Explaining is losing

73 comments on “Explaining is losing ”

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1. One Tāne Huna 1

   27 November 2012 at 5:06 pm

   On the back foot?

   Was that how it looked from Planet Smith?
   • infused 1.1

     27 November 2012 at 6:03 pm

     lol. labour was whipped… what planet are you guys on.
   • Hans Gruber 1.2

     27 November 2012 at 6:34 pm

     To be honest, there were no crocodile grins or shark eyes by any of the national members. John Key was particularly ruffled by the end as well. I don’t care if it’s David C, S, P or anyone, provided they show some teamwork.

     Also, does anyone actually know what Tariana Turia is saying? I think it is English but I am not sure…
   • David H 1.3

     28 November 2012 at 10:02 am

     Yep you got to hand it to Key he can take a baseless line of bullshit, and just spin it to fit whatever the situation requires.

     Shearer??
2. Pascal's bookie 2

   27 November 2012 at 5:25 pm

   “but the leadership crack it was designed to bring out fell flat too.~

   I thought we weren’t going to be seeing any of them. All put to rest.
3. Zetetic 3

   27 November 2012 at 5:26 pm

   I can’t work out why Shearer doesn’t go to one of the many $300k range townhouse developments, rather than touring half mil four bedroom villas. They’re nice and they actually prove his policy is viable – well, that part of it
4. chris 4

   27 November 2012 at 5:28 pm

   Oh really? That’s Key being put in his place? Us left wing voters really are fucked..
5. fisiani 5

   27 November 2012 at 5:52 pm

   [lprent: I was very tempted to leave this in spam because it should be linked (and I bet it has a place alreday on the net). But I’ll leave it here for discussion ]

   Every 11.5 minutes of the working week Shearer has promised what follows below. I have made it simple enough for people to understand. No wonder he could not defend it. Nor could he defend how he can find 100,000 sections each at $50,000 cos it’s indefensible.
   It’s a plot I tell thee. Someone has set him up for failure and ridicule. It’s the only possible explanation.

   1. STAKE LOT

   2. TEMPORARY UTILITIES

   3. CLEAR AND ROUGH GRADE

   4. WELL

   5. EXCAVATE

   6. FOOTINGS

   7. FOUNDATION

   8. WATERPROOF AND FOUNDATION DRAIN

   9. SEWER AND WATER TAPS

   10. BACKFILL

   11. SLAB PLUMBING

   12. SLAB OR BASEMENT FLOOR

   13. FRAMING, WINDOWS, AND EXT DOORS

   14. EXTERIOR SIDING AND TRIM

   15. GARAGE DOOR AND EXTERIOR LOCKS

   16. BACK-OUT FRAMING

   17. FIREPLACE AND CHIMNEY

   18. STAIRS

   19. ROUGH HVAC

   20. ROUGH PLUMBING

   21. ROOFING

   22. ROUGH ELECTRICAL

   23. ELECTRIC & GAS METER SET

   24. GUTTERS AND DOWNSPOUTS

   25. EXTERIOR PAINT 26. INSULATION

   27. TEMPORARY HEAT

   28. DRYWALL

   29. CABINETS

   30. INTERIOR DOORS AND TRIM

   31. PAINT AND WALLPAPER

   32. WOOD FLOORS

   33. COUNTER TOPS

   34. VINYL AND CERAMIC TILE

   35. SAND AND FINISH WOOD FLOORS

   36. APPLIANCES & SPECIAL EQUIPM’T

   37. FINISH ELECTRICAL

   38. FINISH PLUMBING

   39. FINISH HVAC & FINAL HEAT

   40. SHOWER DOORS AND MIRRORS

   41. CARPET

   42. HARDWARE AND SCREENS

   43. DRYWALL REPAIRS

   44. CLEAN UP

   45. FINAL PAINT

   46. FINAL WOOD FLOOR FINISH

   47. RETAINING WALLS

   48. WALKS, DRIVES, AND PATIOS

   49. SEPTIC TANK AND DRAIN FIELD

   50. FINISH GRADING & LANDSCAPING

   1. STAKE LOT
   One of the first steps of building a home is locating your new home on its lot. This will usually involve a surveyor who will come out and accurately drive stakes to locate your home on the lot. They will be used by the excavators and foundation subcontractors to guide their work.

   2. TEMPORARY UTILITIES
   You will need to have water, electric power, and toilet facilities available during the construction process.

   3. CLEAR AND ROUGH GRADE
   Clearing is the removal of trees and undergrowth from the actual construction site and yard areas.

   Rough grading is moving the dirt around to establish the approximate drainage patterns, yard areas, drive and walk levels, etc. that you hope to achieve.

   back to top

   4. WELL
   If you are going to have a well, you might as well dig it up front so that you will have the water available for construction.

   5. EXCAVATE
   This is where a piece of earth-moving equipment digs the hole for your foundation, and, if you will have one, your basement.

   6. FOOTINGS
   This is the structure where the house interfaces with the earth that supports
   it. All of the weight of the home rests on the footings.

   back to top
   7. FOUNDATION
   The foundation is the wall on which the first floor rests. It may be short – if you will have a crawl space, or tall – if you will have a
   basement.

   8. WATERPROOFING AND FOUNDATION
   DRAIN
   A waterproofing material or membrane (or both) is applied to the foundation walls which will be below grade to minimize water accumulating in the basement or in the crawl space. Foundation drains run along the footings and remove water accumulating in that area.

   back to top

   9. SEWER AND WATER TAPS
   If you are connecting to municipal water and sewer, this is where the pipes are laid to the house and actually connected (tapped into) the water and sewer mains.

   10. BACKFILL
   Pushing the excavated dirt into the hole next to the foundation wall around the house (inside and out). This is a good time to establish the necessary drainage away from the house at the foundation wall.

   11. SLAB PLUMBING
   Any plumbing that needs to go into the basement floor is installed here.

   12. SLAB OR BASEMENT FLOOR
   The “slab” is the concrete basement floor. It is poured at this point. In some parts of the country, plans may call for a “structural wood floor” (more on this later). Now is when it would be installed.

   back to top
   13. FRAMING, WINDOWS, AND EXTERIOR DOORS
   This is one of the most magic steps of building a house because it’s where it really starts to look like a house! The floors, walls, ceiling, and roof are the focus of this construction activity. The framer usually installs the windows and exterior doors.

   14. EXTERIOR SIDING AND TRIM
   Whatever you’re using – brick veneer, siding, stucco, etc.- here is where it gets done.

   15. GARAGE DOOR AND EXTERIOR LOCKS
   Some people wait until the end to get the garage door in. But we think having it in place creates a good place to store materials and equipment during construction. Installing the exterior locks means that the wholehouse is secure.

   16. BACK-OUT FRAMING
   This is a general category that includes partition walls that have not been installed, pillars, soffits for wall cabinets, and drywall nailers.

   17. FIREPLACE AND CHIMNEY
   A prefabricated fireplace should be installed before the roughs (below). A prefab will have a framed chimney. A masonry fireplace and chimney can be installed before the brick veneer (see “Exterior Siding and Trim” above).

   18. STAIRS
   Get these in now so that the subs working inside can get from one floor to the other without depending on ladders.

   19. ROUGH HVAC
   The HVAC (heating, ventilation, air conditioning) sub is the first of the three “mechanical” subs (plumbing, electrical, HVAC) to come to the job. He will install the duct work for your HVAC system and possibly the furnace. He comes first because the stuff he puts into the walls is the biggest and most inflexible.

   20. ROUGH PLUMBING
   Next comes the plumber to install his pipes.

   21. ROOFING
   With plumbing and HVAC vent pipes through the roof, the roofer can install the roofing.

   22. ROUGH ELECTRICAL
   Codes call for the house to be “dried in” before the wiring is installed. With the exterior windows and doors in place and the roof on, it’s time. For roughs, the electrician will put in the boxes (switch, outlet, and lighting) and will pull the wires into them. Cable, telephone, speakerwires, etc. are also installed at this point.

   back to top

   23. ELECTRIC & GAS METER SET
   You’ll need these in place to get some heat in the house for the drywall installation.

   24. GUTTERS AND DOWNSPOUTS
   It’s good to get the water away from the house as soon as possible.

   25. EXTERIOR PAINT
   Many surfaces on the outside need to be protected from the elements. So you’ll want to paint as soon as is practical.

   26. INSULATION
   Once everything else is in the walls and rough inspections are completed, it’s time to insulated your home.

   27. TEMPORARY HEAT
   With the meters set (above), the HVAC sub can get some temporary heat in the house. This will be critical for getting the drywall joint compound (mud) to dry in a timely fashion. The carpet sub also needs a warm home so that the carpet is installed at a temperature comparable to normal living conditions.

   28. DRYWALL
   Sometimes called “Sheetrock®.” This will be “hung” (nailed or screwed to the wall studs and ceiling joists), taped (at the joints), and “mudded” (joint compound applied) . . . after the in-wall plumbing, HVAC, electricals, and insulation have been inspected!

   29. CABINETS
   Base and wall.

   back to top
   30. INTERIOR DOORS AND TRIM
   The trim materials installed here may include the door casing, base mould, window stool and apron, window casing, chair rail, crown mould, built-in cabinets, stair railing parts, and others. This step also includes hanging the doors.

   31. PAINT AND WALLPAPER
   The first coat of paint is usually sprayed. Get it in before the hard wood floors are installed.

   32. HARDWOOD FLOORS
   Now it’s time to install your hardwood floors.

   33. COUNTER TOPS
   Counter tops are next. this may involve a different sub than the one who installed the cabinets.

   34. VINYL AND CERAMIC TILE
   Vinyl floor coverings and ceramic tile are installed. Two different subs. Probably should have made these two different steps, but I was trying to make it come out to an even 50!

   35. SAND AND FINISH WOOD FLOORS
   This is the first of two finishes. The last is done just before you move in.

   36. APPLIANCES AND SPECIAL EQUIPMENT
   This would include all of your major appliances – washer, dryer, range, oven, refrigerator, as well as any other special equipment you have specified.

   37. FINISH ELECTRICAL
   Here is where the electrician comes back to install the switches, outlets, light fixtures, ceiling fans, door bells, etc. He will also hook up the appliances, furnace, air conditioner, doorbell, and so forth.

   38. FINISH PLUMBING
   The plumber will install the sinks, lavatories,
   toilets, and all the faucets.

   39. FINISH HVAC & FINAL HEAT
   Your heating sub will install the registers and get the furnace and air conditioning running properly.

   back to top

   40. SHOWER DOORS AND MIRRORS
   Install shower doors. Hang mirrors.

   41. CARPET
   Now it’s starting to feel like home!

   42. HARDWARE AND SCREENS
   Typically, this is door, window, and closet hardware. Window screens.

   43. DRYWALL REPAIRS
   You may need to get the drywall subcontractor back out to patch some dings caused by the other subs’ work. This is normal.

   44. CLEAN UP
   This is the final interior clean up.

   45. FINAL PAINT
   Touching up drywall repairs and so forth.

   46. FINAL WOOD FLOOR FINISH
   This should be your last inside job before moving in.

   47. RETAINING WALLS
   These outside home building jobs can be going on while the work proceeds inside. You should not have these going on while the outside is being painted.

   48. WALKS, DRIVES, AND PATIOS
   You should wait until the drywall has been delivered to the home, because the drywall truck is VERY heavy, and could damage your flat work

   49. SEPTIC TANK AND DRAIN FIELD
   Same as above on the timing with regard to the drywall delivery. The tank holds the waste and allows microbic action on the solids. The drain field is where the effluent leaches into the soil.

   back to top

   50. FINISH GRADING AND LANDSCAPING
   The final finished grades are established to ensure proper drainage away from the home, and to prepare the yard for landscaping. Trees, shrubs, grass, etc. are installed.
   • McFlock 5.1

     27 November 2012 at 6:48 pm

     Not a bad bet, oh great and glorious moderator 🙂
     The link has photos and everything. And is copyrighted, FYI. 
   • Lanthanide 5.2

     27 November 2012 at 6:51 pm

     🙄

     IMO you should’ve just left this in spam, and banned fisi if he tries it again. He’s repeated this same lame comment several times now and it’s clearly deliberate.
     • One Tāne Huna 5.2.1

       27 November 2012 at 6:59 pm

       We need better wingnuts.
     • Draco T Bastard 5.2.2

       27 November 2012 at 8:38 pm

       Yeah, I would have gone with the leaving it in spam as well.
   • McFlock 5.3

     27 November 2012 at 6:57 pm

     On the discussion side, I’m not sure the Labour policy is that Shearer will personally do everything on the list 100,000 times in the ten years to 2025.
             
     It might need improvement, but it’s not as deluded as fizzzz 
   • Draco T Bastard 5.4

     27 November 2012 at 8:41 pm

     Every 11.5 minutes of the working week Shearer has promised what follows below.

     Yep and it’s been shown to you several times how it could be done and yet you still bring up this stupid BS about having to build an entire house in minutes.

     Really, you’re a fucken idiot.
     • David H 5.4.1

       28 November 2012 at 10:23 am

       Maybe we should let them in on the secret of building a lot of houses.

       Fisi

       You build them all at the same time using gangs of workers. NOT one at a time.
   • vto 5.5

     27 November 2012 at 8:58 pm

     In 1941 …

     we sent 8,000 men off to World War II, which had been raging since the 1930s,
     the NZ government built 4,000 homes,
     our navy was bigger than today,
     and our airforce had stacks and stacks of awesome planes, much more than today,

     all with just 1.6 million people.

     fancy that.

     Things were much better in the old days. Bloody useless younger generation.
   • mike e 5.6

     27 November 2012 at 11:06 pm

     Fishy looks like your swimming against the tide in the in the septic tank leaching away
   • David H 5.7

     28 November 2012 at 10:41 am

     Fisi WHY oh WHY do you persist with this 11.59 minutes.

     I’ll ask you a question How long does it take top make a Car, Just one? Answer A LONG time Ask Mclaren or Aston Martin they only make a few at a time. BY HAND.

     But Toyota in Japan can pump out a car every few minutes. It’s a nifty little invention Invented First by the Springfield Rifle company of America in the Civil War, and again by Henry Ford, it’s called a production line and Fisi it can be upscaled to build many houses. You just need a couple of things.

     1 A government willing to implement this. National=Fail
     2 the Land
     And Land like anything else you can always get a good price if you have the cash. And the best people at raising cash in huge quantities is a government. National would rather give this money to their mates in tax breaks than in doing anything that’s deemed to be good for the community at large. So again National=Fail.

     You may have seen that program on TV where they build a house in a week using an Army of people and suppliers, and as everyone is on the same page. Imagine that going on over a whole new housing community being built say a 500 house project being built BY an army of people. And the best part Everyone also has a job and has money so can afford to buy one of the thousands of houses they have built. It’s a no brainer, A win win. so Fisi just give it up, and admit that as a troll you are a failure, and you really need to find another interest.
     • Grant Hay 5.7.1

       14 December 2012 at 1:27 pm

       Hey David. Not arguing but thought you might be interested to know that the earliest example of mass production using fully interchangeable parts that I am aware of was an agreement known as the Porter Contract, to supply clock movements and agreed between Eli Terry as the supplier and Edward Porter who commissioned the order for 4,000 30 hour wooden movements, dials, hands, pendulums and weights. The contract was signed in 1806 and the order was supplied on time by 1810. Point being, mass production is something that’s been around for a while…..
6. Chalupa Batman 6

   27 November 2012 at 5:54 pm

   Ok its good to be supportive and its great you’re trying to pump your man up and give him confidence but really you think this was Shearer getting on top of Key…
   • Treetop 6.1

     28 November 2012 at 10:40 am

     Good on Lockwood Smith for doing his job for a change regarding Key’s rambling. Smith has probably had enough of the B.S.
7. Neologise 7

   27 November 2012 at 6:13 pm

   Our great hope timidly asked one prepared question after another prepared question, hardly outstanding, I’ve seen intermediate school kids have better oratory debating skills.
8. The Stepper 8

   27 November 2012 at 6:27 pm

   Mike I hate to say it but you’re looking a bit desperate. As per the comments above, if that was Key on the back foot then Shearer will be in serious difficulty if Key decides to take the offensive.

   Presumably the crack (which may or may not have fallen flat) about Judith Collins was the very first in trying to establish a rumour about potential leadership challenges in National? Alternatively it was some kind of insult – I find it difficult in the extreme to believe it was genuinely meant – in which case what on earth did you expect to gain from that?
9. Sunny 9

   27 November 2012 at 6:56 pm

   Meanwhile Shearer and Robertson will look splendid in scab at the premiere of the Hobbit tomorrow.
   • OneTrack 9.1

     27 November 2012 at 10:09 pm

     They will actually be dressed in bright hypocrisy.
10. alwyn 10

    27 November 2012 at 6:56 pm

    It was very lucky for David Parker in the house today that none of the National Ministers had a calculator handy when Parker made one of his wild claims.
    He said that building one house per hour, 24 hours per day, every day of the year came to 613,000 houses in 10 years.
    Well simple arithmetic says that the following calculation gives 87,360 houses in ten years
    24 (hrs/day) * 7 (days/week) * 52 (weeks/year) * 10 (years) = 87,360.
    This is the man who Labour regard as being fit to be the Minister of Finance. Where did they find him?
    The claim was made near the end of question 8 in Parliament today.
    • Fisiani 10.1

      27 November 2012 at 8:03 pm

      Your maths is correct. Building one an hour 24/7 for 10 years would still be 13,000 short. Parker really stuffed up and Heatley called his bluff..

      The problem is that if we realistically limit it to a 40 hour working week and there are only 48 available working weeks then the inescapable maths means churning out a completed home every 11.52 minutes. Every summer barbeque will have a joke or two about this incompetance.
      • Draco T Bastard 10.1.1

        27 November 2012 at 8:44 pm

        Actually, the joke would be about your and Nationals incompetence. The people who are fully incapable of understanding logistics.
        • vto 10.1.1.1

          27 November 2012 at 10:18 pm

          Apparently the egyptians built the pyramids. Do you think they would have been a labour lot or a national lot?
          • Draco T Bastard 10.1.1.1.1

            27 November 2012 at 10:41 pm

            I suspect that they were more used to dealing with the real economy rather than the delusional one (neo-liberalism) that seems to have been invented for the purpose of justifying capitalism and which National believes in.

            But other than that the rulers of Ancient Egypt would have been National supporters.
        • Treetop 10.1.1.2

          28 November 2012 at 10:55 am

          I saw the doco on child poverty on TV 3 last night. The condition of state housing (ventalation/mildew and heating) and how this contributes to child hospital admissions is not seen as an urgent issue for the government. The overcrowding resulted in scabies/school sores and the transmission of preventable disease which affect those under a year old, then those under five the most.
          • xtasy 10.1.1.2.1

            28 November 2012 at 10:20 pm

            I saw it too, and I made sure I did.

            It was admittedly a bit “politically coloured”, but nevertheless, it made some real solid points and raised very valid arguments.

            The fact is: Both Labour during last governments, and certainly also National now, have done stuff all to address the appalling housing situation at Housing NZ, and also in general.

            It has been left to “the market” for too long.

            What impressed me immensely was that Swedish doctor or so, who had worked in Wellington Hospital (as I believe to remember), who upon being asked said very correctly, that in NZ, when a government changes, it goes up and down like a roller-coaster.

            We have a system, where there is no second house, no extra control to scrutinise the government, except the mostly useless select committees. So once a party dominated government takes over from one that is the opposite, they start turning everything upside down and inside out, to serve their needs and their ideological ideas and plans.

            This is different in Europe, and I have clearly seen it myself, when I returned to there after about 11 years of first living here. They had made changes, in a number of countries, but here, it was a “revolution” by the Chicago Boys like Douglas, Prebble, Richardson, Shipley and the likes.

            It happens again and again, government departments get changed, turned inside out, heads of departments, CEOs, and commissioners and what else, they all get changed to fit the new government’s preferences.

            All this bears immense costs, and who pays the damned costs? The bloody people!

            So when in Sweden there is a change of government, from left to right, or the other way around, it never causes the same upheaval as here. In NZ it is like mafia like hostile parties fighting over ground, and then stamping their ideas onto the system. Both major parties have been guilty of this. This serves very well the monetary and business interests, as they will set their lobbyists loose each time also, to influence the quasi dictatorial governments in NZ. It stinks to heaven, and NZ has third world diseases, unknown in Europe for over 50 years.

            BACKWARD and 3rd World minded, a lot of it is, what goes on here.

            So Shearer must have seen the program too, tried to take advantage of it by criticising Key and his lot, but it clearly BACK-FIRED badly!
11. redfred 11

    27 November 2012 at 7:00 pm

    Key looked like and sounded like a right a tosser, and it clearly showed they don’t want to do anything about the housing affordability.

    Poor National, clueless really.
12. karol 12

    27 November 2012 at 7:10 pm

    Didn’t Phil Heatley, in not answering Annette King’s question, repeat that line that right-wing bloggers and commenters have been circulating? ….about the number of houses Labour’s plan would require being built very hour. 
13. gobsmacked 13

    27 November 2012 at 7:42 pm

    I have genuine respect for Mike Smith and his years of sterling service to Labour, but I fear he has been drinking from the same “half full” glass as Anthony Robins. Unfortunately the glass is empty.

    Here’s how Spin works, gents … Do accentuate the positive, but Don’t insult people’s intelligence.

    If you say “Black is Grey”, some people will believe you. But if you’re going to insist “Black is White” then not only does the line not win votes, it can actually lose them. It simply increases the perception that Camp Shearer is now detached from reality. A perception continually reinforced by the leader himself.

    Yes, I listened to (didn’t watch) the first part of Question Time. I heard Russel Norman ask a question, get a silly answer from Key, and immediately Norman threw it back at him. To loud laughter, because MPs knew he’d scored a point.

    In other words, Norman was thinking on his feet. That’s part of the cut and thrust of debate, it’s what politicians have to do, and all three main leaders (Turei, Norman and Peters) have shown they can do it.

    Shearer never does. Not in the House, not in the TV studio, not at the photo-op, nowhere in the media.

    Today was no exception.
    • gobsmacked 13.1

      27 November 2012 at 8:54 pm

      Here’s Scott Yorke’s perspective …

      http://twitter.com/ImperatorFish

      Like Tapu Misa, he is not some devotee of Cult Cunliffe. He was impressed by Shearer’s conference speech.

      But when Labour fail to follow up, fail to show the same focus and energy and basic competence in doing the day-job, as they did in preparing one speech, then people will naturally be frustrated.

      And when the leadership’s response to that frustration is more denial, more delusion, and even more circling of the wagons (“You is Blogger! Boo! Bloggers Are Cunliffe!”), then the cycle continues … and Labour are screwed.

      The way forward is to tell the truth. Not least, to David Shearer himself.
14. Skinny 14

    27 November 2012 at 7:47 pm

    Looks like Parker is being lined up to challenge Shearer ‘if the opportunity’ presents it self? & or is manufactured? I agree thought his math didn’t add up. Get it right & keep practicing Parker.
15. tracey 15

    27 November 2012 at 7:48 pm

    I wish fisiani and other nats could post as much detail about alleged national policies.
    • Fisiani 15.1

      27 November 2012 at 7:56 pm

      I would love to but it would be moderated away.
      Come away from the Dark Side. You will in time. As do most grown-ups.

      [lprent; We seldom moderate away your comments unless you hit the bounds of behaviour. Just do it in OpenMike. ]
      • McFlock 15.1.1

        27 November 2012 at 8:30 pm

        Being exposed as fantasies based on wishful thinking and a loathing of workers is not “being moderated away”, Fisi. It’s called a “reality check”.

        cf:    
        Highways that cost more than they’re worth.
        Cycleways that did not solve our unemployment problem.
        Reporting damage to school buildings that do not exist.
        Leaking the private information of citizens.
        “Resignations” that result in no paycut or demotion to the back benches.
        A “Brighter future” with massive unemployment.
           
        The list goes on… 
      • David H 15.1.2

        28 November 2012 at 11:31 am

        Maybe a Guest post Fisi’s fantasies.
        • One Tāne Huna 15.1.2.1

          28 November 2012 at 5:13 pm

          Yes! Brilliant! A guest post by Fisi! Please please please make this happen someone 🙂
    • OneTrack 15.2

      27 November 2012 at 10:17 pm

      Oh so now what Shearer announced is only an “alleged” Labour policy? Probably for the best with all the negative traction it is getting.
16. quartz 16

    27 November 2012 at 8:49 pm

    If explaining is losing then Shearer is the biggest winner ever; I don’t think I’ve ever heard him manage to explain anything.
17. Skinny 17

    27 November 2012 at 9:07 pm

    What Fish face fails too acknowledge is the housing crisis will affect the children of the 2 bob Tories!  Unlike the well to do’s, the 2bob pretenders won’t have the spare readies to handout willy nilly for their kids to get a foot on the property ladder.

     In summary;

     Nationals inaction on housing, coupled with unnecessarily high unemployment ( everyone knows someone made redundant lately) & not listening over Asset sales etc. All adds doubts that Key & Co actually know what there doing! 

     Kiwi’s as a rule don’t suffer piss & wind merchants too long.  
18. TEA 18

    27 November 2012 at 9:08 pm

    Todays question time was a laugh a minute.
    What was in your tea Mike Smith !
    labour was whipped raw, this lot is clueless.

    Nationals housing minister needs to go back to school to redo his maths tests though !
19. Blue 19

    27 November 2012 at 9:10 pm

    Proof once more that Shearer’s biggest supporters live on another planet. How can any sane person watch that video and see what is described in this post?
20. Saarbo 20

    27 November 2012 at 9:26 pm

    Mike, I suspect you equally haven’t got a very high opinion of David Shearer if that is your idea of an example of him putting Key on the back foot.
     
    But my question is why haven’t Labour got detailed costings on this Housing policy? Labour left the economy in an exceptional state when they handed the reins to National and somehow National have managed to convince New Zealanders that Labour’s weakness is in running the economy.

    Shearer needed to front foot this housing policy with every possible answer ready. He hasn’t, he has done a Phil Goff. Did the financial nous leave when Michael Cullen left? Shearer needs to do some hard yards with the bean counters and make sure he understands and retains every detail. A CEO of any NZ corporate would never get caught out the way Shearer has over this housing policy. Its a good policy, don’t f%$k it up.

    These guys make it hard to feel proud of being a Labour Party Member. 
21. PlanetOrphan 21

    27 November 2012 at 9:35 pm

    Good luck convincing the Gnats to pay wages/salaries, Key’s swinging from 0 to 2-3000 homes?
    You’ve got Keys attention, now you need to tell him how to print money ((-:
    • OneTrack 21.1

      27 November 2012 at 10:20 pm

      Greens are in charge of the money print operation. Have to pay for those houses somehow.
      • PlanetOrphan 21.1.1

        27 November 2012 at 10:25 pm

        Heard that before, a bit of a hole in the attack if true.
      • Draco T Bastard 21.1.2

        27 November 2012 at 10:45 pm

        It’s not about paying for the houses but directing the resources that we have into producing them. That’s why the government should be creating the money and the private banks shouldn’t be and why the government never needs to borrow.
        • PlanetOrphan 21.1.2.1

          27 November 2012 at 10:50 pm

          True as long as it doesn’t affect external economies.
          • Colonial Viper 21.1.2.1.1

            28 November 2012 at 12:11 am

            There is massive slack in terms of under utilised resources and surplus labour force in the economy right now. So quite a bit of money could be pushed into the economy before that becomes an issue.
            • PlanetOrphan 21.1.2.1.1.1

              28 November 2012 at 9:01 am

              True again, but we should be setting up processes/encouraging people to keep it stays local.
22. Skinny 22

    27 November 2012 at 9:48 pm

    Well said Saarbo! I cringed when Shearer got pinned down on the 50 k section’s in Auckland. It just allowed Key to deflect the housing crisis with ease. The devil is in the detail, so if your promoting a game changing policy crunch the bloody numbers & ‘own it.’  
23. OneTrack 23

    27 November 2012 at 10:22 pm

    Alright, I still can’t get over the sexist comment regarding Collins. I thought that was just not the done thing.
24. mac1 24

    27 November 2012 at 10:33 pm

    One track- ‘pink’ just might be a reference to Key’s referring to the colour as ‘gay’ and have nothing to do with the gender of the wearer.

    Secondly, please explain for me how that comment that Mike Smith made is ‘sexist,’ anyway. And the significance of beginning your comment with “Alright.” With what, or whom, are you agreeing?
25. Herodotus 25

    27 November 2012 at 10:38 pm

    “Labour’s housing policy is good: practical, ” I am continually reading such comments and unlike those who are making them with “No” supporting information I have provided figures to support my position. I am yet to read of any figures to support the $300k house and land package. With Annette King’s figures moving accordingly to fit the ever changing position, as basic questions are being put to Labour.
    And the minimal information and artistic impression given not to scale as to a guide as to section sizes based on the 90m2 building and the size of a car depicted in the drive way, giving an indication of the area of front lawn and the view from the lounge for the back yard (30 sec mark on TV 3 news item) does not support a 120m2 section more like 300m2.
    http://www.3news.co.nz/Labour-dreaming-with-housing-plan–property-developer/tabid/370/articleID/278168/Default.aspx
    Keys figures regarding Hobsonville also IMO need a OIA to clarify as they appear well over the top. $80k development contributions seem on the extremely heavy side.
    Where are these supporters with valid supporting financial basis to support the claims being made ????
    I am not against the policy in principle (especially if it adds to HNZ stock) but only in the poor financial justification to oversell as it is being portrayed. And not one post on any site has any financial numbers. Just cheerleaders.
    • lprent 25.1

      28 November 2012 at 1:12 am

      As far as I am aware these are all puff policies at present.
26. hush minx 26

    27 November 2012 at 11:07 pm

    Perhaps the deputy leader will fill in for the Labour leader one day this week in the house and then shine by comparison – and maybe he’ll have those numbers handy…oh i hate how cynical i have !
    • gobsmacked 26.1

      27 November 2012 at 11:54 pm

      Not cynical at all. That is exactly what is happening. See Q 12 in the House today.

      Robertson doesn’t have to do anything except a reasonably competent job, and wait for the inevitable. With each passing month, the caucus and the wider party will become more desperate, as they watch Shearer throwing away the election win. Enter the hero … reluctantly, of course!
      • McFlock 26.1.1

        28 November 2012 at 12:08 am

        cynical would be suggesting that he goaded Cunliffe into acting so they neutered each other.
             
        Wouldn’t be the first time leader A and contender B tuckered each other out, making way for contender C.
             
        Hell, 1066AD counts for that, and it was the routine for papal elections until JP2 screwed the system. 
      • David H 26.1.2

        28 November 2012 at 11:34 am

        Roberston? The jolly little rotund man always in the background with a grin on his face, and is always ‘washing his hands’ Sorry the “Fat Controller” comes to mind when I see him there.
27. ianmac 27

    28 November 2012 at 8:59 am

    I watched Question time yesterday Mike. I agree with your take. Seems strange to read those who claim to be Leftish being so busy doing National’s job for them, with insinuation and denigration. Weird it seems to me.
    And didn’t Judith look girlish in pink. Suits her.
28. KhandallaMan 28

    28 November 2012 at 10:31 am

    Mike Smith (and ianmac) 

    You would do well not to draw attention to Shearer’s performances if you want the membership to stop wishing Cunliffe into the Leadership role. 

    You have only highlighted  that the Conference performance was a once-off: the result of intenses coaching and rehearsal. 

    This is how it should be done:

     http://blog.labour.org.nz/2012/10/25/38028/
    • ianmac 28.1

      28 November 2012 at 10:42 am

      It is not so much support for Shearer or not. It is the searching and finding every little bit to support the anti and the negative stuff. Like a nagging wife. Once you start looking you will find them. Yes?
      • Craig Glen Eden 28.1.1

        28 November 2012 at 4:48 pm

        I would put it another way the people who are helpling the Nats are those who keep making out Shearer is doing the job when he isnt. If Shearer was taking the Labour Party forward and I honestly believed he could defeat Key and the Nats at the next election I would say so but he wont, he cant and its straight out stupid to be making out he is landing hits against Key when he isnt!
        So ianmac and Mike you can continue to say white is black all you like but it isn, Shearers got to go and the sooner the better because if he stays so will National.
        • Red Rosa 28.1.1.1

          28 November 2012 at 6:23 pm

          Got it in one.

          Shearer is the gift to the Nats that just keeps on giving.

          The whole thing is painful to watch.

          Maybe there will be enough drift to the Greens in 14 for some sort of Left coalition to win.

          And maybe not. Unless those numerous, disillusioned, one-time Labour supporters are galvanized into action, the Nats will cruise in by default.
        • David H 28.1.1.2

          29 November 2012 at 8:32 am

          Bingo. Shearer is just painful to watch in the house, the cringeworthy way of blandly asking questions. ( I once had an English Teacher who was like shearer, he could put a class to sleep in 5 minutes) Then he gets abused, and he just carries on blandly asking his questions. And when you have none, to bugger all, inflection in your voice, it just makes you sound BORING.
      • mac1 28.1.2

        28 November 2012 at 11:20 pm

        “The Boxer” syndrome, ianmac.

        “Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.

        la de da de da de da de da de da.”

        Complete with hands over ears.
29. xtasy 29

    28 November 2012 at 9:59 pm

    Sorry Mike, but that is NOT what I observed!

    If it was so, I could forgive and (hesitantly) start asking myself questions.

    Sadly, Shearer is flogging a “dead horse” now, nothing more and less, and King made a joke of herself too, both yesterday and today.

    They should have thought about all this well before the “Great Speech” of “DA Leader” (to nowhere), but somehow they did not do enough research. Hence now they suddenly pull out the argument, well we will use (cheap) “government land” and the likes, talk about mixed housing and so on.

    I always suspected that mixed and intensive land use for housing was on the agenda, but sorry, that is NOT how it was presented. They talked more about HOUSES than HOMES, which can be different things altogether.

    So no traction today, no traction yesterday, while Winston is digging into Key and so about the South China Airways deal. Also the Greens had a few good questions, and Labour is merely “trying”, like usual.

    Sad, sad, sad, soooo sad all this. I just wonder, but it shows, it is a bit like Hitler in the last days in his Berlin bunker, I suppose. Shearer will “fight to the end”, whether it makes any sense or not, whether it will lose more votes or not, it is now all about Pride and Dignity!
    • David H 29.1

      29 November 2012 at 8:44 am

      More a case of how many more votes are going to be lost as a result of this bloody mindedness by Shearer?

      The amount of those on here who are going to vote differently is climbing, and if the general voting public see a quarter of what we see, then Labour will be the poor sister to the Greens.

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