NRT: Unacceptable

Written By: - Date published: 9:13 am, December 14th, 2013 - 187 comments
Categories: len brown - Tags: ,

no-right-turn-256No Right Turn has a view on Len Brown accepting undeclared complementarities from the hotel industry. How many of these were from SkyCity? And who else has been getting them?

So, the report on Len Brown’s affair with a council staffer is out, revealing that he received free hotel rooms and upgrades worth nearly $40,000 which he did not declare as gifts.

I don’t care who Len Brown fucks, and I don’t really want to know. But I do care that he maintains basic standards of integrity in public office, and that means declaring all significant gifts. Particularly when those gifts come from organisations in a position to receive favours from him or the Council. Brown has failed in that basic task. He must resign.

187 comments on “NRT: Unacceptable ”

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  1. lprent 1
    14 December 2013 at 9:18 am

    Digging out reports this morning

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11172295

    A number of hotels said it was standard industry practice to provide upgrades and free rooms for VIPs.

    Complimentary rooms were at the Hilton (4), SkyCity and SkyCity Grand (3), The Langham (1), and the Copthorne Hotel Auckland Harbour City (1). Upgrades were at the Stamford Plaza (57), SkyCity and SkyCity Grand (5), Heritage (1) and The Langham (1).

    It is standard practice. That really isn’t the issue. As NRT says, the issue is that they weren’t declared.

    • lprent 1.1
      14 December 2013 at 9:20 am

      Same link

      Len Brown admitted he should not have accepted free rooms, and should have disclosed that he had in October.

      “This was an error of judgment and I apologise to the people of Auckland,” he said.

      “However, I accept that as mayor I am subject to a higher standard of public accountability, and in this context I should not have accepted the free rooms offered to me, and should have disclosed this fact when I was asked about it in October.”

      He has that right.

      I’ll have a look at the full report (anyone have a readable link – scribe is too nit-picky) after I wake up a bit. Lyn has that damn bug that has been rasping peoples voices. Not nice for partners as it also seems to keep them awake. And they’re redoing the road outside my apartment this morning (groan)

    • CnrJoe 1.2
      14 December 2013 at 7:40 pm

      How come so many – different – hotels?

      • lprent 1.2.1
        16 December 2013 at 12:13 am

        That is a good question. The answer is probably mundane.

        I suspect that had a lot to do with what he was doing. If I was rolling out of the Vector Arena late at night after a function, then I’d be heading for one of the hotels on symonds street.

        It’d also depend on what hotels had rooms which is often a issue in Auckland.

        From the report
        http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/SiteCollectionDocuments/Independent%20Review%20Report%20FINAL%20131213.pdf

        “The Mayoress has advised there is an arrangement with The Stamford Plaza whereby the family
        (including the mayor) stay privately on a regular basis with the Mayoress being responsible for
        payment.”

        Table 2.3.2 makes for interesting reading

        Stamford Plaza accounts for 57 out of the 74 hotel nights (and 57 out of the 64 upgrades).

        The next was SkyCity with 8 bookings. I seem to remember those hotels are one of the closest to the council offices. However I’m more concerned that SkyCity are also comped the hotel rooms 3 times.

        Mind you so did the Hilton 4 out of 4 times.

        But the thing that worries me the most is that these were not declared, and if the SkyCity comps were when the convention centre debate was on.

  2. karol 2
    14 December 2013 at 9:28 am

    Yes. Very disappointed in Brown. Not the first time – there was also the Ports of Auckland dispute.

    I am now looking to see who will be a stronger left candidate for the next council election.

    Brown seems to be too much at the centre of the politics that have been captured by the “neoliberal” (now) current establishment.

    The best I will hope from him now, is that he focuses on doing what is right for Auckland (To some extent what Bomber posted). Except Bomber is using it to push his line about the neglect of Auckland politically.

    For me, Brown and the council need to get focused on sorting out the stuff important to many Aucklanders, especially the neglected low income people (mostly now on the fringes of Auckland): better public transport; affordable housing; maintaining good public services, etc.

    • Tigger 2.1
      14 December 2013 at 6:08 pm

      Agree, Karol. Brown will limp out this term. Best for the left to find someone good and start positioning them now. There’s a wide open field. Brown and Palino can’t run again. The right are ready looking for candidates (latest rumour is Hide but I’m sure my source was having me on).

  3. Will@Welly 3
    14 December 2013 at 9:46 am

    I’ve supported Len up until now. Time to fall on the sword. It’s all about transparency, accountability, and honesty. A “lame duck” in office now.
    Banksy goes up for not declaring undeclared donations – this is equally as damning.

    • Marksman 3.1
      14 December 2013 at 10:02 am

      Sadly I have to agree,why do people who attain high office always seem to slide to the dark side.With rightwingers I expect it,when the left do it,it rips my undies.Fuck ya Len.

    • weka 3.2
      14 December 2013 at 2:01 pm

      “Banksy goes up for not declaring undeclared donations – this is equally as damning.”

      What Banks did was illegal. Has Brown broken the law? Also, Banks lied and continues to lie about it. Brown has been upfront immediately. People can make mistakes, it’s how they deal with them that counts (and the severity of the mistake).

      I don’t have an opinion yet on whether Brown should resign or not (probably don’t care that much as I live a long way from Auckland). The thing in the Herald link that I didn’t like was him talking about his wife as his soul mate on Campbell. I have more respect for people in that situation who say “that’s a private matter” when asked about their marriage. I don’t think any of us are in a position to judge what is going on at that level, so why keep providing details?

    • amirite 3.3
      14 December 2013 at 6:20 pm

      And hypocritical, when the ordinary council employees are specifically prohibited from accepting any kind of gifts from public.

  4. Sanctuary 4
    14 December 2013 at 10:23 am

    I think Brown will tough it out and do a decent job, but I doubt he will stand next time. Hmmm, the needs to ensure it’s time in government coincides with a leftish mayor in Auckland. Someone like Phil Goff, for example.

    • red rattler 4.1
      14 December 2013 at 10:46 am

      Phul Goff? Fuck Off!
      Brown is a Clown. Goff is a Toff.

    • redrattler 4.2
      14 December 2013 at 10:48 am

      Phul Goff? Fcuk Off!
      Brown is a clown, Goff is a toff.

    • Rodel 4.3
      14 December 2013 at 11:21 am

      Sanctuary
      Thoughtful comment. I agree with you. (but Christchurch people tell me that you could have Gerry Brownlee if you like).

    • Murray Olsen 4.4
      14 December 2013 at 10:48 pm

      I was going to say “leftish” and Goff don’t belong in the same sentence, but you have a full stop between them.
      I don’t have an opinion on whether Brown should resign or not, but he shouldn’t stand again. He sold out his constituency. He’s more worried about legalities and painting pretty designs on the leg irons that Hide strapped on the city. We need a mayor who will stand for the port workers, who will stand for the GI tenants, and who will cut the salaries of the self serving cabal at the top. We do not need a mayor who wants to make workers anywhere wait two more years for their pensions. Auckland gave Aotearoa Douglas, Goff, Prebble, Lange, and Shearer. It’s about time it gave the rest of the country something worth having.

      • karol 4.4.1
        15 December 2013 at 7:17 am

        Hmmmm. Agree on the need for a better left candidate for Auckland.

        But you left out Clark, Cunliffe, Minto, Sue Bradford…. the first that come to mind as Aucklanders in politics.

        And possible MPs for the future, Louisa Wall, Julie Ann Genter.

  5. North 5
    14 December 2013 at 10:52 am

    I’m now impatient with and disrespectful of Len Brown’s quick resort to “mea culpa…..BUT” as seen on Campbell Live last night.

    I’m feeling his doe-eyed mea culpa is but a device purposefully embraced though fleetingly owned. Passive-aggressive damage control which springs from a weird sense of indispensableness and entitlement. Concluded with semi-firey passion promising a valiant march forward.

    “I am Len The Selfless. I have a vision. I am exceptional. I understand like no other. I am your champion. You need me. I will save you from the loss of me !”

    Self-delusion and lust for power too much like ShonKey and Banks for my liking. Very disappointing.

    • karol 5.1
      14 December 2013 at 10:57 am

      I did think Brown was struggling to defend his position re accepting gifts/hotel rooms. Was on the back foot.

    • Foreign Waka 5.2
      14 December 2013 at 11:43 am

      You need to look at the wider tactics of all parties concerned. I am sure most of us don’t know what is going on behind closed doors. I for one don’t like it when a person is haunted and bullied as we see in this case.

    • Treetop 5.3
      14 December 2013 at 1:46 pm

      I reckon that Auckland Council have got their act together when it comes to sorting out the rail link and that Brown is taking all the credit. Brown’s ego is me, me, me.

    • Murray Olsen 5.4
      14 December 2013 at 10:51 pm

      True, North. It’s the same attitude I see with Clinton and Obama. They think we need them because the other guy is unthinkable. He is, but we don’t need their condescending messianic rubbish.

  6. Colonial Viper 6
    14 December 2013 at 10:53 am

    Uh, hard to keep a secret affair secret if you declare gifts of hotel rooms 😈

    • lprent 6.1
      14 December 2013 at 11:16 am

      Most weren’t for playtime. Most were for work related stuff. It is a frigging long way to drive to deep in the south of Auckland after drinking at a function, and then getting up and going back into town for a breakfast.

      And apparently his wife was booking most of the hotel rooms.

      I’ve been known to check into a hotel near the airport if I have had a early flight. Just the wakeup (I sleep through alarms) makes it worth it.

      • tinfoilhat 6.1.1
        14 December 2013 at 11:48 am

        Oh what rubbish it’s 20 minutes down the motorway maximum and on top of that he has a car and a driver or a taxi to take him, alternatively he could have stayed with his daughter in Remmers …….the man is a serial liar and fraud and is hopelessly compromised.

        • karol 6.1.1.1
          14 December 2013 at 6:01 pm

          Brown should have declared the rooms etc.

          But, on Campbell Live Brown did say his wife and family stayed at a city hotel as a kind of holiday – I guess because of room service and all. And I think his wife was pretty sick at the time.

        • lprent 6.1.1.2
          14 December 2013 at 6:29 pm

          20 odd years ago, when I was working in Manakau city and living in Ponsonby, it used to take me 25-30 minutes when the traffic was clear.

          If there was any traffic, it’d quickly increase to closer to 40 minutes.. The road has improved a bit, but only in terms of capacity.

          I gather he lives past Manakau and away from the motorway.

          But it does mean that a trip in the morning would be closer to an hour than 20 minutes. Call it a round trip time of 70-90 minutes. Yeah, I’d crash somewhere local.

          Crash on your kids? When it is part of your job? Yeah right

          So you’re talking blatant crap.

          • tinfoilhat 6.1.1.2.1
            14 December 2013 at 7:55 pm

            And you’re a pathetic apologist for a corrupt mayor.

            • lprent 6.1.1.2.1.1
              15 December 2013 at 11:56 pm

              Nope. Just pointing out some basic facts to a fool who doesn’t check them.

              If you are going to deal with the real world, then I’d suggest curbing your rich fantasy life. If I was Brown’s PR people, then I’d take simplistic and outright stupid remarks like yours and spin those. Doing so could obscure the actual issues.

              On the agenda for Monday is the question of Len Brown’s taking undeclared gifts from SkyCity at the same time as he was taking part in the decisions that led to the convention centre decision. That is the important question

              The way that mindless fools like yourself can concentrate on trivialities that can only help him I find irritating. I’d prefer to concentrate on factors in the governance of my city that may make a difference.

        • greywarbler 6.1.1.3
          14 December 2013 at 9:18 pm

          So he’s a serial liar. Sounds like it takes one to know one time.

      • dv 6.1.2
        14 December 2013 at 11:52 am

        >>And apparently his wife was booking most of the hotel rooms.

        Just a point, would he have known the rooms were upgrades?

      • Huginn 6.1.3
        14 December 2013 at 5:42 pm

        Glad he wasn’t driving. Excellent idea for him to stay over – the room rate would have been discounted and probably cheaper than a return taxi.
        I doubt very much that free, discounted or upgraded hotel rooms would have determined Len Brown’s position on Sky City’s casino.

        But I do think that these things need to be accounted for and I wonder whether there was a process for that.

  7. Chris 7
    14 December 2013 at 11:08 am

    Personally I don’t understand all the fuss.

    He has committed no crime.

    Certainly he should have listed his Hotel upgrades and freebees but as CV pointed out his secret affair wouldn’t have been a secret and it doesn’t even come close to behaviour other prominent people in NZ.

    Len Brown owes no explanation to anyone other than his wife and children.

    Time for people to get their sticky beaks out of the sexual antics of others.

    Build a bridge 🙂

    • grumpy 7.1
      14 December 2013 at 11:18 am

      Just imagine……Sky City needs Len’s support to push through the pokie deal, facing opposition from the Auckland Council. Sky has been gifting Len free rooms and upgrades for him to entertain “among others”, the lovely Bevan.
      Sky would have room service details and other information right down to CCTV footage.
      Nothing needs to be said, Sky would never be that crass……..don’t need to.

      • Frank Macskasy 7.1.1
        14 December 2013 at 11:29 am

        Grumpy, what you’re hinting at would be a step too far even for a corporate that is neck deep in vice.

        If it ever became public knowledge that Skycity attempted to mis-use such knowledge, that would be the end of their licence in in new Zealand (and probably in other jurisdictions).

        • Ad 7.1.1.1
          14 December 2013 at 11:55 am

          Plenty of stories like it across New Zealand corporate life.

        • grumpy 7.1.1.2
          14 December 2013 at 12:27 pm

          The fact is they don’t have to “use” it. They know what’s going on and Len knows they know. That is enough for them to have his support.
          The only thing I would sack him for is stupidity – the same crime as Richard Worth.

      • Sacha 7.1.2
        14 December 2013 at 12:12 pm

        “Sky has been gifting Len free rooms and upgrades for him to entertain “among others”, the lovely Bevan.”

        The report says the last half of your sentence is rubbish, Grumpy. And as for the rest of your over-fertile imaginings..

        • grumpy 7.1.2.1
          14 December 2013 at 12:28 pm

          The word is (and Lens refused to rule it out in the first Campbell interview), that there are others.

          • Sacha 7.1.2.1.1
            14 December 2013 at 12:49 pm

            The whole of your sentence after the word ‘upgrades’, to be clear.

            Feel free to tell us where the report says that the rooms at Sky were used by anyone other than the Mayor and his family. I’m unimpressed enough by that connection but it doesn’t need to be embellished.

            • grumpy 7.1.2.1.1.1
              14 December 2013 at 1:43 pm

              Seems Len has kept a fair bit back.
              Who was the personal friend that MFAT got grumpy about in Hong Kong – not the undeclared trip, the one before?
              Why did he not rule out other women on Campbell?
              Did he give up “privacy rights” for the EY report into his hotel stays If not why not?
              Guys shagging around outside marriage are normally serial. If he took one to a hotel, he certainly took others.
              Rumour has it that at least 4 more are known.
              As I said earlier, the expenses are minor, the rooting is a private matter but the “North” crime of sheer political stupidity should be fatal for his political career.

              • Sacha …
                14 December 2013 at 1:50 pm

                So you admit you’re making shit up then. Good we’re clear on that.

                If you want to accuse people and organisations of corruption you’ll need more than hearsay.

                • grumpy …
                  14 December 2013 at 2:05 pm

                  I look forward to you maintaining your charitable attitude to those who may be accused of something but not yet proven…..such as John Banks….oh, wait…..

                  So, no more premature comments from Sacha then?

                  • Sacha …
                    14 December 2013 at 2:13 pm

                    Plenty of evidence already about what Banks has done.

                    • grumpy …
                      14 December 2013 at 2:16 pm

                      Allegations and supposition only. Don’t your new found principles extend to innocent until guilty?

                    • Sacha …
                      14 December 2013 at 2:23 pm

                      He has admitted enough facts himself without any need to rely on what you’ve heard at the pub. And I’m not making allegations like you did above.

                    • grumpy …
                      14 December 2013 at 3:16 pm

                      Yes you are. You are happy to excuse a lefty politician failing to declare gifts which he admitted….but rush to condemn a righty who denies accepting undeclared donations and has not been convicted by any court or enquiry.
                      Makes you a hypocrite.

                    • Sacha …
                      14 December 2013 at 3:22 pm

                      “You are happy to excuse a lefty politician failing to declare gifts which he admitted”

                      You can have your own opinions, dude, but not your own facts. Back that allegation up with some links or admit you’re bullshitting everyone here.

      • phillip ure 7.1.3
        15 December 2013 at 1:55 pm

        @ grumpy..i agree..the influences did not need to be spoken of..

        ..all the players knew which way browns’ dick was pointing..

        ..and why..

        ..they/sky ‘owned’ him…

        ..i thought that from day one..and said so @ whoar..

        ..this all has an overpowering stench about it..

        ..and not all of that overpowering-odour is coming from browns’ grunds’..

        ..phillip ure..

  8. captain hook 8
    14 December 2013 at 11:34 am

    leave Len alone.
    He is just another pollitician doing what politicians have always done and always will.
    why else do you do this sort of job.
    the main point is that as as they say he has “cojones” and the quibbling, cavilling little pipsqueaks with too tight underpants need a good poke in the eye every now and again to rmeind them that there are real people in the wolrd and not everyone is a carboard cut out.

    • Arfamo 8.1
      14 December 2013 at 11:39 am

      Still, if yer missus can’t trust ya to stick to your promises, how can anyone else?

      • weka 8.1.1
        14 December 2013 at 12:00 pm

        Mistrust isn’t transitive.

        • Arfamo 8.1.1.1
          14 December 2013 at 12:51 pm

          Dunno. Depends whether succumbing to temptation is a repeating characteristic.

          • weka 8.1.1.1.1
            14 December 2013 at 1:56 pm

            Is your assessment of Brown that he is a serial temptation succumber? Got evidence of that? He could well be, but my point was that having an extra-marital affair doesn’t automatically make one an oath-breaker in the rest of one’s life (which is what I thought you were implying).

            • grumpy 8.1.1.1.1.1
              14 December 2013 at 2:14 pm

              …there is a pattern emerging though…..
              Misuse of credit card at Manukau. Now he does not trust himself with an ACC card.
              Sense of entitlement such that he just “forgets” about free hotel rooms etc. etc.
              Thinks Council chambers and cultural meeting rooms are fine for a bit of nooky.
              ….plenty more….
              Looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, walks like a duck…..I think it’s a duck!

            • Arfamo 8.1.1.1.1.2
              14 December 2013 at 4:40 pm

              Perhaps you’re right weka. Maybe I’m expecting higher standards of personal morality of those in public office than I do for the ordinary population & that’s unrealistic and unfair. Plenty of people these days do the dirty on their spouses and partners. I’m thinking I’ve been around long enough now and have seen so much erosion of societal values and New Zealand’s egalitarianism I’ve developed a deep seated distrust of politicians generally because I think they embody what’s wrong.

              • weka …
                14 December 2013 at 4:52 pm

                I suppose it depends on whether you think cheating in a marriage makes one a bad person. It sounds like you do. I tend to the view that people get married and stay together for all sorts of reasons, and that lifelong monogamy is a social construct for a large number of people. One that they’re unlikely to live up to, but we all live in this myth that they should. Doesn’t make them bad necessarily when they don’t.

                As for politicians, I think it’s a shit of a job, esp the further up the ladder you get. Being corrupted seems like a job requirement to me, and the really good people get out before that happens. But it’s our system as much as theirs, and our expectations that require that corruption. We don’t like it, but we’re not willing to give up the privileges that go with it.

                I agree with you about the loss of societal values but see politicians reflecting that as much as creating it. They do hold a special responsibility though, because they have so much power. I don’t know where Len Brown fits into all that.

                • Arfamo …
                  14 December 2013 at 4:57 pm

                  I suppose it depends on whether you think cheating in a marriage makes one a bad person. It sounds like you do.

                  No, I don’t, unless it’s persistent and one-sided, in which case I would ask why the hell they chose to marry and make promises they don’t intend to keep, and I think in that case they’re an arsehole. But that’s neither here nor there really.

                  Re politics, the reason I’ve never considered it is I think in the end you end up having to sell your soul somewhere along the way unless you get out. And if you get out and onto a board of directors, you’re probably soul-less by then.

                  • grumpy …
                    14 December 2013 at 6:42 pm

                    Not the first time either. He cheated on his first wife too. He appears a serial cheater.
                    Slater has also dropped several strong hints about some physical abuse in his first marriage too – I suppose some here think that’s OK too. Seems no legal action from Len on that either……

                    • RedLogix …
                      15 December 2013 at 12:00 am

                      One way or another it is rare for humans to be totally monogamous with just one partner all their life.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      15 December 2013 at 12:14 am

                      Oh FFS grumpy “serial cheater”? I reckon that puts Browny in with about 250,000 other married bods in NZ.

                      As for quoting Slater what the fuck are you thinking?

                    • weka …
                      15 December 2013 at 12:14 am

                      “Slater has also dropped several strong hints about some physical abuse in his first marriage too – I suppose some here think that’s OK too.”

                      No, I don’t think it’s ok for Slater to be dropping such hints. Nor do I think it’s ok to gossip here about whether someone used to hit their wife. And I have no idea why you would want to take Slater’s word as meaning anything useful at all.

                      That you think people here would think domestic abuse is ok is just plain daft.

                    • weka …
                      15 December 2013 at 12:15 am

                      “One way or another it is rare for humans to be totally monogamous with just one partner all their life.”

                      Which leaves quite a dilemma doesn’t it.

                    • karol …
                      15 December 2013 at 7:20 am

                      Slater throwing stones from his already cracked, glass house?

                    • grumpy …
                      15 December 2013 at 9:31 am

                      I would have thought that if it was bullshit, Slater would be in court by now…………

                    • felix …
                      15 December 2013 at 10:01 am

                      Who cares what Slater thinks? It’ll just be something he’s been paid to say.

                    • Rodel …
                      16 December 2013 at 8:22 am

                      Grumpy
                      Hey, even Fox News wouldn’t quote Slater as a source …or would they?

                  • weka …
                    15 December 2013 at 12:11 am

                    “No, I don’t, unless it’s persistent and one-sided, in which case I would ask why the hell they chose to marry and make promises they don’t intend to keep, and I think in that case they’re an arsehole. But that’s neither here nor there really.”

                    Maybe it is here and there though. Because many people seem to think that Brown’s sex life and relationship with his wife is relevant to his job as Mayor. I don’t really get that.

                    People change. Maybe when someone got married they believed the monogamy myth, and then 10 years down the track realised it wasn’t actually possible for them. They still love their spouse, and their kids, and think that leaving would do a lot of harm for no good reason. So they stay and get some of their needs met outside the marriage. That’s all feasible, as is your implied example of someone who is just an arsehole and keeps making promises they will never keep.

                    I don’t care what Brown gets up to, not least because in order to judge him on his sexual behaviour and morality, we would have to know a whole bunch of detail, and really, who wants that? (and WO’s bullshit doesn’t count). Is Brown a good guy or a bad guy or something in between. I suggest we look at what kind of Mayor he is. How he has responded to the past few months will show much about his character too.

                    • Arfamo …
                      15 December 2013 at 12:18 am

                      He’s not my mayor so I don’t really care. But if he was I wouldn’t vote for him next time round as after reading the E&Y report I think he’s dishonest (not talking about his bonking adventures) and suffering from one percenter syndrome.

                    • weka …
                      15 December 2013 at 1:08 am

                      ok, fair enough, thanks.

                • phillip ure …
                  15 December 2013 at 2:02 pm

                  i couldn’t care less about his home/personal life/marriage..

                  ..it is that sky ‘knew’..and could have leaked/blown the whistle on him at any time..

                  and sky gave him money/cash..(15 grand..?..from memory..?..)

                  ..and after campaigning for mayor opposing the pokie-deal..

                  ..he u-turned on all those promises/sincere-words..

                  ..and supported their stinking pokie-deal..

                  ..how much larger does it need to be writ..?

                  ..he has to go..

                  ..phillip ure..

  9. North 9
    14 December 2013 at 11:35 am

    The earlier thing re affair etc is not the reason I’m getting impatient with and disrespectful of Brown.

    It’s that he’s accepted special treatment. And when he had the chance to completely negate any prospect of corruption by taking the insurance of disclosure……..he didn’t disclose. That begs a question even if ultimately there is nothing to the question. Not good enough. Let’s us all down.

  10. Foreign Waka 10
    14 December 2013 at 11:38 am

    I am always suspicious when a witch hunt such as the one for Mr Brown is instigated. It is extraordinary to have issues of far greater importance, such as oil drilling off the NZ coast ushered by (news wise) and all head lines and lights are on this issue. As far as I am concerned I am asking myself as to the aim of this and who would be the winner if Mr Brown is forced to step down.It certainly is not the public, that’s for sure. I really do hope he will hold his own and does not give in to that mob that seems to has now congregated. Here is also a study subject of how bullying is perpetrated and accepted by the wider community.

    • tinfoilhat 10.1
      14 December 2013 at 11:50 am

      Are you serious, or is this a parody comment ?

      • Foreign Waka 10.1.1
        15 December 2013 at 8:30 am

        Yes, I am – when will people in NZ learn to play the ball and not the men? How childish and unproductive. Mr Brown’s private life is no one else’s business, I belief his wife will make him pay for the rest of his life. As for the Hotel “upgrades” – this is being offered to all and sundry politicians and VIP’s generally and no doubt has been taken up by the same number. And yet Mr Brown is singled out.
        It’s NZ own little soap opera and the media is feeding this – is there really no serious issue that needs attending? Like 250 000 children who like a bit more food at Christmas?

    • grumpy 10.2
      14 December 2013 at 12:31 pm

      If Len has to step down, his support will transfer to another left candidate such as Goff. All you get is replacing one leftie Mayor with no credibility with another with a bit more.

  11. captain hook 11
    14 December 2013 at 12:19 pm

    Weka
    +1
    too erudite for the lowlifes that troll around here.

  12. infused 12
    14 December 2013 at 1:30 pm

    whoops, wrong thread.

  13. Tracey 13
    14 December 2013 at 3:48 pm

    People who lie to their wives are often dishonest in other things. So it is with brown.

    cv said it doesnt matter about his personal life. It does when, according to cvs logic, it prevented him declaring gifts.

    too many people in leadership positions who arent leaders.

    • weka 13.1
      14 December 2013 at 4:26 pm

      “People who lie to their wives are often dishonest in other things.”

      I’d like to see some evidence for that. And percentages. Because otherwise it just looks like imposing morality.

      “it prevented him declaring gifts.”

      Are you sure about that? I thought only one of the hotel gifts was related to the affair.

  14. Rogue Trooper 14
    14 December 2013 at 4:49 pm

    very unfortunate, an allegedly left-leaning mayor of our largest metropolitan region coming unzipped.

  15. Tracey 15
    14 December 2013 at 4:54 pm

    Weka

    if none of the undeclared was related to the affair it proves my point. He lied to his wife about an affair and also lied about free nights. A lie by ommission.

    yes I have values and I am entitled to demand some from my leaders. Your idea that leaders are a morality free zone is churlish

    • weka 15.1
      14 December 2013 at 11:58 pm

      I never said that our leaders are a morality-free zone. Where did you get that from? I just don’t think that failure of morality in one area automatically means failure in all. I ask you again for some proof that people who cheat in their marriages are inherently dishonest in the rest of their lives. You made the generalisation, and want to apply your morals to the situation, so why not back it up?

  16. Tracey 16
    14 December 2013 at 4:57 pm

    “Banks lied and continues to lie about it. Brown has been upfront immediately”

    rubbish. Brown wld still be lying about his relationship and not declaring the gifts. It took a threat and an audit to reveal both.

    By all means say that leaders lying doesnt bother you. That is your choice.

  17. grumpy 17
    14 December 2013 at 6:43 pm

    So, does the security guard fired for rooting on the job get reinstated, or don’t the champions of the workers on these pages give a stuff about that?

    • tinfoilhat 17.1
      14 December 2013 at 7:59 pm

      The stench of hypocrisy from this site is overpowering at times.

      • grumpy 17.1.1
        14 December 2013 at 9:33 pm

        Only from some. To be fair many are just as affronted by Brown as fair minded righties are.

    • Arfamo 17.2
      14 December 2013 at 8:56 pm

      Haven’t really paid that much attention to Len’s indiscretions as Auckland always seems to have whacko mayors and I don’t live there. But I’ve just finished reading the E&Y report and some of the background news articles since his affair “conducted during council business hours” came to light.

      Can’t help thinking any council employee lower down the food chain who racked up this little lot of indiscretions would probably have been sacked.

  18. SPC 18
    14 December 2013 at 8:28 pm

    Banks is staying until the next election, those expecting Brown to resign or be pushed should be asking the PM why Banks is still in parliament.

    • grumpy 18.1
      14 December 2013 at 9:32 pm

      So if you don’t want Brown to go, it’s OK for Banksie to stay then? After all Banksie hasn’t admitted to undeclared gifts, protests his innocence, has not been subject to an independent investigation and still is waiting for his day in court where he is confident of being vindicated.
      Compare to principled behaviour of the left and right here!

      • Arfamo 18.1.1
        14 December 2013 at 9:42 pm

        E&Y have done their investigation and reported back. Personally I reckon Len should be sacked, censured with a warning letter on his file and actively supervised for several months or demoted but it doesn’t seem that he’s broken any laws so not much one can do about it. An electronic bracelet on his whatsit mightn’t be a bad idea but he’d need to discuss that with his missus.

        Banks’s investigation is going to be completed and decided by a Court. So until the Court rules he hasn’t been confirmed to have broken any laws either so not much one can do about it. As he won’t be standing again, one might get the impression he doesn’t expect to be vindicated, but we’ll see.

  19. Tanz 19
    14 December 2013 at 9:44 pm

    at last, someone on the left with a sense of right and wrong. Len is on borrowed time.

    • RedLogix 19.1
      14 December 2013 at 10:33 pm

      If I asked you about the intimate details of your sex life Tanz and you refused to answer – would that also be ‘lying’?

      • infused 19.1.1
        14 December 2013 at 11:48 pm

        Still trying to make excuses huh?

        • RedLogix 19.1.1.1
          14 December 2013 at 11:54 pm

          So you’re about to tell us your real name and all the details of your sex life with us infused? You know, all those dark things you haven’t ever told anyone else?

          What’s your excuse? (Or do you think this question is intrusive and crosses boundaries?)

      • Tanz 19.1.2
        15 December 2013 at 10:58 pm

        I am more concerned about Len’s spending spree than his sex life. Also, he is a public figure, whom the public trusted in. So, it’s ok for our leaders to be amoral is it, as long as they are on the left?

        Rates have gone through the roof under Len’s watch, and he has been partying and spending public money on public time.

  20. Colonial Viper 20
    14 December 2013 at 11:26 pm

    At least the Right Wing have the loyalty and common sense to back their good politicians to get the job done, even if a mea culpa and some rehabilitation is called for, when SHTF.

  21. adam 21
    15 December 2013 at 12:20 am

    Have you all forgotten Penny Hulse? Who gives a rats about Len the lemon, Len the duck of lame.

  22. Tracey 22
    15 December 2013 at 8:01 am

    weka

    you say all politicians lie. I say people who cheat on their wives lie in other parts of their lives. You say I have to post proof. My proof is borne out by your statement. I agree some politicians lie. Unlike cv I dont accept it has to be that way and the means justify the ends. I have also slammed banks and key for their behaviour and following e and y report I put brown in the same group. As I do the labour politicians in skys rugby box. I live in hope that if enough people give up this crappy football fan attitude to politics and vote out those who fall below a standard the message might start to get thru. As long as people decry behaviour when the opposing team does it but excuse it when their team does it we all get what those voters deserve. This is why I continue to vote green.

    • RedLogix 22.1
      15 December 2013 at 8:40 am

      Tell us Tracey all about your sex life then. So as we can judge whether or not you are lying to us right now….

      (It’s a rhetorical question BTW – and the fact such a question should not be answered should give you all the information you need.)

    • Foreign Waka 22.2
      15 December 2013 at 8:49 am

      These comments sound like as they came from a righteous closed mined person.
      I am not making a moral judgement on Mr Brown, it is not my place. However, I am not inclined to judge and call the inquisition before all the facts are known. So far we have a lot of Media innuendo and some facts. Most of these relate to Mr Browns private life and by God if we start to snoop in every bodies life than we truly have the Orwellian Society that is so liked by the right. The Hotel upgrades are curtsey offers that are being provided to all VIPS. I am sure all who have paid through the public purse have taken advantage of this “freebee”. I am also certain so would you.
      One has to wait until all facts are known before jumping to conclusions and as for heralding politicians, I never do.

  23. Fair Observer 23
    15 December 2013 at 8:03 am

    All he had in mind was one thing: Asian pussy.
    Resign Mr Brown. Resign now.

    • Foreign Waka 23.1
      15 December 2013 at 8:51 am

      Because all of Auckland belongs to the church of the righteous? Are we in a movie?

    • karol 23.2
      15 December 2013 at 8:56 am

      A “fair observer” who uses racist and sexist insults.

      The problem is undeclared spending & not Brown’s sex life.

      • fappity 23.2.1
        15 December 2013 at 9:15 am

        Oh come off it Karol what should FO have said ?

        “Len brown spent too much of his time contemplating the debasement of occidental female genitalia ?”

      • Sanctuary 23.2.2
        15 December 2013 at 9:54 am

        “Asian pussy” may not be in particularly good taste, but it is hardly something you won’t hear in any average discussion of the mayor’s taste in shagging partners.

        One of the early attractions of socialism was the way it offered an alternative to the stultifying sexual morality of religion and the middle class. My mother was as working class as they come, but she took great delight in earthy, vulgar language that told it like it is. Don’t you find it rather ironic that on the same day you make a post on whither goes the working class you then get all middle class prissy and prudish at some commonly used vulgar vernacular?

        • just saying 23.2.2.1
          15 December 2013 at 10:14 am

          The phrase is racist and misogynist, not earthy and vulgar imo.
          Racism and sexism are not emblematic of the working class, and I think it is significant that the only working class voices we seem to be allowed to hear in the media are those belittling and dividing us.

          • Sanctuary 23.2.2.1.1
            15 December 2013 at 10:29 am

            Right, because you are an oracle who knows unequivocally what the monolithic “working class” (whoever they are) think. All I can say is you must live under “Get Smarts” cone of silence if you haven’t heard all sorts of ribald office speculation on these matters. And anyway, what is sexist and racist about it?

            The word pussy as a term for female genitalia is so widespread as to have been the hilarious source of comedic double entendre since time immemorial, so I would say you must have grown up in a particularly stern monastery if you didn’t know that.

            And last time I looked, Bevan Chaung is an Asian.

          • RedLogix 23.2.2.1.2
            15 December 2013 at 10:42 am

            You know that’s become the problem with discussing anything at all about gender relationships. It doesn’t really matter what you say – in any group of people it will be variously evaluated as intelligent, authentic, smart-arse, sleazy, inappropriate, sexist, or misogynist.

            I just wish we’d all hold back a bit on the constant judging of each other and the holding of other people to standards we’d likely fail to meet ourselves. No perfect people anywhere …and by holding that in mind it’s harder for us to be divided against each other.

          • Colonial Viper 23.2.2.1.3
            15 December 2013 at 11:07 am

            The phrase is racist and misogynist, not earthy and vulgar imo.

            How dare you. You bloody well apologise for what you’re saying about Sanctuary’s Mum 😛

            This basically is what the Left has been reduced to. Word police and thought police. Academic jargon and intellectualised abstractions. Which is why so many on the Left look down on the actual working class as uncouth redneck, uneducated, and bigotted.

            When in fact they built this entire nation.

            And we wonder why they don’t vote for us any more?

            • Arfamo 23.2.2.1.3.1
              15 December 2013 at 11:19 am

              +1

            • weka 23.2.2.1.3.2
              15 December 2013 at 12:15 pm

              I think js’ point is being missed here (and karol’s). It’s not the two words that are the problem, nor is it vulgarity that is the problem*. It’s that in the original statement Bevan Chuang was reduced to the shape of her genitals and the projection of sexuality that is stereotypically associated with her ethnicity. That is out and out sexist and racist (irrespective of what the commenter actually intended). Feminists have been pointing this shit out for quite some time, including Asian feminists on being on the end of non-Asian men’s fantasies and how that impacts on them. Why is it that the political analyses of women on the left are still being dismissed ?

              *if you think vulgarity is an issue, I suggest you reacquaint yourselves with QoT’s work.

              “This basically is what the Left has been reduced to. Word police and thought police. Academic jargon and intellectualised abstractions. Which is why so many on the Left look down on the actual working class as uncouth redneck, uneducated, and bigotted.”

              I think this reflects much about the kinds of people on the left that you associate with. Myself, I find a broad spectrum of views within the left and within the working classes. I notice you are pushing the meme that the left are anti-working class, and that the working class are all Waitakere Man entitled to their sexist, racist views, and have to wonder if this is an issue of the Labour party rather than the left (and I agree, the Labour party does have some significant issues here).

              • RedLogix …
                15 December 2013 at 12:41 pm

                I do get what you mean weka. Using the phrase “Asian pussy” is not something I’d say myself – and largely for the same reasons you outline. As a white-male hetro-sexual I’m quite well aware of the need not to project my should remain private fantasies on other people.

                Nor do I propose to speak for Sanctuary’s Mum. Many women I have met turned out to be great deal more ‘earthy and dirty’ minded (especially after a nice ‘socialist chardonnay’ or two) than they normally let on.

                Gender and sexuality issues have layers upon layers of nuance and complexity for everyone. I’m just proposing we be a little more gentle with each other on this.

                • weka …
                  15 December 2013 at 1:44 pm

                  “Gender and sexuality issues have layers upon layers of nuance and complexity for everyone. I’m just proposing we be a little more gentle with each other on this.”

                  Fair enough RL, but the problem here for feminists is that this has been going on for a very long time now, and it needs to stop (dismissal of left wing women’s political analyses). You can probably understand why we are so blunt in our approach. Being nice hasn’t worked. I’ll also note the irony of being asked to be more kind on ts of all places, where nastiness within a political point is well within the ground rules. Then I’ll point out that neither karol nor js said anything nasty, they just pointed out the politics of the situation. When that, the politics of the situation, can be acknowledged as valid, then we might find some common ground eh?

                  • RedLogix …
                    15 December 2013 at 2:24 pm

                    The middle class is where effective change happens. All the important social reforms take place when the middle class accepts and adopts them.

                    The reactionary strategy is to marginalise. They’ve done this over and over with feminism, the poor, immigrants, homosexuals. Once marginalised they can be safely ignored as curio objects in a cultural ghetto.

                    I read my Marilyn French as an impressionable young lad and the story remained vivid (yes the raunchy bits too). There was one very poignant moment when Mira begs her husband for some money to help her friend and captured in that moment was a striking lesson for this middle class young man.

                    But somewhere along the way feminism got shuffled off into a ghetto. It stopped being ‘nice’ and nice is an important value to the middle-classes.

                    I’d suggest that’s why it’s been all these years and it’s still not ‘working’. Common ground much needed.

                    • weka …
                      15 December 2013 at 3:11 pm

                      Feminism hasn’t been ghetto-ised so much as parts of it have been allowed into the mainstream and parts have been ostracised. Feminism ‘works’ and has been extraordinarily successful when you look at the odds and what it is up against (and the length of time it’s been operating). A large part of this is cultural, both from Maori women and from the European descendants of pioneer women. We are fortunate that this is built into the culture, so that even many conservative women who would never use the term ‘feminist’ still have feminist views.

                    • RedLogix …
                      15 December 2013 at 3:43 pm

                      Yes that makes sense.

                      And my partner often makes it clear to me just how much worse the position of women was just a generation ago, in terms of sexual harassment and how men held all the advantages in a relationship. For her it is clear those things have improved a lot.

                      Maybe the parts of feminism that were ‘let in’ to the mainstream where those that promoted women into the workforce and improved economic opportunity.

                      But the parts of feminism that have been ostracised seem to have been those that would have disadvantaged the dominant economic capitalist model; the parts that might have re-shaped family and community life into a kinder, less grasping form.

                      Maybe that’s where CV is coming from. Just thinking …

                    • weka …
                      15 December 2013 at 7:36 pm

                      Well yes, that is what CV thinks as far as I can tell. Myself, I think his analysis is limited and possibly self-serving. It’s based on excluding the voices of Maori, other non-white people, women, queers, people with disabilities etc. When someone can present the analysis and show how when the economic revolution is won it will have included the concerns of those groups of people, I’ll take it a bit more seriously.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      15 December 2013 at 7:47 pm

                      It’s based on excluding the voices of Maori, other non-white people, women, queers, people with disabilities etc.

                      Fine, you go ask them if they want to be able to put good food on the table, pay the utility bills without pain, and be confident that their children will have access to decent paying jobs where they will be safe and where their rights are respected.

                      I already know the answer however.

                      Of course, my focus on economic justice doesn’t stop you from addressing various issues of identity politics. Knock yourself out.

                    • weka …
                      15 December 2013 at 8:18 pm

                      I’ll ask them that if you’ll ask them if they see those things as separate from decolonisation. Or if they also want to be free from gender violence. Etc

                      Then ask them if they are ok with having enough food but not emancipation.

                      “Of course, my focus on economic justice doesn’t stop you from addressing various issues of identity politics. Knock yourself out.”

                      Except in these conversations you actively criticise what you call identity politics, so in a way you do try and stop that. This will be even more true as you gain more power within Labour.

                      You still haven’t provided an analysis of how economic revolution will meet the needs of all peoples. I’ll assume now that your analysis says it doesn’t, and that you are ok with address poverty even if that means other injustices continue.

                    • Rogue Trooper …
                      15 December 2013 at 8:28 pm

                      +1 Red.

              • QoT …
                15 December 2013 at 12:44 pm

                Some links (in plaintext because the a href tags keep fucking up on me):

                What is sexual objectification?
                http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/03/23/faq-what-is-sexual-objectification/

                How is sexual objectification harmful?
                http://msmagazine.com/blog/2012/07/06/sexual-objectification-part-2-the-harm/
                http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/07/06/sexual-objectification-part-2-the-harm/
                http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/presence-mind/201306/the-harm-in-treating-ourselves-and-others-sexual-objects

                How does Orientalism and objectification specifically harm Asian women?
                http://thewireless.co.nz/themes/home/not-a-geisha-nor-a-geek
                http://www.racialicious.com/2013/08/02/friday-wtf-asian-girlz-pisses-folks-off-and-rightfully-so/

                When people feel free to write Bevan Chuang off as “Asian pussy”, it’s not fucking rocket science to wonder why she had to be bullied into coming forward.

                And a final thought: plenty of Solid Working Class Strugglers are women. Or people of colour. Or have disabilities. Or are gay, lesbian, bi, genderqueer, trans.

                It’s a complete fucking lie that Labour has lost votes because it Pandered Too Much To Them Damn Bitches And Queers. A lie perpetuated by leftwing dudes who don’t want to cop to the fact that Labour sold out on those working-class principles a hell of a long time ago.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  15 December 2013 at 1:11 pm

                  It’s a complete fucking lie that Labour has lost votes because it Pandered Too Much To Them Damn Bitches And Queers. A lie perpetuated by leftwing dudes who don’t want to cop to the fact that Labour sold out on those working-class principles a hell of a long time ago.

                  Stay blind to the inconvenient reality, if you wish, but here is a little bit of it poking through the gaps in your world view:

                  “Labour’s controversial policy to increase female representation in the Parliamentary Labour Party appears to have driven men away from Labour and across to National in large numbers over the past fortnight. Driving the increase in support for National was a large jump in support by men, who this week deserted Labour. New Zealand men now clearly favour National (50.5%, up 10%) over Labour (29%, down 5.5%) while female support was down for both of the major parties – National (41%, down 2.5%) and Labour (35%, down 2%).

                  By the way: despite the big swing to National by men, note that women were unimpressed with Labour as well. I think that’s what is called a “no win, lose-lose” scenario.

                  http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/5299-new-zealand-voting-intention-november-14-201311140325

                • Rogue Trooper …
                  15 December 2013 at 1:21 pm

                  coincidentally maybe.

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    15 December 2013 at 4:50 pm

                    Actually, not quite coincidental.

                    Giving up on the working class and on the goals of economic justice and income equality was the disease; making progress on identity politics was the anaesthetic salve.

                    Corporate capital is the most difficult power in our current system to oppose. Proponents of corporate capital don’t give a damn about gay marriage. They do however give a great big damn about increasing income inequality and diverting even more income share their way.

                • weka …
                  15 December 2013 at 1:44 pm

                  Thanks QoT!

                • lprent …
                  15 December 2013 at 2:41 pm

                  The most common reason for URL problems are usually odd quote characters at the end of the URL.

              • Colonial Viper …
                15 December 2013 at 1:02 pm

                I notice you are pushing the meme that the left are anti-working class, and that the working class are all Waitakere Man entitled to their sexist, racist views

                So let’s get into this then, because your assumptions about why you are entitled to judge and label other people but why they are not entitled to label and judge you back is very interesting to me. Do you feel that your views are morally superior? That your values are the correct ones and that naturally entitles you to make pronouncements over others and the actions that are permissible?

                The ‘Left’ in political power has given up on the working class. That’s not a question, it is a fact, that fight has been and gone and it’s lost. Karol’s post above make that very clear. Not only given up on the working class as a people, but given up on the most basic fundamentals of value to the working class. A 40 hour week with penalty rates for overtime? Out of bounds. Not even seriously raised or discussed by the political left.

                and have to wonder if this is an issue of the Labour party rather than the left (and I agree, the Labour party does have some significant issues here).

                What Left? Labour is a capitalist party which has embodied strong neoliberal drivers.

                As for the issues: Labour walked from the working class and the issues of economic justice which impacts them, not the other way around. That’s the only “issue” which really matters.

                It’s that in the original statement Bevan Chuang was reduced to the shape of her genitals and the projection of sexuality that is stereotypically associated with her ethnicity.

                Two words “Asian pussy” captures more meaning than you can put in a paragraph. Turns out that direct authentic earthy working class language does convey a lot of meaning very efficiently.

                • Rogue Trooper …
                  15 December 2013 at 1:25 pm

                  ae, the vernacular veritas : Bum. Nuts Bollocks.

                • RedLogix …
                  15 December 2013 at 1:40 pm

                  So let’s get into this then, because your assumptions about why you are entitled to judge and label other people but why they are not entitled to label and judge you back is very interesting to me. Do you feel that your views are morally superior?

                  Abstract value systems have concrete outcomes and consequences – and these can be compared and judged as superior or inferior.

                  QoT re-states in her characteristically ‘un-gentle’ style (light irony intended) that objectification of other people is a very bad thing. No matter who is doing it to who. (Plenty of women for instance who treat men as ‘wallet objects’.)

                  An interesting read about gender that supports my long-held belief that the differences between men and women are mostly cultural. So it’s not unreasonable to be challenging cultural beliefs.

                  Still you are right at another level CV; one person can say the words “Asian pussy” and it’s loaded with demeaning objectification and another might utter the same words yet convey a rather different meaning.

                  One of the least helpful habits of modern thinking is the common but really rather weird insistence that if something doesn’t belong all the way to one side of a distinction, it must go all the way to the other side.

                  JMG http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com.au/2013/11/toward-green-future-part-three.html

                  • Rogue Trooper …
                    15 December 2013 at 1:53 pm

                    yes that polarization of distinction was an aspect of the general polarization that was apparent to me taking a closer look at the prevailing narratives, particularly on the net,( I had already tolerated enough talk-back radioese in other environments). I was immediately concerned that Values had spun around and flung out the window over a couple or three decades, as we know, following the Washington Consensus and the dissemination of neo-liberal economics, Roger Douglas Thought and Ruthenasia. Working away, on self, I had been sheltered from the effects these currents were having on many, although they were very apparent on my forays into parts of South Auckland; it really can be described as Third World in some sections. Very sad. Yet, Police 10-7 think it’s one of the best filming locations in the Southern hemisphere . 😀

                  • weka …
                    15 December 2013 at 2:33 pm

                    “Still you are right at another level CV; one person can say the words “Asian pussy” and it’s loaded with demeaning objectification and another might utter the same words yet convey a rather different meaning.”

                    Where did he say that?

                    • RedLogix …
                      15 December 2013 at 2:58 pm

                      No CV didn’t say that directly. I took it as implicit in his thinking.

                      CV can speak for himself, but I’d vouch he’d hate the use of the phrase in it’s demeaning context as much as you.

                      Often words have one literal meaning, but when loaded with other symbolic contexts, humour, irony, affection they can take on another. It’s like trying to explain a joke – no amount of analytic dissection will unwrap the chortle inside.

                      I agree with CV at this point- lecturing usually only works on captive audiences and the working class voters are not our captives. Sometimes the best you can hope for is simply to set a good example.

                    • weka …
                      15 December 2013 at 3:09 pm

                      The term WAS used in a demeaning way in this thread.

                      I’m not lecturing the working classes, I’m having a conversation with left wing political men who should be getting it by now.

                    • Rogue Trooper …
                      15 December 2013 at 3:17 pm

                      if shoulds were woods, we’d have solved Climate Change.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      15 December 2013 at 4:39 pm

                      RL thanks for the reminder about the modern predilection for ‘binary thinking.’

                • just saying …
                  15 December 2013 at 1:44 pm

                  Two words “Asian pussy” captures more meaning than you can put in a paragraph. Turns out that direct authentic earthy working class language does convey a lot of meaning very efficiently.

                  okay What do those two words convey better than a whole paragraph? Take as many paragraphs as you like.

                  And what is “authentically working class” about the phrase?

                • weka …
                  15 December 2013 at 2:31 pm

                  So let’s get into this then, because your assumptions about why you are entitled to judge and label other people but why they are not entitled to label and judge you back is very interesting to me. Do you feel that your views are morally superior? That your values are the correct ones and that naturally entitles you to make pronouncements over others and the actions that are permissible?

                  Morally superior? Where did you even get that from? I do think that my gender analysis is more grounded and holistic than yours. The rest of what you ask doesn’t make any sense to me. You have some issue about how I present my arguments that I don’t really understand, so am going to have to leave that one with you.

                  The ‘Left’ in political power has given up on the working class.

                  Yes. Now I would like you to find ONE, SINGLE comment of mine that suggests that I disagree with that. Why are even arguing that with me? It suggests that you really do not understand what I am saying. Can you please just stop and check out with me instead of ascribing something to me that just isn’t true?

                  As for the issues: Labour walked from the working class and the issues of economic justice which impacts them, not the other way around. That’s the only “issue” which really matters.

                  Yes, and as a Labour member I can see that that is central for you. But the left is much bigger than Labour.

                  Two words “Asian pussy” captures more meaning than you can put in a paragraph. Turns out that direct authentic earthy working class language does convey a lot of meaning very efficiently.

                  Again, this really suggests you are not listening to what I said. I don’t have a problem with ‘working class’ earthy language, or anyone’s earthy language. It’s how it is used. I have working class friends who use the word ‘cunt’ as a general expletive, which took my middle class ear a while to acclimitise to, but it doesn’t offend me and it certainly doesn’t make me question the politics of the people using it. On the other hand, I know other people who use the word ‘cunt’ as a highly gendered derogatory comment that creates problems for women all the time. That I call bullshit on. If you can’t tell the difference, that suggests a limitation in your political understanding of gender, and power in general.

                  It’s funny you want to create a division between my politics and those of working class people, and somehow make my politics less because of that. Working class friends who I currently have contact with are highly politicised on the left and get what I am talking about, although we might disagree on the details. But I used to live in a very conservative white community and spent a lot of time around working class people, mostly men, who are most likely swing voters. My experience of them was that they would use lots of coarse language, but when it came down to it, they had a great deal of respect for the women in the room. Maybe I just hang out with a better class of redneck than you.

                  They might use the term ‘asian pussy’ to refer to Chuang amongst themselves, and they might even use it in front of women they know, but when those women suggest that it’s not respectful there is generally some kind of acknowledgement. In fact, when I’ve been in those situations or witnessed them, often there are men who seem a bit surprised and they stop to think about what’s just been pointed out to them, because they might not have seen that perspective before. But their focus is on the people in the room and generally there is an assertion of respect for the women in the room. I consider myself lucky to have been in that community, as I know there are other places where the disrespect for women is genuine and worse.

                  What I don’t get is why here on ts, today, respect isn’t at the forefront. Irrespective of the politics, would you really argue in RL to women that it’s ok to refer to a woman as “Asian pussy”? While I disagree with the emphasis that you place on economics as a silver bullet solution, I still can’t see anything about your political analysis of class economics that means requires “Asian pussy” to be an acceptable term.

                  I still don’t see you understanding that the issue is about reducing a woman to her genitals and perceived sexual availability, rather than being about language. QoT’s comment covers this.

                  • RedLogix …
                    15 December 2013 at 3:09 pm

                    Irrespective of the politics, would you really argue in RL to women that it’s ok to refer to a woman as “Asian pussy”?

                    As I have already said – no I would not. It’s not something I would say. For exactly the reasons you outline.

                    So there is our common ground.

                    I still can’t see anything about your political analysis of class economics that means requires “Asian pussy” to be an acceptable term.

                    But I think that’s that darkest farside of the distinction you could conjure up. And into that gap they park sodding great wedges.

                    • weka …
                      15 December 2013 at 3:12 pm

                      I was asking CV directly about using arguing for the use of the term in front of women, but yep, thanks, good to know there are some men here who wouldn’t.

                      “But I think that’s that darkest farside of the distinction you could conjure up. And into that gap they park sodding great wedges.”

                      Sorry, I don’t follow that at all, can you please rephrase?

                    • RedLogix …
                      15 December 2013 at 3:29 pm

                      I didn’t see anyone here, certainly not me or CV arguing that it should be an ‘acceptable’ term. But neither does that make it all the way ‘unacceptable’ in binary fashion.

                      It’s a bit like the work fuck. It’s usually not acceptable in most contexts, it’s bad taste, and people who overuse it get looked at sideways.

                      Yet almost everyone uses it sometimes. (And coming all over prissy when they do is usually less than helpful because you get painted as the problem.. )

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      15 December 2013 at 3:51 pm

                      To be clear weka I have never ever used the term “Asian pussy” and I never ever would, in front of either men or women. That may be because I am Chinese though so I guess to me it’s just “pussy” 😈

                    • weka …
                      15 December 2013 at 4:29 pm

                      Yes, I’m sure it is. By all means tell me how often you refer to other women as available pussy in front of women you know in RL. I’d really like to know.

                    • weka …
                      15 December 2013 at 5:04 pm


                      I didn’t see anyone here, certainly not me or CV arguing that it should be an ‘acceptable’ term. But neither does that make it all the way ‘unacceptable’ in binary fashion.

                      It’s a bit like the work fuck. It’s usually not acceptable in most contexts, it’s bad taste, and people who overuse it get looked at sideways.

                      Yet almost everyone uses it sometimes. (And coming all over prissy when they do is usually less than helpful because you get painted as the problem.. )

                      Looks pretty clear to me that there have been repeated arguments made in this thread that people have a right to use the term ‘Asian pussy’ when referring to a woman, without being called on it. If that isn’t a definition of acceptable I don’t know what is.

                      Re the word fuck, I think you are still confusing prissiness about language, with sexism. You do get that prissiness isn’t the issue for me, right?

                    • RedLogix …
                      15 December 2013 at 5:38 pm

                      I don’t have a problem with ‘working class’ earthy language, or anyone’s earthy language. It’s how it is used. I have working class friends who use the word ‘cunt’ as a general expletive, which took my middle class ear a while to acclimitise to, but it doesn’t offend me and it certainly doesn’t make me question the politics of the people using it. On the other hand, I know other people who use the word ‘cunt’ as a highly gendered derogatory comment that creates problems for women all the time. That I call bullshit on. If you can’t tell the difference, that suggests a limitation in your political understanding of gender, and power in general.

                      As far as I can see I’ve merely been arguing something very similar to your own words above.

                      Some contexts you can let it pass; some not.

                    • weka …
                      15 December 2013 at 7:30 pm

                      Yes, but you still seem to be missing the point of sexually objectifying women by terms like “Asian pussy” as was used there. And to be honest, I’m struggling to think of a way you could use that term in public in NZ that wouldn’t be derogatory. CV seems to think that it’s useful shorthand for things like stereotypes of non-Asian men’s relationship with younger Asian women, but that leaves out the effect on Asian women of using such terms. Or any women of referring to them by their cunts and general availability for fucking. That’s what Karol, js and I responded to. The original post makes a political point by rendering a human being down to male perceptions of her genitals and what those males think they are for. In the context of this sexist and misogynistic society it’s dehumanising, and the only way to get that is to listen to what women say about it.

                      I suggest that all the people in this thread ask at least five separate women in their lives what they think about refering to Chuang as Asian pussy in the way that was done here and then report back.

                    • Rogue Trooper …
                      15 December 2013 at 8:48 pm

                      Interestingly, after over 20 years around heavy-vehicle tradesmen, I do agree with weka’s observation that language used at work, in particular, is modified in the company of females and children, generally, (hopefully); self-censor-ship is required at times. Reflecting, the verbal articulations at reluctant heavy components were often of a ‘gendered’ nature though, (or religious obviously, 😀 ) along the lines of (inner bearings of a set of dual hubs, wheels and tyres won’t slide off the axle, meaning you’ll have to strip down to the hubs) – “Get out of there you fucken tight cunt-bitch of a thing, Jesus Fucking Christ”. More so than encouragement employing disparagement of other social catogories.
                      Although, “Asian piece of shit” is quite common.

                  • Arfamo …
                    15 December 2013 at 3:38 pm

                    Amazing. I look at the topic of the post and then this side-road and wonder how the hell anyone can get so blinkeredly sidetracked by something so completely off topic.

                • just saying …
                  15 December 2013 at 4:39 pm

                  You going to answer my questions CV?

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    15 December 2013 at 5:56 pm

                    Not really going to write a treatise on it, save to say that the words communicate only a fraction of the meaning that is conveyed by the conversational tone, context and the intended audience. Not to mention reference to the endemic western cultural meme of the older, richer, more powerful white man with a younger relatively powerless Asian woman. (Somewhat or exactly, like colonialism, you might say?) And of course, the emotional impact of the moment of perception of the words. And boy, those two short words have had some impact.

                    As I said; two damn short, damn efficient words with a lot of meaning packed in.

                    And what is “authentically working class” about the phrase?

                    The phrase is not “authentically working class”; not tip toeing with PC boots around what is bloody obvious to everyone, is.

                    • karol …
                      15 December 2013 at 7:48 pm

                      So much happened while I was at work today.

                      only a fraction of the meaning that is conveyed by the conversational tone, context and the intended audience.

                      So I’m not part of the intended audience? Talking over my head?

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      15 December 2013 at 8:07 pm

                      Reminds me of the West Wing scene where Sam Seabourne said that Ainsley Hayes looked so hot that “she’d make a good dog break his leash” and got pulled up by the feminist temp staffer.

                    • weka …
                      15 December 2013 at 8:20 pm

                      That you don’t get the difference between that and what happened here today says it all.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      15 December 2013 at 8:28 pm

                      I don’t feel a need to buy into the values and narrative that people want to project on to me. And whilst I always listen, I also don’t feel a need to apologise for that. So although it may “say it all” to you, that’s not my narrative and I’m not going to own it.

                    • just saying …
                      15 December 2013 at 8:30 pm

                      And you are happy for real women to be talked about using this phrase – that is the woman getting the derogatory slur not the “colonist”.

                      You’re a real working class hero CV.

                      (The rest of that sentence was deleted because it was abusive – see it can be done)

                    • weka …
                      15 December 2013 at 8:39 pm

                      Do you even know what I was talking about? How can you not own something if you don’t know what it is? I agree, you are quite good at listening. It’s the lack of engagement in dialogue that seems agin your stated broader aims.

                      So, where we got to today: someone can use a term that others find repressive, and when they bring a critique to the table there is an argument instead of a discussion.

                    • Arfamo …
                      15 December 2013 at 9:31 pm

                      Too many sour pusses here. Build a bridge. Someone used the term asian pussy. He was denigrating Len and her. Some blokes talk like that. Take it up with the user and stop haranguing everyone else.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      16 December 2013 at 12:36 am

                      And you are happy for real women to be talked about using this phrase – that is the woman getting the derogatory slur not the “colonist”.

                      js, I’ve been quite clear that I have never used the phrase and I never would.

                      I’d also, in most circumstances, not be the language or PC police in a group of people if the phrase popped up, unless there was a very specific reason to be.

              • Rogue Trooper …
                15 December 2013 at 1:17 pm

                and Asian men’s fantasies; huge pornography demand of the most unusual practices.

                -A simple home-cooked recipe from Edmund, for any form of quick-raising rebellion, suppress the real ingredients.

  24. Tracey 24
    15 December 2013 at 11:42 am

    Redlogix. Your statement to me defies logic. My point is not that I want to know or need to know about browns sex life. Would his non declaration of free gifts including from sky city have been audited in any event? The sky deal for pokies stinks. He supports it. He got a free night or so and hid it. Banks didnt read a form he signed. Both have the potential to look like vested interest. In leaders perception is as important as reality. Your and weka can attack my view on some mistaken pat bartlett basis all you like. That doesnt make your pronouncement on me or my comments true.

    • RedLogix 24.1
      15 December 2013 at 11:56 am

      Sorry for reading what you wrote then:

      I say people who cheat on their wives lie in other parts of their lives.

      If you want to judge people by whether they ‘cheat on their partners’ or not (and I’d maintain that’s an equal opportunity occupation) then I’m not going to quibble with your values. But if you’re going to insist on Len Brown being transparent about his sex life … is it ok that I insist you be transparent about yours? Fair’s fair.

      But it seems to me that indeed you were interested in Len Brown’s sex life … and now suddenly you are not.

      Would his non declaration of free gifts including from sky city have been audited in any event?

      Again something that should be evaluated in the context of normal practise. From what I’m reading these kinds of upgrades are pretty normal (it’s really just a form of marketing or loyalty reward scheme) across a wide range of businesses.

      I agree that there is a line that should not be crossed. The key question has to be, did SkyCity offer these upgrades to the Mayor with a specific expectation that there would be a quid pro quo – or was it just part of their normal operations?

      • Tracey 24.1.1
        16 December 2013 at 6:19 am

        and that he didnt declare over $35000 of gifts?

        Perhaps i should have put it this way. *I* was not surprised to read that Brown lacked integrity or was dishonest in his professional life (not declaring over $35,000 in gifts) given he had lived and covered up a significant part of his life from his wife for a couple of years. It takes a certain type of person to live a long lie, fabricate the necessary lies that flow frm the first lie, secrecy etc required to keep it from someone who knows them very well. in *my* experience (which i wrote as “I say” to indicate my opinion) people who do this rarely have absolute integrity in their worklives.

        You disagree, which is your choice. You call it normal practice to get upgrades, which it may well be, so why not declare them?

        I am well aware of the tactics used to “out” Brown and I find Slater and his ilk sleazy and reprehensible. i won’t, however, have one set of views for when “my” team doe sit, and another for when the opposition does it.

        It’s never been about sex per se to me redlogix, it’s about the tendency to lie, coverup and the lack of associated integrity. As for my sex life which you rhetorically asked me about. I have been in a same-sex relationship with the same person for over 22 years. I am well aware that there are folks who abhor that. I have not had sex with another partner in that time. NOR have I been elected to represent a million ratepayers (mayor) or represent an electorate. It is when you CHOOSE to represent others that your behaviour indeed matters and is subject to extra scrutiny.

        Paradoxically if you have had an affair on your partner then you get auditted in Auckland city, so how many former mayors and other elected reps have been not declaring things?

  25. yabby 25
    16 December 2013 at 10:22 am

    The man is now a joke.

    On top of his unaccountability to the ratepayer, his commercially compromised stance on SKY CITY and the embarrassment and shame he brings to Auckland, the man is far too fiscally incompetent to have the degree of power he does.

    If your wife handles your cheque book and you made the decision to rip up your credit cards because you were fiscally innumerate, why should we let him loose on a multi billion economy!

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