Written By:
mickysavage - Date published:
7:35 am, October 5th, 2015 - 288 comments
Categories: Economy, Globalisation, International, john key, national, Politics, same old national, slippery, trade -
Tags: TPPA
There are media reports suggesting that the signing of the Trans Pacific Partnership Agreement may be imminent.
Vehicle issues have been resolved. Issues concerning pharmaceuticals still remain with New Zealand being strangely silent.
From Jo Moir in Stuff:
The issue has pitted the United States, which has argued for longer protections, against Australia and five other delegations who say such measures would strain national healthcare budgets and keep life-saving medicines from patients who cannot afford them.
Australia was happy with a compromise that would preserve its existing five-year protection period coupled with a buffer of extra time, a source close to the negotiations said.
But the source cautioned that other countries still had to agree. “There’s an 80 to 90 per cent chance” of a final deal, the person said.
A second source said that the position of Chile and Peru on the compromise was still unclear but the source was optimistic of success.
“Everything suggests that we can close” the agreement, the second person close to the closed-door negotiations said.
The United States offers 12 years of exclusivity for the clinical data used in developing drugs like cancer therapy Avastin, developed by Genentech, a division of Roche in order to encourage innovation.
Australia has insisted on five years of protection to bring down drug prices more quickly.
“We could live with some extension, but not, we don’t think a dramatic one,” Key told The Nation.
Thankfully the Australians are standing up to the Americans on the issue. New Zealand seems to be strangely silent, perhaps a result of all of those golf games.
As for dairy I can do no better than quote the words of our beloved leader who says that the TPPA isn’t “a very good deal for dairy”.
If dairy is the last issue waiting to be resolved I am sure New Zealand will buckle. Its lap dog approach to the negotiations preclude it from growing a spine now.
So limited market increase for a product that most farmers can’t currently produce economically, increased costs of pharmaceuticals and the introduction of a far reaching investor state dispute resolution procedure. You have to question why we are even thinking of signing this agreement. And our Prime Minister insists that no one knows what they are talking about because he has kept the terms of the agreement confidential.
This is one trade deal I believe we do not need to be in on the action with and a deal our Government should refuse to sign.
The current rise of populism challenges the way we think about people’s relationship to the economy.We seem to be entering an era of populism, in which leadership in a democracy is based on preferences of the population which do not seem entirely rational nor serving their longer interests. ...
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In less than 2 hours our sovereignty will be gutted.
Key will have done his job and sold us to his banking and financier masters in the US.
+100…I hope not…but fear so
Sovereignty gutted? No, that happened about 7 decades ago when we were signed into the ultimately useless United Nations.
+100
Higher power prices
Higher healthcare costs
No clean air
No clean water
privatised water reticulation
no sick leave
privatisation of national parks
more user pays
A whole of people broke.
As for the new jobs, migrants will take them all so no luck there.
terrible and terrifying if it happens…no more New Zealand as we know it and knew it
Should a TPPA be entered into I have an alternate view Millsy.
-Power prices will still fluctuate as per now there will be no increases or decreases over and above those seen over the last couple of decades
-Healthcare costs and PHARMAC will remain unchanged
-Air quality will remain on the same track it has been
-Water quality will remain on the same track it has been
-Water reticulation will remain as it has been
-Sick leave will remain as it has been
-National parks will remain as they have bee
-The same amount of user pays as now
No new people “broke”
New jobs will not all be taken by migrants but will remain contested as they are now with the vast majority going to NZ citizens/residents
Most of these things untouched by tppa. And as a migrant myself I take strong offence to your comment. Many friends and work friends of mine are migrants also. They have contributed much capital and skills to this country. Not take jobs of kiwis. Half nz universities would close without migrants.
But anyway a global economy is a fact. The key issue is that nz leverage as much advantage as possible. As we don’t know details of tppa not easy to judge this yet.
I would hope that Dairy access to Japan Canada and US be sufficient to outweigh any costs to NZ. It really is a cost benefits argument. If not get these concessions, then probably not good for nz.
Normally I would agree that is the case. However I am concerned by some of the restrictions that will be imposed via the ISDT should it be signed. I honestly think there is no valid price at which we should sell our ability to liegislate in the best interest of our country.
On this point I am in agreement with you. Our freedom MUST be paramount above all else. Otherwise it is a short term advantage for long term loss. This is, for me, a major concern.
I think if we lose this, National will be under huge pressure next election time.
@Amy
You probably don’t realise immigration is a way to keep wages down in this country. Immigration hides the lack of investment and diversity in our economy. Instead of creating value the government is just selling off assets to mostly foreign corporations.
You are right 50% of people in Uni are migrants but just shows how wrong that is, when 50% of locals can’t afford to go and NZ taxpayers are paying for a glorified English speaking finishing school popping out degrees for migrants who go on to work overseas, rather than enriching our country.
I was talking to a friends of mine – a family from Korea. They came to NZ, they split up, the husband left and the wife goes on social welfare even thought they have more than 1 million of property -she is ‘abandoned’. The kids do their secondary and uni degrees here, having become NZ citizens it is free. Then they get jobs in Australia and China and have never repaid their student loans. When asked why they are not detected coming into the country (obviously they get free welfare and medical care here) they just change to their other passport. The now adult kids have got their education here, work overseas and just use NZ as a social welfare when they visit their mother who is on welfare (Kiwi pension). She has now met an elderly Kiwi guy so now gets part of his pension. And now their other kids from their Dads side have come over and have had a baby here (free maternity, and their Dad from Korea also works in Australia while she and the Mother live in NZ on welfare. The various property holding are all in different names.
While surely there must be some positive immigration in this country, unfortunately this sort of scenario is what is actually happening in many cases.
Why NZ don’t have immigration rules that actually encourage real jobs?(presumably this is not possible in Australia as they have real rules to encourage migrants that contribute taxes and benefit Australia).
Why is their not some sort of penalty if migrants don’t actually produce any taxes but just live off Kiwi welfare I do not know.
In addition to get around money rules apparently you just go to Sky City and get a game where you have a 99% change of winning. Therefore if Winz ask why you are driving a BMW on welfare and have millions in property, you just say , I won it, my husband abandoned me with this property, and here is the cheque from Sky City. What can WINZ do?
I know much of what you say is very true. I can only speak of immigrants from China, and have little knowledge other. I am ashamed to say that there are two groups of immigrants from China. The good, skilled hard working who contribute much human and financial capital. I do not believe these replace kiwi workers. These are the ones i refer to in my post.
Sadly there are another group who come here with false qualifications, pay no tax at all, have no respect for kiwi laws or culture. Part of this is language, part ignorance. China has 1.4 billion people. I am always disappointed and surprised nz allows so many poor quality people in when there so many who can contribute.
@ Amy
Totally agree. I’m pro immigration but not the type of immigration they are allowing in NZ, where some immigrants are just rorting the system. NZ is a fantastic place to live and we could get fantastic immigrants to come here that DO help the economy and DO create business growth (outside of property and non pollluting) and DO want to live permanently here, and Do pay local taxes, BUT immigration NZ rules seem to make zero distinction.
+100 savenz …. “You are right 50% of people in Uni are migrants but just shows how wrong that is, when 50% of locals can’t afford to go and NZ taxpayers are paying for a glorified English speaking finishing school popping out degrees for migrants who go on to work overseas, rather than enriching our country.”…
…many of New Zealand’s top ‘A’ …’A+’ achieving graduates can not afford to go further with their university education….despite being asked to by their lecturers
this is Jonkey Nactional’s SHAME…it is a betrayal of New Zealand’s best and brightest youth and a betrayal of New Zealand education
So what does “Dairy access to Japan Canada and US…” do for the vast majority of New Zealanders who are not farmers, their bankers or farming investors? (Other than give us higher dairy prices and keeping in mind that we had to cut supply in order to try and raise the global milk powder price)
If you believe John Key (hehe) the price of pharmaceuticals won’t go up for consumers. But even if Key isn’t bullshitting, which is a stretch, then regardless, taxpayers will have to pay more to top up Pharmac, who will have to pay more.
Investor / state disputes – Offer no benefits to New Zealanders, other than potentially a tiny few companies who invest overseas should they get involved in such a dispute with another country and win the hearing.
And so on…
What a drama queen. If our country is so bad, and so horrible and so corrupt, where would you prefer to live? Whatever the answer is, move there, and do us all a favour. Get a grip people. We have issues, and can always get better. But lay off the end of the world rubbish, it’s pathetic and mindless. People complained for years about the brain drain. Now we have the opposite and still people whinge. By the way, if our country is so horrible, why do so many people want to live here? We cannot get all we want from the TPPA, no country can. Every country begins the negotiations with their ideal, all of them knowing, and accepting that no one will end up with that, because it’s simply not possible. Get a brain. Key is not going to sell our sovereignty down the river. That’s just stupid … Chem trails and George Bush killed 3,000 of his own people in the twin towers come to mind.
Corporations export and import among other things, misery on an epidemic scale
Many of those corporations cause death and injury beyond comprehension though waging and sponsoring warfare using physicsl and intangiable weapons
Chasing revenue profits and control at the expense of all else is old school mentality clearly holding appeal in some quarters with aspirational cheerleaders , Amanda
And these corporations, which you seem to universally condemn, have also created a standard of living and quality of life unimaginable 100 year ago, all because they were chasing profits, which you seem to consider a universal evil. And yes, the likes of Halliburton have done enormous harm through their support of war, but please do not judge all similarly. The non capitalist regime in my country of birth was responsible for around 30 million dead in the 1950s and 1960s alone. And still pursuers a policy that kiwis would consider pure evil.
Both Amanda and your post seem to entirely miss the point of this particular thread. Let’s look at tppa on its own merits or lack of, without this nonsense comment.
Those corporations have also enslaved many more millions in developing countries across Asia as opposed to lifting westerners into wealth, as well as trashing the land base of those countries. How are those Malaysian rainforests looking now? How clean are their rivers? How safe are their water supplies? What is their quality of life like? etc.
Let’s look at tppa on its own merits or lack of, without this nonsense comment
Claiming to be a migrant is no excuse for ignorance, Amy
First of all, I am not ‘claiming’ this. It is truth.
Second, if you think everyone who has a differing opinion to you is ignorant, then without doubt it is YOU who are ignorant.
In fact, not ignorant, maybe just not very intelligent as abuse is first sign of stupid people.
* Usury
* Profit
* Shareholders
* Investment
* Markets / equities / commodities / exotics / instruments
* Free trade
* Monopolies
* Regulation
* Finance
* Money / Currency – what is it
* Debt – what is it
* Charity
* NGO
* Think Tank
* Economics
* Finance
* Insurance
* Lobbyists
* Greed
* Fraud
* Corruption
* Exploitation
* Sweat shops
* Child Labour
* Law / LORE
* Human trafficking
* War(s) – People, drugs, terror et al
* Public Private Partnerships
* History
* etc
If one other human being suffers and the environment polluted in the name of [any of the above list], the path we have been put on, and endorse as a species, has failed
Debating the merits of ‘lifestyle and quality of life’ while war, misery, inequality, suffering and environmental degradation exists and escalates, is absurd
So what exactly do you propose as an economic system? All of these things have been there since the beginning of civilisation, and always will be. Capitalist, communist, socialist, theocracy. It’s inherent to humans and civilisations and development.
The only differing thing is the degree of the badness and the mitigation that government makes to soften human nature.
The communist regieme in China also reduced infant mortality, improved literacy (especially among the rural pesantry), and also stamped out archaic traditions such as foot binding.
Moreover it all but eliminated opium addiction, which was crippling in many Chinese communities.
Many, some, most or all of those corporations cause death and injury beyond comprehension?
The word used was “many”.
Did you miss it in the comment you replied to?
It’s rather vague don’t you think? How many? what proportion?
lol
“what is this thing you hu-mons call ‘many'” 🙄
Why do you need a precise proportion or number? How many corporations causing “death and injury beyond comprehension” is too many to be more than a few? Or is a few enough to be called many? How many instances of “death and injury beyond comprehension” do you need to see before you decide that it’s “too many” and the system is broken?
For goodness’ sake upgrade your fuzzy logic chip, there’s a good automaton.
sarcasm for deflection = lack of substance and an epic fail … vague generalisations also = no argument and laziness. Your fuzzy logic is that if 1 company causes death and injury beyond comprehension, that means they all do. Right, of course that is highly intelligent conclusion. If you had another brain cell, it would be lonely.
See, you failed to compute again.
If one company causes death and injury beyond comprehension, then that is one company too many and any system that allows it has failed.
But it’s not just one corporation, is it: vehicle companies have been exposed from the sixties. Oil companies denied AGW when they knew it was true, still do. Finance companies rig markets and rates. Food corporations deny water is a basic right, and employ people at below-poverty rates. Tobacco companies and asbestos companies have done stirling work in the field of human misery. And that’s without even going into the military-industrial complex. The entire system is corrupt and sociopathic.
So where’s your limit of tolerance? Capitalism is broken, and corporations need restraint, if they’re allowed to exist at all.
Why? “Another” necessarily requires one to be there in the first place, so the second would have company. As in “another failure to parse basic English”.
Sweeping generalisations about the corporate world based on “many” which could mean 2, or could mean 2,000 is not a conclusion. Yes 1 killer corporation is 1 too many, of course it is. But how many killer corporations do we need before we move from …”there are some rouges in an imperfect system (which can never be perfect because there will always be some rogues), to the whole system is rouge? I don’t know where the line is, but it’s not 1.
lol no, it’s not just one.
That’s what I said.
Are you genuinely unfamilar with all of the situations I listed after I said “But it’s not just one corporation, is it:”?
It’s not just one. It’s dozens and dozens, even thousands, of examples from many different corporations. It’s children locked in a burning sweatshop. It’s hazardous chemicals left to poison the populace, it’s thousands dying because emergency cooling tanks were taken offline to save money, it’s safety decisions based entirely on cash profit versus the cost of settlements paid to the families of people burned to death. All real cases from a variety of industries. If you haven’t heard any of this, then leave planet key and come down to earth with the rest of us.
The system is broken.
What an interesting rant.
So amazingly devoid of any informed content.
Please do inform us with the content I am missing? oh wait … we don’t know what’s in it, that’s the whole problem….
Key is not going to sell our sovereignty down the river. That’s just stupid
Tell that to Andrew Geddis:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/of-tpps-isdss-and-the-constitution
Here is his concluding statement:
To which I and many others agree entirely.
Ask Helen Clark, I guess.
How about you debate the merits?
Well, according to Helen Clark, whose bona fides as a non-neo-liberal seem to be unchallenged, New Zealand’s profile as an export nation means we simply cannot afford to be left outside such a major trading bloc.
I confess that I never voted for Clark’s Labour, but the effectiveness of her administration was that she never let the perfect be the enemy of good.
I guess that you missed the article giving the missing sentence on the weekend where Tim Groser pointed out the bit that the original Herald article somehow (!) managed to miss.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11522953
It is also the bit that Labour is querying, and that I’m querying.
So far there has been nothing that indicates that the TPPA will be a good deal for NZ. Everything that this free trade advocate has seen indicates that it will be a bad deal. Rather than being a deal that will free up trade, for NZ it appears highly likely that it will be a deal that provides a major restraint of trade.
Perhaps you should engage your reading skills and your brain before being an idiot emulating a dumb parrot…
Looking forward to Key selling this back here.
Dead Rat Meter Will be high.
Announcement in 1 hour according to news.
They have their lines prepared, don’t worry.
Indeed.
It is understood Key’s team are ready to launch a charm offensive on the agreement, in response to outspoken TPP critics such as University of Auckland’s Professor Jane Kelsey.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/72667521/tppa-nz-talks-push-back-deal-deadline
The problem for them doing that is that they’d have to release virtually all of the details of the agreement and wait for them to be digested to get any acceptance.
One of the primary objections to the way that this “agreement” (which has increasing sounded more like an assault than a negotiation) has been reached is the secrecy that it has been reached in. The government has talked to some carefully selected “stakeholders”, and from what I have heard in my industry that means only those most sympathetic to them, and then ignored their advice anyway.
Multiply that across the economy and society, and it is going to take some time to figure out consequences – because MFAT are bloody useless at that.
If the deal does nothing for us apart from cost us dearly over the next decade – which is what it looks like at present, then we should stay out of it.
They’ll spin it. Highlighting the benefits and downplaying (or concealing) the negatives.
Yes, the secrecy has many suspicious. And yes, if the benefits don’t weigh up we should walk away.
I thought you guys were anti dairy?, you know climate change and all that
It has been presented as the reason for entering into the TPPA. Without it you have to wonder why the Government is doing it.
What about developing new markets so our economy can transition away from a reliance on dairy.
By having longer patents on medicines?
By allowing overseas tribunals to sue our government?
good idea, so why vote for National if it is important to you?
@ BM
If the TPP prevents us from setting up new SOEs, that will leave us reliant on the local private sector to enter into these new markets.
However, for numerous reasons, our local private sector isn’t up to the task.
Most NZ businesses have no intention to enter into exporting.
There are no merits.
Just catch phrases.
I’m anti deals that favour massive global corporations, BM.
What about you?
I’m pro deals that develop trade and jobs.
Then you’d have to be against the TPP.
what do you know about it? i thought the problem is that is all secret and no one knows the details? you obviously know things no one else does. Seems any potential positive things about the TPPA are not real because we don’t know the detials, but all the bad things, are, well Paul knows all those things, and their details in locked and loaded and Paul has the proof. What a joke.
Anything Paul knows is publicly available documented information. The “positive things” are mostly all hairsay.
oh I see. All the bad is a given, and all the good is not a given. Right.
Almost: the bad is pretty well documented by the leaks, but there’s fuck all good in the leaks.
So the bad has evidence, the good has has speculation.
You do know there is a quantity of detail that has been leaked right Amanda?
Amanda you are aware of all the non trade issues.
Stop being so disingenuous.
Just another supporter of the corporate elite.
So we are to assume that leaks were not filtered? I’m open to the possibility that the leaks were filtered and only the the bad stuff was leaked. If you think that is impossible, that says more about you, than it does about me.
Some stuff has been leaked. Presumably the Government has got some projections about benefits but for some reason didn’t want to share those.
Amanda knows that
She is being deliberately disingenuous.
Show us a FTA that has actually promoted jobs in NZ.
Consider the cushioning impact of the CER and Chinafta on the GFC…
You are aware that before the China FTA NZ actually manufactured its own wine bottles.
You are aware that China does NOT allow the importation of sawn logs – NZ saw millers once the most efficient and advanced in the world are now being made redundant by the hundreds.
We used to manufacture quality yachts in this country – now its cheaper to have them built in China.
How many NZ clothes are “designed in NZ” made from crap in China?
I could list other numerous “restructurings” or “job losses” as a result of these FTAs – frankly the cushioning has been for those at the top of the income spectrum not for those at the bottom.
Presumably apart from saw mill owners, bottle factory owners, and quality yacht manufacturers.
An increase in exports from NZ to China of 260% over five years had no effect on the NZ labour market. If you say so.
The exports – as you are well aware – were mostly primary product. Unsawn logs, milk powder, meat carcasses – that sort of thing. The returns went to the minority at the top of the tree and those at the bottom were pissed upon as per usual.
I did say that there were many other sectors – not just the 3 I mentioned- that were equally badly affected by the FTA – the fact that there are now thousands more unemployed and 25% of our children live in poverty speaks for itself.
That’s entirely disingenuous – The massive increase in inequality and consequent morbidity statistics happened over the 1980s and ’90s. By the time Chinafta was concluded the damage had already been done.
The National Party causes far more downward pressure on wages than anything our exporters do.
Only five out of 29 sections of TPPA are about freeing up trade – the other 24, as far as we can tell, from Wikileaks, are about imposing restrictions to IP and patent rules, which favour the big corporations rather than the consumer. So you should be against the TPPA!
Key is saying we have never been sued under investor state provisions.
I didn’t think that any of the free trade deals we have have such a provision.
Can any one clarify please?
If that’s the case did he say that, therefore, we would never be sued as a result of signing the TPP? That’s certainly the inference he is inviting.
I wonder what his rationale might be for such an implication?
(a) In some way NZ is exempting itself from any such provisions?
(b) Multinational corporates would be too scared of NZ’s response to try it on (despite having done so against far bigger countries)?
(c) Multinational corporates feel so fond of NZ that, even if they thought they had a good case, they’d never do that to us?
(d) No future NZ government is ever likely to do anything to upset any major multinational corporate?
There must be some reason relevant to signing the TPP to explain why he thought it useful to raise this historical fact (assuming it is a fact) – so what is his rationale?
The Chinese FTA – signed by Labour under Helen Clark, and where current deputy leader Annette King was a cabinet minister – has ISDS provisions.
http://www.chinafta.govt.nz/1-The-agreement/2-Text-of-the-agreement/12-Chapt-11-Investment/0-section11-part2.php
This page notes a number of our trade agreements with ISDS clauses.
http://www.bellgully.co.nz/resources/resource.04037.asp
apparently all trade agreements have disputes clauses, however the concerns being raised are that the ISDS has been steadily weighted in favour of the corporates in recent agreements…in other words they aint what they used to be.
Yes there are BUT we are not in FTA’s with the most litigious nations/companies… and some FTA’s use the WTO dispute process, not the former International Trade lawyers making decisions behind close doors which cannot be challenged… yet
Andrew Geddis has a very good post on the matter of ISDS’s here:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/of-tpps-isdss-and-the-constitution
…all very depressing if it is signed …jonkey nactional will go down in the history of New Zealand
New corporate designed Red Peak flag anyone?… New flag for new overseas corporate run New Zealand culture?
Now where are those Greens?…new corporate Greens?
Yup. where are the Greens?
Just another neoliberal party under Shaw I fear.
what would you like them to do Paul? Please be specific.
a press release wouldn’t go astray.
edit,
This is the only thing I can find from the past week,
http://www.voxy.co.nz/politics/even-tppa-supporters-want-more-transparency-greens/5/232939
their policy on tpp is clear though
It is, as is their history of action on this. I think in general they’ve been pretty quiet for some months now, bugger all press releases or new information on their website on anything. Makes me wonder what is going on. Some will say it’s the secret taking over of the party by the neoliberal cabal. I say they’re regrouping under Turei and Shaw as co-leaders and doing some internal work to get organised for the next big push.
“Yup. where are the Greens?
Just another neoliberal party under Shaw I fear.”
You’re playing a dangerous game ther Paul. Why are you repeating right wing memes designed to undermine the GP?
Even if Shaw is a neoliberal trojan horse (would love to see some evidence btw), he can’t just run the party the way he wants. The party is made up of many people and structures and they can’t be controlled by one co-leader.
edit,
“The Green Party has been calling for the National Government to walk away from the TPPA because it restricts the right of democratic governments to regulate to protect human health and the environment,” said Mr Shaw.
http://www.voxy.co.nz/politics/even-tppa-supporters-want-more-transparency-greens/5/232939
Either Shaw is a liar or you are wrong Paul. Which is it?
Yeah – we’re just awaiting ShonKey’s finale : sell off NZ to his USA-dominated corporate mates, and there’s not one little thing we can do to stop him. A dismal future.
I sometimes wonder what he’s going to do with the rest of his life. Continue to make money of course. and play golf. But how will he exercise his little mind, and what sort of other interests will he take up – because surely money-making and golf will pall after a while ? and he’s never shown an interest in anything else.
Good
Then the details will come out, it’ll be good for NZ as a whole and, once again, the left will seen to be crying wolf
@PR I think it’s unfair to suggest that the ‘chicken littles and loons’ on this site are representative of ‘the left”
Thats a fair call
Some of the left will be made to look chicken littles and some will know they’ve helped make a positive difference to NZ
Is ‘chicken little’ the new meme you were taught to spout?
Chicken little and the Boy who cried wolf are basically interchangable terms when it comes to describing some on the left
and some on the righf when the left speaks or are in power. also pointing out potential putfalls/drawbacks is nof the same as unsubstantiated squeals that the sky is falling.
remember the dcono y was going to collapse if we went nuclear free. it didnt. the society would collapse if homosexual kaw reform passed. it didnt.
so to suggest chicken littlisms are the sole bastion of the left is just obtuse.
Thats why its only describing some on the left, not all lefties are negative of course
although its amusing to see that virtually everytime Labour declares a crisis in some industry that industry improves almost overnight
When is “then”, exactly?
I thought that even once it was signed into law, it was going to be secret, and remain so for something stupid like 4 years?
I believe the details of the negotiation will stay secret, the final TPPA itself will be available for review and ratification within a month or two.
Of course it can’t be signed into law and then remain secret. Who on earth told you that? Kelsey?
When will the detail of the TPPA be released then Matthew?
Right wing strategies
#2.
No real arguments.
Just ad hominem attacks on Kelsey
She’s talking crap … how can she know about all the impending corruption scandals and disasters, and selling our sovereignty and the end of NZ as we know it … if the details of the deals are not known to anyone, in any country, at this stage?
Because she is much more informed on the TPP this neither you or I.
No, she is talking about the sections she has read, which are limited to the ones that have been leaked. She is pointing out potential pitfalls. Please don’t confuse people who point out potential pitfalls with people promising certain things will happen.
By all means disagree but the ad hominems just distract people from potential legitimate arguments.
I think it’s 30 days that the final text is released.
Within a month of signing; years before ratification
Oh? That sounds like complete bullshit to me.
The ratification is done by the executive council and is essentially whatever is required by the treaty. It could be as few as 15 sitting days of a select committee for NZ.
It could be longer. The detail of *when* a binding action like ratification is usually inside the treaty itself. Since we don’t know what has been negotiated in secret for that, you can’t say with any certainty
Bearing in mind the way that the TPPA negotiation has proceeded and that the fast track has been done in major holdup places like the US congress, and the elections in various places, I’d be surprised if the period to ratification is more than a 2-3 months. 6 months at the outside if Obama wants to make a thing of it before the US presidential election clamor drowns it out.
http://mfat.govt.nz/Treaties-and-International-Law/03-Treaty-making-process/index.php
You think Obama can get this ratified before the presidential election? I seriously doubt that. But certainly the text will be public for many months before ratification by anyone. I can’t see the Key government rushing ratification. That step currently seems reserved for important issues like rugby bar negotiating hours and flag ballot papers.
Really surprised that Hooton doesn’t know that the full text will remain secret until 4 years AFTER it is signed, or maybe he does but doesn’t want to admit it.
I’ve picked up along the way somewhere, that the executive council (not the cabinet, not the National caucus, not Parliament) would choose to ratify the TPP agreement, and that it would not be made publically available for debate before that ratification occurred.
Also I picked up somewhere that the government would be changing laws to fit with the TPP, again without the details of the agreement being made public.
Perhaps i’m mistaken.
Lanthanide
The Executive Council essentially implements decisions of Cabinet. It would be inconceivable that the Cabinet could be bypassed in respect of ratification of TPP. On his return Mr Groser will be making a full report to Cabinet.
But in reality Groser’s approval of TPP, assuming it occurs today, will have been subject to the closest attention of the Cabinet members most involved.
It seems inconceivable that a New Zealand government would be reported to the UN by the Law Society for degrading human rights and the rule of law, and yet here we are.
The executive council is merely the Cabinet with the Governor General in attendance. Thats how they get the ‘Hon” part to their titles, as members of the executive Council
In reality its the same as cabinet with a different letterhead.
Except that a quorum of the executive council is 3 people.
Yes, but I don’t think anything goes to the Exec Council until signed off by Cabinet – and if a PM tried to put something through the EC that the GG thought did not have the support of Cabinet, I suspect we would be into territory where the reserve powers would come into play.
“…if a PM tried to put something through the EC that the GG thought did not have the support of Cabinet, I suspect we would be into territory where the reserve powers would come into play.”
That’s rubbish. The convention is that the GG’s reserve powers are never used. And do you really think the current Key toady GG would use them? He’d first have to know cabinet hadn’t seen something he was signing off on, which he wouldn’t have a clue about anyway; and even if he did know Key would tell him everything’s fine and he’d do it anyway.
As I say, it is just unimaginable something like this would ever be put to the EC without going through Cabinet yet. You’re talking about a world where Key thinks he can’t get TPP through his Cabinet so he sneaks it to EC and GG. I don’t think that is a real scenario.
@ Matthew –
No, a world where the cabinet rejects the TPPA, but he takes it to the EC and GG anyway.
Wouldn’t he have reported before he went on where our bottom lines were and what we would or would not compromise and obtained agreement?
No
Yes, you are mistaken on laws getting changed before text made public. See
http://mfat.govt.nz/Treaties-and-International-Law/03-Treaty-making-process/index.php
It looks like anyone who has sighted the tpp paperwork can’t speak about it for 4 years. This must be an awesome deal then, it’s so good it’s free from review, it’s untouchable, unseeable. I wonder if it’s almost a religious document.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/02/australian-mps-allowed-to-see-top-secret-trade-deal-text-on-condition-of-confidentiality
Only the negotiating documents are confidential for four years. The final text is released soon after negotiations are finished.
30 days after deal is doe, I think I heard.
I have no expertise to answer this question but it occurred to me that the answer to it may have importance:
Do the documents that have been involved in the negotiation process have any legal standing or standing in a future ISDS procedure – e.g., to interpret the meaning of the ‘final text’ that will be publically available?
If so, then that would be an argument for them not being kept secret as they could affect the de facto meaning of the final text (e.g., what the undertakings mean, or were agreed to mean).
Language, after all, is a strange beast and words do not necessarily mean what they might appear to mean given quite a different context of understanding.
“…..can’t speak about it for 4 years.” and will be in Hawaii by then anyway
Not much point in knowing the details when it can no longer be changed.
It still has to get past the US Confress, so not quite time to be a smarmy arsehole yet Matthew
did u see this :
http://www.salon.com/2015/09/29/the_unexpected_upshot_of_john_boehners_ouster_the_trans_pacific_partnership_is_in_danger/
@Tracey ….. and I love your generosity suggesting Matthew has a choice about his attitude …
can you post a quote from professor kelsey stating that? If not have the courage to withdraw the statement
Quisling.
Kumquot
durian….
Blah
Just wondering what you are basing “Good for NZ as a whole” on being that you have zero idea of what is in the deal. Even the PM has said it isn’t going to be completely good so you would seem to know more about it than he does.
Some industries will lose out, some will gain but in the final talley NZ will be better off
was “talley” a freudian slip?
We’ll go with…yes
😆
Hmmmm I once sat in on a Cabinet Economic Committee meeting in the 80’s and Muldoon used almost exactly those same words……. Look how well NZ did under his “administration”.
If tppa is signed can it be revoked by subsequent change of Gov’t?
The government is sovereign, so yes, anything in principle can be revoked.
In practice, pissing off your international trading partners can be a very bad idea.
The existing TPP has a six month withdrawal clause – see article 20.8 at http://mfat.govt.nz/downloads/trade-agreement/transpacific/main-agreement.pdf
It would be unthinkable for there not to be a similar withdrawal provision in any wider TPP. If there were not, NZ should not ratify.
Ffloyd specifically asked “subsequent change of Gov’t”. Unless you have the inside running that there’s going to be an early election in 2016 Matthew, you haven’t really addressed Ffloyd’s point.
Lolz, maybe it’s the Collins effect.
A country can pull out at any time in the future, with six months notice ( under 2005 clause anyway).
Ok, that’s very encouraging, then.
Still, taking advantage of those provisions is likely to upset trading partners.
Also in practical terms, if law changes were made in order to accomodate the TPP, they would need to be reversed. That may be as simple as repealing those acts, but if there were additional changes added on top, then it becomes less straight forward as the legislation would need to re-written.
like Greece can pull out of the Euro Matthew?
No, the treaty setting up the Euro did not provide for any withdrawal mechanism – deliberately so; membership was meant to be irrevocable
but does not preclude it…as evidenced by Mr Schlaube’s proposal.
Ask your legal advisors whether it is better to sign a poor agreement and try and extract oneself or not sign in the first place…if they plump for the former, get some new advisors.
So speaks a spin merchant for the neoliberal order.
That is dated 2005 Matthew. Genuine question, do ou know if the clause is still in there?
I have been told that there is a similar or identical withdrawal clause. If it, we should not sign and certainly not ratify.
so someone has breached the confidentiality that is apparently so crucial to the success of the tpp by telling you what is in it? Interesting.
It’s not totally confidential. The negotiating text hasn’t been released is the main complaint – but negotiating texts are never released. The negotiating text for the Paris COP is not available (as far as I know).
“I have been told that there is a similar or identical withdrawal clause.”
Who told you? I thought these negotiations were meant to be kept secret from the general public.
Sorry, Tracey has already asked.
Your bland assurances are not very convincing in the light of your hissy fit this morning after Kathryn Ryan contradicted you and pointed out that tobacco corporations are suing the Australian government.
You were fortunate that it was only Mike Williams beside you instead of someone like Laila Harré or Matthew Campbell.
Hissy fit? You were listening to a different show.
I heard a hissy fit
You must have a very sensitive disposition.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/201773282/politics-with-mike-williams-and-matthew-hooton
I think it’s you who has a sensitive disposition Mathew
Nah, if he doesn’t call someone a “c*nt” it’s not a Hotoon hissy fit.
“…a single case that won’t be won….Australian government will prevail over Philip Morris…”
http://unctad.org/en/Pages/DIAE/ISDS.aspx?Paged=TRUE&p_ID=2975&PageFirstRow=181&&View={FC8B9ABA-CF09-4491-89D1-99DE23534CA1}
…try six hundred and eight
Completely off topic Matthew – but what evidence do you have for your recent tweet?
The world is already much colder than in the medieval era. Time to warm it up.
Or were you just being silly again?
Hissy fit, meltdown, tantrum, angry outburst—any of those would describe your reaction to being shown up by Kathryn Ryan.
You are truly obsessed by that nine to noon slot. I should be flattered. Except you clearly hear things that aren’t there.
You are truly obsessed by that nine to noon slot.
I’m interested in the manner and extent to which the media are dominated by right wing voices such as yourself. What is fascinating in exchanges like the ones you rule every Monday morning is not so much what people like you say, which is transparently propaganda and intellectually barren, but the failure of your interlocutors. Kathryn Ryan, although flustered by your display of impatience, at least showed some spirit yesterday; Williams might as well not even be there.
I should be flattered.
No, you should not be flattered. This isn’t about you, it’s about the absence of a coherent voice to counter your relentlessly on-message stream of government-friendly propaganda. It’s not that there are’nt people capable of challenging you, of course—you no doubt have mortifying flashbacks to being shown up by Matthew Campbell, Laila Harré and, more recently, Lynn Freeman. [1] But the Radio New Zealand management sees fit for some reason to “oppose” you nearly every week with a patsy who makes Alan Colmes look tough.
Except you clearly hear things that aren’t there.
I urge others to read my verbatim transcript [2] of your performance yesterday and see which of us is telling the truth.
[1] http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-14072015/#comment-1043304
[2] http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-06102015/#comment-1078888
and contrasting Rod Oram’s interview today, well….enough said
Most pundits here could challenge Hooton more robustly than Williams.
It should be called “from the right and from the far right”.
Or “Hannity and Colmes”.
Sorry, should have said Parliament is sovereign. There is a difference.
Key thinks his government is sovereign. So does the current speaker. Many in MSM do, too. The effect is the same so you’re not too far off, really.
Unfortunately we can’t isolate ourselves from the world, the rules of the game are not set by us we simply need to play the game the best we can As Helen our dear ex leader said there is no option not to sign this agreement This arguement re dairy vs pharmac is also silly if we become wealthier because of this deal the more we have to pay for social expenditure. Likewise a short, medium and long term perspective is also required The chicken little arguement about corporates suing governments is also a red herring. The fact is corporates not the state are now by far the greatest generators of wealth, jobs and innovation globally, we have distribution equity issues we need to deal with under capitalism but don’t cloud the two by thinking adopting statist, isolationist 19th century policy will make us better off
Extreme right wing strategy #3.
Don’t present an argument.
Find a meme.
I see the ‘chicken little’ meme is being developed by our resident trolls.
But I thought we were a rock star economy already while others had to resort to QE and other loony stuff to survive?
I’m sorry Tracey, not really a criticism, but whenever I hear that term ‘rock star’ economy, I think of that Rudd creature from some band or other, who more and more seems to me to be the living embodiment of Key’s ‘rock star economy.
dont be sorry. rock star sconomg was another empty term swallowed by the masses to make them feel good
Anyone got any details on the purported deal reached between Australia and the USA on biologics?
Penny Bright
Just pay your rates penny
+1000
I would be happy for her to just pay what she owes, but I suppose with the additional costs involved with chasing payment the council should really +1000
What has that got to do with what she asked? Idiot.
The right wing play the persons, not the ball.
They have no argument.
If they sign a deal today, our next step is “How we stop it.” I see the following:
Our dictators have the power to make it NZ law at any time, but doing so would be politically disastrous if the US congress ultimately rejects it. American rejection is a huge possibility. (60% is needed to approve. Only 41% to reject.) If agreement is announced today, the earliest congress could vote would be mid-February. That will be in the midst of the US presidential primaries and TPPA will be a major issue.
Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders are both firmly opposed to TPPA. Hillary Clinton is sitting on the fence. But allies she must have to become president (unions, environmentalists) are opposed.
This game is far from over.
+100…good points AmaKiwi…and here is to hoping the good people of USA rise up and stop the corporate control TPPA in its tracks
http://www.salon.com/2015/09/29/the_unexpected_upshot_of_john_boehners_ouster_the_trans_pacific_partnership_is_in_danger/
I’m no conspiracy theorist, but this pretty much locks in a new world order that will be hard to budge but I don’t recall any world order, no matter how permanent it looks, surviving for ever. I think it will be challenged from the very get go as I don’t think it is up to coping to the future problems of the world that will arise in the next 50 years or so, and in fact is more likely to contribute to them. However, it will be able to call on vast technological resources to repress any alternative movements, most notably mass surveillance.
I’m no conspiracy theorist
ahh dude at the very least you made me laugh out loud on that one 🙂
and Monsanto will finally gets its avaricious way to flood us with genetically modified foods.
bye bye any environmental protection.
What, how?
The TPPA ISDS clauses don’t apply to laws made for public health reasons.
Careful, Amanda (higher up) is adamant that no one has seen anything (cos it’s secret) so can’t have an authority on its content.
And just by coincidence this was a topic of conversation on RNZ this morning.
Not online yet.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon
09:05
Biotechnology sector wants GM restrictions eased
NZBIO says the The Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act hasn’t kept pace with rapid developments in GM technology. It says the current legislation fails to take into account relative risk and puts undue hardship on local businesses and researchers. However others say further releases of GM plants and animals puts New Zealand’s clean green brand at risk.
Yes, a coincidence. HSNO Act is outdated and the biotech sector isn’t happy with it because the act is a millstone around the neck of that sector and NZ science in general. This isn’t the first and won’t be the last time they tell the government that.
As to “others say further releases of GM plants and animals puts New Zealand’s clean green brand at risk,” it isn’t obvious why we should knacker an entire branch of science for the sake of an advertising slogan that’s been bullshit from the first day it was used.
Our national brand may be compromised but risking it’s massive value to experiment with a new unproven science seems a tad illogical. It’s a bit like the flag debate.
There are two issues with that from the biotech perspective. The first is that we’re wrecking the NZ branch of an entire field of science that we have a lot of skills in to protect an advertising slogan that is quite simply a lie. The second is that there is no genuine conflict between “clean, green” and biotechnology, only a bullshit ideological one in which hippies equate “clean, green” with “low-tech.” Trying to hold back tecnnological advancement because there’s money in appealing to neurotic middle-class types’ enthusiasm for “natural” things is a really bad strategy.
The second is that there is no genuine conflict between “clean, green” and biotechnology, only a bullshit ideological one in which hippies equate “clean, green” with “low-tech.” Trying to hold back tecnnological advancement because there’s money in appealing to neurotic middle-class types’ enthusiasm for “natural” things is a really bad strategy.
The ‘bullshit’ is flowing through your comments so I have highlighted the standouts for you to ponder on
The name calling ad-homs and false dichotomy represent themselves, while expanding the ‘bullshit’ pile you manage to excrete
It’s true I don’t hold hippies or organic food enthusiasts in high regard.
I’ve been wrong plenty of times before and it’s always possible this is a further instance – are you able to point to some genuine conflict between love for the natural environment and biotechnology as practiced by NZ scientists?
The view that the customer base for organic food consists of “neurotic middle-class types [with an] enthusiasm for ‘natural’ things” is what is technically referred to as an “opinion.” As such, it’s not based on any carefully-formulated definitions of the terms “neurotic,” “middle-class,” “enthusiasm” or “natural,” nor on any survey of organic food purchasers to test how many meet these definitions. As with any other opinion, feel free to disagree.
Generic science is “unproven”??? E
Ok, the application of the science is unproven, there are now multiple countries around the world suffering from significant health problems due to GM food that is now capable of being drenched in herbicide/pesticide.
If there was a good case for GM food there wouldn’t be so much caution from most countries on it’s use. And it wouldn’t be the morally corrupt companies like Monsanto and Dow behind their introduction and use.
Look, a coincidence theorist. …
Much of the world understands and is learning rapidly, that ‘the science’ is corporate quakery and the neagitive consequences too high risk
Simpletons are still impressed by bling bling as it appeals to their ‘intellect ‘
I hope you will apply this statement to AGW
“….HSNO Act is outdated…”
Theoretically, approval for the release of a hazardous substance or new organism is conditional on certain safeguards being in place.
Like folk who don’t want their land, crops and water supply contaminated by agrichemicals being able to assume that their Territorial Authority will protect their rights.
That the Courts will protect their rights.
Under the Crimes Act…http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/DLM330768.html
“298B Contaminating food, crops, water, or other products
Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years who contaminates food, crops, water, or any other products, without lawful justification or reasonable excuse, and either knowing or being reckless as to whether the food, crops, water, or products are intended for human consumption, and—
(a)
intending to harm a person or reckless as to whether any person is harmed; or
(b)
intending to cause major economic loss to a person or reckless as to whether major economic loss is caused to any person; or
(c)
intending to cause major damage to the national economy of New Zealand or reckless as to whether major damage is caused to the national economy of New Zealand.”
How many times has that section of the Crimes Act been tried in an NZ Court?
Despite hundreds of complaints from folk who have been the victims of Agrichemical Trespass?
As for GE….
(the email I fired of to Natrad this morning…)
“Can GE and Organics cohabit successfully?
A tale related in this article from the Waikato Times suggests that
when challenged….the rights of the GE farmer to conduct his business
as he sees fit outweigh the rights of the organic farmer to do
likewise.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/72430808/neighbour-disputes-an-ageold-problem%E2%80%A6
“Organic farming is another activity that can clash with the
neighbours. Spray drift and fertilizer can be carried by the wind
across boundary fences and who is responsible?
It was interesting to read the court decision in Western Australia
recently where an organic farmer sued his neighbour for damages when
some sheaves of genetically modified canola blew onto his property.
As a consequence the organic farmer lost his certification and he
asked the court to prevent his neighbour from growing GM crops.
The case went to the Supreme Court and on to the Court of Appeal.
The Court ruled against the organic farmer, and said “that the farmer
could not, by putting their land to an abnormally sensitive use
thereby unilaterally enlarge their own rights and impose limitations
on the operations of their neighbours to an extent greater than would
otherwise be the case”.
Interesting, and while we do not grow GM crops here in NZ yet, this
case will set a precedent by which claims in this country will be
decided by our New Zealand Courts.” ”
This is seriously scary shit.
…this case will set a precedent by which claims in this country will be
decided by our New Zealand Courts.”
Well, good. Unless an organic farmer can demonstrate actual harm resulting from genetically-modified organisms crossing to their farm, they should be laughed out of court. Losing their organic certification isn’t actual harm – if that’s the “harm” claimed, their issue is with the people responsible for the certification, not their neighbours. Let them take the certifying authority to court. The fact that some new technology interferes with your special woo in some undefinable and unquantifiable way isn’t an argument for banning that new technology.
“The fact that some new technology interferes with your special woo in some undefinable and unquantifiable way isn’t an argument for banning that new technology.”
Woo, sorry, who is talking about “banning”.
Surely your preferred expression of ‘science’ can co exist with the ‘middle class neurotic hippy organic farmers version of ‘science’.
Because the stringent standards required for organic certification, and the resultant profits that ensue from that certification (because they would not go to the effort and expense demanded for certification were it not profitable) do not allow for contamination from agrichemicals, non approved fertilisers and GMOs.
In a just world, the GE farmer would be expected to keep the shit from his farming activities on his side of the fence.
In fact, any farmer should be compelled to keep harmful materials used or produced in their operation within the confines of their legal boundaries.
If I, for instance, hurled poison over the fence onto my neighbour’s paddock and one of his valuable cows, aka ‘profit producing stock units’ got sick or died…I could, and should, be held liable.
However, if my neighbour chucks something over the fence of my residential property that made one of my family, aka ‘non profit making units’ gets sick, I have absolutely no recourse. In fact, despite my protests, the Crimes Act, the HSNO Act, the RMA, (and about 20 other Acts that control the use of agrichemicals) there is no agency able/willing to protect my rights.
This is because the rights of those conducting commercial activities outweigh the rights of mere private citizens.
This is the situation now, in NZ.
And under a TPPA regime, this is very like to get much, much worse.
…there is no agency able/willing to protect my rights.
The courts dismissed the charges against you,
Justice Connell.
Is there no lawyer who can make something of that? If it’s reasonable to defend yourself against someone’s actions it follows that said actions are an assault.
“The courts dismissed the charges against you, ”
There was only the one charge.
“Is there no lawyer who can make something of that? If it’s reasonable to defend yourself against someone’s actions it follows that said actions are an assault.”
No.
That is what we thought, back in the days when we were idling under the illusion that proper investigation and enforcement actually happens.
Before we realised that our rights to fair and equitable treatment were overridden by the interests of the influential, high- profile neighbour.
Back in the days when we foolishly believed that the value we placed on the truth was universal.
Have I decided whether the Police are corrupt or incompetent?
No, but it is likely to be a combination of both.
Do I have a shitload of documentation, evidence of ‘irregularities’ in the investigations done by the Police and the Regional Council?
Hell yes.
Oh, OAB, for the record, here’s the link to the article in the local rag…
http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/5450970/Hunting-bow-charge-dismissed you quoted from.
You missed out the best quote, Justice Connell again, who found the pilot’s evidence to be “…”unreliable” and laden with “inconsistencies and prevarication”…”.
You have a nice evening.
In a just world, the GE farmer would be expected to keep the shit from his farming activities on his side of the fence.
It would be “just” to expect a farmer to prevent wind, water etc carrying plant material from his property onto a neighbouring one? Seriously? What preventive measures are you picturing the nation’s farmers taking to ensure that organic material respects property boundaries?
You seem to be conflating the reasonable demand that farmers keep agricultural spraying confined to their own property with the unreasonable demand that they enforce a sterile boundary which no organic material can cross. They’re two different things.
And back we come to the HSNO Act. Which conflates the two.
I.e. Agrichemicals and GE organisms BOTH come under the Act.
At the moment.
Until EPA are convinced by Those Who Would Profit that GE is somehow ‘naturally occuring’.
Mr Vercoe
(http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/72430808/neighbour-disputes-an-ageold-problem%E2%80%A6)
…also seems to see organic farming as somehow more problematic in terms of neighbourhood disputes, when in actual fact, since organic farming usually adds nothing hazardous or unnatural into the environment it usually attracts little or no attention from HSNO Act enforcers.
Not that, when it comes down to the wire, the HSNO Act gets much in the way of enforcement anyway.
Until EPA are convinced by Those Who Would Profit that GE is somehow ‘naturally occuring’.
Can you point to any organism involved in NZ agriculture that hasn’t been modified by humans? As an example of what I mean, check out Ray ‘Banana Man’ Comfort’s video on the “naturally-occurring-because-God” banana. View from 0:30 to 1:27. Ray explains how the fact the banana is so cleared designed for human consumption proves the existence of God, while unkind scientists overlay a shot of an actual wild banana and point out the modern yellow one is the product of thousands of years’ worth of modification by humans. This banana, like pretty much everything else we eat, including the animals, isn’t “naturally-occurring,” it’s “heavily modified.”
You have no idea have you! So you come along with a crap argument like that… Of course everything we grow and breed is “modified”, but not in the way GE modifies. There is a natural hybridisation and sometimes even that is not very clever – or ethical. Especially when the hybridisation is done to ensure the seed company holds the power over farmers.
Most GE modification of seed today is to produce:
a. seeds that cannot be stored for replanting by the farmer (and get the same product), and
b. crops that are resistant to weed sprays.
Roundup Ready GM crops have become the mainstay of Agribusiness in the US. These include soy, beet sugar, and corn—which supply the bulk of the processed food industry. Roundup use has doubled in the US in 6 years mainly as a result of the emergence of “super weeds”.
The two objectives above, ensure that Monsanto makes a killing – in more ways than one.
“This banana, like pretty much everything else we eat, including the animals, isn’t “naturally-occurring,” it’s “heavily modified.””
And yet, after thousands of years of selective breeding and attempted cross-breeding the banana is not producing Bt toxin or glowing in the dark.
No matter how many times the jellyfish humps the banana tree.
The two objectives above, ensure that Monsanto makes a killing – in more ways than one.
“Monsanto the Bogeyman is coming! Somebody round up some flaming torches and pitchforks!”
GE in New Zealand is mostly of interest to crown research institutes and universities, none of which focus on the two applications you apparently consider the main applications of GE.
And yet, after thousands of years of selective breeding and attempted cross-breeding the banana is not producing Bt toxin or glowing in the dark.
The depressing thing is that this is the level of thought the anti-GE lobby brings to the issue.
So it’s reasonable to ask for sprays, nutrients, pollution to stay on a property but not for seeds/plants?
I would think if you had pine forest on your property in the tussock McKenzie country that was a source of wilding pines, and was spreading onto your neighbour’s properties, that you should be paying your neighbours for their removal as it’s affecting their land. This is a similar case. But I guess some live in a world where they can do whatever they want on their land and don’t care about the consequences on others.
Good luck getting seeds to respect fences. In the case of wilding pines, there’s a case to be made that the neighbour is turning your property into a pine forest against your will. That’s actual harm. In the organics-vs-GE case, the case is that someone won’t sign your magic woo certificate if your neighbour is growing plants that make the woo-people angry. In that case, your issue is with the woo-people, not your neighbour. Take them to court and force them to make a case for not signing your magic woo certificate – it’s really none of your neighbour’s business.
Strange, two species of plants in two scenarios that significantly impact on people’s lives, yet you have polar opposite reactions to each. I could say that you’re being biased…
Well, shit, far be it from me to be biased. I withdraw. Let’s agree the two scenarios are equivalent, and we can then agree that GE in this country should face a similar level of controls on it to the planting of pine trees…
Interview now available online here:
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/201773274/biotech-industry-calls-for-eased-restrictions-on-gmos
thx vv
Speaking from a USA perspective, Dean Baker, co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research:
“This really is a deal that’s being negotiated by corporations for corporations and any benefit it provides to the bulk of the population of this country will be purely incidental.”
Yves Smith, an investment banking expert who runs the Naked Capitalism blog adds: “There would be no reason to keep it so secret if it was in the interest of the public.”
http://americablog.com/2013/11/bill-moyers-trans-pacific-partnership-free-trade-agreement-death-democracy.html
Barker and Smith, in the half-hour long video debate available on the above link note that the deal is actually ANTI-free trade. That is, FTA’s usually lower the cost of products to the consumer, whereas this one raises them . . .
+100 Murray Simmonds ….good to see American fight back against the TPPA
…lets unite with our fellow Americans in the fight against the corporates trying to seize anti- democratic control …the war is not over yet
I agree, the secrecy is, imo, NOT about trade positions, because everyone is spying on each other. THAT is what Mr Key said, remember? We spy on our allies for commercial purposes. So the secrets are all known through the spying. That only leaves the public to be kept in the dark…
Livestream:
https://ustr.gov/TPP/Atlanta-Livestream
Well TPP press conference now delayed again – some reports say until 1pm NZ; others say 3pm NZ.
For a bit of light relief, here are a couple of tweets from Richard Madan, CTV News Parliamentary Correspondent, at the Atlanta talks that made me laugh:
https://twitter.com/RichardMadan/status/650793734192369665
https://twitter.com/RichardMadan/status/650780882190602240
this tweet from Washington-based journalist 8 mins ago:
Source: #TPP deal was imminent but NZ demanding more access to US dairy market. @agripulse
https://twitter.com/PhilipBrasher/status/650799528061349888
Thanks. TV3 also currently reporting that Groser is in one to one talks with US. trade representative.
http://t.co/yXMliCmYVV
but surely Key settled that with Barrack while at the UN???
In this meeting, you mean? LOL!
http://thespinoff.co.nz/29-09-2015/politics-photochop-john-key-catches-up-with-barack-obama-at-the-un/
And I love this photo of Key’s speech to the UN.
https://twitter.com/toby_etc/status/649811567052132352
“It’s not a good deal for dairy”
But it’s better than what we have now.
Well, in all honesty, we don’t know yet, as the deal is secret.
But, according to leaks, there will be a tiny improvement.
This is completely dwarfed by the extra costs we’ll wear to pay for new medicines and the cost to our environment, health and labour laws.
But, as you’re a shill for the 0.001%, I guess you don’t care about ordinary people.
On one hand you say its secret, then you say the health costs will be higher than the benefits.. ok.
It is secret.
What we know is through leaks.
You know that, right?
You know leaks about documents that haven’t been signed off yet
and given negotiations are give and take, if it is better for dairy than it was yesterday, something must be worse for someone than it was yesterday.
“But it’s better than what we have now.”
It may be better than what we have now, for diary, but that doesn’t mean the deal overall is better than what we have now, as a country.
It will be, or we wont sign it.
In whose opinion will it be better? National’s?
In their opinion, it made sense to stop contributing to the superannuation fund. In their opinion it made sense to sell off 49% of our electricity companies. In their opinion it made sense to include SCF in the deposit guarantee scheme even though a cursory amount of due-diligence would have shown them to be in breach of the terms and conditions of the deposit guarantee scheme.
I’m not sure I agree with their opinions.
+1000 lanth
we?!?
Thank god these negotiators are well organised!!!
Oops, Oh look the press conference is cancelled?????!
NZ playing hard ball on pandas.
🙂 hope springs eternal !!
https://twitter.com/RichardMadan 8 mins ago
Per my last tweet: AU’s Trade Min confirms #TPP talks deadlocked over pharma patents/Biologics – issue still being discussed #cdnpoli
View conversation 35 retweets 4 favorites
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Richard Madan @RichardMadan 13m13 minutes ago
“We’re not going to change” – Australia’s Trade Minister says protecting pharma patents under #TPP a… https://instagram.com/p/8bsJRHgO1x/
No Deal!
TPPA not signed.
How do I know?
As of 11:45 am NZT, there is no announcement of a TPPA press conference.
It is now 1:45 am Monday morning in Istanbul. In 8 hours the G20 Trade Ministers meeting begins in Istanbul. You cannot fly from Atlanta to Istanbul in eight hours, which leads me to conclude that most or all of the trade ministers have now left Atlanta.
They did NOT sign an agreement!
It is just that, it is a form of annexation. For instance, when Austria was annexed some 80 years ago, the troops just moved in and took control. The modern way is to have agreements like ANZUS and TPP and all important decisions will be made by the New Zealand future masters in Wellington and the marionette New Zealand government, irrespectively of political colour, will have to agree. If they don’t, the Washington masters can take them to court in out own country and force them. Get ysed to it, you voted in the Key Club to take control.
Latest from Atlanta seems to be that Australia is still playing hard ball on pharmaceuticals – hence the further delays in the press conference (now delayed until 3pm NZT or later). Seems talks are still deadlocked on this issue, according to Aust Trade Minister.
Richard Madan, CTV correspondent in Atlanta, is worth watching on Twitter as he is tweeting constantly – and has a sense of humour (see my 17.1 above). Here is a link to his Twitter feed.
https://twitter.com/RichardMadan
Snap! Also see 19.3.
He is doing as report here at 8 pm atlanta time … very soon.
Interesting on this news page where the Canadian Liberals are not agreeing to be bound by any Tory signed TPPA after their coming general election !
http://www.ctvnews.ca/
Watch All Key Media Friends Gower Garner Du Plessis Allan Corin Dann Simon Dallow Petrie Street Hosking and Christine to put there spin on it she will be right Mate. The Media tell as the economy when it not. Like the TPPA is right.
That’s probably what Gower & Hosking are more likely to do. The likely thing will be the questions that aren’t asked and the points that aren’t raised.
Yes, their lines have already been written for them.
One which Labour should say that they will be un-signing it as soon as they get into power in 2017.
Draco,
You know that won’t happen.
Wayne,
You know that very well could.
If they said such a stupid thing whatever chance labour had of winning the 2017 election would vanish. Is that what you want?
Most people are against the undermining of their sovereignty.
Neoliberalism is deeply unpopular.
In the spirit of Muldoon Paul most people would not know or care what Neo liberal means or the ins and outs of a trade deal even if they tripped up over one. Don’t confuse a bunch of outraged lunatic left wingers nodding and agreeing as the general consensus of the populace. nz labour learnt that and now also will the uk in a big way
Which explains Nationals election victories
Well, at least you admit that National purposefully undermines our sovereignty.
Actually, I’m pretty sure that it would pretty much guarantee them winning. The majority of people have been seriously hurt by the neo-liberal BS that the governments of the last thirty years have forced upon us.
“The majority of people have been seriously hurt by the neo-liberal BS that the governments of the last thirty years have forced upon us.”
__________________
I recall that you were stating this crap 18 months ago when you were confidently predicting a David Cunliffe victory. When 2023 comes around and National have been in government for 15 years, will you still be chanting this?
1. The Lancet reports on the increase in infectious disease admissions.
2. Coroner’s verdict on infant mortality.
3. Law Society report to the UN re: human rights and the rule of law.
How much money have you made from misery and disease, S Rylands? It takes a very special sort of scum to keep on the way you do.
That is their right if they want. TPP will allow it. NZers could then vote accordingly.
@M. Hooton.
How do you know the TPP will allow it?
See (last sentence): https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/press-releases/2015/october/summary-trans-pacific-partnership
That summary is so general that it is virtually worthless. It only spells out broad principles.
Excellent detailed post by Gordon Campbell is now up on Scoop on the TPP negotiations, and probable reasons for the delays etc. Campbell has obviously got good contacts etc on what has been/is going on re Auto provisions, dairy etc.
http://gordoncampbell.scoop.co.nz/2015/10/05/gordon-campbell-on-the-tpp-countdown-mary-margaret-ohara/
EDIT – latest from Richard Madan, CTV, is that the press conference is now off until ‘sometime tomorrow morning’ Atlanta time; and the talks are continuing.
https://twitter.com/RichardMadan/status/650844101529739265
A thoroughly recommended read, that one.
Key & Groser will have signed it already even if it’s not in the best interests of New Zealand. Key & Groser don’t give a shit about the people of New Zealand, they only care about themselves.
Yup.
If Key & Grosser have already signed it, they will have a tough time explaining why Australia got better Pharmac terms than we did. Even the MSM will be howling about that.
MSM has been bought by US corporate interests.
It will not comment above a certain level.
wont everyone have the same deal? Isnt that the point?
Yes. A bizarre comment by Amakiwi.
And yet we see that the overseas investment threshold is increasing to $200M for all countries, except Australia.
Shows what you know.
can you please explain how Key and Groser personally benefit from a deal that ruins our country?
Have just gone into the Herald to see if there are any updates about the TPPA. I key worded TPPA and the only stuff to come up is a Steve Braunias Secret Diary of Gerry Brownlie dated Oct 3, an earlier entry dated 28 Sept and another entry dated 24 Sept. Lord lover duck is that all they can do. Here we are on the “cusp of something great” and all there is is rugby and the WC games, Prince Harry and a TV personality with a threatening illlness (serious I know but give us a break). The Herald needs seriously to up its game, this rag is now nothing but a trash rag and seriously is insulting to the citizens of this country. Here we are on the verge of selling our soul to the devil and we should be informed on this. I have chucked the Herald a year ago but thought it might give us something on what is happening. I give up.
While I disagree with your view that TPP is “selling our soul to the devil” – I’d call it “greatest diplomatic breakthrough for NZ since Uruguay Round” – I totally agree with you re Herald. Whichever one of us is right, this should be overwhelming the media, with reporters outlining basic facts, and with all sorts of perspectives being put forward and debated.
No, Matthew. The greatest diplomatic breakthrough for NZ since we landed on Gallipoli.
Say this every day!!
Latest from Atlanta is that the press conference has now been set tentatively for 0930 tomorrow morning (Mon) Atlanta time. Think that is 0230am Tuesday NZ time.
https://twitter.com/RichardMadan/status/650872651708297216
I can hear the dead rats being swallowed from here.
Latest TPP News
USTR Schedules TPP Closing Press Conference For 9 A.M. Monday Morning
http://insidetrade.com/
2:51 AM
Monday, 5 October 2015 (EDT)
Current Time in Atlanta, GA, USA
The members of the G20 are Argentina, Australia, Brazil, Canada, China, France, Germany, India, Indonesia, Italy, Japan, Republic of Korea, Mexico, Russia, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, Turkey, the United Kingdom, the United States and the European Union.
So – are the Trade Ministers from Australia, Canada, Japan, Mexico and the USA going to the G20 Trade Ministers’ meeting tomorrow – YES or NO?
Penny Bright
If this does get signed, then we will need mass demonstrations. This TPPA process has kept all information from the MAJOR stakeholders,the general public of each country,
I will not accept this abuse of process, the deception and blatant disregard of those who have been elected to serve us, the citizens, not the corporations.
Andrew Geddis examines the implications of “Investor State Dispute Settlement” procedures, should the TPP become an agreement. For those who say that NZ will be OK under ISDS because we are the good guys, you had better take a look.
http://www.pundit.co.nz/content/of-tpps-isdss-and-the-constitution
“…For one thing, it is misleading to imply that existing ISDS provisions haven’t had any impact on NZ’s laws and policies….”
…”challenges to regulatory action by the Czech Republic and Spain affecting the interests of the providers of renewable energy…”
…” Lone Pine Resources Inc instituted a claim against Canada last year in response to a moratorium imposed by Quebec on hydraulic fracturing (fracking)…”
“…a claim against Canada on the basis of a moratorium imposed by Ontario on offshore wind farms. …”
“…The Swedish company, Vattenfall, is suing Germany under the Energy Charter Treaty over Germany’s decision to phase out nuclear energy power plants.””
What has long intrigued me – and unlike Andrew Geddis I’ll claim zero expertise in this area – is that this ISDS process appears to enormously privilege foreign investors over domestic ones.
Doctors Without Borders (aka Medecins Sans Frontieres) have had a long running campaign against the TPP.
Then again, they’re obviously no longer on the U.S. Christmas card list so probably won’t have had much influence.
Looks like a done deal, the only real hope now is that it’ll be scuppered in the US due to election year posturing:
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/oct/05/trans-pacific-partnership-deal-reached-pacific-countries-international-trade
Interesting that the biotech lobbyists expect to see the full text while it is denied to the general public. But if they withhold their campaign contributions (not to say; bribes), then a republican dominated congress is less likely to vote for something that makes a democratic president look good.
Plus there’s the upcoming Canadian election; which may throw a spanner in the works if they kick Harper to the curb.
Latest TPP News
U.S. Secures Tariff Phaseouts Of 25 Years For Japanese Autos, 30 For Trucks
ATLANTA — Under the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) deal announced on Monday (Oct. 5), the United States will eliminate its 25 percent tariff on trucks after 30 years, and get rid of the 2.5 percent tariff on automobiles after 25 years.
TPP Countries Declare Deal, As Lawmakers And Industry Express Caution
The United States and 11 other Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) countries announced Monday (Oct. 5) they have resolved all outstanding issues in their talks but that work to finalize the text of the deal is still continuing, as key U.S. lawmakers reacted with caution or even outright disappointment at the compromises U.S. negotiators have made.
More News:
Tentative U.S.-Vietnam ‘Consistency Plan’ Links Tariff Benefits To Labor Compliance
U.S., Australia Float Joint Biologics Text To Other TPP Countries For Vetting
U.S. Seeking Enforceable Labor Consistency Plans With Select TPP Nations
Peru Pursues TPP As Route To Secure Apparel Cumulation With Colombia
Documents and Reactions:
TPP Governments Announce Final TPP Deal Reached; Release Statements, Fact Sheets
TPP Countries Pledge To Strengthen Cooperation On Exchange Rate Issues ‘In Appropriate Fora’
Hatch Says TPP Deal Appears To Fall ‘Woefully Short’ Of Expectations; Other Members Of Congress Offer Ranging Assessments
Stay tuned for continuing coverage … Complete TPP News
http://insidetrade.com/
U.S. Seeking Enforceable Labor Consistency Plans With Select TPP Nations
TPP Countries Pledge To Strengthen Cooperation On Exchange Rate Issues ‘In Appropriate Fora’
Does this mean that the US will niow dictate our labour laws and exchanges rates?
RedNaronCV This paper should answer your question.
“The Trans-Pacific Partnership:
Four Countries That Don’t Comply With U.S. Trade Law”
http://www.aflcio.org/content/download/150491/3811471/file/TPPreport-NO+BUG.pdf
@RedBaronCV Also this
http://greatermalaysia.com/2015/07/12/malaysia-tier-2-no-improvement/
Apparently congress wouldn’t do trade deal with tier 3 human trafficking nations, so USA upgraded Malaysia to tier 2 to make them eligible for TPP, despite no evidence of any improvement. SHAMEFUL
From US perpective
President Obama will have to convince his own party to support the deal, after most congressional Democrats opposed handing him fast-track authority on trade. The power — ultimately granted to Obama, in large part thanks to GOP backing of the deal — means Congress won’t have a chance to amend the deal before voting on it.
Republicans, meanwhile, warned during the talks that they would oppose the TPP if the Obama administration came back with language that targets certain sectors of the U.S. economy.
The deal will arrive on Capitol Hill for a vote early next year, a few months after a leadership shake-up in the GOP-controlled House, which could further complicate the deal’s passage.
Senate Finance Committee Chairman Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) sent up a warning flare saying from what he has learned, the TPP deal “falls woefully short” of what can pass Congress.
“Over the next several days and months, I will carefully examine the agreement to determine whether our trade negotiators have diligently followed the law so that this trade agreement meets Congress’s criteria and increases opportunity for American businesses and workers,” Hatch said in a statement.
“The Trans-Pacific Partnership is a once in a lifetime opportunity and the United States should not settle for a mediocre deal that fails to set high-standard trade rules in the Asia-Pacific region for years to come.”
http://thehill.com/policy/finance/255889-negotiators-reach-major-trade-deal