Corbyn was right about Palestine

Written By: - Date published: 10:44 am, January 3rd, 2024 - 106 comments
Categories: International, israel, Jeremy Corbyn, Palestine, uk politics, war - Tags:

We are nearly two months into the latest Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip.

I have written a few posts about the topic recently but none since November 2023.

I thought then that Israel’s treatment of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip was appalling.

For those who question why I am not criticising Hamas I previously described them as a rag tag bunch of young men who have effectively lived their lives under oppression in the open air prison known as the Gaza Strip.  But when you think about the conditions that many of them have grown up in at one level their response is not surprising.

They have watched their friends being killed by sniper fire for taking part in protests.  They have seen repeated attacks on Gaza by Israeli forces over a number of years.  And more recently they have witnessed repeated attacks on their schools and hospitals under the pretext that there are Hamas insurgents present.

This makes a perfect incubator for terrorists.

Back then the only word I could use for what was happening was “genocide”.  Subsequently things have become much worse and the justification for the use of the word is reinforced.

How else do you describe the levelling of large parts of Gaza?  What other word can be used to describe the deaths of 22,000 people or the killing of over 100 journalists?

At a more personal level how more indiscriminate can an attack be than an Isreali air strike which killed Issam Al Mughrabi who was a United Nations official along with more than 70 members of his extended family.

Or how about the continued bombing of hospitals and schools?  Or the destruction or damaging of 70% of Palestinian homes?

Imagine an attack that destroyed every house in the North Island.  How could any word other than genocide be used?

And in terms of intent how about repeated suggestions that the Gaza based Palestinians should be moved to the Sinai?

South Africa has applied to the International Court of Justice under the 1948 Genocide Convention for an order preventing further Israeli attacks on Gaza.  I hope they succeed.

Over in England Labour leader Keir Starmer has not resiled from his earlier position that Israel was justified in its attacks on Gaza because it was acting in self defence.

From the Guardian:

Keir Starmer set out his thinking in a speech on 31 October when he said it was legitimate for Israel to seek to eliminate Hamas and that he opposed a ceasefire “for now” because Hamas would still be capable of carrying out a 7 October-style attack. He earlier thought that holding back food and water for Gaza was justified.  Despite an internal rebellion, Labour has not in essence altered that view even as the death toll and destruction in Gaza has mounted.

This is despite the views of a large number of Labour members and also its supporters.  Fifty six MPs defied the whip and voted to call for a cease fire. A number of Labour Councillors have resigned because of Starmer’s position.  And the stance may be having electoral repercussions.

From Umar Lateef Misgar at Al Jazeera:

In a survey involving 30,000 Muslim participants conducted in late October by the Muslim Census, an organisation based in the UK, only 5 percent of the respondents said they would vote for Labour in the next general elections. That is much lower compared with 71 percent of British Muslims who voted for the party in 2019. The Conservative Party, which drew 9 percent of the Muslim vote in 2019, would get less than 1 percent of the votes of those sampled in that survey.

In another survey of 1,032 Muslims across the UK, more than two-thirds expressed dissatisfaction with the British government’s response to the Israeli assault on Gaza. Nearly half of the respondents conveyed similar sentiments regarding Starmer’s approach to the crisis, though a majority still backed the Labour Party.

And it is not just Muslims in the UK. In a YouGov poll of overall public sentiments published on November 15, a third of the participants said the UK government should oppose Israel’s war and push for a ceasefire. Another quarter of those who participated called for a limited ceasefire. Only 9 percent opposed any kind of a ceasefire while backing Israel’s military aims.

Starmer’s problem is that he and elements within the party weaponised earlier claims of antisemitism to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn from the Parliamentary Labour Party.  Recent events have confirmed Corbyn’s principled position being the right one and exposed Starmer to claims of being a Blairite clone or worse.

As Mike Smith recently said:

Following a report into anti-semitism in the UK Labour party, Corbyn said anti-semitism exists in the Party but it is over-stated and the campaign against it is politically-motivated by opponents inside and outside the Party. He was instantly suspended from the party and had the whip removed by leader Sir Keir Starmer, which seems excessive and will cause further discord. Corbyn is not an anti-Semite.

The issue of anti-semitism in Labour in my opinion has been a very successful psyop, running over several years since Corbyn became leader and  most likely originating in the Israeli state. When Corbyn was riding high, his support for Palestinian rights would have  been seen by Israel as a threat. As a long-time human rights activist, Corbyn’s past statements were productive fodder for his opponents, and provided much grist for UK media mills.

If you want justification for Mike Smith’s claim then this post by Nick Kelly describing the leaking of a draft report into the party’s handling of anti semitism claims is well worth a read.  In it he said:

The leaked draft report essentially said that UK Labour’s ability to deal with the antisemitism issue was “an abnormal intensity of factional opposition to the party leader” which had “inhibited the proper function of the Labour party bureaucracy.” In other words, for the party apparatchik undermining Jeremy Corbyn was a higher priority than stopping racism.

The many transcripts show that while there were many antisemitism complaints in 2019, the majority of these were from one individual and upon investigation, these were dropped due to lack of substance. Many of the earlier antisemitism investigations were delayed, by senior Party HQ officials and not by Corbyn or his team. The report also makes it clear that these senior Party HQ officials were working very closely with Deputy Leader Tom Watson, who was very outspoken in the media about Labour’s handling of antisemitism. It is likely he a) knew or had some idea that early antisemitism complaints had been delayed by his friends in Party HQ, rather than Corbyn’s office and b) that the many complaints in 2019 were originating from one vexatious litigant in the party rather than there being hundreds of genuine complaints.

Opposition to the Corbyn project by party HQ was at fever pitch. The leaked WhatsApp messages show that these senior officials became despondent when Labour’s support increased during the 2017 General Election. These texts confirm that party funds were funnelled to their friends and allies in safe seats, specifically Tom Watson. For candidates in marginal constituencies who were seen as too supportive of the Corbyn project, Party HQ starved these campaigns of resources.

More recently Starmer indicated that Corbyn would never again be a Labour MP after Corbyn refused to describe Hamas as a terrorist group.  Corbyn replied that he “deplore[d] the targeting of all civilians”, including Hamas’s killing of about 1,200 people in Israel on 7 October.  He added:

If we understand terrorism to describe the indiscriminate killing of civilians, in breach of international law, then of course Hamas is a terrorist group.

I suspect that Starmer will not change his position and hope that Corbyn disappears from view.

Meanwhile Corbyn continues with the struggle, and continues to oppose what is happening in Palestine as he has for a number of decades.

These events provide a stark comparison of a principle based approach to politics and an approach based on the perception that sufficiently accurate triangulation of a position provides the best political response.  Give me a principle based approach every time.

106 comments on “Corbyn was right about Palestine ”

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  1. Barfly 1
    3 January 2024 at 1:39 pm

    IMO

    Starmer – wrong on Palestine right on Ukraine

    Corbyn – right on Palestine wrong on Ukraine

  2. Blazer 2
    3 January 2024 at 2:02 pm

    There is no path to power for any western politician without…..Jew diligence.

    [lprent: Banned for 6 months for tasteless stupidity. If you mention ‘humour’ in any response, I will change it to 6 years. I trust I make myself clear to any other arseholes trying to substitute ‘humour’ for ‘robust debate’ ]

  3. Ad 3
    3 January 2024 at 3:13 pm

    Corbyn is judged on Palestine on a simple maxim:

    "It's wrong to be right too soon."

  4. lprent 4
    3 January 2024 at 3:21 pm

    I'm glad that South African government has brought the case to the ICC. The actions of the Israeli government and military in this conflict deserve to be put under a microscope.

    The military* incursion of Israel by Hamas/IJ who attacked military positions, civilians and grabbed military and civilian prisoners – including many war crimes. Obviously if Israel chooses to call it a war, then they have directly given military combatant status to Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

    Regardless if it is a 'terrorist' operation or military operations, the disproportionate response by the IDF and Israeli government is way beyond any normal military response.

    Israel has now used their military to murder at least one percent of population of the Gaza strip, and injure at least a further 2 percent of the population. The vast majority of those have been civilians. That has shown a clear and complete lack of discrimination by the IDF about trying to diminish civilian casualties.

    The main weapon has been bombing and artillery that has been deliberately striking residential areas and critical infrastructure. Nearly half of the bombs dropped by the Israeli pilots have been unguided dumb bombs. Many of which appear to have been massive 2000 pound bombs dropped in 'safe' residential areas that the IDF has been trying to herd Palestinians civilians into.

    They have continued their unlawful blockage of essential food, water and fuel supplies to the Gaza strip – inducing a Israeli made famine.

    This is all in an area that the Israeli government and IDF have been in military occupation since 1967 and responsible for external security of – just as they are in the West Bank. Unilateral withdrawal with an assumption of external control including decades old blockade does not remove the responsibility that Israel has had for Gaza since the 1967 war.

    If the widespread war crimes against civilians are not a process of ethnic cleansing and genocide, then Israel needs to redefine what those terms mean. Because they are exactly the kinds of deeds that they and other nations have persecuted war crimes for since the end of the second world war.

    In fact the history of the Gaza enclave since 1948 by the IDF and later controlled by them holds a remarkable resemblance to the actions of the German SS and the Warsaw Ghetto after the fall of Poland in 1939. War crimes that were pursued by allied forces, Israelis, and the German federal republic after the war as being genocidal.

    As an observation, I'm getting increasing worried about just how genocidal the Israelis are allowing their government and military to become.

    For instance as far as I can tell, Israeli hasn't allowed access to prisoners from Gaza by the Red Cross/Cresent since the incursion of October 7th. This includes at least 4000 Gazan workers who were on the wrong side of the security line on October 7th, the dragnets that the IDF has been running to collect thousands of men of military age and their transport to unknown locations, and whatever Hamas they have actually allowed to remain alive.

    After all the IDF are such a shambles that they managed to murder three Israeli escaped hostages who:-

    • came into open to be saved by the IDF
    • stripped to the waist
    • had hands in the air
    • were waving white clothes in surrender
    • were calling out in Hebrew that they were hostages from October 7th

    Moreover, after killing two and having the other duck back in cover, the officer in charge cajoled the last one out with promises that he wouldn't be harmed further. When he did, he was shot by two of the soldiers under the officers command, and killed.

    The IDF and the Israeli government claims that it was all a terrible mistake caused by jumpy troops and the the noise of tank.

    However that would have been a war crime even if it was a group of Hamas fighters surrendering. It was also on a par with multitudes of credible reports of similar deliberate actions of many IDF troops towards civilians..

    It just points to the IDF being ill-disciplined, genocidal, and largely incompetent. So far in this conflict they don't look like soldiers or a a disciplined military. They act just armed nutters intent on genocidal war crimes.

    Hopefully the thousands of prisoners that the IDF haven't had a Treblinka like SS run final solution performed on them by the IDF. Because based on the statements of some members of the current Israeli government, I currently can't tell the difference between senior members of the Israeli government and those of many genocidal members of the Nazi regime in the 1930s and 1940s who advocated for 'resettling' the regimes perceived enemies into concentration camps.

  5. adam 5
    3 January 2024 at 6:09 pm

    The only thing "left" in the British labour party is it's Stalinist ability to purge.

    I think the IDF are nuts,

    and who wants the gas field next to Gaza?

    Anyone else get the feeling since the fall of the Berlin wall, it's been one far right faction, fighting another far right faction. Hard to find a socialists even at the table to observe anymore.

  6. Paul Rain 6
    3 January 2024 at 9:41 pm

    It's absurd to claim that the heroes of the Palestinian resistance are 'terrorists'.

    Do Palestinians burn 'israeli' babies in ovens, as the zionists did to the son of the baker at Deir Yassin? No.

    Do Palestinians torture and rape 'israeli' kids, as the zionists routinely do to Palestinian kids, as acknowledged by the US State Department whistleblower who testified that 'israel' banned NGOs like Defence for Children Palestine specifically because the US had asked about well documented cases of rape of Palestinian children kidnapped by 'israel'? No.

    Do Palestinians poison 'israeli' wells with typhus, as the zionists did to Palestinians in their 'Operation Cast thy Bread' and in the decades since? No.

    No. But the zionists falsely accuse Palestine’s military of doing all these things. Just more projection and lies, the only things that come out of the mouths of zionists.

    No. There has never been a Palestinian 'terrorist'. The heroes of Palestine had every right to break out of the Gaza concentration camp and strike back against the zionist murderers. God bless em all.

    [lprent: If you want to make assertions of facts – then provide credible links for others to follow and to criticise related to those facts.

    Be prepared for questions and assertions about your credibility based on the quality of the links that you provide.

    For the moment I think that most of your assertions of fact in this comment are simple bullshit propaganda.

    The only one that I currently consider to be substantive is your poorly written opinion that it is legitimate for Gazans to strike at Israeli targets. Gazans are, under international law, still under a military occupation by Israel and have been since 1967. The blockades by the IDF since their unilateral withdrawal and frequent military incursions since 2006 have maintained that military occupation since.

    Please read the site policy about robust debate and learn how to make it. This is your only warning about assertions of fact that you haven’t substantiated. It isn’t a ]

    • SPC 6.1
      3 January 2024 at 10:52 pm

      Define Zionist.

      • Paul Rain 6.1.1
        3 January 2024 at 11:28 pm

        Simple. The alien home invaders squatting on Palestinian land, who considered stealing parts of Kenya and Argentina instead for their fake 'state' but decided that they weren't as fertile as the farmers of Palestine had made the land they would eventually steal.

        • SPC 6.1.1.1
          4 January 2024 at 12:00 am

          Are "they" aliens because they are Jewish, or for migration into Palestine, or for forming a Jewish homeland state there?

          • Ghostwhowalks 6.1.1.1.1
            5 January 2024 at 12:35 pm

            Even at the time of the Roman empire there were as many jews living outside as inside of Judea. Religions spread , so its not ethnicity based

            Europe has one nation with an official semitic language , Malta . Should they reclaim the homelands of the ancient Phoenicians because their language descended from them too ?

            For goodness sake there was for a time a jewish kingdom in Yemen, is that a homeland too.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himyarite_Kingdom#Jewish_monarchy

            Zionists are followers of the political-religious philosophy called Zionism, created in 1890s in response to the Russian empire doing to the jewish population in eastern europe what Israel now does to the Arab population of Palestine.

            • SPC 6.1.1.1.1.1
              5 January 2024 at 12:50 pm

              Meh, Zionisn has been around three thousand years. A political revivalism based around the emergence of nationalism within Europe in the 19th C was not its origin.

              Under their religious law, anyone born to a Jewish woman is Jewish. So basically one of their principle rules is that one cannot impugn the place of another in their ethnic people over religious difference. This is what makes them an ethnic people, rather than a religion.

              • Ghostwhowalks …
                5 January 2024 at 3:41 pm

                More mythology. of course Zionism was invented , like Marxism or even Christian Scientists in that era. Just re-inventing an historical timeline is a classic artificial construct to give legitimacy. Remember the ideology that created a timeline to some ancient Aryan race

                Catholics are born that way too, according the Church rules and even for mixed marriages they only allow it to happen if the children become catholic

                Does that make Catholics an ethnicity too ?

                Surely you must know jews are like everyone else in these areas , a whole range of ethnicities of Mediterranean, Arabic/African and European descent

                Just believing some religious dogma doesnt make it true

                • SPC …
                  5 January 2024 at 9:40 pm

                  The kingdoms of Israel and Judah are both knowns – in both historical and archeological record. And back 3000 years. It is the basis of their ethnic nations aspiration for political Zionism (centred around Jerusalem).

                  That there was continuance of their identity as an ethnic group outside of the area afterward does not change the reality of that. Nor that they had a religious cult based round a "creation myth" – as did many peoples, such as Maori.

                  All ethnic groups include others across time – this by either inter-marriage, or by cultural inclusion when living in a common society (language and religion) and then inter-marriage. Maori iwi today include those (otherwise) Polynesians, Chinese, Irish. Italian etc because of their ancestry. As do the Jewish people.

                  You seem to imagine you can deny the existence of a people because they have a religious (national cult origin) tradition in their culture, when their continuance is not dependent on that. Comparing that to Catholicism, and those of it, is an insult to both their groups but for different reasons.

                  As I noted, Judaism (the religious part of the culture) does not require belief from those born to a Jewish mother to be seen by them as apart of their ethnic people. There is no equivalent for lapsed Catholic for those of an ethnic people.

                  • Ghostwhowalks …
                    6 January 2024 at 9:44 am

                    Zionism invented by Theodor Herzl in 1896, seems to have been given a creation myth that as an idea it dates back 2000 years.

                    Maybe you have forgotten Herzls pamphlet 'Judenstaat'

                    "Proposal of a modern solution for the Jewish question" and was originally called "Address to the Rothschilds".

                    It certainly was a 'modern solution' as one sections is called

                    PALESTINE OR ARGENTINA?

                    Shall we choose Palestine or Argentina?[2] We shall take what is given us, and what is selected by Jewish public opinion. The Society will settle both these points.

                    Well well. The myth of Zionism ( recreation of a Judenstaat) as a 2000 yr old idea indeed by those that came after.

                    Do we recreate Crusader kingdoms in the middle East too…because history ?

                    Your 'ethnic people' is a myth also which I find offensive as it echoes a totalitarian state which created a range of pseudo-scientific European 'racial' classifications ( which they arent), some superior to others.

                    Israel cant exist without dividing its citizens into classifications. I understand Netanyahu isnt a jew by religion ( hes not religious) but because of the classification.
                    Druze are ‘non Arab’ either even though are a Shia sect Muslim Arab so are classified separately to Muslim or christian Arabs

                    • SPC …
                      6 January 2024 at 10:39 pm

                      Now, you're just doing a stand up without any jokes.

                      Most nations that exist as states in Europe exist because of their ethnic people identity, but they were under occupation by empires – HRE/Austria-Hungary/Russia/Ottoman.

                      Did Garibaldi invent Italy, an area ruled by Rome and its citizens spoke Latin?

                      Why are Kurds, Kurds? Is it because they are Sunni Moslems and not Shia? Is it because they speak a language not Arabic which is a branch of that of a people who are Shia Moslems? Not being like Persians, or Arabs, made them neither, Kurds.

                      Druze are seen as a sectarian group apart from other Arabs in Lebanon and Syria as well. As are the Alawites in Syria, even though Assad is one of them and rules the place (father and son heads of the Baath Party, so Bush Family values – Herbert Qunicy MD – too subtle?).

                    • Ghostwhowalks …
                      8 January 2024 at 10:23 am

                      Since when did the modern nation state of say Hungary be created in territory that was non resident Magyars. They lost pre WW1 territory and peoples who wernt Magyar ‘enough’

                      Herzl created the theory that a religious identity could have a nation state of its own ,maybe using historical associations, and massive migrations- all because of Czarist oppression.

                      He didnt care whether it was Palestine or Argentina! At the time very very few jews knew Hebrew at all. It was like Latin the language of the Catholic Church. Not part of the jews in Europe’s identity.

                      Crusaders tried that 1000 years before with "Latin Christian' kingdoms ( ignoring the resident Eastern christians). Clearly a mistaken cause still resented today

                      Italy had its existing italian nation states, just not a unified one. Up till Garibaldi there were two main ones. The Kingdom of the Two Sicily’s ( Naples) and the Kingdom of Sardinia ( Turin) plus the small papal states in between (Rome)

                      Palestine was an identity with its own people , mostly Arab,-Muslim and Christian in Herzls time . As part of the Ottoman Empire it was a 'state' but the Mandate for Palestine was called that as that was its identity

                      Even the UN partition plan in 1948 only had ONE jewish majority district . Tel Aviv and even that was only because The Arab city of Jaffa was excluded even though it was the same urban area.

                      What do Kurds or Druze have to do with it. Did they migrate from Europe or North Africa into the current regions in the last 100 years . maybe because Kurdish is Indo European they should migrate to Europe long term

                      Which is happening!

                      Your diversions from the founding of Israel and whos idea is was is tiresome …..

                      [lprent: This looked weird in moderation. GhostWhoWalks talking to themself. Might pay to start a new thread, you are indented 10 on this one. ]

      • Judy Hewitt 6.1.2
        5 January 2024 at 9:43 pm

        Just one word to describe Zionist! FASCiST

    • SPC 6.2
      3 January 2024 at 11:58 pm

      Do Palestinians poison 'israeli' wells with typhus, as the zionists did to Palestinians in their 'Operation Cast thy Bread' and in the decades since?

      Can you provide any evidence of this practice, since 1948?

      • Paul Rain 6.2.1
        4 January 2024 at 2:34 pm

        Nice cope, pedophile.

        • SPC 6.2.1.1
          4 January 2024 at 2:47 pm

          So the all Zionists defamation becomes anyone who questions this is fair game for lies and slander as well …. You are either working for the team you criticise, or the worst on-line supporter the Palestinians have.

          The fact is that ‘Operation Cast thy Bread” only ran briefly in 1948 and was criticised by other Zionists.

          • Paul Rain 6.2.1.1.1
            4 January 2024 at 3:37 pm

            We all know [snip. Not necessary and inflamatory – MS] denied the well-known well-poisoning of 'Operation Cast thy Bread' that has occurred from 1948 onwards, until 2022.

            We all know that [snip. Not necessary and inflamatory – MS] deny the Nakba, the worst genocide of the 20th century, and even continue to lie about individual attacks conducted as part of the demonic attack on the legitimate population of Palestine like the massacre at Tantura, even lying after 'idf' terrorist veterans admitted on film that they committed evil atrocities in 2022.

            https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/01/movies/tantura-review.html

            We all know that everything that comes out of your mouth is a [snip. Not necessary and inflamatory – MS].

            • SPC 6.2.1.1.1.1
              4 January 2024 at 3:58 pm

              You are yet to provide any evidence of any continuance of 'Operation Cast thy Bread' beyond 1948.

              Oct 14, 2022

              On April 1, 1948, David Ben-Gurion wrote in his journal about “the development of science and speeding up its application in warfare.” A month and a half later, he wrote about “biological materials” that were purchased for $2,000. Only now, 74 years later, has a connection between these two entries come to light. The disturbing story behind them was recently uncovered by historian Benny Morris and historian and Israel Prize laureate Benjamin Z. Kedar following extensive archival research. Evidently, the excerpts from the diary of the man who would become Israel’s first prime minister are traces of his involvement in a secret operation to poison the drinking water of Arab communities during the War of Independence.

              This operation was partially exposed decades ago when rumors and oral testimonies were reported in newspapers and books about an attempt in 1948 by the IDF to poison wells in Acre and Gaza by adding bacteria to the drinking water. However, only now, in Morris and Kedar’s research, has the “smoking gun” been revealed – in the form of official documentation. The newly unearthed documents show that this operation was much broader in scope than earlier believed and that other top military and political figures besides Ben-Gurion were involved.

              Morris and Kedar believe that the objective of the IDF operation was not to cause mass killing but rather to disrupt the Arabs’ moves. Ultimately, the operation did not change the face of the war. According to various reports, several dozen Arabs did fall ill, mainly in Acre. The operation drew scathing criticism within the system – both within the IDF and among the Yishuv leadership – in part because it violated the 1925 Geneva Protocol banning “the use of bacteriological methods of warfare.”

              https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-10-14/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/documents-confirm-israelis-poisoned-arab-wells-in-1948/00000183-d2b2-d8cc-afc7-fefed64d0000

    • SPC 6.3
      4 January 2024 at 12:15 am

      None of the news reports about Israel banning Palestinian NGO'S on the basis they were affiliated to the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine mentions the claims you made.

      https://www.newarab.com/features/palestinian-ngos-banned-israel-continue-fight-truth

      Do Palestinians torture and rape 'israeli' kids, as the zionists routinely do to Palestinian kids, as acknowledged by the US State Department whistleblower who testified that 'israel' banned NGOs like Defence for Children Palestine specifically because the US had asked about well documented cases of rape of Palestinian children kidnapped by 'israel'? No.

      • Paul Rain 6.3.1
        4 January 2024 at 3:39 pm

        Aww, the truth really hurts doesn't it, pedophile defender? Even CNN allowed whistleblowers to admit that israel rapes kids as part of state policy.

        https://transcripts.cnn.com/show/ampr/date/2023-12-04/segment/01

        • SPC 6.3.1.1
          4 January 2024 at 3:53 pm

          The relevant part is after 8 minutes 40 seconds here – a Palestinian NGO made a single allegation of rape against a 13 year old male (other allegations as per the treatment of females did not allege rape). When Americans raised the issue with Israel the organisation had its offices raided and some if its records taken.

    • lprent 6.4
      4 January 2024 at 4:22 am

      See my moderation note.

      • Cinder 6.4.1
        4 January 2024 at 2:13 pm

        I'll pick up the baton for Paul Rain on this:

        Deir Yassan: – Not burned in ovens, but the burning of civilians and those killed by the Zionist terrorists. This has been well documented and is confirmed by many primary sources including the murdering terrorists themselves:

        “When I got to Deir Yassin, the first thing I saw was a big tree to which a young Arab fellow was tied. And this tree was burnt in a fire. They had tied him to it and burned him. I photographed that,”

        https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2017-07-16/ty-article-magazine/testimonies-from-the-censored-massacre-at-deir-yassin/0000017f-e364-d38f-a57f-e77689930000

        The use of sexual violence against Palestinian detainees – once again, this has been documented for decades:

        https://www.omct.org/en/resources/urgent-interventions/israel-inhuman-and-degrading-treatment-including-sexual-harassment-of-palestinian-women-and-girls-detained-in-neve-tertze-womens-prison-ramle

        https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20230711-un-expert-accuses-israel-of-sexually-abusing-palestine-prisoners/

        It's worth remembering that these youths have been "detained" for crimes such as waving Palestinian flags and are sentenced under Israeli military courts without adequate legal representation.

        Here is the ex-State Department official, who has more spine and principles than Starmer, making that claim regarding the NGO – 8:40″ onwards

        The use of Typhus during the Nakba – once again, well documented but flies under the radar of the Western media. Behind an academic paywall but you can read the abstract:

        https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00263206.2022.2122448

        https://english.aawsat.com/home/article/3932421/documents-reveal-israeli-army-poisoned-water-wells-palestinian-towns-during

        More recently there was this,

        https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2021/01/israelopt-un-experts-call-israel-ensure-equal-access-covid-19-vaccines

        Which equates to biological warfare – "As the occupying power, Israel retains responsibilities for upholding respect, protection, and fulfilment of the right to health of all Palestinians living under occupation in the West Bank, including east Jerusalem, and Gaza Strip:

        https://apps.who.int/gb/ebwha/pdf_files/WHA76/A76_15-en.pdf

        Given the obviously deliberate and systematic destruction of healthcare services by Israel it's hard to see this as anything other than a continuation of their genocidal intent towards Palestinian society.

        As for Israeli "civilians" killed by Hamas on October 7, if you have a country where military service is mandatory with very few exceptions (Israeli "Arabs" being notable), can most Israeli's really be called civilians if they are in fact reservists?

        The fact that the IDF is largely a conscript army goes some way to explaining the atrocities they are currently committing as conscript armies have a very poor reputation – See the US Army in Vietnam.

        And just a few other things:

        IDF's deliberate killing of civilians sheltering inside a church and the shelling of the church itself where some disabled people were sheltering:

        “The Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem said the Israeli military killed two women and displaced dozens of disabled people sheltering at the Holy Family Parish.”

        https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-attack-church-compound-gaza-christmas_n_657f4c06e4b08e9b410ae0cc

        The deliberate attack on MSF staff, facilities and equipment, once again barely covered by the Western media:

        "On 18 November, an MSF convoy of five cars, all clearly identified by MSF logos, left the MSF premises… Despite the prior authorisation from the Israeli authorities, the convoy wasn’t allowed to cross the checkpoint and was left waiting for hours… I saw tanks and snipers at the top of the buildings… They started opening fire on us, and when a bullet grazed my forehead, I got a superficial injury. The bullet hit my colleague Alaa in the head… When [the bulldozer] pushed aside the cars, the western wall of the clinic fell apart. Then the tank came and opened fire towards the MSF cars and vans. The MSF vans caught fire. I was in the clinic; the fire and the smoke came inside. We stood there, thinking about how to stop the fire. So, we moved the children and the women through the back doors to the other building, where MSF has the physiotherapy department."

        The first day of the truce at 4.30 am, an Israeli tank destroyed the MSF minibus and cars that had been sent to us [from the south of Gaza] for our evacuation too.”

        https://www.msf.org/msf-convoy-attacked-gaza-all-elements-point-israeli-army-responsibility

        Honestly, why would people expect anything else from a state founded by acts of terrorism and ethnic cleansing, which it then glorified and made part of its national myth. Part of why it and the US get along so nicely really…

        Now wait for the inevitable – "Why do you care when you never said X about Y" BS from the usual suspects. The usual suspects who will sit nicely alongside Kissinger in Hell.

        [this comment was caught in the SPAM filter because it contains too many links – Incognito]

        • Incognito 6.4.1.1
          4 January 2024 at 2:27 pm

          Mod note

        • Paul Rain 6.4.1.2
          4 January 2024 at 2:36 pm

          Hilarious. So zionists can lie until the cows come home, but when human beings simply include links to the sources that everyone is well aware of that document that zionists only ever lie, and that they rape and kill for fun, that will get you blocked from commenting.

          An absurd position for supposed leftists. If you wouldn’t allow someone to say ‘Hitler didn’t kill enough jews, actually’, then you shouldn’t allow them to say ‘Israel has a right to exist’. The statements are equal in moral value.

          • SPC 6.4.1.2.1
            4 January 2024 at 2:54 pm

            It was Zionists who revealed Operation Cast thy Bread and historians like Ilan Pappe who provided the information critics of Israel use as their sources.

            It was the UN that determined that the state of Israel had a right to exist.

            • Brigid 6.4.1.2.1.1
              4 January 2024 at 6:14 pm

              Do you understand why Ilan Pappe long longer lives in Israel?

              Or are you suggesting he's a zionist?

              • SPC …
                4 January 2024 at 7:13 pm

                He wrote what he did while living in Israel. Are you claiming that he was not a Zionist while there?

                Those who researched Operation Cast Iron Bread still live there.

                • Brigid …
                  4 January 2024 at 8:07 pm

                  I just can't work out what your argument is.

                  It's irrelevant where those who researched OCIB live.

                  Pappe has never declared himself a zionist, in fact 'In 1999, Pappé ran in the Knesset elections as seventh on the Communist Party-led Hadash list.['- wiki.

                  It seems to me your knowledge of Palestine and the creation of israel is woefully lacking.

                  • Paul Rain …
                    4 January 2024 at 8:46 pm

                    Zionists are always very mad when [deleted]

                    https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=BXWFlKwemEQC&pg=PA158

                    [lprent: Your link reached a page at google books that was unavailable for reading when I tried it. To an experienced moderator, this usually indicates that you are brainless parrot trying to copy and paste from another source. Consequently I am removing the entire comment as being unsubstantiated assertions of fact. ]

                    • SPC …
                      4 January 2024 at 9:25 pm

                      not a single jew on earth with an ounce of morality who supports the existence of their genocidal terrorist organization

                      Has Ilan Pappe or those who exposed Operation Cast Iron Bread with their research and who still live there ever opposed the continuance of the state of Israel?

                  • SPC …
                    4 January 2024 at 9:39 pm

                    Are you also just pretending to be debating in good faith?

                    Look up the thread, at the claim that "Zionists are liars" – and the obvious refutation by identifying some truth tellers who were Zionists.

                    You say that Ilan Pappe was not a Zionist, despite living in Israel and standing for the Knesset for a party that supported a two state peace – a continuing state of Israel.

                    Maybe you and Paul Rain can agree on a definition of Zionist and get back to me.

                    It seems to me your knowledge of Palestine and the creation of israel is woefully lacking.

                    The resort to the slight. And the inference of your own more informed position. Typical of those who debate a small range of issues on a number of different sites, as a partisan.

        • SPC 6.4.1.3
          4 January 2024 at 3:16 pm

          Neither of the 2 links (allegations of various indignities against females) provided make any claims of rape, the You Tube video mentions an allegation of one rape of a 13 year old male by a Palestinian organisation (its offices were raided and some of its records taken after Americans raised questions about it).

          • Cinder 6.4.1.3.1
            4 January 2024 at 3:54 pm

            If I were you Paul, I wouldn't bother engaging with SPC unless you want to end up in endless semantic games and like chasing your tail. It's quite obvious a life spent in middle management in the Public Service has made them adept at equivocation. And don't expect any sense of shame for repeating Israeli propaganda which then blows up in their face when the facts come to light,

            "Findings show that sexual ill-treatment is systemic, with 36 reports of verbal sexual harassment, either directed toward Palestinian men and boys or toward family members, and 35 reports of forced nudity. Moreover, there are six testimonies of Israeli officials involved in physical sexual assault of arrested or imprisoned Palestinian men. Physical assault in most cases concerned pressing and/or kicking the genitals, while one testimony pertained to simulated rape, and another described an actual rape by means of a blunt object."

            https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0968808015000968

            https://www.cair.com/cair_in_the_news/israeli-guards-rape-palestinian-women/

            Consider, for instance, the story of Rasmea Odeh, a Palestinian community organizer and political activist. Arrested in 1969, “she underwent twenty-five days of nonstop night-and-day interrogation, during which she was beaten, raped, and witnessed the torture of other prisoners, including the administration of electric shocks to the genitalia” (Khader 2017: 63). These alleged tortures broke her to the level of agreeing to confess to involvement in the bombing of a supermarket

            https://www.berghahnjournals.com/view/journals/conflict-and-society/9/1/arcs090105.xml

            • SPC 6.4.1.3.1.1
              4 January 2024 at 4:34 pm

              It would have been smarter to advise Paul Rain to not make claims he cannot substantiate and not to make personal attacks.

              Confusing any questioning of claims with Israeli propaganda is pretty low level semantics.

              The context

              Within the narrow analytical framework of Israeli male soldiers, Palestinian women, and rape, the events previously noted would only reinforce the claim that rape is rare; we have only four testimonies of rape, one by a male soldier, one by two female medical soldiers, and two by investigators. Taken together, the carefully chosen category of rape (as opposed to sexual violence), Palestinian women (as opposed to Palestinians as a whole), and male Israeli soldiers (as opposed to members of Israeli security forces, both male and female), marginalize many forms of Israeli state sexual violence. They allow a deep disaggregation of Israel's security forces and of the overall structure of Israel's control in the oPt.

              This specific framing of the problem, especially the focus on rape and on a binary of Israeli men and Palestinian women, can be the result of an “overcompensation for the years of ignoring women's place in humanitarian law.” This tendency can be found in policies seeking to generate political change regarding violence against women. It is characterized by a specific focus on women as victims of sexual violence while neglecting the effects of gender-based violence on men, as well as a range of forms of gender-based violence (Franke 2006: 822–823). Miriam Ticktin (2011: 128–132) identifies a similar tendency in France at the beginning of the millennium. In the specific context discussed here, the chosen framework constitutes Palestinian women as a rare, albeit oppressed population, that is nonetheless not raped while overshadowing, if not silencing, other forms of violence, some gender-based, some explicit expressions of sexual violence.

              Through its denial, rape is raised above other forms of violence that are required to sustain Israeli control over Palestinians. But rape does not occur in a vacuum. It is part of a spectrum of sexual violence and of violence more generally, and its occurrence is also related to a specific set of conditions of structural subordination and vulnerability. As such, instead of functioning as an offense that sets aside all other forms of sexual violence (and I would add, of violence as a whole), it should alert us to being attuned to a spectrum of sexual violence. Rather than enforcing the claim that rape is rare, the existence of these testimonies should render the absence of other testimonies of rape more suspicious.

              https://www.berghahnjournals.com/view/journals/conflict-and-society/9/1/arcs090105.xml

              One particular claim

              A Palestinian female freed from Israeli detention said more than 15 fellow Palestinian women were raped by Israeli interrogators to force them to confess to charges leveled against them and collaborate with the Israeli intelligence.

              “Israeli investigators and intelligence officers keep video tapes of the raping to blackmail the female detainees,” she told IslamOnline.net, requesting anonymity.

              “I have been sexually abused and photographed. When I tried to travel to Jordan after my release and Israeli intelligence officer dumfounded my with the humiliating photos.”

              She asserted that this techniques has been used for years by the Israeli interrogators against Palestinian detainees.

              “They have used this raping techniques before my detention and continue to use it until today,” said the Palestinian woman who spent nine years of her life in Israeli detention…

              https://www.cair.com/cair_in_the_news/israeli-guards-rape-palestinian-women/

            • Paul Rain 6.4.1.3.1.2
              4 January 2024 at 6:07 pm

              Indeed. It's absurd that an open liar like this is allowed to spread their genocide propaganda on a supposedly left-wing, pro human-rights, blog.

              • SPC …
                4 January 2024 at 7:18 pm

                Making allegations you did not substantiate, slandering those who ask for verification of claims and then wanting them censored.

                It's as if you learnt to play in the sandpit with Trump.

                • Paul Rain …
                  4 January 2024 at 8:36 pm

                  Hilarious that you're accusing human beings of being influenced by Trump- who learnt at the knee of the notorious zionist Roy Cohn.

                  • SPC …
                    4 January 2024 at 9:13 pm

                    So you regard Roy Cohn as a Zionist

                    By Reputation

                    The truth was he hated what he was—a lawyer who hated lawyers, a Jewish person who hated Jewish people, and a gay person, fiercely closeted if haphazardly hidden, who hated gay people, calling them 'fags'…"

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Cohn

                    Is it because he was Jewish …was he in any way connected to Israel?

                    • Paul Rain …
                      4 January 2024 at 9:15 pm

                      It's funny, zionist, how you have no actual facts, just complaints that criminal zionist terrorists are being called out.

                      Roy Cohn was [deleted] of Allen Dershowitz, the [deleted] Jeffrey Epstein. [deleted]

                      [lprent: No link for an assertion of fact – so no comment. You really are kind of thick. ]

                    • SPC …
                      4 January 2024 at 9:47 pm

                      If the word Zionist has no meaning, just refers to any Jew – whether an Israeli citizen. or not. Or any anyone else who is questions this, and the term is loaded up with all sorts of derogatory associations.

                      Then it is a term used to promote the need for regulation of social media sites, as to a code of practice, so what exactly is your game?

        • Cinder 6.4.1.4
          4 January 2024 at 3:31 pm

          Sorry – wasn't aware that was a thing.

          Is there anyway around it or do I need to make separate posts for each thing?

        • lprent 6.4.1.5
          5 January 2024 at 3:20 pm

          I’ll pick up the baton for Paul Rain on this:

          I have been aware of many of these and linked a few myself in comments.

          Honestly, why would people expect anything else from a state founded by acts of terrorism and ethnic cleansing, which it then glorified and made part of its national myth.

          Yeah, the terrorist Irgun mentality seems to increasingly showing through in the actions of the Knesset and IDF. Now that the immediate state level external threats died down over the last last few decades and the border security, you’d have to wonder why the discipline that allowed Israel to survive amongst directly hostile neighbours has degenerated into simple barbarism against a much less well-armed insurgency.

          It is now clear that Israel as a state has no intention of dealing with the consequences of their actions in 1948, and instead are increasingly turning to actions of a barbarian state founded by Irgun attacking largely defenceless civilian refugee populations in the name of ethnic cleaning and religous barbarity.

          Unless that trend stops, I think that we need to look at disestablishing the state of Israel.

        • lprent 6.4.1.6
          5 January 2024 at 3:25 pm

          I’ll pick up the baton for Paul Rain on this:

          Yeah Paul Rain is increasing looking to me to be a useless lazy dickhead in this site who can’t think.

          I have been aware of many of these links and linked a few myself in comments.

          Honestly, why would people expect anything else from a state founded by acts of terrorism and ethnic cleansing, which it then glorified and made part of its national myth.

          Yeah, the terrorist Irgun mentality seems to showing through in most of the recent actions of the Knesset and IDF in the last few decades. Now that the immediate state level external threats died down, you’d have to wonder where the discipline that allowed Israel to survive amongst directly hostile neighbours has gone. That success has degenerated into simple armed barbarism mainly directed against unarmed civilians.

          It is now clear that Israel as a state has no intention of dealing with the consequences of their actions in 1948. Instead are increasingly turning to actions of a barbarian state founded by Irgun attacking largely defenceless civilian refugee populations in the name of ethnic cleaning and religous barbarity.

          Unless that trend stops, I think that we need to look at disestablishing the state of Israel.

          • Tricledrown 6.4.1.6.1
            6 January 2024 at 12:38 pm

            Nothing will stop the genocide in the middle East I think the Life of Brian summed it up. Both sides are equally culpable this title for tat vendetta will keep festering along with intermittent short periods of peace.The average person on each side would just like peace Religious fundamentalists keep the Vendettas ticking along.

            This latest uprising was perpetrated by Putin to divide the west's unity over Ukraine.

            Look at Africa Putin involved with Wagner upping the anti.

            Venezuela and Guyana.

            The Internet Russian bots and political interference blackmailing businesses with cyber warfare.

            Putin is retaliating because his military has been shown to be a shadow of the former Soviet Union.

            Until Putin is overthrown and a Democracy is formed no chance of peace.

      • Incognito 6.4.2
        4 January 2024 at 10:13 pm

        He’s all yours. Have fun!

  7. Jenny 7
    4 January 2024 at 8:51 am

    Can the US keep Israel out of Court?

    Will the US make a mockery of the so called 'International Rule Based Order?

    A genocide is being recorded and unfolding in real time right before our eyes.

    The targeting of civilian populations and civilian infrastructure is being normalised.

    Affects will be felt, not just the Middle East, but in the whole world. If nothing is done, this is how war will be fought from now on.

    "… And here, the problem, really, really, is not Israel, Israel is committing crimes against humanity, Israel will have to be held accountable, its generals, its politicians will have to be behind bars, and justice will have to be served…." Palestinian Ambassador to the U.K. Hasan Zomlot

    South Africa has submitted an application instituting proceedings with the World Court, against Israel for breaching the United Nations Convention on the prevention and prosecution of the crime of Genocide. The Genocide Convention.

    Israel demands that the ICJ must reject South Africa's legal application.

    Israel has claimed that the South African application to the ICJ has no merit.

    New Zealand has a role to play;

    New Zealand’s oral submissions on jurisdiction in Ukraine’s International Court of Justice case against Russia

    https://www.mfat.govt.nz/en/media-and-resources/new-zealands-oral-submissions-on-jurisdiction-in-ukraines-international-court-of-justice-case-against-russia/

    Will New Zealand again send a legal team to the ICJ, as we did to argue the merits of Ukraine's case against the Russian Federation over Russia's claims of genocide made against Ukraine?

    Or will the US put pressure on NZ and other US allies to keep our experts on international law at home?

    The always good, Democracy Now, Amy Goodman interviews the Palestinian ambassador to the the UK

    U.S. Complicit in “On-Air Genocide”: Palestinian Ambassador.

    ….The problem really really is not Israel. Israel is committing crimes against humanity, and will have to be held accountable.
    …..the US could have prevented these atrocities…
    We must revisit all that's happened, including the US role…..
    ….but definitely the US could have prevented these atrocities that have really shocked humanity, but it did, as you know, used the veto power to stop Security Council from taking its role and responsibility of enforcing law and order….
    ….the Biden administration is complicit, it has enabled Israel to do so, it has enabled Israel to drag the whole region in to this instability, it has enabled Israel to drag the whole world, look what has happened to the International Order, the rules that we created after the Second World War, the horrors of the Second World War, we all said never again….

    ….but also the effect of all this on humanity, on liberal democracy, look what is happening in the US, look what is happening in the UK. Look what is happening everywhere….
    ….undermining people's right to speak, to protest, to boycott…..
    …. Israel has normalised the mass murder of children,….

    • Jenny 7.1
      4 January 2024 at 11:00 am

      This is important. And it applies to New Zealand. To us.

      Francis Boyle is professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law. He previously applied the Genocide Convention for Bosnia and won two requests for provisional protection from the ICJ against Yugoslavia.
      Professor Boyle was among the first lawyers to win anything under the Genocide Convention from the International Court of Justice.

      Professor Boyle previously won two World Court orders for the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina against Yugoslavia to cease and desist from committing all acts of genocide.

      Professor Boyle is interviewed by Democracy Now, Amy Goodman.

      …….based on my careful review of all the documents so far submitted by the Republic of South Africa, I believe South Africa will win an order against Israel to cease and desist from committing all acts of genocide against the Palestinians. And then we will have an official determination by the International Court of Justice itself, the highest legal authority in the United Nations system, that genocide is going on. And under Article I of the Genocide Convention, all contracting parties, 153 states, will then be obliged, quote, “to prevent,” unquote, the genocide by Israel against the Palestinians…..

      ……Right now my sources tell me the hearing will be January 11, January 12. Based on my experience with the Bosnians, we can expect an order within a week….

      ……we set up a campaign to find a state willing to file a lawsuit at the International Court of Justice, the World Court…..

      …..we have a campaign now to support the Republic of South Africa at the International Court of Justice. And we are asking — we’re starting this campaign today. I’m part of a coalition. We’re starting this campaign today to get members of the Genocide Convention to file declarations of intervention at the World Court in support and solidarity with South Africa against Israel and in support of the Palestinians. That material hopefully will go out today….

      https://www.democracynow.org/2024/1/2/south_africa_israel_genocide_icj?fbclid=IwAR3luU2oDM596vKJYn5bv4-4Hl4MWDCK55ti65w5lILdRVA3tDB15IOEVkU

      This new campaign to get members of the Genocide Convention to file declarations of intervention directly relates to New Zealand.

      This precedent has already been set by us.

      New Zealand filed a Declaration of Intervention, at the World Court hearing brought by Ukraine against Russia.
      As a result of this filing, and in support of it, on the 20th of September last year, Andrew Williams, New Zealand's Chief International Legal Adviser (acting), stood up in the ICJ court room at the Hague and read out our nation's declaration of intervention in the case of Ukraine vs. the Russian Federation.

      https://www.mfat.govt.nz/en/media-and-resources/new-zealands-oral-submissions-on-jurisdiction-in-ukraines-international-court-of-justice-case-against-russia/

      It would be the height of hypocrisy, and an international embarrassment, if New Zealand did not repeat our nation's application as an intervening member to the Genocide Convention and omitted to file an application of intervention in this case.

      https://www.democracynow.org/2024/1/2/south_africa_israel_genocide_icj?fbclid=IwAR3luU2oDM596vKJYn5bv4-4Hl4MWDCK55ti65w5lILdRVA3tDB15IOEVkU

    • Tricledrown 7.2
      6 January 2024 at 12:44 pm

      You have left Iran and Russias deliberate escalation of this conflict .Iran supplying more rockets and more modern rockets at the behest of Putin.

      There is no solution to this problem its another edge of Empire conflict Israel the US sherif of the Middle East shoot first ask questions later. Iran the mercenary mate of Putin.

  8. Jenny 8
    4 January 2024 at 3:31 pm

    “Moral consistency, with out it, you have no real claim to moral authority”

    Owen Jones



    • Ad 8.1
      4 January 2024 at 3:39 pm

      What use is moral consistency to either Hamas or the Israeli government at this point?

      • Paul Rain 8.1.1
        4 January 2024 at 6:09 pm

        The Palestinian resistance would lose much face if it could in any way be proven that they had ever acted in an immoral manner. Fortunately, that's not the case.

        'Israel' is always entirely consistent too- consistently immoral and evil.

        • Ad 8.1.1.1
          4 January 2024 at 6:41 pm

          The goal of Hamas and its supporters is to bring Israel down to their same moral level. That, and go on another membership drive. Both goals achieved.

          I'd be putting any chips on Israel being behind the bombing in Beiruit that took out the Hamas's Saleh al-Arouri.

          That assassination looks like Israel changing tack to re-aligning Hamas rather than fully attempting to eradicate. By re-align I mean alter Hamas leadership sufficiently to make it more likely the remainder will negotiate. Risky because it invites multi-border scope creep.

          • SPC 8.1.1.1.1
            4 January 2024 at 7:23 pm

            He was their military commander on the West Bank as well as a deputy in their political bureau.

            So if there were moves to end their independent military wing and for the political wing to come into PLO – a precurser to a return of the PA to Gaza … for one command of the gun to become a more credible government of Palestine in waiting?

            • Ad 8.1.1.1.1.1
              4 January 2024 at 8:09 pm

              I don't even know what the bar looks like now, let alone finding where it's lowered to.

          • Cinder 8.1.1.1.2
            4 January 2024 at 7:43 pm

            Hello Ad.

            Speaking of "moral levels", why did you lie in your hyperlink on your post about regarding "de-legetimising Israel"?

            Your wording in the link claims: "Repeatedly found Hamas rockets in tunnels under schools"

            The report actually states:

            • The school was vacant – something you neglected to include.
            • No mention of tunnels – So why did you claim there were?
            • There is no mention of who was responsible for the placement of the weapons, if there were actually weapons because…
            • The afternote also states:

            "he Secretary-General released a summary of the BOI report on 27 April 2015 (S/2015/286). The summary indicates that the items found were not rockets; the Board concluded that it was highly likely that a Palestinian armed group might have used the premises to hide weapons but was unable to confirm with certainty what type of weapon might have been hidden at the school.

            So I believe you are in fact acting in bad faith. Or just immorally.

            Also, I note your consistent use of language of the coloniser. The "Savage" who uses" low cunning" to "trick" the "noble civiliser" into "indecent acts". – Paraphrasing there, but that what it boils down to.

            It's 2024 – Read some Frantz Fanon, you may be able to develop some new rhetorical flourish to obscure your actual intent.

            No-one is tricking the Israeli's into committing acts of genocide and ethnic cleansing. Thats on them.

            [Your commenting today has been problematic and you’ve given the Moderators a lot of work previously, so this is your only warning: lift your game!

            You refer to a post by Ad with a hyperlink yet you fail to identify the exact post and link and thus your attack on Ad is baseless and an utter waste of time. BTW, a post is not the same as a comment, but a link to either would have avoided the ambiguity. FYI, attacking another commenter here is not smart and draws the attention of Mods; attacking a TS Author (who wrote a Post) is outright stupid and crosses a low tolerance level for corrective measures by Mods such as an educational ban.

            You quoted a section from somewhere without providing a link. When quoting here it’s mandatory to provide links for others to verify and evaluate the source and to read the context from which the quoted text was taken for themselves.

            There’s a fine line between paraphrasing and putting words into someone else’s mouth. You crossed the line because we cannot tell which words in quotation marks were Ad’s and which ones in scare quotes were yours.

            Suggesting to another commenter to ignore a particular commenter, as you did @ 6.4.1.3.1 (https://thestandard.org.nz/corbyn-was-right-about-palestine/#comment-1983233), is not conducive to robust debate and is manipulative divisive behaviour.

            Don’t make me regret letting you live another comment here on TS – Incognito]

            • Ad 8.1.1.1.2.1
              4 January 2024 at 8:11 pm

              Cinder, I haven't provided any links. Or even quotes. But good on you for the purple prose.

              I'll do a post on Israel, Hamas and morality, so you can really go for gold at the Outrage Olympics.

            • Incognito 8.1.1.1.2.2
              4 January 2024 at 9:29 pm

              Mod note

              • Cinder …
                4 January 2024 at 11:02 pm

                Link to the post by Ad:

                https://thestandard.org.nz/terror-human-shields-and-delegitmising-israel/#comment-1977466

                The statement by Ad including the "misleadingly worded" hyperlink:

                "Since at least 2014 the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), whose sole mission is to provide relief to for Palestinians, has repeatedly found stores of Hamas rockets hidden in tunnels beneath its schools."

                You can call it an attack all you like, but the evidence is there.

                I asked this question on the post at the time and it was never answered by the poster.

                Feel free to explain why you worded the hyperlink like that.

                • Incognito …
                  5 January 2024 at 11:43 am

                  I cannot tell if you’re wasting my/our time deliberately, so I’ll give you the benefit of doubt once more.

                  Link to the post by Ad:

                  https://thestandard.org.nz/terror-human-shields-and-delegitmising-israel/#comment-1977466

                  That links to a comment by SPC, not by Ad.

                  It appears that you’re trying to link to Ad’s (aka Advantage) Post rather: https://thestandard.org.nz/terror-human-shields-and-delegitmising-israel/

                  You did comment under Ad’s Post and it was aggressive, accusing, and hostile (https://thestandard.org.nz/terror-human-shields-and-delegitmising-israel/#comment-1977464):

                  This is some extremely weak sauce. You even left your fingerprints at the scene of the crime

                  […]

                  Anyhoo – All of your post was rather pointless …

                  […]

                  You don't need to reply to this, no-one does.

                  How about instead we check back in 12 months once the ethnic cleansing is complete and we can see if you have found a moral compass

                  Going back to your present comment:

                  I asked this question on the post at the time and it was never answered by the poster.

                  I’m not surprised that the Post’s Author (i.e. Ad/Advantage) did not reply to you and I note that he didn’t reply at all to any of the comments under his Post – he wasn’t obliged in any case.

                  You can call it an attack all you like, but the evidence is there.

                  Your comments contain many personal attack lines and you seem to think that this is justified because “the evidence is there”. In this case, you’re incorrect because robust debate means that commenters present their evidence, examine & evaluate it, deliberate it, and then reach a mutually agreeable new position or agree to disagree in a respectful & civilised manner. It does not mean that commenters can have a go at other commenters with whom they disagree, which sets a bad tone (and vibe) for future interactions on this site.

                  You need to work on this. (NB you’re not the only one who could work on his/her commenting)

                  Feel free to explain why you worded the hyperlink like that. [my italics]

                  This makes no sense, as this is [in] a reply to me and I’m neither Ad nor SPC!? So, who’s the “you”? Or rather, try an inviting & conciliatory approach to getting the attention of the appropriate person here in order to get the answer to your burning question.

                  Stop wasting my/our time here and lift your game.

        • TB 8.1.1.2
          5 January 2024 at 8:09 am

          The Palestinians, those in Gaza, Hamas that is.

          They have acted in a more than an immoral manner, they did so publicly, they recorded it, they admitted it, they celebrated it. They planned it, this deliberate act of rape against women.

          Their supporters deny it. They know full well, to admit to the rape of women, is to reveal themselves as the oppressor.

          There is no greater act of oppression than the rape of women.

          The act of rape is a drug which drives the oppressor.

          They desire women, but that desire disgusts them.

          To cleanse themselves, they rape what they desire.

          But this degradation of women, is degradation of themselves.

          Pushing themselves to further moral deprivation, which further disgusts themselves.

          The oppressor will always reveal himself. He needs his drug.

          Just like the greedy desires gold.

          The greatest trick of the oppressor, is to convince the people into believing the oppressor is the oppressed.

          • Paul Rain 8.1.1.2.1
            5 January 2024 at 9:56 am

            Funny how you have no sources for your schizo ramblings. Meanwhile, even the 'israeli' 'police' have admitted to extreme zionist publications like Haaretz that they haven't found a single actual witness for rape by the heroes of the Palestinian military, and they have no physical evidence either.

            Where they have had liars tell the imaginary stories of 'rape' to them, they admit that they were unable to link these to any actual victims. Despite having had three months to do so. Because there aren't any victims of rape by Hamas.

            [deleted as not linked]

            https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/law/2024-01-04/ty-article/.premium/0000018c-d3e4-ddba-abad-d3e502980000

            [lprent: while it is nice that you managed to put in a link this time. Having it in Hebrew makes it irrelevant. See my note ]

            • TB 8.1.1.2.1.1
              5 January 2024 at 10:53 am

              And thus, the oppressor has revealed his true self.

              Many decades ago, in the closing days of the second world war in Europe. General Eisenhower stood in a concentration camp, he foresaw the day when the events of the holocaust would be denied.

              Therefore General Eisenhower ordered the aftermath of the holocaust to be documented to the fullest extent available at the time.

              The oppressor still denies it, in full view of the world.

              Now today the oppressors and their supporters, have gone from celebrating the rape of women, to denying it all together.

              No matter what side you are on. To deny the rape of women by Hamas , is to be an oppressor. To side with the rape of women, is to expose oneself as evil.

              Your true character is revealed.

              If you had any ounce of decency, any sense of a moral character with in you. You would denounce the act of rape against women, without qualification.

              You do not denounce the act of rape against women, so you must desire it.

              In another time you would have worn the uniform of an SS officer stationed in a concentration camp, you would have justified and gained pleasure and satisfaction in the mechanised mass murder of your fellow human.

              You must be close to, or at the point where you will lose what is human in you. Once you have gone past that point you will be totally and utterly lost to humanity.

              • Paul Rain …
                5 January 2024 at 11:05 am

                Please seek mental health treatment for your problems, zionist.

                [lprent: Clearly as a died in the wool lazy fuckwit who never listens to anything, you aren’t listening to moderators. You are now on auto-moderation until you can learn how to debate or moderator patience dies ]

                • lprent …
                  5 January 2024 at 3:32 pm

                  I have determined that you are useless lazy unthinking dickhead and not providing anything of use to this site. All of your comments are now subject to automatic moderation until I and the moderators get tired of amending your stupid outbursts. Which won’t be too far away.

                  Your comments are notable in the way that they reduce the impact of your purported arguments. So much so that I’m starting to consider you are being a false flag operative.

                  Please learn how to debate robustly before my patience is exhausted. Also respond to this message so that I can see that you have seen and acknowledged it.

            • David 8.1.1.2.1.2
              5 January 2024 at 11:34 am

              "Meanwhile, even the 'israeli' 'police' have admitted to extreme zionist publications like Haaretz that they haven't found a single actual witness for rape by the heroes of the Palestinian military, and they have no physical evidence either"

              Apologies for the graphic nature of the following:

              "Police have privately shown journalists a single horrific testimony that they filmed of a woman who was at the Nova festival site during the attack. She describes seeing Hamas fighters gang rape a woman and mutilate her, before the last of her attackers shot her in the head as he continued to rape her. In the video, the woman known as Witness S mimes the attackers picking up and passing the victim from one to another. "She was alive," the witness says. "She was bleeding from her back." She goes on to detail how the men cut off parts of the victim's body during the assault. They sliced her breast and threw it on the street," she says. "They were playing with it." The victim was passed to another man in uniform, she continues. "He penetrated her, and shot her in the head before he finished. He didn't even pick up his pants; he shoots and ejaculates."

              Israel Gaza: Hamas raped and mutilated women on 7 October, BBC hears – BBC News

              From the same source:

              "Police say they have "multiple" eye-witness accounts of sexual assault, but wouldn't give any more clarification on how many. When we spoke to them, they hadn't yet interviewed any surviving victims."

              and

              "Multiple photographs from the sites after the attack show the bodies of women naked from the waist down, or with their underwear ripped to one side, legs splayed, with signs of trauma to their genitals and legs."

              I will link to a few other sources, but won't clog up the post any more:

              Women raped by Hamas were found with nails driven into their thighs and groin and were passed around by terrorists who slaughtered them after or even during gang-rape, horrifying new witness accounts of October 7 reveal | Daily Mail Online

              Their bodies tell their stories. They’re not alive to speak for themselves. (nbcnews.com)

              Perhaps, Paul, this is some grand conspiracy. Perhaps all of these women are lying, as are the journalists who have seen the pictures. I doubt it.

              Israel is guilty of many things in its prosecution of Hamas, but dismissing what are credible accounts of the sexual abuse of Israeli women by Hamas is not a reasonable or even defendable position.

              • Paul Rain …
                6 January 2024 at 2:39 pm

                Keep on telling your lies to yourself, [deleted]

                [lprent: You really are a offensive useless small minded shit head without any observable ability to contribute or to engage in robust debate. If you don’t have anything useful to contribute, then you don’t act like Trump and waffle meaninglessly and keep repeating your moronic slogans like a brainless parrot. ]

              • Adrian Thornton …
                8 January 2024 at 12:29 pm

                Maybe Israel should let in some independent investigators….seeming as Israel has a long and sordid history of lying out in the open about pretty much everything to do with the Palestinians….

                Independent investigation needed

                "Meanwhile, Turk highlighted that Israel itself had not responded to his repeated requests for access to investigate the allegations independently.

                "We take the allegations extremely seriously," he said, but "you need to go into quite some detailed examination of whether it's premeditated, whether it was widespread, systematic".

                "I'm not in a position to confirm this."

                He stressed that for weeks he had "asked the Israeli authorities… to deploy a team, my team, to monitor, document, investigate the issues of the horrific attacks on Israelis".

                "I've repeated this call and I hope it will be heard but so far, I haven't received a response."

                • David …
                  8 January 2024 at 5:02 pm

                  UN Seeks Access To Probe Sexual Violence Allegations In War With Hamas (ndtv.com)

                  "Over the last several weeks, NBC News has reviewed five interrogations of captured Hamas fighters, an Arabic-language document that instructed Hamas how to pronounce "Take off your pants"; in Hebrew, six images of naked or partially naked deceased female bodies, seven eyewitness accounts of sexual violence including both rape and mutilation, 11 testimonies of first responders, and two accounts from workers in morgues who handled the bodies of women after they were recovered from the massacre."

                  I'll leave you to read the rest.

                  As for your comment that Israel has a "sordid history of lying out in the open about pretty much everything to do with the Palestinians", you fall into the common trap of assigning guilt without context. This is a conflict steeped in hatred and violence from both sides. Both Arab and Jew are being used as pawns by vile, power-hungry leadership, who prosecute these conflicts from the comfort of secure accommodation a great distance from the actual conflict.

                  Call me a fatalist, but history tells us that what happened on October 7th will be avenged by Israel beyond what we have already seen, and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

                  • Adrian Thornton …
                    8 January 2024 at 5:41 pm

                    I hardly think NBC News is in the position to arbitrate the veracity of such important events….which is why it is very suspicious that Israel haven't allowed any independent international investigators to…well investigate…I wonder why?

                    This conflict is actually very simple….one group of people (the Palestinians) have had their land stolen by another group of people (the Israeli's, or at the time European Zionists and Jews)…with the cover and protection of all Western powers….. any other country in the world that was conducting this type of medieval genocide so publicly and openly would have been so sanctioned and shunned by the rest of the World by now, they would be forced to stop…but as we all know still Israel enjoys the forementioned protection of the West…including (shamefully) New Zealand.

                    • Pat …
                      8 January 2024 at 6:00 pm

                      "but as we all know still Israel enjoys the forementioned protection of the West…including (shamefully) New Zealand."

                      Why is that?

                      As you say, if anyone else was behaving so there would be little hesitation to protest such action.

                    • David …
                      8 January 2024 at 7:38 pm

                      NBC is in the same position as other media outlets who also concur with the accounts. And no this isn’t simple. Prior to 1948 the Jews were systematically expelled from their homeland over centuries – this dispute is nothing like what you claim. Israel is a legitimate state with an internationally recognised right to exist. It is behaving like a pariah in many ways. But the binary being presented by some here is total nonsense.

                  • Morrissey …
                    8 January 2024 at 5:58 pm

                    The bulk of his post is not worth commenting on, but our friend David's very last statement is interesting, viz.,

                    … there is nothing anyone can do about it.

                    Of course, anyone with any knowledge of this genocidal proxy state knows perfectly well that its state sponsor, Washington D.C., could end its reign of terror immediately.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    8 January 2024 at 6:04 pm

                    Call me a fatalist, but history tells us that what happened on October 7th will be avenged by Israel beyond what we have already seen, and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

                    Yep, that’s pretty fatalistic – in response to Hamas' unconscionable October 7th attacks, IDF munitions have now killed over 1% of Gaza Strip inhabitants. Netanyahu has a free hand to direct the asymmetric conflict in Israel’s Occupied Territories, and has repeatedly made it clear that IDF operations will continue for as long as 'necessary'.

                    Benjamin Netanyahu says Gaza war 'must not be stopped' until Israeli goals are achieved [8 Jan 2024]

                    • Morrissey …
                      8 January 2024 at 6:16 pm

                      Hamas' unconscionable October 7th attacks…

                      So the Palestinians cannot fight against their oppressor? Was all of what happened on Oct. 7th unconscionable? Was killing IDF soldiers and blowing up their tanks unconscionable?

                      If those stories about beheaded babies, and those mass rape stories were true, then yes, they would be unconscionable. They have been systematically debunked.

                    • David …
                      8 January 2024 at 7:26 pm

                      Yes, it’s grotesquely disproportionate. Thats the way Israel reacts to these types of attacks.

                  • Adrian Thornton …
                    8 January 2024 at 7:48 pm

                    Seems like Israel and Netanyahu have been funding Hamas as well as Iran….but then of course they would be…sowing discontent, violence and disharmony is what Israel has always done in the Middle East and most especially with the Palestinians….. it is plainly obvious (except maybe to the willfully ignorant) that the Zionists that have always controlled Israel, have never wanted peace…they only have ever wanted the Palestinians out of all of Palestine….that is just a plain and indisputable fact…hence the genocide we are all bearing witness to as we speak.

                    From The Times of Israel…..

                    For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

                    • David …
                      8 January 2024 at 8:08 pm

                      It surprises me that this is somehow news to you. Or this from the source:

                      "The terror inflicted on the civilian population in Israel is so enormous that the wounds from it will not heal for years, a challenge compounded by the dozens abducted into Gaza."

                  • Adrian Thornton …
                    8 January 2024 at 8:02 pm

                    "Israel is a legitimate state with an internationally recognised right to exist"…Israel is a ultra violent racist apartheid state run (voted in) by ultra Right Wing extremists…so no it does not have the "right to exist" in it's current form….unless you happen to be okay with that particular loathsome ideology?

                    Human Rights WatchA Threshold Crossed
                    Israeli Authorities and the Crimes of Apartheid and Persecution

                    Amnesty International
                    ISRAEL’S APARTHEID AGAINST PALESTINIANS
                    A LOOK INTO DECADES OF OPPRESSION AND DOMINATION

                    • David …
                      8 January 2024 at 8:17 pm

                      "so no it does not have the "right to exist" in it's current form…"

                      It's 'current form' is a democratic nation state, with a powerful Supreme Court. Israel has a prosperous, modern free market economy. It is, in all, a remarkably successful nation. If you want to strip a nation of its 'right to exist' because of actions similar to Israel's you will eliminate a long list of nation states.

                  • Adrian Thornton …
                    8 January 2024 at 9:42 pm

                    " If you want to strip a nation of its 'right to exist' because of actions similar to Israel's you will eliminate a long list of nation states"……the last time I looked, I had not noticed any other countries with over two million humans trapped in a open air prison, with water, food and medical aid all but cut off…children having limbs amputated and major surgry done with no anesthetic (but hey that"s Israel for ya, and as you like to say, what ya gonna do?) … also haven't noticed recently any other countries systematically destroying every single Hospital University School, Museum, Mosque, Church.and homes along with any humans in them (but hey that's Zionists for ya, as you like to point out, what ya gonna do?)….but maybe you can point us to that "long list"

      • Jenny 8.1.2
        7 January 2024 at 3:21 pm

        Ad

        4 January 2024 at 3:39 pm

        What use is moral consistency to either Hamas or the Israeli government at this point?

        Hi Ad. I am guessing here that you didn't click on the link.



        Otherwise you would have realised that Owen Jones was not talking about the moral consistency of either Hamas or Israel.

        But of the moral inconsistency of the West in condemning the attacks on civilian infrastructure and civilians, by Russia in Ukraine, while excusing or maintaining their silence over the attacks on civilians and civilain infrastructure in Gaza.

        I hope I can clear up this misunderstanding with a quote from the link.

        Hypocrisy Over Gaza And Ukraine Is A Disgrace

        Owen Jones

        410K subscribers

        108,475 views Dec 30, 2023

        As Russia launches missiles at Ukraine and kills innocent civilians, Western governments are in uproar. Yet when Israel unleashes far worse war crimes, there's not only no condemnation – Western governments are arming and supporting Israel's onslaught. The rest of the world isn't stupid – and this double standard will have devastating consequences for Western power for a very long time to come…..

  9. Wei 9
    4 January 2024 at 7:11 pm

    Excellent article.

    On another note, this conflict has proven that the right are equally capable of so called cancel culture, as are the woke left. The difference is the right do it in the interests of the oppressors, whereas the left do it on behalf of the oppressed.

    • Robert Guyton 9.1
      4 January 2024 at 8:19 pm

      That's good, Wei.

    • TB 9.2
      5 January 2024 at 12:47 am

      The oppressed undertook. Then celebrated. Then glorified. Then finally. Sanctified. It was this sanctification of the deliberate physical acts of, rape, murder, then mutilation of the oppressor’s woman, that revealed the oppressed true nature, he was in fact, the oppressor.

      The truly oppressed, those who have the capacity for a moral compass, those who have no desire to oppress. They and only they, can truly be liberated. Only they can be the freedom fighters.

      The true oppressor is revealed not only by his act of rape, but also his lustful desire, his hatred filled love and glorification of the physical rape of the oppressed.

      Maybe we all of humanity the countless billions of us, are all oppressors, because we must oppress. Our best hope then is to be the least oppressive. To choose otherwise is to choose to be the most oppressive.

  10. Jenny 10
    5 January 2024 at 7:30 am

    ‘We hold South Africa criminally complicit with the Hamas rapist regime’

    This is how the official Israeli government spokesperson responded to South Africa taking Israel to the World Court.

    In an extraordinary video address Eylon Levy official government spokesperson for the government of Israel accused South Africa of being in league with the devil and of being criminally complicit with Hamas for? For the crime of going to court!

    I have never heard that taking court action is a crime.

    Can taking court action ever be a crime?

    I would have thought taking court action was the polar opposite of criminal activity.

    I wonder how this will all play out in court?

    In response to similar inflammatory language by the Israeli ambassador at the UN, the Palestinian Envoy gave his devastatingly measured response.

    "You say we are repeating terror propaganda"

    “What in my words was terror propaganda? When we're speaking of international law, is that the part you're referring to?

    Or when we're quoting the human charter or the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

    Or when we were saying you don't get to kill Palestinian civilians, targeting of civilians, indiscriminate attacks, are war crimes?

    What part?…

    That's the absurdity of the argument you're making. The absurdity of coming here to explain that it's terrible to kill civilians and then kill them.

    The absurdity of refusing the rule of international law as the only standard by which we are all measured.

    The absurdity of saying the one talking peace is the one talking terror propaganda and the one coming to justify war crimes would be the peaceful one.

    The Holocaust is one of the worst horrors of the second, of of the 20th century, it's one along other horrors of the second world war that led us to build these United Nations and you are not allowed to instrumentalize it to justify the killing of Palestinians it desecrates the memory of the victims……"



    If the statements of the official government spokesperson and the Israeli ambassador to the UN are an example of the level of debate they will be bringing to the World Court it will be a very interesting case.

    • TB 10.1
      5 January 2024 at 11:01 am

      The rape of women is the greatest act of oppression against humanity.

      To rape a woman, is to show your utter contempt for the giver of life, it is to deny the sanctity of human life. It is to deny your own humanity.

      • Paul Rain 10.1.1
        5 January 2024 at 11:04 am

        What does that make those who, like the 'israelis', lie about the rape of their own, while routinely raping Palestinian men, women, and children?

        [lprent: No links. I guess that your spend all of your time fingering you teeny genitals before you write comments. I’d hate to see what your screen looks like with its genital smeared sheen. See moderator note. ]”>my note at ]

  11. Tiger Mountain 11
    5 January 2024 at 7:39 am

    What is effectively a 5 Eyes statement–i.e.US Imperialism–has been issued, calling for rules based international law to apply and end the Red Sea blockade. Others who the US has persuaded or bullied into support (Belgium!) have signed too. It is shameful but not surprising that New Zealand is a signatory.

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/us-partners-reiterate-call-for-end-to-houthi-attacks-in-red-sea/articleshow/106524360.cms?from=mdr

    The Houthi Red Sea action is obviously getting a reaction so keep it up I say–it is obviously effective. Rules Based does not apply to the Israeli butchers illegal, inhumane, genocidal levelling of Gaza and West Bank attacks of course. Let proper aid and supplies into Gaza before any solidarity actions are suspended.

  12. millsy 12
    7 January 2024 at 3:46 pm

    For what it is worth, the disdain that Israel and its supporters have for Palestinians is out in the open for all to see…

    As an example:

    https://www.middleeasteye.net/live-blog/live-blog-update/israeli-municipality-official-calls-burying-alive-subhuman-palestinian