just my observation, but it makes intuitive sense). Oh and a friend was knocked off her bike on a cycleway because cars pulling out of parking places have to negotiate both the cycleway and the roads. Its tricky
12. Thinker 12

    1 November 2023 at 2:02 pm

    I disagree with this post as it stands, but I do agree with what I think it is supposed to mean.

    One of the biggest negative changes in recent politics has been the shift to celebrity politicians and we could perhaps see a bunch of "working class" politicians in that they visibly represent but may or may not actually do so, in principle.

    Politics is about representation. It shouldn't matter about the nature of a person but rather the extent to which they represent me.

    For example, there are a number of gay politicians. I am not gay. However, I would vote for a gay politician who stood to represent the needs of people like me (say, of the left) but not vote for a gay politician who doesn't (say, a gay politician who stands for such things as zero-hour contracts, a low-wage economy, for example).

    Charles Dickens wasn't poor but it is hard to think of a person who championed working class rights.

    The Lever Brothers, of Sunlight Soap, we're very wealthy and not of working class, but their model village of Port Sunlight was developed as an example of how low-wage housing provided by employers could enhance the lives of factory workers and is now a world heritage site.

    Conversely, there are what are called "Chardonnay-sippling Socialists", a term to describe (among others) the kind of trade unionist who purports to represent workers but instead devote their time to meeting with the upper glasses and passing on the desires of the wealthy, wrapped up in terms designed to mislead workers into thinking their needs are well-protected. Those who remember NZ in the decade or so after 1984 will recall a time when such people abounded.
13. Tiger Mountain 13

    1 November 2023 at 2:03 pm

    I have scanned Bryces work for years and he is basically a “recycler” or aggregator of others written and graphic work. He has long had it in for NZ Labour above all else, and represents thwarted academia.

    Josie represents the middle class admin and managerial sector and also seems to have scores to settle with Labour anytime she opens her mouth. They are both paid to advance the right wing agenda, but do it in a not so obvious way as open righties like Hosking and Hooton.

    There will be more working class people in Parliament (already are some in Greens and TPM) when NZ Labour gives the party back to ordinary members rather than maintaining an effective Caucus veto, and Leader’s “Captain’s Call” veto power. Mr Edwards sentiments are a false flag.
14. adam 14

    1 November 2023 at 3:39 pm

    Problem even here is that working class voices don't raise up.

    As we are crude, angry and piss of moderators. Hell most of us are struggling just to get through the day worrying about the medical bills, the rent, food, and all the other bills.

    Working class folks just can't be fucked because it's all liberal shitfuckery at the end of the day. Liberalism has turned working class people into something worse than serfs.

    This shit is fast turning into something worse than feudalism.
    • mike 14.1

      1 November 2023 at 4:18 pm

      Not liberalism Adam – Neo-liberalism.

      Quite the opposite.
      • adam 14.1.1

        1 November 2023 at 5:54 pm

        Bollocks
        • SPC 14.1.1.1

          1 November 2023 at 6:03 pm

          In the beginning there was the enlightenment and thus the dawn of liberalism, then it branched into neo-liberalism (man shall serve the economic power of those with capital) and modern liberalism (and man shall be, well good until he is told that is not good enough by woman).

          https://www.britannica.com/money/topic/neoliberalism
          • adam 14.1.1.1.1

            1 November 2023 at 6:17 pm

            Dancing on the head of a pin.

            Liberalism is the ideology of the west, it has many guises from Marxism to Fascism. If classical, neo, modern, or what ever – it's still horse shit to the interests, needs and desires of working people.

            In it's current guise, it is worse than feudalism. In this current form of liberalism we are not even wage slaves. We are little more than peons for the new lords and masters. A class of people to bully, lie too, and eventually consume.
            • pat 14.1.1.1.1.1

              1 November 2023 at 7:04 pm

              When you are comfortable within the system you have the luxury of semantics….therein lies the problem.

              Until you are no longer
              • adam …

                1 November 2023 at 8:42 pm

                Far from comfortable mate. Hard watching kids kill themselves in droves. Families fall apart. And the constant suffering of the poor and those falling off the cliff.

                Semantics are the games of philosophers without a foot in the real world, ah pat.
                • pat …

                  1 November 2023 at 8:56 pm

                  Semantics is the game of politicians and lawyers.
                  • adam …

                    1 November 2023 at 8:59 pm

                    More people without a foot in the real world.
            • SPC 14.1.1.1.1.2

              1 November 2023 at 7:11 pm

              No modern liberalism is very much part of social democratic thought, with an aspect of political or constitutional liberalism – thus does not drift towards either Marxism or fascism.

              You are misusing the word liberalism merely to vent at those not of the working class.

              Sure the “liberal” middle class can vote for the upper half – Randolph Churchill made the observation in the 19th C that giving the working class the vote would create a new party and the Liberals/Whigs then become Tories.

              Then again those social democratic liberal middle class who say no to the right, then get dismissed as the managerial class of the status quo (and either accused of enabling right wing drift or blocking the move to a more egalitarian society).
              • adam …

                1 November 2023 at 8:35 pm

                Whose misusing a word, not me. I'm not having a go at anything but the dominate ideology of the west. One which is not working for working people.

                Your devotion to liberalism is not my problem. Nor is the delusion that social democracy is still a possibility within how our economy is now structured.

                Slavery beyond wage slavery is the new normal. Peons all, even the so called middle class.
    • Incognito 14.2

      1 November 2023 at 9:13 pm

      As we are crude, angry and piss of moderators. [sic]

      You’ve got the wrong end of the stick.
      • roblogic 14.2.1

        1 November 2023 at 9:35 pm

        "moderates" perhaps, i.e the prof managerial class, find the crude protests of the working class icky
        • Incognito 14.2.1.1

          1 November 2023 at 9:51 pm

          Those kinds of generalisations and stereotypes won’t help us and only serve to reinforce bias and division. This is the opposite of what we need and what some here try to achieve, the Author of the OP included, if I may be so bold.
          • roblogic 14.2.1.1.1

            1 November 2023 at 10:21 pm

            Nah it's fair to point out that class war exists, even if the MSM prefers to wallpaper over the vast injustices of our society
            • Incognito 14.2.1.1.1.1

              2 November 2023 at 8:01 am

              Sure, class struggle and class war have not ceased to exist although the details have changed – the operative word is inequity, socio-economically & politically that is socialised, institutionalised, and baked into our systems, IMHO. I wasn’t referring to MSM and perhaps both Adam and you are deflecting & diverting without even realising.
          • adam 14.2.1.1.2

            2 November 2023 at 2:37 am

            Unity under liberalism is the problem, and I'm not seeing anyone here now, offering anything different. One did, and he left to walk away from everything. Because unity with people who want unity strictly on their terms (liberalism), is not unity at all. It's just another form of brutality and control. Which working people are just so fucking use too.
    • Anker 14.3

      2 November 2023 at 1:43 pm

      I hear you Adam
15. pat 15

    1 November 2023 at 5:40 pm

    "In 2021 over 60% of kiwis aged between 25 and 64 had a tertiary certificate or diploma or bachelor’s degree or higher."

    "More New Zealanders have also gained tertiary education qualifications. The proportion of 25 to 64-year-olds with a tertiary education qualification has increased from 54 percent in 2001 to 65 percent in 2021. All of this growth has been at bachelors degree level or higher, which has more than doubled from 13 percent in 2001 to 36 percent in 2021."

    Your link

    Lawyers huh…gotta love em.

    Labour would be better served by more working class and fewer lawyers.
16. pat 16

    1 November 2023 at 7:44 pm

    It may be worth considering the following…

    There are around 17,000 lawyers with practicing certificates in NZ…or 0.003% of the population.

    There are usually 120 MPs in Parliament.

    If Parliament were truly representative there would be 1/3 of an MP from the legal profession in any given Parliament.
    • alwyn 16.1

      1 November 2023 at 8:39 pm

      "1/3 of an MP from the legal profession".

      That sounds about right. Instead we have what Tom Paxton sang about in the mid 1980's. One Million Lawyers and Other Disasters.
17. Incognito 17

    2 November 2023 at 8:10 am

    @ Micky, thanks for the Post. It’s probably no coincidence that I’d started researching the representation of the working class in Parliament before your Post appeared. I might park the idea of writing one of my own for now but it is a good and important topic for broad & deep discussion.
    • mickysavage 17.1

      2 November 2023 at 8:17 am

      You should put it up. Labour is having a deep discussion right now about what happened in the election and this issue is one of the important issues for us to understand.
      • Incognito 17.1.1

        2 November 2023 at 8:29 am

        Agreed! I should, which means I must get my A into G except that I’m bogged down with work (which is a poor excuse). I promise you that I’ll make an effort this weekend.
      • weka 17.1.2

        2 November 2023 at 12:29 pm

        I'd love to see some ongoing discussion on TS about the political issues for working class people.
    • Dennis Frank 17.2

      2 November 2023 at 8:28 am

      Yeah go for it. Regardless that class consciousness seems to be playing a tacit role in Aotearoa, we do have a global common-interest basis for reformulation of the 19th century framing we inherited.

      Inasmuch as govts tack towards the middle, a contemporary framing of how the middle gets differentiated from above & below would be useful and globally relevant.
18. Anker 18

    2 November 2023 at 1:45 pm

    If Labour had working class people predominating in the party and as their MPs I don't think the party would resemble anything like it does now. Just my opinion
    • weka 18.1

      2 November 2023 at 3:28 pm

      it wouldn't look the same, true. But the thing is, working class people vote. And along with people of other classes, they've consistently voted for neoliberalism for 40 years. Often right wing governments too. That's why Labour are the way they are. The idea that working class people would be more progressive than other classes doesn't bear examination. Which is what adam is talking about imo.

      There are people who believe that somehow a working class party would save the day. I don't believe this, although I do think working class people would do better under neoliberalism if Labour had more working class people in its ranks, or if there were a political party based around contemporary working class issues, and I do think we would have more chance of ending neoliberalism.

      But I suspect that most want something closer to the status quo, as does Edwards and Pagani. Which means many people being kept in poverty and everyone else turning a blind eye.
      • SPC 18.1.1

        2 November 2023 at 4:38 pm

        Murray Horn ex Treasury wrote back in 1998 that the neo-liberal reforms would last a generation – could or would not be undone by an elected government.

        The time may refer to the passing of the baby boomers – who would largely be a property owning generation.

        With a low top rate of tax and no tax on CG or the estate, there would emerge a class divide – inequality – that the future generations would wonder at.

        What sort of New Zealand we want to be in 2040 is more than a Tiriti issue.
        • weka 18.1.1.1

          2 November 2023 at 9:02 pm

          what was his rationale for his believe that neoliberalism couldn't/wouldn't be undone by an elected government?

          Agree about futurecasting NZ in 2040. Climate change is the thing most likely to unravel neoliberalism. We still have some choices about what comes after that, but they won't last forever.
          • SPC 18.1.1.1.1

            3 November 2023 at 8:58 am

            He was at Treasury during the labour and welfare reforms of the 1990's (and while Brash was at the RB). There was the "certainty" of those of an ideological conformity and also confidence that government had gone through a generational change (academia was already training people for this new order, without much critical challenge).

            He saw that as generational change and not something that could be undone very quickly, even if that was the political will of an elected government (he was right in a way, Labour's tenuous ECA reforms of 1999 was met with the winter of discontent even though it was in the manifesto).

            However it is not as if the neo-liberal case was without critique.

            A critical examination of the triumph of neo-liberalism by 2000. It might be seen as too narrow a focus to be allowed to dominate the political landscape aka government.

            Political Deficits:
            The Dawn of Neoliberal Rationality and the Eclipse of Critical Theory
            By William Andrew Callison (A dissertation submitted in partial satisfaction of the requirements for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy)

            His conclusion

            Accounting for our political deficits requires historical examination, careful conceptualization, and democratic contestation of neoliberalism’s far-right mutations, which are now targeting all but the narrowest forms of commonality, democracy, and solidarity. Instead of harnessing critique to the subsumption or rationalization of politics, a critical theory responsive tothis predicament would do well to pursue more expansive visions of the political than those inherited by the twenty-first century.

            https://escholarship.org/content/qt9p0574bc/qt9p0574bc_noSplash_811d952bab76c103c18fb2ecb73e25b7.pdf
19. Darien Fenton 19

    7 November 2023 at 8:48 am

    Who was it who said "they walked to the polls to vote us in and drove to the polls to vote us out?"
    • mickysavage 19.1

      7 November 2023 at 9:07 am

      My father among others.

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