Open mike 13/08/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 13th, 2012 - 279 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

279 comments on “Open mike 13/08/2012 ”

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  2. xtasy 2
    13 August 2012 at 3:39 am

    Dear Jacinda

    I trusted you so much, had so much hope you would work for a real change and address the injustices, mean ness and crime that are committed by this government!@

    I am disappointed with you and Labour.

    In other countries with a Labour history things are dealt with more resolutely. I hope you learn, and I share with yo u this vide:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=HBih0c689cI&NR=1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=HBih0c689cI&NR=1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbROYuEEpYw&feature=related

    NO hope for Labour in NZ, maybe the Greens now, learning quickly.

    Basta, not enough.

    Buenas noches.

    • Bored 2.1
      13 August 2012 at 8:40 am

      Xtasy, (plus Robert and Paddy), is this blog a bit like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic? Fiddling whilst Rome burns? Discussing arcane ideological theories like bishops questioning how many saints can dance on the head of a needle?

      Fekk I am so bored by the politics of our opposition parties, the stupidity of trying to change the status quo for the same staus quo (lite). Time for Jacinda et al to go forth permanently, they have outlived their usefulness, their current paradigm is passe, finito.

    • muzza 2.2
      13 August 2012 at 1:07 pm

      “I trusted you so much,”

      –Ill assume you were not being serious X – Jacinda is a product of the system, and has been playing politics for well more than half her adult life already, aty the age of just over 30.

  3. Robert Atack 3
    13 August 2012 at 6:52 am

    Not even a spoonful of sugar could help
    By Guy McPherson August 10, 2012

    Television anchor Edward R. Murrow is credited with this expression: “Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn’t mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”

    Murrow understood the power of television to misinform the masses. This strategy has worked brilliantly on every front, but none more pronounced than the all-important issue of global climate change. Seeking “balance” on the idiot box has meant presenting two sides to a one-sided issue until it’s become too late to address the crisis.

    It’s now too late.
    Feel the burn

    http://transitionvoice.com/2012/08/not-even-a-spoonful-of-sugar-could-help/

    • Lanthanide 3.1
      13 August 2012 at 9:11 am

      Extinction by 2030? Not likely. Unless by “our extinction” he means industrialised society, which I’d give 50/50 odds by 2030. But humans will live for at least a century or two more, easily.

      • Colonial Viper 3.1.1
        13 August 2012 at 10:29 am

        One thing I’m worried about is the inability to properly shut down and contain the dozens of nuclear reactors around the world.

        If that could be sorted I think humans could carry on for quite a long time. Not multi-billions of us, but certainly up to a billion or so.

        • weka 3.1.1.1
          13 August 2012 at 11:04 am

          me too.
           

          We’re headed for extinction via nuclear meltdown
          Safely shuttering a nuclear power plant requires a decade or two of careful planning. Far sooner, we’ll complete the ongoing collapse of the industrial economy. This is a source of my nuclear nightmares.
          When the world’s 443 nuclear power plants melt down catastrophically, we’ve entered an extinction event. Think clusterfukushima, times 400 or so. Ionizing radiation could, and probably will, destroy every terrestrial organism and, therefore, every marine and freshwater organism. That, by the way, includes the most unique, special, intelligent animal on Earth.
           

          http://transitionvoice.com/2011/11/three-paths-to-near-term-human-extinction/
           
          Anyone care to critique that and offer mitigation scenarios?

          • Lanthanide 3.1.1.1.1
            13 August 2012 at 1:00 pm

            Living in areas far away from the nuclear contaminants should be fairly doable. Higher risk of cancer and such but humans have survived with far higher mortality rates than the present.

            • McFlock 3.1.1.1.1.1
              13 August 2012 at 1:24 pm

              yeah – people have moved (illegally) back into the chernobyl exclusion zone.
                         
              Another reason tobacco should be fine – it only knocks years off your life if you were going to live past 50 without getting terminal thyroid cancer anyway 🙂 

              • weka …
                13 August 2012 at 1:45 pm

                Are they able to grow all their own food there? ‘Cos that’s the scenario that McPherson is on about. We have to live in the radiation soup, and grow all our food there. Not much left in the way of modern medicine either presumably.
                 
                I’d like to see someone knowledgeable compare Chernobyl to what McPherson is suggesting in terms of radiation levels, exposures over time, multiple events over time etc.

                • McFlock …
                  13 August 2012 at 2:03 pm

                  It was a documentary on chernobyl a few years back – an old couple in particular had moved back in and were whiling away their days with vege gardens and home-distilled potato vodka 🙂
                       
                  And the issue for most short-lived organisms wasn’t radiation, it was people.

            • prism 3.1.1.1.1.2
              13 August 2012 at 1:46 pm

              The Japanese studied butterflies near the nuclear contamination sites. In the first generation 10% had smaller wings. The second generation 33% mutations and many of them didn’t get to grow up. Report I caught on news this morning on Radionz.

            • Bored 3.1.1.1.1.3
              13 August 2012 at 1:52 pm

              That’s a nice little Pollyanna approach Lan…unfortunately there are such nasty little things as weather patterns, ocean currents, eroded sediments, airborne dusts etc, not to mention organic things like birds moving about. Takes time, but hey, radiation generally lasts a fair while (multiple millenia), and will get spread everywhere.

              Good example is Iraq: from all accounts the Iraq area is so poisoned by particulates from depleted uranium ammunition that the population will probably die off in a generation or two from birth deformities. And the area become uninhabitable for ,000s years. The radiation has already spread via carbon based life forms (Gulf War Veterans) back to the Good Ol’ USA.

              • weka …
                13 August 2012 at 1:56 pm

                “from all accounts the Iraq area is so poisoned by particulates from depleted uranium ammunition that the population will probably die off in a generation or two from birth deformities.”
                 
                Reputable links please.

                • Bored …
                  13 August 2012 at 4:24 pm

                  Start with the Guardian which is mainline and tries to stay onside with the powers who be http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/22/iraq-nuclear-contaminated-sites

                  For better links Google iraq radiation poisoning….you will get a whole heap of alternate sites whose reputability varies (remembering of course that the institutions of our power structures from the MSM, Pentagon down don’t want to hear or publicise this). What is striking is the number of Vets sites where US servicemen are on record as having related health issues…its Agent Orange and Vietnam all over again.

                  • NickS …
                    13 August 2012 at 5:00 pm

                    Except the mechanism of action with depleted uranium is via heavy metal poisoning via soluble oxides, though I’m unsure of the mechanism of action via inhalation or ingestion of dust*. Why? Because the half-life is so fucking large that the REM’s given off are actually pretty close to background, i.e. you’ll get a higher dosage from a cigarette or tritium paint than from DU. Which makes me very suspicious of the Geiger counter “tests” used by the radiation brigade.

                    Refined yellowcake is more of an issue, but that’s dosage dependant, as as far as the science available, radiation damage scales lineally to dosage, and probably the main divers are organic solvent and dioxin contamination, which is known to have major developmental biology effects and raise cancer rates very significantly.

                    As for long term habitability, dioxins will have the longest effect, as they’re notoriously chemically stable in the environment and frankly are best removed from ecosystems via high temperature cremation of dead keystone predators, like humans. Or high temperature baking of contaminated soils and sediments. Uranium however will likely become locked up in the sediment in clays or blown out to sea and removed via locking up of biomass in deep sea sediments. But frankly, the current issues of increasing acidification of the ocean presents a much, much, much bigger issue than highly diluted uranium contamination.

                    _____________________________________
                    *short story – lots of loosely bound outer shell electrons = very sticky molecule, and uranium has plenty of spare electrons so will form co-ordination bonds to just about anything. Which in biological organisms will gum up the works, but more so with soluble uranium ions/oxides. Dust inhalation I’m not sure about, probably causes inflammation and scaring though, but unsure if carcinogenic like asbestos.

                    • Bored …
                      13 August 2012 at 7:12 pm

                      All sounds very nasty when explained at the molecular level, somewhat reassuring that deep sea deposits tie up uranium…..and agree that its a (very) minor issue compared to ocean acidification and tundra methane release.

                  • weka …
                    13 August 2012 at 10:18 pm

                    Bored, there is no doubt that the DU situation in Iraq is incredibly bad. But there is nothing in that Guardian article that says the population will die off withing a generation or two.

                    • Bored …
                      14 August 2012 at 12:02 pm

                      Weka, try this link. http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=2374 gives an idea of the scale of the issue which is not reported by the msm, nor published by the scientific “establishment”.

                      I heard the die off comment on radio (probably Ecoshock) and find it plausible if not (yet) proven. For my misdeeds and bad judgement I once did a pile of stat analysis on demographics and population decline, you can kill off an entire population in a remarkably short generational time with significant causes of mortality and non replacement etc. I was hoping we could apply this principle to possums as opposed to Iraqis…

                      I do take your point, I must not postulate until proven… nor predict dire outcomes on the precautionary principle even when they are extremely likely or obvious. Foresight… that’s right out. Intuitive conclusions, forget it.

              • Lanthanide …
                13 August 2012 at 2:25 pm

                Did I say it would be fun, or easy? No.

      • Bored 3.1.2
        13 August 2012 at 11:06 am

        I read these links well prior and was somewhat alarmed. So I checked out more links and got thoroughly depressed. If it was worth a bet (i.e I could collect from you as opposed to demand something from your corpse among-st the methane cloud)…I would bet that 2035 may see the end of all we know. I am getting sick of mindless optimism, and nice little plays around soon to be defunct political parties and their machinery. We drive, the ocean dies, get the picture?

  4. Socialist Paddy 4
    13 August 2012 at 7:11 am

    To all Labour MPs.

    The world is under extreme threat. Arctic ice is disappearing faster than scientists thought it would. The possibility of trapped methane being released and triggering a run away feed back process is becoming a nightmare.

    Now is the time to put away ideas of triangulating issues to gain a smaller and smaller share of the middle. Now is the time to be brave and talk about the real issues, to educate the population rather than pander to their prejudices. Now is the time to show you are ready to lead.

    • Carol 4.1
      13 August 2012 at 7:21 am

      Now is the time to put away ideas of triangulating issues to gain a smaller and smaller share of the middle. Now is the time to be brave and talk about the real issues, to educate the population rather than pander to their prejudices.

      Yes, indeed!

      That NZ Herald article looks like a shortened version of this article:

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/aug/11/arctic-sea-ice-vanishing

      • Robert Atack 4.1.1
        13 August 2012 at 8:38 pm

        The reason all this climate change is happening is partly due to our striving for full employment with a growing population.
        Even the IEA have said something like BAU (full employment) = +6c by 2050 ?? it could have been 2100, whatever??, above about +1.5c – 2c = runaway, take the particulates out of the atmosphere (which industrial collapse may bring about) and we are at runaway now.
        The very best we can all hope for from our near future is that New Zealand maintains a degree of law and order, and ‘humanity’ (which is a bullshit word as humans are the least ‘humane’) if we are lucky the fuckwits in Wellington have a plan B, one that gets food to the soon to be rioting masses, I wounder if anyone has done a study of how much food would be needed?
        We should aim for 80% unemployment now, after all that is where we are going, so why not get use to it, if we can set up a social structure where everyone is happy doing nothing, except maybe gardening and volunteer stuff? sort of based on Cuba, then maybe we could be last ‘nation’ standing.
        We would need some way of repelling refugees, and that would include all the rellys out there = 1.5 – 2 million.
        Full employment = getting a payout from Kiwi Saver – an illusion

        • KJT 4.1.1.1
          13 August 2012 at 8:44 pm

          http://www.alternet.org/story/156344/how_less_work_for_everybody_could_solve_a_lot_of_our_economic_turbulence_and_make_life_more_pleasant

          Not just to try and avoid AGW.

          A minimum income is a requirement so that those not in full employment can survive.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome

          “Dr. Evelyn Forget [for-ZHAY] has conducted analysis of the research. She found that only new mothers and teenagers worked less. Mothers with newborns stopped working because they wanted to stay at home longer with their babies, and teenagers worked less because they weren’t under as much pressure to support their families, which resulted in more teenagers graduating. In addition, those who continued to work were given more opportunities to choose what type of work they did. In addition, Forget finds that in the period that Mincome was administered, hospital visits dropped 8.5 per cent, with fewer incidences of work-related injuries, and fewer emergency room visits from car accidents and domestic abuse.[1]”.

        • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1.2
          14 August 2012 at 12:02 am

          We should aim for 80% unemployment now, after all that is where we are going, so why not get use to it, if we can set up a social structure where everyone is happy doing nothing, except maybe gardening and volunteer stuff?

          That’s exactly what we should be aiming for but people won’t be doing nothing. Think art, crafts, culture research and development. The stuff that progresses a society without destroying the environment.

  5. Carol 5
    13 August 2012 at 7:37 am

    It’s curious that both Stuff and the Herald have articles this morning focusing on the dire state of employment opportunities in NZ, though each article takes a different angle.

    Stuff focuses on a couple of recently graduated individuals, with masters degrees who can’t find employment, indicating that this is the case for many graduates with more than one degree:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/7450046/Young-gifted-and-jobless

    A double degree or even a masters may not be enough for university students to break into a job in their chosen fields as the job market worsens, long after the recession officially ended.
    …
    Some university graduates say they have spent months looking for work, after years in study, but have given up and returned to get higher degrees to improve their chances. The jobless rate for those aged 20 to 24 is improving, but remains high at 12 per cent.
    …
    “People said why don’t you work in McDonald’s or as a labourer, but I haven’t spent five years studying to do work I could have done straight out of high school,” Mr Fanselow said.

    “It’s a catch-22. People want you to have experience, but no-one wants to give you a chance to get experience.”

    The Herald article focuses on the occupations that are diminishing in NZ due to taking jobs offshore, or businesses using the internet or IT in order to cut back on the costs of employing actual people in NZ:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10826527

    If you’re a travel agent or an accountant, you could be facing “extinction” by 2017.

    Car manufacturers, retail and IT workers may also need to start thinking about a new career path as consumers increasingly turn to the internet for services and employers outsource for cheaper labour.
    …
    The jobs that will survive were those that required a human touch such as hospitality workers, tourism operators, tradesmen, logistics workers, aged and health care and government workers including politicians.

    Oh, look, government workers, which the government is trying to cut back on, could be a sustainable employment area….. ????!!

    Maybe more of the unemployed should seek to become politicians? Could they do worse than the current lot?

    But, seriously, NZ’s whole approach to employment needs a big overhaul, with the aim of keeping Kiwis employed in NZ….. and jobs with a human touch are jobs for the future of a healthy and sustainable society.

    • Draco T Bastard 5.1
      13 August 2012 at 1:20 pm

      It’s not just employment but the entire economy. Doing things with less people is good. Having the wealth then go only to the few while denigrating those that can’t find work (because there isn’t any due to the capitalists accumulating the wealth) is bad.

    • NickS 5.2
      13 August 2012 at 4:36 pm

      On the education issue – It’s why if I get back to uni (damn thee depression, again) I’ll be aiming for a Masters of Science and then fucking off overseas if I can. Unless you’re lucky and know the right people, you oft need to have prior experience.

      On the job extinction issue – ironically outsourcing will probably cost more in the long term due to distance issues. Particularly with IT, where there’s only so much you can do remotely vis troubleshooting over the phone, where it’s a lot faster to do everything you need to if the computer is actually in front of you. And frankly, the only remote management you should have is that for the server, and it needs to be locked up tight, otherwise you’ve got even more means for arse-hats to gain access. As for outsourcing programming etc, ye gads, it’s straight economic exploitation, and if you’re going to pay peanuts, expect issues a plenty arising with complex code bases and applications.

      As for retail – you still need people for the backend with internet stores, as failure to respond to customer issues and returns in a humane fashion* results in a drop off in business or extinction. Also, people will pay premiums for staff help on a variety of products, so I don’t see retail dying off completely anytime soon.

      Actually, I’m wondering just what teh fuck Balance Recruitment is basing these claims on, and if they’ll stand up to critical investigation…

      _____________________________________________
      *Yes, customers can be arsehats in the extreme, but those ones you can have “fun” with, however ignorance is not a reason to treat customers like crap and doing so will cause your business to start flagging

    • rosy 5.3
      13 August 2012 at 7:18 pm

      NZ’s whole approach to employment needs a big overhaul

      I commented on another thread about differences in employment support where I live. Essentially:
      – Unions are voluntary, but with high membership rates
      – however belonging to the Chamber of Labour, a policy think tank for employees, is compulsory.
      – long-term unemployed are re-trained – quickly.
      – government policy is analysed for impacts on employment and adjusted if needs be.
      – job subsidisation as required
      – collectively agreed (not legislated) minimum wages cover 98% of the workforce
      – technical training
      – support for small industries and little outsourcing

      Point to note – all employment policy is consensus-driven agreements between government, employers and employees. Effect on jobs is a priority consideration in legislation. This sort of policy equates to a 4.5% unemployment rate in the centre of the Eurozone. I’m trying not to harp on – but it’s all so damn do-able. There are a couple of links on the other comment, if you’re interested.

  6. Pete George 6
    13 August 2012 at 9:11 am

    John Ansell is proposing a “Colourblind’ campaign to address “Treatygate”, including an advertising campaign and petition in the hopes of getting a CIR.

    TREATYGATE — Time to Expose the Con;

    It explains the double-pronged campaign I’m planning to end the Treaty Grievance Industry.

    But What Can We Do?

    It will take money, but I believe the secret of success is a powerful public education campaign using the plainest of English, rolling out one fascinating fact, one ad or poster at a time.

    The goal is to get sheepish Kiwis, ‘the Passionless People’, to understand what has been done to them, and to tell their politicians, “We’re mad as hell and we’re not going to take it any more!”

    If we can make Treatygate a Top Three issue when the big parties do their polling, then our leaders will have no choice but to listen and act.

    Here’s the plan…

    How to Defeat the Con

    1. Launch Colourblind New Zealand, and set a goal to lock in one law for all by December 2014.
    2. Raise a $2 million fighting fund so the politicians know we’re able to embarrass them.
    3. Petition for a referendum at the 2014 election. Question: “Do you want New Zealand to be a Colourblind State, with one law for all, and no racial favouritism of any kind?”
    4. How to make the PM obey the referendum result? Run lots of bold Treatygate ads telling voters just who has been conning them, and how.
    5. If media refuse to run these ads, use rival media to expose them as part of the con.
    6. Bombard government MPs with instructions from their voters to obey their will.
    7. Support local body campaigns on Maori wards (typically attracting an 80% NO vote).

    With your support I hope to work full-time on this project until we achieve a Colourblind New Zealand.

    The racially-rigged Constitutional Advisory Panel has already begun the process of changing the constitution by stealth, meeting mainly with Maori groups in contravention of its pledge to meet a wide range of New Zealanders.

    So there’s not a moment to lose.

    Because truth does matter.

    Critic has an article including Ansell quotes: http://www.critic.co.nz/news/article/2271/treatygate

    Ansell might get a bit of suport on the right fringe but mainstream New Zealand is unlikely to buy into his extreme dream.

    He will have a lot of trouble raising money for this, and even more trouble getting enough people to volunteer their time to get signatures. But even proposing this he is going to get a bit of attention, the problem (for him) is it is most is likely to be negative.

    • Te Reo Putake 6.1
      13 August 2012 at 9:37 am

      Linkwhoring T 🙄

    • marty mars 6.2
      13 August 2012 at 9:48 am

      you’ll be in won’t you pete – fits in with your attitude and position of creating hostility between people. Ansell is so broken I’m sure other broken people will love him and his racism.

      • Pete George 6.2.1
        13 August 2012 at 9:56 am

        The only thing I’ve supported Ansell on in the past is his campaign for a decent New Zealand flag – something highlighted at the olympics where the blag flag with silver fern was far more distinctive than a look-alike with another country’s flag in the corner.

        I don’t support this campaign in any way. Ansell is over the top and divisive, and has nutty ideas about the history of our country.

    • Socialist Paddy 6.3
      13 August 2012 at 9:55 am

      Why print it Pete?
       
      You will get an automatic reaction of disgust. Of course lefties hate this sort of thing. The treaty is not a con, it is the founding document for our nation. And this one law for all shyte really gets my goat. When people like Ansell advocate that rich people should at the same time lose their excessive privilege it may then be a subject to discuss but not before.
       
      But your post has no style. It is like showing up to a wedding and passing around nude photos of the bride.

      • Pete George 6.3.1
        13 August 2012 at 9:59 am

        There are many posts and comments here designed to get “an automatic reaction of disgust”. Do you want to ban them all?

        Maybe you only want good news comments here from now on? You’d better spread the word.

      • Te Reo Putake 6.3.2
        13 August 2012 at 10:04 am

        You’re wasting your time, Paddy. Pete is a lying racist who’s own site has many posts about bloody maari’s (myself included, weirdly) and he loves this kind of divisive claptrap. You’ll have noticed he claims to not support Ansell, but he has spread this filth as widely as possible. Just a linkwhoring t 🙄

        • marty mars 6.3.2.1
          13 August 2012 at 10:11 am

          + 1 yes pete is the lowest racist scum around – that’s why he puts it there – to anger people, agitate them, create division – he gets physically excited by it – really makes his day.

    • Bill 6.4
      13 August 2012 at 10:17 am

      Did I see something about colourblind before scrolling down at a pace? I’m colourblind! Can I be El Presidente?

    • vto 6.5
      13 August 2012 at 10:34 am

      Ansell is fucking ignorant.

      But it is hardly surprising that these issues keep arising. They represent unresolved issues around race in aotearoa and the inappropriate form of the treaty, as I keep suggesting from time to time.

      Until these issues are resolved these things will keep coming up. Long time yet methinks.

      • marty mars 6.5.1
        13 August 2012 at 11:22 am

        I don’t want to get into a big thing with you vto but consider your comment – “they represent unresolved issues around race in Aotearoa” and who is raising this – the supporters. They have issues and they are, as you say, “fucken ignorant”. I have been trying for (it seems like) years to get you to see this point.

      • weka 6.5.2
        13 August 2012 at 11:39 am

        ” They represent unresolved issues around race in aotearoa and the inappropriate form of the treaty”
         
        No they don’t. They represent the very small minority of people in NZ who think that Maori shouldn’t exist. That is what Ansell is talking about – he’s a white supremacist who wants Maori to become white (but poor and white no doubt) or just disappear altogether. ‘Colourblindness’ is code for making everyone white.
         
        Why you would want to align yourself with the likes of him and Crimp is beyond me.

  7. BillORees 7
    13 August 2012 at 9:34 am

    Go back to Kiwiblog.

  8. AmaKiwi 8
    13 August 2012 at 9:54 am

    The difference between the Neo-Liberals and the Left is their perceptions of the seriousness of our economic problems.

    If this is just a recession like all others, the Neo-Liberals can argue for tinkering while the economy fixes itself.

    If this is much worse, a deflationary depression, the state MUST intervene by employing people rather than laying them off. It must take control of the banking and credit system. It must structurally change the system as was done by Micky Savage and FDR.

    The 1930’s Great Depression led to dramatic state changes in every country. In countries where the state did not intervene to re-distribute opportunities, violent revolutions led to dictatorships. That will soon be our choice: make peaceful changes which will piss off the rich and powerful OR descend into anarchy.

    • Colonial Viper 8.1
      13 August 2012 at 10:20 am

      Well, after 5 years its clearly not a recession like all others. It also is not a classic deflationary depression as the cost of living has been going up not down – however income deflation is certainly occurring.

      One difference to the 1930’s – we no longer have mass organisations representing workers and the unemployed who can bring extreme pressure to bear on political leaders.

      This is a famous story:

      Go Ahead, Make Me

      “I agree with you, I want to do it, now make me do it.”

      Franklin D. Roosevelt
      Comment to a group of reformers. His point: Until they lead the way, they shouldn’t expect political leaders to follow.

      • Jim Nald 8.1.1
        13 August 2012 at 10:49 am

        Five years on … from the UK Guardian, 9 Aug 2012:

        “Five years on from what is considered the start of the credit crunch – dubbed “the day the world changed” by the former boss of Northern Rock … On 9 August 2007, the final wake-up call to the world’s banking system occurred after many early warnings over the toxic nature of high-risk mortgage debt. “Sub-prime” was about to enter the vocabulary. … Since the crunch, house prices have fallen, consumer confidence has plummeted and prices and unemployment have risen. … the economy continues to falter …”

        http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/aug/09/financial-crisis-anniversary-trust-in-banks

    • thatguynz 8.2
      13 August 2012 at 10:38 am

      I’m not sure that it’s as simple as suggesting that the “Left” don’t espouse Neo-Liberal values (ie. there’s a difference) unless of course there is a belief that there is not a true Left leaning party currently in NZ?

      Whilst not with the ideological fervour of NACT, both Labour and the Greens still advocate a perpetuation of the existing economic direction that characterises what has been popularised as “Neo-Liberal”. Granted there are some differences around the fringes but there is nothing that I have seen in their economic policies that I would consider revolutionary nor a step away from neo-liberalism.

      Undoubtedly its an oversimplification but I view modern Labour and National as two sides of the same coin. Perhaps this is due to the focus on the centrist vote and the continual move of what society would consider “centre” in a rightward direction?

    • prism 8.3
      13 August 2012 at 10:44 am

      AmaKiwi
      While the right were putting up state rents and decreasing everything else decades ago, and there was an effort to protest against loss of jobs there was very little response from the NZ public. Affordable housing is essential but there was little reaction against market rents by the RWNJs back then. Jobs, oh well. If you’ve got what you want it’s all SEP (someone elses problem).

      The retired need to push the government to keep the business market going so there is employment available and tax to pay old age pensions which are like PAYE but more truly PATE (the t being they, the others) despite the lovely fantasy that paying 8% of 1950’s wages set up a pension fund now worth billions. Fantasy but that idea still floats.

      The young need to claim their birthright – a job which will enable them to earn and live with comfort and be regarded as an integral part of a clever flourishing nation. Everyone has a skill and needs to be doing something. That old saying that idle hands mean trouble wasn’t wrong.

      The rest of NZ should be looking at the health of our economy, at the waste of lives and potential if the economy isn’t run properly to keep it ticking during the worst times. Whether anyone can be bothered till confronted with disaster I don’t know. I do a little myself and should do more, and some never do anything. Short sighted to let this slide continue though.

  9. prism 9
    13 August 2012 at 10:00 am

    There was an interview about recidivist drinking drivers this morning on Radionz. A statistic that $1 million is being allocated this year for the 30,000 people convicted of this, and the 10,000 approx recidivists. Just how much money does government rake in from alcohol tax??

    And the judges do not generally include treatment and education about alcohol in their decisions when convicting, one because our justice system concentrates on the punitive and secondly, because there aren’t enough treatment facilities anyway. A really vicious circle. The saying that if you don’t change anything then you’ll always get the same result rules.

    No wonder we are a small country that couldn’t. Because we don’t (think, make a plan, act to pilot it, monitor efficacy and then embody in law what works best and fairly). So we don’t get off our arses and do something, just use the opportunity of failure somewhere to criticise and fault the perpetrator (if it isn’t one of our social class or schoolmates from the ‘right’ background.)

    Then we don’t have to work for a better system WE JUST BLAME THE INDIVIDUAL and do bloody nothing of any rational worth.

    • Pete George 9.1
      13 August 2012 at 10:08 am

      Recidivist drink drivers are a major danger on the roads according to statistics.

      High-risk drink-drivers cause almost two-thirds of fatal crashes where alcohol is a contributing factor and new figures on the country’s recidivist drivers do “not make pretty reading”, a top road policing manager says.

      A Ministry of Transport report shows that between 2006 and 2010, there were 576 deaths in crashes where alcohol was a contributing factor.

      The majority of those deaths – 364 (63%) – were in crashes caused by a high-risk driver who had either a blood-alcohol level at least 50% over the adult legal limit or a prior alcohol offence.

      http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/221180/ugly-face-drink-driving

      It’s easy to see the problem. It’s not as easy to stop regular drunks from driving.

      And it’s not a young people problem, I think their stats have improved.

      The overwhelming majority of recidivist drink-drivers featured in the study were middle-aged men.

      I guess they were young pissheads at one stage.

  10. David H 10
    13 August 2012 at 10:04 am

    Now is this not just typical of the short sightedness of this bunch of no hopers in power ?

    The best games in god knows how long and the competition is just finishing. And there’s that Meddling seagull Mcully doing this..

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10826539

    Nice job and now we will freeze the funding. Good luck in Rio. How pathetic is this ?

  11. Colonial Viper 11
    13 August 2012 at 10:24 am

    Local Syrians turning against foreign funded and foreign led rebels

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsEkzai2Yuw&feature=g-user-u

    disclaimer – Russia has been pushing back on Western/UN efforts to intervene further in Syria.

    • joe90 11.1
      13 August 2012 at 10:54 am

      Hell by scooter, a video tour of Homs

      • Colonial Viper 11.1.1
        13 August 2012 at 12:04 pm

        Thanks man. War is bad, really bad. Waiting for Jenny to give it the thumbs up though.

        • Vicky32 11.1.1.1
          13 August 2012 at 6:53 pm

          Waiting for Jenny to give it the thumbs up though.

          😀

          • Vicky32 11.1.1.1.1
            13 August 2012 at 6:55 pm

            So – I am in moderation for 😀 ? What the frak, seriously?
            Having read the explanation that it’s because I am on dial up, I started using my son’s vodem, and am now on broadband.
            So, what the frak. seriously?

            • lprent 11.1.1.1.1.1
              13 August 2012 at 11:24 pm

              Ah. A definition problem.

              You’ll find that there is a auto-moderation discrimination against anything that gets a new IP number virtually everytime that they connect. That includes most ways of accessing the 3G networks that give a different IP each connection. I refer to all of those as dial up.

              ADSL and most continuous broad band wireless will have only a single IP number for weeks at a time if you aren’t powering them down. Consequently there is less chance that it’s IP or IP range has recently been used by a spammer.

              If you think of it from a spammers viewpoint, they prefer to have a different IP all the time – it makes blocking them harder. But it also means that they coat all dial up IP ranges with anti spam auto moderation.

              The only time I get moderation on sites that allow comments without logins like ours is when I am using my cell phone as a wireless access point. My own mail server regularly requires a higher verification from me before it will accept my mail fom my phone…

              But I see that r0b located a local moderation match – hopefully for the vodem.

              • Vicky32 …
                14 August 2012 at 5:30 pm

                The only time I get moderation on sites that allow comments without logins

                Two things – I am always logged in (I don’t post if I am not) and also, basically, what you say, is that your moderation system discriminates against people who can’t afford “ADSL and most continuous broad band wireless”!
                My choices are dial up ($9.95 a month) or the Vodafone vodem (paid for by someone else).
                This really tells me a lot about the SES of Standardistas! I assume those on UB/SB nevertheless have family/spouses who help support them, or are actually on National Super. ADSL and most continuous broad band wirelessis at least $80.00 a month, which is more than my usual power bill, so is right out of the question.

                • Bill …
                  14 August 2012 at 6:09 pm

                  Vicky, I’ve no idea how much your paying for your phone line and so on. But Orcon has broadband that includes your phone and free national calls for $75 per month on a 12 month contract with 2 months free service to new customers.

                  So with the two free months, it equates to something just below $65 per month for phone + broadband? I don’t know – maybe still beyond you financially.

                  ( 🙄 Can’t believe I essentially advertised. Must never happen again! )

                  • just saying …
                    14 August 2012 at 6:27 pm

                    And $5 per month less if you use your own phone with it which is to be recommended – I didn’t like their phone at all.
                    You probably need a cell though, because (and I don’t know if there is some reason peculiar to me) the “naked” phone goes down about once every couple of months. If the internet is down at the same time you need to be able to contact faults.

                  • Vicky32 …
                    14 August 2012 at 6:40 pm

                    But Orcon has broadband that includes your phone and free national calls for $75 per month on a 12 month contract with 2 months free service to new customers.

                    That sounds good, but I would not want to commit to that until/unless I have permanent work. As it is, I pay around $45 a month for my phone and $9.95 for dial up, (I have my own phone) and I do have a mobile… )
                    The reason I wouldn’t want to commit to something like that, is that presently, I can juggle if necessary – but with a firm contract, I couldn’t juggle…. F’r instance, at present, if I am better off than usual, that is, I’ve just had work, I prepay 3 months dial up, but if I haven’t had work, I can find $9.95 down the back of the couch, essentially! Thanks for letting me know, anyway…

                    • felix …
                      14 August 2012 at 6:54 pm

                      Those prices aren’t unusual. Broadband generally starts at around $25 a month if you get your phone line from the same company.

                      No idea where you got your $80 figure.

                • lprent …
                  14 August 2012 at 10:43 pm

                  I don’t. The automatic systems do. However they prevent massive numbers of spam here.

                  You are confusing an explanation with a choice… Tell you what. I could probably divert all of the spam to you to sort through manually? At present I think we’re dumping between 10 and 20k comments a month, all except less than 1% happens automatically using our systems. It is fascinating stuff to read for the first day..

                  /sarc

                  It isn’t about you, so please stop doing the victim silliness. It is about protecting the site. You and everyone else who gets caught in moderation just get caught in the crossfire. It isn’t going to change because the alternates are a damn sight worse.

                  I am tired of explaining this to you via the site and via email…

                  • Vicky32 …
                    15 August 2012 at 3:03 pm

                    It isn’t about you, so please stop doing the victim silliness. It is about protecting the site. You and everyone else who gets caught in moderation just get caught in the crossfire.

                    Eseentially, whatever!
                    If you accuse me of silliness, well I might as well be silly, right? If you think what I was doing was claiming victimhood, then there’s nothing I can do. Think as you choose. You will note, I hope (but also doubt) that I never said I believed it was ‘all about me’.

      • joe90 11.1.2
        13 August 2012 at 12:52 pm

        Like this CV.

        http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/08/02/breaking_the_arab_news?page=full

        A large segment of Al Jazeera’s and Al Arabiya’s audiences, appalled by the Syrian regime’s brutality, no doubt genuinely believes that this is strictly a battle of good versus evil. For the Saudi and Qatari governments, however, Syria’s fate directly affects their political future — they want to see the fall of the regime for either personal or strategic reasons.

        There is no truth. There is only perception

        Flaubert

        • NickS 11.1.2.1
          13 August 2012 at 4:18 pm

          It’s a massive fucking shame.

          Al Jazeera had all the beginnings of becoming a decent, mostly independent news source in the Middle East that you could rely on somewhat to provide the raw story on the ground and has done a string of brilliant new-docus on social issues around the world and in the ME. Yet we see Qatar thinks they can push a particular editorial line and get away with it and influence public opinion, despite the fact that a lot of opposition organisation in the region occurs via grass-roots social networks, which due to their very nature are somewhat difficult to manipulate into pulling the party line. And tend to spread their views around.

          As for why they don’t want to mention the issues with foreign Jihadi’s, it comes down to the simple fact these foreign fighters get their money for weapons etc from Gulf State “charitable” organisations. Despite being oft complete fucking monsters who care not for civilian causalities and ironically what to be rid of the Saudi and Gulf state governments.

  12. Colonial Viper 12
    13 August 2012 at 10:36 am

    Senior Afghan commander killed by rogue Afghan police, one day after six US troopers killed by Afghan ‘allies’

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/12/afghan-commander-killed-by-policemen

    This, after being in Afghanistan for a decade, it truly is the graveyard of empires. Maybe in another ten years it will be better?

    • prism 12.1
      13 August 2012 at 10:47 am

      CV
      You’re right. Everything will be better in ten years. That’s well known.

    • David H 12.2
      13 August 2012 at 12:48 pm

      Time to leave, just get the hell out, there’s nothing there for NZ, hell we barely even trade with them. Now I know we originally went in to help with the rebuild, then Key and Co sent in the SAS so then all NZ soldiers became targets of revenge. And now we lose 2 more young men, sent to a war for what? an ideal? nope a lie, a great big fat American lie. and now the man who sends them off to die in the name of this lie doesn’t even attend their funerals
      And the Yanks are losing men at a great rate it’s the same as in Iraq one huge army up against a lot of little factions who won?? Have you ever seen footage of a Lion trying to defend a Kill?
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p1cVZprJMw
      The Americans are the Lions.

  13. weka 13
    13 August 2012 at 10:51 am

    Well it was nice while it lasted. I see we’re now back in full Pete George thread hog mode. 9 instances of ‘pete’ in 33 posts = 27%. Still, it’s only just morning tea time.

  14. joe90 14
    13 August 2012 at 10:57 am

    From the Curiosity landing site a panorama of Gale Crater.

    • marty mars 14.1
      13 August 2012 at 11:08 am

      beautiful and amazing – thanks joe

    • joe90 14.2
      13 August 2012 at 11:27 am

      #SarcasticRover

      @LosAlamosNatLab @guardianscience IF people don’t like MY PICTURES, They can come take SOME OF THEIR OWN!! LOL BUT THEY’D DIE… lucky.

    • Bored 14.3
      13 August 2012 at 1:00 pm

      They should send Curiosity back to Earth, arriving in 2035 or there abouts to record what a methane planet looks like. When intelligent life re-emerges from the primordial ooze in a few million years they can review the strange ape animals demise, as recorded by Curiosity.

  15. r0b 15
    13 August 2012 at 11:17 am

    MMP review proposals released, see post on that topic.

  16. captain hook 16
    13 August 2012 at 11:20 am

    have to laugh at petey’s support of ansell over replacing the new zealand flag.
    a clear case of external referencing.
    its not what the damn flag looks like, it is what it stands for that counts.

  17. Gosman 17
    13 August 2012 at 11:30 am

    You lot were mentioned on Radio NZ National this morning. You must be pleased. Of course your views were largely dissmissed as having no real importance. At least you were mentioned though.

  18. captain hook 18
    13 August 2012 at 11:33 am

    ooooops.the bad smell has arrived.

  19. weka 19
    13 August 2012 at 11:35 am

    Hey, TS got a mention on RNZ, by Mathew Hooten 🙄 (a la generic truck driver voter isn’t reading thestandard.org).
     
    The ‘left’ commentator, Josie Pagani just defended Shearer’s comments about the SB guy painting his roof, on the basis that Labour can’t stand up for valid beneficiaries unless it also talks about responsibilities 🙄 :roll:, thus completely missing the point and affirming bene and disability bashing as fair sport on the left.
     
     

    • Gosman 19.1
      13 August 2012 at 11:43 am

      A tad late there weka and also you have seemingly missed the entire point that was being made about The Standard by both Pagani and Hooten. But no worries I’ll paraphrase it for you . Most of you lot are too extreme and keeping you lot happy doesn’t win elections. The people who do make a difference in elections don’t tend to read The Standard.

      • mike e 19.1.1
        13 August 2012 at 11:51 am

        So another own goal goose so why do you bother bothering us.
        Stop reading the standard and make a difference goose and don,t be a hypocrite.

        • Gosman 19.1.1.1
          13 August 2012 at 12:03 pm

          I’ve never doubted that when it comes to elections I’m not really in the mix for determining the outcome. I am pretty much a given in the right column. It is the undecideds in the middle that really count. People who flip flop from left to right and back again. Pagani pointed out this mythical hard left non-voter that some here, (and on other left wing blog sites), hope to inspire doesn’t really exist. Most of the non-voters are centrists.

          • Draco T Bastard 19.1.1.1.1
            13 August 2012 at 1:44 pm

            All that proves is both your and Pagani’s disconnect from reality.

            • Gosman 19.1.1.1.1.1
              13 August 2012 at 4:28 pm

              If you have evidence to the contrary it would be interesting to see. I suspect you don’t though.

              • McFlock …
                13 August 2012 at 4:44 pm

                what – we don’t have any evidence to contradict your and Pagani’s evidence-less assertion, so we’re wrong?
                         
                I suspect that some people would assert the existence of the mythical right-wing-voter who isn’t a goatfucker. Seems wishful thinking to me. 
                         

                • felix …
                  13 August 2012 at 5:12 pm

                  Don’t be too hard on him; remember that poor little Gossie struggles with the idea that a word such as “right” can have more than one meaning.

          • KJT 19.1.1.1.2
            13 August 2012 at 5:23 pm

            Probably true. Centrists that are disgusted by the hard right turn made by Labour since 1984.

          • AnnaLiviaPluraBella 19.1.1.1.3
            13 August 2012 at 6:54 pm

            Grosman
            Most of the Non Voters (ENVs) are uninspired by centrists. That is why they are not voting.

            Yes, most are not doctrinaire left-wing chatting about the dialectic over a Tui. They are Kiwi’s who feel disenfranchised by the current centrist politics. Their number is substantially larger that the swingers who went for John Keys’s BS. They feel rooted and dis-owned by National and Labour: they would prefer to vote for Winston or an anarchist than come out to vote for a centrist.
            The message for swinging centrist middle-classes is very different from the message for the ENVs. Their needs are so different.
            Real Labour value should and can connect with these potential voters, without alienating the far smaller group of swingers.

      • weka 19.1.2
        13 August 2012 at 12:05 pm

        Gosman, I’m fairly sure that I was the first person to post on the RNZ reference to TS and say something of actual substance.
         
        I got the point. But it wasn’t what you said. Both Hooten and Pagani were dismissing the left blogosphere because what it was saying didn’t support their views. Obviously lots of things influence voters, but to say that the political discourse (of which TS is part) in this country is irrelevant is pretty stupid. It would be like saying that RNZ’s political commentator spot is irrelevant. 
         
        Besides, I was specifically commenting on Pagani’s defense of bene/disability bashing.

        • Gosman 19.1.2.1
          13 August 2012 at 12:09 pm

          Do you disagree that both commentators on that show dissmissed The Standard as having no real sway over the key voters for determining the outcome of elections in NZ?

          • weka 19.1.2.1.1
            13 August 2012 at 12:22 pm

            I’m saying it was a strawman argument on their part.

            Personally I think in tight elections (like the last one), the polls and media have the most influence over which way elections go, which is a fucking anti-democratic travesty.

            • Pete George 19.1.2.1.1.1
              13 August 2012 at 12:26 pm

              Personally I think in tight elections (like the last one), the polls and media have the most influence over which way elections go, which is a fucking anti-democratic travesty.

              I think this is a big issue, and a few tweaks to how we do MMP won’t change this. It’s how we (MPS, media and voters) use MMP that matters.

              Once the MMP review is complete we should be looking at how the eventual system can best 9and most democratically) be utilised.

              • weka …
                13 August 2012 at 12:31 pm

                Nah, CV’s idea about an independent media is better. Thinking the MSM will change is a fool’s game.

                • Pete George …
                  13 August 2012 at 12:38 pm

                  Thinking we can somehow get an ‘independent’ media is as much a fool’s game. We have many types of media with many degrees of independence.

                  Most mainstream media is commercial so can be influenced by consumers, if they choose. And social media is has an increrasing influence on people in general and on MSM.

                  We can hope that one day we might get a government that might change the media mix a bit. Or we can look at how to work with the media we have.

                  • weka …
                    13 August 2012 at 12:53 pm

                    ” Or we can look at how to work with the media we have.”
                     
                    Yeah, you’re a real expert at that.

                    • Pete George …
                      13 August 2012 at 12:56 pm

                      And so is everyone else here, aren’t they.

                      I don’t think they’re frustrated by their relevance.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      13 August 2012 at 1:01 pm

                      PG-167 (or was it 162?) 🙄

                    • Te Reo Putake …
                      13 August 2012 at 1:27 pm

                      Pete drove UF’s vote down to 183. His own showing was even worse, 176. Mind you the 7 vote difference can be partially explained by him not voting for himself anyway! I’m looking forward to him reducing National’s vote in a similar way next election, if he ever gets his fantasy fulfilled by that nice John Key 🙄 .

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    13 August 2012 at 1:49 pm

                    Most mainstream media is commercial so can be influenced by consumers, if they choose.

                    No it can’t. The commercial MSM is run by the rich to benefit the rich. Being influenced by the consumer won’t benefit the rich. That is also the reason why we have representative democracy.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  13 August 2012 at 1:02 pm

                  Independent media FTW. Fuck the big companies 🙂

              • Te Reo Putake …
                13 August 2012 at 12:31 pm

                Electoral 🙄

      • Te Reo Putake 19.1.3
        13 August 2012 at 12:09 pm

        Hooters loves the Standard, mainly because he gets taken seriously here. And at least he was upfront yesterday on the telly about the end of United Future and ACT and the need for Key to dickylick Winston for the next two years. Top bloke!
         
        I’d disagree that the people who decide elections don’t visit the Standard. Where else are the political media going to get their stories from?

        • Jackal 19.1.3.1
          13 August 2012 at 1:20 pm

          +1 People would be surprised at how influential a blog can be, not only on the public but on the media and politicians as well…. Mainly because most of them cannot think for themselves.

        • lprent 19.1.3.2
          13 August 2012 at 2:05 pm

          Where else are the political media going to get their stories from?

          They certainly seem to be somewhat interested in the site.

          Gosman: Do you disagree that both commentators on that show dissmissed The Standard as having no real sway over the key voters for determining the outcome of elections in NZ?

          We have something in the order of 30 to 40 thousand people reading the site every month. Of course we don’t have a real sway over voters because there are 3 million voters. Nor do any of the political blogs in NZ or anywhere else that I’m aware of. The readerships are simply too small. For that matter you could as easily argue that editorials in newspapers and opinion pieces in newspapers have an small influence as well. The readers of those are pretty small in terms of voters as well. Same for radio and almost every current affairs programme.

          About the only ones that have a widespread audience are the TV news programmes. Of course those are so mindlessly soundbitten that they really offer little of substance.

          But all of these provide material for voters to talk to each other. That is usually the only thing that significantly influences voters.

          Rather pointless assertion. As TRP said, any influence this site has on voters is exerted through journalists and activists rather than direct to voters. Most voters haven’t even been on a blog

          • Lanthanide 19.1.3.2.1
            13 August 2012 at 2:31 pm

            One night I happened to be watching TVNZ7 news. It was interesting because they had an interview on it.

            Remember when TV1 and TV3 used to have 5 minute interviews during their news hours?

          • Gosman 19.1.3.2.2
            13 August 2012 at 4:26 pm

            Take your concerns up with Matthew Hooten and Josie Pagani then. I think their point is this site tends to attract the hard core left activists rather than the moderate center of the road voter who might be tempted to vote National as well as Labour. Certainly I haven’t seen anybody making a comment here that fits that description. Not to state that they don’t browse the site from time to time.

            • Pete George 19.1.3.2.2.1
              13 August 2012 at 4:32 pm

              I’ve voted National and Labour and could be in a situation to consider either again in the future. I’m variously labeled (here) as anywhere from centre to hard right. That’s just relative to the labeller, I agree that most active commenters here appear to be more hard core left activists.

              • Te Reo Putake …
                13 August 2012 at 4:38 pm

                ‘ …  variously labelled a t 🙄 … ‘

                • Gosman …
                  13 August 2012 at 4:51 pm

                  A good example of why people like Pagani and Hooten regard this site as not being very influential on the swing voter.

                  • felix …
                    13 August 2012 at 5:08 pm

                    It doesn’t need to be.

                    • PJ …
                      13 August 2012 at 9:01 pm

                      It occurs to me that it would probably never occur to Gosman that a political and/or idealogical blog/discussion board/opinion-site/whatever can exist simply for the purpose of providing and facilitating a place where that discussion happens. Most right-leaning individuals of my acquaintance seem particularly ‘results-oriented’ and would probably conclude that “if their is no voter gain or profit then what is the point, why would you get involved”

              • mike e …
                13 August 2012 at 9:55 pm

                It must of taken alot of brains to work that out pete.
                Its better than being a hard core w$$$e like you and your hard core neo liboral paid for by the giant corporations that rip the lungs out of economies .
                Vampire capitalism.
                Led by Mitt the Twit at the moment.
                The werewolf of London.He will rip the lungs out of the us economy.
                Bain capital A predatory corporate that asset stripped good American businesses for quick dollars.
                I’m not against business, unbridled capitalism it ruins good business by creating global monopolies!
                that’s not what Adam Smith said either,he was anti monopoly as well, healthy competition is a good thing
                Just about all the countries we trade with Are ruining our economy with some sort of tariff, money printing (devaluing),Subsidies, Huge military spending ,Corruption!
                So we are the only mugs on the planet by playing to all the rules when no one else is .

        • felix 19.1.3.3
          13 August 2012 at 2:45 pm

          Amusingly, the take-away from this morning’s chat is that the political media and the Labour and National PR people who presumably do have some sort of influence do pay close attention to this blog and others.

          It takes a special kind of dullness of the mind to be able to have that conversation on National Radio and not pick up on the inherent irony of the situation, but I suppose they only need to be as smart as each other.

          • Carol 19.1.3.3.1
            13 August 2012 at 3:10 pm

            Ah, yes. I was thinking something similar, felix @2.45pm

          • Pete George 19.1.3.3.2
            13 August 2012 at 4:24 pm

            Amusingly, the take-away from this morning’s chat is that the political media and the Labour and National PR people who presumably do have some sort of influence do pay close attention to this blog and others.

            And how impressed do you think they’ll be with the standard of discourse here? It more often resembles Mallard’s political kindergarten than a flagship think tank of the left.

            As lprent intimates, this is only a very small bubble in the whole scheme of things, and one that’s often unattractive to the outside.

            • mickysavage 19.1.3.3.2.1
              13 August 2012 at 4:31 pm

              Pete
               
              You may not have noticed but the overwhelming majority of flame wars that occur here have one common feature, you.
               
              Others here are obviously convinced that you are here only to make trouble and disrupt with your passive aggressive and snidely rascist comments.  For example have a look at the way you posted Ansell’s comments this morning.
               
              Rather than continuing to blame the very solid leftys that comment here perhaps your search for someone to blame should be more inwardly focussed.

              • Pete George …
                13 August 2012 at 5:04 pm

                micky, you may not have noticed but the overwhelming majority of flame wars are one sided attempts, and often with only one aim, to attack me regardless of what I post. If you look just below here I posted something and the usual trolls attacked, and the exact same topic was deliberately re-raised and discussed.

                If you want to be an exclusive club of hard lefties that harrasses off anyone you take a dislike to then you need to be more upfront.

                Why “The Standard”?

                The Standard newspaper – from where our masthead comes – was founded by labour movement activists in the 1930s. They used it as a vehicle to share their views with a broader audience – a perspective they felt the mainstream media was representing poorly. We think the same is true today.

                Maybe the blog has evolved since that ideal. If you want to be narrow minded and nasty don’t try and pretend to yourselves you ‘re a flagship for the broad left.

                Much of the active comment here would not appeal to most potential Labour or Green voters. Nor would the behaviour.

                Negative attack politics seems to be the core activity, in posts and comments. I just happen to attract some of it, but it’s far more pervasive than that. If that’s how you want to be then fair enough, but it doesn’t seem to satisfy many of you, this place oozes discontent and bitterness.

                You’ll attract better if you act better. If that’s what you want.

                [lprent: Re-read what you quoted. Even after all of this time and for that matter bans for it, you appear to be trying to spin what this site is about.

                We’re not trying to talk to “potential Labour or Green voters”. We are trying to spread the perspective of “labour movement activists”. You appear to be such a political newbie that you have not realized that these are two radically different things.

                We simply don’t care except in general terms about getting the voters voting because we’re not a political party and that isn’t our task. Sure some of us do that in other roles. But this site is here to allow people on the left to play with ideas and argue. We make it public so that people can see what we’re interested in and are arguing about. We rather enjoy having people of other political bents coming in and arguing provided that they can argue and follow our site rules.

                What you seem to fail to understand is that as well as putting up ideas for criticism, there are objectives of the site includes pointing out the flaws of political policies, flawed economics, political idiots, brown-nosing journos, and outright thickheads like yourself. This is because those are also part of the political process, which is something that you seem to prefer that others do not do. Most people around here have long since concluded that is because you hate mirrors….

                I’d ask if you get the point, but it is quite apparent that you never do think on what others say. For some reason you appear to think that examining and expressing your own unthinking and often bigoted ideas about the left is a preferable technique to listening to others or actually thinking.

                Permanent ban for yet again trying to tell us what we should be doing with the site. I’m tired of it and I really don’t think you’re capable of either learning or holding your end up in any kind of discussion. ]

                • felix …
                  13 August 2012 at 5:22 pm

                  Have you ever thought of applying any of your very helpful advice to your own behaviour? Cos seriously mate, your comments lately are reading like the notes from a therapy session.

                • mickysavage …
                  13 August 2012 at 5:27 pm

                  Pete
                   
                  You still don’t get it do you,
                   
                  Have you ever countenanced the slightest possibility that your commenting habits may in the slightest way contributes to the opprobrium that you experience?
                   
                  Ever had that nagging doubt?
                   
                  Ever thought the passive aggressive racist dog whistling might actually upset many?
                   
                  Ever thought that the snide holier than thou retorts on how terrible we all are you then come out with might actually harden attitudes?

                • McFlock …
                  13 August 2012 at 5:32 pm

                  Right back atcha, trool.

                • felix …
                  13 August 2012 at 5:45 pm

                  “Permanent ban for yet again trying to tell us what we should be doing with the site. “

                  A pleasant end to a pleasant day.

                  • mickysavage …
                    13 August 2012 at 5:50 pm

                    🙂
                     
                    He never did answer those questions …

                    • felix …
                      13 August 2012 at 6:00 pm

                      I’m sure he’ll be frantically answering them all over at the bog as fast as his cold dead fingers can type. 🙂

                    • McFlock …
                      13 August 2012 at 6:18 pm

                      Dear KB Forum,
                         
                      I never thought it would happen to me. I was t:roll:ing away as usual, when all of a sudden I received a permanent ban! Oh wow, I felt so proud! I thought I was really sticking it to those lefties, ramming my point home again and again, paying close attention over hours, days, even weeks, and finally they said they couldn’t take it any more! I feel so proud – I immediately came! Here! And the best thing is, it makes me an oppressed mass, and bad boys are cool. I’m just like Mr Fifty Cents. More at yourpimpingNZ.cum.

                         
                      Yours,
                      Pete-Diddy. 

                  • rosy …
                    13 August 2012 at 8:48 pm

                    And a smile just crept across my face.

                • bad12 …
                  13 August 2012 at 6:29 pm

                  Applause, the recipient has been begging for it right from the point of arriving back from the previous ‘kick’…

                • Vicky32 …
                  13 August 2012 at 7:17 pm

                  Negative attack politics seems to be the core activity, in posts and comments. I just happen to attract some of it, but it’s far more pervasive than that. If that’s how you want to be then fair enough, but it doesn’t seem to satisfy many of you, this place oozes discontent and bitterness.

                  Sadly true!
                  Going to permaban me, then? Go ahead, make my point!
                  As it seems I am on permanent moderation, what difference will it actually make?

                  • mickysavage …
                    13 August 2012 at 8:13 pm

                    Vicky the thing is that Petey does not “happen to attract some of it”, he sets out with the intent of, if at all possible, getting negative comments.  It is a real wankfest for him.  The rest of us hate it, we would prefer to debate the issues.  He then does this passive aggressive stuff and suggests he is the victim.  He is not. He is a silly person who does not realise that if he wants a debate he will get one but if he wants to tr0ll he will get dumped on.

                  • marty mars …
                    13 August 2012 at 10:02 pm

                    watching over the years i’ve noticed it’s never a good idea to ask for a ban…

                • Kotahi Tāne Huna …
                  13 August 2012 at 7:51 pm

                  Thank goodness for that.

            • felix 19.1.3.3.2.2
              13 August 2012 at 5:02 pm

              *whoosh*

            • Vicky32 19.1.3.3.2.3
              13 August 2012 at 7:14 pm

              And how impressed do you think they’ll be with the standard of discourse here? It more often resembles Mallard’s political kindergarten than a flagship think tank of the left.
              As lprent intimates, this is only a very small bubble in the whole scheme of things, and one that’s often unattractive to the outside.

              And again, I agree with PG! Scary!

              • Kotahi Tāne Huna …
                13 August 2012 at 8:05 pm

                Please don’t try and stand in for him. You’re fine as you are.

              • felix …
                13 August 2012 at 8:28 pm

                “And again, I agree with PG! Scary!”

                Yeah. I mean he’s a reactionary self-obsessed bigot who displays an embarrassing lack of comprehensive ability while trying to present himself as the lone voice of sensibility in a world gone mad, whereas you’re not like that at all.

                So weird.

              • lprent …
                13 August 2012 at 10:54 pm

                Ummm I am only intimate with Lyn and my family. There are very few other people who have met me, even fewer who know that they have, and not many people who aren’t programmers who know much about me (code is an extremely effective mechanism at reading core personality).

                Most of the authors have met me only a few times at best and bugger all commentators ever have. Virtually everything that most people here know about me is visible on the web, and most of any perceived favoritism is purely accidental (apart from authors) as I haven’t found anything to be savage to them about.

                But I suspect it was just a typo?

          • TheContrarian 19.1.3.3.3
            13 August 2012 at 5:12 pm

            @Felix (19.1.3.3)

            I follow sites like Conservapedia and The Standard for amusement…you never know what the kooky ideologues are going to do next!

            It doesn’t mean following them means I regard them as having any influence though.

            • felix 19.1.3.3.3.1
              13 August 2012 at 5:19 pm

              And that’s fine, but I’m assuming you’re not a mainstream journalist or a PR person working for a political party or a professional lobbyist.

              All I was saying is that a lot of people who do play a role in shaping opinions in the wider community do keep a close eye on the arguments here.

              • TheContrarian …
                13 August 2012 at 5:25 pm

                Possibly, but I bet some of them also keep a close eye on midget porn and George W. Bush Supporter Blogs but that doesn’t mean they take them seriously.

                It would be, at this stage with all evidence pointing to the contrary, quite a large hubris on the part of people at The Standard to consider themselves anything other than a weird microcosm of what the (mostly) far left get up to when the have the run of the coop. 

                But whatever, be what you want, little man. Never give up! 

                • felix …
                  13 August 2012 at 5:35 pm

                  Frankly they’d be crazy not to keep an eye on midget porn. And yeah I understand that the fact that things are read doesn’t necessarily equate to them being taken seriously, and it would take a very naive person to believe otherwise.

                  But it would be just as naive to say that professional lobbyists, PR people working for political parties, and high-profile mainstream journalists are regularly reading The Standard but only for amusement.

                  Wouldn’t you say?

                  ps I’m assuming “midget porn and George W. Bush Supporter Blogs” refers to two things, not one.

                  • TheContrarian …
                    13 August 2012 at 6:35 pm

                    “ps I’m assuming “midget porn and George W. Bush Supporter Blogs” refers to two things, not one.”

                    Gimmie your email address and I’ll send you some links. It’s pretty filthy.

                    But maybe not only for amusement but it is rare The Standard ever cited with same amount as gravitas as Kiwiblog for example.

                    Take that to mean what you will

        • Vicky32 19.1.3.4
          13 August 2012 at 7:06 pm

          I’d disagree that the people who decide elections don’t visit the Standard. Where else are the political media going to get their stories from?

          Well, I hope they have a high tolerance for sweary ad hominens and juvenile abuse… 
          Personally, I’d lift my game and stop being such a self-loving boy, were I some of the most-loved posters here, and wanted to be taken seriously by the genuinely uncommitted.

    • Olwyn 19.2
      13 August 2012 at 12:21 pm

      Well, it was more or less the same anecdote that she put up on her facebook page. Her’s didn’t have a roof in it, but the thrust was identical – decent hard working kiwis resenting anyone defending bludgers.

    • Bill 19.3
      13 August 2012 at 12:43 pm

      As someone somewhere in TS comments pointed out, the line Shearer used was then same one Josie Pagani had used in her blog some tme back. So, of course she would defend it seeing as how Shearer was spoon fed the line by her dipshit sidekick on the grounds it was a good strategic position to take.

      edit Sorry Olwyn. Didn’t see you’d re-highlighted the fact

      • weka 19.3.1
        13 August 2012 at 12:52 pm

        Oh ok, her FB post was a while ago. Who is her dipshit sidekick?

        • Colonial Viper 19.3.1.1
          13 August 2012 at 12:59 pm

          Another Pagani.

        • Bill 19.3.1.2
          13 August 2012 at 2:56 pm

          “Who is her dipshit sidekick?”

          As far as I’m aware….policy/strategy advisor to the Labour party. I know, I know…just breath deeply, count to ten and try not to scream too loudly.

      • Te Reo Putake 19.3.2
        13 August 2012 at 12:53 pm

        Actually, there is no obvious link between Pagani’s comment and Shearer’s. Pagani commented about the difficulty of selling the proposal to extend Working For Families to beneficiaries during the election campaign. Nothing to do with being on a benefit/bludging at all.

        • weka 19.3.2.1
          13 August 2012 at 1:08 pm

          Looks like slightly cloaked bene-bashing to me. Besides Olwyn was pointing to FB not the NZH.

          • Te Reo Putake 19.3.2.1.1
            13 August 2012 at 1:19 pm

            Nah, I think Olwyn meant the piece I linked to, which was in the Herald, not fb. It got a good going over here at TS at the time. There is simply no similarity to what Shearer said, so those commenters who claimed that Shearer has nicked her story are wrong.

            • weka 19.3.2.1.1.1
              13 August 2012 at 1:32 pm

              Ok.

            • Olwyn 19.3.2.1.1.2
              13 August 2012 at 6:21 pm

              This appeals to the same sentiment, even if the details and benefit are different:

              “The hardest week to door-knock was when we were telling people – who had just come home from a day’s work earning the minimum wage – that it was a great idea to extend their Working for Families tax credit to beneficiaries. “So what’s the point of working my guts out all week while someone sitting at home on the dole gets the same tax credit as me?”

              • Te Reo Putake …
                13 August 2012 at 7:09 pm

                I guess it depends on whether she was reporting a fact or advocating a position based on that fact. The quote suggests the former, but there seems to be a lean toward the latter on the RNZ segment.

                • Olwyn …
                  13 August 2012 at 7:21 pm

                  This is something I also find worrying, and apparently it is coming up in England as well. It is the shift in focus from “those who must sell their labour to live” to “those who work.” And when the speaker smells a challenge coming up, they add something along the lines of “Of course we care about unemployment and we intend to grow the economy.”

                  Step one, the shift of focus, deftly slices off those who must sell their labour in a market with few buyers. Step two pretends that growing the economy is automatically a response to unemployment, when it is not. What is called growth now is normally the concentration of wealth into fewer hands, with no substantial employment prospects attached, except perhaps in the designing, building and furnishing of McMansions in ex-working class areas.

                • Carol …
                  13 August 2012 at 7:28 pm

                  If you read the rest of the article that Olwyn linked above/below (?), you will see Pagani is advocating a position – and, most disgustingly one that claims the Labour Party are for working people, and, thus, the plight of unemployed beneficiaries, are really not what Labour’s about….although she does confuse the issue a bit by saying that Labour will always be there for working people when the jobs disappear.

    • Carol 19.4
      13 August 2012 at 2:17 pm

      Pagani kept going on about a truck driver she talked to who said that National was for the rich and Labour was for beneficiaries, and nobody’s there for him…. so Pagani takes this as fact? Instead of challenging such false perceptions? She then says Shearer’s reference to the roof-painting beneficiary was to assure the truck driver, that beneficiaries have also to show some responsibility…?

      I would have thought the first thing Labour (or an opposition) should do, is challenge the Truck-driver’s false perceptions, and look wider at the perceptions of diverse people. Labour is hardly being the champion of beneficiaries – more it’s been targeting the middleclasses.

      At least the truck driver has a job, that pays reasonably well.

      Pagani’s constant repetition of the truck driver anecdote was just plain irritating in so many ways.

      And the dismissal of TS participants as the extreme of the left that few ordinary Kiwis take note of, just shows how both Pagani & Hooten are positioned more to the (mythical, or socially-constructed notion of) the “center”. These days that “centre” is the position of the MSM and leans to the neoliberal/neocon version of the “right”.

      • mickysavage 19.4.1
        13 August 2012 at 2:24 pm

        I agree Carol.  I would really prefer that Labour campaigns on reality rather than feeds what are often wrong perceptions.
         
        And as for TS participants as being described as “far left” I suggest that we should adopt that particular badge with pride!  If being of the far left means dealing with reality and refusing to pander to the prejudices of the ill informed then so be it.

      • Bill 19.4.2
        13 August 2012 at 2:53 pm

        sheesh If TS is generally ‘far left’, then where does that leave the likes of myself and a wee few of the commentators here? ‘Outside left’ and falling off the side of Pagani’s imaginary wee flat earth?

        • Socialist Paddy 19.4.2.1
          13 August 2012 at 3:11 pm

          The show should be renamed “from the centre right and from the far right”.
           
          🙂

        • weka 19.4.2.2
          13 August 2012 at 8:50 pm

          Bill, one of the other authors referred to you as the resident radical the other day 🙂

        • lprent 19.4.2.3
          13 August 2012 at 10:32 pm

          Yeah I have a tendency to view myself as rather right in most things. But after looking at the National for a few decades, I am starting to view myself as merely a hopeless bigot against stupidity.

      • Murray Olsen 19.4.3
        13 August 2012 at 4:10 pm

        I’m wondering if they get all this middle class and centre rubbish from the US and A. The stories certainly sound like they’ve come from an American neocon think tank, with a few adjustments for local conditions.

      • bad12 19.4.4
        13 August 2012 at 4:50 pm

        Having managed to pull the plug on RadioNZ’s nine to noon i had the delight of totally missing what was said about the Standard this morning,

        You can bet tho, that the weekends posts and comments had at least someone(s) sit up and take notice, (otherwise there would have been no comment made on a nation-wide radio broadcast),

        What is noticeable from the Pagani’s of this world is any attempt to move the discourse away from the supposed ‘sickness beneficiary cheat’ versus the ‘heroic worker’,

        It’s there that Labour want the debate held, not where it should be, the ‘real cheats’ to be found in the 7 billion dollars of due taxation criminally evaded every year in New Zealand,

        Neither do Labour wish to have a conversation about the other arm of ‘tax cheating’, avoidance, where another approx: 7 billion dollars of tax is ‘legally evaded’ by the use of ‘smart’ Lawyers and accountants to manage their clients earnings in such a way as to make it ‘legal’ for them to avoid paying the due taxation,

        i don’t think we, as in the broad left, should for one moment allow the Shearers, Pagani’s or anyone else the luxury and the lies of making the conversation about whether the beneficiaries are deserving of the crumbs that are swept off of the table in their direction,

        What we all should be doing is keeping the pressure up on the likes of Shearer/Pagani until such time as THEY change their attitudes and begin to defend those reliant upon benefits,

        The Standard tho has obviously struck a chord in at least part of the Labour Caucus, whether that chord has caused enough disquiet in ‘their’ comfortable realm to have ‘them’ re-examine ‘their’ attitude only time will tell,

        i don’t believe tho, that our criticisms/critiques of where we see the Labour Caucus as having the wrong focus should be lessened nor softened…

  20. BillORees 20
    13 August 2012 at 11:54 am

    A Christchurch “start-up” promises to mbillable fortune out of “omission free car running on compressed air”,  Mesh-computing and an innovative Solar Tech. Snake-oil.   It is called IndraNet.

    The professionals of Christchurch gets paid hansomely to put prospectus together.
    The gullibles of Christchurch put in $19m.  All gone in fees and salaries to the chosen few. And $2m in debts. 

    Who was the advisor “in a professional legal capacity”?

    Amy Adams,  John Keys  pick for Minister for Communications and Information Technology. 

    • weka 20.1
      13 August 2012 at 12:06 pm

      Links?

    • NickS 20.2
      13 August 2012 at 4:03 pm

      /twitch

      I see they think they can do broadband over power-lines…

      Which is a massive pipedream due to mains power being rather “noisy”, leading to very high information loss compared to standard telephony or cat-cable connections, which have noise filtering and spike management built into the network infrastructure.

      Hell, you’d be better of using Wi-Fi repeating stations, but CHCH doesn’t have the density outside of the CBD to make them economically effective for a mesh network at present.

      And don’t get me started on compressed air cars.

      • Murray Olsen 20.2.1
        13 August 2012 at 4:15 pm

        I loved their computer simulation of the network. Whoever came up with that has to be taking the mickey.

        • NickS 20.2.1.1
          13 August 2012 at 4:39 pm

          But they’re soooo preeeeetty!

          By the elder things it so easy to dupe rich people with pretty graphics O_o

  21. BillORees 21
    13 August 2012 at 11:58 am

    A Christchurch “start-up” promises to make a fortune out of “omission free car running on compressed air”,  Mesh-computing and an innovative Solar Tech. Snake-oil.   It is called IndraNet.

    The professionals of Christchurch gets paid hansomely to put prospectus together.
    The gullibles of Christchurch put in $19m.  All gone in fees and salaries to the chosen few. And $2m in debts. 

    Who was the advisor “in a professional legal capacity”? Amy Adams,  John Keys  pick for Minister for Communications and Information Technology. 

    • Dv 21.1
      13 August 2012 at 12:11 pm

      That is interesting.
      I looked at Indranet, back when it started. The concept looked sort of sound BUT there was too much hype in the prospectus and too make it work you needed a lot of buy in.

      What is your source for Amy Adams involvement? (I could find any on a quick search)

      • BillORees 21.1.1
        13 August 2012 at 1:42 pm

        NBR, pay-wall content. And article by David Williams today. 

      • Descendant Of Smith 21.1.2
        13 August 2012 at 9:32 pm

        In 2005 these were the parties involved in the company:

        Major shareholders: Managing director Louis Arnoux with 21.76 per cent (assuming the $5 million is raised), a trust associated with director Dan Hilgendorf with 11.47 per cent, a company associated with alternate director Peter Mcaulay with 11.47 per cent, a trust associated with director Andrew McGregor with 11.18 per cent and a trust associated with chairman Russell Fitts with 9.17 per cent.

        * Key executives: Managing director Louis Arnoux, chief executive John King and commercial development manager Richard Punter.

        http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10115833

    • Murray Olsen 21.2
      13 August 2012 at 2:30 pm

      Indranet looks like 100% scam. There’s absolutely nothing of substance on their website.

      • Descendant Of Smith 21.2.1
        13 August 2012 at 8:59 pm

        I can’t see how anyone got ripped off though.

        An “omission free car” by definition would have had full and open disclosure about everything.

  22. Pete George 22
    13 August 2012 at 12:52 pm

    Shearer is ‘happy with the behaviour’ of his MPs.

    Labour leader David Shearer says he’s happy with the discipline of his caucus.

    “Yes I am, we’ve had a discussion in caucus (and with) the caucus members and (it’s) behind us now.”

    Mr Shearer says they’re determined to stay focused on the issues that matter.

    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/439929317-shearer-happy-with-behaviour-of-the-caucus

    You can forget last week and move on.

  23. prism 23
    13 August 2012 at 1:24 pm

    Bill O’Rees and DV 21 and 21 1
    This sounded interesting so I looked up Amy Adams in wikipedia and about her there is little. She is in her forties, she went to Rangitoto College, she got her lawyer’s degree and her house was on a fault line but after the earthquake was judged fit to live in. She is married and has two children so that’s all we know.
    I looked up The Press for IndraNet and Amy Adams but she was absent. But stuff had lots on IndraNet Technologies – fascinating and tied up with Hubbards wonderful investments, ie full of wonder. I supply the links below.

    This is a very incisive report on IndraNet Technologies from Business writer Jenny Ruth in 2006.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10115833

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/blogs/eco-centric/1880269/Running-on-air

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/…/Statutory-report-reveals-risk-investing-in-Hubbard-funds

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/3490786/Not-insolvent-says-IndraNet

  24. Socialist Paddy 24
    13 August 2012 at 1:26 pm

    Blow me down.
     
    Shearer needs to do better.
     
    He has just released a press release suggesting that the Labour Party caucus has met and he is satisfied with the behaviour of his MPs.
     
    Two tiny problems:
     
    1.  Caucus has not met recently and does not meet until tomorrow.
    2.  If he is satisfied with the behaviour of his MPs I would hate to see the day where he was dissatisifed with their behaviour.

    • weka 24.1
      13 August 2012 at 1:46 pm

      I guess this is what Anne meant when she said give them a chance to tell their side of the story.

    • grumpy 24.2
      13 August 2012 at 1:54 pm

      To be fair, he does not claim that caucus has met.

      Clearly though, someone has – I wonder who that/they could be?

      • Colonial Viper 24.2.1
        13 August 2012 at 2:00 pm

        Probably happened in a bar late one night, at this rate.

      • Socialist Paddy 24.2.2
        13 August 2012 at 2:01 pm

        I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt. But he apparently said
         
        “we’ve had a discussion in caucus (and with) the caucus members and (it’s) behind us now”.
         
        This reads like the transcript of something he said rather than a press release. There might be enough wriggle room to get out of that but the meaning seems pretty clear to me.

        • gobsmacked 24.2.2.1
          13 August 2012 at 2:34 pm

          Those who say “give Shearer time” are really saying “let’s waste time”. More time for what?

          The drip-drip-drip of discontent. It’s not as visible as a big fight, but it does far more damage in the long run.

      • Bill 24.2.3
        13 August 2012 at 2:39 pm

        “I wonder who that/they could be?”

        hmm. Maybe go to the link and take a squiz at the picture inset to the right of the main story? That’d my punt for one of who the ‘them’ are. And it seems you could even call in and ask him! Wouldn’t expect any kind of straight answer, mind. That’s if there’s any answer at all….

        edit. It’s a historical link. Probably the response then?

    • Murray Olsen 24.3
      13 August 2012 at 2:33 pm

      I suspect Shearer will be dissatisfied with their behaviour on the day they promote policy that challenges the status quo. None of the rest seems to matter, as long as neoliberal dogma isn’t challenged.

    • BillORees 24.4
      13 August 2012 at 2:39 pm

      I doubt Shearer would deliberately mislead.  I suspect something is lost in translation. And the useless Labour press people (who might be complicit in the Garner screw-up) probably twisted it. 

      I can’t imaging him leaving himself open to criticism by the vast majority of the Causus.  But it is getting worse.  Someone has to tell Shearer, that when you are in a hole you should stop digging.  

      I wonder if the whole thing of becomming Leader before one has decided that Parliament is really the great life had overwhelmed him.  He is acting like someone who is bewildered or punch-drunk.   He needs a Holiday! 

      Perhaps AWOL!  

  25. marty mars 25
    13 August 2012 at 1:52 pm

    sad, mad or bad news from radionz or maybe all three methinks…

    Researchers in Japan say radioactive fallout from the Fukushima meltdown have created abnormalities among the nation’s butterfly species.

    The researchers collected hundreds of butterflies in the weeks and months after the disaster at the nuclear plant in northern Japan following the earthquake and tsunami of 11 March 2011.

    They found abnormalities in more than 10%, including unusually small wings.

    The rate of abnormalities then rose to more than a third with the second generation, with some butterflies dying before reaching adulthood.

    The scientists have called for further research into other animal species.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/world/113125/abnormalities-found-among-butterflies-since-fukushima

    http://www.nature.com/srep/2012/120809/srep00570/full/srep00570.html

    Further research sounds like a good idea, a very good idea – maybe we could pull some off weapons development…

  26. gobsmacked 26
    13 August 2012 at 1:56 pm

    I’m just going to post Paddy’s link again, it’s so good (i.e bad). Also means we don’t have to respond to PG … 😉

    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/nbpol/439929317-shearer-happy-with-behaviour-of-the-caucus

    Apparently the meeting ended with a chorus of “If you’re happy and you know it”, led by the leader on guitar, with Trevor playing bongos on his head.

  27. Carol 27
    13 August 2012 at 2:26 pm

    Thanks goodness the Games have finished.

    Well done to all the competitions (and their support teams) who gave it their all to achieve the best they can. Some are pretty inspirational.

    Hang your heads in shame all your corporate sponsors who used such competitors’ efforts in bad faith:

    http://truth-out.org/news/item/10830-corporate-sin-washing-embracing-the-olympic-brand-pays-off-for-sponsors

    Global corporations like Dow Chemical, Adidas, and McDonald’s are paying upwards of $100 million USD to sponsor the 2012 London games and associate themselves with the Olympic brand — but with their brands already well-established, what do corporations get in exchange for these expensive sponsorship deals?

    According to Dave Zirin, sportswriter and columnist for The Nation, the payoff comes through “corporate sin-washing.”

    • muzza 27.1
      13 August 2012 at 5:10 pm

      Carol, you can hardly blame the corporations, which only to what they are “in business” to do, exploit!

      If you want to look in the direction of the IOC, then you will be closer to mark of finding where the sell out really happens, although do not be surpirsed when links between the corporate worls, and the sporting committees are closer than might be desireable.

      • Carol 27.1.1
        13 August 2012 at 6:11 pm

        Both the IOC and corporates influence each other, muzza. The professionalisation of sport, along with corporate sponsorship has occured over time, witht he main impetus coming from corporates., and the Murdoch-style corporate media. Now the IOC has made themselves dependent on corporates in order to keep reproducing the kind of event that the private TV companies will televise.

    • lostinsuburbia 27.2
      13 August 2012 at 7:20 pm

      Now watch the rot set in at the village…. All those flash video presentations of its future will fall flat, there is to much depravation in the surrounding area, plus the UK Government has failed to address any of the structural problems with the economy.

      Why with these Olympics (and other flashy events) am I reminded of the Roman Emperors putting on gladiatorial games to sate the masses. Times really have not changed.

  28. Dave Kennedy 28
    13 August 2012 at 2:44 pm

    Rather than being the transport system of the past, rail is increasingly becoming the transport of the future (something Matthew Hooton fails to appreciate).
    http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.co.nz/2012/08/rail-is-worth-investment.html

    • mickysavage 28.1
      13 August 2012 at 8:05 pm

      Agreed entirely.  In Auckland in 20 (or 10?) years time our next generation will praise us for building the inner city loop.  Or curse us for continuing to build motorways.

      Because when oil starts to run out there will be a stampede towards a transport system that does not rely on petroleum.  I hope we have made the electric rail system robust enough to manage.

      • Draco T Bastard 28.1.1
        13 August 2012 at 8:15 pm

        I hope we have made the electric rail system robust enough to manage.

        We won’t have as the RWNJs will be there complaining about doing so every step of the way. Then, when it becomes obvious that cars are no longer viable, they’ll immediately blame the left for preventing the building of the necessary infrastructure.

  29. gobsmacked 29
    13 August 2012 at 3:48 pm

    TO The Labour leadership team (whoever you are)

    I know you think the Standard comments are just a bunch of ultra-lefties, who can be ignored. You’re wrong. I haven’t been “radical” since my hair started to disappear, a long time ago. I’m a soggy centre-left liberal. I *heart* Clark and Cullen. Like many Labour voters, I don’t ask for a Socialist Utopia tomorrow … I just want a better country, bit by bit. I thought you did too.

    But you are incredibly, staggeringly incompetent. I am no “insider”, so I have no idea why you are so hopeless – but you are. And it’s high time you faced up to it.

    Here is one very small example, from today. Multiply it many times over, every day, and you have Labour’s performance, not just this week, but for years now.

    Today – MMP review.

    Therefore – Politicians respond to MMP review. As of 3 pm, parties such as NZ First, ACT and the Greens had put out a press statement.

    Meanwhile, a whole bunch of interested parties (academics, pressure groups etc) had put out their statements. They had analysed the report and commented on it, in detail.

    This is not surprising. The MMP review was a scheduled event, in the diary. So anybody with any interest in this important issue was ready for its release.

    NONE of these people or parties have the resources available to the Labour caucus/leadership. So why are you always the slowest? Not just today … every day.

    Why does nothing ever change? What is going on? Please, explain. Engage with us. Talk to us. Do you have any idea how frustrating it is – day after day after day – to wait for Labour and/or Shearer to say something – and then to hear that something is barely incoherent.

    Please don’t say “it’s the media”. We’re not stupid. We can read Scoop, or Red Alert, or twitter or any of the umpteen DIRECT channels to communicate with us. But – day after day – there’s nothing. Or there’s flannel. It’s so disheartening. It really is.

    Usually people sign off a rant like this with “I’m not voting for you!”. And right now I feel like I won’t. But here’s the thing … I want to vote Labour. I always have.

    Do you want my vote, or have you just given up? Because it really feels like you have. Please prove me wrong.

    Cheers.

    • Carol 29.1
      13 August 2012 at 4:00 pm

      Well, it seems that within the last hour or so, Labour (Dalziel) has posted a comment on the MMP review (time recorded 15.19). When I looked an hour or two ago, the other 2 articles posted today were at the top of this page:

      http://www.labour.org.nz/news

      Late for it to surface, though.

      And I see no press release from Shearer today re -talking to his caucus about their divisions.

      And posted on Scoop at 3.51pm:

      http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1208/S00172/labour-welcomes-mmp-proposals.htm

      • gobsmacked 29.1.1
        13 August 2012 at 4:10 pm

        The last of the parties to put out a press release, three hours after I wrote one for them on the other thread. In my lunch break.

        I respect Lianne Dalziel, but the leader should be fronting this. I suppose they couldn’t trust him to get through the sound bite without mangling it.

        • bad12 29.1.1.1
          13 August 2012 at 5:00 pm

          Shearer reminds me of the Cheech and Chong classic, Dave, Dave who, Nah Dave’s not here…

          • gobsmacked 29.1.1.1.1
            13 August 2012 at 6:30 pm

            Well, he’s certainly not on the TV news. Unlike Peters, Dunne and Banks – who were also on the radio, several different stations, earlier today, all talking about the major story – MMP.

            It was entirely predictable that it would be the big story, so Shearer … disappeared.

            Genuine question: What was the Labour leader’s diary today?

            More importantly: What will his diary be during an election campaign?

            How the hell is this strategy going to work?

            • just saying 29.1.1.1.1.1
              13 August 2012 at 6:41 pm

              Same way it worked for Goff before him.

              Maybe Shearer did get shoulder-tapped by National when he got back to NZ, and they said “the Labour party are going to offer you a job. We want you to take it.”

            • prism 29.1.1.1.1.2
              13 August 2012 at 9:31 pm

              gobsmacked
              I’ve noticed that there is often a mixup in the words diary and dairy. Perhaps Shearer is down at the dairy having a thickshake – unfortunately at the wrong place at the wrong time. Thickshakes take a lot of sucking to get through. You would be right to say – the situation really sucks.

        • QoT 29.1.1.2
          13 August 2012 at 7:50 pm

          The last of the parties to put out a press release, three hours after I wrote one for them on the other thread. In my lunch break.

          Which pretty much tells us clear as day that it wasn’t a big issue to them. I guess some very clever person in the leader’s office decided that it didn’t fit the heart-warming heartland narrative of the week, never mind that no one gives a fuck about that.

    • Molly Polly 29.2
      13 August 2012 at 5:03 pm

      Thank you for writing this post gobsmacked.

      It is what I have wanted to write…as a long term Labour Party member and former candidate.

      • Anne 29.2.1
        13 August 2012 at 6:38 pm

        +1

        The other day I suggested there were two sides to every story and there always is… Some people interpreted the comment the wrong way but maybe that was my fault. I should have been clearer what I meant.

        The fact is, some of us have been saying much the same sort of thing within our local electorate Labour structures for the past 3 to 4 years, but to little avail. I don’t really know why, but have to assume the hierarchy are still listening to the wrong people.

        Anyway it was a succinct post and came from the heart. That is what Labour should be about! Thanks gobsmacked.

        • Colonial Viper 29.2.1.1
          13 August 2012 at 6:48 pm

          Anne, it’s time we make them listen to the right people.

          When the spice flow stops, all eyes will turn to Arrakis.

          😈

  30. AmaKiwi 30
    13 August 2012 at 4:59 pm

    I did NOT make this up!

    “Shearer happy with behaviour of the caucus”

    Felix Marwick, Newstalk ZB August 13, 2012, 12:45 pm

    “Labour’s leader is satisfied with the behaviour of his MPs.
    It follows a number of distractions for the party that went public last week including speculation about David Cunliffe’s popularity with his colleagues, and Sua William Sio’s warning that Louisa Wall’s Marriage Amendment Bill would cost Labour the next election.”

    “Labour leader David Shearer says he’s happy with the discipline of his caucus.”

    “Yes I am, we’ve had a discussion in caucus (and with) the caucus members and (it’s) behind us now.”
    Mr Shearer says they’re determined to stay focused on the issues that matter.

    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/nbpol/439929317-shearer-happy-with-behaviour-of-the-caucus

    • bad12 30.1
      13 August 2012 at 5:05 pm

      The issues that REALLY matter according to Dave,

      *Do sickness Beneficiaries really deserve the crumbs that are swept off of the table in their direction,

      *Why can’t the likes of Grey Power see that raising the age of eligibility to 67 is good for them,

      *If we grew more apples and got ‘smart’ with them all our problems would be solved…

  31. AmaKiwi 31
    13 August 2012 at 5:15 pm

    Shearer is pretending you and I don’t exist! (See 30 above.)

    • bad12 31.1
      13 August 2012 at 5:20 pm

      The issues that really matter according to Dave, (part 2),

      *The poor love Mango-skins so much that they will engage in violence to secure them,

      *There are 4 Dave’s spreading the gospel according to Dave,therefor Dave will rule the world,

      *Two of the Daves might really be Ronny’s, it doesn’t seem right tho that the 2 Ronny’s should rule the world…

  32. captain hook 32
    13 August 2012 at 5:31 pm

    it is much easier to be a tory than a committed labour voter.all you have to do to be a tory is have an unquenchable desire to rule over others and the smarts to use a system that is designed to favour anal retentives in their strivings to dominate the poor and weak ( its much harder to dominate the strong and mighty).
    thus to be a labour supporter is to have the desire to help your brother with no questions asked.
    so who here who claims to be a labour supporter belongs to a branch or has done any work for the party in the last year.
    thats the acid test.

    • Colonial Viper 32.1
      13 August 2012 at 5:35 pm

      it is much easier to be a tory than a committed labour voter.all you have to do to be a tory is have an unquenchable desire to rule over others and the smarts to use a system that is designed to favour anal retentives in their strivings to dominate the poor and weak

      Hmmm, an oversimplification and somewhat off-target. Its easy to be a committed National voter because National consistently and always looks after its core voters. Even in the face of significant electoral disapproval over individual policies.

  33. AmaKiwi 33
    13 August 2012 at 6:52 pm

    + 1

    The borrow and spend days are over. People are insecure, frightened.

    Shearer’s denial above (note 30 at 4:59 pm) is lies. Can you trust a person like this to deal with our economic problems?

    If he were PM, Shearer would be saying, “Economic problems? What problems? All our problems are behind us.”

  34. Vicky32 34
    13 August 2012 at 7:24 pm

    This piece of shite has been posted to Facebook, as an example of the ‘debate’ on The Standard:
    ”
    Dear KB Forum,
       
    I never thought it would happen to me. I was t:roll:ing away as usual, when all of a sudden I received a permanent ban! Oh wow, I felt so proud! I thought I was really sticking it to those lefties, ramming my point home again and again, paying close attention over hours, days, even weeks, and finally they said they couldn’t take it any more! I feel so proud – I immediately came! Here! And the best thing is, it makes me an oppressed mass, and bad boys are cool. I’m just like Mr Fifty Cents. More at yourpimpingNZ.cum.
       
    Yours,
    Pete-Diddy. ”
    As I am on permanent moderation, the perpetrator won’t know that his laboured attempt at humour is famous, for days!

     

    • r0b 34.1
      13 August 2012 at 7:59 pm

      Ahh, Vicky, the IP address that you’re currently using is in the same domain as one blocked because of another user. I’ll look in to this further and see if the block can be removed.

      Update: You may be clear to comment now?

      • lprent 34.1.1
        13 August 2012 at 10:43 pm

        Ah… Ok I will have to do a cleanout. But after this weekend – moving back to my apartment at last.

        • r0b 34.1.1.1
          13 August 2012 at 10:50 pm

          Grand. Hope the move goes well!

          • lprent 34.1.1.1.1
            13 August 2012 at 11:35 pm

            So do I! Lyn is in pain as she cuts stuff out to it the new smaller space. I on the other hand are estatic because with epubs I we able to offload my entire book collection to someone else (and keep growing my library)

    • marty mars 34.2
      13 August 2012 at 9:57 pm

      awesome vicky a bit mean whatd pete he ever do to youse

  35. Herodotus 35
    13 August 2012 at 7:26 pm

    RIP Greg. You provided plenty of enjoyment and a few stories !!!!!!
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10826526

  36. xtasy 36
    13 August 2012 at 11:08 pm

    Shane Jones was on Native Affairs, representing Labour in a kind of “Leader’s Debate” on current issues like also the recommendations by the commission on MMP.

    Hone Harawira, Winston Peters, Metiria Turei and Flavell (for the Maori Party) were present.

    I presume that Shane Jones was the preferred Maori member from Labour to appear there. He did disagree with Hone on the richer paying their share (e.g. more tax), saying that Labour did not see that as a kind of right step, they would rather want to grow the economy.

    So do I take it then, that Labour is happy with the top income tax rate of only 33 percent (for those earning over 70 k p.a.)?

    Just more proof of where Labour now stands, right?

    At least a positive news to night, Valerie Adams is now being warded the gold medal, after the Belorussian who won the competition at the Olympics has retrospectively been disqualified, due to having used performance enhancing steroids or the likes.

    • gobsmacked 36.1
      13 August 2012 at 11:28 pm

      I think getting silver, and hoping gold gets disqualified, is actually Labour’s election strategy.

      Doesn’t look like Key’s on steroids, though. On the vino, maybe.

  37. xtasy 37
    14 August 2012 at 1:35 am

    Dr David Bratt –

    The Ministry of Social Development’s and Work and Income’s ‘Principal Health Advisor’ – in charge of managing, mentoring, instructing and supervision Regional Health Advisors, Regional Disability Advisors and also in charge of “training” their “designated doctors”, has a number of “presentations” he likes to show, two of which can be found via these links:

    http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=dr%20david%20bratt&source=web&cd=54&ved=0CEoQFjADODI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rgpn.org.nz%2FNetwork%2Fmedia%2Fdocuments%2FConference2011%2FD-Bratt.ppt&ei=9PooUJvEJOqPiAeP7IC4DA&usg=AFQjCNFEdYN_dDW9BAZvZo_cQpC2rFyelg&cad=rja

    http://www.gpcme.co.nz/pdf/2012/Fri_DaVinci_1400_Bratt_Medical%20Certificates%20are%20Clinical%20Instruments%20too%20-%20June%202012.pdf

    Not much more explaining is needed re what goes on at WINZ. Remember ACC and the scandal?

    • Murray Olsen 37.1
      14 August 2012 at 1:44 am

      That reads like something produced by a libertarian circle jerk posing as a policy think tank. A few weeks of hunger always does wonders to make people decide to stop being paralysed or have cancer? These people are dangerous psychos.

  38. Adele 38
    14 August 2012 at 7:45 am

    Xtasy

    Thank you for your excellent links. Having read the presentations of Dr Bratt I would have to say he is completely moronic. Why even pretend that the Ministry of Social Development even cares about the plight of beneficiaries. To attempt to rationalise their efforts towards beneficiaries as somehow morally just and therefore justifiable is beyond condemnation.

    These people care about beneficiaries like ACT cares about humanity. In other words, they don’t care one iota about the future prospects of the marginalised and dis-enfranchised. They just simply want them off their books.

    Of course the hand wringing politically left-leaning middle class bureaucrat may well think that their motives are pure and beyond reproach – I can tell you this, they are simply being delusional with a twist of sanctimony. I regard Dr Bratt in this capacity.

    No doubt he will bring out some heart wrenching tale about his mum raising him as a solo parent – after his Dad was killed saving a bus-load of toddlers from certain death. No doubt he will say that he was raised in a state-home with bare cupboards and in a poor neighbourhood – surrounded by brown people. They were the only pākehā family in the street.

    And there is absolutely no doubt that this marginalised tale of woe will justify, to the ruling class, all manner of abuses towards beneficiaries – because it comes with the attitude “that if I can do it so can you – let me encourage you by making you starve.” Hardly a moral stance. I say to Dr Bratt revisit that hypocratic oath – you’re sounding more like a hypocrit.

    It is also highly probable that Dr Bratt was born to professional people therefore has a refined sense of self importance to which I then would say, “is this the best that can be done by the more refined?

    Its moronic and it comes across as an indoctrination into the third reich.

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