Sepuloni on why voting matters

33 comments on “Sepuloni on why voting matters ”

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1. AAMC 1

   23 August 2011 at 1:49 pm

   It is good, but most believers in the American / New Zealand dream, will be thinking, I wanna be one of those rich guys one day, why do they keep dissing them?!
2. Rijab 2

   23 August 2011 at 2:03 pm

   Another great video from the Labour Party! The question is how to give it enough exposure so that ‘enrolled non-vote’ will find and watch it …
3. just saying 3

   23 August 2011 at 2:14 pm

   Where is the evidence that large numbers of the poor are more interested in looking after the rich (because apparently they aspire to be rich themsleves), than making ends meet, so they and their whanau are able to live wtih dignity. Could this be a neoliberal myth based on the fact that the chattering upper-middle class (who make a disproportionate amount of noise in the media including the blogosphere) feel this way, and in lieu of actually hearing what the poor think, project this mindset onto them (what else is there to aspire to other than great material wealth?).
   Astroturfers push this line pretty hard too IMO.

   This gets repeated over an over and has a big impact on the public discourse. It makes Labour afraid to challenge it, lest they upset the “many” on the bones of their arses, who are allegedly fawning over their “betters” anxious that they are never offended.

   The fact is most New Zealanders are not permanently obsessed with procuring the next luxury consumer item or holiday. We aren’t that shallow, and I’m sick to death of hearing the well-to-do speaking on behalf of everybody else.

   edit: This is a reply to comment 1. I should have pushed reply.
   • Rijab 3.1

     23 August 2011 at 2:24 pm

     Where is the upvote button on TheStandard? This is an instance in which one is thoroughly deserved!

     [lprent: It has been on the site a couple of times. Commentators here don’t like it and I’m not sure that I do either. In fact I wrote a post about why they are often a bad idea if they have the down vote as well. Not to mention the extra storage and display processing required when we have 300k comments. ]
     • Lanthanide 3.1.1

       23 August 2011 at 3:31 pm

       Actually I saw a pretty interesting comment ‘vote’ system when I was googling around for news on Sarah Palin.

       One site let you vote different tags for each comment, and the top 3 scorers would be shown with little icons. Tags included interesting (gold star), insightful (light bulb), funny (fake nose + glasses), nuts (peanut) and clueless (dead light bulb).
       • Rijab 3.1.1.1

         23 August 2011 at 8:10 pm

         Yeah fair call, blogs probably aren’t ideal for comment ranking systems haha… But it was a good way of emphasising my appreciation for JS’s comment!
   • AAMC 3.2

     23 August 2011 at 2:38 pm

     Fair call and I hope you’re right. But you’re competing with an enormous amount of advertising that infects the minds of all strata of society which programs desire which requires wealth.

     I’m skeptical to believe that all but a small minority are resistant to this aspiration, I have no evidence with which to prove it, but the behavior/targets of the “looters” in London recently gave us a fair idea that in fact those who are disadvantaged by society quite like the idea of a new telly and a flash pair of shoes. Maybe it is a neo-liberal myth, but it seems there are a few very pervasive neo-liberal myths that are held with great faith by many who are downtrodden by neo-liberalism. That’s it’s frightening genius!

     I agree, I don’t believe the poor have any interest in looking after the rich and neither should they, but I do believe they have been programmed to want to be rich.

     It would be nice to see a video in which there was a much more positive message ( of coarse that may be yet to come ) about creating opportunity and increased wealth for the poor, rather than, look how much they’ve got, lets take some of it of them and give it to you. Because as much as that may resonate with those at the very bottom, it will turn as many away and allow them to roll out the tired old socialist cliches we saw Boag extolling on Q&A the other morning.
     • just saying 3.2.1

       23 August 2011 at 2:54 pm

       I have no evidence with which to prove it, but the behavior/targets of the “looters” in London recently gave us a fair idea that in fact those who are disadvantaged by society quite like the idea of a new telly and a flash pair of shoes.

       I didn’t say the poor have no interest in luxury items I said:
       Where is the evidence that large numbers of the poor are more interested in looking after the rich (because apparently they aspire to be rich themsleves), than making ends meet, so they and their whanau are able to live wtih dignity.

       I hear this kind of thing over and over in the ‘sphere, but it’s not what I’m hearing all over the place from those who are struggling. I’m wondering if it is a manufactured myth that wants challenged once and for all. Unless anyone has any actual evidence to back it up…
       • AAMC 3.2.1.1

         23 August 2011 at 3:17 pm

         And I didn’t say the poor want to look after the rich I said the vast majority of society (other than those who are clever enough to see through the whole continuous growth mass consumption myth) aspire to being rich. What do those luxury items represent?

         I certainly hope the main aspiration is to live with dignity and as a society we should endeavor to orchestrate that. And we should endorse the right to have rights, community, family, the environment. Which is why you and I spend so much time reading and participating in debates on forums like this.

         But evidence of peoples desire to be rich or to appear to be rich and their desire for endless consumption is everywhere around you, not just something which is extolled on blogs. It is perpetuated by relentless advertising and I don’t think this social engineering or it’s effects can be written off as a myth, although I do believe the desire is totally manufactured. You are very likely right that those who struggle the most are more in touch with the things that really matter, their whanau, their community. But they are not immune.

         My real point in relation to what is essentially a very nice video with a nice message; the criticism often leveled at Labour and the Left more generally is that it is a negative politics, it is about “envy”, about taking from those who get off their arse, and all that crap which you and I equally disagree with.

         But along with those who often don’t vote, the Left really need to grab hold of the undecided swing vote, who do aspire to earning 150k (even if they never will) and who want to be given positive examples of how society can be lifted up. And who, because of the way this language has been framed in the media and manufactured into “reds under the beds” paranoia, will likely react to the way this is framed as vote buying.
   • aerobubble 3.3

     23 August 2011 at 3:46 pm

     People generally align themselves with a set of values that they think will increase
     their prestiage, power and wealth. i.e. the choice between a lower paying more
     rewarding job and a higher paying position that isn’t that interesting to them.
     Everyone is told by the MSM that the free market has to be defended, otherwise
     they look stupid, lose what little influence they have to be knowledgeable and
     will lose out in the pocket,
     Unfortuately everyone was right, the growth from ever cheap high density fuel
     drove the free market without any real help from the right wing talkfest who
     like the rightwing got out in front to say they were neo-liberals too.
     Now the question is now that people are hurting in the pocket, people
     know the economy is rotten if it relies on cheaper energy returning, and
     that sitting their heads up to kick the little guy a bit harder doesn’t look
     all that gracious to the weak lazy unemployed anymore.
     So it all depends on the inertia of the electorate to wake up to itself,
     and Labour, Greens need to start showing how the old ways don’t
     make sense now, that people look stupid defending massive bonuses for
     their bosses while they can’t afford milk. etc.
     • AAMC 3.3.1

       23 August 2011 at 3:56 pm

       Exactly, and ‘just saying’ is exactly right, manufactured myths need to be challenged, openly, with strong leadership and no fear of the focus group. This surely is the moment, markets tumbling, riots, revolutions and a bunch of the worlds top thinkers, economists and hedge fund managers proclaiming Capitalism is broken. If the left don’t have the courage to take this moment as an opportunity, then they deserve to loose the debate….and we’re f$@ked!

       Which brings us to George Monbiot writing today about prosperity without growth.

       “To sustain the illusion, we have inflicted more damage since 1950 to the planet’s living systems than we achieved in the preceding 100,000 years. The damage will last for centuries; the benefits might not see out the year. I”
       http://www.monbiot.com/2011/08/22/out-of-the-ashes/

       And the book (as a pdf ) he references which lays out a plan, that I haven’t had a chance to read yet.

       http://www.sd-commission.org.uk/data/files/publications/prosperity_without_growth_report.pdf
     • Campbell Larsen 3.3.2

       23 August 2011 at 8:32 pm

       Bubble, a request. Can you please make an attempt to construct actual sentences that are more than just groupings of cliches. It hurts my eyes reading your comments, and at the moment I’m not sure if you are even human.
       
       [lprent: Looks human to me. And I have had a lot of experience writing and killing robots, AI’s, expert systems, bloody waldos, bots, and trolls. Just looks eccentric and probably a bit of a newbie. I hadn’t noticed its comments to date. ]
4. randal 4

   23 August 2011 at 2:32 pm

   rijab the only button that counts is the one on the day and that one will be the one that elects Labour to the treasury benches.
5. Ianupnorth 5

   23 August 2011 at 5:31 pm

   Going out via my facebook account tonight!
6. expat 6

   23 August 2011 at 5:51 pm

   OMG, some lippy obese person preaching on YouTube will save Labour? No.
   • bbfloyd 6.1

     23 August 2011 at 7:51 pm

     not been trolling very long then expat? you really aren’t very good at it….. here’s a tip…. try to have a point, or at least attempt to sound like you do…. but thanks for giving me an easy target.. after dealing with morons in suits all day i needed a bit of light relief…

     [lprent: He has been around for a while and has been regularly banned for stupid trolling. Problem is that he has never succeeded in learning – so his comments are still those of a poorly functioning juvenile and usually have no coherent points apart from the graffitti. ]
7. expat 7

   23 August 2011 at 8:03 pm

   you fat and stupid too?
   • Rijab 7.1

     23 August 2011 at 8:06 pm

     Why would you even consider typing that terribly constructed sentence?
     • Colonial Viper 7.1.1

       23 August 2011 at 9:07 pm

       lolololololololol

       whoops thats not really a sentence is it
       • Ianupnorth 7.1.1.1

         23 August 2011 at 10:35 pm

         They can’t even do a reply – fail, of epic proportions – failed troll, failed post!
   • AAMC 7.2

     23 August 2011 at 9:34 pm

     You must cut a fine figure expat, cause you’re clearly more stupid than those your pointing your finger at.

     Don’t throw stones in a glass house would be my advice.
   • Drakula 7.3

     23 August 2011 at 11:20 pm

     Hey expat personal insults is not very good online etiquette please direct your comments to the issue not the person.
8. Afewknowthetruth 8

   23 August 2011 at 10:20 pm

   I used to think that voting mattered. But after four decades of enduring governments that served the interests of the ruling elites, the money-lenders and the corporations I woke up.

   Off the cliff at 100kph under National.

   Off the cliff at 90 kph under Labour.

   Off the cliff at 80 kph under the Greens.

   For decades none of them was the least bit interested in driving away from the cliff.

   It is now very obvious to anyone who is even slightly awake that we will ‘crash and burn’ whoever forms the next government.

   Luckily for the major parties most people are still asleep.
   • Lanthanide 8.1

     23 August 2011 at 10:44 pm

     “For decades none of them was the least bit interested in driving away from the cliff.”

     Anyone who proposed driving away from the cliff would not be elected and therefore their effort would be in vain.

     You keep blaming the politicians. You should be blaming the lazy, ignorant and entitled public who don’t want to face up to bad news until it’s hitting them over the head.
     • Colonial Viper 8.1.1

       23 August 2011 at 11:27 pm

       You keep blaming the politicians. You should be blaming the lazy, ignorant and entitled public who don’t want to face up to bad news until it’s hitting them over the head.

       Well what happened to our stellar public education and public broadcasting system is what I want to know.

       I was exposed to both (as I am sure you were) and we both figured it out. AFKTT a bit of us too it seems.

       The apathetic, uncurious, superficially distracted modern persona reminds me of the frog in the pot.
   • weka 8.2

     24 August 2011 at 2:38 pm

     Doesn’t driving off the cliff at 80km/hr give us more time to prepare? Seems as good as reason as any to vote.
     • Reality Bytes 8.2.1

       25 August 2011 at 12:35 am

       greens ftw
9. jbc 9

   23 August 2011 at 10:54 pm

   Sepuloni has a feel-good argument that sounds good superficially.

   It raises questions though for anyone who tends to think a little deeper though.

   Minimum wage and inflation. Solution: raise minimum wage. That does not seem like a solid solution to me. Unless minimum wage jobs were typically in industries with big monopoly margins (where the cost increase can be easily absorbed), then something else has to give. My guess would be unemployment or inflation. In other words something will cost more if the wage goes up, or less people will be employed at the minimum wage.

   What we really need to do is change what we are producing. Move jobs into areas that are worth more. That probably needs marginally smarter people. 

   If I am making sausages, and my employer is compelled to pay me 15% more, then are those sausages worth 15% more? If not, then something else must give.  Carmel is assuming that is going to be the butcher that employs me.

   I don’t think Carmel is thinking of the wider economic issues. She assumes NZ can fly by bending over and pulling upwards on it’s bootstraps. My take is that fundamentals about how the country earns money overall is much more important. 
   • Colonial Viper 9.1

     23 August 2011 at 11:31 pm

     If I am making sausages, and my employer is compelled to pay me 15% more, then are those sausages worth 15% more? If not, then something else must give.

     Not nitpicking, but the total labour content of the price of a sausage is not going to exceed 25% in the worst case scenario.

     So a $1.00 sausage might go to $1.04. Not a big deal.

     Peoples’ wages go up by 15% but the price of a sausage goes up by only 4%. Sounds fine to me.

     I don’t think Carmel is thinking of the wider economic issues.

     I said to a Labour MP not long ago…”Great tax policy…but a tax policy is not the same thing as an economic policy. So where is it?”

     I’m still waiting and now it’s fucking me off. How many RWC free days to elections????
     • jbc 9.1.1

       24 August 2011 at 1:26 am

       Not nitpicking, but the total labour content of the price of a sausage is not going to exceed 25% in the worst case scenario. 

       Absolutely correct. I blew that one.

       Perhaps in the low-skill services industry a better example exists, but yeah: it will never be 1:1 as I suggested.

       ”Great tax policy…but a tax policy is not the same thing as aneconomic policy. So where is it?”

       Both parties have made that mistake. Tax could be a part of the solution if it tilted the economy towards more productive and/or beneficial activities.  Redistribution might do that if the source and target were carefully targeted.
   • mik e 9.2

     24 August 2011 at 4:55 pm

     Jbc in the past when we have increased the minimum wage the right has complained the sky will fall in the reverse has happened, Studying research going back to early Egyptian times.
10. Afewknowthetruth 10

    24 August 2011 at 9:21 am

    Yes, Lanthanide, I do keep blaming the politicians and will keep blaiming the politicians for the awful mess we are in becasue they are the ones who ensured that education was underfunded, that class sizes were too big and ensured that the curriculum was ‘dumbed-down’. (As a science teacher, one year I had 35 students allocated to a room suitable for 28; the only solution was to divide the class in half and send half the students to another room for half the lessons. There was always a shortage of up to date books and always a shortage of equipment. I quit teaching.)

    Politicians are the ones who ensured that public broadcasting was ‘trashed’ and reduced to the level of the lowest common denominator of trite consumerism.

    Politicians are the ones who consistently ignored all the evidence for energy depletion and environmental degradation when there was an opportunity to put in place mitigation. (And they are still ignoring those issues).

    And politicians were the ones who promoted (forced down the electorate’s throat) globalisation, free-trade, and the nearly complete take-over of society by corporations.

    To be honest I have nothing but contempt for the majority of politicians. When I think of the word politician the first word association that comes into my mind is the word saboteur. That applies especially for the next generation, who are going to have to try to negotiate a perilous path through the horrendous mess created by politicians [and the money-lenders and corporations they serve].
11. expat 11

    24 August 2011 at 8:31 pm

    Keep on drivin’ off that cliff boys and girls. just sayin’

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