What Now?

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1. Sabine 1

   24 May 2017 at 11:45 am

   i shall repost here another story from yesterday that was/is very little spoken about.

   A young guy kills two Neo Nazi roomates cause he converted to Islam. Yeah, that happened. During the Police follow up they disover that a thrid, surviving neo nazi room mate was having lots of stuff to make bombs and even some radio active materials floating about. OH Dear.

   where to from here? Maybe only if we ask ourselfs why killing is the more attractive option to some of our people? Why can some young people like the bomber in Manchester and the would be bombers in Miami Florida be more attracted to causing misery and pain.

   Maybe the hurt in them is so much that they don’t mind killing, it in fact is a relieve and all society, their families and the likes give them is pain. Call it retribution.

   But no matter what and how we go forward, what these to incidents show is that religion is not the foremost reason.

   http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/florida-keys/article151953257.html
   He had just returned from U.S. Army National Guard duty May 19 to discover that his roommate, Devon Arthurs, 18, murdered two people in the apartment they shared in in the Hamptons at Tampa Palms complex. Both deceased were found in the apartment by the Tampa Police Department with multiple gunshots to the upper body and head.

   Arthurs confessed to the killings and said the victims were also white supremacists, according to the arrest report.

   Arthurs told police he was a white supremacist until his recent conversion to Islam, according to the arrest affidavit. He said that in “some time” before the murders, Russell participated in no-Nazi online chat rooms where he “threatened to kill people and bomb infrastructure,” according to the FBI report.

   Inside Russell’s bedroom, they found a framed photograph of Timothy McVeigh, who was convicted and put to death for bombing the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995. They also found Nazi/white supremacist propaganda, according to the FBI complaint. While in his bedroom, devices used by police bomb technicians alerted to the presence of radiation sources — thorium and americium.

   Before asking for an attorney, Russel told FBI agents he was a “national socialist,” according to the complaint, and a member of a group called the “Atom Waffen,” or “atomic weapon” in German.

   He said the explosives were manufactured in 2013 for a rocket-making project he was working on for the engineering club at the University of South Florida to send balloons into the atmosphere. But FBI Agent Timothy Swanson wrote in his report that HMTD is “too energetic and volatile for these types of uses.”
2. roy cartland 2

   24 May 2017 at 11:48 am

   I thought it was interesting that one slogan for the Manchester solidarity is “we the many”. That’s the slogan UKLP is using for changing the type of politics and societal attitudes which have contributed to this mess.

   If people can realise that atomisation and predatory capitalism can be reversed through unity, it would be a starting point. The hurdle would be avoiding the label of ‘politicising’ the situation (as if it ever existed outside politics).
   • Carolyn_nth 2.1

     24 May 2017 at 1:08 pm

     “We are many” is actually taken from a pacifist poem by Shelley.

     “The Mask of Anarchy”

     “The Masque of Anarchy” (or “The Mask of Anarchy”) is a British political poem written in 1819 (see 1819 in poetry) by Percy Bysshe Shelley following the Peterloo Massacre of that year. In his call for freedom, it is perhaps the first modern statement of the principle of nonviolent resistance.

     Rise, like lions after slumber
     In unvanquishable number!
     Shake your chains to earth like dew
     Which in sleep had fallen on you:
     Ye are many—they are few!”[3]
     • Carolyn_nth 2.1.1

       24 May 2017 at 1:38 pm

       PS: The Peterloo massacre was in Manchester:

       The Peterloo Massacre occurred at St Peter’s Field, Manchester, England, on 16 August 1819, when cavalry charged into a crowd of 60,000–80,000 who had gathered to demand the reform of parliamentary representation.
3. One Two 3

   24 May 2017 at 11:58 am

   The core problem as I see it, is that the narratives are controlled (deliberately) to achieve (whichever) outcome is desired

   Can people ‘know’ what transpired leading up to (name the event), who was in fact responsible, and who ‘controlled/staged/managed’ the ‘event’

   The parameters are incredibly narrow for which the distracted public eye can draw conclusions from, that the ‘purpose’ of these events is ultimately not readily apparant

   Obfuscate and wage war by any means, are philosophies of both ‘good and bad’ entities…

   The Tavistock Institute may have some thoughts on the matter
4. shorts 4

   24 May 2017 at 12:46 pm

   the west kills hundreds/thousands/millions of innocents across a number of predominantly muslim countries – including children… and we do bugger all, hey its collateral damage

   A terrorist kills some westerners at a concert and we act like the world is ending

   at some point we’ve got to stop allowing out governments to slaughter with impunity

   please note I am not making excuses for the actions of the terrorists that target young people at a concert, but we can’t act like our young people should be immune
5. McFlock 5

   24 May 2017 at 12:57 pm

   Well, I seem to recall that many of the terrorists in the US or Europe were not the neocon wet dream of “refugee from Syria is secretly an AQ/ISIS plant” or whatever, but were actually 1st generation born in the country they made their attack in, or at least were very young when their parents made the decision to emigrate.

   Which tends to point to issues around how one connects with one’s roots and integrates with society, rather than ‘[insert here] is bad’.
   • Molly 5.1

     24 May 2017 at 1:37 pm

     “Which tends to point to issues around how one connects with one’s roots and integrates with society, rather than ‘[insert here] is bad’.”

     Agree. But it also points to the ability (or inability) of the surrounding society to accept and welcome them into everyday life and groups, given their personal history and beliefs.

     It also asks the question: Is there a place where these grievances can be legitimately heard and change made?

     As has been pointed out, there are incidents involving the sanitised term “collateral damage” happening all over the world, often perpetrated by our own allies. And if someone – with personal and familial links to those places – is living in a community where these incidents are not only not newsworthy, but surrounded by people who consider this to be necessary, you don’t have to go far to see the disconnect.

     Unfortunately, the most likely place to find outrage and calls for change are with those who promote division and further carnage – for their own selfish purposes.

     Our questions about why will never be comfortably answered, we should also be asking where other avenues for expressing distress existed. Given the level of political dysfunction in the UK, the failure of immigration policies and implementation to address the issues of new and old citizens, the loss of credible news media and intellectual public discourse on issues such as the Middle East and UK and US involvement, it is also reasonable to suggest we need to consider the question “Why Not?”.

     A further thought that occurred to me after reading a couple of the articles, that quite rightly singled out the emergency services for praise.

     Primarily, how different it would be to go forward to help in this situation as opposed to one with no intended casualties – such as a train wreck or civil emergency.

     To put themselves on the line, knowing that a 100% guarantee of safety cannot be given, is to witness the best of human courage.

     With also a nod to the courage of Chelsea Manning, who leaks showed the world that the US uses double-strike taps by it’s drones to eliminate those with similar courage who go into help after the first strike hits.

     These people hit the second time, cannot realistically be given any justification to be legitimate targets. They are most likely the best of that community and they too are killed. (Not to mention, the failings of the current system to identify legitimate targets even on the first strike).

     I despair at the deaths and injuries at Manchester Arena, and reflect again on how hard it is to construct and build, and so immediate and much easier it is to destroy and dismantle.

     How do you build a society where such a thought becomes less likely – both as military tactic and as a personal action? Because it is obvious – we aren’t there yet.
6. Adrian Thornton 6

   24 May 2017 at 1:07 pm

   Until foreign military and other forces are extracted from the middle East and North Africa, and these same countries also stop flooding the region with weapons, it would be very hard to see any solution to Islamic extremists, who, in their view, are at war with foreign invaders.

   I am no apologist for Saddam Hussein, but I think his quote here would probably find wide approval throughout the Middle East, and no doubt would also find agreement with many disenfranchised radicalized youth in the west today…

   “And just as your beautiful skyscrapers were destroyed and caused your grief, beautiful buildings and precious homes crumbled over their owners in Lebanon, Palestine, and Iraq by American weapons…. Americans should feel the pain they have inflicted on other peoples of the world, so as when they suffer, they will find the right solution and the right path.”

   The more pressure and tension an ideology is put under, the more entrenched and radical it will become..I think that much is plainly obvious.

   As far as what we can do, that in my view, has to start with our media treating the lives destroyed by bombs, terrorism and war in non western countries with the same degree of importance as the lives of someone from Manchester.
   When was the last time RNZ had half a dozen interviews with shocked and distraught survivors of a terrorist attack in The Middle East or North Africa?
   Should we feel less sympathy for those unnamed killed and maimed from other lands? should we believe that those lives have less value than those in Manchester? That, to me, would be the obvious inference I would take from the coverage assigned to this tragedy as opposed to the minimal coverage so many other terrorist atrocities get.
7. Gabby 7

   24 May 2017 at 1:08 pm

   Where to may depend on where the murderer learnt to make his bomb. His mental health history. Who else knew what he was up to.
8. Bill 8

   24 May 2017 at 1:08 pm

   Years ago, I had the suspicion that if I’d been brought up in N. Ireland and subjected to the daily humiliations imposed on Catholics by the British Army and N. Irish society in general, that I may well have picked up a gun in a rush of youthful hot headedness and heart felt righteousness.

   It crosses my mind today, that if I was a young Muslim man being subjected to all the stuff that’s imposed on people in numerous countries these days, then yeah, maybe.

   It also crosses my mind that young Muslim men in ‘white’ western countries being subjected to all manner of systemic bigotry and discrimination, don’t now need to simply nurse their wrath in isolation. Now they have a larger whole to identify with – one that, however twisted and misanthropic, provides a reason and a logic for committing really bad shit.

   Serves our masters rather well too – that understandable, though not excusable reaction.

   They get to be our ‘saviours’ in this big bad world that they ‘just happen’ to be instrumental architects of…this world increasingly built around things like fear, injustice, desperation and madness.
   • marty mars 8.1

     24 May 2017 at 1:21 pm

     Sorry but im calling bullshit.

     There are thousands of young Muslim men who don’t commit atrocities. There is a small subset of EVERY group who need very little if any provocation to kill.

     Blaming it on the yanks is also simplistic rubbish – too much Hollywood infection.
     • McFlock 8.1.1

       24 May 2017 at 1:32 pm

       well, I agree that the political side of “serves our masters rather well” is bunk.

       But thousands of young Irish kids never joined a paramilitary force. And thousands of suburban kids never committed a school shooting.

       I suspect the main ingredients are universal, it’s just the topping that differs: someone disaffected and socially alienated finds someone or something that reinforces negative impulses by encouraging a victim or persecution perception, and usually provides validation in the form of power and notoriety should the event take place.
       • Bill 8.1.1.1

         24 May 2017 at 1:36 pm

         You don’t see that creating an external threat serves to bolster domestic centres of authority? okay
         • McFlock 8.1.1.1.1

           24 May 2017 at 1:48 pm

           In general, I don’t see that any external threat needs to be created or gratefully accepted by the powers that be.

           Some instances have needed one to be generated in order to justify some significant social changes, e.g. the nazis or one or two suspicious bombings in Russia in the 1990s or the North koreans today.

           But in general I reckon that most governments in need of an external threat or security services in need of a fundraiser are probably well assured that the tragedy of the human condition ensures that one won’t be too far off. Because people are jerks.

           Indeed, I think that the convenient myth of various international threats is significant enough in reality to actually be a fact, which basically turns suggestions of these things being convenient for authority structures into arguments for the existence of those authority structures.

           edit: in short, “serves our masters rather well” could equally read “this is why we have security services”.
           • Bill 8.1.1.1.1.1

             24 May 2017 at 2:06 pm

             I didn’t say it needs to be created. I’m saying it is being created.

             So, y’know – apparently inexplicable terrorism justifying an erosion of rights and expansion of ‘a surveillance state’ over society.

             By your last line, do you mean that the existence of threats justifies the existence of “authority structures”, or that those threats can serve to undermine any such justification?

             Why is the threat there? What’s it in response to? Is the threat to those “authority structures” – where we may or may not be collateral damage – or to us. I’m not quite sure how you’re looking at it.
             • McFlock …

               24 May 2017 at 2:18 pm

               Even without those authority structures, the world is still full of massive dicks. These massive dicks require a collective response to minimise the impact of their massive dickishness.

               Unless you can come up with non-authoritarian substitutes for the police and security services, I say that the existence of those threats necessitates some manner of police and security service. Not merely “justifies”.
               • Bill …

                 24 May 2017 at 2:31 pm

                 So the question then becomes whether policing and security has to be, or can only be exercised by some form of concentrated power. Fair enough.
                 • McFlock …

                   24 May 2017 at 2:58 pm

                   pretty much, yeah
                   • Bill …

                     24 May 2017 at 4:24 pm

                     And of course we can.

                     Police and others aren’t some super-human species or whatever. The questions become those of possible operational structures and meaningful systems of accountability.

                     A conversation for another day perhaps?
                   • McFlock …

                     24 May 2017 at 4:40 pm

                     yeah, I’m definitely in the camp of watching the watchers.
             • One Two …

               24 May 2017 at 2:43 pm

               Some do not appear to have basic understanding that the increase in ‘terrorism’ events, is on a recent timeline. They see a chicken v egg situation for whatever reason, such as McFlock has stated “why we have security services”…

               Naively misguided to say the least

               20-30 years ago, ‘terrorism events’ were rare exceptions,

               The fault lies squarely with UK/US/Israel/France/Saudi, and those entities who control, and have the ‘power’ to ‘create’ two of thoses states, and the ‘power’ to inflict the violent damage upon the planet and its inhabitants using the constructs which the same ‘power’ controls

               ‘Power’ is what you can’t directly see. The results and consequences of ‘power’, are seen and felt by the plebians, who then obediently express in the wrong directions…
               • McFlock …

                 24 May 2017 at 3:27 pm

                 20-30 years ago, ‘terrorism events’ were rare exceptions

                 🙄
                 not in Europe (note that list only includes attacks with more than ten deaths) and the US, they weren’t.

                 They’re much more common globally now, yes – but mostly in countries that 20-30 years ago were active state-sponsored war zones (so explosions were still hardly rare exceptions) or dictatorships (so minimal terrorism because security services. Although shitty dictatorships.).
     • Bill 8.1.2

       24 May 2017 at 1:32 pm

       Who “blamed it on the yanks”?

       There were thousands of young Catholic men in N Ireland who didn’t commit acts of violence btw.

       Care to explain how the N. Ireland peace process worked out if your claim that “there is a small subset of EVERY group who need very little if any provocation to kill” is true?

       By that reasoning the peace process should have only have had a minimal impact.
       • marty mars 8.1.2.1

         24 May 2017 at 2:01 pm

         Adrian was going on about the yanks.

         I’m the one saying it is a small subset – you, on one hand agree and the next sentence attack that contention – wtf – that is a small subset of why your argumentative argument fails btw
         • Bill 8.1.2.1.1

           24 May 2017 at 2:12 pm

           You’re not making any sense whatsoever.

           If a small subset of any group need very little reason to kill, then how could a peace process anywhere ever bear fruit? By your stated reasoning, that small sub-set would carry on killing people regardless. (They need very little if any provocation to kill. according to you.)

           About what Adrian was saying. Reply tabs. You know all about reply tabs. Use them.
           • marty mars 8.1.2.1.1.1

             24 May 2017 at 2:26 pm

             ffs a small subset isn’t the big set. It isn’t that hard to follow unless you deliberately are trying to be a prick.
     • Tinfoilhat 8.1.3

       24 May 2017 at 1:35 pm

       Thanks for saving me the trouble MM.

       I also note that Bill saves his ‘headchopper’ terminology for his Syria argumentation the stench of hypocrisy and false sanctimony in his posts is becoming overwhelming.
       • Bill 8.1.3.1

         24 May 2017 at 1:38 pm

         That’s a nice rant. Any rationale on offer that might back up your assertions?
     • Ennui 8.1.4

       24 May 2017 at 2:20 pm

       So Marty this calling bullshit. Bill in each paragraph says “I might”…..why might he not? Obviously the vast majority don’t but some do. Calling bullshit just does not cut it. I don’t know the real reason this person suicide bombed and we need to know. Bill had an idea. What idea have you got?
       • marty mars 8.1.4.1

         24 May 2017 at 4:34 pm

         Peer pressure is a very big one i’d say.

         I dont think events turn someone into a mass murderer of innocents. It is already in them. Objectification and dehumanising are steps I think needed to commit multiple murders. And indocrination plus peer pressure can play a big part.

         Once I used to dress up in saffron robes with my shaved head and beads and I’d walk up queen st on a friday night chanting the names of God so that all who heard whether they believed or not derirved some spiritual benefit in my eyes. Belief and the wanting to belong are very powerful.
   • weka 8.2

     24 May 2017 at 1:30 pm

     Yes, and to me that is self-evident and I don’t know why we are still having to talk about this. Not having a go at you, the post is important. Just weird that dynamic is still supposedly in contention. And it’s very similar to the dynamics underlying many other violences. Generally people whose wellbeing is supported don’t commit murder.
   • Adrian Thornton 8.3

     25 May 2017 at 9:23 am

     @Bill, I think that you are right, this is exactly why I believe it is critical that there has to be more balance in the media around all these tragedies, as it stands with our totally skewed and biased coverage, we only reinforce and entrench divides.

     Instead of these events driving these wedges between different cultures. races, and dividing us all, they could easily be used by a smart media to reinforce our similarities, that we all feel the same pain, loss, bewilderment, that we all want our children,family and friends to live without fear, no matter race, religion, or what part of the world you live in.

     I have emailed RNZ numerous times, asking politely, that they consider taking this angle on their reportage on these events.

     You ask what is to be done, well that is what I can do, and have done ( and ask my friends to do) not much I know, but if a hundred of people emailed or wrote into RNZ with a similar request then maybe?
9. weka 9

   24 May 2017 at 1:33 pm

   Am listening to an interview between George Monbiot and Russell Brand. Monbiot just said that most people are good and want to be in community. A small % are sociopaths. Sociopaths born into poor families end up in prison, sociopaths born into rich families go to business school.

   My take on that is that at the moment we are top heavy with people in charge who are fundamentally not equipped to manage the wellbeing of humans given we are inherently communal and co-operative. This is why I don’t see a huge amount of difference between the US presidents who bomb civilians and the Islamic fundamentalist leaders who bomb civilians. They’re all the wrong people to be in charge, and in the case of the US at least it’s the system that creates that (I’m sure Obama was a decent enough person under the right conditions).

   In terms of solutions, build community and have extended compassion for communities that are struggling.
   • Bill 9.1

     24 May 2017 at 1:49 pm

     Basically, the final line.

     Though it seems to me there’s a lot of pressure being applied in the opposite direction. In our fairly insulated western societies we are to be individualistic, not communal.

     And we’re strongly encouraged to accede to a societal view that ‘others’ and/or diminishes those societies or cultures that aren’t right alongside our own on some comfortable imagined continuum.
     • Molly 9.1.1

       24 May 2017 at 2:04 pm

       Agree.

       We also have to do our best to hold our “representatives” to account, and ensure they also exhibit these behaviours.

       Was watching a Bastoy prison item on Youtube, (that comes from a Mike Moore film – sicko) where the top executive employed by their state owned oil company, expressed his surprise at being hired. (@t 2:41) His role – as an academic philosopher – to ensure the long-term benefits of the citizens who owned the company, and to ensure it was run ethically.
   • RedLogix 9.2

     24 May 2017 at 9:09 pm

     @weka

     The Dunedin Longitudinal Study essentially makes the same point …. that a small fraction of the population (< 5% ) can be identified from a very early age as "over confidant/under controlled". This group have volatile personalities and crucially when exposed to any form of abuse as a child between the ages about 5 – 10 are the group most likely to become dangerous as adults.

     In essence yes … every society has a small group of sociopaths who are most prone to committing atrocities. Islam has no monopoly on them. However in the normal course of events society exerts a strong constraint upon them. By moral force and intense social disapproval any one-off act in isolation quickly dampens out.

     But every society has it's hidden fractures; the global one we live having many. The tension between the western democracies and the Islam being especially potent. And when a leader chooses to exploit these tensions for their own political purposes they also unleash the normal inhibitions which keep the sociopaths in check.

     The former Yugoslavia is a prime example; the demise of a strong man leader whose own totalitarian rule had suppressed racial and cultural tensions for generations, the rise of demagogues who saw an opportunity to demonise their opponents … first led to one sociopathic act of terror, to another in reprisal and so on. As one commentator at the time memorably described it, “their society unzipped from bottom up”.

     In Europe right now it is the children of first generation Muslim immigrants who are the ones struggling with fractured identities, social barriers and inequality. It’s a classic scenario, the immigrant generation know why they made the move to another country and want nothing more than for their children have a better life. Their children however struggle with a split identity, not fitting in with either the ‘old country’ nor really their new one. It’s the second and third generations who start to forge their own way.

     And this is the toxic combination we are seeing here, radical religious leadership willing to exploit these very real social tensions, first generation immigrant alienation, and a small minority of damaged individuals responding with sociopathic atrocities.
10. David Mac 10

    24 May 2017 at 1:41 pm

    Modern warfare places participants so far apart. The drones cruising the barren hills are being operated by soldiers chucking down Big Macs and Cokes in an air-conditioned bunker just out of Vegas.

    The Brits there for WW2 talk of the pulse jet sound from the Nazi rockets and the terror associated with hearing one stop. That model aircraft sound from a drone is playing exactly the same tune. Treat people like that, they’re going to bite back. Regularly seeing the look of sheer terror in your child’s face is quite some motivator.

    The suicide bomber will never need to meet the parents of those young girls, the soldiers in a bunker in Nevada will never need to meet the parents of their ‘unluckies’.

    I think everyone without birthright should get the hell out of there. Let what will be, be. Every time I’ve stood in the middle of domestic friction, I failed to help…and that was just 3 of us. Eventually, they sorted it out for the best.

    Corny as but Lennon was right, all we need is love.
11. greywarshark 11

    24 May 2017 at 1:56 pm

    People younger won’t remember but there were bomb incidents in Australia when bad history from WW2 was still being played out – this time it was some of the Yugoslavs as they were then, particularly the Croatians. It was seen as something to contain then not the end of civilisation, but a dent in it.

    Their problem went back to WW2 and after and every time now there is a bombing or some outrage that is another flame to be kept burning to erupt in the future. What is being done in the Middle East is disastrous for reason, and likely to rebound in years to come and we may just have to put up with it then and try and understand.

    And on reading the start of the wikipedia info on the Oz events there was also a taint of set up by a state security agency. The ripples go wide and for years after these events.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Croatian_Six
12. marty mars 12

    24 May 2017 at 2:09 pm

    This idea that people who have seen friends and family killed will go on some Rambo revenge quest is rubbish. Had this happened elsewhere? Anywhere? No it is a movie meme. The damage emotionally, mentally and physically from seeing loved ones killed doesn’t turn people into killers, murderers of innocents. they are more likely to suffer for years barely getting through with PTSD and other debilitating illnesses. ffs wake up people – how much of the propaganda against Muslims is similar to this subtle othering and dehumanising.
    • David Mac 12.1

      24 May 2017 at 2:17 pm

      I think it does create a widespread, heartfelt sentiment. A feeling strong enough to inspire the unhinged to behave in an extreme manner with the belief that they are helping.
      • greywarshark 12.1.1

        24 May 2017 at 6:45 pm

        I think that is the point – unhinged. And the sensitivities of the young or poor can be played upon by clerics or warlords or simple crims.

        People who have had family wiped out, been traumatised om some way, don’t necessarily go Rambo though. They may become afraid so much that their unconscious makes them cower. Some of the WW1 returnees could be made to duck and run doubled-over by a sudden loud noise, as boys found out to their amusement. But whatever the bad experience it leaves scars.
    • Bill 12.2

      24 May 2017 at 2:21 pm

      As far as I’m aware, no-one has said that seeing loved ones killed will result in “some Rambo revenge quest”.
      • marty mars 12.2.1

        24 May 2017 at 2:32 pm

        Semantics – how brave lol
        • weka 12.2.1.1

          24 May 2017 at 3:03 pm

          yeah, people with ptsd never act out of their pain.
          • marty mars 12.2.1.1.1

            24 May 2017 at 3:23 pm

            Not sure what you’re talking about. Bill and I are discussing the semantics of who said what – for instance i mentioned rambo and bill is saying no one said they WILL turn into rambos. That is correct and imo beside the point and nit picky semantics that deviates from the point I was making that bill responded to.
            • weka 12.2.1.1.1.1

              24 May 2017 at 3:35 pm

              Ok, carry on with your straw Rambo then.
              • marty mars …

                24 May 2017 at 3:47 pm

                Thanks glad you’ve given permission.
                • weka …

                  24 May 2017 at 3:50 pm

                  and I’m likewise glad that we’ve now established that you are running a straw man argument.
                  • marty mars …

                    24 May 2017 at 4:10 pm

                    Please don’t put words in my mouth.

                    I think my argument is not a straw man. And I’m happy to accept if others disagree.
13. rhinocrates 13

    24 May 2017 at 3:03 pm

    FWIW

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/special-report-the-psychology-of-terrorism/

    Special Report: The Psychology of Terrorism – Five experts share recent studies, classical research and professional experiences that shed light on defusing the threat of extremism

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-research-says-about-defeating-terrorism/

    What Research Says about Defeating Terrorism – Seven enlightening studies from social psychology hold vital lessons for policy makers—and the rest of us

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fueling-terror-how-extremists-are-made/

    Fueling Terror: How Extremists Are Made – The psychology of group dynamics goes a long way toward explaining what drives ordinary people toward radicalism

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rescue-mission-freeing-young-recruits-from-the-grip-of-isis/

    Rescue Mission: Freeing Young Recruits from the Grip of ISIS – Memories and emotions—not reason—hold the key to reclaiming young fanatics, according to an expert team in France
    • Bill 13.1

      24 May 2017 at 4:08 pm

      Thanks for those links rhinocrates. Some interesting stuff.
14. keepcalmcarryon 14

    24 May 2017 at 3:30 pm

    Social engineering, mass migration and globalisation. Humans are tribal people, as nice as the idea of everyone living cheek by jowl might be, there are social problems.
    Lack of integration of ethnic minorities is the key issue – migration has to be at a pace that allows everyone to adjust to their new life, locals and immigrants alike, that is the only way people can accept each other.
    Being treated as outsiders or not integrating- either due to local hostility from open immigration policy not wanted, or lack of government welfare to integrate properly leads to the next generation growing up with a chip on their shoulder, looking for an non conforming identity.
15. One Anonymous Bloke 15

    24 May 2017 at 3:52 pm

    If strains of Islam are the vehicle

    As mentioned on the “Oh Manchester” post, ideology has very little to do with the reasons people become terrorists.
    • Bill 15.1

      24 May 2017 at 4:13 pm

      Yeah, some of those links rhinocrates provided cover that territory too.

      Not quite seeing how that contradicts “strains of Islam being the vehicle” though.
      • One Anonymous Bloke 15.1.1

        24 May 2017 at 4:49 pm

        I don’t think it contradicts it as such. To labour the metaphor, if I’m looking for a vehicle there are plenty to choose from.

        Psycho Milt rages against Islam because it explicitly sanctions violence in much the same way as the Bible does (cloth of mixed threads etc.): arguments regarding the colour of the vehicle say nothing about the state of mind of the driver.
        • keepcalmcarryon 15.1.1.1

          24 May 2017 at 4:59 pm

          Except biblically the stonings etc were old testament and noone condones that shit now. Contrast with radical islam. I note the bomber was a devout muslim: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/23/manchester-arena-attacker-named-salman-abedi-suicide-attack-ariana-grande

          “Mohammed Saeed, a senior figure of Didsbury Mosque and Islamic Centre, said Salman Abedi had looked at him “with hate” after he gave a sermon criticising Isis and Ansar al-Sharia in Libya.”
          as Ive said somewhere else, its accepted that many of these terrorists are not at heart religious they are poorly integrated immigrants or their progeny with a chip on their shoulder looking for an outlet.
          That said, wahabist islam is filling that niche.
          Saudi and their USA backers should also be condemned for their direct or indirect support.
          Huffpost had an excellent few articles on this , here is one: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-wahhabism-saudi-arabia_b_5717157.html
        • Bill 15.1.1.2

          24 May 2017 at 5:02 pm

          Indeed. (Never quite understood people insisting Buddhism is/was all mungbeans and sunshine).

          But short of listing every ‘vehicle’ I could think of, I thought the word ‘if’ as a qualifier served its purpose well enough.
16. Ed 16

    24 May 2017 at 4:27 pm

    Stop our addiction to oil.
17. mary_a 17

    24 May 2017 at 4:30 pm

    This article from NZH today, written by investigative journalist James Harkin, gives an insight to how Islamic fundamentalists might see and judge western culture, putting themselves in the self appointed position of taking down and wiping out what they perceive as debauched values, particularly where women and music are concerned. The irony being, in past lives many of these young men lived debauched lives, before becoming part of radical Islam!

    Although not for me, I can however understand why some people are led towards particular religions … in the hope of leading better lives, guidance perhaps … SBW being one example, of someone I see now leading a cleaner, more generous, less selfish, peaceful life, through conversion to Islam. But what drives some to want to become part of an organisation such as ISIS through Islam in the first place is anyone’s guess.

    If nothing else, Harkin’s piece is an interesting read.

    James Harkin is director of the Centre for Investigative Journalism and a reporter on Syria and the rise of Islamic State.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=11862281

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