Tuwhera mike 27/07/2014

Written By: - Date published: 7:30 am, July 27th, 2014 - 176 comments
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176 comments on “Tuwhera mike 27/07/2014 ”

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  1. Tracey 1
    27 July 2014 at 8:03 am

    Good morning and wishing you all a lovely day for those who do not have to work.

  2. phillip ure 2
    27 July 2014 at 8:10 am

    the w.t.f!/eyebrow-lifter for me this morn is that the auckland city council owes over $7 billion..

    .and get this..!

    ..the interest they pay on this debt..

    ..is one million dollars…

    ..each and every day..

    ..(oh..!..and they are currently spending $53 million of ratepayers’-money moving into new digs..

    ..but i guess they wd just shrug their shoulders –

    • and say..’meh..!..it’s only 53 days interest on the debt’..)

    ..and how many p.r.-trouts does the council currently employ..?

    ..it’s in triple figures..over 100..

    ..w.t.f. do they do all day..?..eh..?..

  3. Saarbo 3
    27 July 2014 at 8:43 am

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11299685

    A really interesting article from Bernard Hickey calculating the capital gain on NZ Houses and the justification for a Land tax:

    “The scale of this accidental benefit to whomever was owning property before this shift is enormous. The value of New Zealand’s houses rose from $100 billion in 1987 to $725b this year.

    Meanwhile, mortgage debt rose only from less than $20b to $192b, which means the equity in this property has risen from $80b to $533b. This $453b windfall was possible only because of a fall in interest rates and this is the story of asset prices around the world over the past 30 years”

    I guess what Hickey is saying here is it is probably too late to implement a Capital Gains Tax and the only way we can get things back into balance is to implement a Land tax. Interesting. Of course National have no interest in helping to get things back in balance and the beneficiaries of this huge wealth creation are the current batch of National supporters.

    • Chooky 3.1
      27 July 2014 at 8:54 am

      land tax could mean there is no land left because landowners will be forced to subdivide to pay the tax…much better to put a tax on foreign owned multiple rental properties …forcing sales/crushing overseas speculative demand and releasing housing to New Zealanders imo

      …also i am in favour of Capital Gains Tax and NOT too late!… imo

      • Bearded Git 3.1.1
        27 July 2014 at 9:04 am

        The main reason for a CGT is to push future investment into productive areas rather than housing. Raising tax from it is secondary though useful.

        • silverbullet 3.1.1.1
          27 July 2014 at 9:19 am

          CGT doesn’t seem to stop property bubbles though as Australia demonstrates.

          • Clemgeopin 3.1.1.1.1
            27 July 2014 at 10:58 am

            Even if that were to be absolutely true for NZ too, at least the CGT will increase government revenue over time which is a good outcome anyway.

          • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1.1.2
            27 July 2014 at 11:11 am

            That’s possibly because the tax is far too low. Same as the 15% that Labour are proposing is far too low. It needs to be equal with the progressive tax scale – in fact, it should just be the progressive tax scale.

            • Saarbo 3.1.1.1.2.1
              27 July 2014 at 12:14 pm

              Yep, agree Draco. The reason it doesn’t work in Aus is because it is set too low, still provides a tax advantage to CG’s.

            • silverbullet 3.1.1.1.2.2
              27 July 2014 at 9:07 pm

              You say possibly, so you don;t know, so is it really wise to go ahead and experiment what with “unintended consequences”. We don’t want to go rip shit and bust with this, just a steady process of rebalancing the economy.

              • Colonial Viper …
                27 July 2014 at 9:51 pm

                We don’t want to go rip shit and bust with this, just a steady process of rebalancing the economy.

                That’s not how an economy works. Further, there are families and children out there who do not have the luxury of waiting for things (somehow, hopefully) correcting themselves over a 5-10 year time frame.

                And affordable oil goes away within the next 20 years. There is going to be some very ‘non-steady’ things happening to the economy over that time frame and we have to get robust and resilient ahead of that curve.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                27 July 2014 at 10:10 pm

                Well put it this way. Check the graph on this page that shows the US bubble starting in 2004. And then consider that the US dropped their CGT in 2003.

                Correlation isn’t causation but we do have to question just how much effect it had on the bubble that burst in 2007/8.

              • disturbed …
                27 July 2014 at 10:55 pm

                What economy?
                Nationals “rock star economy? that’s bull dust.

                Our Crown debt as per GDP has gone from 5% to 26% in just five years!
                NZ Treasury figures.
                “net government debt as a % of GDP has risen from 5.5% in 2008 to 26.3% in 2013” (- figures from NZ Treasury Dept)

            • silverbullet 3.1.1.1.2.3
              27 July 2014 at 9:08 pm

              I like the idea of limiting how many houses you can own or flip. That would kill it fast.

              • Colonial Viper …
                27 July 2014 at 9:53 pm

                That’s one stake, the other is to massively constrain mortgage lending.

        • Skinny 3.1.1.2
          27 July 2014 at 10:19 am

          John Key’s solution was to encourage investment away from property into the sharemarket. He even promoted Kiwi Mums & Dads to invest in power assets by kindly listing them on the sharemarket for them to buy.

          I guess blood in thicker than water he has gone shared those power shares with his American cousins;

          http://i.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/10315411/Asset-sale-screwed-NZ-buyers

        • mikesh 3.1.1.3
          27 July 2014 at 4:20 pm

          “The main reason for a CGT is to push future investment into productive areas rather than housing.”

          So, presumably, any capital gains arising from “productive investment” would not be taxed.

      • mikesh 3.1.2
        27 July 2014 at 4:11 pm

        “land tax could mean there is no land left because landowners will be forced to subdivide to pay the tax…”

        Not necessarily. A land tax would probably be offset by a reduction in income tax.

    • silverbullet 3.2
      27 July 2014 at 9:16 am

      Its a generational gap too, with the Baby Boomers picking up the windfall of this asset class bubble.

      • karol 3.2.1
        27 July 2014 at 9:26 am

        Not all of us boomers. A high proportion don’t own property. And the children of many boomers, especially middle class boomers, own property, with or without the help of their boomer parents.

        • silverbullet 3.2.1.1
          27 July 2014 at 10:08 am

          It was a general statement, obviously not every last baby boomer is a rich property speculator and not every x or y gen is living under a bridge.

          However it is the Baby Boomers who are enjoying the LIONS SHARE of the housing price bubble.

          Interesting to see stories of individuals, kids barely out of their teens who save and scrimp and invest in property outside Auckland, buying properties at 70000.

    • karol 3.3
      27 July 2014 at 9:24 am

      And yet, many property owners complaint about paying council rates (effectively a land tax, at least in part?) – and Councils pander to them by cutting services, etc.

      • silverbullet 3.3.1
        27 July 2014 at 10:13 am

        Auckland property owners complain about year on year rates rises at compounding percentages while council blows it on the likes of $50 million renovations for their useless backsides to plonk down somewhere comfy.

        Meanwhile $1 million a day of rate payers money goes to debt servicing.

        • karol 3.3.1.1
          27 July 2014 at 11:25 am

          It’s not the size of the rates that is the problem – it’s how the council allocates it. Brown has proposed cuts to various kinds of services to keep rates low.

          The mis-spending points to the need for a total overhaul of the Auckland Council structure – and that undemocratic structure is Rodney Hide & Key’s doing.

          • alwyn 3.3.1.1.1
            27 July 2014 at 3:12 pm

            “It’s not the size of the rates that is the problem” Karol says.
            There speaks someone who doesn’t own a house, and doesn’t really notice the rates going up.
            If you are retired and on a fixed, or declining income, rates that are very high certainly are a problem, particularly if they increase at a rate that exceeds the rate of inflation are most definitely a problem. It is all very well to say that the value of your house is, theoretically, rising but you can’t eat the spare bedroom.

            • Draco T Bastard 3.3.1.1.1.1
              27 July 2014 at 3:21 pm

              Two things:

              1. My rent is double the rates on the house and
              2. That spare bedroom can be rented out and the rent will more than cover the rates
              • Foreign Waka …
                27 July 2014 at 4:26 pm

                You are all pandering to the jealous nature of true communist propaganda. Being left hopefully does not mean that I have to live in a commune.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  27 July 2014 at 5:23 pm

                  You are all pandering to the jealous nature of true communist propaganda.

                  Um, what?

                  Being left hopefully does not mean that I have to live in a commune.

                  NFI where you got that from what I said.

            • karol 3.3.1.1.1.2
              27 July 2014 at 3:36 pm

              The costs of rents do go up. The plus of renting is it’s easier to move tom where rents are more affordable – subject to availability.

              The costs of everything are the reason why many people downsize their homes as they get older, and/or move away from cities.

              But, in general, it’s the property speculators that are pushing up the costs of most things, one way or another.

            • Half Crown 3.3.1.1.1.3
              27 July 2014 at 6:59 pm

              ” There speaks someone who doesn’t own a house, and doesn’t really notice the rates going”

              Yes she does. I cannot see her landlord not passing on ANY increases be it rates or other things.

        • Draco T Bastard 3.3.1.2
          27 July 2014 at 11:26 am

          And yet most people won’t realise that the increase in rates is from the expanding sprawl of our city and not from council spending it on useless things.

          I definitely recall the central Aucklanders complaining about the council not mowing the verge anymore.

      • mikesh 3.3.2
        27 July 2014 at 4:26 pm

        “And yet, many property owners complaint about paying council rates (effectively a land tax, at least in part?) – and Councils pander to them by cutting services, etc.”

        Rates are not really a land tax since they are based on a local authority’s actual expenditure.
        Rates simply apportion that expenditure in proportion to property values.

  4. Paul 4
    27 July 2014 at 8:54 am

    Another story highlighting how unequal NZ has become.
    That the Herald chooses to frame this news about the surge in luxury cars as evidence of our strong economy says so much who owns the media.
    The trickle down theory has been proved to be false for a long time Messrs Roughan and Murphy.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=11299723

  5. Skinny 5
    27 July 2014 at 9:53 am

    Watching Minister of ‘Above the Law’ Gerry Brownlee on Q&A this morning. Talking up the next big spend up on their pet roading project the Puhio to Warkworth Highway. I find it incredible when you consider further up SH1 after recent adverse weather the main rd was closed in 2 separate places for 5 days each. Traffic was diverted on to basically goat tracks. How about the black spot towards Te Hana where 2 large truck & trailer units that got blown over on their sides. Brownlee announces emergency funding (as you would expect) for road damage repairs, however the level playing field wasn’t extended to Rail. The rail line is closed due to a major slip over the line. What is Kiwirail expected to fund the repair out of their budget, which is band aid funding on the Northland line already. Does the new road extension spell the end of the line for the Northland rail network.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/regional/250676/highway-'lacks-economic-analysis‘

    • silverbullet 5.1
      27 July 2014 at 10:53 am

      What is needed is for ALL of SH1 to be upgraded to a dual carriage way from Kaitia to Invercargill AND laterals to provincial centers like New Plymouth and Napier. The wash outs cutting off Northland illustrates what a 3rd World transport system NZ suffers from.

      That infrastructure spending would sure stimulate the economy!

    • Draco T Bastard 5.2
      27 July 2014 at 11:30 am

      Does the new road extension spell the end of the line for the Northland rail network.

      I’m sure that National hope so because then their mates in the roading lobby can get even more subsidies from society.

  6. cricklewood 6
    27 July 2014 at 10:22 am

    Why does labour have candidate hoardings up in Epsom? Of any electorate surely party vote only signs…

    • silverbullet 6.1
      27 July 2014 at 10:32 am

      Because they are abandoning any hope in Cunliffe and its everyone for themselves now – their 6 figure incomes are on the line here.

      • Te Reo Putake 6.1.1
        27 July 2014 at 10:46 am

        Bullshit. We’re standing candidates in every electorate as we always do. If you want to buy into tory spin, that’s a shame, but you’ll look a lot less silly if you do some homework first. Michael Wood, the NZLP candidate in Epsom, isn’t an MP, so his income doesn’t enter into it.

        • cricklewood 6.1.1.1
          27 July 2014 at 11:09 am

          I fully support standing in each and every electorate it’s an important way to garner party vote, in Epsom in particular I would have thought it best to run a party vote campaign and for the electorate hoardings to represent this. Tactically speaking the best possible outcome for the left block would be for Goldsmith to win Epsom…

        • silverbullet 6.1.1.2
          27 July 2014 at 11:20 am

          Yeah but he wants to be an MP after the election I presume, so the 150k is still on the line isn’t it?

          You are missing the point, people are observing the trend that Labour electoral MPs are not sticking pics of Cunliffe or Party Vote messages forward and center on their billboards.

          • Te Reo Putake 6.1.1.2.1
            27 July 2014 at 11:28 am

            Bullshit. Each electorate gets a mix of hoardings and all of them go up. That’s the actual ‘trend’.

            • bad12 6.1.1.2.1.1
              27 July 2014 at 11:52 am

              Disappointing to me, this mornings return journey from the fruit and veg market, come through ‘the Gap’ to be greeted, in a ‘safe’ :Labour electorate by a billboard featuring Slippery the Prime Minister,

              Further into the electorate the same smug smirk of the used car salesman greeted me again,

              Labour/Green/NZFirst billboards non-existent, (although the Green Party were well set up at the wharf market this week)…

    • Skinny 6.2
      27 July 2014 at 10:55 am

      The question should be why does Labour have candidate hoardings up outside of marginal seats?

      Guess which party learned from Labour’s mistake of not pushing ‘the party vote’ at the last general election, the clue is obviously not the Greens as they lead the way.

      Yes that is right Labour Mr Snake Oil Joyce has instructed their candidates to concentrate on the party vote. Meanwhile over at camp Labour the candidates are given a free reign to self promote themselves ahead of the party. Experienced campaigners should know that many well intended voters get confused when they go in the ballot box. Here is what happens;

      So ok I will vote for the Labour candidate, I like them, and after all they are ‘asking for the candidate vote’ jolly good. Hmm now I get another vote, now let me see… oh yes that lovely smiling Mr Key wants my party vote… okie dokie he is the Prime Minister after all…tick!

      • Pasupial 6.2.1
        27 July 2014 at 11:55 am

        Skinny

        Or Labour could have taken the recent poll collapse to heart (I don’t trust those touted by the MSM, but they will have internal polls with more rigorous methodology), and decided to go for an overhang; by having more Electorate MPs than party votes. That’d mean they are trusting the Greens, NZF, and IMPs to vacuum up the centre/ left party vote. This’d take more courage and nous than I’ve come to expect from them, but perhaps I’ve been influenced by the incessant media barrage of negativity.

        Throwing a guesstimate into the ECcalculator, lets suppose the election results are something like:

        NP – 40% Party Vote 35 Electorate Seats
        LP – 25% PV 33 ES
        GP – 16%
        ZF – 8%
        IM – 6% PV 1ES
        MP – 1% PV 1ES
        CP – 2%
        UF – 1%
        AP – 1%

        This’d give Labour a 27% proportion of a 122 seat parliament off a 25% Party Vote, by comparison; National would only have 41% off 40% PV. With these numbers; National, Maori & NZF would have just 61 seats (50%) and it would take Mallard doing a Tapsell to let them form a government. By contast, a coalition of; Labour, Greens & NZF (probably with IMPs providing C&S on crossbenches as insurance against ABC defections) would have 63 out of 122 seats (51.7%).

        http://www.elections.org.nz/voting-system/mmp-voting-system/mmp-seat-allocation-calculator

        Of course, this is all conjectural and it’d only take the win or loss of a few electorate seats, or a few points of Party Vote to completely change the change the election result (eg the right minor parties getting back in rather than having their votes redistributed).

        Don’t let anyone tell you that this election is a foregone conclusion!

      • Clemgeopin 6.2.2
        27 July 2014 at 11:59 am

        @Skinny:

        Here is a strategy for the progressive voters.

        This is what I would do in Epsom:
        I want to kick this present government out to be replaced by a progressive Labour led government. So, first party vote Labour as that is MY preferred progressive party and I want the moderate Labour to be in charge of the government. Then, to prevent a potential ACT partner for National, I give electorate vote to Goldsmith or if polls indicate that Woods is leading (unlikely there), then Woods.

        This is what I would do in Ohariu:
        I want to kick this present government out to be replaced by a progressive Labour led government. So, first party vote Labour as that is MY preferred progressive party. Then, to prevent a potential Hair-do partner for National, I give electorate vote to any of the non hairdo leading candidates including National (unlikely there, more likely Labour).

        This is what I would do in Te Tai Tokerau and Waiariki,
        I want to kick this present government out to be replaced by a progressive Labour led government. So, first party vote Labour as that is MY preferred progressive party. Then, to ensure another progressive party, Internet-Mana, in parliament, electorate vote Hone and Sykes.

        This is what I would do in East Coast Bays:
        I want to kick this present government out to be replaced by a progressive Labour led government. So, first party vote Labour as that is MY preferred progressive party. Then, to prevent a potential balmy partner for National, I give electorate vote to any of the leading candidates, except National or the Cons. That is likely to be Labour. However, if the polls are indicating that Cons are leading in electorate vote, then switch to National for electorate vote.

        Skinny, what do you think about such a strategy for the progressive voters?

        • karol 6.2.2.1
          27 July 2014 at 12:10 pm

          In all cases I’d give my party vote to Greens, to ensure a more left-leaning government.

          • Pasupial 6.2.2.1.1
            27 July 2014 at 12:42 pm

            karol

            The Greens are your “preferred progressive party”, as Labour is for Clemgeopin, and the IMP alliance for myself. I think Clem’s point was that we should each give our party vote as we prefer, but vote tactically as regards electorate candidates so as to deny National coalition partners.

            It seems a reasonable strategy to me, but does presuppose that Labour wants his Party vote.

            • Clemgeopin 6.2.2.1.1.1
              27 July 2014 at 1:34 pm

              Yes, you are correct. I was writing about MYSELF and MY personal preference.

          • Clemgeopin 6.2.2.1.2
            27 July 2014 at 1:50 pm

            Ok then! Whateva!

            P.S :
            From history and experience, far left leaning tall coconut trees don’t last in the long run for too long in real life unfortunately. They need to be firmly taken care of and centred very well in their early years.

            • karol 6.2.2.1.2.1
              27 July 2014 at 2:00 pm

              Are you saying the Greens are “far left”?

              The Greens have been around for quite a while now.

              • Clemgeopin …
                27 July 2014 at 4:43 pm

                In some issues they are and that is what scares many people. (not me)

                Being far left, or far right for that matter, will only appeal to a minor group of voters and will not be sustainable for too long in practical pragmatic political terms.

                It is only centre or slightly centre-left or slightly centre-right parties that can get voted in well, survive and HOLD power for longer periods in a free modern democracy. The far left leaning or the far right leaning saplings and plants need to be well fastened to the strong centrist tree for them to survive, grow healthy and bear good fruit.

                That is why extreme urgent changes are a death knell for a government irrespective of being made with good intentions. People vote with their stomachs, back pockets and perceptions and not just with their head and heart. Slow and steady tolerable changes are what people support, unless it is done through the barrel of a gun, fear and control. Even that has failed both in communist and dictatorial systems as witnessed in our own recent contemporary history.

                For that reason, I personally would like Labour to be the main credible major part of the next slightly cenre left coalition government.

                • karol …
                  27 July 2014 at 4:46 pm

                  You seem to be judging the “leftness” of the Greens (and Labour) from the position of the current “centre ground”, which actually has moved to the right in the last couple of decades, with Labour being not very left at all.

                  This shift has come about because of the tendencies of the main parties to follow your prescription of appealing to “centrist” voters.

                  Actually, The Greens are not very far left at all – that’s just how the right and many in the MSM try to undermine them.

                  I’m more interested in the principles, values and policies of parties, and whether they are working for a fair society for all.

                  The managerialist approach is within the neoliberal frame, and does not help the Left at all.

        • Skinny 6.2.2.2
          27 July 2014 at 2:28 pm

          Pretty much spot on there Clem, however Hone may have trouble holding his seat. Maori up there weren’t pleased with the Internet hook up. You have to remember many of the voters are related to both Kelvin & Hone and Davis has been more visible on the ground locally than Hone. Some say HH has become too big for his boots and won’t be getting their vote this time, that is a fact I’ve been told this to my face by his relatives. Dotcom is off putting because the poor up there know they share little in common with the German neo liberal.

          Labour won’t be publicly messaging the need to remove Flavell by vote splitting. But left activists within the local networks should be whispering the candidate vote blessing for Sykes. There is something strange intertribal where the EBOP may hold a grudge against her family?

          I also know the Internet Party should shut Dotcom up with some of his arse blowing ( German’s are renowned for ‘we are the best’ type crap) even IP candidates are unhappy about it. All I’ve seen was Dotblob righteously saying to the media David Cunliffe won’t have a choice but to include the M/I party in a left government. I would be shutting him up immediately. If Labour & the Greens ruled them out I’d say both Mana and Inernet party’s are wiped out and their party votes will drop sharply. Watch this space on that, I know the Green MP’s are spewing about the IP formation. One called me the other day the mere mention of the Internet party got a hissing reaction.

          • marty mars 6.2.2.2.1
            27 July 2014 at 4:21 pm

            “some say” – wishful thinking by you I’d say, even if you say you have the ‘facts’ and ‘you know’

            the rest of your ‘analysis’ – summed up by your ‘dotblob’ insult shows that you are nasty.

            • Skinny 6.2.2.2.1.1
              27 July 2014 at 6:07 pm

              i would say some of the plastic socialists need to be reminded that had the con artist German not been ‘illegally’ busted he would be happy enough donating large chucks of money to NACT’s election campaign. Bradford stance was honourable and deserves much admiration for doing so.

              I don’t blame the Greens being annoyed with the IP formation, more so with their party leader LH for jumping ship this close the the general election.

              My advice to the Internet party is don’t push the termination button by allowing the party sponsor to dictate terms, by all means talk it up amongst the internal leadership but reign in Kim. Plenty of Kiwi voters are clearly put off by the thought of the M/I party alliance being in a position to be in Govt. If not it wouldn’t take a lot of effort to get Labour, The Greens and NZF to rule out, that is if that’s not what their already thinking.

              • marty mars …
                27 July 2014 at 6:50 pm

                Yep I’m sure they will rule it out right up to when they need them and they come crawling and fawning to get the support – politicians eh, gotta love them.

                And sure the Greens may be upset by the formation and initial successful cut-through that the IP has had and also the whole IMP grouping but I wouldn’t imagine so, after all they, like labour and the gnats, are after the ‘middle’ albeit the slightly green tinted slightly left middle.

                I do agree that what KDC does and says is KDC’s business and I’m happy for that ringfence to be there.

                • Skinny …
                  27 July 2014 at 7:25 pm

                  Good we agree on politicians. I have little time personally for many of them, interactions are superficial and never sure what other balls they are juggling or scheming. I help out with any of them on the Left for the cause. Keep them on their toes by not pigeon holing to one party, I’ve learnt that by experience. Play them off against each other for the best result you can get on an issue or cause. When you walk amongst the left party’s you see just how bitchy politics is.

                  Take em for what you can get, they surely will reciprocate on that one.

          • bad12 6.2.2.2.2
            27 July 2014 at 4:45 pm

            Skinny, this comment, pretty much a Ware Whare 99 cent bucket of Tutae from start to finish,

            Just a gush of innuendo and supposed rumor without the grace of a glimmer of fact, you claim intimate knowledge of Te Tai Tokerau, Waiariki, InternetMana Party candidates, Hone’s family,and, then really drip shit on yourself claiming that ”a Green MP phoned you up the other day”

            i will say that the whole comment absolutely trumps both Jenny and Phillips recent swipes taken at the Labour Party but without a hint of a fact nor a narrative which explains such supposed links to this diversity of people it simply looks like the rant of a raver who’s ego has been effected in a steroidal context,

            i should imagine that the Green Party is worried to a certain extent by the InternetMana Alliance, in part because of the unknown X factor this brings into the September election, along with that there is a growing chance that the soft red edge part of the Green Party vote might decamp the Party for InternetMana,

            That said, it is not for the Green Party to spit tacks if this bleeding of support occurs, the Green Party would need to look in on itself, its policies, and, why there is a perception being expressed by admittedly a few that the Party has taken a leap for the center recently,

            From what i seen of the Auckland leg of the InternetMana roadshow DotCom is an asset in this context of campaigning and i personally believe that InternetMana should use Him to provide a humorous context to its TV advertising,

            Far from switching off the troops in Auckland the ‘floor’ of the meeting erupted with applause when DotCom described ‘the raid’ on the Mansion where the plods stripped Him of everything and it was only the goodwill of Kiwis that kept Him on His feet and His family with food on the table,

            Feel free tho to name this mystery candidate that wishes the founder of the Internet wing of the InternetMana Alliance would ”just shut up” so we can justly reward Him/Her for the effort so far

            • marty mars 6.2.2.2.2.1
              27 July 2014 at 6:06 pm

              plus 1 bad – skinny likes to ‘big note it’ – give the insider vibe – be credible (cough) – sadly though it is difficult to be an ‘insider’ everywhere like skinny says s/he is. Dirty tricks are everywhere – right/left and centre – must be the fucken treasury benches up for grabs eh.

    • mikesh 6.3
      27 July 2014 at 4:43 pm

      Virginia Andrerson’s hoardings in Ohariu are telling us to vote for her AND to party vote Labour. But if there’s one seat Labour really has to win it’s Ohariu.

      • Clemgeopin 6.3.1
        27 July 2014 at 4:49 pm

        Party vote Labour is the correct call.

        As far as the electorate vote, need to strategically and smartly vote to defeat United hair-do front to help kick this present govt out.

        • Clemgeopin 6.3.1.1
          27 July 2014 at 4:57 pm

          [Can’t edit error]

          As I said earlier,
          ‘This is what I would do in Ohariu:
          I want to kick this present government out to be replaced by a progressive Labour led government. So, first party vote Labour as that is MY preferred progressive party. {for other progressives, it may be Greens or IMP) Then, to prevent a potential Hair-do partner for National, I would give electorate vote to any of the non hairdo leading candidates including National (unlikely there, more likely Labour’s Virginia Andrerson if all Non-Nat, Non-Hairdo voters are unitedly smart enough) ‘

  7. silverbullet 7
    27 July 2014 at 10:25 am

    Ebola has reached Lagos population circa 20 000 000, a government worker flying home brought it back with him – he puked all over the plane too. He is dead now.

    Another case in Free Town Sierra Leone, she was quarantined but her family gate crashed the hospital and she has gone AWOL.

    I imagine in an overcrowded 3rd world hell hole like Lagos that Ebola will think it is in heaven.

    • Colonial Viper 7.1
      27 July 2014 at 11:57 am

      This is a very big problem and it needs to be on our radar. This particular outbreak of Ebola has been going on for months and has become far more widespread than other earlier ones. The medical chief responsible for co-ordinating the containment of the disease has also recently been infected.

      • silverbullet 7.1.1
        27 July 2014 at 12:25 pm

        And instead of isolated in remote jungle regions, now with more hosts spread across different environments is there more chance of Ebola mutating into something worse eg air borne?

        • Colonial Viper 7.1.1.1
          27 July 2014 at 12:33 pm

          All I can say is that the transmission of this disease in a dense urban setting has not really been observed in real life previously and could generate quite unwelcome surprises.

          The WHO etc all have computer modelling using presumed infectivity rates etc and I suggest that those models are not saying anything nice about what might happen from this point on if control was not reasserted.

          Although the very idea idea that control can be reasserted at this point might itself just be a conceit.

    • bad12 7.2
      27 July 2014 at 12:15 pm

      Indeed, the Germans are so worried about Ebola that they have ‘activated’ an action plan designed for the day Ebola escapes Africa,

      Even those at the heart of the fight to contain the disease are not immune despite having all the gears to isolate themselves while treating the victims,

      http://www.dw.de/ebola-out-of-control-in-west-africa-17807222

      • silverbullet 7.2.1
        27 July 2014 at 12:29 pm

        Top Lagos International Destinations

        Lagos to Chicago (LOS – ORD)
        Lagos to London (LOS – LHR)
        Lagos to New York (LOS – JFK)
        Lagos to Denver (LOS – DEN)
        Lagos to Paris (LOS – CDG)
        Lagos to Atlanta (LOS – ATL)
        Lagos to San Francisco (LOS – SFO)
        Lagos to Miami (LOS – MIA)
        Lagos to Los Angeles (LOS – LAX)
        Lagos to Amsterdam (LOS – AMS)

        • Colonial Viper 7.2.1.1
          27 July 2014 at 12:39 pm

          bad12 – good spotting on the Ebola containment plan that Germany has activated.
          sb – interesting to see the prominence of US travel there. Nigeria-US trade (oil?) must be booming. The statistics I see show that Lagos international airport has had massive growth in the last few years. I think it is doing well over 200K passengers a week at the moment.

          • silverbullet 7.2.1.1.1
            27 July 2014 at 12:48 pm

            Yeah, Chicago is a big energy trading center (Nadex and US Futures exchanges) so probably why they are top of the list.

            • bad12 7.2.1.1.1.1
              27 July 2014 at 1:29 pm

              Here’s a link, what i call a bit of a ‘soothie’, which explains Ebola:

              http://www.new-medical.net/…/ebola-research-an-interview-with-professor-easton-university-of-warwick-aspx

              Whether or not Ebola is capable of airborne transmission i suppose is a matter of debate, the transmission of bodily fluids from an infected person is said to be the means of travel for the Ebola Virus and whether or not this means ‘all’ bodily fluids is unclear,

              IE: can the sneeze of an infected person, as in the flu virus, pass the Ebola Virus from one human to another,

              Something also read this morning suggests that Ebola was passed from infected pigs in one pen onto monkeys in another without any possible direct contact between either and it may be just the speed at which the disease kills its victims that has so far not provided solid evidence of its spread being capable in the ‘airborne’ sense that ‘a flu virus’ is said to be airborne,

              Looking for a magic bullet pharmaceutical solution for Ebola is as problematic as it is/was with regards to HIV and Cancers, the cure is so powerful that along with the virus the host, in this case us, do not survive,

              A point of interest in this morning’s ‘speed’ through the literature was a hint that blood transfusions from those who have been infected and survived were used on a cohort of other’s also infected most of whom went on to survive…

              • Clemgeopin …
                27 July 2014 at 9:50 pm

                @ bad 12
                Your link leads to Burkina Faso or somewhere with Arabic, Aramaic or Mongolian script!
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                • Zorr …
                  27 July 2014 at 11:43 pm

                  What’s the world coming to when someone can’t easily recognize katakana/hirigana/kanji

                  • Clemgeopin …
                    28 July 2014 at 12:14 am

                    You seem to be confused?
                    No problemo! Here read this:

                    It’s hard to explain but i’ll try my best..
                    yes, we use katakana for foreign origin words. and ice cream is アイスクリーム. there is kanji for ice cream (“氷菓子”), but this is not so common. we always use アイスクリーム.
                    and we usually use both of kanji and katakana for cat; neko. ネコ and 猫. in this case, kanji looks a bit more formal than katakana. but you can use both of them in normal sentences. but it’s rare to use hiragana for neko like ねこ. we use ねこ when we want to give something soft and informal impression for readers. but normally we don’t use it.

                    how can writing a word in katakana instead of kanji or vice versa changes the meaning of the word?
                    yes. if you do this in normal sentences, it looks weird. in novels,manga, poetry and so on, sometimes writers do this to add some special meaning for words.

                    hope my answer helps you…

  8. millsy 8
    27 July 2014 at 10:36 am

    “The rail is closed due to a major slip over the line.”

    KR will probably use that as an excuse to close the line. Sure, they will say that it is ‘mothballed’, but the reality is that as the years go on, the line will deteroriate to such as state to which it will be difficult/impossible to repoen.

    The rail network has shrunken by a horrendous amount since National came to office, though they are doing it with ‘benign neglect’ rather than overtly running it down,.

  9. anker 9
    27 July 2014 at 10:41 am

    http://www.change.org/en-CA/petitions/television-new-zealand-calling-to-have-mike-hosking-dropped-from-moderatingthe-political-debates#share

    Hi everyone,
    I still think it is worth getting as many signatures for this petition as possible. I know Cunliffe has now said he will debate Key with Hoskings as moderator, but I believe its important to show TVNZ that many people are unhappy about this. That bias doesn’t pass unnoticed and it is not just Labour who are pissed off about this. At last look we were into the 4000’s. If you haven’t signed already, please do and pass around.

    • Treetop 9.1
      27 July 2014 at 4:57 pm

      I’d like to see Dotcom do the moderating, bugger, it might be deemed as being biased.

  10. Pasupial 10
    27 July 2014 at 11:08 am

    This may have bearing on the selection of September 20th as Election date:

    … In the first significant event for the people of Otago and Southland after the declaration of war on August 4, 1914, 1700 troops left Dunedin Railway Station on September 22 on their way to Port Chalmers to board a troop ship bound for Europe… More than a year of intense planning will come to fruition when the centenary of Embarkation Day is commemorated on September 28 with a series of events… An embarkation commemoration service will be held at St Paul’s Cathedral on September 21.

    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/310601/parade-marks-departure-soldiers

    I’m not a war history buff, so don’t know what the embarkation dates were for other provinces, but don’t imagine that Dunedin was the first. This means there will probably be parades and centenary celebrations whipping up patriotic fervor in the weeks preceding the election, which is likely to favour the incumbent government.

    And if things go really bad for the tories in the debates (and their internal polling), they can always declare war on somewhere!

  11. Paul 11
    27 July 2014 at 12:10 pm

    Perfect comment about Rachel Glucina, the Herald and NZ’s owned media.
    http://neetflux.tumblr.com/post/92905710672

    And this about Hosking
    http://neetflux.tumblr.com/post/92706152702

  12. JK 12
    27 July 2014 at 12:30 pm

    Wow ….. yet another Nat MP hits the dust – the slippery First VX. This is from a media release put out by Grant Robertson :

    “Today’s news of another National MP in trouble for the use of expenses adds another depressing name to Team Key’s roll call of shame, Labour MP Grant Robertson said.

    “It seems that every day New Zealanders wake up to find another member of John Key’s government indulging in arrogant behaviour, rorts, dodgy deals and conflicts of interest. Today it is backbencher Paul Foster- Bell, who knows who it will be tomorrow?

    “Team Key is turning into a first fifteen of arrogance, rorts, conflicts of interest and dodgy deals.

    Count them up : · John Banks · Judith Collins · Peter Dunne · Murray McCully

    · Gerry Brownlee · Jonathan Coleman · Maurice Williamson· Amy Adams

    · Nick Smith · Pansy Wong · Richard Worth · Phil Heatley

    · Claudette Hauiti · Aaron Gilmore · Paul Foster-Bell

    • Pasupial 12.1
      27 July 2014 at 12:47 pm

      JK

      Why is Key’s own name not on that list? When it comes to; ” arrogant behaviour, rorts, dodgy deals and conflicts of interest”, he is surely the master.

      Perhaps he is their coach?

    • ianmac 12.2
      27 July 2014 at 2:48 pm

      How come Mike Hosking is not high on the List? After all he works tirelessly for National?

    • Macro 12.3
      27 July 2014 at 4:35 pm

      And double Dipton?

      And all the cronyism’s – mates, spouses, and party faithful appointed to every trough imaginable.

    • Clemgeopin 12.4
      27 July 2014 at 10:04 pm

      Rorts, conflicts of interest and dodgy deals? You left out Bill English and John Key!

  13. vto 13
    27 July 2014 at 12:30 pm

    Rod Drury on Q&A showed why business people should stay out of politics. His opinions centred solely around business and indicated not a single scrap of thought around a community of 4,000,000 people living together in these islands.

    In addition, his opinion that Kim Dotcom should just disappear because it is just a sideshow to the real issues further undermines his lack of wisdom and understanding. The position of KDC within the current NZ political spectrum is about blatant dishonesty of our Prime Minister, the alleged corruption of our political system for international business gain (Hollywood), and the excessive and undue influence of US police and other departments over our affairs without mandate…..

    …. these are very substantial issues that cut to the core of our system.

    Wake up Rod Drury … or stick to your knitting fulla lest you let it be known that you are a one-trick wonder.

    oh, and the cry that he should be the internet representative in NZ and not Dotcom – lol that kind of exposed him perfectly. I think the adoration of the last few years has gone to his head.

    • Colonial Viper 13.1
      27 July 2014 at 12:51 pm

      From what little I have seen so far:

      1) Drury is advocating for the creation of a tech tsar in the centralised power corporate mould – a Chief Technology Officer for the country (and no doubt a whole bureaucracy to go with it).

      2) His view of technology innovation AFAIK is that of growing tech businesses which can be leveraged, spun off, sold off, etc, in the next big multi-million dollar funding round or IPO. As you identified, this has nothing to do with using technology to innovatively transform the lives of ordinary people and build value for communities.

      3) The transparent secure open source movement advocating for the sharing, decentralisation and de-commercialisation of technology means nothing to him. Other than possibly as a threat.

      4) I have serious concerns over NZ’s participation in the now multi-billion dollar security and surveillance industry. Will we morally choose to build information prisons to lock up others (and ourselves) in, in exchange for private companies making big profits. I have no idea where Drury sits on this but my guess is that he would view the industry as a growth one that ‘of course’ NZ must be a player in, leveraging our wonderful FVEYEs status.

    • Clemgeopin 13.2
      27 July 2014 at 10:20 pm

      I agree. +100

  14. bad12 14
    27 July 2014 at 12:34 pm

    Internet Providers, yesterdays outage by mine was a disappointment, i connect via a wireless modem, and, while we have to expect the odd outage an internet provider that then turns off all its phone-lines and takes 12 hours to turn em back on with a message that the connections are down on their end is begging for customers to go elsewhere,

    Its only the cost of the connection, $39.99 a month, that is keeping me with the provider, i will probably be long in my grave befor the major Telco’s, ripoffs all, get around to providing wire connections with various data packages sans the outdated landline telephone connection,

    Hell how hard is it for them to offer such a choice instead of forcing half the country who have no use for a landline phone to pay for one anyway if they want an internet connection…

    • David H 14.1
      27 July 2014 at 9:24 pm

      Bad12. It’s called Naked Broadband when you get all the services without the Landline.

  15. One Anonymous Bloke 15
    27 July 2014 at 12:35 pm

    When you pretend ACT forced you into it education vandalism gets passed under urgency. Ending slavery in New Zealand, not so much.

    Shameful, a perfect example of everything the National Party represents. The only question is, would a plea of ‘not guilty’ succeed on the basis that someone has to defend these slaves against them?

    • vto 15.1
      27 July 2014 at 12:48 pm

      Yes it is a shame but, you know, it is a relief for various of their stakeholders that they can keep their slaves, and keeps their money money money coming in, which is far more important. Isn’t it?

      Said slave-keepers;

      Sealord
      Ngai Tahu Ngapuhi Tainui Tuwharetoa … on it goes
      Independent Fisheries boss Charles Shadbolt
      Nippon Siisan …
      there are many others

      including those of us who take advantage of other various slave-keepers in far-off lands to provide us with 20c plastic buckets at The Warehouse.

      You are right OAB, there are many who should feel absolute shame

      • bad12 15.1.1
        27 July 2014 at 1:54 pm

        Interesting reference there to the Ware Whare’s plastic buckets, actually they are 99 cents, but i do understand the reference’s allusion,

        Had a conversation with the Green Party reps at the veg market this morning surrounding the cost of the Party’s promotional Tea Shirts,

        $25 bucks, sourced from fair trade and all that, no overt ‘social conscience’ on display there when i pointed out my beneficiaries budget forbid me such a luxury,

        Hell am i way past my used by date or something, i well remember the days when anything with the Green Party’s fingerprints on it came with the codicil of a ‘radically’ downsized price for beneficiaries,(i am starting to now harden in my belief that Phillip’s description is pretty accurate, albeit expressed badly in the extreme)…

        • Clemgeopin 15.1.1.1
          27 July 2014 at 10:52 pm

          I KNOW this post will rattle some, but I have a little distrust with the current Green tactics and methods, and Russel Normans, though I had enormous love and trust for Rod Donald and still have for the strong but pragmatic Jeanette Fitzsimons.

          I hated it when Norman/Greens PAID people to collect signatures for anti-asset sales petitions. I personally stopped collecting signatures after that even though I had done so previously voluntarily. I did write to him about my disappointment. He replied with some lame justification.

          Again today, his stand on complete banning on all off shore drilling as a sort of bottom line threatening that the Greens may not be a support partner of Labour is both arrogant, stupid, treacherous and extremist when these buggers can not even get a single electorate seat. These guys have become too big for their own boots. Those environmental issues need to be discussed and compromised after the election. We all love our country, not just these arrogant Greens.

          With cocky ‘ friends’ like these for Labour, who needs enemies?

  16. RedBaronCV 16
    27 July 2014 at 12:41 pm

    And Rodney Hide has an article in the Herald that I can pretty much respect -goodness me.

    • Tiger Mountain 16.1
      27 July 2014 at 1:14 pm

      yes but Hidenocerous opens with an apology which looks suspiciously like a legally prompted one, and then proceeds to cloak it in a serve on David Cunliffe

  17. Saarbo 17
    27 July 2014 at 12:44 pm

    National List out, only 29% women. Why are 50% of NZ’s supporting this backward, sit on their hands do nothing pack of hillbillies?

    • Colonial Viper 17.1
      27 July 2014 at 1:11 pm

      At a guess, on Sept 20 over 100K more women will vote for National (with their grossly gender imbalanced list) than for Labour (with its very deliberately gender balanced list).

      • Chooky 17.1.1
        27 July 2014 at 4:04 pm

        …not sure that will be the case…where is the evidence?

        • blue leopard 17.1.1.1
          27 July 2014 at 4:36 pm

          I keep questioning CV on that too Chooky – I think CV must be quoting this Stuff article by Tracy Watkins where she states:

          ‘The latest Stuff.co.nz/Ipsos polls showed women were still nearly twice as likely to vote for National than Labour, but a small gender gap seems to be appearing, with women now marginally more likely to favour Labour than men. ‘

          This statement is made by comparing the female support for National with that of Labour from the Ipsos poll.

          If the same comparison is done with the male breakdown – men are three times as likely to support National over Labour.

          Of course if you do the comparison for National vs Left by adding the Greens (no data for Mana or the Internet Party) then female support for the latest Ipsos poll is almost evenly divided between National and the Left: 49 for National and 43 for the Left .

          Further, if you use the drop down boxes and check out the gender breakdown for June, May, February 2014 and October 2013 (These are the only months provided for some unknown reason) then apart from June and July female support for the Left has been consistently greater than support for National.

          This is not the case with the male breakdown – who have been supporting National over the Left for all those aforementioned months.

          Here is where I got the data: http://origin-interactives.stuff.co.nz/polling/

          In other words the comments that CV keeps making re the political preferences of women are misleading.

          • Chooky 17.1.1.1.1
            27 July 2014 at 10:23 pm

            when Helen Clark was Prime Minister I think the pronounced majority of voters for Labour were women….so Cunliffe might be on to something when he apologises for being a man ( cunning plan?)

            ..(.maybe he should put lipstick on , wear a dress and a wig?..lol…not serious!)

            …incidentally i note Georgina Byers is back in action…this time she is standing for IMP!…she was hugely popular….mainly due to her personality i think

            • blue leopard 17.1.1.1.1.1
              27 July 2014 at 10:40 pm

              …aww and I thought the lipstick & wig idea was a good one…. (better than CV’s interpretation of the stats anyway…) 😆

        • marty mars 17.1.1.2
          27 July 2014 at 4:42 pm

          Yes Chooky I agree but cv does say “at a guess” and his views on this subject matter are pretty well known. It would be interesting to see the breakdown of vote via gender and income to see if any patterns could be identified. The lists for the Greens and IMP are also getting to a gender balance imo at least down to likely seats, so labour are not alone.

          • Colonial Viper 17.1.1.2.1
            27 July 2014 at 6:03 pm

            I’ll be quite happy to revisit my “over 100,000 more women will vote for National than for Labour” comment once the full electoral stats are known after Sept 20. Needless to say, I think that the figure represents a fairly safe guess (which to my mind would only be threatened if turnout is even lower than last time).

            • marty mars 17.1.1.2.1.1
              27 July 2014 at 6:40 pm

              The whole analysis post-election will no doubt be mind-boggling. The numbers will be stark and the analysis of what it all means will be wide – a bit like the polls where everyone is winning and spinning.

            • karol 17.1.1.2.1.2
              27 July 2014 at 6:48 pm

              It’s not so much about numbers but percentages and comparisons with who/what men vote for.

            • McFlock 17.1.1.2.1.3
              27 July 2014 at 6:52 pm

              are going to normalise the vote share to account for the fact that national have no friends?

              • Colonial Viper …
                27 July 2014 at 11:00 pm

                Not talking about vote share; am talking about absolute numbers of people voting one way or the other i.e. that significantly more women will vote National than will vote Labour.

                (yes I know its MMP and there are more than 2 horses)

                • McFlock …
                  28 July 2014 at 12:27 am

                  then you might well be correct, but only because there are more choices for women (and men, for that matter) on the left and not the right of parliament

            • Chooky 17.1.1.2.1.4
              27 July 2014 at 10:14 pm

              CV…all your “guess” indicates….is that you are mixing with dubious sorts ….of bad or dumb women

      • McFlock 17.1.2
        27 July 2014 at 4:39 pm

        yes, because it is a two-horse race /sarc

    • Anne 17.2
      27 July 2014 at 7:00 pm

      Why are 50% of NZ’s supporting this backward, sit on their hands do nothing pack of hillbillies?

      Do you want a simple answer Saarbo? It’s depressing I warn you.

      Because 50% are:
      a) plain dumb.
      b) aspirational… in that they like to pretend they are privileged, and the privileged vote National. In other words they are a) plain dumb.

      I guess hillbillies attract hillbillies.

      • marty mars 17.2.1
        27 July 2014 at 7:12 pm

        I don’t think that is correct at all. People don’t want to face the truth because it is too difficult – much easier to keep pretending that everything is either a) okay or b) about to get okay.

        • Anne 17.2.1.1
          27 July 2014 at 7:30 pm

          I based my observations in part on some relatives. Aspirational in the sense they are inclined to see themselves in the upper middle bracket of society, but at the same time they have huge mortgages and are struggling to make ends meet. They’re not dumb per-se, but they are politically dumb in that they can’t see the obvious… that a Labour/Green coalition government would be so much better for them. That’s the ‘pretend’ bit we both refer to…

          • marty mars 17.2.1.1.1
            27 July 2014 at 7:36 pm

            Yes I agree with that – thanks for the clarification Anne. I’d only adjust to IMP/Green/Labour coalition 🙂 that may be a ‘b)’ from my comment above.

            • Anne 17.2.1.1.1.1
              27 July 2014 at 7:41 pm

              Well, I’d change that to a Labour/Green/IMP coalition but we can quarrel about that when the time comes. 🙂

          • Chooky 17.2.1.1.2
            27 July 2014 at 10:28 pm

            some quite poor people vote Nactional ( quite against their interests and they are not obviously dumb, in fact quite the contrary)

            ….and I have analysed them ….and I think it is snobbery combined with insecurity ie they want to be in with who they perceive as the winners in society…even although they are on the bones of their bum themselves

            • Colonial Viper 17.2.1.1.2.1
              27 July 2014 at 11:04 pm

              “If you look after your bosses, your bosses will look after you”

              I heard this out on the campaign trail in Clutha Southland, and from working class people.

            • Clemgeopin 17.2.1.1.2.2
              27 July 2014 at 11:26 pm

              Dogs love their friendly looking master EVEN if the bad master just throws them some left over scraps, because the scrap swallowing ignorant dogs are none the wiser. Fact!

      • Saarbo 17.2.2
        27 July 2014 at 8:19 pm

        Yes it s depressing Anne, it makes me wonder why so many Kiwis have become so hard that they no longer feel that as a society we need to look after our most vulnerable, so many seem to have lost their compassion for the less fortunate, its ugly. On the other hand, given the resources that the Right has to persuade people of the merits of their desire for an unadulterated free market systems, then perhaps the fact that they only have around 50% (of voters) support would suggest that there are still plenty of decent people around.

      • Rupert 17.2.3
        27 July 2014 at 10:24 pm

        ”Because 50% are:
        a) plain dumb.
        b) aspirational ..”
        .Your theory fails to explain why voters were not ”dumb” a few years ago when Clark was leader and National was getting about 20% support. The population does not become ”dumb” and then ”stupid” and then ”dumb” in some random fashion. Your theory does away with Labour’s responsibilty to find out why it’s not getting support. It got lots of support when Clark was leader.

        • Colonial Viper 17.2.3.1
          27 July 2014 at 11:05 pm

          There’s a hard truth to your comments too.

        • Clemgeopin 17.2.3.2
          27 July 2014 at 11:40 pm

          Clarke, Cullen and the Labour party delivered all their pledged promises and were fair, just. responsible and caring in those nine years. In the last year, silly low level scandals were blown way over the top by the National spin machine aided by Crosby Textor and the media.

          Now the same spin machine is undermining Cunliffe and Labour on flimsy issues rather than debating fairly on substance and policies. People are not political junkies like you and me, are gullible and easily fooled and trust the media framing.

          One single unfair loaded headline can affect perceptions.

          • Clemgeopin 17.2.3.2.1
            28 July 2014 at 12:24 am

            Why is my comment in moderation? Strange!

          • Rupert 17.2.3.2.2
            28 July 2014 at 9:26 am

            ”In the last year, silly low level scandals were blown way over the top by the National spin machine aided by Crosby Textor and the media.”
            Labour has been losing support since 2012. This trend reversed under Shearer and Labour started to increase its support. After Cunliffe took over the trend returned to Labour losing more and more support over time. I’m pretty sure that when Shearer was there , people also spoke about the media undermining Labour and voters being ”dumb”. Here’s a thought: maybe it’s the Labour party that is ”dumb”.

            • Clemgeopin 17.2.3.2.2.1
              28 July 2014 at 10:40 am

              ”In the last year, silly low level scandals were blown way over the top by the National spin machine aided by Crosby Textor and the media.”

              I was referring to the last year of Helen’s Government, not 2012.

              As for your comment that may be the Labour party itself is dumb shows to me that it is you who is dumb.

  18. Blue 18
    27 July 2014 at 1:32 pm

    Two very interesting articles on Stuff today.

    The first is about how totally useless and compliant the NZ media are, and how National absolutely can’t stand journos who do their job:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10315410/Brownlee-lashes-tosspot-journalist

    The second is some media people finally getting onto the family of the Kiwi who was killed in a drone strike in Yemen:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-east/10310496/A-Kiwi-lads-death-by-drone

    • Weepus beard 18.1
      27 July 2014 at 5:11 pm

      I saw that first one. I think the Australian journos were genuinely dumbfounded at the lack of union representation in the aftermath. This would have been the case in Australia, a country with a long tradition in mining and much stronger unions than New Zealand.

      Everyone who got upset over the “country cop” line is missing the point. The point was not the denigration of the NZ police, but how on earth could someone ordinarily in charge of day to day criminal activities (let’s face it, burglaries and traffic infringements), be responsible for overseeing rescue efforts during the most serious NZ industrial accident since Erebus.

      I think Higgins erred by using “country cop”, but according to his account there was a great deal of frustration amongst the Aussie press at that time and his point was valid. I believe the NZ press were too shocked to ask anything of value in this regard.

      That Higgins had a valid point has been lost because of the National government’s desire to limit the scrutiny around the decreasing influence of regulatory bodies and union involvement on work sites under their watch.

      Brownlee is running yet another diversion campaign using expletives and pejorative language, which is the default position of this government when bad news occurs. This, after he boards a plane in clear breach of aviation rules.

      This government is just too casual.

  19. greywarbler 19
    27 July 2014 at 1:53 pm

    @ colonial viper 1.11
    You have probably traversed the reasons for so many women staying with National already, so I’ll have a look later. But the idea of raising super age must have a large effect on women’s decision making. For them particularly managing to live, living to manage, can be hard while waiting to get to 65.

    If one of a couple is sick or can’t work then the other is expected to and earn for the enough to keep them both. . If supporting a sick partner, or an alcohol or gambling or mentally unstable one that puts a great burden on the woman, if she cannot get a decent paying job with enough hours so she can make their living.

    And she may work herself into sickness as well, even if she is in one of the professions. A nurse, overworked, or a teacher overworked and under sneering criticism by right wingers, additionally by unco-ordinated low income parents quick to criticise their child’s teacher. Yet she/he will be attempting to educate a child who has never seen thinking and study modelled, or received any regularinstruction, at home. And a woman on her own will be likely to be poor, and perhaps have to work at three jobs to manage to live.

    When a woman has poor working conditions, erratic unreliable work hours, unreasonable, life-denying rosters and LOW PAY it makes getting onto super seem like a high point in life – like having climbed one of NZ mountains.

    • JK 19.1
      27 July 2014 at 3:16 pm

      Thanks for this comment Grey Warbler. I have tried and tried to get Labour MPs to see reason on this particular subject — I’m trying again using your comments as the basis for my argument.

      • Anne 19.1.1
        27 July 2014 at 3:37 pm

        @JK
        I can add another dimension to grewwarbler’s comment you can pass on to Labour MPs. It’s a situation many women (and some men) find themselves in during their 50s and early 60s. That is, having to stop working to look after aged and often sick parents. In my case it was an aged mother with Alzhiemers. The care-givers wage is better now, but not so long ago it was the same as the unemployment benefit. When the parent or parents pass away the carer is left in the awful position where she/he can’t start another career or get a decent job. The Super becomes the life saviour.

      • RedBaronCV 19.1.2
        27 July 2014 at 5:52 pm

        Not to mention that a significant portion of women go into retirement single and in many cases single and having brought up the kids by themselves financially as well.

        So after no or low earning while the children are younger, then in the middle years modest earnings, very little child support received and all the kids expenses paid by them, followed in later years being solely responsible for the post 18 years old expenses of the kids (contining to house them etc.) they are now obliged to try to keep working until they are 67. Even if it doesn’t affect them because they are too old this policy will drive them away. Perhaps they should be entitled to a share of the non caregivers pension.

        Even two adults earning modest incomes are likely to be earning more than a single adult household.

    • Foreign Waka 19.2
      27 July 2014 at 4:51 pm

      AAAA++++ and why is it that Superannuation is not measured on individual need and yet tax burdens are dished out and collected by individual contribution?
      It seems that when a women retires she becomes the left foot of her partner/husband. Basically, other than the right to vote NZ women have gained jack sh… really. They still have the major burden to carry with work (one income most likely will not support a family), childcare, elder care, household maintenance, and the reward is a career that does not exist.
      The saddest part of it all is that women in parliament will make life even more difficult – ref Paula Bennett. But all of this maybe a brilliant social engineering job because it is easier to be single and have no obligations.

      • JK 19.2.1
        28 July 2014 at 8:27 am

        Thank you all (Anne, Red Baron CV, Foreign Waka). I’ll use your comments in yet another message to those unthinking male Labour MPs ! ! !

        • RedBaronCV 19.2.1.1
          28 July 2014 at 9:19 pm

          My pleasure JK – we know from Australia that women go into retirement with about half the fund of the blokes and live longer. Also women probably spend less taxpayer dollars on the way through. Vote justice, police, prisons(and the DPB topping up male reponsibility avoiders) used to be about $4billiona year. All but about 3% of it spent on males. Basically women and single mothers are model citizens offending against society at a lower rate than Judegs, Act MP’s etc etc.

  20. phillip ure 20
    27 July 2014 at 3:07 pm

    then there is the distributist point of view..

    http://www.guernicamag.com/daily/jay-walljasper-the-conservative-case-for-a-commons-way-of-life/

    “..There’s a potential for both left and right to be Distributist..”

  21. georgecom 21
    27 July 2014 at 6:01 pm

    It is good to see that ineptitude is still rewarded in this country.

    Hekia Parata promoted up the Nats Party list.

    Some may try and claim it is on the basis of ability.

    What, the promise of ability?

    So when is she going to show some?

    • greywarbler 21.1
      27 July 2014 at 6:34 pm

      @ georgecom 6.01
      Oh good there’s hope for me, if I suck up to NACTs enough. Trouble is I haven’t got any key assets, I don’t carry a group of followers with me, I haven’t any money, none of my relatives is notably rich and influential, no-one could do me up well for TV appearances (a la Pam Ayres). I think I’ll be staying near the bottom of the caste system.

  22. Naki man 22
    27 July 2014 at 6:08 pm

    Fantastic news for New Zealand
    TV one poll, 14 point lead to National over the left
    66 seats for National, easily able to govern alone
    Cunners the gift that keeps on giving.

    • mickysavage 22.1
      27 July 2014 at 6:15 pm

      Don’t get to excited Naki. National is 4% behind the equivalent CM Poll from last time. And this time it has no friends except for Dunne and Craig and it is going to have to sacrifice the Conservative Party’s 2%.

      • Naki man 22.1.1
        27 July 2014 at 6:44 pm

        The Rena wont run aground again and there will be no Tea tapes fiasco
        so no problems for the Nats
        Noddy Norman says the Green Taliban may not support Labour if they allow deep sea drilling.

        • McFlock 22.1.1.1
          27 July 2014 at 6:50 pm

          no opportunities to wear fluoro vests and pretend to be competent, either: just security doors barged through, dodgy expenses claimed, and millions of dollars in shares going to rich speculators rather than “mum and dad investors”.

        • Te Reo Putake 22.1.1.2
          27 July 2014 at 6:57 pm

          Ha! If you’re forced to make shit up, you really must be worried. The Greens are ready and willing to go into coalition with Labour, without bottom lines about drilling or anything else. No mates National are barely hanging on, as the list released today shows. They know they haven’t got a chance without Dunne and ACT. Watch for the desperation to show when they’re forced to yank McCully from standing in his seat to allow option C, Colin Craig, to run unopposed.

          • Naki man 22.1.1.2.1
            27 July 2014 at 10:34 pm

            I am not making anything up, you cant have seen Noddy Norman on three news
            The Nats wont need to help Colin Crazy Craig either.

    • McFlock 22.2
      27 July 2014 at 6:16 pm

      lol
      Because they never said that before the previous election.
      And national have even fewer friends than they did last time.

    • Weepus beard 22.3
      27 July 2014 at 7:06 pm

      How is this not trolling? Moderators need to take out the trash a bit more often in my humble opinion.

  23. RedBaronCV 23
    27 July 2014 at 6:13 pm

    Georgina Beyer standing for Mana in Tai Tonga. What does this do for Rino?

  24. greywarbler 24
    27 July 2014 at 6:26 pm

    Has someone caught up with Chris Trotter’s post on Bowalley Raod. He compares the Labour position of almost anarchy with the French Revolution. The peasants in NZ have similarly revolted. But they hadn’t a Robespierre to chop off the aristos heads, so to speak. No, it is almost that after storming the Bastille, breaking it open, the rank and file have built it up again and the same warders are on the payroll.

    It would be so good to say it is a farrago of frothy conjecture.. But he is right I reluctantly concede. And he makes a point that should ensure a long discussion, and a heated one.

    Then again, if we’re following the grand arc of French history, perhaps, somewhere in Labour’s ranks, there exists a young commander of artillery with vaunting ambitions and inordinate strategic skills.
    Someone ready to deploy the rhetoric of the revolution to secure the absolute power of the throne. Not for the peasantry, who lack the will to lead. Nor yet for the corrupt aristocracy, who don’t deserve it. But for him – or herself – alone.
    http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/2014/07/french-lessons.html

    I have been complaining about a lack of esprit de corps here. I wonder if there is a compatriot who can jump the barricades and the milling throng in the moshpit and actually fire the rocket! We do not want to receive a miserable drubbing at the elections. Les Miserables Do You Hear the People Sing

    edit

    Then again, if we’re following the grand arc of French history, perhaps, somewhere in Labour’s ranks, there exists a young commander of artillery with vaunting ambitions and inordinate strategic skills. Someone ready to deploy the rhetoric of the revolution to secure the absolute power of the throne. Not for the peasantry, who lack the will to lead. Nor yet for the corrupt aristocracy, who don’t deserve it. But for him – or herself – alone.

    Just where this Napoleonic figure lies in waiting is difficult to say. Not in the unions, whose opportunity to grasp the brass ring of power came and went 23 years ago when they refused to fight Bill Birch’s Employment Contracts Bill. Not in the careerist warrens funded by the tax-payer through Parliamentary Services and the DPMC. Not among the horse-traders on Labour’s Party List. Not even among the rank-and-file who still refuse to accept the consequences of their revolution.

    No, if there is a Napoleon out there in the Labour Party my best guess is that you will find him or her toiling away in the corridors of local government. It will be someone who understands what it takes to get elected by your fellow citizens – without the benefit of party colours.

    If Helen Clark’s departure unleashed the flood, perhaps this new, Napoleonic, Labour leader can drain the swamp.

    This essay was originally published in The Waikato Times, The Taranaki Daily News, The Timaru Herald, The Otago Daily Times and The Greymouth Star of Friday, 25 July 2014.
    Posted by Chris Trotter at 17:33
    Labels: 2014 General Election, French Revolution, Labour Party Factional Warfare
    12 comments:

    Anonymous said…

    Alternatively, Helen Clark's style of leadership was a direct reaction to the shenanigans that were going on during the first stage of her time as leader (1993 to 1996). Clark going into the 1996 election would have killed for the level of support Cunliffe enjoys now.
26 July 2014 18:03

    Brendan McNeill said…

    “If there is a Napoleon out there in the Labour Party my best guess is that you will find him or her toiling away in the corridors of local government.”

That means they are presently unknown, and therefore not on the party list this election.

That makes them three years away from visibility and election to Parliament, then a minimum of three years to ‘earn their stripes’ before selection as leader, then a further three years to the following election…

That’s nine years away from now.

Based upon present trends, what will the Labour party be polling in nine years time?
26 July 2014 22:21

    Anonymous said…

    A 'night of the long knives' would, I imagine, be inappropriate this close to the election.
26 July 2014 22:21

    Victor said…

    And what then?

Waterloo?
26 July 2014 23:29

    Rain333 said…

    I have heard a lot of commentary comparing Cunliffe to Clark, in that Helen Clark too was polling poorly for a very long time. I have heard this repeated many times and only recently by Mike Williams. There is a difference, a vast difference. At the risk of being confusing, people didn't 'get' Helen Clark, not for a long time, but Helen Clark got that. People do 'get' Cunliffe, it's Cunliffe who appears not to 'get' Cunliffe. And if he's confused...what hope for the rest of us!
26 July 2014 23:42

    markus said…

    Your description of this young Napoleonic figure puts me in mind of my local (Porirua) Mayor, 35 year-old Nick Leggett. Long-time member of the Labour Party but stood for both Council and Mayor as an independent, garnering electoral support from across the (unusually deep) social divide - suburbs both as Blue as a New Tatoo (eg Whitby) and as red as a Railway Shed (eg Cannons Creek).

Only problem is: he's very much part and parcel of the ABC former-Rogernome wing of the Party. Like his friend and political advisor/media commentator, Phil Quin, Leggett was inspired to join the Party (as a teenager) by Mike Moore. Both Leggett and Quin were, I think it's fair to say, highly supportive of Rogernomics (although both are probably a little conflicted about that period in retrospect). In other words, while he certainly has the vaunting ambition (and possibly the strategic skills), I'm not sure Leggett would be able to pull off the feat of convincingly cloaking himself in the Blood Red mantle of the Revolution.

And certainly he would never be my pick for Porirua MP, let alone Labour PM. (Incidently, Leggett's been endorsed as a future Labour leader by his close political chum and confidante, the now-ACT-leaning Wellington Regional Council Chairwoman, Fran Wilde, and by the noted "pro"- Israeli/neo-conservative apologist/propagandist and would-be 'Internationally-Respected Man of Letters', David Cohen - the latter in the Listener a year or two back). He'd certainly be the sort favoured by the ABC ancien regime aristocracy dandys with their powdered faces, elaborate wigs and discrete little black love-hearts painted on left cheek.
27 July 2014 09:08

    Chris Trotter said…

    Well spotted, Markus!

It would be great to be able to offer the reward system of the student newspapers of the 70s and 80s, which was the gifting of a chocolate fish to the most enterprising and/or particularly perspicacious readers.

Please consider yourself the recipient of a virtual chocolate fish. Nic Leggett was, indeed, the person I had in mind. And, after the crashing and burning of the Left and all their hopes on 20/9/14 - which now seems likely - it will almost certainly be a person of Nic's ideological heritage who clears away the wreckage and begins again.

And, yes, Victor - a Waterloo will follow. It always does. Because, as Enoch Powell sadly observed: "All political lives, unless they are cut off in midstream at a happy juncture, end in failure, because that is the nature of politics and of human affairs."
27 July 2014 11:11

    J Bloggs said…

    Perhaps your French history metaphor is a bit too early - instead of being Louis XV, Helen Clarke was actually the Napolean to Roger Douglas' Robespierre. The revolution and bloodletting happened in the eighties, from which Helen ascended to political dominance over the continental landscape of NZ politics. For 9 years, she had absolute control over the left, with the right banished to their bastions trying desperately to maintain what position they could. With Helen having met her Waterloo at the hands of the National party's General Key, and departed overseas, the Labour party is now in the throes of the equivilent of France's 19th century political turmoil, while beside them, another rising power, relatively new to the political scene (The Greens) challenges for control over the continental left...
27 July 2014 11:42

    Guerilla Surgeon said…

    So we are going to end up with another Rogergnome? Oh joy!
27 July 2014 12:18

    Anonymous said…

    re Nic Leggett, don't panic. Cunliffe will come through in September. If he doesn't, it wont be Cunliffe leaving, the R&F will ensure it is some of the old rogernomes and DC will come through in 2017. Stay calm.
27 July 2014 12:24

    Kat said…

    So a little Napoleonic dalliance we play.

It could be argued David Cunliffe exhibits similar complex personality traits attributed to the great Horatio Nelson. I suspect there is no 'Emma' but the sudden appearance of a 'bullet' is plausible.

That bullet won't be from the sinking tin ship of National though. Somewhere in the corridors a voice will be heard lamenting, "We have lost more than we have
  25. greywarbler 25
    27 July 2014 at 6:38 pm

    Just an addendum – further from Chris’s post

    There are only two ways out of this impasse. Either Labour’s peasantry make good on their revolutionary promise and utterly destroy those caucus aristocrats who would restore Helen Clark’s royal absolutism. Or, one of those aristocrats finds the courage to crush the peasants’ revolt, seize the throne, and restore the ancien regime.

    • McFlock 25.1
      27 July 2014 at 6:46 pm

      had a quick look at his blog for the first time in ages.
      Yeah, nah.

      Purges don’t work (even if they were theoretically possible in a democracy), because a necessary factor to say “you are bad, you must leave” is an uncompromising belief in the sentence “I am correct. Disagreement with me is a crime”.
      Labour is not being changed by a saviour, and people shouldn’t hope for one. A saviour becomes a demagogue. Labour, like any democracy, is changed by the will of the membership, when it decides to realise that power.

      As for TS, esprit de corps is a military term. Militaries require close uniformity to operate.

      Commenters at The Standard are more along the lines of a large, chaotic family: we fight, but we also back each other up if a tory says something unreasonable (which is often). Sometimes at the same time.

      • greywarbler 25.1.1
        27 July 2014 at 7:00 pm

        True McFlock about esprit de corps. Bur raggle taggle gypsies get thrown out of town – the moshpit is confused, as enthusiasts emotions spark, but gather cohesion, not,. More likely to end in a punch up about who said something insulting or who spilt the beer.

        If lefties want to give it a go to get into government at this stage and not give up whimpily? then a cohesive force of volunteers must put their best foot forward, and not waste energy on petty arguments. We need a Nancy Wake like leader – now she was someone who could work with chauvinists (mostly male) and any others who had to be loyal, and willing to shut the heck up and get on with the task. Not military, just committed Frenchmen (replace with NZ) plus additional free spirits there to help.

      • greywarbler 25.1.2
        27 July 2014 at 7:17 pm

        @ McFlock 6.46
        I’m bothered – I can’t see the comment that I put up that you refer to, with the esprit de corps mention. I see the para I put up as an addendum.

        Where can the other one have gone? I saw it, and then tried to add the addendum and the machine gave me the message it was too late to edit and save so I withdrew. You must have seen it about then.

        I put the extra para at 6.38pm and yours is timed at 6.46 pm. Now it is not visible and doesn’t appear in my archives. How did that disappear?

        • McFlock 25.1.2.1
          27 July 2014 at 7:27 pm

          yeah I replied to that one, but then thought you must have edited it so shifted the reply to the other comment which must have been a followup rather than an edit.

          DB issue maybe.

          • greywarbler 25.1.2.1.1
            28 July 2014 at 9:07 am

            @McFlock 7.27
            Thanks for getting back. I think it was my fault. I think I didn’t close the edit window when it turned me down but immediately opened a new window with the copied material I had ready to paste. I didn’t realise I was then abandoning the previous comment. So got the new one down but lost the other – looking at my past history. – nothing.

    • Colonial Viper 25.2
      27 July 2014 at 6:48 pm

      Possibly correct; while positive change is indeed occurring within the party it is necessarily slow given the constraints of a big old multi-faceted party machinery. And NZ does not have much time to start getting things on the right track for a difficult and depleting future.

  26. karol 26
    27 July 2014 at 6:51 pm

    Andrea Vance on John Key being very selective about his “transparency”. She’s clearly been influenced by her experience of privacy breaches and surveillance.

    • Colonial Viper 26.1
      27 July 2014 at 7:01 pm

      It’s all fun and games and champagne when you think that you are in with the power elite…until that day you finally figure out that to them, you’re just another disposable cog in the machine.

  28. marty mars 28
    27 July 2014 at 7:24 pm

    Georgina Beyer to stand for MANA in Te Tai Tonga – I think this is a great move and I’m looking forward to voting for her.

    “It’s great to have Georgie on board” said Hone Harawira, MANA Leader and Te Tai Tokerau MP. ”She’s strong-minded, stands up to be counted, and has fought for the rights of those who haven’t had any – and won. That makes her an ideal fit for MANA..”
    Ms Beyer, who has links to the Te Tai Tonga electorate through her Te Ati Awa and Ngati Mutunga whakapapa, was the world’s first openly transsexual mayor and MP and helped lead law changes to decriminalise prostitution and introduce civil unions.
    “Our goal this election is to raise the profile of MANA, grow our numbers in Parliament, and help change the government. Georgina’s a respected household name in politics so she’s an important part of helping achieve that goal. We feel honoured to have her.”
    “I’m really excited and things are already full steam ahead for the campaign” said Ms Beyer. ”My health is steady, so it’s great to have a new challenge.”
    “When approached about the role, there were a few things to consider as there always are. Taking on this role is my way of making amends to Maori for voting for the foreshore and seabed bill which I was forced into and which totally broke me. I’m very proud to stand with MANA.”

    http://mana.net.nz/2014/07/georgina-beyer-to-stand-for-mana-in-te-tai-tonga/

    • bad12 28.1
      27 July 2014 at 9:39 pm

      Marty, am a bit yeah/nah yeah/nah at this news, huge ups goes Georgina’s way from the working girls i know who now are not a constant target of the Plods, not for the arrests that were made by the 1000’s over the employment they are involved in, coz there wasn’t,

      The aspect of the Legislation probably not seen or discussed here in any great length saw the legislation remove the girls from being the meat in the sandwich as far as the Plods using them as a source of information,(with the obvious threat),goes,

      One of the nahs would have to be the missed opportunity to throw someone younger in the deep end thus bringing a fresh face, maybe for the future, into the Mana Whanau, where admittedly the Party aint got a huge profile here in the capital,(a task i hope to be able to get into after September),

      If i were Georgina i wouldn’t stress too much that particular whakapapa when campaigning in Te Tai Tonga, obviously the bigger part of the electorate is the rohe of Ngai Tahu but those of us who’s bones in Whanga-nui-a-Tara pre-date the arrival of both Te Ati Awa and Ngati Mutunga, now morehu, may, if as many of us do, live as much in the past as we do in the present and the future, take offence,

      Lolz that’s it two nah’s i am tossing my toys/Joke…

  29. Kiwiri 29
    27 July 2014 at 10:44 pm

    Blue ribbon will be what I will be wearing in September when I will be supporting the campaign against the National Party?

    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/nbhea/2066847918-blue-ribbon-campaign-for-prostate-cancer

    Or will that be to support the campaign for Prostate Cancer?

    On second thoughts, I will be wearing a purple ribbon instead to support:

    ADD and ADHD
    Adoption
    Alzheimer's disease
    Anti-Gay Bullying
    Arnold-Chiari Malformation
    Breastfeeding
    Victims of 9/11
    Child Abuse
    Crohn's Disease
    Animal abuse
    Cystic Fibrosis
    Domestic violence
    Dyscalculia
    Eating Disorder Awareness
    Epilepsy
    Father's Rights and Parental Rights
    Fibromyalgia
    Gastrointestinal cancer
    Gynecologic Cancers
    Hidradenitis Suppurativa
    Homelessness
    Huntington's disease
    Loss
    Lupus
    Macular degeneration
    Migraine
    Multiple System Atrophy
    Overdose Prevention
    Pagan Pride Day
    Pancreatic cancer
    Porphyria
    Hemiplegia Hemiparesis or Pediatric stroke
    Proportional representation voting system for UK elections (May 2010)
    Pulmonary hypertension
    Religious tolerance
    Rett Syndrome www.rettsyndrome.org
    Rumination Syndrome
    Suicide Prevention (entered uses after the 2010 outbreak of LGBT teen suicides)
    Sarcoidosis
    Thyroid cancer
    Ulcerative Colitis
    Wildland Firefighters
    Workers' Memorial Day
    Xenophobia and Homophobia (Austria 2009)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_ribbon

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