Daily Review 19/06/2018
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5:30 pm, June 19th, 2018 - 49 comments
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Today, Hīkoi mō te Tiriti arrived in Wellington, with thousands gathering to march in unity against the divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...3 days ago
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Kua hinga te manawa kairākau o Te Rua Tekau Ma Waru Tiwhatiwha te po! Kakarauru i te po! Ka rapuhia kei hea koe kua riro! Haere e te Ika a Whiro ki o tini hoa kua ngaro atu ki te Pō ...2 weeks ago
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The opposition parties stand united for an Aotearoa that honours Te Tiriti, rather than seeking to rewrite it. Labour, the Greens and Te Pāti Māori are working together against the Government’s divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...2 weeks ago
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Evil, I think, is the absence of empathy.” Captain G. M. Gilbert, the Army psychologist , Nuremberg trails
Trump lacks empathy.
So did Obama’s drones and this country’s far right wing extremists when it comes to child poverty and homelessness.
yes dear.
No yes dear about it.
It’s been repeated many times here before – and obviously it still needs repeating. whataboutism is not a valid form of argument
Saying Obama “this”, and neoliberalism “that” does not make the atrocity that is currently happening on the US border with Mexico any less evil.
Thank you.
So whataboutism is now an excuses to give Obama a free pass. Joy.
It’s bad what happening on the Mexico border, but it’s the extension of previous policies. This is not a radical departure from previous policy of Obama, nor Bush. It’s implementation has a whole callous aspect to it, but that the thing with liberalism, it has a callousness to it which many on the left just chose to ignore.
It is NOT and extension of previous policy, and you saying it is doesn’t make that true.
You might like to read a little around this matter before you go making such slanderous and untruthful statements.
+ 1 yep it seems any goduseless reason to not concentrate on the children suffering now is good enough for some. Sad.
Who is doing what you saying marty mars, or is this more of your just making up shit, approach to a topic?
So aggressive you are – better watch your blood pressure their bub. Figure it out Einstein.
All I’ve been able to figure out is you making up shit again. I see you going to avoid the issue, how very Gosman of you.
What about the children and families adam – when are you going to talk about them? I think it is shocking and Trump and his lowly supporters should be ashamed. I also think that those who want to talk about other shit should start a thread – geddit now? Or do you want to fixate on some thing other than the suffering children and families forcibly being seperated.
Maybe you missed it, what is happening at the Mexico border is bad. And yes, children being seperated from parents is pure evil, I didn’t say I supported it, like you want to say I did. Your ‘making shit up’ argument rolls into town again.
What I did say, is Obama, and Bush were running with some bloody anti-human being immigration policy, and this is just more of the same, with a callous face. Funny none of that does miss the point, indeed it helps inform people how we got here.
But if you wanna go down the road, Oh it’s bad now trump did it, I can’t be bothered, either you face up to the fact the ruling elites hate working people and the poor, or not. Personally I want to see more humanity all round. But probably asking to much from liberalisms sycophants though.
Yeah well your ‘continuation’ line has as much cred as right wing claims, re ‘child crisis actor’s lines, to me – as in none.
Well maybe you might want to get your head out of the sand, and do some reading on US immigration policy for the last 20-50 years.
Try here for a start, it gets worse when you look at the amendments to the core act.
https://www.diazshafer.com/how-immigration-has-change-last-20-years
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/immigration-reform-obama-reagan-mccain-rubio-2013-2?r=US&IR=T
The US and many so called democracies have been turning into right nasty buggers when it comes to immigration. But if you want to bury your head in the sand about this issue and not want to have a look at the bigger picture, then feel free to run with what even line it is you think is better. It seems to me, you have your mind already made up, and lies and bs accusations is all you have.
Yeah anything to NOT talk about the children and families – just Obama bashing – spose it’s better than the Clinton litany. I think you are just a bully. Fundamentally a bully you are imo.
You got nothing, so it’s name calling and personal attacks.
Calling this attack on children callous is not enough for you. Trying to find out how we got here to this evil situation, is bullying
So unless I’m goose stepping to your take on issue, I’m fundamentally a bully. If i’m not worshipping the right leader, I’m fundamentally a bully. If I think we need to look at issue in contect, I’m fundamentally a bully.
Let me know when your not channeling your inner 2 year old, and we will have a discussion about this heinous situation, how we got here as a society, and how we can get out of it.
In the meantime, see you next tuesday.
Cheers – thanks for proving my point adam.
cheers – thanks for proving my point adam.
There comes a point when the excuses made by the alt.left for the alt.right become effectively identical to the excuses used by the alt.right for themselves and serve the same result.
One of the reasons why I can’t be arsed with The Standard much these days. That and the persistent misogyny – see A’s use of feminine identity as an insult, as per his usual habit.
yep rhino I agree
it really saddens me to see the infiltration of bogus bullshitters but I spose that is the way it works – and we can chose to participate or not – for me I’ve taken 6 months off and really see hardly any point in making the effort anymore especially with weka gone.
but there are some good, even great, people here and I really cannot tolerate bullys so we’ll see how it all goes.
Adam. Trying to wash reason over the shores of faith? It’s not a happening thing.
Trump and his policies came and come from nowhere. They are not based on anything or built from anything.
And looking beyond the borders of the US, dead people washing up on the shores of Europe, or refugee camps being burned to the ground in western Europe…these things, though they happen, don’t and didn’t really happen (oh, there was some acceptably fashionable wringing of hands for a few weeks after photographs of Alan Kurdi were circulated) but no-one really gives a toss beyond a head shake and a tut for what happens to “them” in general.
But give us a Trump – provide permission and a figure to hate. Then the victims become visible, if but for a moment in the peripheries of that lens.
Obama, like Kennedy, will be somewhat mythologised by latter day liberal zealots, and Trump’s role in that (Trump the aberration, Trump the non-continuity) is merely as the foil to contrast the mythological goodness of what came before.
0
Really, me thinks you should read the policy under Bush and Co. Did you miss the 2006 Secure Fence Act?
Yeah Trump is the problem, not liberalism as a fubar ideology.
Macro, it is an extension of previous policy
https://twitter.com/ImmCivilRights/status/1008902662828511232
and you saying it is not doesn’t make that true.
You might like to read a little around this matter etc etc etc
Do you still have your notes from when you were a student of logic and philosophy and all the things?
I’d go back and read them.
No it is not!
Here is a simple explanation for you:
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/19/17475326/family-separation-border-patrol-visual-explainer
No where in the previous policy were children separated from their parents.
Railing against Obama helps now how exactly addy?
Because these things don’t happen in a vacuum, no matter how much people spin.
Also I don’t worship leaders, even if the nominally on the left.
But it may demonstrate selectivity.
Up to you , … just my thoughts on some of the inconsistencies around. And we also do not want an echo chamber /one way train of thought either.
True , the situation needs to be handled a lot better , but I wonder if there is a disconnect by those on the ground and those implementing policy , which tragically , translates to a not so very nice situation such as the one mentioned.
And that really is my point.
The situation is that people escaping from violence in countries such as Guatemala, Nicaragua, and elsewhere are seeking asylum in the US which is one of the main signatories of the UNHCR.
http://www.unhcr.org/en-au/news/press/2018/6/5b27fea84/unhcr-urges-family-unity-southern-border.html
At present there are reports that up to 11,500 children have been separated in recent times from their parents in an unconscionable manner.
https://www.vox.com/2018/6/18/17475292/family-separation-border-immigration-policy-trump
This is purely the result of a deliberate policy by Trump and his cohorts to to for the Democrats into giving financial consent to build his stupid border wall.
And I happen to think that those people should stand up for themselves rather than expect other people to give them a good life. If they banded together it really wouldn’t take much to stop the shit happening.
You forgot the sarc tag Draco.
Persons from Honduras make up the majority of those seeking asylum (ie Refugees) in the US.
https://www.hrw.org/americas/honduras
No I didn’t. If those people want a better life then they should stand up for themselves, band together and make it happen where they are and not give in to the corrupt.
That sounds like a RWN and “taking personal responsibility” type of argument to me. Do you not think that some have already tried that?
It’s heart breaking to hear the stories of those who flee.
Here is the story of a nurse who was forced to flee from Honduras There are thousands of stories like this, and they are heard by immigration and refugee authorities daily around the world. My daughter worked at the Mangere Refugee centre and in Immigration assessing the stories of Asylum seekers who arrived in NZ. It was a traumatising job. But each one of these stories is carefully checked for accuracy before any decision is made on granting Refugee status.
It’s even more heartbreaking to hear that those travelling with children are being separated from them on entering the US because Trump wants to build a stupid wall. As a deterrent this inhumane policy has had no effect whatsoever. The number of arrivals has increased by 5% since its implementation.
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/06/18/politics/family-separation-deterrence-dhs/index.html
You really do sound like Hosking or Trump, Draco. Next you’ll be suggesting refugees be trained, armed and returned from whence they came.
People flee to preserve their lives and the lives of their families. “Not give in to the corrupt” is easy to type when you’re not in the clutches of the corrupt. Not so much when you have a child to feed and a gun to your head.
There’s a reason people resisting the nazis or other gangsters are called heroes. It’s because many of them are dead.
Of course it’s a ‘valid form of argument’…
only to a fool.
A fool believes they decide what constitutes validity of ‘debate/argument’…
No matter how many senior managers parrot the ‘whataboutism’ line changes nothing…
ALL arguments are valid…that you don’t like it or disagree is nothing other than your inability to grasp a simple concept…
Senior Manager
Thank you for proving my case so convincingly
Macro, we’ve had these conversations before…
Again it seems you falter with elementary level understandings…
Just because you or anyone else disagrees with a tabled argument or debate angle….does not invalidate that argument or debate angle…
All are valid…think it through senior manager…
Edit: Example…Your arguments are lacking in basic logic for the most part…but your arguments are as valid as any other…
I’m sorry One Two but it seems you wouldn’t know what a valid argument was if you fell over one.
There are such things as logical fallacies. You might like to read about them sometime.
Failing to argue in a logical manner can often lead to an unsound conclusion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy
“Whataboutism” is a type of logical fallacy that falls under the category of Tu quoque, or the appeal to hypocrisy. It is an informal fallacy in that it intends to discredit a position or circumstance by asserting the opponent’s failure to act consistently in accordance with its conclusion(s).
I majored in logic, philosophy, and mathematics, and have taught logic for baccalaureate.
To be clear, is this the same as the well-known Labour-did-it-too ‘argument’?
Yeah you’ve made the claim about your credentials previously, and again they don’t stack up against the comments you’re making here…
Claiming ‘whaboutism’ is a form of censorship and dismissive of the VALID argument Adam made…
Certainly there are topics in which you are strong on, however there are some gaping holes in your self proclaimed ‘areas of expertise’…
Spruiking yourself tells me you lack belief in your own position…appealing to ‘self authority’ is weak…
All arguments are valid, macro…the same way all human beings and their opinions are valid…
Nobody is above that!
I think Katipo’s point is that this has been happening in various shapes and forms going back over the last 300 years or so, in the USA. This reallty, truly is par for the course.
Whilst the US is hardly a bastion of humanitarian rights – It’s history of near annihilation of native americans, slavery, antagonistic laws wrt to workers rights, slowness in introducing women’s suffrage, poor public health, constant bias against LGBT, abortion, and underlying racial bias, to name just a few social ills – this is a new low in inhumanity and has caused outrage across all sectors of US society. All 4 living past First ladies have condemned the practice. Melania Trump, meanwhile, placed the blame on “both sides,” saying that she “hates to see children separated from their families and hopes both sides of the aisle can finally come together. Hardly a ringing endorsement of her husbands policy. “The churches including those who supported in the past Trump have expressed their concern that this policy is evil; and the both sides of the house disapprove. 56% of Americans oppose the Trump administration’s “zero tolerance” policy of separating undocumented children from their parents. 27% of respondents, meanwhile, said they agreed with the policy.
If you need a laugh.
Brilliant.
Part 2 is also out.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h9WbiRv80f8
Thompson and Clark used SIS contact to get contracts
https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018650018/nicky-hager-sis-relationship-with-thompson-and-clark-shocking
From the link:
So, an unscrupulous manager decided he wanted to spy on an employee or group of employees, so he calls upon an unscrupulous SIS operative who jacks up the equally unscrupulous Thompson and Clark to do the job?
This smells of rotten fish to me.