Brexit Vote Live

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1. Gosman 1

   13 March 2019 at 8:50 am

   I think there is no doubt that there will be an extension to Article 50 (So long as the EU are amenable). The question becomes whether the extension will also include a new referendum.
   • Sabine 1.1

     13 March 2019 at 12:16 pm

     why on earth would the EU continue to support this bullshit.

     let them go…..let them go….let them go…..
     • Sam 1.1.1

       13 March 2019 at 12:23 pm

       Brussels can not let the other members see that there is away out.
       • Sabine 1.1.1.1

         13 March 2019 at 9:29 pm

         well i guess the cat is out of the bag then?
2. dv 2

   13 March 2019 at 9:06 am

   Voted against May 341 to 292

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/111232436/theresa-mays-brexit-deal-rejected-by-britains-parliament
3. alwyn 3

   13 March 2019 at 9:10 am

   You provide a link in the statement
   “Jeremy Corbyn says the House should instead support a proposal that can be successfully negotiated and that plan has been put forward by Labour.”.
   That just seems to be a general link to The Guardian and I don’t see any particular story that might tell me what the plan is supposed to be.
   Is there a particular story that explains what the plan is? I really don’t feel like trying to look at the 20+ stories your link seems to show.
   • te reo putake 3.1

     13 March 2019 at 9:26 am

     Have you heard of Google, Alwyn? Get one of your interns to look it up for you on Ask Jeeves or AltaVista. You’ll be pleasantly surprised.

     https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/
     • Kevin 3.1.1

       13 March 2019 at 10:21 am

       Now that is funny 😉
     • alwyn 3.1.2

       13 March 2019 at 10:41 am

       When people provide links on this site they are usually relevant ones. Yours was not.
       Indeed I have seen people banned for not providing a link that justifies a claim.
       However I always thought that many of the bans were unjustified and I certainly wouldn’t propose it. That has of course nothing to do with the fact that I am not a moderator and you are.

       Thank you for this rather more relevant link however. Whether it would prove any easier to get through Parliament is not of course obvious.
       The easiest thing to do, and the most sensible in my opinion, is simply to tell the EU that Britain is withdrawing its notice that they are going to leave. This would require courage and then of course the PM who did it would have to resign and leave politics but ultimately it would be best for the country.
       It would not however require a vote in Parliament, at least as far as I can see.

       Such courage is unlikely to be exhibited by any modern politician, regardless of their country. Their only real aim these days is to preserve their own career. Such people as Churchill and even Anthony Eden in the 1930’s have, like Elvis, left the building a long time ago.
     • Drowsy M. Kram 3.1.3

       13 March 2019 at 1:19 pm

       “We must, indeed, all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately.” – Benjamin Franklin

       Thanks for that interesting Labour-Brexit link:

       Immigration: “our priorities favour growth, jobs and prosperity.

       International Trade: “and creating the jobs and economic growth we need.”

       With every passing year, growth is eroding any prospect of a sustainable future.

       “The current economic system being utilized and internalized relies on perpetual growth. It has long operated counter to the reality that we are confined to a finite planet with finite resources. Yet, this system continues to be practiced and promoted globally. As the environmental and social repercussions of disbelief in limits become increasingly clear, so does our need for a new economic system —one that is not wedded to growth. Neither growth in the number of consumers nor growth in the amount consumed.”
       https://garryrogers.com/tag/limits-to-growth/

       “So far the politicians and economists are so wedded to growth that they insist that economic growth is itself the main characteristic of sustainable development.“

       Humanity’s ‘collective’ sense of entitlement will do for us all in the ‘long run’. And who will remember Cameron, Brexit, May, Corbyn, Johnson et al. then?
4. mikesh 4

   13 March 2019 at 9:39 am

   It seems that Margaret Thatcher, though she started her prime ministerial career as an enthusiastic supporter of EU membership, became disallusioned later and wished to leave. This seems to be the reason she was dumped in favour of John Major. However she was probably better placed than anyone to see the disadvantages of membership.

   It seems farcical that Britain, despite wanting out, should be having so much difficulty exiting. If parliament were more united in support of the referendum result then perhaps the Europeans may have less inclined to play hardball.
   • Gosman 4.1

     13 March 2019 at 10:26 am

     Ummm… Parliament can be as united as they like on the referendum but they still need to negotiate with the EU who will continue to point out unpleasant realities to the British such as the Good Friday agreement requires open borders between the North and South of Ireland. The British need to produce a workable plan to enable them to do this while still leaving the Customs Union.
     • lprent 4.1.1

       13 March 2019 at 9:04 pm

       I really don’t think that the EU can be bothered. There are more things to do than deal with children in politics.
   • alwyn 4.2

     13 March 2019 at 11:13 am

     Do you have evidence for her wanting to leave the EU.
     Papers from the time relating to her speech at Bruges appear to show that she remained strongly in favour of being in the EU but did not support a stronger Federalisation of the Continent. She wanted Britain to remain Britain but still was very much in favour of the free trade aspects of the EU.
     https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/21/margaret-thatcher-backed-single-market-in-draft-bruges-speech
5. Kevin 5

   13 March 2019 at 10:22 am

   Always amazes me how easy it is to get into these agreements, but getting out…
   • Gosman 5.1

     13 March 2019 at 10:50 am

     The British can get out if they come up with a solution to free movement of people and goods between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. It is that simple.
   • alwyn 5.2

     13 March 2019 at 11:19 am

     Like getting married and then divorced is it?
     You can apply on-line for a marriage license. Anyone over 18 who isn’t currently married seems to qualify.
     They’ll then send you an e-mail with the license.
     Seems to be a bit harder to get divorced. None of this repeating “I divorce you” 3 times seems to be available.
6. RedLogix 6

   13 March 2019 at 10:27 am

   These fckwits are playing chicken with the EU. At every turn this once serious country is playing the fool, squandered any chance of a successful Brexit and now facing a humiliating choice of failures.

   In the end reality will win, it always does. At the last minute someone will cobble together some gimcrack scheme to kick the can down the road, but all dignity is now lost.
   • Gosman 6.1

     13 March 2019 at 10:49 am

     This is a test of Corbyn’s leadership as much as May’s. If Corbyn is clever enough he can cobble together a solution and come out looking like a hero. However I am not holding out much hope for him.
     • Dennis Frank 6.1.1

       13 March 2019 at 11:46 am

       Well, he’s already proposed an interim solution: he called for a general election. What an opposition leader would normally do when a govt keeps being defeated in parliament, eh? A leading Eurocrat suggested he not be so oppositional:

       “The frontrunner to replace Jean-Claude Juncker as the next European Commission president has urged Labour to back Brexit and vote for Theresa May’s withdrawal agreement. Manfred Weber, the lead candidate for EU’s dominant political group and an ally of Mr Juncker said it was “absolutely unacceptable” that Jeremy Corbyn’s party was opposing the government.” https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/corbyn-support-may-brexit-deal-eu-weber-a8818976.html

       So it’s absolutely unacceptable for the leader of a parliamentary opposition to oppose the government. That exemplifies how eurocrats think. Symbolic of why the brits got fed up with the buggers, eh?

       “Labour says it cannot back the deal unless Theresa May agrees to soften Brexit and link the UK into the customs union and single market – as some other EU figures have suggested. The party says it will back a second referendum if it cannot secure these changes. But Mr Weber, who leads the European People’s Party in the European Parliament, said on Tuesday: “This is the last chance to reach a reasonable agreement on Brexit. The departure date cannot be postponed – a two-month long technical transitional period is the maximum we can accept.””

       His stance that agreements cannot be changed in politics will bemuse all who know that agreements get changed all the time in politics as usual…
   • greywarshark 6.2

     13 March 2019 at 11:50 am

     What next? I remembered these words from an ancient musical Oklahoma. This video is superb and far more entertaining than Maybe-knot and her City Slickers.

     The UK and the USA are bringing democracy and political management into disrepute, which may be intentional as having a 1% elite of the world with most of its resources, makes a fully functioning democracy a bar to personal freedoms – theirs.

     So I give you 6 minutes of superb presentation and words that are strangely appropriate in places. What next! Have they gone as far as they can go?
     
     • Ad 6.2.1

       13 March 2019 at 12:22 pm

       Oklahoma also has an interesting Expressionist modern dance routine in the middle.

       Nothing like a mote of high modernism from the Okies.
7. greywarshark 7

   13 March 2019 at 12:40 pm

   Yes I notice that my prejudices have to take a hit every now and then. I’m an Okie from Muskogee gives one view, but there is obviously more to them than that. I
   thought that dance routine was great and reminded me of the ones from West Side Story. Very spirited and professional.

   I hope that I can be wrong about May, female leaders, the Conservatives, and the apparently decadent UK government too. But it’s a big ask.
8. James 8

   13 March 2019 at 12:48 pm

   i always thought this would be a clusterfuck. Turns out I completely underestimated how badly politics could really make it.
   • te reo putake 8.1

     13 March 2019 at 1:40 pm

     I think the key moment this process turned to crap was when the Tories invoked article 50 in March 2017. They should have done at least some of the negotiations first before using the ejector seat. If they had, they would have realised the enormity of the task.

     But, at the time, Cabinet Minister Liam Fox reckoned negotiations for a free trade deal with the European Union would be “one of the easiest in human history”.
     • Gosman 8.1.1

       13 March 2019 at 2:55 pm

       They did do some of the negotiation before hand. The commitment to the Irish border was made before hand as were the payment up of EU dues. Technically the UK was precluded from Trade negotiation with the EU until AFTER Article 50 as it was not allowed to negotiate trade deals with other countries while being a member of the EU.
9. Wayne 9

   13 March 2019 at 1:52 pm

   May can’t get her deal through. Tomorrow it is probable that the “No Deal” will be voted out. That will then require amending the leaving act if it is to be legally effective.

   I wonder if Labour put up its custom union proposal whether that would get through. If all the opposition parties voted in favour and a few Conservatives also supported it, then it would pass. On that basis the EU may/would grant an extension to Art 50 to actually negotiate that as the deal.

   It would be a rather odd result of the opposition setting the agenda, but without being the government. It is not a necessary inference that a general election would be the result of a Labour proposed deal getting through.

   Of course in my view, if the UK stays in a customs union with the EU, then they might as well not have left. Most of the obligations with few of the benefits.

   A FTA is the logical consequence of leaving. That of course would have meant voting for May’s deal then negotiating the FTA, just as the deal envisaged.

   If the Labour plan failed, then parliament would have been unable to agree on anything except not to leave without a deal. A referendum may be required to resolve that issue. But only two alternatives could exist in such a referendum if it was to be meaningful.

   The ERG may get the absolute reverse of what they wanted. Unless Rees Mogg and the others have some amazing plan to leave, I reckon they have just lost, by their own vote.
   • Sam 9.1

     13 March 2019 at 2:07 pm

     This is also why so many MPs go against their constituents. On Labours side Brexit is better for British workers but they dont want them free from treasury safety net / support. On Conservative / Tory side with a philosophy of small government mentality and well, asking them for a big government, hard boarders and customs unions is big government. Complex Super Structures are just better for politicians all round.
   • SPC 9.2

     13 March 2019 at 2:23 pm

     Some Tory supporters of Remain and some Tory supporters of May’s deal might support a Labour vote for a Customs Union (not all Labour would) but then again those who opposed May’s deal because they support either Customs Union Single Market or Remain would likely vote against (as would LD/SNP).

     Most likely May and Corbyn would need to work together on it, or it too would fail.

     Labour’s position is more indicative of being moderate because they have no Hard Brexit faction, thus more reasoned and reasonable – as an electioneering pose.

     May’s refusal to accept her failure to craft a bespoke deal probably means parliament is at an impasse.
     • greywarshark 9.2.1

       13 March 2019 at 2:37 pm

       How come UK is so shittily run that they can’t do better than this; that they have no arrangement for a new election when there is an impasse over the very future method of doing business and relating to their neighbours? It’s of vital importance.

       It seems to be a fatal flaw of them, that they deal in preferences than reality. They want this or that done, this or that way. Phooey to rational flow-charts or any close study of the procedure envisaged and promoted, that would indicate that the outcomes of certain measures are not satisfactory.

       Actually now I think of it, this is the way that NZ is being managed today! With similar consequences. Will no-one rid us of this turbulent, troublesome political and economic model?
       • SPC 9.2.1.1

         13 March 2019 at 2:53 pm

         Many American Christians believe in end time advent “kingdom come” – which involves heavenly govenment on earth in place of their democracy (these are the real UnAmericans). Today they face their mammon and fortresses imperial power being superseded by the kingdom of heaven palace in Beijing. Be careful what you wish for.

         And our problem is not so much gridlock, or division, but too much of a bi-partisan consensus (near 40 years of right wing economic and tax orthodoxy since 1984).
     • Wayne 9.2.2

       13 March 2019 at 4:33 pm

       SPC,

       I think you are right. Things have come to a point where there seem to be only two ways forward, both of which require the govt and the opposition to work together.

       Either some variation of the Labour plan of a customs union, or a second referendum.

       In both cases a large chunk of both the Conservatives and Labour would vote against. But I suspect there would be a cross party majority.
       • Sam 9.2.2.1

         13 March 2019 at 4:39 pm

         Or it could just be a giant and continues turd waterfall until the ECB offers fiscal relief. The longer the ECB plays hard ball, the greater the stimulus required.
10. SPC 10

    13 March 2019 at 2:13 pm

    Is the PM May prepared to accept her failure to negotiate a “better Tory bespoke deal” so she can move on to a compromise with the Labour based around continued customs union membership?

    Or will she allow her codependency with Tory hard Brexiteers (they are using her stubborness as a Trojan horse for Brexit with no deal – by running down the clock) to ruin her government.
    • Sam 10.1

      13 March 2019 at 2:19 pm

      Britian in the last 100 years has gone from the worlds premier super power who made up all the trade rules to a shadow of its former self unable to prevent simple apartment fires. Westminster is with out a doubt the most incompetent and idiotic parliament that has ever graced the face of this planet and unfortunately there is no cure for being an idiot.
    • soddenleaf 10.2

      13 March 2019 at 4:54 pm

      The Brexit camp have never had a plan. There is no actual camp for them. As you infer by suggesting a hard brexit position then there is a soft brexit, and a whatever brexit position, along with the don’t slam the door brexit.

      The Tories never wanted brexit, just as Howard never wanted a republic, and Key a flag. Yet the Tories could lose the referendum so are stuffed. Incompetent party.
      • SPC 10.2.1

        13 March 2019 at 5:10 pm

        Brexit with no deal is the goal of a faction in the Tory caucus.
        • soddenleaf 10.2.1.1

          13 March 2019 at 5:17 pm

          lol. yes, and the pro eu brexit camp.
          • SPC 10.2.1.1.1

            13 March 2019 at 6:11 pm

            I think I’ll disengage until you dry out … maybe then you might notice the irony that the “pro EU Remain faction” in the Tory caucus and the Brexit with no deal/hard Brexit faction are agreed on wanting something other than May’s deal.

            May’s stubborness to get a bespoke deal, run down the clock to coerce others to agree, has in fact allowed both of these factions in her caucus to use her for their own purposes.
11. greywarshark 11

    13 March 2019 at 2:25 pm

    Sam you remind me of Ed. Always making great claims in a wise tone ‘without a doubt’.
12. SPC 12

    13 March 2019 at 2:33 pm

    Once parliament demonstrates it is unable to agree on anything but that they dislike both a Hard Brexit and May’s deal, what then?

    Maybe they take a good hard look at what they have been about, what right had either the May government, or the UK parliament to be the final arbiter of any deal?

    The referendum is about a matter that is generational, beyond their terms in office. And the outcome always required a public mandate.

    So parliament offers the people alternatives to Remain

    1. Customs Union and Single Market or Remain
    2. Customs Union or Remain

    The other options, the May bespoke deal and a no deal Brexit already having been rejected by the parliament (it might be considered intemperate to demonstrate to their proponents that their public support was also minimal, but if they insist … )
    • Macro 12.1

      13 March 2019 at 6:22 pm

      Agreed.
13. mikesh 13

    13 March 2019 at 3:41 pm

    The House of Commons voting against a hard brexit won’t stop it happening presumably. They will be leaving on March 29 anyway, whatever sort of landing they have.
14. Tiger Mountain 14

    13 March 2019 at 3:42 pm

    Jeremy Corbyn has attracted ‘stick’ from TRP previously on dithering over Brexit–perhaps tinged with prevalent NZ Labourite disdain for Mr Corbyn–but JC appears as snookered as the other UK politicians.

    Academics have talked about Neo Liberalism aiding the “Atomisation of the working class”, the psychology of pervasive individualism penetrating deeply into what were previously more class and shared community concerns. Is this an example of that?

    So, we have opinions on Brexit divided within party lines and also across–age, region, urban, rural, occupation, income etc. A second vote would presumably be as close as the first. It would tax the likes of a VI Lenin to figure a way out of this this pile of pus.
    • Sam 14.1

      13 March 2019 at 3:49 pm

      Now that Brexit Deal number 2 Vote is done and motions to extend and delay will be put on the table, one thing doesn’t change. Europe is slipping into a Recession. Has the anyone figured that out yet? The March 29th outcome of Brexit simply means the EU Recession quickens to 6-9 months later (delay).
    • SPC 14.2

      13 March 2019 at 4:11 pm

      For mine the major one is the development of nationalism within England (while Wales, Scotland and NI have their own assembly/parliaments), especially amongst the older folk.

      England is the only area to vote for Brexit and even in England its only amongst those over 50.

      Chuka Umunna (one of the MP’s who left the Labour Party recently) has suggested an English parliament for some time (he is a supporter of the People’s Vote campaign for a second referendum and “led a parliamentary rebellion on an amendment to the Queen’s speech, which said the UK should remain in the single market and customs union”).
      • Macro 14.2.1

        13 March 2019 at 6:21 pm

        +1
      • DS 14.2.2

        14 March 2019 at 7:29 pm

        Wales voted for Brexit.
        • SPC 14.2.2.1

          14 March 2019 at 8:09 pm

          You are right.

          Though the polls since show Remain preferred (as they did prior to the referendum).

          https://ukandeu.ac.uk/have-welsh-voters-changed-their-view-of-brexit/

          https://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/16416811.dramatic-increase-in-support-for-remaining-in-the-eu-in-gwent-poll-shows/
15. rod 15

    13 March 2019 at 5:14 pm

    What’s David Cameron doing these days? He was the dickhead that started all this old bollocks. Spray and walk away.
    • greywarshark 15.1

      13 March 2019 at 9:16 pm

      John Clarke and Brian Dawe left us a little present in their early view of Brexit.
      Thanks mates. 2017 was the sad year that John left us to our own devices; he was his own IED.

      John is fairly crushing about Cameron; Brian Dawe hears it as an echo of what is happening in Oz. Sigh.
      
16. greywarshark 16

    13 March 2019 at 5:18 pm

    Here is Theresa May impersonating Tracey Ullman. Oh sorry I’ve got it the wrong way round. This may tell us more about May than you have as yet seen from the real person.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAt4WDYYNqw

    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aid61yqsvHU

    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0qSH1BtKfY
    (Theresa May-Tracey Ullman comes on about 3m)
17. Tom Pained 17

    13 March 2019 at 6:04 pm

    Whats next ? Teresa auditions for the Rocky Horror Picture Show ..

    According to her own attorney general’s legal advice UK will never leave the EU

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/legal-advice-geoffrey-cox-attorney-general-brexit-a8819091.html
18. CHCoff 18

    13 March 2019 at 6:40 pm

    I think New Zealand should help support, progress & be involved with the EU as much as possible.

    It is a much improved work in progress to what the league of nations was last century, which NZ was steadfast to the end for, & which the UN bears more similarity to these days.
19. Tom Pained 19

    13 March 2019 at 6:42 pm

    Tory contenders jostle for position ..
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/8622780/theresa-may-forced-to-deny-shell-quit-after-brexit-deal-is-killed-off-as-tory-contenders-jostle-for-position/

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