Who are these angry Aucklanders?

243 comments on “Who are these angry Aucklanders? ”

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1. Andre 1

   3 October 2021 at 10:42 am

   I am angry that the government does not appear to have any kind of coherent plausible plan to get us beyond the roughly 80% of us that are readily willing to get vaccinated, to the 90% they are tossing around as what's needed to relax the seriously fkn onerous curtailments of our rights we are suffering from right now.

   Endlessly burbling about kindness isn't a plan. Vague mutterings about vaccine passports sometime vaguely in the future isn't a plan.

   Announcing legislation to clarify that "no jab, no jab" policies are totally legit additions to existing employment contracts, due to the unforeseen nature of the pandemic, would be part of a plan.

   Announcing legislation to clarify that "no jab, no entry" is entirely legal and expected for businesses, hospitality venues, events, public transport etc would be part of a plan.
   • mickysavage 1.1

     3 October 2021 at 10:55 am

     But it is happening. On the ground all sorts of initiatives are being tried. We have and still are vaccinating huge numbers each day. We avoided the running out of vaccine crisis and now the Government is dealing with the reaching the reluctant crisis. Try this one for example:

     https://www.facebook.com/Jerome.Mika.Papakura/posts/4610313475685958
     • Andre 1.1.1

       3 October 2021 at 11:09 am

       The Samoan community doesn't appear to be where the problem lies. They appeared to get on board quite early with organising vaccination events at churches etc. It really was a tragic irony that they were one of the groups to get hit hard at the start of this outbreak.

       We are not, repeat, not, vaccinating huge numbers every day. Daily vaccinations are somewhere around 45,000 per day, down from a peak of 90,000ish per day a month ago. Even though we now have vastly more capacity. First doses are down even more sharply, to averaging maybe 12,000 per day. With roughly a million eligibles unjabbed, and over half a million to go to get to 90%, that's an awfully long time to go at those rates.

       Meanwhile, the people I'm aware of that aren't yet jabbed are feeling precisely zero reason to actually go and get jabbed. Because they don't think their decision to not get jabbed will ever have any impact on their lifestyle. These are the people that need the wake-up they would get from firm plans for "no jab, no job" and "no jab, no entry" policies.
       • Bearded Git 1.1.1.1

         3 October 2021 at 11:38 am

         Bollocks Andre. NZ has now vaxxed more people that Germany, Australia and the USA.

         At only 40,000 vaxxes a day from now until Christmas we will have vaccinated 87% of the ENTIRE population by my calculations. It doesn't need to stop there. Assuming a vaccine is approved for 5-12 year olds we should be able to get over 90%. It at this stage, when we have more than 90% of the entire population vaxxed, we could look at some gradual lifting of border restrictions.

         https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
         • Andre 1.1.1.1.1

           3 October 2021 at 11:52 am

           If Christmas is your reference timeframe for relaxing restrictions on Aucklanders from visiting family and doing other things outside Auckland or even doing fun things within Auckland, you can go fuck yourself. Sideways. Seriously.

           I get it that some people actually like Auckland being in lockdown. Maybe it fits their vision of what they would like New Zealand to be. Or something.

           BTW, Our World in Data is using a figure somewhere around 4.8 million as NZ's population. Which is why their vaccination rates for NZ are always a lot higher than our Ministry of Health numbers. So no, we haven't quite passed Germany in percent of population with first dose.
           • Bearded Git 1.1.1.1.1.1

             3 October 2021 at 1:38 pm

             …unless they are similarly underestimating Germany's population. BTW I did not used the World in Data figures to calculate the 87% which I stand by.

             I feel sympathy for Auckland and have friends and relations who are suffering there. It is bad luck that it is the place with most of the MIQ and most or all of the overseas flights coming in so it was always at highest risk. But I didn’t say that Auckland should be at Level 3 till Xmas. So your charming words are both oddly extreme and unjustified.
           • Gypsy 1.1.1.1.1.2

             3 October 2021 at 4:18 pm

             You're first paragraph is a gem, and reflects what I'm hearing around 'angry' Auckland.

             According to the NZH data, 79% of the eligible population have had their first vaccine, only 48% are fully vaccinated.

             We are 92nd on the world for fully vaccinated numbers per population.

             And Bearded Git's 'only 40,000' vaxxes a day looks a stretch based on recent vax uptake, which has tapered off sharply since 30 August.
             • georgecom …

               3 October 2021 at 8:57 pm

               40,000 per day on average roughly, 46,000 on thursday (Data in this section is as at 11:59pm 30 September 2021).

               2/3 second doses, 1/3 first doses – 78% of the eligible population.

               it’s roughly 1/3 of the eligible population getting a first jab each day, every 3 days an extra 1%. So Friday, Saturday and Sunday gets us to 79% as I write this. So by wednesday it will be pretty much 80%. Anyone who expected the surge to go on like it was is a mo not in touch with reality. The higher hanging fruit is the harder however whilst we are running at 14,000 first doses a day we are making steady progress. I expect the 5 day level 3 in the Waikato and scare in the Manawatu will spur some more to go out and get a jab
               • Bearded Git …

                 4 October 2021 at 9:58 am

                 Agreed georgecom. NZ's vaccine roll-out has been fabulous in the last few weeks.

                 My only problem with your post is % OF WHAT? Australia uses percentages above 16yo; NZ uses percentages above 12yo; the ourworld in data uses percentages of the ENTIRE population.

                 I think everybody should use the entire population, then we would all know where we are.

                 [BTW I heard the first dose gives you 70% protection making it much more likely you will not go to hospital/ICU]
                 • georgecom …

                   4 October 2021 at 12:23 pm

                   79% of the eligible population, currently 12 and above. If vaccines are open to those below 12 obviously the % changes
               • Gypsy …

                 4 October 2021 at 11:12 am

                 The Vaccinations per Day graph has tapered off steeply in September to below 40,000 per day, so averages mean nothing if the trend is down. In fact you can see the curve tapering in the cumulative vaccinations. But yep, I'll grant you the surge throughout August was encouraging.
                 • georgecom …

                   4 October 2021 at 12:28 pm

                   the graph has trended downward and hat is an established fact

                   that in itself says nothing about whether the first dose line will then flatten, plummet dramatically or taper slowly away. A couple more weeks at 1/3 of the eligible population getting a first dose everyday, 12-14,000 per day, will see around a 5% overall lift in first doses – that puts us within reach of 90%. A couple more weeks past that at the 1/3 daily rate puts us right on the cusp of 90%. A covid scare in the Manawatu and Waikato should help bolster that downward trend
                   • Gypsy …

                     4 October 2021 at 1:51 pm

                     I certainly hope so.
       • mickysavage 1.1.1.2

         3 October 2021 at 7:29 pm

         We are not, repeat, not, vaccinating huge numbers every day. Daily vaccinations are somewhere around 45,000 per day, down from a peak of 90,000ish per day a month ago. Even though we now have vastly more capacity. First doses are down even more sharply, to averaging maybe 12,000 per day. With roughly a million eligibles unjabbed, and over half a million to go to get to 90%, that's an awfully long time to go at those rates.

         For a while we had the highest vaccination rates in the OECD. Right now we are fourth. 40,000 a day is about 1% of the eligible population each day. First doses will go down. We will safely hit 80% vaccination within the next month or so, then it is the problem with persuading those less willing to be vaccinated to actually doing it.
         • Andre 1.1.1.2.1

           3 October 2021 at 7:51 pm

           If that sort of just cruisy ambling along with Auckland in level 3, burbling about how important vaccination is without taking actual substantial actions to incentivise the reluctants is the plan for the next month or so, then I for one will develop some serious anger about the government's feeble response to the problem of the reluctants. There is plenty they could be doing that visibly isn't happening.

           Once that anger is there, it will be very difficult to pull it back, even with two years until the next election. And the Greens have been utterly fkn useless and practically invisible in the push to get our population vaccinated.

           Governments lose elections, oppositions don't win them. Failing to get its shit together at the last but toughest step in getting vaccination rates high enough so we can move beyond lockdowns could very well be how this government loses 2023. Even considering what a pathetically useless clown show the other lot are at the moment.
           • mickysavage 1.1.1.2.1.1

             3 October 2021 at 8:08 pm

             You should try election campaigns. Me and a bunch of others pour huge energy into getting hopefully 80% of the population turn up and tick a piece of paper. This is way more complex and way more demanding.

             It is being incentivised. This may not be hitting the main stream media but from my admittedly privileged inside position a lot is happening.

             I have always respected your views Andre which are always forcibly argued.

             But which country do you think New Zealand should emulate?
             • Andre …

               3 October 2021 at 8:39 pm

               Indeed. It's a tough situation with lots of dead rats for lots of people to swallow on the way to a good community outcome. With the results of missteps along the way being a lot of suffering and premature deaths.

               There isn't a country I can point to right now that I think New Zealand should emulate.

               But Joe Biden's moves to ensure vaccinations happen wherever it is in his power to apply pressure is a good model to follow. His actions mandating vaccines in large companies are grounded in powers to ensure health and safety.

               Here in NZ, we have already had courts rule that no jab, no job policies on health and safety grounds are legitimate in the case of Customs workers, with loss of job for refusal to comply as a reasonable outcome. Seems to me that's a clear signal that health and safety is reasonable grounds for no jab no job policies elsewhere, when legislated.

               Businesses legitimately want support and clear direction from the government on this. They don't want to individually be the ones to shoulder the burden of taking things through the courts, and as far as I'm concerned that's fair enough. Similarly for event promoters, hospitality venues and so on. I think that's an area that really is a government responsibility, and if the government shirks that responsibility it should be held accountable for that failure.

               I get it that premature announcements of upcoming legislation could be counterproductive, which might be a good reason for the apparent lack of action. But the time vaccination rates need to be boosted is now. Not in a month or three.
           • Poission 1.1.1.2.1.2

             3 October 2021 at 8:15 pm

             Singapore with 82% fully and 85% partial vaccination is expected to hit 5000 cases per day this week.

             In a command and control jurisdiction with significant mandatory interdictions they also have seemed to have waved under the premis of relaxed border controls,and are now needing to open a new hospital for covid of 3700 beds.

             https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/covid-19-daily-number-cases-rise-5000-gan-kim-yong-2217106
             • lprent …

               4 October 2021 at 2:06 pm

               Yeah right now Singapore has tested the 80% vaccination rate allowing opening up, and has gone back to pushing in restrictions.

               The reason why? This was their friday. The largest number of case sin a single day that thye had ever had – nearly 3000 people.
               Singapore reports highest single-day rise in COVID-19 cases

               A recent spike in infections after the relaxation of some restrictions has prompted Singapore to pause further reopening. It also tightened curbs from this week that limited social gatherings to two people and made work from home a default.

               Sounds like level 3 to me.

               I really can't understand people like Heather the idiot. Don't they read any news apart from the bullshit they make up for themselves?
               • Poission …

                 4 October 2021 at 2:27 pm

                 Schools for under 12 are closed in SG (review next week).

                 the race to the bottom seems the new narrative,so a few can have a sojurn in the sun (and use their airpoints).

                 Globe trotting is not an essential for human life.
               • georgecom …

                 4 October 2021 at 3:34 pm

                 interesting article. we are pretty much at the 80% mark (yes only on first jabs but I make the assumption if you have had one jab should the opportunity be given you will be back for the second) and Singapore has shown that is insufficient. The table in the article is very instructive, ICU cases and deaths amongst the unvaxed and the vaxed. Chalk and cheese stuff.
                 • lprent …

                   4 October 2021 at 10:33 pm

                   Yeah the problem is that while the un-vaccinated are the people catching bad dose of covid-19 that requires hospital or close health care (and more probable to get long covid), they effectively push those who really need the health services for their own conditions out.

                   People requiring cancer treatments, diabetes, heart surgery, ongoing care for disabilities or just plain old infections. The resources with a large covid outbreak concentrate on those needing immediate attention. No medical system is over saturated with resources beyond what are needed for 'normal' loads – and ours is a lot less endowed with spare capacity than most.

                   That is what is driving the change in policy in Singapore, and what drives it here as well.

                   But at some point, we're going to have to decide which is more important to service. After all it is bloody hard to grow medical services in the midst of a pandemic. If the vaccination levels don't increase enough, then when we finally open up, I suspect we're going to triage patients between 2020 hospital care and 1918 pandemic style of stadium or tent hospitals. Right now I'm looking at places in the US who are effectively doing that because they can't handle the patients.

                   Fortunately because the vaccinated population (like the UK) is pretty high, so the flareup looks like it is burning down to a plateau through lack of a lack unvaccinated people to infect.

                   I finally had my second dose on friday. Now I’m starting to watch for the new variants coming out of the countries with low vaccination rates and hoping we get a respite before the first variants come through that bypass the vaccination targeted mechanisms..
                   • georgecom …

                     4 October 2021 at 11:16 pm

                     media reports from Raglan total of 200 vaccine doses delivered Sunday/Monday. The town is 3,300 people so round 2600 eligible for a vaccine dose. 200 doses is roughly 7.5% of the eligible populace. A couple more days like this and we have roughly 15% of the eligible population – split evenly first and second doses will lift the vaccination rates 7-8%. nothing like a covid scare to jump vaccine rates.

                     And yup, thought the same about covid causing delays to other medical needs, care gets rationed.

                     I guess the race now is mutation vs numbers vaccinated. The thing with the delta variant is the speed it spreads, hard to keep in check to suppress death/hospitalisation when vaccinations are low. On the other hand, rapid spread means a significant number of people will have some natural immunity when recovered. Global covid cases could be 2 or 5 or even 10 times reported cases which suggests to me a far greater % of the global population has some natural immunity that just the vaccinated %. The hope, and nothing to base actual it on beyond a general hope, is this will make it a whole lot harder for the virus to rapidly mutate from here
                   • lprent …

                     7 October 2021 at 11:28 am

                     As I was pointing out early in the pandemic with posts, this is a different kind of virus to the ones that we have been used to.

                     A influenza virus has a program of about 1,700 base pairs in its genetic code. Covid-19 and other other corona viruses have more than 30,000 base pairs in their genetic code. A a family they have the largest genetic code of any viruses group – and likely a larger range of behaviours encoded in them.

                     Viruses like influenza and most other diseases we are familiar with rely on actual mutation and picking up odd bits of code everywhere to increase their variability. That happens because those kinds of viruses have limited error checking in its genetic code.

                     Corona viruses are notable because they have checking codons in their genetic sequences. So mutations and grabbing genetic code is rarer. But they have more code of (presumably) effective behaviours that have been retained over their evolutionary history. I suspect that much of what we are seeing is less or mutation, and more enhancements bases on existing genetic code.

                     That is why I think that that covid-19 will remain endemic in human populations producing waves of infection over long periods of time. As a species their genetic code relies less on random chance to get around immunity patterns. The species strategy seems to rely more on expressing previously useful behaviours similar to the increased increased infection rates or faster breeding over time that have already we have already seen happen.
           • weka 1.1.1.2.1.3

             3 October 2021 at 8:57 pm

             And the Greens have been utterly fkn useless and practically invisible in the push to get our population vaccinated.

             Maybe take a breath and look around?

             Hon Marama Davidson MP and Manurewa Marae Chief Executive Officer Takutai Kemp at the launch of ShotCuzz, a bus designed to make the Covid-19 vaccination more accessible in the South Auckland community

             https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/shotcuzz-bringing-vaccinations-to-the-people/2VEYPELUXPPN6TC7GU2F7WNSDQ/

             This is core public health. You don't force people, you meet people where they are.

             The whole line that unvaxxed people are lazy or stupid, instead of taking into account the range of reasons and responding to them, is shooting oneself in the foot.
         • Bearded Git 1.1.1.2.2

           4 October 2021 at 9:59 am

           80% of what? See my post above.
     • Ad 1.1.2

       3 October 2021 at 1:17 pm

       Jerome Mika is awesome and hopefully gets in next time.

       Jerome and the tireless work of his team has ensured that there's no possibility of racist urges popping up among the 'rage' Mickey describes.
     • alwyn 1.1.3

       3 October 2021 at 3:07 pm

       I find your link to the statement by Jerome Mika interesting. He appears to be taking John Key's advice to heart and finding out that it works.

       Reward people for getting the vaccination and they will get it. Just as Mr Mika is finding with the reward of a food parcel, a kid's pack or KFC for coming forward and getting a jab.

       Were you meaning to demonstrate the John appears to be right on target with his opinions?
       • weka 1.1.3.1

         3 October 2021 at 3:12 pm

         people were talking about and doing these strategies before Key piped up.
       • fender 1.1.3.2

         3 October 2021 at 3:24 pm

         It does seem odd that some people need an extra incentive to be vaccinated. As if staying alive isn't enough of a reward. I don't understand this mindset at all, but "give me some KFC and I'll save my life" could well be something Key understands. Weird.
       • mickysavage 1.1.3.3

         3 October 2021 at 7:30 pm

         Key's strategy is whatever will allow him to engage in overseas travel. I don't think we shouold pay much attention to it.
         • alwyn 1.1.3.3.1

           3 October 2021 at 9:09 pm

           It's lucky that it is Jerome Mika rather than you who is arranging vaccinations then, isn't it?

           He has obviously decided that the John Key recommendations work and is following them. Thus he is getting a lot of people to accept the jabs who might not otherwise have done so. You seem to believe that Key should be ignored because of what precisely? Was it that he was an enormously popular, and a successful PM?
           • miravox 1.1.3.3.1.1

             4 October 2021 at 9:33 am

             ummm – people have been working hard on the things John Key mentioned before John Key mentioned them.

             They're have been following practices they know work. Key should be ignored precisely because he's late to the party on vaccination reckons that are evidence-free.

             He's also creating confusion and undermining, not enhancing the whole damn vaccination drive. If he was really interested in improving vaccination rates he'd be asking the MoH how best he could use his voice. It seems he didn't do that.
           • lprent 1.1.3.3.1.2

             4 October 2021 at 2:11 pm

             Yes – I agree with you that is the John Key signature of grabbing the credit for the work of the more competent than himself.

             John Key is a lazy fool who decided to jump on the bandwagon that other people were doing long ago, and tried to claim the credit for it for himself.

             I sure that there is a word for this kind of depraved attention seeking behaviour – but I can't quite remember what it is.
             • higherstandard …

               4 October 2021 at 2:25 pm

               "I sure that there is a word for this kind of depraved attention seeking behaviour – but I can't quite remember what it is."

               Ancient geekism ?
               • lprent …

                 4 October 2021 at 10:44 pm

                 Yep – I don't have much time to more than keep the site up.

                 Too busy working hard at writing code, delivering marketable products, getting paid more, and having more interesting work to do. Still an ancient geek who by choice and previous experience avoids any further management work.

                 I'm now 40 odd years older than most of the programmers I scrum with. Have to work a bit more to keep up and to stay ahead.

                 I see that you haven't died yet. But I see that you have retained your ability to be quite brain-dead, and never say anything of any interest to anyone else apart from self-pleasuring your shrivelled ego.
   • Anne 1.2

     3 October 2021 at 10:59 am

     I agree Andre. Ardern’s government has been wishy-washy on some aspects of the Covid programme. I'm still not sure whether she/they support vaccination passports.

     AIR NZ has announced they will be banning non-vaccinated people on overseas flights. Not sure if it applies to domestic services, but its the way to go. If more businesses and companies follow suit I will be delighted.

     Stuff the "freedom to choose" argument. A far more important freedom is a Covid-free nation or as near to it as we can get.
     • Andre 1.2.1

       3 October 2021 at 11:27 am

       In a very real sense, the virus has forced on us the choice between lockdowns and vaccination. At a community level, and at an individual level.

       A huge majority of the community has chosen vaccination. The few that choose not to vaccinate can have the lockdown life as their choice. They have no fkn right to force lockdowns on the rest of us.

       Choice is preserved. What the virus has taken away from us is the ability for people to not have to choose, but instead help themselves to both sides of the choice.
     • mickysavage 1.2.2

       3 October 2021 at 8:10 pm

       There are 50+ lawyers waiting for the first sign of vaccination passports to start litigation. This is not a simple issue that can be resolved at a single meeting.
       • Anne 1.2.2.1

         3 October 2021 at 8:58 pm

         I don't doubt your assertion mickysavage but:

         How come the following nations (which I have selected from the linked list because they could be broadly classed as allies) are already operating vaccine passports. Bearing in mind such documents have existed in the past. Eg. Smallpox.

         Belgium, Canada, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Japan, Netherlands, Norway, Samoa, Sth Korea, Spain, Sweden and of course the UK and the US.

         https://www.movehub.com/blog/countries-using-covid-passports/

         If they had similar problems they appear to have solved them with little trouble.
         • Cricklewood 1.2.2.1.1

           4 October 2021 at 10:50 pm

           Here, I suspect the Treaty of Waitangi would be weaponized especially with Maori having lower than avg rates.
       • lprent 1.2.2.2

         4 October 2021 at 2:23 pm

         There are 50+ lawyers waiting for the first sign of vaccination passports to start litigation.

         Not to mention how easy they appear to be to forge. I keep reading in different countries of the scams worked around whatever system that was used to create them securely.

         The most pathetic has to be Australia. It takes about 10 minutes max to download a utility, break into 'secure' PDF and to change the name.

         I see that a few days ago, the federal government weren't planning on making them any more secure.

         The problem is that if people trust the vaccination certificates of others to be valid, for instance for entry into a hospital or old folks home, or even a workplace with the current rates of breakthrough infections – then the whole system goes down the toilet.

         It isn't that hard to do the same kinds of tricks with QR codes if they aren't backed by a robust online system (to prevent forgeries) and an alternate identification – like the airport systems.

         Anything less just makes a vaccination passport about as useless as a placebo.
   • Ric 1.3

     3 October 2021 at 11:22 am

     The plan includes liaising with ethnic and community groups to find their own ways to get more people vaccinated. There are also vaccine buses, free taxis and pop up vaccination centres. The government is also committed to revising its strategy if it's not successful.

     I also support no jab no "whatever" policies and share your frustration that so many people are too ignorant, stupid or lazy to get themselves vaccinated given that the stakes are so high.
     • Andre 1.3.1

       3 October 2021 at 11:37 am

       I recommend the government revise those plans very quickly. I've been watching the vaccination numbers closely every day, and all I see is a strong downward trend.

       Meanwhile, overseas there's plenty of evidence to show that "no jab, no job" and "no jab, no entry" policies are in fact very successful at getting people to go and get jabbed.
   • Drowsy M. Kram 1.4

     3 October 2021 at 11:42 am

     Announcing legislation to clarify that "no jab, no jab" policies are totally legit additions to existing employment contracts, due to the unforeseen nature of the pandemic, would be part of a plan.

     Announcing legislation to clarify that "no jab, no entry" is entirely legal and expected for businesses, hospitality venues, events, public transport etc would be part of a plan.

     Wouldn't forced vaccination be a more effective way to 'reach' the vaccine hesitant than ‘no jab, no whatever‘ policies? I'd have to be very very angry indeed to be 'comfortable' with forced vaccination, but anger can make our ethical compasses behave erratically, not to mention raise one's blood pressure.

     As rural Washington shoulders fifth COVID-19 wave, anger over masks, vaccines marks politics of the pandemic [1 October 2021]

     Some people opposing vaccines are true believers that they are harmful, Koltai said, while others might just be harnessing the issue for other motivations.

     Ultimately, “there’s a difference between someone who’s like actually hesitant and someone who’s an anti-vaxxer,” said Koltai, adding: “There are a lot of people that are still reachable, and at the end of the day everyone wants to be healthy.”

     In Wenatchee, hospitals workers are confronting those factors one by one.

     Dr. Saba Lodhi, physician medical director for Central Washington Hospital’s intensive care unit, still sees pulmonary patients in that role. And she has seen a change in the patients’ trust levels with COVID-19.

     “Patients who have been my patients for a decade now question in a different way,” she said. “It’s more in a way of, ‘How do you know the biochemistry on this? But I read this on Google …’ ”

     Kasnic, the hospital’s chief nursing officer, meanwhile, is trying to persuade skeptical employees to get their shots before the Oct. 18 mandate deadline.

     “I’ve had many talks with some of the staff that aren’t vaccinated and don’t want to get vaccinated,” said Kasnic, who’s worked at the hospital for 22 years. “And say, ‘would you like to take a walk-through? Because I’m going to be really upset if you’re in one of these beds.’ ”

     She was referring to a walk-through of the hospital’s ICU — where 10 COVID-19 patients lay on a recent day hooked to ventilators.

     “I’ve gotten two vaccinated that way,” she said. “They didn’t know what it was going to look like.”

     In an interview last week, Kasnic said she had just worked 35 days in a row, adding: “I didn’t ever think that I would have to be doing any of this.”
     • Andre 1.4.1

       3 October 2021 at 12:01 pm

       If someone really doesn't want to be vaccinated, they can figure out how to earn a living from home. Lots of people do that. "No jab, no job" is not forcing vacccination.

       If someone really doesn't want to be vaccinated, they can get their shopping delivered. Lots of people already do that. "No jab, no entry" is not forcing vaccination.

       Choice to not get vaccinated is preserved. People's right to public health is preserved. All that has to happen is that those that refuse to take reasonable precautions to preserve public health have to make other adjustments to their lifestyle.

       I dunno what kind of ethical compass would lead someone to think it's okay to go out in public without taking a quick, safe, effective and free precaution against spreading a very nasty disease. But, hey, it takes all sorts of ideas to make up a world, I s'pose.
       • Drowsy M. Kram 1.4.1.1

         3 October 2021 at 12:14 pm

         My intention was to make the same point, i.e. that "No jab, no job", "No jab, no entry", or setting up tents for the unvaccinated in hospital carparks for that matter, would not be as effective as forcing vaccination.

         Just how much societal coercion is acceptable to achieve individual freedoms during a pandemic is a situationally-dependent personal opinion – no judgement from me, and COVID-19 doesn’t care anyway. Time to live with COVID?
       • Clive Macann 1.4.1.2

         3 October 2021 at 12:43 pm

         A huge number of manual labour workers out there including service industry, etc. they haven't got the choice to work from home and are probably in the biggest unvaxed groups of workers. No jab No job will work.
     • Weasel 1.4.2

       4 October 2021 at 9:32 am

       Regarding no jab no job, this is a very interesting legal opinion from high profile, well-respected legal firm Minter Ellision that employers can under current legislation mandate, due to health and safety concerns, that workers must get a vaccination.

       https://www.minterellison.co.nz/our-view/can-we-vaccinate-yes-we-can
   • Frank 1.5

     3 October 2021 at 4:51 pm

     I agree with Andre. In my area there is a lot of forestry work. You cannot get a job in forestry without a clear cannibus test. This is for your own safety and that of fellow workers. I rarely drink anyway but the law says that I could go to jail if I drink a bottle of wine and then drive my car. This is for the safety of myself and other road users. I see no difference with vaccination. I am fully vaccinated and I see no reason why other people should be allowed to put other people at risk by refusing to be vaccinated.
   • Kiwijoker 1.6

     3 October 2021 at 5:34 pm

     Andre, stop deflecting from the intent of the op that HDPA is covids equivalent Tokyo Rose.
   • Kathiravelu Ganeshan 1.7

     4 October 2021 at 6:47 am

     The quicker the government announces legislation to clarify that "no jab, no jab" policy additions to existing employment contracts and legislation to clarify the "no jab, no entry" legislation for businesses, hospitality venues, events, public transport etc the quicker we will be out of this.
2. Sabine 2

   3 October 2021 at 10:52 am

   How many peopled died since lockdown of say cancer and other illnesses and old age, and had to die alone because they are not allowed any visitors? How many people got buried? How many people have their illnesses get worth because they can't get to treatment and so on and so forth.

   I get it, Covid is the thing that we are all to be scared of, dying of Covid now is the scariest death anyone can die off, and if we don't keep the lid on anything people die of Covid, and that is something Govt. will not allow. It does seem tho that dying of everything else is still allowed, its just if you die in Auckland you die alone, and only the barest min of people from your whanau is allowed to come and pay their last respects.

   I don't know, maybe the Ministry of Health needs to send packs of anti depressant pills , Prozac, anti anxiety pills and the likes to every household currently in lockdown to keep the mood. I hear valium is good to keep people nice, quiet and polite? Just a pack a week, and no one is angry anymore.

   As for those that want this Govt to have a plan, it will not have a plan, a plan is something that you can measure and hold someone to account. So yeah, nah, nah.
   • mickysavage 2.1

     3 October 2021 at 10:57 am

     A plan during a pandemic is not a simplistic couple of numbers that the opposition can then say is evidence of failure. A plan is what you are seeing now. Action on multiple fronts and constant adjusting as circumstances change.
     • Sabine 2.1.1

       3 October 2021 at 11:25 am

       and where are these actions?

       Please do a post on the new medical centres, the next childrens hospital that is not in Auckland, this pandemic has been with us now since January 2020, lockdown has been with us since March 2020, and we are still doing the same thing.

       Btw, we are already living with Covid. Lockdown is living with covid. Not visiting your dying relatives is living with Covid. Not being allowed back into the country is living with covid, businesses closing is living with covid, kids trying to do school online on cheap tablet (if they have one and the connectivity) is living with covid.

       So with all do respect, we the people are living with Covid, and the Government should have a plan.

       A plan other then keeping the right to postpone elections. Because it seems that they can plan for that.

       IF you think Tamaki was bad, i suggest you look to Australia.

       The only thing we have done since this pandemic, is to go in lockdown, with some people doing well and others not so much, and those that don't do well, have to little to lose to care about those that do well.

       This government has run out of platitudes and the people are no longer listening to the preachers of that government.

       The government has no plan, it makes it up as it goes along, and fwiw, it is too cowardly to actually admit this. And frankly if it would, it could be considered ‘a plan’.
       • mickysavage 2.1.1.1

         3 October 2021 at 12:46 pm

         The death count would beg to differ with you.
         • RedLogix 2.1.1.1.1

           3 October 2021 at 12:52 pm

           COVID has become endemic. Is your only response to lockdown all humans forever?
           • Ad 2.1.1.1.1.1

             3 October 2021 at 2:45 pm

             Vaccination to 90% of eligible population or more Level 3 lockdowns. It's pretty binary. Certainly we're a bit beyond the Vitamin C.
             • RedLogix …

               3 October 2021 at 2:54 pm

               What happens if despite 90% vaccination people still die?

               Personally I got jabbed as a matter of duty rather than conviction, but if the goalposts keep moving the deal is off.
               • weka …

                 3 October 2021 at 2:57 pm

                 it's not about if, it's about how many. How many die, how many get permanent or long term disability. How many other people's lives are badly impacted because they can't get health care once the hospitals shift to covid care. How many nurses, doctors and allied staff get traumatised by the health system being overrun.
               • Ad …

                 3 October 2021 at 3:00 pm

                 Fully agree that New Zealanders need a stable social contract that is promised and fulfilled by both citizens and government.

                 To me that's a big source of resentment that both Australian state governments and New Zealand's are going to keep facing.
           • mickysavage 2.1.1.1.1.2

             3 October 2021 at 2:49 pm

             No, there are all sorts of different responses. Vaccinations, active suppression and continuous adjustments. It is not a basic do this or don't do this. It is a whole mixture of different things that either keep the R value as close to one as possible or ideally below.
             • Monty …

               3 October 2021 at 10:07 pm

               The current government has. failed us since March last year they could have invested in multiple measure to protect NZ ensure we had the best vaccine roll out not the worst and are now playing catch up. At some point you need to take your head out of you labour rose tinted arse and realise we are over it and they have failed NZ through inaction they have had to lock us down. Where is the plan most comparable countries have given their citizens a plan. The opposition parties have given a plan. But our government with an a huge majority are still waffling and confused they are not giving us a plan just locking us down.
               • DS …

                 3 October 2021 at 11:01 pm

                 Just remind me again… how many people are dying in those overseas countries with "a plan"?
           • miravox 2.1.1.1.1.3

             4 October 2021 at 9:54 am

             The response is a gradual one. It's pretty obvious.

             MIQs for business rather than just residents isn't popular, but govt continues with it.

             Trying bubbles with Aust hasn't turned out too well. Bubbles with the Pacific were much better for us – It's completely understandable if places like the Cook Is don't want us there at the moment.

             Next step is the workers coming in today from Vanuatu for horticulture being managed by their employers

             Further trials for private business MIQs are on-going.

             – Improving staffing in the health system is still a stumbling block.

             – Ensuring people on low or no incomes is another.

             – As for housing – well, that's a nightmare – and people are asking for new build MIQs in the middle of nowhere (staffed by who??) instead of using resources to create safe transitional housing! I despair!

             Eventually, with vaccinations covid will become background noise in the health sector. But for now, we have lockdowns.

             Reading this thread and anyone would think we're stuck with Level 4 lockdowns as the only response.
       • weka 2.1.1.2

         3 October 2021 at 3:01 pm

         The only thing we have done since this pandemic, is to go in lockdown, with some people doing well and others not so much, and those that don't do well, have to little to lose to care about those that do well.

         We have a multi-pronged approach, it's simply not true to say that the only thing done has been lockdowns.

         The issue of disparity is neoliberalism coming home to roost. We could be using that as a wake up call towards more caring and collectivism.
       • Jester 2.1.1.3

         3 October 2021 at 4:43 pm

         Stuart Nash was asked several times on Wednesday morning by Hosking what the plan is? All he kept saying was 'Yes we have a plan and once we get to 90% vaccinated we will have more options' ……….that's not a plan!
     • RedLogix 2.1.2

       3 October 2021 at 12:50 pm

       About this time last year I was getting shit here for pointing out that relying on lockdowns as the primary control measure were not going to work forever.; that people would have an upper limit on how long they could tolerate them for.

       Melbourne and Sydney are now your leading indicators on this – and this govt would have to be fools to ignore them. And waiting until you get riots in Auckland before deciding on what to do is even less smart.

       On top of this we've seen govts here in Australia push the police into some seriously over the line behaviour in enforcing these restrictions that is having a quietly corrosive effect in terms of trust.

       Just for clarity here – I'm absolutely not advocating for or supporting these protests. Partly because I'm fortunate enough not to be all that motivated to participate – but also because I believe in obedience to government as a matter of principle. I don't believe in kicking over our institutions just because they've inconvenienced me. (I might well want to reform them, but that's another conversation.)

       But equally I know there are plenty of people out there for whom neither of these caveats apply – lockdowns are hurting them badly and by temperament they're highly inclined to start pushing back. We cannot ignore them, or police them away forever. This COVID event has already gone on at least year longer than anyone expected at the outset and each month that goes by the political calculus is swinging against lockdowns and associated restrictions.
       • Drowsy M. Kram 2.1.2.1

         3 October 2021 at 5:19 pm

         Apologies for shitting on your 2 Oct. 2020 suggestion that the pandemic was over. Alas, the virus is not smart enough to 'debate' with humanity on any but the most rudimentary level: "It can't be reasoned with, it can't be bargained with."

         Still, the development of a new potential treatment in pill form is cause for hope.

         Pfizer’s new pill to prevent COVID-19 is not the same as ivermectin [2Oct2021]
         • SPC 2.1.2.1.1

           3 October 2021 at 5:40 pm

           Ironically the former supplier of Ivermectin (off patent) has a treatment pill already showing results.

           https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/mercks-covid-19-pill-cuts-risk-death-hospitalization-by-50-study-2021-10-01/
           • Drowsy M. Kram 2.1.2.1.1.1

             3 October 2021 at 6:02 pm

             Thanks SPC – encouraging news.

             Given that COVID-19 infection (temporarily) messes with the sense of smell in a small proportion of patients, does anyone else here recall "The Coffin Cure", a cleverly-titled 1957 SF short story by Alan E. Nourse?

             "A quick and fun warning about the dangers of succumbing to commercial pressures and releasing a product before having thoroughly tested it." – not intended as ammunition for anti-vax wingnuts, of course.

             https://www.socialsciencespace.com/2020/10/the-coffin-cure-why-vaccine-regulation-matters/
           • Andre 2.1.2.1.1.2

             3 October 2021 at 6:02 pm

             See? See?!? That just proves Merck were suppressing ivermectin so they'd have a market for their new hundred-bucks-a-dose-ten-doses-needed patented stuff !

             Tongue out of cheek now, the numbers of patients in the trial were still really small, about 370ish in each of the treatment and placebo arms. A 50% reduction in hospitalisations is still quite a solid signal, even considering the small numbers, as is the way there were deaths in the placebo arm but not in the treatment arm.

             Those results are still far short of what the vaccines achieve, though.

             The numbers of trial volunteers are orders of magnitude too small to detect any of the extremely rare adverse events that some anti-vaxers claim to be so concerned about. Personally, the claimed mode of action by messing up the virus RNA replication would also scare me if I were in the position of considering whether to take it, out of fears of what it might do to the normal RNA replication going on inside our cells all the time.

             (Disclosure of interest: I hold shares of Merck, the announcement of these results has been very good to my nominal financial position)
         • RedLogix 2.1.2.1.2

           4 October 2021 at 11:06 am

           At that point in time before the variants became a factor – we had all the information and tools we needed to end it.

           However it was deemed more profitable not to, and then there was Trump.
           • Drowsy M. Kram 2.1.2.1.2.1

             4 October 2021 at 12:00 pm

             Your 2 October 2020 claim that the Covid-19 pandemic was over seemed like misinformation at the time. I’m not sure it will ever be over, but each of us will learn to live with COVID in our own good time.

             At that point in time before the variants became a factor – we had all the information and tools we needed to end it.

             It's impossible to know whether variants would have become a factor if the 'tools' you refer to had been used, just as the likelihood of ending the pandemic a year ago is unknowable.

             However it was deemed more profitable not to…

             Really? 'Deemed' by who? Trump? The WHO? Manufacturers of vitamin D supplements and/or the off-patent anthelmintic medication ivermectin? Or do you perhaps believe that vitamin D supplementation could have ended it in October 2020?

             I agree it would have been peachy to end the pandemic last October – we just differ on how achievable such an outcome would have been globally.
     • Herodotus 2.1.3

       3 October 2021 at 5:29 pm

       "A plan is what you are seeing now" _ What you have linked to as " A detailed plan" is nothing of the sort, there are few if can call them that steps in achieving reconnecting to the world. Most of us would just love to be able to 1: Reconnect to family and friends within Auckland and 2: If we are good be able to travel beyond the Auckland boundaries.

       A plan is usually a list of steps taken to accomplish a goal. A plan tackles questions like how, when, where, who, and what. A plan says, “Here are the steps,” while a strategy says, “Here are the best steps.” Strategy speaks to the reasons why, while the plan is focused on how. Nothing what we read satisfies these. It reads like Kiwibuild, vague. A great concept in allowing us to connect with the world – but no understanding on the processes required to achieve.
       • DukeEll 2.1.3.1

         3 October 2021 at 8:36 pm

         That’s all you get peasant
   • Barfly 2.2

     3 October 2021 at 11:23 am

     I am sure that there were some additional deaths from the causes you outlined- but the amazing thing is is that due to the lockdown the number of deaths was LOWER than would be expected in a normal (non-pandemic) time! (lower road toll , lower flu deaths, less suicides etc)
     • Sabine 2.2.1

       3 October 2021 at 11:33 am

       the point i was trying to make is

       that you are not allowed with your spouse/child/relative/friend should they die in a hospital in Auckland say of Cancer, or old age, or lack of access to surgery – covid regulations.

       If they die and you live in lockdown, only a few can go to a funeral, and if you don't live in Auckland you can't go there at all.

       If your child if in need of surgery can not get one cause Starship is in Auckland and Starship is the only specialised Child Hospital in this country we have. Never mind that that may lead to death.

       And fwiw, you might not die of Covid, but never forget that at the end of your life you will die. And the best any of us can hope for is that we are not dying alone, because the country is on government mandated home D.

       At the end of our lifes we all die. The question remains how you die.
       • Drowsy M. Kram 2.2.1.1

         3 October 2021 at 11:59 am

         At the end of our lifes we all die.

         True dat – I'd prefer to die at a time of my choosing, but we don't always get what we want.

         The question remains how you die.

         At peace with myself and others; no 'rage' for me – here's hoping.
       • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 2.2.1.2

         3 October 2021 at 1:01 pm

         Sabine, you come across as very angry with the Labour government, but, I fear, you lose sight of what the alternative might have been.

         Had we a Judith Collins led government we would, for sure, be facing Covid figures like those in Australia, with potentially 'open borders' and rocketing numbers in hospital.

         Just step back a moment an reflect on, in the words of Fred Dagg, 'how lucky we are.
         • Cricklewood 2.2.1.2.1

           3 October 2021 at 3:09 pm

           Lets not have the at least they're not as bad as the other lot arguements…

           Whats happened with housing from affordability, rents, emergency accomodation and homelessness is an absolute disaster that will have societal consequences far great and longer lasting than covid.

           Sabine has every right to be angry the main party of the left has failed NZ completely on such a key aspect.
     • alwyn 2.2.2

       3 October 2021 at 6:30 pm

       Well, what are the implications of that statement?

       If the Government terminates the lockdown does it mean that we should accuse them of manslaughter because more people are going to die? Just imagine the uproar when, after announcing that the lockdown is going to cease, someone in the Press core makes a citizen's arrest of Bloomfield and Ardern on the grounds that they are going to kill a lot of people. The mind bogles.
       • Drowsy M. Kram 2.2.2.1

         3 October 2021 at 7:32 pm

         "The mind bogles" indeed. "If you’re feeling unwell, please please get tested."
   • keith 2.3

     3 October 2021 at 2:07 pm

     Lockdown has likely saved more lives than it has cost. Lockdowns have kept COVID at bay, the same COVID that would overwhelm hospitals as it has done in countless other countries around the world.

     As grumpy as you are about this, you need to realise that there is simply no good plan at this stage while the variables are so poorly defined, and anyone that tries to suggest there is a good plan is simply peddling false hope.

     The best plan for us in the medium to long term is to do everything we can to quash the current outbreak and get the country back to level 1, and continue to keep the borders closed. But it's clear that the decision has swapped from a health one to a political one in no small part thanks to all the idiotic narrative being pushed by our two main opposition parties.

     Instead of supporting the health response, it's "me me me".
     • weka 2.3.1

       3 October 2021 at 2:55 pm

       This is a very good point about there being no good plan. Many people seem to think there is a normal to return to that we are being deprived of. That the state of rest of the world hasn't gotten through suggests to me the primary issue here is psychological (there is some entitlement and selfishness in prominent commentators, I don't see Sabine in that group, her position comes from something else). We should be teaching people how to manage stress and mental health. This is a long crisis.

       I also think we should be talking about how to improve our lives under rolling lockdowns and border closures. At the moment most people see this in very black and white terms.
     • Patricia Bremner 2.3.2

       3 October 2021 at 3:27 pm

       Keith

       instead of supporting the health reponse, it's "me me me".

       That is so true and very sad. We have been told the way out of lockdowns is vaccination to slow and limit spread. Some are acting like it is forever when they could be encouraging the hesitant.

       There is a mistaken belief normal BAU will return.

       [fixed formatting for clarity – weka]
       • Patricia Bremner 2.3.2.1

         4 October 2021 at 4:39 pm

         
     • Cricklewood 2.3.3

       3 October 2021 at 3:28 pm

       Perhaps, or maybe its just delayed a whole bunch… seem to be signs that as countries open up other problems that had been kicked down the road become apparent not to mention there is going to be some pretty severe immunodeficiency about when Fllu Rsv etc come back with a vengeance.

       https://news.yahoo.com/analysis-thousands-more-usual-dying-170117640.html
       • SPC 2.3.3.1

         3 October 2021 at 5:50 pm

         The UK had long periods of lock downs and a lot of pressure on the NHS because of community spread during them and otherwise.

         There were also those who would normally died of flu because of co-morbidities etc

         This northern winter is going to be tough going for their health systems as flu spreads (for us it should at least give us a clue as to what to vaccinate for in 2022).
     • SPC 2.3.4

       3 October 2021 at 5:44 pm

       It's looking like we are Level 2 nationwide through 2022, with home isolation borders for returning Kiwis.

       Hopefully we have mono clonal antibodies for the unvaxxed as soon as, and in 2022 the treatment pills from Merck and Pfizer.
     • Kiwijoker 2.3.5

       3 October 2021 at 5:53 pm

       You’ve got it in one Keith. Too many commentators try to infer that because “I “ don’t like it, we don’t like it.
   • Christopher Randal 2.4

     3 October 2021 at 4:25 pm

     Anti depressants by the truck load?

     Not a bad idea at all – except for their interactions with other meds
   • lprent 2.5

     4 October 2021 at 2:45 pm

     How many peopled died since lockdown of say cancer and other illnesses and old age, and had to die alone because they are not allowed any visitors?

     I'm less worried about the mortality rates than I am about long covid and the long term costs to society of having a high rate of endemic covid-19 in the community. They appears to be some form of auto-immune response causing long term damage.

     You’d be better off asking how many people will contracted a debilitating medical condition that will last for years costing our health system and taxpayers vast amounts of costs in medical treatment and social costs – probably over decades. Because that I what I see and what I’m worried about.

     Currently that is looking like at least 5%-10% of the people who have to be hospitalised from a covid-19 infection being unable to do anything much for 3- 6 months and quite a high proportion of them for much longer with recurrent episodes.

     We still have no good stats of the incidence or causes. But papers like this one from a few days ago scare the crap out of me.

     Incidence, co-occurrence, and evolution of long-COVID features: A 6-month retrospective cohort study of 273,618 survivors of COVID-19

     If you don't want to read something like that, then read these ones written for humans at The Conversation.

     How many people get ‘long COVID’ – and who is most at risk?

     Long COVID: with one in three patients back in hospital after three months, where are the treatments?

     As one of those pointed out, the few people who get over something like influenza and have post recovery symptoms will only have them for about 14 days.

     Covid-19 appears to be more like polio. The issues last for far longer, and the probability of permanent damage or recurring episodes looks like it carry on for far longer to a pretty high proportion of the population.

     The risk of a carry cost to a society of this kind of damage is far more of an issue that a few impatient fools wanting to get on with overseas trips or with a yen for fats fat food.
3. Jenny how to get there 3

   3 October 2021 at 11:05 am

   Anger comes from desperation. Desperation opens up a political space for those bad actors willing to exploit feelings of desperation and anger to push a far right agenda.

   'Auckland is tired': Patience frays as city faces possible lockdown extension

   Virginia Fallon and Adam Jacobson 05:00, Oct 03 2021

   After seven weeks of restrictions, Auckland is tired. Despite enduring the country’s longest lockdown yet, the city still faces dozens of new cases of Covid-19 each day, as Aucklanders anxiously await Monday’s decision on alert levels. Virginia Fallon and Adam Jacobson report.

   Businesses say they are buckling under Covid restrictions, and may not survive another lockdown extension in New Zealand’s economic powerhouse.

   Meanwhile, epidemiologists warn that dropping to alert level 2 while there are still unlinked cases emerging in the community could have dire consequences.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126528735/auckland-is-tired-patience-frays-as-city-faces-possible-lockdown-extension

   Surely it must be overtime now, that to lessen the hardship and help us see out an extended lockdown, a 1930s style rent and mortgage moratorium is implemented until the virus is eliminated again.

   Without measures to sustain a longer lockdown, the only alterantives now is for the virus to get fully out of control to overwhelm our public health response.

   And New Zealand to lose our global respect to become another sad basket case.

   …..by 1931, it was clear that further intervention was necessary to prevent widespread foreclosures and mortgagee sales…..

   ….Although mortgage relief was frequently discussed at some length by
   contemporary commentators, and by some historians in the 1950s and
   1960s, it has been relegated to a few lines at most in more recent works.’

   …..This Act also extended to lessees [renters] the same protection
   that had been granted to mortgagors,

   The modification of mortgage conditions was not new in New Zealand. A ‘mortgage moratorium’ had been imposed as a war measure in 1914,

   http://www.nzjh.auckland.ac.nz/docs/1987/NZJH_21_2_03.pdf
   • roy cartland 3.1

     4 October 2021 at 9:21 am

     +1

     Rent and mortgage moratorium.
4. Anne 4

   3 October 2021 at 11:40 am

   Special press conference announced for today @ 1:00pm with Ardern and Bloomfield. It was previously going to be just a press statement from MoH.
   • Macro 4.1

     3 October 2021 at 12:22 pm

     Mickey says

     The rest of the country is, hopefully, Covid free. Why should the virus be allowed to propagate throughout the rest of the country just so that she and her friends can go to their Coromandel holiday homes?

     Regrettably not any more

     https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/452806/two-new-covid-19-community-cases-reported-in-waikato
     • Andre 4.1.1

       3 October 2021 at 12:23 pm

       Oh shit.
5. Pete 5

   3 October 2021 at 11:54 am

   "She really needs to check her motivation for her comment"?

   Her motivation is her job and she wants it to be as easy as possible. For that she needs specific numbers and details, the more the better.

   If the Government says there will be 78.2% vaccinated by October 5th Du Plessis-Allan has the base of a story, it is a target. Any number less by the date elicits an attack on the grounds of failure.

   If the number is exceeded there'd be a claim that they weren't ambitious enough. And a search to find a region or city with less to highlight failure.

   Thousands go to work each day to keep the country going in spite of covid. They're doing the hard yards, the essential sleeves rolled up ones. Du Plessis-Allan has a job. In covid times quite a cushy job compared to others I'd suggest. Wanting day by day week by week month by month specifics to have a bitchfest is her motivation.

   Not having it? Brilliant, she can bitch about that.
   • AB 5.1

     3 October 2021 at 2:07 pm

     If the Government says there will be 78.2% vaccinated by October 5th Du Plessis-Allan has the base of a story….

     Precisely. He job is to find grounds for attacking the left – preferably real ones, if these aren't available, making up spurious ones will do.
6. Jenny how to get there 6

   3 October 2021 at 12:10 pm

   Rawiri Jansen, a co-director of Te Rōpū Whakakaupapa Urutā, the National Māori Pandemic Group, said the gap with the rest of the population doesn't appear to be closing.

   "Clearly the vaccination programme is not delivering for Māori communities now," he said.

   "If we're worried about an outbreak of [the delta variant] into a situation where the Māori community is the least vaccinated community in the country, that's very disturbing."

   As the rollout gathers pace, Māori and Pacific health groups are increasingly worried efforts to target the most vulnerable populations are falling flat.

   At a mass vaccination event in Manukau a week ago, just under a fifth of the 15,000 people who went were Māori or Pacific…..

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/448828/maori-and-pacific-health-groups-worried-by-low-vaccination-rates

   Where do the Brian Tamakis and Bill Tekahikas of this world draw their inspiration?

   The historic roots of political anti-vaccination.

   …..Recognizing the societal factors that have eroded trust in medical institutions, anti-vaxxers are attempting to direct this distrust to benefit their own cause…..

   More concerning is that they have begun to deliberately target racialized communities with anti-vaccine disinformation and propaganda. Recognizing the societal factors that have eroded trust in medical institutions, anti-vaxxers are attempting to direct this distrust to benefit their own cause…..

   Through their actions, anti-vaxxers deliberately seek to increase the risk of infection in already vulnerable populations. We saw this in 2017 after an outbreak of measles in Minnesota among the Somali-American community in Minneapolis….

   ……The result was a drastic reduction in MMR vaccination uptake between 2004 and 2014 — dropping from 92 per cent to 42 per cent — and one of the largest measles outbreaks in the state in three decades.

   Deliberate targeting has been amplified even further this year in the attempt to discredit COVID-19 vaccines. The prominent anti-vaccine organization Children’s Health Defense recently released a film aimed at fuelling distrust in vaccination among Black Americans.

   Anti-vaccination leaders have also begun to co-opt narratives of persecution and suffering for their own purposes. Last month, a Washington state official wore a yellow Star of David to protest vaccine mandates, while prominent anti-vaccine voice, Naomi Wolf, was scheduled to headline a fundraiser for “liberation” from vaccine mandates on Juneteenth.

   [Juneteenth the celebration of the official end of slavery in the US).

   In the end, the individuals who bear the brunt of an increased burden of disease are those from historically vulnerable communities whose concerns continue to be co-opted and overshadowed by anti-vaccination activists.

   https://theconversation.com/the-inherent-racism-of-anti-vaxx-movements-163456
7. barry 7

   3 October 2021 at 12:22 pm

   I succumbed to the advertising and watched the 7 sharp interview with the scientist for Ireland. They were gushing about how good Ireland is to get to number 1 on the Bloomberg list and it must feel good compared to where they were. There was no mention of them having an average of 3-4 covid deaths per day still.

   Asked about the vaccination programme the scientist beamed when she said that they got up to 350 000 jabs a week. We are still running at about 300 000 per week and complaining about the glacial pace. Yes it will be hard to reach the last few percent, but I see all sorts of initiatives to do just that. I don't see any reason why we can;t get to 90% or over 12s by the end of the year, and soon 0ver 5s will become eligible.

   Our government is not perfect, but it is a lot closer than any of the alternatives that are help up as a model.

   Anybody who can definitively say what will happen in the next few months (even years) is bullshitting you. You make plans, but reality and covid frustrates them every time.
   • dv 7.1

     3 October 2021 at 12:34 pm

     Ireland

     Pop 5m

     Total case 390,989

     New daily cases 1,057

     Tot deaths 5,249

     New deaths 0

     CF that to nz!!!
     • Frank Macskasy 7.1.1

       3 October 2021 at 2:54 pm

       "Tot deaths 5,249"

       That would mean the fall of this government if that number applied to us.

       Not that I'm suggesting for one moment a high death toll would play into the hands of National, ACT, conservative media, et al.

       Oh no, sirree, they wouldn't be that politically cynical to win power on the corpses of 5,249 New Zealanders…

       Surely not?
       • dv 7.1.1.1

         3 October 2021 at 4:41 pm

         Yes

         And I don't understand the bloomberg response rating.

         How can Ireland go to no 1 and NZ slip to 37.

         Weird.
8. Frank Macskasy 8

   3 October 2021 at 12:27 pm

   Combine … middle class privilege; a bloated self entitlement, and media desires for clicks (to increase ratings and thereby sell more advertising) is a toxic brew. It is capitalist self-interest and hyper-individualism, done US style.

   Only the virus wins in such a environment.

   The mainstream media is not above criticism in it behaviour to amplify self-interest and 'heart string' stories.

   [RL: Deleted unnecessary reference to skin colour.]
   • Drowsy M. Kram 8.1

     3 October 2021 at 12:55 pm

     Combine white middle class privilege; a bloated self entitlement…

     But then what was all my 'sacrifice' and 'hardship' for?

     If the levels of personal ‘impatience‘ currently on display are any indication then more than a few talking heads would have exploded by now if they’d had to wait even an extra six months for the development of an effective vaccine.
     • Andre 8.1.1

       3 October 2021 at 1:16 pm

       My impatience has more to do with having my actual Bill of Rights rights continuing to be curtailed because some won't get the vaccine that is now readily available.

       If there hadn't been a vaccine readily available for at least a month now to almost everyone to get their first jab, the situation and patience levels would be very different right now.
       • Frank Macskasy 8.1.1.1

         3 October 2021 at 2:48 pm

         I understand your impatience with vaccine hesitancy. Andre. (And don't f*****g get me started on anti-vax fools.)

         I think the Number One right on the Bill of Rights is for preservation of your life. In that regard, except for 27 unfortunate folk, I think we have little to complain about. Especially when compared to Australia, Fiji, et al.

         A few weeks ago, whilst skyping my folks (they're overseas, but safe – for the moment), I happened to thank Dad that he and mum chose to come to this country than, say, the United States.

         I'm not exagerating when I quietly thank the Universe almost every day that I'm living here in Aotearoa New Zealand rather than anywhere else in the world.
         • Patricia Bremner 8.1.1.1.1

           3 October 2021 at 3:31 pm

           Agree Frank.
         • Tricledrown 8.1.1.1.2

           4 October 2021 at 9:56 am

           Good one Frank now Pandoras box has been opened how is Key going to spin his way out of being the chief of financial transactions involved in laundering money .
         • Jenny how to get there 8.1.1.1.3

           4 October 2021 at 10:18 am

           
       • weka 8.1.1.2

         3 October 2021 at 4:01 pm

         What Bill of Rights rights are you referring to?
         • Andre 8.1.1.2.1

           3 October 2021 at 4:06 pm

           These ones:

           15 Manifestation of religion and belief

           • Every person has the right to manifest that person's religion or belief in worship, observance, practice, or teaching, either individually or in community with others, and either in public or in private.

           16 Freedom of peaceful assembly

           • Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly.

           17 Freedom of association

           • Everyone has the right to freedom of association.

           18 Freedom of movement

           • (1)Everyone lawfully in New Zealand has the right to freedom of movement and residence in New Zealand.

             (2)Every New Zealand citizen has the right to enter New Zealand.

             (3)Everyone has the right to leave New Zealand.

             (4)No one who is not a New Zealand citizen and who is lawfully in New Zealand shall be required to leave New Zealand except under a decision taken on grounds prescribed by law.
           • weka 8.1.1.2.1.1

             3 October 2021 at 4:10 pm

             thanks. I get that. One of the reasons that I don't place as much support for that argument is that pre-covid lots of people in NZ were having those same rights breached. Few people, including yourself I would guess, were concerned about this. So it looks self serving now. Which I totally get, some people are at the end of their tether personally. So to speak. But it is why I think the collective wellbeing approach will work better than the authoritarian one.
           • Ad 8.1.1.2.1.2

             3 October 2021 at 5:27 pm

             The whole idea of BORA after 2 years of this is just pathetic.
             • Andre …

               3 October 2021 at 5:40 pm

               Yeah, it feels that way. But I'm not quite ready to give up on it. Yet.
   • Forget now 8.2

     3 October 2021 at 2:26 pm

     Frankly I liked your blogpost today. Especially this:

     The whole point of journalism and the media machine is to engage and inform the public (as well as sell toothpaste, pet-food, etc). The moment the public stop listening, reading, because of an onslaught of highly-emotive stories is the point they stop engaging.

     When people switch off and refuse to engage any further, journalism has failed us.

     https://fmacskasy.wordpress.com/2021/10/03/the-virus-the-media-and-john-key/
     • Frank Macskasy 8.2.1

       3 October 2021 at 2:41 pm

       Thank you, FN. That comment was based on my own experience over the last two lockdowns (which I touch on).

       Appreciate your feedback!
     • Patricia Bremner 8.2.2

       3 October 2021 at 3:33 pm

       That is absolutely right. The other agendas rather than health.
   • Frank Macskasy 8.3

     3 October 2021 at 2:49 pm

     “[RL: Deleted unnecessary reference to skin colour.]”

     ?
     • RedLogix 8.3.1

       3 October 2021 at 3:13 pm

       Skin colour is an immutable characteristic that has no essential relevance to privilege.

       When in doubt, leave it out.
9. Cricklewood 9

   3 October 2021 at 12:40 pm

   There are quite alot of angry people on various facebook pages… amost 2 camps those àgainst the govt and with a deep almost visceral dislike of Jacinda and the orher pouring forth racist bile against the communties in South Auckland blaming them for our current predicament.

   There's no doubt tensions are rising, going to need all politicians to be very careful with their retoric.
10. DukeEll 10

    3 October 2021 at 12:45 pm

    I’m angry. I live in an ungentrified part of central auckland and the anger is palpable. Not at each other, at a government that is destroying good honest lives because of its cluster fuck of policies and it’s one size fits all approach to auckland.

    why do gangs get to roam free and have gatherings while law abiding citizens are getting fucked. lock down south auckland where it’s obvious the disease and open up the rest of the disease is and treat auckland proper as the law abiding place it is.
    • Andre 10.1

      3 October 2021 at 12:55 pm

      Locking down just South Auckland would be quite the logistical challenge. Let alone the inequities involved in exactly which suburbs or even streets were locked down or not.

      Of those I know that aren't yet jabbed, most are crunchy granola organic wellness types. With a slightly different initial seeding pattern, the outbreak could very likely have gone through that grouping. Only one of my unjabbed acquaintances seems to be kinda on the periphery of a gang. So I'm kinda wary of pointing to it as a gang related or racial problem.
      • DukeEll 10.1.1

        3 October 2021 at 1:03 pm

        Most I know are vaccinated, mainly double but a few single soon to be double jabbed.

        put a date down for the vaccinated to enjoy freedom and fuck the unvaccinated. Push them down the queue for everything society provides them until they get jabbed
        • Andre 10.1.1.1

          3 October 2021 at 1:04 pm

          Right on, brutha.
          • RedLogix 10.1.1.1.1

            3 October 2021 at 1:23 pm

            Interesting how the whole meaning of words have been flipped here. I'm reading lefties happy to plunge people into poverty because they're reluctant to submit to a state mandated medical intervention. You do realise that a decade ago that would have been a 'far right' agenda.

            And you wonder why people don't trust the vaccines. With shills like you guys pushing the big pharma agenda – I wouldn't either.
            • Andre 10.1.1.1.1.1

              3 October 2021 at 1:39 pm

              Refusing to do a quick, safe, free, and effective precaution to help protect community public health, because peRsoNal rEaZonz, is an act that sits firmly in the arsehole libertarian part of the political spectrum.

              Leftie political thought tends to emphasise community responsibility and actions over individual rights to do things that may harm the community.
              • Ad …

                3 October 2021 at 1:51 pm

                COVID resistance puts the left-right thing into a general gravitational field of capacious cosmic proctological black-holery.

                Anarchists and fringe off-gridders hang with crystal-worshippers who slide into both recreational and habitual drug takers and then dealers and then criminal gangs distributers and then the criminal networks and the black economy generally which leads straight into east Asian major distributors and gambling networks and from there into the edges of their key customers the builders and developers so from there it's a pretty easy slide to some of our hardest-edged brutal capitalists in there. It all made sense to me as I was typing anyway.
                • Patricia Bremner …

                  3 October 2021 at 2:09 pm

                  What did john Key say Ad? "Never miss using a crisis" or something similar.
                  • alwyn …

                    3 October 2021 at 2:40 pm

                    The person who certainly did use the statement, although using the words "never let a serious crisis go to waste", was Rahm Emanuel who was Obama's Chief of Staff before becoming Mayor of Chicago.

                    I don't believe that John Key ever used the words. If you can find that he did I would be most interested in knowing when he did so.

                    The most famous person who is supposed to have said it was Churchill. Nobody has found where he did say it though.
                    • Patricia Bremner …

                      3 October 2021 at 7:32 pm

                      You are correct Alwyn. I misremembered something written by Trotter. My bad.
              • RedLogix …

                3 October 2021 at 3:16 pm

                I understand the moral mandate COVID has given to collective action. It's what you are choosing to do with it which I find disturbing.
                • weka …

                  3 October 2021 at 3:29 pm

                  especially given we have other, quite good, choices currently.
                  • Andre …

                    3 October 2021 at 3:35 pm

                    Go on, be specific.

                    What are these "other, quite good, choices currently" ?
                    • weka …

                      3 October 2021 at 3:42 pm

                      Continue with the vaccine roll out, focus on groups that can be encouraged, give them better access and support.

                      Teach people resiliency skills, especially those struggling the most. Put more resources into mental health promotion as well as mental health services.

                      Look at the crisis as opportunity and give people proactive pathways instead of only fear based ones. People response very well to this.

                      Focus on collective good, where the people who weren't experiencing collective good before the pandemic can be brought into NZ's wealth and wellbeing.

                      Meet vaccine hesitant people where they are and work on strategies that will help them make the decision to vaccinate.

                      Your own ideology, and perhaps stress, imo blinds you to better strategies than force. I've been in and around non-vaccinating and anti-vax communities for 40 years, I know this part of the problem pretty well, and what you are suggesting will make things worse.

                      edit: the reasons people don’t vaccinate are varied. The solutions lie in that. That’s what I mean by meet people where they are.
                    • DukeEll []

                      3 October 2021 at 5:31 pm

                      I find it hilarious the apologists for the socially inept, low iq, “vaccine hesitant” are the same that scream loudest about the “tax hesitant” for societal harm tax avoidance causes.

                      weka, you’re normally sound and reasonable. Why would you allow for people to not Pull their weight for the good of society as a whole on the 2nd most important issue we face as a global race right now?
                    • Andre …

                      3 October 2021 at 3:49 pm

                      @weka Have you any idea how much resource is already going into efforts like this for a very paltry return?

                      How much skilled practitioner time do you think these vaccine hesitants are entitled to waste trying to overcome their irrationalities?
                    • weka …

                      3 October 2021 at 3:53 pm

                      Down south, much of the population has been relatively buffered from covid by Auckland's response. We haven't had community transmission here for a really long time, well over a year. People seem generally pretty good about scanning, signing in, masks, and I was pleased to see how quickly people got back into the swing of it when we went into L4. I think hand washing needs some more messaging.

                      Look at the map in this article.

                      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-who-will-be-top-town-of-the-covid-vaccine-rollout/DYOMGPAOWA6Z62BGT2KWE3SUPE/

                      The reasons why some places are better vaxxed than others will tell us how to reach the people who aren't yet. We should be doing social research on this as a priority.

                      NZ isn't full of anti-vaxxers, and the anti anti-vax hate rhetoric is as best a distraction, at worse holding us back.

                      I talked to a dude the other day who said he will get vaxxed if needed but is waiting in large part because of the uncertainties around efficacy, longevity of immunity, and new variants, and what the plan is over the next few years. Yes, he could probably be coerced into vaccinating, but maybe not, maybe that will tip him over into an anti-vaxer and hating the government.

                      A big part of this picture is that it's not a one off vaccine and then we're all good. Your own position seems to be that we should open the borders come what may. If that's true, why should the dude above get vaccinated given his own values and beliefs? You've already decided that what he wants is irrelevant. If we're going to do libertarian, then lots of people are going to want to.
                    • weka …

                      3 October 2021 at 3:56 pm

                      Have you any idea how much resource is already going into efforts like this for a very paltry return?

                      Go on then, give me the evidence based figures.

                      How much skilled practitioner time do you think these vaccine hesitants are entitled to waste trying to overcome their irrationalities?

                      You have your judgements (which I personally find understandable but also irrational). Fortunately public health knows that people are complex and that hating on them is not a good way to induce behaviour change.
                    • weka …

                      3 October 2021 at 8:49 pm

                      @DukeEll

                      Why would you allow for people to not Pull their weight for the good of society as a whole on the 2nd most important issue we face as a global race right now?

                      That's not what I think, so you've misunderstood. But yeah, show me people pulling their weight on the climate/eco crises, or poverty/housing, and I might come round to the idea that NZ should be a team of 5m.
            • Cricklewood 10.1.1.1.1.2

              3 October 2021 at 1:48 pm

              I do find it somewhat amusing the sudden evangelism for big Pharma not like Pfizer have a good reputation for honsety… $2.3 Billion in fines for knowingly misrepresenting medicnes…

              They're not much different to big oil and Tobacco in the way they behave.

              Like you I also find the clamour to completely fuck unvaccinated people, when in reality the vast majority of those will be from our poorest most marginalized communities unbelievable…

              I'll bet there are plenty of supposed lefties that would support a no jab no benefit etc policy… the damage we'll do to society will far outlast Covid.
            • Patricia Bremner 10.1.1.1.1.3

              3 October 2021 at 3:38 pm

              Conflation much? Well yes "Big Pharma" have a case to answer regarding practices, but vaccines do not.
        • weka 10.1.1.2

          3 October 2021 at 3:28 pm

          put a date down for the vaccinated to enjoy freedom and fuck the unvaccinated. Push them down the queue for everything society provides them until they get jabbed

          It doesn't work like that. We need people to be vaccinated. Mandating or coercing vaccination is unlikely to get us over the line to 90%. It will also create even worse divisions in society, so that the next time we need a public health team of 5m response it will be harder to get buy in. The people who have/will get vaxxed but are ambivalent about it, some of those will turn into resisters.

          Vaccine passports for bars and games will create even worse division. If we were a happy country already and not going into a stressful future with climate change etc, your strategy might work. But we're not. We've already got National and Act running Trumpian politics, and charismatic leader grifters taking advantage of divisions during covid. Let's not make that substantially worse.
          • Andre 10.1.1.2.1

            3 October 2021 at 3:38 pm

            So what's your proposal?

            Be specific, please.
            • weka 10.1.1.2.1.1

              3 October 2021 at 3:44 pm

              I answered your question above.
          • Cricklewood 10.1.1.2.2

            3 October 2021 at 4:13 pm

            Agree completely, driving a wedge even further into society is huge mistake given future challenges. Covid is a very short term issue in the scheme of things… end of the day if you're vaccinated you a very safe from the minority of unvaxxed people… no need to ostracize or be scared of them… yes they will cause issues in the health system etc and yes its a societal cost but we pay those everyday over a huge range of issues. Alcoholism, Meth, Domestic violence lack of safe affordable housing etc etc
            • joe90 10.1.1.2.2.1

              3 October 2021 at 4:32 pm

              end of the day if you're vaccinated you a very safe from the minority of unvaxxed people…

              And if it's you, as may happen in Idaho, who's triaged out of life saving therapies by the burden of the un-vaccinated?

              BOISE, Idaho — An advocacy group for older adults has filed a civil rights complaint against Idaho over the state's “crisis standards of care” guidelines for hospitals that are overwhelmed by patients amid the coronavirus pandemic.

              The group Justice in Aging asked the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services on Tuesday to investigate Idaho's health care rationing plan — contending it discriminates against older adults and especially older Black and Native American adults by using factors like age in prioritizing which patients may get access to life-saving care.

              https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/civil-rights-complaint-targets-idaho-health-care-rationing-80218791
              • weka …

                3 October 2021 at 8:39 pm

                NZ has long rationed health care. Covid is more horrific for a range of reasons, but NZ caring for some and not others is not new.

                We also have the option of not rushing to open the borders
                • joe90 …

                  4 October 2021 at 10:01 am

                  NZ has long rationed health care

                  And that makes it alright?

                  /

                  https://twitter.com/patrickgowernz/status/1444571045357232130
                  • weka …

                    4 October 2021 at 11:04 am

                    I find the accusatory argument that unvaxxed ppl are responsible for the death and disability of others in this situation hypocritical. They have responsibility but so do many people in NZ for the death and disability and suffering of people here pre covid.

                    NZ isn’t in the situation that Idaho is. We have a range of choices, including ones we’re not exploring. And before you go off thinking that’s an anti vax argument, I believe 90%+ should be at the core of NZs strategy.

                    I don’t think we should be putting all our eggs in that basket, because the vaccine strategy is quite fallible, and I definitely don’t think that throwing shit at people we disagree will induce change in them or create the kind of stable society we urgently need going into the next crisis.

                    if I were to apportion blame right now I’d look at people who voted Labour instead of Green at the last election. Neolib poverty as collateral damage is now biting us hard. Big picture, which few want to look at because lashing out at easy targets is, well, easier I guess, and probably more personally gratifying and stress relieving.
          • DukeEll 10.1.1.2.3

            3 October 2021 at 5:36 pm

            So the 20% get to dictate the freedom of the 80%?

            We are not a happy country. We are a country divided by the outcomes of covid right now. We treat the wealthy with regard as they pay 60% of all tax. We allow for benefits to the underpaid as they do 90% of the work no one else wants to. Respecting the rights of 20% to cause untold harm to the other 80% through either laziness or stupidity will establish yet another underclass for no good purpose
            • weka 10.1.1.2.3.1

              3 October 2021 at 8:41 pm

              It's unlikely to be 20% but I'm sure we could make it 20% if we tried.

              If you call people lazy and stupid do you think they are more or less likely to do what you want?
        • Ad 10.1.1.3

          3 October 2021 at 4:11 pm

          Here come the vaccine mandates. We won't be mocking the United States quite so hard soon.

          First it was all our front-line staff have to be vaccinated. Then supermarket staff.

          Now Air New Zealand says it won't fly international travellers who are unvaccinated. Within weeks that will apply to all domestic flights as well.

          Then the Minister confirms that Customs and Immigration won't let non-citizens into New Zealand unless they are vaccinated. Soon that will apply to all people entering the country – even citizens.

          We already have a "no visitor" policy in Auckland hospitals – guaranteed that will change to "no vax+test, no visit".

          Then every major employer in New Zealand is already ensuring that you must be vaccinated, or you are going to get a fast change in job description that includes a downgrade. All public servants across the country already have the expectation that they will be vaccinated.

          https://www.publicservice.govt.nz/resources/covid-19-workforce-vaccinations-guidance/

          Now wait for "no vax, no entry to all Council facilities".

          Then the biggie as we have seen in the United States: vaccine mandates for school entry, just as soon as vaccines are cleared for that use.

          This Covid Vaccination app will soon become a court-recognised GPS instrument for your location a well as your public health status. Police prosecutors will use it in evidence.

          Relax, everything the system does is good for you.
          • Andre 10.1.1.3.1

            3 October 2021 at 5:46 pm

            Closing the door to unvaxed citizens would be quite the eye-opener. I can't see that one happening somehow, but I could certainly see allowing vaxed citizens to come straight back in while unvaxed would have to do a two-week managed isolation at their expense.
            • weka 10.1.1.3.1.1

              3 October 2021 at 8:42 pm

              why would we even contemplate not letting unvaxed citizens back when we have a perfectly good MiQ system?
          • DukeEll 10.1.1.3.2

            3 October 2021 at 7:59 pm

            How do you feel about mask wearing in indoor public spaces, mandatory check ins and contact tracing via a government mandated app?

            weirdest thing about the nojabs is their latent hypocrisy on issues. These things are good as they work and must be done, but these other things that work are optional, despite how much better they are than the good things like masking and regsitering
    • cricklewood 10.2

      3 October 2021 at 12:59 pm

      Yeah the softly softly on the gangs is infuriating… especially to those who have had loved ones die and have foregone funerals etc.

      Very public gang related violence seems to be very much on the rise… look at the guy killed on the street with an axe in the Waikato…

      Love to hear from the Police Commisioner and the Minister…
    • observer 10.3

      3 October 2021 at 2:31 pm

      I live in an ungentrified part of central auckland and the anger is palpable. Not at each other, at a government that is destroying good honest lives because of its cluster fuck of policies and it’s one size fits all approach to auckland.

      I also live in central Auckland and know the difference between people who (like you) are unhappy with the government for entirely different reasons, and those who are fed up because of Covid.

      Do you even pay attention to the locations of interest? There have been many in central Auckland, how are you proposing to isolate them? Road blocks separating Queen St from Symonds St?

      Nobody likes lockdowns, but most of us aren't trying to shoehorn in a general anti-Jacinda rant.
11. Ad 11

    3 October 2021 at 1:37 pm

    Auckland will need somewhere to put its rage. It really does exist there's no denying or rationalising it. I was impressed that Brian Tamaki could pull 2,000 people – a real signal of frustration that should be respected.

    I'd like to see Minister Hipkins put public pressure on those District Health Boards who are falling behind in the vaccination rates, such as:

    – Tairawhiti (East Coast)

    – Lakes (Rotorua area)

    – West Coast

    – Wanganui

    – Northland

    https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-data-and-statistics/covid-19-vaccine-data#location

    The areas that are really smashing into the 80% vaccinated range are Auckland metro, Southern, Wellington region, and Canterbury and South Canterbury not far behind.

    It would be weird if Auckland metro got to 90% first and then decided to keep everyone else out. Contamination works both ways.

    The Prime Minister's key line today was: "No more Level 3 lockdowns when we get to 90% vaccinated."

    We are going to get to bounties pretty soon as the last recalcitrant few become obvious.
    • Anne 11.1

      3 October 2021 at 2:11 pm

      Another important message relayed:

      Both Ardern and Bloomfield – while careful to use moderate language – were clearly furious over yesterday's events in Auckland. But as JA pointed out, neither she nor anyone else is in a position to interfere in operational matters concerning the police. She went on to say that the police are looking at what happened (or words to that effect), so I think we can expect action of some sort to be taken in the next day or two.

      I sincerely hope so as a deterrent to anyone else thinking of doing something similar.
    • observer 11.2

      3 October 2021 at 2:22 pm

      I was impressed that Brian Tamaki could pull 2,000 people – a real signal of frustration that should be respected.

      That's nonsense. Tamaki manipulating his usual congregation has nothing to do with the response of the Auckland public. It wasn't a citizens' protest in any real sense, it was Tamaki doing what he always does, only on a Saturday instead of Sunday and a mile up the road. No support beyond that.

      Election result: 0.15 %, for the "Destiny" party.
      • Ad 11.2.1

        3 October 2021 at 2:40 pm

        They are indeed citizens whoever they are organised by.

        May not be your people but the protest was big and real enough.
        • observer 11.2.1.1

          3 October 2021 at 2:48 pm

          Evidence that it is "a real signal of frustration" would require some other Aucklanders to turn up. They didn't.

          You think the Destiny grifters and Mongrel Mob represent anyone except themselves? The real frustration is felt by Aucklanders furious at Tamaki's arrogance and the (so far) inadequate police response.

          I challenge you to find Aucklanders, on the street or online, who "respect' what Tamaki did. Any survey, any conversations, anything.
          • Ad 11.2.1.1.1

            3 October 2021 at 3:05 pm

            It really doesn't require anything other than what it was. As Heather Du Plessis-Allen and others are noting, the rage of protest pops out everywhere and is getting more confused by the day, with plenty of voices adding to civic respect plummeting in Auckland.
            • observer 11.2.1.1.1.1

              3 October 2021 at 3:12 pm

              So all you've got is HDPA doing her clickbait?

              "plummeting" … a measurement, such as surveys, of which you have none.

              Seriously, you shouldn't do this if you have no interest in any kind of good faith debate. It makes you no better than any talkback ratings-craver who makes things up, just because they can.

              You want opinions? Here’s plenty, scroll and get it …

              https://twitter.com/publicaddress/status/1444413170257326082
              • Ad …

                3 October 2021 at 3:33 pm

                At the moment the metrics we have is: Police stats of civil obedience, vaccination rates, and public opinion polls. Most are showing remarkable cohesion.

                But 2,000 people in a park is a real number.

                https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-up-to-2000-protesters-at-auckland-domain-brian-tamaki-warned-over-lockdown-rally/H4J5F42V3AF6UMDWLCWDE5XJPQ/

                Then several hundred people at a funeral,

                https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/126565953/police-investigating-after-hundreds-turn-out-for-funeral-of-man-killed-in-crash

                Then another several hundred people at a funeral,

                https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-police-break-up-gang-funeral-procession-in-west-auckland/OURNRWTZY7WN7SUDM4GXECS4PE/

                More gang members making courier runs,

                https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-guns-and-drugs-found-after-gang-member-allegedly-hid-in-back-of-truck-to-flee-auckland-lockdown/HJXLEPT64Z2ALV5CT2KIPV2EAY/

                These people may not be tidy washed people we like to have to afternoon tea, but their actions are little rebellions.

                The Prime Minister herself feels its seriousness, calling Tamaki's assembly a "slap in the face". Well mission accomplished from Mr Tamaki.

                https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-delta-outbreak-ardern-says-brian-tamakis-protest-a-slap-in-the-face-to-aucklanders/THXKTKMAYUC4T7ALOKI3S2YBTA/

                They are worth not dismissing, because in no small part they won't be vaccinated unless there's a way to enable a public system to successfully penetrate an outsider network.

                We might find in such rebellions we are facing the mirror we didn’t want to see. They are the people who see no duty to assist New Zealand or its state because we and the state have cast them out.
                • Anne …

                  3 October 2021 at 4:16 pm

                  The Prime Minister herself feels its seriousness, calling Tamaki's assembly a "slap in the face". Well mission accomplished from Mr Tamaki.

                  We'll see. I have been reflecting on why the police chose to stand aside and do nothing. Could it be part of a strategy to give them rope to hang themselves with?

                  First the police arrange a meeting with Tamaki and Co. They advise them that what they are planning to do is currently illegal. Then they stand back and let them carry out their illegal activity. After that they gather together all the evidence (photos, videos etc.) and arrest the ring-leaders?

                  It's a feasible ploy and T and Co. could be the ones who end up with the slap in the face.

                  He who laughs last….
                • Kevin Warburton …

                  3 October 2021 at 11:04 pm

                  Only a thousand according to police who counted, surveilled. 2000 just a rightwing media beatup as part of trying to discredit Labour/shore up Nats.
    • Patricia Bremner 11.3

      3 October 2021 at 3:46 pm

      He did not "pull 2000" Ad.

      He and Molloy pulled disparate groups and a bike club together.
      • Ad 11.3.1

        3 October 2021 at 3:56 pm

        The most effete form of bourgeoise denial is grammar-scolding.
        • Anne 11.3.1.1

          3 October 2021 at 4:30 pm

          If you are accusing PB of “grammar scolding”, I think you have grasped the wrong end of the stick. I don't believe she was doing anything of the sort.

          A bunch of Destiny Church followers who do what they are told (oh the irony) and gang members who have connections to them do not constitute a cross-section of society.
          • Ad 11.3.1.1.1

            3 October 2021 at 5:24 pm

            That's an even more effete bourgeois response than the previous one.

            They're not in my society so they're not real.

            The hardest 10% are those who reject your version of society. But they are still New Zealanders whether you want to deny them or not.
            • Anne 11.3.1.1.1.1

              3 October 2021 at 5:48 pm

              Oh for god's sake. You still don't get it. Or you can't accept ever being wrong. 🙄
          • Patricia Bremner 11.3.1.1.2

            3 October 2021 at 8:09 pm

            
        • Patricia Bremner 11.3.1.2

          3 October 2021 at 7:44 pm

          Ad Wow!!!I would not do that… I meant the group was pulled together from a mix of groups. Many not Destiny church members actually. I thought you meant they were all from the church, ok? You are right, there is probably another 2000+ who did not rally for safety reasons but are fed up. So quite a number. I think we were “talking past each other”.
    • Pete 11.4

      3 October 2021 at 5:13 pm

      What sort of pressure should Hipkins put on Tairawhiti and Northland?

      "Get your percentages up or well take funding off you?" And what pressure should those Health Boards apply to people who are determined to not be vaccinated?
      • Ad 11.4.1

        3 October 2021 at 5:22 pm

        Exactly the opposite. Fund them more, target the unvaccianted with bounties. Bonus funding. DHB's should know their patch by now. DHB's seeking to encourage vaccinations should not be going down the enforcement route.
12. Ad 12

    3 October 2021 at 1:52 pm

    Does anyone know anyone still not vaccinated?
    • Andre 12.1

      3 October 2021 at 1:58 pm

      Yeah. Unfortunately.
    • joe90 12.2

      3 October 2021 at 2:13 pm

      My brother's catering business employs upwards of 50, mostly young Māori and PI women, part and full time staff. More than half have trotted out some form of anti-vaxx/big pharma/5G/Bill Gates claptrap to explain why they're un-vaccinated.

      He's lawyering up right now as customers begin to insist on only fully vaccinated prep and wait staff.
    • Anne 12.3

      3 October 2021 at 2:16 pm

      Yes. Several people. One, my nephew who in his early 30s and laid back – too laid back. I've relayed to him through his mother that if he's not fully vaccinated by Xmas he can't come to the family do. His Mum is with me.
    • Forget now 12.4

      3 October 2021 at 2:38 pm

      I know (in a flatmate of a friend way – I avoid them myself) one who is not only unvaccinated, but was probably at the Tamaki gathering yesterday. They went from Dunedin up to Auckland (don't ask me why or how) last month and have been posting conspiracy (5G/ world government/ spiritual armour shit) memes almost constantly since. Also inviting mates over for drinks and bragging about their fake mask-exemption card.

      I find a strange fascination to viewing that thread when I am visiting my friend and they have their computer on. Apparently the (fourtunately now ex-) flatmate is planning on coming back down at the end of the month. Again; I don't know how.
      • Ad 12.4.1

        3 October 2021 at 2:42 pm

        Nothing like the breastplate of righteousness to combat microbes.
      • Pete 12.4.2

        3 October 2021 at 5:09 pm

        If your friend gets back to Dunedin and spreads covid you'll be able to stay you knew them and what they were up to. When Dunedin goes into big-time lockdown you'll be able to brag about how you knew the person responsible.

        I'm just being smart-arse but there is a little point there. If my mum dying was linked to such an event I'd ask myself if I could have done anything to prevent it. Or someone else's mum.
        • Forget now 12.4.2.1

          3 October 2021 at 7:01 pm

          He's not my friend; Pete, hell – he's not really even my friend's friend anymore. I don't see what I can do in this situation except hope he doesn't get out of Auckland. I don't personally have access to the ex-flat's social media account, so it's not like I have any proof. Even if I did, posting memes and shooting your fingers off online is pretty flimsy.

          I guess there's the fake mask-exemption card – that's got to be illegal. Even then I only know his first name and that he was in Panmure last week, plus his old flat address. Even if I turn informant, that's not much to go on.
    • weka 12.5

      3 October 2021 at 2:52 pm

      yes, lots of people, rural Otago. The reasons are varied. We should be taking note of the reasons, because the solutions are inherent in those.
      • Ad 12.5.1

        3 October 2021 at 3:34 pm

        Precisley. The German poet Holderlin said:
        “Where the danger lies, there the saving power also grows.”
        Remarkably optimistic sentiment.
    • Ross 12.6

      3 October 2021 at 3:26 pm

      Yes, me. 🙂
      • Macro 12.6.1

        3 October 2021 at 3:33 pm

        
        • weka 12.6.1.1

          3 October 2021 at 3:56 pm

          are you angry at everyone that isn't vaccinated?
          • Macro 12.6.1.1.1

            3 October 2021 at 4:04 pm

            Yes. Unless they have a very good reason not to be. They are holding the rest of the country to ransom.
            • weka 12.6.1.1.1.1

              3 October 2021 at 4:07 pm

              how do you know if someone has a very good reason or not? Seems like anger is the default position, and the exemption is sometimes tagged on the end, but usually not. That's another reason for people to be nervous.
              • Macro …

                3 October 2021 at 4:30 pm

                The number of eligible people who remain unvaccinated in NZ is according to Jacinda today in the order of 800,000. You cannot tell me that there are that many who are immunocompromised, or with a rare blood disorder, or similar condition that would make it dangerous for them to receive the vaccine.

                Over the past 4 weeks there has been ample opportunity for people to book an appointment or roll up at a pop-up someplace and get vaccinated. At one of her daily briefings the PM noted that we had more than enough stock in the country, and the personnel capacity to be vaccinating up to 90,000 + per day from here on in. The current rate is around 1/2 that number.

                I realise that down south things look a little different to where we are situated in the north and a more laid back attitude to these things pertains, but the south will remain at level 2 just like the rest of us until the situation in and around south Auckland is controlled. As we have seen today, it only takes someone to cross over the boundary with the virus for it to spread to the rest of the country. Believe me, we in the Coromandel heaved a sigh of relief that the whole of the Waikato was not placed into lockdown today. Even so, there are many of us who are cut off from family in Auckland, and are just as anxious as those locked down just a few miles away that things progress towards a time when we can safely be together again.
            • Andre 12.6.1.1.1.2

              3 October 2021 at 4:11 pm

              What do you consider very good reason not to be?

              For me, the only good reasons I'm aware of are: prior history of allergic reaction to PEG, and being a male aged 12 to 35ish with enough history of heart problems to have regular contact with a specialist cardiologist and that cardiologist recommends not.

              Those two are it, as far as I'm aware.
              • Cricklewood …

                3 October 2021 at 4:31 pm

                Ok here's one for you, a friends mum (in Europe) had a severe reaction (blood clot) nearly died and is recorded in official stats as vaccine related. There's no chance in hell she will take a pfizer vaccine after her what happened to her mum… should she be exempt?
                • Macro …

                  3 October 2021 at 4:38 pm

                  Why not refer them to this page.

                  https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/safety/Alerts/COVID-19-vaccine-blood-clots.asp

                  Medsafe has finished an initial evaluation of international reports of a rare syndrome of blood clots (thrombosis) occurring with bleeding (due to thrombocytopenia) and platelet factor 4 antibodies. To date, all the cases that have been reported after vaccination are linked to the first dose of Vaxzevria (AstraZeneca) or the Janssen COVID-19 vaccines. These vaccines are not currently used in New Zealand.

                  There have been reports of blood clots internationally after vaccination with Comirnaty. Medsafe’s assessment is that there is no indication that these cases are in any way similar to the TTS cases reported with the other COVID-19 vaccines. This assessment was endorsed by New Zealand’s COVID-19 Vaccine Independent Safety Monitoring Board (CV-ISMB) on 22 April 2021.

                  Up to 22 April 2021, the Centre for Adverse Reaction Monitoring (CARM) has received three cases of thrombosis (one stroke, one deep vein thrombosis and one cerebral venous sinus thrombosis). There was no evidence of bleeding in any of these cases. Following review by CARM and the CV-ISMB, none of these cases was considered to be related to vaccination. The number of cases of thrombosis reported following vaccination is lower than the expected number occurring without vaccination. There are over 3,000 cases of thromboembolism and more than 10,000 cases of stroke requiring hospital treatment per year in New Zealand.
          • Pete 12.6.1.1.2

            3 October 2021 at 6:40 pm

            Saw this on an American site:

            "Lied to my parents about having to work on Thanksgiving. I don't want to associate with their unvaccinated asses and listen to their antivax bullshit anymore."
    • Patricia Bremner 12.7

      3 October 2021 at 3:51 pm

      One friend had to wait because of another medical treatment, she stayed home till her first shot was two weeks in. She has just had her second 6 weeks in and is coming to dinner to celebrate both medical interventions in 2 weeks time. Oldies are goodies
      • Ad 12.7.1

        3 October 2021 at 5:26 pm

        Be gentle with her. That second shot shook me around for a day.
        • Forget now 12.7.1.1

          4 October 2021 at 1:15 pm

          It was more like two for me (starting the morning after the second jab around noon). Feeling able to juggle more than one thought in my mind again now though.
    • Herodotus 12.8

      3 October 2021 at 9:57 pm

      My family has 4 that will not vax, 2 of them have power of attorney for their parent. And that is the Māori side of the family, both degreed up and run their own sucessful businesses and 1 fitness fanatic non Māori that only will only allow natural substances into their body. So that would make it 90:10. I am sure over time all will be vaxed as the barriers for travel will mean compliance.
      • Macro 12.8.1

        4 October 2021 at 9:36 am

        1 fitness fanatic non Māori that only will only allow natural substances into their body.

        They will have no choice over one "natural" substance entering their body – it's called Covid.
13. SPC 13

    3 October 2021 at 1:55 pm

    Those Aucklanders who wanted the end of borders should not have pressed for the move down to Level 3.

    Last year it was the month at Level 4, month at level 3 month at Level 2 to realise elimination – it required 6 weeks at Level 4 with delta.
14. Ric 14

    3 October 2021 at 2:13 pm

    In Auckland first doses of the vaccine are at 83.9 per cent of eligible people.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-hamilton-raglan-move-to-alert-level-3-after-new-cases-in-waikato-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-announces-33-new-cases-in-total-15-unlinked/GY2UQQQVAB75Z777CBLO4ZK5YI/

    Not pay walled.

    I cannot understand why they let truck drivers who are not vaccinated cross the Auckland boundary.

    A way to increase vaccination rates would be to go into schools in 2 weeks when the school holidays finish.
15. observer 15

    3 October 2021 at 2:38 pm

    The PM spelled it out at 1 pm as clearly as anyone could ask … get vaccinated or get Covid. The new cases are unvaccinated, QED.

    Auckland won't be going to level 2 tomorrow and that's a pain but it's a justified pain. The alternative is worse.
    • SPC 15.1

      3 October 2021 at 2:43 pm

      It look likes a month at Level 4, month (October) at Level 3 – then because/if vaccination rates are high enough down to Level 2 (November).

      Maybe the regional border (presuming it lasts till then because there is little or no spread outside Auckland/North Island) down for December – as vaccination rates get up nationwide.
16. weka 16

    3 October 2021 at 2:49 pm

    Good post Micky, and very much appreciated at this time, especially coming from someone in Ak.
17. joe90 17

    3 October 2021 at 3:14 pm

    Must listen for Angry Aucklanders.

    https://twitter.com/toby_etc/status/1444468190415757314

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/2018814766/ryan-salter-making-difficult-decisions-about-rationing-medical-care
    • SPC 17.1

      3 October 2021 at 3:35 pm

      The riposte to those who claim lock downs adversely impact the health care system.
    • Patricia Bremner 17.2

      3 October 2021 at 3:54 pm

      Thank you for that clarification of what could happen.
    • weka 17.3

      3 October 2021 at 3:58 pm

      yep. Those are the people high on my list of who to listen to right not (and actually the whole pandemic).
    • Kathiravelu Ganeshan 17.4

      3 October 2021 at 11:45 pm

      Some of these "angry" people are angry for other reasons. They don't care about other people dying – they have had their vaccinations. They want to bring down the Labour Govt – so they would love to see the hospitals overrun – at least that is what I think.
18. SPC 18

    3 October 2021 at 3:56 pm

    What happens when there are lock downs (without elimination) succeeded by high levels of community spread over running the health system capacity.

    The NHS says the backlog will last for years.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-58698189
19. RosieLee 19

    3 October 2021 at 3:59 pm

    Why on earth are we giving this woman – HdPA – the time of day? She is a National party shill.
    • rod 19.1

      3 October 2021 at 5:19 pm

      
    • Kathiravelu Ganeshan 19.2

      3 October 2021 at 11:40 pm

      More dangerous than Brian Tamaki and even Covid – undermining the efforts of the Team of 5 Million
    • Patricia Bremner 19.3

      4 October 2021 at 4:52 pm

      That photo must be much earlier?
20. Jester 20

    3 October 2021 at 5:03 pm

    I'm an angry Aucklander and am sick of the level 3 lockdown, and sick of West Auckland gangs flouting the rules for a funeral, and sick of Brian Tamaki flouting the rules and gathering in huge numbers and keeping the rest of us who are vaccinated following the rules reluctantly
21. Jackel 21

    3 October 2021 at 6:07 pm

    The plans put into effect months ago are now playing out their final stages albeit somewhat disrupted by a delta outbreak. What will soon be required is not plans but rather precision and vigilance. Getting angry may make you feel better but it won't solve anything by itself.
    • Kathiravelu Ganeshan 21.1

      3 October 2021 at 11:38 pm

      I agree. Instead of getting angry, people should do whatever they can to promote vaccinations.
22. SPC 22

    3 October 2021 at 7:34 pm

    It might help if the government improves support for small business on rent costs during lock downs.

    Last year arbitration was all Winston Peters would agree to, but it's the large businesses that can afford the legal costs.

    What about

    Level 4 – the tenant pays 25%, the landlord receives 33% – the government provides 8% (4% gratis and 4% as an interest free loan the business pays back).
    Level 3 – the tenant pays 33%, the landlord receives 50% – the government provides (8% gratis and 8% as an interest free loan)
    Level 2 – the tenant pays 50%, the landlord receives 66% – the government provides 8% gratis and 8% as an interest free loan)

    Of course essential businesses that operate at Level 4 not included, nor those "office" staff firms that still earn income by having people work at home.

    Apart from limiting government assistance to small businesses only, another way to limit cost on government is to have the total rent paid be 25%, 33% or 50% in the cases of larger commercial landlord firms.
    • Graeme 22.1

      3 October 2021 at 8:26 pm

      The ADLS lease says "a fair proportion of the rent and outgoings ceases to be payable". Now putting aside the difficulty of lawyers and fair in the same sentence, this is going to be different in every circumstance. Some tenants will have no adverse effect on their ability to pay their rent when locked out, others will have no ability to pay their rent or any other cost. Some may not be able to operate from their premises but have a dramatically increased revenue. So in some cases 100% may be fair, in other cases it could be nil. A prescribed formula will be a handout to some and grossly unfair to others. There's also a lot of experience in working out what's fair now, not really the case on 23/3/20 but we got there very quickly.

      The arbitration package in response to the first lockdown was for Government funded arbitration where parties couldn't agree. Hardly anyone took it up because all the wide boys and girls on both sides suddenly became very agreeable once arbitration became affordable for the small tenant or landlord.
      • SPC 22.1.1

        3 October 2021 at 8:47 pm

        Last year arbitration was all Winston Peters would agree to, but it's the large businesses that can afford the legal costs.

        This provides some detail as to the range of rent liability faced

        https://hobec.co.nz/news-resources/2020/april/update-the-adls-lease-and-epidemics

        I still think that government could identify those at greater risk – whether tenant, or landlord, and provide some input.
        • Graeme 22.1.1.1

          3 October 2021 at 11:04 pm

          SPC, that's old news. We've been there and got through it. It was also 18 months ago, and if a lessee, and landlord, hasn't got their head around the current reality then they should be reflecting on their suitability to be in business.

          If people thought that further lockdowns weren't going to happen they haven't been paying attention. Lots of businesses have made strategic decisions that have enabled them to work through and around any covid restrictions. We made them 3 years ago and I know many who had similar strategic outlooks, some who inspired us, some who made them in the last 18 months. All those businesses are currently ranging from surviving to thriving. Some are in sectors that that you'd think would be toast. Being prepared for adverse events is what you should be doing in business, not sticking your paw out and socialising that cost, but hey, that's how a lot of NZ business, and the National Party, thinks.

          There is already good support for business with the three wage subsidies since August 17, and the two rounds of Resurgence Support.
23. georgecom 23

    3 October 2021 at 9:28 pm

    a few bottom lines, ie realities.

    Covid19 has buggered many things up for many people. Everyone has a story to tell and many people can report reasons why they can be angry, frustrated or bitter. People will react from frustration and anger. Obviously duplessisallen is angry or frustrated or bitter about something that is effecting her. I have bouts of the same. I have a tantrum, get over it and get on as best I can. I trust duplessisallen will do the same.

    MIQ stuff is pretty problematic, yes. We pretty much traded off problems at the border for prolonged periods of freedom and economic resilience over the past 18 months. I myself am comfortable with that trade off.

    We also traded off problems at the border with time to get vaccinated and keep covid deaths low. An ideal situation? far from it. compared to the cluster fucks we have seen overseas we have gotten of lightly.

    We all had hoped we could avoid covid back in the community and start to open up in 2022 on our terms. Covid has proven differently. The one benefit, if you can call it that, a huge surge in vaccinations which has likely put us weeks ahead of where we would have been had level 1 continued.

    The outbreak has been stopped, we are now working through containment. Auckland must be frustrated as hell. Those in the Waikato won't be much pleased with 5 days at a minimum at level 3 either. We are facing what many countries have had a year or more of.

    At some point in the nearish future we will open borders quite a bit more and will have covid incursions. Those who choose not to be vaccinated will quite possibly become infected. If they recover they will have a level of immunity. Might be a pretty uncomfortable trip to get there. Might also be a fatal experience. If that is the fate of the final 10% all you can really say is you sow – you reap.
    • georgecom 23.1

      3 October 2021 at 10:33 pm

      Auckland is currently running 83% first dose of pfizer. that puts to rest the idea that nz vaccination rates will top out at 80%. A dose of covid reality helps focus the mind. One option to reach the last few percent might be to offer the Janssen vaccine, should it's arrival be imminent. Those who have grave reservations with pfizer or those who are unlikely to get 2 jabs – homeless, itinerant, remote – make it known they won't be as well protected as with pfizer vaccine but will be much better protected than those who follow Brian Tamaki
    • Kathiravelu Ganeshan 23.2

      3 October 2021 at 11:36 pm

      Thank you. Agree.
24. DS 24

    3 October 2021 at 11:26 pm

    We cannot make any decision on reopening until at least February, simply because we have to see the results of the Northern Hemisphere Winter (i.e. what is the death toll of endemic Covid, and does New Zealand find it acceptable?).

    Seeing as aforementioned death toll will likely be an order of magnitude higher than any New Zealand Government could contemplate… we need to move MIQ out of Auckland. Queenstown perhaps – plenty of vacant hotels, and a well-vaccinated part of the country.

    Closed borders, regular vaccine boosters, and localised level 3 lockdowns away from the main population centres. But first, use the stick against the residual muppets (No Jab, No Job indeed).
    • Kathiravelu Ganeshan 24.1

      3 October 2021 at 11:34 pm

      Totally agree.
    • Graeme 24.2

      4 October 2021 at 7:08 am

      Unfortunately two major problems with MIQ in Queenstown.

      First it's two hours by road to the nearest hospital in Invercargill, with two ICU beds. Dunedin is 4 hours at ambulance pace and a bit better or Christchurch about 6. Much quicker by air but still big distances. Pretty much a death sentence if someone goes downhill quickly.

      Other one is getting staff for them. Businesses that got Strategic Funding are having to try and scrape up / hire staff to complete the projects they came up with.

      Heaps of empty hotel capacity though, and a couple that would be beyond perfect, but the finely tuned health system makes it hard.

      Totally agree about waiting to see what happens in the northern winter, could get messy.

      But if we end up like NSW, what's the point, demand to return might abate a tad though.
      • georgecom 24.2.1

        4 October 2021 at 3:24 pm

        I would plumb for Palmerston North myself. Ohakea on the doorstep with a large jet capacity runway. A sizeable city and hospital. Out of Auckland, Hamilton, Rotorua. An outbreak poses less risk of locking down your large cities and/or population bases. Gives another region the chance to carry some of the load the Top Half has carried for the country to date.
25. Kathiravelu Ganeshan 25

    3 October 2021 at 11:31 pm

    I think most of these "angry" people are fully vaxed. I know for sure that Hosking is vaxed.

    Once fully vaxed the chances of dying from Covid is not high.

    If one doesn't care about other people dying, is not happy that a woman is the PM calling the shots, or doesn't like the governing party and want the government to fail with hospitals overflowing, people dying in hospital corridors, ambulances and at home, it pays to get "angry".

    This is the worst of humanity and this is the real world.
    • Andre 25.1

      4 October 2021 at 5:01 am

      People refusing to take a quick, safe, effective, free precaution against becoming the spreaders of a nasty disease, regardless of whatever complicated disinformation they may have internalised inside their heads, are well representative of the worst of humanity.

      Fuck off with the attempted shaming of those that actually do their bit to protect community health getting frustrated with arseholes that refuse.

      Those refusers can be fairly accused of not caring about overflowing hospitals, people suffering and dying because of a lack of resource. As far as I'm concerned, it is a government responsibility to issue rules that when triaging needs to happen, unvaccinated covid patients are first on the list to get triaged out.

      Because the unprecedented nature of the pandemic is outside of situations anticipated when setting triaging guidelines, normal medical ethics really don't apply. That's where the government needs to step in to speak for the community as a whole in determining resource allocation, rather than letting the insular medical silos do their business as usual.
      • Kathiravelu Ganeshan 25.1.1

        4 October 2021 at 7:13 am

        My apologies.

        I should have worded my post better, much better. I did not mean to say that the genuinely angry people are the worst of humanity – these people are doing their bit and have the right to be genuinely angry – they need to be applauded – I too am angry with the people refusing to get vaxed, and those not following the rules.

        I am more angry with those encouraging rule-breaking.

        The people who use their platforms for political reasons and claim they speak for the entire country using the word "we" and saying they are "angry" are the ones I am calling the worst of humanity.

        It would help if those with a public profile did whatever they could to encourage vax uptake instead of promoting rule breaking and pretending they represent all Kiwis and getting "angry". I read somewhere that Kerre will join Tamaki at the next protest – How does this help?
        • Tricledrown 25.1.1.1

          4 October 2021 at 9:24 am

          Tamaki just another gang / cult leader who breaks the law defrauds cult members for personal gain and notoriety.
          • georgecom 25.1.1.1.1

            4 October 2021 at 12:31 pm

            A self aggrandising ______ (insert your own term here)
26. tsmithfield 26

    4 October 2021 at 9:49 am

    What annoys me is that the government appears to have largely wasted the amount of time so far as preparing for this outbreak is concerned.

    One of the main areas of concern for me is that we appear to have done little about increasing our ICU capacity so that we had sufficient capacity to deal with increased hospitalisation rates associated with an outbreak.

    One of the main reasons for that seems to me to be the inflexible immigration settings that made it very difficult to get qualified ICU people into the country and keep them here.
    • Forget now 26.1

      4 October 2021 at 1:10 pm

      ICU staffing is certainly an issue – there's not much point in building facilities if there is no one there to work them. But unless the DHBs get a large funding increase, they are unlikely to hold onto the staff they have, let alone recruit more!

      The New Zealand Nurses Organisation (NZNO) says it will withdraw its strike action plans for 19 August after a community case of COVID-19 in Auckland has led to a nationwide lockdown.

      NZNO Industrial Services Manager Glenda Alexander said people’s health and wellbeing have to remain our number one priority.

      “Our issues are important, but it would not be safe or responsible for us to continue with a strike if the country is under lockdown.

      https://www.nzno.org.nz/about_us/media_releases/artmid/4731/articleid/5315/nurses-withdraw-strike-action-after-lockdown-declared
      • tsmithfield 26.1.1

        4 October 2021 at 1:20 pm

        Even though I am on the right wing of politics I highly support the nurses etc getting paid what they are worth. There is no point us training up medical staff if they are enticed over to Australia.

        One of the main factors in determining that is the rate they can get paid in Australia. We may not be able to match that exactly. But it needs to be high enough so that is not worth the hassle of shifting to another country.

        It is a false economy to underpay our medical professionals.
        • Patricia Bremner 26.1.1.1

          4 October 2021 at 4:55 pm

          
27. coreyjhumm 27

    5 October 2021 at 4:08 pm

    Heather is a lunatic and the right have no solutions other than complaining but people are angry and the government has noticed.

    I know it's not popular as a lefty to defend the hospitality industry but the majority of employees in it are young people who the longer restrictions nationwide go on the longer their workplaces are running at a loss and the more businesses and jobs go under. The more bars and cafes that go under the less places for our performing arts industries, musicians , comedians poets to earn an income and more devastation to that industry especially since we can't have a venue run at full capacity. It's decimating industries and lives and communities.

    This can't be helped though, it'll be worse if we keep going in and out of lockdown so we have to do everything to get people vaccinated and that should include no jab no benefit, no jab no state house, no jab no pharmac subsidized medication, no jab not tax payer funded anything. It's time.

    If you're not getting vaccinated and claim society has no right to tell you what to do then you are breaking your part of the social contract and are not entitled to safety nets provided and paid for by tax payers whose industries suffer everytime we lockdown.

    If employees have to get vaccinated for work or to apply for a job, then beneficiaries should have to be vaxed to recieve money from society.

    To those who think that's crazy, the public will overwhelmingly agree with a no jab no dole, any stick or carrot the govt can use to get people vaxed should be used and that should include benefits, state housing, acc subsidized medicine, healthcare, public education anything funded by the public should be refused to the Unvaxxed, the private market will be doing the same soon

    Soon private companies will be refusing entry to the unvaxxed , you won't be able to go to a cafe, bar, supermarket, pool, get on a bus train or plane if you're not vaccinated you won't be able to travel by food, get a job, go to your bank, rent a house get a plumber or sparkie or tradie in to your house or get a coffee very soon.

    You do not have a right to risk disease or economic hardship on others due to you being a brainwashed idiot.

    You wanna be Unvaxxed ? Sweet go get Brian Tamaki and the looney tunes to feed and house you.

    It's time to use every carrot, every stick.

    You can't make it mandatory to get vaxed but you can make life utterly impossible if you don't get vaxed

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