War Begets War

75 comments on “War Begets War ”

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1. Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 1

   19 January 2015 at 10:00 am

   War begets war – agree.

   “Hate is not conquered by hate.
   “Hate is conquered by love.
   “This is the eternal rule.”
2. Ad 2

   19 January 2015 at 10:13 am

   On the one hand the writer of the article asks:
   “Can Swedish Christians be held accountable for the Ugandan Lord’s Rsidtance Army?”
   But on the other hand he concludes that the shootings of the Charlie journalists were caused by “collective feelings of hurt and humiliation.”

   Clearly the Muslim extremist shooters felt common accountability.

   The “collective feelings of humiliation” are what Osama Bin Laden wanted to inflict upon the US. Petty hard to expect rationality after that.
   • Psycho Milt 2.1

     19 January 2015 at 11:59 am

     Clearly the Muslim extremist shooters felt common accountability.

     Yes. Apologists for the shooters seem to accept the idea of collective responsibility when it comes to terrorists holding everybody in western democracies personally and directly accountable with their lives for the activities of individual criminals like the ones at Abu Ghraib, but are full of dire warnings against collective responsibility when it comes to outfits like PEGIDA holding (gasp) a protest march.
     • Colonial Rawshark 2.1.1

       19 January 2015 at 12:13 pm

       It’s not just a couple of one off criminal actions like that at Abu Ghraib prison. Or even Blackwater shooting up civilians around a Baghdad square.

       It is ongoing multiple official western actions like droning of civilians, like supplying munition resupplies to Israel as the IDF is killing Palestinian children, like financially and militarily supporting the most oppressive regimes in the world.

       Then there is the supplying of weapons and funds to “moderate” Syrian rebel groups and anti-Assad Muslim foreign fighters…some of whom turned out not to be so “moderate” and ended up creating ISIS.

       And of course, ISIS now has access to humvees, strykers and Abrams tanks, thanks to the USA leaving that equipment behind with the incompetent Iraqi army.
       • Ad 2.1.1.1

         19 January 2015 at 12:50 pm

         So, Colonial and Psycho, do you think the tendency towards war after any outrageous violation is going to get better, or worse?

         “War begets war” is a little trite. May as well do a George Clooney and ask “why can’t everyone just get along?”

         Sometimes anger and rage is an appropriate response to a violation. What I would want to get to pretty quickly here is:

         “What are the conditions for a just war in 2015?”
         • greywarshark 2.1.1.1.1

           19 January 2015 at 1:40 pm

           @ Ad
           I wonder if you are being the devil’s advocate or perhaps the devil?
           • Ad 2.1.1.1.1.1

             19 January 2015 at 2:02 pm

             Just shuffling the debate a little forward beyond minor moral cu-de-sacs.
         • tracey 2.1.1.1.2

           19 January 2015 at 1:49 pm

           you might like to read up on anger, otherism and empathy from a hard wiring point-of-view..
         • Psycho Milt 2.1.1.1.3

           19 January 2015 at 1:50 pm

           So, Colonial and Psycho, do you think the tendency towards war after any outrageous violation is going to get better, or worse?

           I tend to the view that, with the example of G. W. Bush’s egregious failures in front of them, western governments will be more reluctant to go down that path. But then, I also tend to be over-optimistic…

           “What are the conditions for a just war in 2015?”

           A UN mandate and an actual entity you can go to war with ought to be preconditions. Defeating terrorists requires police forces, not military.
           • Ad 2.1.1.1.3.1

             19 January 2015 at 2:01 pm

             Agree, and I’m with the optimists.

             UN mandate would be a start.
             They’ve gone a bit tits-up sometimes but are better than nothing.
         • Colonial Rawshark 2.1.1.1.4

           19 January 2015 at 5:59 pm

           So, Colonial and Psycho, do you think the tendency towards war after any outrageous violation is going to get better, or worse?

           The response to these incidents is no longer to start foreign conflicts. It is to further tighten controls and invasive mass surveillance on ordinary citizens at home.
       • Psycho Milt 2.1.1.2

         19 January 2015 at 1:42 pm

         It’s not just a couple of one off criminal actions like that at Abu Ghraib prison. Or even Blackwater shooting up civilians around a Baghdad square.

         It is ongoing multiple official western actions like droning of civilians, like supplying munition resupplies to Israel as the IDF is killing Palestinian children, like financially and militarily supporting the most oppressive regimes in the world.

         OK, then let’s consider “ongoing multiple official western actions.” Are shoppers in a kosher supermarket in Paris collectively accountable with their lives for the actions of the Israeli government? Are users of the London Underground collectively accountable with their lives for the actions of the British government? And as you keep making the argument that they are, how, by your logic, can the world’s Muslims not be collectively accountable with their lives for the actions of these terrorists?
         • Colonial Rawshark 2.1.1.2.1

           19 January 2015 at 2:10 pm

           What are you talking about? You talk as if Muslim civilians aren’t paying with their lives every week already, in the west’s self styled global war on terror.
           • Psycho Milt 2.1.1.2.1.1

             19 January 2015 at 2:20 pm

             But that’s OK, right? Because of “their” continued attacks on “us.” If you play that argument against one side, you have to allow it against the other side. By your own logic, individual Muslims are accountable with their lives for the actions of “their” terrorists against “us”, so it’s unsurprising they’re getting killed. Hell, “we” have the capacity to kill a lot more of “them” – shouldn’t you be prodding your local MP to know why “we” in the west aren’t showing a bit more gumption in revenging ourselves on the “them” accountable for these attacks?
             • Colonial Rawshark …

               19 January 2015 at 2:48 pm

               No idea what kind of sick game you are playing but I’m out.
               • Psycho Milt …

                 19 January 2015 at 3:02 pm

                 I’m just stating the implications of all your comments about these kinds of attacks being a natural consequence of “the west’s” attacks on Muslims. You’re implying a “collective responsibility” argument with those comments, and I’m in turn pointing out that collective responsibility cuts both ways. You may be offended by that point, but it’s a valid one.
                 • One Anonymous Bloke …

                   20 January 2015 at 1:56 pm

                   +1
             • Tom Jackson …

               19 January 2015 at 4:16 pm

               Voters in a democracy are collectively responsible for what their government does – they either voted for it or had the power to vote it out. By choosing to reside as adults in a democratic society, they as individuals accept that responsibility. After all, if they really object, they are free to leave.
               • Psycho Milt …

                 19 January 2015 at 4:58 pm

                 I guess there’s no point in trying to charge Blair or Bush with war crimes, then – imagine trying to imprison the entire populations of the UK and USA…

                 Which isn’t intended to be just a smartarse quip. The extent of collective responsibility for the actions of your country’s government isn’t unlimited – it certainly doesn’t extend to people annoyed at your government’s actions being allowed to kill you, which seems to be what Colonial Rawshark proposes.
                 • Tom Jackson …

                   19 January 2015 at 5:41 pm

                   Perhaps not. But it certainly doesn’t extend to a right to plead innocence.
     • tracey 2.1.2

       19 January 2015 at 1:48 pm

       applying your logic, how does it apply to Christianity and the Army of God in the USA?
       • Psycho Milt 2.1.2.1

         19 January 2015 at 1:53 pm

         Using my logic, collective responsibility is bullshit so the question doesn’t really come up.
         • Ad 2.1.2.1.1

           19 January 2015 at 2:03 pm

           You’re going to struggle with nation-states as an idea then.
           Nothing against anarchists, of course, except they can be a little hard to flat with.
3. vto 3

   19 January 2015 at 10:34 am

   If war begets war then how do we determine where the initial warmongering is, in order to stop the begetting?

   See who makes the most arms?
   See who does the most war?
   See who is in the most battles? Occupying the most countries?

   Who would that be? What should NZ’s response be to that nation?
4. George Hendry 4

   19 January 2015 at 10:43 am

   @ Ad 🙂 –

   “Can Swedish Christians be held accountable for the Ugandan Lord’s Rsidtance Army?”

   Anthony didn’t type that. Your hasty typing without proofreading, I’d say.

   I would also suggest less haste and more research before retailing the idea that only Osama Bin Laden (the one we are told we must believe in) wanted to inflict humiliation on the whole US. As with climate change, the 9/11 science is now in ( for overwhelming evidence, simply type in ‘9/11 truth’, ‘pilots for 9/11 truth,’ or ‘engineers for 9/11 truth’ ) and only remains debated due to an extremely well resourced disinformation campaign.
   • Ad 4.1

     19 January 2015 at 11:30 am

     Quote was from the linked article. Your lack of attention I’d say.

     Re 9:11: Micro conspiracies irrelevant to global narrative.

     Have a go at my actual points.
     • Colonial Rawshark 4.1.1

       19 January 2015 at 1:32 pm

       Re 9:11: Micro conspiracies irrelevant to global narrative.

       Not sure how you can say that as three major wars (incl iraq and afghanistan) were initiated using 9/11 as justification.The third war initiated being the so-called “global war on terror.”

       Seems fairly relevant to the global narrative.
       • Ad 4.1.1.1

         19 January 2015 at 2:04 pm

         Global narratives are important. Agreed. States drive and are driven by them.

         Conspiratorial alternatives to them: not so much.
5. Truth Will Out 5

   19 January 2015 at 10:43 am

   The answer is simple:

   Because the “war on terror” is a lie, and the mass confusion in societies about who is to blame for it is the result of people being unable to reconcile the ethical and moral dilemmas it creates, when an entire (massive) group of people are being blamed for the actions of a tiny handful of extremists, while profoundly selective morality ensures that the same destructive and violent behaviour demonstrated by individuals leading other groups and nations goes completely unchallenged.

   I repeat, the “war on terror” is a lie.

   It is being fought for intellectually and ideologically dishonest reasons.

   The public in most countries are flat-out being lied to by international bankers and their politicians about the real reasons why it is happening.

   The whole thing is being done with smoke and mirrors, leading to the ongoing ethical and moral dilemmas as mass confusion.

   The sooner those behind the scenes who are pulling all the strings and profiting from it all are exposed for the evil scumbags they are, the faster the world will know peace.

   History proves that the same financiers and their corporations financed virtually every side of World War 2.

   History is repeating itself because we haven’t learned from it.

   War is highly profitable.

   Land / territory / religion / patriotism are always the lies and excuses.

   But power and control over the masses, as well as profit, are ALWAYS the real motives.

   Wake……up…….people.
   • Ad 5.1

     19 January 2015 at 11:32 am

     If everyone woke up, would the shootings in Paris not have happened?
     • Truth Will Out 5.1.1

       19 January 2015 at 11:51 am

       @Ad

       If your parents had known how you would turn out, would they have chosen birth control?
       • Ad 5.1.1.1

         19 January 2015 at 12:44 pm

         You asked people to wake up. Wake up to what? What new reality have you offered?
         Answer your question.
         • Truth Will Out 5.1.1.1.1

           19 January 2015 at 1:48 pm

           @Ad

           I didn’t ask a question – you did.

           And it was a profoundly stupid, empty, rhetorical question at that, which was thoroughly deserving of the response it was given.
           • Ad 5.1.1.1.1.1

             19 January 2015 at 2:14 pm

             What was profoundly stupid was your original contribution, which was a series of vacuous arm-wavings, cliches and shouty rhetoric, like Stryper covering an AC/DC version of War What Is It Good For. Fact free ranting from a cliff top ranting moist-eyed teenager crying off a U2 song sheet, and easily datable to 1990 and the first Desert War.
             There’s a loss of truth in war? Really? People make money off it? Really? Astounding! There’s smoke and mirrors – oh – everywhere. And the US! And them Cor-porations! Oh power! Agony! It’s hurting – all this badness, all this badness everywhere. It’s just So Bad.
             Wait! There’s more power over there! And The Masses! They’re Eveywhere! All of them! Massing!
             And the power! There’s power everywhere! I can’t control it! And wait! There’s ethical dilemmas as well!
             Give me a break from your foppish, preening, vacuous weeping like some helpless little kitten in the unforgiving mouth of Bad Mr Reality.

             And then I woke up. It was all a dream! Oh thank god for that.
             • Truth Will Out …

               19 January 2015 at 3:27 pm

               @Ad

               If you believe the war on terror is so necessary why aren’t you on the front line now risking your own life?

               Your rant was so disturbing it reveals the need for psychiatric intervention, you are seriously scary.

               All it proved was that birth control would have been the sensible option in your parents’ case instead of inflicting you on the world like they did.

               Seriously, get some help, you are insane to the degree that I would suggest society needs protecting from you more than anyone else.
               • In Vino …

                 19 January 2015 at 8:47 pm

                 Strangely enough, I agree… When the Soviet Russia dissolved, I thought to myself: Who is the next deadly external enemy? USA had to have a new external enemy after World War 2, so Truman went to Congress with the avowed intention of scaring the pants off them… and we got the cold war. The US survives internally by having an external enemy, so yes, I am a little cynical about how this whole war on supposed terror (who would have thought that some cloaked terrorists could replace the entire super-power USSR? – yet they have) got generated in the first place, and about how it gets prolonged.

                 I will bet you one thing: Should we suddenly win the War on Terror, there will very soon be a whole new catastrophe, and a whole new dangerous enemy, semi-external at least.

                 A bit like Snowball in Animal Farm.
       • Murray Rawshark 5.1.1.2

         19 January 2015 at 11:44 pm

         That is a prick of a question. We can do without that sort of garbage.
6. Tom Jackson 6

   19 January 2015 at 10:57 am

   Some people and countries are so empty inside that they have to define themselves by what they are not. And so enemies become necessary and must be found or created.
   • In Vino 6.1

     19 January 2015 at 8:56 pm

     Absolutely right.
7. Colonial Rawshark 7

   19 January 2015 at 11:17 am

   Lack of political process means US airstrikes against ISIS are helping ISIS recruitment

   Tribal leaders who helped the US previously in 2007 and gained nothing with the Baghdad government now reluctant to help the US again.

   http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/18/lack-politial-process-iraq-renders-us-coalition-bombs-grave-mistake
   • Ad 7.1

     19 January 2015 at 11:39 am

     Similar dynamic to Wole Soyinka’s “A Season of Anomie” of a previous post -colonial era.
     • Pascals bookie 7.1.1

       19 January 2015 at 1:17 pm

       It’s how things pretty much always play out.

       -Terrorist event aimed at provoking a reaction.

       -Escalation of the conflict.

       -Propaganda war over who is really to blame for the conflict, if the terrorists can convince their people that terrorism was an understandable option given what ‘we’ are suffering, then they are winning. They don’t even need ‘approval’, just to be hated less than the ‘oppressor’.

       -If the terrorist group can endure long enough such that the state(s) can no longer maintain the conflict, they get a negotiated solution.
       • Ad 7.1.1.1

         19 January 2015 at 1:27 pm

         Precisely.

         What makes this dynamic somewhat harder is currently there is no single Islamic terrorist group to negotiate with. Not an impossible hurdle at all.

         It’s where some of the at-risk nation states can have a useful role in the next few years: enabling a bundling of fringe Islamic groups into coherence. Plenty have done it in decades past.

         Some prefer the fantasy of perpetual conflict because it fulfills ideological impulses. Most don’t.
   • dave brown 7.2

     19 January 2015 at 3:30 pm

     That makes sense, after 100 years of Sykes Picot the benefits of being an agent of imperialism doesnt guarantee a decent share of the booty.
     So if you’re going to get overthrown anyway why not follow the lead of Israel and take someone else’s land by force and set up a theocratic state.
     That way your agent’s fee becomes the landlords rent. And more than that you can ape your former Western masters and exploit the land, labour and valuable resources on your own account.
     Like the Algerian war, the terrorism of parcel bombs was always the poor persons
     answer to the terrorism of aerial bombs.
     But this was never the answer because without the armed masses in control the generals always sold out and went back on their masters payroll.
     The disproportion of aerial and parcel bombs is the recipe for ongoing mutual destruction.
     The international working class has to redress this balance by smashing the imperialist military machines at home and abroad.
     When the aerial bombs stop falling, the parcel bombs will also cease.
     Class war is the only just war.
     • In Vino 7.2.1

       19 January 2015 at 9:05 pm

       Yes, but too few have any sense of class, and the majority of those who do are oppressors.
     • A Voter 7.2.2

       19 January 2015 at 10:06 pm

       The west should leave the middle east alone to sort out its shit
       Israel should be cut off from western support and then it will have to deal on its own with its neighbours
       Its their problem to sort out if they are going to fight amongst themselves so be it
       What has the west got to offer another Vietnam mind their own business and let the middle east establish their own sovereignty
       how stupid of us not recognise the west’s intervention has always been a fuck up
       Leave it alone the fuckin oil will still be there when its all over
       And all the sanctimonious bullshit can stay with a collapse on Wall st for living off the basket case they created
       Its like the 67 war the outcome was in the middle east its not for us in the west to decide who stays in power its for them to decide
       Geo Bush was a cunt and Cheney as well how many years of trouble since
       Are we going to perpetuate a situation that is really none of our business
8. Psycho Milt 8

   19 January 2015 at 11:41 am

   Why does the media make Muslims feel accountable for anything carried out in the name of Islam, even by some deranged person?

   The Jerusalem Post is hardly “the media” and can be assumed to have an agenda when covering this kind of story. I haven’t noticed “the media” trying to make Muslims feel accountable for anything carried out in the name of Islam. Muslims aren’t accountable for terrorist attacks at all, except in the sense that they’re supporters of the same ideology as the terrorists. If you’re a Marxist, you’re not accountable for anything Sendero Luminoso or the CPSU got up to, but you might want to have a think about why your ideology turns out repressive, ruthless totalitarian regimes anywhere it gains a foothold.

   Islam is not just a religion, but a way of life.

   Well, yes, exactly. It’s a way of life fundamentally and utterly opposed to post-enlightenment western society, starting from its name “Submit” and working up from there all the way to predestination.

   By demonizing Islam, you demonize everything associated with it, including, of course, Muslims.

   What fucking demonising? If I think fascism and communism are hideous totalitarian ideologies and the people who adopt them must be seriously deluded, I haven’t demonised anybody. I’m happy to hang out with fascists and communists, because at the individual level of personal interaction, ideology counts for shit. Same with Muslims, the ones I’ve met have generally been OK blokes and blokesses.
   • Tom Jackson 8.1

     19 January 2015 at 4:20 pm

     Well, yes, exactly. It’s a way of life fundamentally and utterly opposed to post-enlightenment western society, starting from its name “Submit” and working up from there all the way to predestination.

     How so? The society we actually live in rests on the idea that everyone has some sort of right to believe in whatever mindless nonsense they want to (climate denial, anti vaxxer BS, libertarianism). It’s a bit rich for a society that has abolished truth in this way to start lecturing other people about being unreasonable…
     • Psycho Milt 8.1.1

       19 January 2015 at 4:56 pm

       What would be fundamentally opposed to a society that has “abolished truth,” as you put it? Well, one that mandated truth, for a start.
     • Colonial Rawshark 8.1.2

       19 January 2015 at 5:11 pm

       Again with the “anti-vaxxer” descrimination.

       What are you going to do, have the government routinely force people to accept medical procedures without their consent?

       Think about it.
       • The Murphey 8.1.2.1

         19 January 2015 at 11:54 pm

         Q. Do you believe there is much chance of thinking about it by those who make such statements ?

         Such statements are the antithesis of thought
         • Colonial Rawshark 8.1.2.1.1

           20 January 2015 at 12:32 am

           Not much to do with science or critical thinking at times; more to do with a moralistic belief on autopilot…after all, RESPONSIBLE parents ALWAYS vaccinate their kids, no valid questions can be asked…
           • The Murphey 8.1.2.1.1.1

             20 January 2015 at 12:44 am

             Despite the understood and accepted fraud and corruption of any and every industry sector for profit that could be named somehow the industry of science is free of fraudulent and corrupt activity

             Quite the blind spot in thought I would say
9. ropata:rorschach 9

   19 January 2015 at 1:20 pm

   Interesting Listener editorial this week: “Days of Shock“. It reminds us of some atrocities around the world crying out for intervention:

   Even in distant New Zealand, the argument that it’s not our fight starts to wear thin when the Pakistani Taliban is slaughtering schoolchildren, Boko Haram is on a murderous rampage in Nigeria and Islamic State jihadists are indulging in genocide in Iraq and Syria. Common humanity demands that when governments are incapable of defeating such malevolent forces on their own, other nations must do whatever they can to help.

   But then it admits that unilateral invasion is unlikely to work, where the conflicts are rooted in deep seated cultural problems

   There are no easy solutions. Arguments over freedom of speech and protest will never be satisfactorily resolved – although, as New Zealand forcefully stressed at the time of the fatal Rainbow Warrior attack, violence is never the right response.
   …
   In the absence of any greater clarity, perhaps the world should draw hope from small things – such as the bravery of Muslim supermarket employee Lassana Bathily, who shepherded Jewish customers to a room safe from the Paris gunman. One human being risking his life to save others of another religion, later saying, “We are all brothers. It’s not a question of Jews, Christians or Muslims.” That should be the enduring and uplifting memory from three days that shocked the world.
10. tracey 10

    19 January 2015 at 1:51 pm

    Orwell knew how to cut through the BS.

    “War against a foreign country only happens when the moneyed classes think they are going to profit from it”
    • ropata:rorschach 10.1

      19 January 2015 at 3:59 pm

      A couple more quotes:

      I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.
      – Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler (highest ranking & most decorated US Marine) 1935.

      The enemy aggressor is always pursuing a course of larceny, murder, rapine and barbarism. We are always moving forward with high mission, a destiny imposed by the Deity to regenerate our victims, while “incidentally” capturing their markets; to civilise savage and senile and paranoid peoples, while blundering “accidentally” into their oil wells.
      – John T. Flynn, conservative American author, 1944.
      • Pascals bookie 10.1.1

        19 January 2015 at 5:50 pm

        Here’s some on terrorism:

        “They turn young men into assassins. But what can one do… A Sect cannot be destroyed by cannonballs.” – Napoleon

        “We must spread our principles, not with words but with deeds, for this is the most popular, the most potent and the most irresistible form of propaganda” – Bukunin

        “One does not use a tank to catch field mice- a cat will do the job much better” – George Grivas-Doghenis, (a leader in the Cypriot nationalist EOKA)

        “Most revolutions are not caused by revolutionaries, but by the stupidity and brutality of the governments” – Sean MacStiofain (Provo IRA chief of staff)

        “Terrorism wins only if you respond to it in the way the terrorists want you to; which means that it’s fate is in your hands and not in theirs” – (Historian) David Fromkin

        “In order to get anywhere, you have to step over a lot of dead bodies” – Ilich Ramirez Sanchez (Carlos the Jackal)

        “Terrorists want a lot of people watching and a lot of people listening, not a lot of people dead” and “Terrorism is theater” – Brian Jenkins

        “Terrorism is not the work of madmen or devils, and to try to get to grips with it on those terms is to fight it with a very mistaken concept of who one’s enemies are and how and why they are supported.” – Andrew Silke (terrorism academic at University of East London)

        “Embracing the caricatures which often pass as explanations for the causes of terrorism facilitates only embracing the caricatures which pass for effective responses. Amid the carnage and rubble of atrocity, we must not allow ourselves the luxury of a simple and demonized foe. ” -Andrew Silke
      • tracey 10.1.2

        19 January 2015 at 6:32 pm

        Thanks for these additions… others say stuff so much better than me.
    • In Vino 10.2

      19 January 2015 at 9:06 pm

      +1
11. aerobubble 11

    19 January 2015 at 3:36 pm

    What possible reason…

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jan/19/global-wealth-oxfam-inequality-davos-economic-summit-switzerland
12. A Voter 12

    19 January 2015 at 5:38 pm

    It seems that historical justification for religious action is all too often sighted as reason and not an excuse or a perversion of the quite often complicated historical truth of how action taken now reflects to the past events which supposedly have led to the present outcomes
    That said the news media and govt departments directed by the governing party’s political policy boffins who sign this country up to the super powers by bypassing true democratic process in the house by ensuring that a conscience is of no value in deciding the overseas commitments of this country’s armed forces and diplomatic personnel but a process of tagging onto the US and Europe for economic stability and monetary favour that we supposedly need still
    The UN is sadly lacking in its ability to get the now great powers to make a firm commitment to world peace
    Nth Korea the islamic extremists ,the pirates of the worlds resources of which the whole of the worlds business community is responsible for and the powers of the US Europe China India Japan and UK to thwart most efforts made to control the madness that we accept as being progress .
    America still holds the worlds production to ransom by the power it has over copyright and patent of so much produced in other countries as does Europe and Britain . If you think not just look at fast foods and go from there
    We are small and insignificant country when looked at from overseas which democracy shows us by the govt we have, one that is like a sheep that will feel safe with its masters even up till it gets its throat cut
    So are we going to change or should our new flag just have a sheep on it
    • Colonial Rawshark 12.1

      19 January 2015 at 5:40 pm

      A sheep with its hind legs spread wide.
      • tricledrown 12.1.1

        19 January 2015 at 11:43 pm

        Don’t forget lost sheep.
        And what gumboots for.
        • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 12.1.1.1

          20 January 2015 at 1:20 pm

          Yeah, NZ’s false flag operation was presented in the UK at Chatham House:

          http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/nz-flag-change-matter-patriotism-john-key-6221160

          Please stop the taxpayer-funded distractions.
13. Colonial Rawshark 13

    19 January 2015 at 6:24 pm

    ISIS triples/quadruples territory in Syria since US airstrikes began

    What the hell…?

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-18/islamic-state-has-more-tripled-its-territory-syria-us-started-airstrikes
    • Clemgeopin 13.1

      19 January 2015 at 10:44 pm

      That is quite astounding!

      It says,
      “More than three months of U.S. airstrikes in Syria have failed to prevent Islamic State militants from expanding their control in that country, according to U.S. and independent assessments, raising new concerns about President Barack Obama’s military strategy in the Middle East.

      While U.S. bombing runs and missile strikes have put Islamic State forces on the defensive in Iraq, they haven’t had the same kind of impact in Syria. Instead, jihadist fighters have enlarged their hold in Syria!

      The advancement of ISIS is in SYRIA, not Iraq.

      I wonder if the US has a deliberate strategy here to put Assad on the back foot some more!
      • ropata:rorschach 13.1.1

        19 January 2015 at 11:15 pm

        @Clemgeopin: I wonder if the US has a deliberate strategy here

        Quite possibly:

        The chaos now enveloping the region might, in fact, be the desired aim of policy planners in Washington and Tel Aviv. One of the prime goals of every empire is to foment ongoing internecine conflict in the territories whose resources and/or strategic outposts they covet.
        • Clemgeopin 13.1.1.1

          19 January 2015 at 11:51 pm

          The link you gave is very interesting reading!
        • Colonial Rawshark 13.1.1.2

          19 January 2015 at 11:55 pm

          Assad going isolates Iran and Russia further. Pressure on the Russian economy and fomenting political disturbances in the Ukraine also serves to throw the Ruskies on the back foot. The US is not keen to see strong competitors emerge on the world stage.
          • ropata:rorschach 13.1.1.2.1

            20 January 2015 at 12:13 am

            Zerohedge can drop the odd clanger but their machiavellian interpretation of US foreign policy makes sense.
            • Colonial Rawshark 13.1.1.2.1.1

              20 January 2015 at 12:41 am

              I know nadis hates ZeroHedge, and sometimes there is some real neoliberal drivel, but some of their big picture stuff is really very good. And funny. Power, money and resources are to be taken seriously and they do, in their analysis.
14. newsense 14

    19 January 2015 at 6:27 pm

    Been trying to track down a clip of:

    Prince: Romeo slew Tybalt, he slew Mercutio
    Who now the price of his dear blood doth owe?
15. Clemgeopin 15

    19 January 2015 at 7:29 pm

    After reading this article, I listened to this song as it was playing in my mind:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwUGSYDKUxU

    “Imagine”

    Imagine there’s no heaven
    It’s easy if you try
    No hell below us
    Above us only sky
    Imagine all the people
    Living for today…

    Imagine there’s no countries
    It isn’t hard to do
    Nothing to kill or die for
    And no religion too
    Imagine all the people
    Living life in peace…

    You may say I’m a dreamer
    But I’m not the only one
    I hope someday you’ll join us
    And the world will be as one

    Imagine no possessions
    I wonder if you can
    No need for greed or hunger
    A brotherhood of man
    Imagine all the people
    Sharing all the world…

    You may say I’m a dreamer
    But I’m not the only one
    I hope someday you’ll join us
    And the world will live as one
    • ropata:rorschach 15.1

      19 January 2015 at 10:24 pm

      Forgive my cynicism, but sadly Lennon failed to imagine a world free of famines, pestilence and sociopaths spreading misery far and wide.

      The song could be a manifesto for communism, anarchism, or even liberal Christianity. I guess like all great art there’s a lot of scope for interpretation.
16. A Voter 16

    19 January 2015 at 9:09 pm

    yeah play that alot

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