Mana vs Maori Party

128 comments on “Mana vs Maori Party ”

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1. Zorr 1

   1 May 2011 at 12:33 pm

   I think that was Harawira’s plan with this move. Get a poll of the community that actively matters pre-election. The Maori Party can only hope to come out even in this by-election, whereas Harawira has everything to gain and nothing to lose.
   • Zorr 1.1

     1 May 2011 at 12:37 pm

     Another note here as well. I spend a lot of time listening to NatRad and they had a small interview with Flavell where he was moaning that Harawira was stealing the young Maori vote and splitting the overall Maori vote with his actions. All I could think in response was “Cry me a river you moron” because they have made their bed with National and now they have to sleep in it.
     • Lanthanide 1.1.1

       1 May 2011 at 2:53 pm

       Yeah, basically he was saying “we deserve to get the maori youth vote, even if we don’t actually have any policies that benefit them”.
     • Blighty 1.1.2

       1 May 2011 at 2:59 pm

       the Maori Party’s arrogant attitude to the the Maori vote has always pissed me off. Remember how Turia bitched about the Greens running candidates in ‘their’ seats.
2. Colonial Viper 2

   1 May 2011 at 12:43 pm

   Harawira and his advisors have shown some gutsy political moves thus far. Bravo to them for re-energising interest in this election year and good luck.
   • Edge 2.1

     1 May 2011 at 12:46 pm

     Yo ! I’m with you there, Viper !
   • Draco T Bastard 2.2

     1 May 2011 at 2:12 pm

     It might be more a case of re-energising interest in politics overall. I’m hoping that it will spur more than 80% of the population to vote.
     • swordfish 2.2.1

       1 May 2011 at 4:03 pm

       Actually, that’s a good point. This might be the best opportunity in a whole generation to mobilise young Maori to vote – and, what’s more, to vote for the Left.

       If the Centre-Left can mobilise traditional non-voters then, of course, we don’t need so much of a swing from those who moved to the Nats in 08. Add to this the fact that some of the latter may well swing back to Labour in response to Brash and this election might just end up a damn sight tighter than some have been predicting.

       Call me old-fashioned, but there it is.
3. gobsmacked 3

   1 May 2011 at 12:47 pm

   Harawira has everything to gain and nothing to lose.

   Well, nothing to lose except the election. The real one.

   But hey, why focus on stopping a National/ACT nightmare in the second term, when there’s a civil war to be won?

   I’m sure we’ll be very excited on November 27 when we wake up to find that the Mana Party has gained a list seat from the Greens, and the Maori electorates have been split between three parties, and it’s all very interesting and …

   oh bugger, Key and Brash are running the country.

   Plus, MMP has been rejected in the referendum. Something to do with voters being sick of “minor party squabbles”, apparently. Gosh, who could have predicted that?
   • Colonial Viper 3.1

     1 May 2011 at 1:04 pm

     If the current Left were doing such a good job of catering to the electorate, how is it that Harawira’s new party even has room to exist let alone breathe?

     If the current Left were doing such a good job of catering to the electorate, how is it that Harawira’s new party has managed to attract so many serious, highly experienced left wing activists?

     And if NZ’ers remain such sheeple that they cannot tolerate uncertainty and ambiguity, and only want ‘strong clear leadership’ from just a couple of entrenched major political parties, instead of a plurality of parties representative of the actual make up of society, then yeah, they should reject proportional representation.

     The people get the Government that they deserve, and vote for, at the end of the day.

     Even the Greens will have to cope with the idea that they too are becoming a standard part of the political establishment, and that new, fresher up and coming parties will turn up from time to time.
   • QoT 3.2

     1 May 2011 at 1:07 pm

     This may come as a shock, gobsmacked, but there are plenty of people who feel that if Labour is going to continue to fuck around and waffle, if the Greens are going to drop the ball somewhat on social justice issues, then maybe the country needs a second godawful NACT term so the “left” can get its shit together.

     I would rather have a Key-led second term where his increasing need to appeal to moderates and maintain the smile&wave persona acts to limit the damage the right can do than a Goff-led single-term government with no fucking vision buddying up to Peters/Dunne/Turia and stiffening the public’s belief that harsh rightwing measures must be the only viable approach to our economic situation.
     • gobsmacked 3.2.1

       1 May 2011 at 1:44 pm

       No, it’s not a shock.

       There have always been people on the “left” who were prepared to sacrifice other people’s jobs for the Greater Cause, while heroically preserving their own.

       The “godawful NACT term” will be quite bearable for those whose livelihoods allow them the luxury of letting it happen. Hone Harawira, for one.

       The rest of us have more pressing concerns. It’s hard to be an armchair leftist when you can’t afford an armchair.
       • QoT 3.2.1.1

         1 May 2011 at 1:52 pm

         It would help to read the whole fucking comment, g. Those who are going to be fucking hammered by a second-term NACT government are going to get it a shitload worse if we all just vote Labour like good little sheep and let a waffling, no-direction, no-clear-vision Phil Goff convince middle NZ that the left is completely out of ideas. Yay, unprivileged people can have three years of Labour doing fuck-all to actually help them and then the joy of a resurgent, able-to-be-entirely-up-front-about-their-rightwing-agenda NACT government who don’t have to lie about asset sales, who don’t have to swallow any dead rats, who don’t even have the vague restraint of the Maori Party at the Cabinet table.

         You’re right, we should all just fall into line and assume that the last two and a half years of evidence that Phil Goff hasn’t changed his neoliberal viewpoint, has no fucking idea how to build a strong left movement, and has seen no problem relying on advisors who figured agreeing with National on almost everything, is going to magically turn around if we just hand him the reins of power again.

         Also, trying to attack me for being privileged enough to not have to worry about the consequences as much as those living in poverty would be a lot more successful if I didn’t own it.
     • Jenny 3.2.2

       1 May 2011 at 5:06 pm

       “Depending on the numbers”

       As seems likely the Maori Party plus the new Mana Party will have the balance of power after the elections.

       Last week’s Sunday Star Times poll reveals the makings of a Labour led coalition is becoming possible.

       But does Labour have the political will to take the lead?

       As many suspect Labour would rather not lead than have to make any concessions to either the Maori Party or Mana.

       Hone Harawira interviewed by James Garner on working with Labour

       Garner “And just in terms of you know trying to make progress you have a Labour Party and a National Party that have ruled you out, I mean arguably you’re completely ineffectual aren’t you because no one wants to work with you.”

       Harawira “Look I’m always keen to work with the Greens, and I think given the number of Labour MPs who’ve said that they’d be more than happy to work with me, I think Phil Goff is realistic enough to know that after the election everybody rings everybody else depending on the numbers, and I’m open to that.”

       In my opinion the next National Termed government will be the most damaging to the fabric of this country ever. Mainly because though the Nats would dearly love to launch their attacks on welfare unions and public services now, the truth is they don’t have a mandate for this sort of extremism at present.

       But achieving a second term will be spun as giving the Nats the mandate to launch a full right wing enslaught.

       Therefore it behoves all politicians who claim that they are opposed to neoliberalism to do all they can to keep the Nats out.

       If political leaders of the left or centre don’t understand this then they don’t deserve to lead,

       I have said this before; If Goff refuses to read the numbers, and tries to overthrow a majority will for a Labour led administration post election, then he should immediately be replaced by someone who has the determination and the drive to be Labour’s next Prime Minister.
       • PeteG 3.2.2.1

         1 May 2011 at 5:26 pm

         “If Goff refuses to read the numbers, and tries to overthrow a majority will for a Labour led administration post election”

         A majority will for a Labour led administration is very unlikely to happen. You can’t presume the will of people voting for small parties.
         • Jenny 3.2.2.1.1

           1 May 2011 at 7:46 pm

           “You can’t presume the will of people voting for small parties.”

           PeteG

           If the majority don’t against a National Party government, you don’t then stitch them up National Party led government.

           You can, but it is not democracy.
           Such a government has absolutely no mandate for imposing extreme right wing policies that have been rejected by the majority of the electorate.
     • Deadly_NZ 3.2.3

       1 May 2011 at 8:37 pm

       Only one problem with that scenario, and that is if Shonkey and Brash get their own way then in 3 years there will be nothing left All the silver will be owned by the rich mates of the greedy fuckwits in power. SO yes its all good to say wait 3 years but that’s like saying let the building burn a little more, we will put out the fire before it reaches the ground floor. Yeah right in your dreams, they will burn it to the ground and sing and dance as they distribute what little is left among the privileged.
   • Puddleglum 3.3

     1 May 2011 at 3:12 pm

     I don’t see how the Mana party picking up a few seats leads to the loss of the election for the broad ‘left’ (or, more realistically, how it decreases the chances of a win).

     So far as I can see, a reasonable proportion of the Mana party’s vote will come from former MP supporters which, if anything, would decrease the possibility of a National-led government. It may be that some Green and Labour voters (and Alliance voters) from the last election will vote Mana but all that would do – presuming Hone wins the by-election – is redistribute the (represented) votes on the left. Perhaps not good for the Greens or Labour but, then again, that isn’t the point at issue (i.e., how Mana affects the chances of blocking a National-led government).

     Also, it’s quite possible that some people who did not vote last time would be encouraged to vote because they feel that there’s a party that would, indeed, represent their interests. There’s always more potential on the left to pick up the politically disaffected than for the right, I’d guess (most far right people would probably vote even if they didn’t think that there was a party that truly represented their interests. It’s the ‘potential’ left vote that gets marginalised/alientated from the electoral process, usually.).

     I think you’re right, gobsmacked, that this could be used to argue against MMP. That’s something that might happen but for which there are simple arguments available to refute it – most obviously, that this is primarily an electorate based scenario, not an MMP one (i.e., even under FPP this battle would both arise and continue between Mana and the MP – Edit: Not unlike Winston creating NZF). On the point about the Maori electorates being split between three parties, well, if it happened, I don’t see that that would undermine the prospects of Maori interests being well served. With three parties seriously vying for your votes (four with NZF) that gives you (as a voter) wide-ranging influence over policies – i.e., you won’t be ignored by all parties bar one.
     • Lanthanide 3.3.1

       1 May 2011 at 4:43 pm

       The electoral maths really punishes fractions of votes that aren’t enough to secure a seat. If you win an electorate seat, you then need 1.66…% of the party vote to get a second member. So if you only get 1.65% of the vote, then you’ve wasted votes. So instead of splitting the vote evenly between 3 parties and having each of those 3 parties fall just short of getting seats, you gave 2 of the parties exactly the vote required to get a single seat, and the rest of the votes to the 3rd party, and you’d come out 2 seats ahead.

       This is exascerbated further by parties that overhang, eg the Maori Party at the last election. Parties that win multiple electorate seats, for whom the resultant party vote means nothing – in that case you’d be better off using the party votes for another party on the left that needs them. It remains to be seen how many electorates Mana will be able to win, so this may be less of a factor for them.

       The other thing specifically for the Mana party, is Phil Goff stupidly came out a couple of months ago and said he wouldn’t work with Hone, or a Hone-lead party, after the election.
       • Jenny 3.3.1.1

         1 May 2011 at 6:23 pm

         “….Phil Goff stupidly came out a couple of months ago and said he wouldn’t work with Hone, or a Hone-lead party, after the election.”

         Lanthanide

         Goff needs to be told in no uncertain terms, to work with anyone who could help him keep the Nats out.

         If Goff refuses to do this, and tries to sell the country to the Nats for a second term – not only should Goff be demoted, but he should be expelled from the Labour Party. For to hand the electorate over to the Nats when a Labour led coalition is at all possible, would be an act of treachery to Labour’s mainly working class constituency, who, by this action will be be left open to unprecedented right wing attack. For the constituency that the Labour Party was created to defend, to be left open to this sort of attack can not be allowed.

         All political wisdom says that to change a leader so near to an election is a death wish and I think we should do everything we can to see a Labour win.

         This is why I support Goff all the way through the election. But my support is conditional on Labour taking the Treasurey Benches. If after the election Phil Goff refuses to try and form a coalition with whoever possible. Then I think some other Labour MP needs to step up to role, if he refuses to take it on.

         In my personal opinion I think that this person would need to be someone with the necessary ambition and drive, and the determination to take the lead if Goff falters. This person should have the street fighter toughness to be able to argue Labour’s case in negotiations with junior coalition partners while at the same time facing down the Nats. and corporate lobbyists. Someone who puts the fear of God into the right. Someone with 21st C. internet savvy, but with long experience in government.

         In my opinion, the only Labour Party leader with all these necessary traits is Trevor Mallard, I hope Trevor is ready to take his chance if it comes, that is if post election Goff tries to sell us to Brash/Key rule.
         • Jasper 3.3.1.1.1

           1 May 2011 at 7:07 pm

           I think that Labour need to put the vote of the Leader to members at the Congress which I think is due to be held sometime this month.

           It’s all well and good to tell people “I have the support of my caucus” but the harsh reality is, it’s not the support of the caucus that Goff needs to be the next PM – it’s the support of the public.

           So if Goff doesn’t have the support of Labour members, and is indeed excelling in driving former Labour supporters into the arms of the Greens, then how the hell is Goff supposed to garner the support of the voting public?

           I say put his leadership to the membership vote. If the members want him, then he’s safe. If they don’t, then let the membership decide on the next leader. There’s a calculated risk in doing so, but the only thing that’s going to happen between now and the election are;

           1) Goff constantly firing the gun at his feet and;
           2) The media constantly bringing up “leadership coup” rumours every time there’s a whiff of an outburst from Labour.

           Labour can ill afford to allow the media narrative to continue on this path. If Goff has the support of members from the floor, then the media essentially have nothing to base their allegations on. If Goff doesn’t have the support, well, then there’s the opportunity for Labour to get the incessant Leadership coup rumours off it’s back.
           • Colonial Viper 3.3.1.1.1.1

             1 May 2011 at 7:16 pm

             Get with the programme, the Labour membership does not get to vote for the leader of the Labour Party, the caucus does. That’s the constitution.

             And by the way Goff is our man for victory in 2011, so get over it and move on.
             • QoT …

               1 May 2011 at 7:37 pm

               You know, I’m pretty sure that was Jasper’s whole freaking point, that it *should* go to the members but currently doesn’t. But hey, let’s just assume critics of Labour and Goff are stupid, that’ll totally help dispel the whole “Labour think they know better and refuse to acknowledge their own failings” idea.
               • Colonial Viper …

                 1 May 2011 at 7:40 pm

                 Possibly, but which parties in parliament have their leader chosen directly by the members? Do the Greens?
                 • Jasper …

                   1 May 2011 at 9:12 pm

                   The green leaders are chosen by their members.

                   Delegates vote for co leader
               • Draco T Bastard …

                 1 May 2011 at 8:50 pm

                 Reading Jaspers posts is almost like reading PeteGs.
                 • Jasper …

                   1 May 2011 at 9:13 pm

                   Except unlike PeteG, I make a point.
               • Jasper …

                 1 May 2011 at 9:18 pm

                 Thanks QOT. My main point here is that while Goff is telling us that he has the support of the Caucus, it’s not the caucus that need to be convinced Goff is the man for the job – tis the nation that need to be convinced. If the nation isn’t convinced that even Labour party members back Goff, then what hope do Labour have in convincing voters that aren’t even party members?

                 For the record, I cancelled my Labour membership after Phil flatly ruled out working with Hone (you just don’t copy Key, no matter what) and will be putting the $15 p/w I was gifting Labour towards the Mana party.
             • PeteG …

               1 May 2011 at 7:48 pm

               And last time by the sound of things Helen Clark arranged and proposed Goff as leader and the caucus rubber stamped it. No contest.
               • Samuel Hill …

                 1 May 2011 at 8:02 pm

                 I may as well be open about everything, considering I’m one of the only people around here who chooses to use his real name. I think you should all consider voting for New Zealand First this election. If you actually want to get things done, and get the wage gap closed without destroying New Zealand businesses – NZ First is probably your best option. I will be giving them my vote.
                 • Colonial Viper …

                   1 May 2011 at 8:14 pm

                   I’m really looking forwards to Winston firing the game up this year. But a little concerned that NZ First remains a party with a highly visible leader at the top but a much weaker team than it should have coming up underneath.
                   • PeteG …

                     1 May 2011 at 8:27 pm

                     Last time I looked on their website there was no team, just one Winston. Unless there is a major change (probably of leader) and a strong team put forward I will pass on NZF.
                   • higherstandard …

                     1 May 2011 at 8:29 pm

                     Yes we need Winston to run in this year’s election to truly bring high farce to a new level.
                   • Samuel Hill …

                     1 May 2011 at 8:41 pm

                     I’ll have you know that the processes are all taking place right now to build a strong team for NZ First.
                   • PeteG …

                     1 May 2011 at 8:44 pm

                     Funny thing, he was looked to for providing some interest in a boring looking election, and he’s not needed for that now. I guess he will add a but of entertainment, and yet more convolutions as people add up the seat possibilities.
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     1 May 2011 at 9:04 pm

                     Yes we need Winston to run in this year’s election to truly bring high farce to a new level.

                     Too late…listening to Rodney Hide saying that he was fine with his old friend Don Brash stabbing him in the back, and that he was quite happy to leave the leadership of ACT and it was all for the best anyway as he was proud of the way everything had gone because humiliation was a state of mind but not his state of mind, already blew the farce meter sky high.
                   • felix …

                     1 May 2011 at 9:13 pm

                     It’s like Brash took Winston’s toy away.

                     Poor Winston, he was gonna have so much fun with that toy.
                   • Samuel Hill …

                     1 May 2011 at 9:49 pm

                     Peters is only going to look better to the left when he makes Brash and Key both look like his toys. Not everybody is going to like Brash’s capitalist ignorance, nor Key’s controversy-avoiding, smarmy style, and all the leaders of the left have failed to damage Key significantly since he has been Prime Minister.

                     The underlying strategy for the entire left should be to attack Key and the government, and offer their own economic growth plans, forcing the Prime Minister and National into a position that separates them from Brash’s mantra. With Brash out in cold on the right, whoever lays the the most damaging attacks on ACT will likely gain a bigger portion of the floating ‘swing’, from both the left and the center voters.
             • Jenny …

               2 May 2011 at 8:44 pm

               “And by the way Goff is our man for victory in 2011”

               Colonial Viper

               But will Goff be allowed to turn that victory into a rout?
         • Deadly_NZ 3.3.1.1.2

           1 May 2011 at 8:44 pm

           Jenny, I have given up on Goff he should have gone along with Helen, And to hear himon Nation admit to still talking to Helen and then admitting that even his caucus members are doing this as well. I have to ask him “DO YOU WANT TO WIN THIS ELECTION? ”
           Because I don’t think he wants to win. I think that Phil has read one too many polls, and has already admitted defeat.
           • PeteG 3.3.1.1.2.1

             1 May 2011 at 8:47 pm

             His body language told a different story to his mouth when he was saying he was going to win in November. Not convincing at all.
           • lprent 3.3.1.1.2.2

             1 May 2011 at 10:10 pm

             Hey, I talk to Helen. Admittably it mostly consists of figuring out why her computer or network isn’t working when she returns to it after three or four months. But there is some politics, and even a touch of social chitchat (even if my interests in that usually make seven of nine look social).
         • Deadly_NZ 3.3.1.1.3

           1 May 2011 at 8:50 pm

           “In my opinion, the only Labour Party leader with all these necessary traits is Trevor Mallard, I hope Trevor is ready to take his chance if it comes, that is if post election Goff tries to sell us to Brash/Key rule.”

           Sorry Jenny But when This shambles that is the labour party rebuilds after the next election then they NEED to cut free all of the OLD mob like Goff, Dalziel, Dyson, Mallard and the rest, you need young and savvy blood in there and if you want to scare Shonkey and co just let Cunliffe loose. He has been gagged for too long.
           • Colonial Viper 3.3.1.1.3.1

             1 May 2011 at 9:25 pm

             Don’t you wail on Mallard mate, he’ll wail right back on you 🙂

             Yes, Cunliffe’s been sticking it good to English good all year!
             • Deadly_NZ …

               1 May 2011 at 10:10 pm

               Yep he can wail as long as he likes, all the way back to school.
           • felix 3.3.1.1.3.2

             1 May 2011 at 9:43 pm

             Mallard’s still got plenty to offer.

             Don’t buy into the right-wing propaganda, they paint him as old and useless because they’re scared of him, and they’re scared of him because he runs rings around anyone in the house and shows them up.
             • Colonial Viper …

               2 May 2011 at 12:12 am

               +1
         • M 3.3.1.1.4

           2 May 2011 at 12:05 am

           Goff will have to outwardly have support to give the left a chance but as you say Jenny I think Mallard is the only one from the old guard with the necessary moxy and debating skills that can zero in one someone like Key. Goff is just far too polite, which although lovely in a social setting, just won’t get the job done in the House – I want to see Key wincing every time Mallard opens his mouth.

           Hone has had the honesty and decency to call the right, his former party and Labour on their lack of care and concern towards the poor and I hope he does well in November – I’ll have to see if Mana is standing a candidate in my electorate.
   • Graeme Edgeler 3.4

     1 May 2011 at 7:38 pm

     Harawira has everything to gain and nothing to lose.

     Plus, MMP has been rejected in the referendum.

     Harawira probably wants MMP rejected. Under first past the post, there’d be 13 Maori seats.
4. PeteG 4

   1 May 2011 at 1:00 pm

   Harawira said Mana would appeal to intelligent Maori voters, but in the following interview I thought Sharples sounded more intelligent and consistent.

   Having a by-election where Harawira has to do well, closely followed by a general election where he has to do better on a wider scale to make any gains, will severely test Mana fundraising. Unite have been struggling to pay their tax bills, they won’t have anything to contribute. They will have to appeal to all the poor and oppressed to dig deep.

   Someone said mana is earned, not just a label you can co-opt. It will be hard earned.
   • Colonial Viper 4.1

     1 May 2011 at 1:06 pm

     I thought Sharples sounded more intelligent and consistent.

     Sharples is certainly better educated. But also seen as a leader of the Maori Party sell out to a white man dominated National front bench.
     • PeteG 4.1.1

       1 May 2011 at 1:14 pm

       As Sharples says, you can have a lot more influence from within cabinet compared to sniping on the sidelines, which is the best Harawira can hope for.

       Minority parties in coalition won’t have many outright wins but they can put on pressure for movement towards their preferences in policy decisions.
       • Colonial Viper 4.1.1.1

         1 May 2011 at 1:16 pm

         As Sharples says, you can have a lot more influence from within cabinet compared to sniping on the sidelines

         Yes just like one can influence the Devil by following at his side, I see. And as you suggest, the pay is far better in that position as well.
       • Zaphod Beeblebrox 4.1.1.2

         1 May 2011 at 3:36 pm

         Yeah, I think the Free French in Vichy France in 1941 used that argument too. Don’t worry about what or who you are supporting.
     • QoT 4.1.2

       1 May 2011 at 1:17 pm

       Remember that fucking prison Christmas dinner story? Jesus Sharples, just stick a sign on your forehead saying “utter sellout”.
5. millsy 5

   1 May 2011 at 1:06 pm

   This ‘Mana Party’ is going to be a Hone Harawira one man band – a vehicle for his ego. I can understand John Minto signing up to it, he would sign up with the Mickey Mouse and Goofy Party if he thought that it would help him bring about the Revolution, but Sue Bradford and Matt McCarten? I thought they knew a little bit better….
6. Jenny 6

   1 May 2011 at 1:11 pm

   R0B, I have gone to the link at Newsroom but I cannot read it as I cannot get past the pay wall.

   I have not been able to find any other reference to this story repeated anywhere else.

   Can you tell me who in the Maori Party has released this statement?

   This decision by the Maori Party makes no sense.

   In the end sectarian narrowness is always self defeating.

   To my mind the Maori Party has everything to lose and nothing to gain from ripping up this agreement. There is no way that the Maori Party can challenge Harawira in Tai Tokerau. But Mana supporters up and down the country are just itching to stand in the Maori seats nation wide.

   For instance, the Maori Party would be on a hiding to nothing standing against a high quality and popular candidate like Annette Sykes. Even if Sykes didn’t win, it is possible that in a contest between Flavell and Sykes, the Labour candidate could come up through the middle. In this case the Mana Party would have lost nothing but the Maori Party would be seriously wounded.

   You must wonder what has got into the Maori Party that they are so blinded by sectarianism that they are prepared to damage their own chances for seats in the house.

   If the Maori Party could only see over their enmity, they would realise that there are more advantages for them to abide with this agreement, the end result could be many more MPs in parliament to advocate for Maori right across the political spectrum.
   • PeteG 6.1

     1 May 2011 at 1:21 pm

     Sharples said the agreement was for Harawira to stand next general election as an Independent, and both forcing a by-election and setting up a competing party contravene the agreement.

     Interesting that the TVNZ news site under Q+A has links on both the Brash and Harawira interviews, but have nothing on the Sharples interview.
     • Blighty 6.1.1

       1 May 2011 at 3:00 pm

       just takes time to transcript.
     • felix 6.1.2

       1 May 2011 at 7:17 pm

       Interestingly it’s the other way around for me – there are videos of Brash, Sharples and the panel but no Hone.

       Also, New Rule:

       If you live in NZ and you can’t pronounce a Maori name as simple and commonplace as “Hone”, you don’t get to voice an opinion on anything Maori. I’m looking at you, veteran Australasian stunt co-ordinator Dick Johansonson.
   • Pascal's bookie 6.2

     1 May 2011 at 1:23 pm

     Especially given that Pita said they can work with Brash.
   • r0b 6.3

     1 May 2011 at 1:26 pm

     Sorry Jenny, I can’t add anything. I haven’t seen another reference either, and I don’t pay for Newsroom access. But I don’t recall Newsroom ever being wrong on a simple statement of fact before.
   • Hollyfield 6.4

     1 May 2011 at 1:28 pm

     Jenny, I haven’t seen any written release, but on Q+A this morning Dr Sharples said that the Maori Party’s agreement with Mr Harawira was that they would not stand a candidate in the next general election against him as an independant. Dr Sharples’ view was that Mr Harawira has broken that agreement by standing for a party rather than as independant, and by forcing a by election instead of waiting for the general election, and therefore their agreement no longer stands.
     • Colonial Viper 6.4.1

       1 May 2011 at 2:57 pm

       Damn convenient.

       An all out stoush in the Maori electorates then!
7. Alexandra 7

   1 May 2011 at 1:26 pm

   millsy, theres no chance that the Mana Party will be a one man band. Theres a plenty of strong, and capable maori women already involved. Anette Sykes being one of them. I think this development is a very exciting one for the left especially Maori.
8. Sookie 8

   1 May 2011 at 1:26 pm

   I just joined the Greens so I won’t be voting for Mana or slinging them some cash, but I wish Harawira all the luck in the world. I just hope he completely guts the Maori Party and doesn’t steal votes from the Greens. Most NZers sit firmly in the middle and there’s not many people who will vote for the ‘loony left’ parties. Unless they’re completely pissed off with Labour and very unlikely to vote for the Nats because of Monty Burns taking over Act. It will be a very interesting election this year.
   • Shane Gallagher 8.1

     1 May 2011 at 2:08 pm

     Great to hear Sookie! There are a lot of lefties (the older ones mainly) who just can’t bring themselves to vote Green – eg. the Alliance people and a fair number of Labour people – so I guess the Mana Party will be perfect for them. And Hone keeps saying he wants to work with the Greens first and foremost, so I don’t think there is too much to worry about.
     • Sookie 8.1.1

       1 May 2011 at 2:16 pm

       Yeah, I can imagine that there are some grumpy old lefties who don’t like ‘yogurt knitters’ as my Dad calls the Greens 🙂 I was Young Labour in the Nineties. I’m looking forward to getting involved in politics again as it is quite fun, and I wanted to something beyond bitching on The Standard and boring friends and family with rants.
9. green left 9

   1 May 2011 at 3:04 pm

   Yep very exciting year. Looks like the main election issue so far is privatisation (and the rising cost of living). Wonder what the other issues will be?

   Also be interesting the environment policies of labour, the mana party and the green party. Who will be the greenest? it will be a far more interesting election this year, especially in the wake of the uprisings in the middle east and post the large anti mining march down queen st which happened one year ago.
   • Colonial Viper 9.1

     1 May 2011 at 3:12 pm

     Vicious income inequality and the declining prospects for youth should feature prominently as well.
10. bomber 10

    1 May 2011 at 3:11 pm

    Well, the Mana Party that some here claimed wouldn’t happen has happened and is happening. The Maori Party will hold to the truce, they have more to gain taking the electorate seats while Hone maximizes the party vote. His aim is the 85 000 party votes from a pool of 640 000 benneficary and minimum wage worker electorate. His 5 MPs could change the Parliamentary Math. The Greens and Labour will benefit from moderates fleeing a Key-Brash Government while the hard right leave National and go to Brash’s new ACT. The Maori Party can’t do a deal with Brash, their future is to the left. A Labour/Greens/Maori Party/Mana Party can beat a Key-Brash Government.

    The message has to be a vote for John is a vote for Don.
    • PeteG 10.1

      1 May 2011 at 3:56 pm

      “His aim is the 85 000 party votes”

      That’s a big ask considering the MP got 55,980 party votes last election. Harawira seems to be appealing to tactical voting, it’s possible they will pick up new voters but it’s a lot of hope for an untested theory.

      “A Labour/Greens/Maori Party/Mana Party ”

      No Winston First? Not available or not required?
11. sdm 11

    1 May 2011 at 3:59 pm

    This notion that ‘moderates’ will want to avoid Brash can equally be applied to the Mana Party. It will scare the shit out of middle NZ, far more than Brash I suspect.

    In the meantime, the taxpayer is burdened with a $500K bill for a complete waste of time. Hone said he would cancel the America’s Cup funding – resulting in the government being sued, and costing even more money. But I suppose Hone would describe the law as a bit ‘fussy’.

    Maybe Unite can pay for the by-election, given the tax they owe.

    Plus you have Goff ruling them out. Either a) Goff is lying or b) Mana is irrelevant.

    Indeed if Goff is telling the truth by ruling them out, and Mana pull 3%, doesnt that make it harder for the left?
    • Pascal's bookie 11.1

      1 May 2011 at 4:19 pm

      Goff ruling them out counters the fear middle NZ might hold, numbnuts.

      Key says Brash is an extremist but won’t rule him out.

      So the higher ACT gets in the polls, the more extremist a Key led government starts to look. Key at the moment holds the center, Goff doesn’t. Goff doesn’t have any centrist votes to lose. Key has plenty of centrists votes to lose, and is aligning himself with extremists, while Goff is ruling extremists out.

      That’s the dynamic.
      • PeteG 11.1.1

        1 May 2011 at 4:24 pm

        “Goff doesn’t have any centrist votes to lose.”

        Maybe not, but doesn’t he need to try and win a few? Especially if Mana rob some off the left of Labour.

        Or has Labour given up on winning back anything and are just sitting back hoping potential coalition partners pick up seats to gift Labour a coalition?
        • Pascal's bookie 11.1.1.1

          1 May 2011 at 4:44 pm

          Goff needs to win centrist votes.

          Key, on the other hand, needs to defend his centrist vote.

          Key is saying that he will work with an extremist party.

          Goff is saying he won’t.
          • Colonial Viper 11.1.1.1.1

            1 May 2011 at 4:48 pm

            Key’s not just working with an extremist party, he resurrected the extremist party using his own long time National Party boys.
            • Pascal's bookie 11.1.1.1.1.1

              1 May 2011 at 4:53 pm

              He was happy to be the finance spokesman in a party led by the self same economic extremist.
              • Mac1 …

                1 May 2011 at 4:59 pm

                Who was extremist in 2005. “Wait till the second term, boys,” was the cry then, too.
                • Draco T Bastard …

                  1 May 2011 at 6:46 pm

                  Exactly, National is just as extremist as Act. People have forgotten that but I’m sure all that National have done and are promising to do will remind them.
                  • neoleftie …

                    1 May 2011 at 7:41 pm

                    some factions of national are as extreme right wing as ACT. Point is Key has afinely balanced party now and with the new look / lead ACT party looking for top table minsterial places things are going to get a tad unsteady in the Tory camp.
    • Colonial Viper 11.2

      1 May 2011 at 4:23 pm

      Hone said he would cancel the America’s Cup funding – resulting in the government being sued, and costing even more money.

      we’re the fraking Government, remember that anyone who wants to sues us goes against the resources and intransigence of a state power, so don’t be such a wuss.
      • sdm 11.2.1

        1 May 2011 at 4:37 pm

        So the state can just over-ride commercial contracts at will. Far out….
        • Colonial Viper 11.2.1.1

          1 May 2011 at 4:44 pm

          Of course it can, its a state power. If the state can frak over night time care workers with regards to the minimum wage and their employment contracts through the courts, why should it be afraid of taking on a commercial organisation through the courts too? Of course as you pointed out the other party can try and take the state to court. Did you see how well the Australian banks did against the IRD? So good luck to them.

          Gutless.
12. Samuel Hill 12

    1 May 2011 at 4:05 pm

    Hone Harawira says that Phil Goff is gone after the election – but if the Mana Party is part of a coalition that governs New Zealand following the election, he will have to be a part of a Labour Party led government that PHIL GOFF would have led to victory. Hone Harawira says he wants to stand up for the rights of the working person, but at the same time wants to create a separate parliament for Maori! How confusing.

    Hone Harawira has his heart in the right place – sort of. His staunchly left wing economic politics is admirable in that it is so antagonising to the National and ACT parties. He needs to terminate his ideas he has of setting up a separate Maori parliament, and learn to work together with the Pakeha who have been here for many generations now, and were born long after the processes of Capitalist Elitism began.
    • Colonial Viper 12.1

      1 May 2011 at 4:24 pm

      What are you talking about a separate Maori Parliament, you are full of ****. Making up policies on the hoof for the Mana party now are you Samuel Hill.
      • Samuel Hill 12.1.1

        1 May 2011 at 7:01 pm

        Excuse me Colonial Viper;

        Tino Rangatiratanga insists on Maori governance. The Maori seats is only a starting point for what the Tino Rangatiratanga movement is about. If Mana didn’t believe in this, they wouldn’t need to exist, and they would surely be split between the Green Party and the Maori Party.

        From a 2005 article in the Northern Advocate;

        http://www.northernadvocate.co.nz/local/news/from-maori-radical-to-key-player-in-parliament/3653236/

        Meanwhile, Mr Harawira has already broken ranks, saying during Saturday’s victory speech he wanted to reinstate a separate Maori Parliament. It would comprise all Maori MPs and have its first meeting at Waitangi. Mrs Turia played it down, saying the concept could be an ideal in 50 years time, but had not been discussed by the party.

        Watch this, Harawira says that a separate government has been the “dream of our tipuna for a long time”

        http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=WIftCtWNSEM

        Here is a quote from Q+A today:

        GUYON I wonder if this party itself isn’t a compromise. I mean, you came into Parliament saying you were there to defend and advance Maori rights. You’ve talked about a separate Maori Parliament. You’re even on record as saying that you didn’t really care what Pakeha voters think. Now you team up with these Pakeha guys – are these the same ones who have been colonising NZ and, you know, the mother-effers who’ve been ripping us off and raping our land for 160 years?

        HONE No. Actually, these are the people who have been defending the Maori right to defend Maori land, to defend Maori forest, to defend fisheries, etc, etc. We talk about the sort of Pakeha who want to be involved in what it is that I’m talking about here. There’s two groups, really. There are the very very strong activist group right throughout the country, and two, there’s the ordinary NZer who just don’t buy Phil Goff as the champion of the poor any longer, as the defender of the faith and as the person who’s gonna fight for their right to live a decent life in the land of milk and honey.
        • Colonial Viper 12.1.1.1

          1 May 2011 at 7:07 pm

          Excuse me Samuel Hill

          I am sure I will be able to find a relevant quote from Harawira, but the idea of Tino Rangatiratanga insists on Maori governance.

          1) Go on *where* then is this “relevant quote” from Harawira speaking as the leader of the Mana Party?

          2) Where then has the Mana Party said that Tino Rangatiratanga is one of it’s core party policies and in its manifesto?

          And you’ve included a quote where fucking Espiner mentions a Maori Parliament (not Hone), and when he does, Hone says NOTHING about a Maori Parliament. If you read your own quote, Hone has a go at Goff instead, and says NOUGHT about a separate Maori Government.

          You’re still making shit up for the Mana Party off the hoof.

          Put a capital L on your forehead mate, I’m of course happy to apologise if you find a quote from the Mana Party saying that they want a separate Maori Parliament. Good luck with that 😈
          • Samuel Hill 12.1.1.1.1

            1 May 2011 at 7:20 pm

            So you think that Hone Harawira is just going to become a new person with a new ideology now that he has started the Mana Party? What a complete load of shit. Thats the whole reason he started this bloody party.
        • Samuel Hill 12.1.1.2

          1 May 2011 at 7:14 pm

          Just as it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to work out that John Key and the rest of National will push their Privatization agenda to the extreme as soon as they know their political capital is up, I find it just as dangerous to allow mis-informed people like Hone Harawira to be at the center of any debate with the likes of Don Brash and Bill English. The right wing will attempt to shape the debate so that the entire anti-privatization left wing is thrown into the same group as Harawira.

          The fact is however, that Mana is a better option for Maori than the Maory Party. I would rather than Mana had 6 seats than the Maori Party had any. They have turned their back on their people in the most simplistic way. The Maori Party doe not understand that for all their work getting programmes to have a Maori ‘feel’ to them, all that will count for nothing if the capitalist elites of this country are allowed to push through their agenda – and whats more, the Maori Party will and already are finding that they are politically expendable.
          • Colonial Viper 12.1.1.2.1

            1 May 2011 at 7:18 pm

            Oh so now you’ve given up with the quotes and are just going to keep making things up?

            Keep the L on your forehead mate until you explain why Espiner talking about a Maori Parliament suddenly makes policy for the Mana Party to implement 😈

            The right wing will attempt to shape the debate so that the entire anti-privatization left wing is thrown into the same group as Harawira.

            Seriously who gives a shit what the Right are going to do? It’s the Left’s turn to seize the initiative with the formation of Mana, the Right can keep playing their games resurrecting National undead from the 1990’s.
            • Samuel Hill 12.1.1.2.1.1

              1 May 2011 at 7:22 pm

              Sorry if I pushed enter before I was finished. Your political Naivity about who has to win this election is quite stunning. Good luck with that.
              • Colonial Viper …

                1 May 2011 at 7:25 pm

                Cheers.
              • Samuel Hill …

                1 May 2011 at 7:25 pm

                I think the Maori seats alone is separatism enough for me.

                Ya know, I’d really love to see you applying this same logic eleswhere. You seem to believe that Harawira is absolved of anything he has said in the past. Imagine if you applied that same logic to Don Brash now that he is the leader of ACT.

                Its worth thinking about.
                • Colonial Viper …

                  1 May 2011 at 7:33 pm

                  Forget the Maori Seats, those are ho hum, its the wealth-poverty gap which is the real apartheid in this country.

                  And it is widening by the day thanks to National, ACT and the Maori Party.

                  But you know, don’t let me put you off continuing to try and paint Hone as a Maori separatist and Maori Government break away activist.

                  Its worth thinking about.

                  No its not, its a waste of time.
                  • Samuel Hill …

                    1 May 2011 at 7:39 pm

                    Yes. And there are a host of parties who wish to close that gap.

                    Labour
                    New Zealand First
                    Greens
                    Mana

                    I have no doubt that if we are to have a left or center-left government after this election that these parties will have to work together. All of them. If one of these parties misses out, then that will be the end.

                    For the last five years, Labour have been stuck in a political quagmire. Labour can attack National and ACT economically, but lack any ability to distinguish themselves from the other parties on the left economically. Socially it would seem, there are few differences between the status-quo of National and Labour. This is one of the key reasons as to why the emerging key feature of this election is one of very basic re-distribution of resources, as opposed to the last election which was one of populist and media antipathy towards the Labour, the Greens and New Zealand First. Phil Goff will have a tough time gaining more votes than Helen Clark. The crazy thing for the left is that Phil Goff can not move to the right, and can basically only attack the government. This is basically the same strategy National had at the last election, the difference being this is National’s first election as government, not their third – and there is little apathy towards them currently. Any moves by Labour to the left with a more socialist approach will see Goff mocked for his lack of political conviction. He was not only part of the last Labour government, but was a part of the neo-liberal Labour regime in the 1980s. Phil Goff is probably the easiest target for the National Party to attack, and when Goff’s best political strategy is as simple as ‘stop asset sales’ and a negative campaign to attack John Key – I think Labour are in serious trouble. The politically informed members of the electorate are begging for alternative ideas.

                    One particularly alternative party is of course the Green Party, who still act as the conscience of New Zealand politics. They may be apparently lacking in business sense and are ultra-liberal socially, but their stand for human rights and the environment is admirable to many. However, most people understand that it requires more than a heart to run a government, and even with an excellent campaign and a big gain in votes, the Greens will not likely gain more than 10% of the vote. They are a party which has a strong message, and one whose brand is unique from the other parties. Whilst they will always clash with the parties of the right, it would be wise for other parties from the left to think very carefully about how they position themselves to the Greens. It will require support from the Greens to form a government without National. It is an interesting point to examine that the Greens are the only smaller party that manges to be re-elected without winning an electorate. Mana, Labour and New Zealand First could all gain votes from the Greens if they can build some kind of trust with voters, and offer some progressive environment policy. Without a secure electorate seat, the Greens could one day miss out on parliament completely – just as New Zealand First did in 2008.

                    The Mana Party sits at the far left of New Zealand Politics, they stand out from other parties in their preference to a planned economy and their calls for Māori independence. They are likely going to gain some traction, however their call for a by-election is a political risk. They will be targeted by many for inefficient use of tax-payers money – $500,000 apparently will be needed for the by-election. However with nothing really happening politically at the moment this is the story of the moment. I would think based on history and their views on the Maori seats that National and New Zealand First are unlikely to stand, however ACT despite their views, ironically did stand in Te Tai Tokerau in the last election. The by-election will suck funding from the Maori Party, the Greens and Labour who will all likely stand candidates. However, being involved in a campaign prior to the General Election could also strengthen these parties networks in Te Tai Tokerau, raising political awareness for their parties in the region, and potentially throughout the rest of New Zealand. Harawira should win this seat, and the ramifications for Maori electorates in New Zealand could be massive. Mana will be competing with the Maori Party, the Greens, New Zealand First and Labour for votes, and it may result in a truly passionate left-wing party, the danger for this party however, is alienating voters through their calls for Tino Rangatiratanga.

                    The one party that I believe is positioning itself as a real alternative to the status-quo is New Zealand First. Winston Peters was vilified by politicians and the media in the last election, and he himself was drawn into a damaging battle to defend New Zealand First’s electoral financing. New Zealand First was later proved innocent on all counts, but the New Zealand First campaign was heavily demoralised with Peters losing his Tauranga seat to National, and the party vote falling to slightly over 4%. With New Zealand First out of parliament, the alternatives on offer to the government look very incapable, and Labour and the Greens have lacked the charisma or powerful message to encourage support from the public. Winston Peters stand against elites, perks and corruption has been sorely missed. The opposition parties look decidedly weak when it comes to debating, and John Key’s honeymoon has really not ended yet. It has been a pathetic two and a half years of National leadership, yet the media are still obsessed with Key’s personable style, refusing to challenge him on National’s policies. The almost 4/100 who gave their party vote to New Zealand First at the last election and fail to be represented in parliament today, will need to be raised to 5/100 if they are are to be elected to parliament this year.
                    • Carol …

                      1 May 2011 at 7:59 pm

                      People keep saying Goff was part of the neoliberal RogerNomics government as though that’s where he started. This was looked at on The Nation on TV3 this weekend, and the story is not quite like that. He actually started out as a more radical leftie in his younger days.

                      They showed Goff as a young activist when he was critical of corporate bludgers etc. He was quizzed quite extensively by Plunkett about his role in the Lange government. Really, Goff was from a working class background, was first an activist for workers and the working class, then got into parliamentary politics when the neoliberal rollercoaster got going. He now says flat tax etc was a mistake, and he was always for improving state housing, not selling them etc.

                      There’s way more to Goff than the way he’s painted by many as an out-and-out unreconstructed neoliberal. I wasn’t in NZ in the late 70s, 80s & 90s, so I have been taking people’s word for it that Goff originally was a neoliberal… not true at all.
                    • Samuel Hill …

                      1 May 2011 at 8:18 pm

                      Sure. Thats why he privatized our universities whilst he was the Education Minister. Phil Goff introduced and passed into law legislation which opened the door to international fee-paying students, fees which were needed to run our universities as companies. Thats why he signed the Free Trade Agreement with China while he was the Trade Minister in 2008.

                      Actions from Goff which favour profits over jobs? Yes I think so, don’t you?

                      Phil Goff has never been a politician of conviction. He has followed the moves of the most powerful members in order to survive. First Douglas, and then Clark. Now that he is the leader he may be finally expressing his true beliefs.
                    • Jasper …

                      1 May 2011 at 9:29 pm

                      You’ll find it was actually David Caygill that introduced the beginnings of the absurdity that was student loans.
    • Rich 12.2

      1 May 2011 at 4:37 pm

      What if:

      National 57 seats
      ACT lost Epsom and gone
      Dunne lost Ohairu and gone
      Maori Party 2 seats
      Labour 49 seats
      Greens 8 seats
      Mana 4 seats

      What does Goff do? Form a government with Mana and the Greens, or allow National/Maori to form a minority government by abstaining on confidence and supply?

      I’d reckon the latter, which is something for Labour supporters to think about.
13. george the awesome 13

    1 May 2011 at 4:55 pm

    i am totally agaisnt the maori party all they are for is business to make money
14. FromTheSidelines 14

    1 May 2011 at 5:18 pm

    I’ve lived a few decades, and met a lot of people from the North to the South of NZ.
    I still can’t get my head around anyone thinking that one party could represent all Maori in Parliament.
    Being from the genetic pool of one ethnicity or two or three, is only ONE aspect of a person.
    Their political bent is also only one aspect.

    Add in age, sex (male or female) sexual orientation, education, experience, social standing, work habits (industrious or lazy), health, career aspirations, self esteem, family or not, ……………….. I’m sure you could think of a lot more factors that influence who a person would believe could represent them best.
15. higherstandard 15

    1 May 2011 at 5:24 pm

    As extremist seems to be le mot du jour I’m interested in getting peoples views on what about ACT and/or the Mana party see as their extremist policies.
16. Descendant Of Smith 16

    1 May 2011 at 5:40 pm

    I’m still waiting for Labour to release it’s policies – unless they reverse the tax cuts for those of us earning a decent income, add some additional taxation to increase the take from speculation and trusts (trusts should have the same rate as normal income – just lift it) increase benefit rates by at least the twenty dollars per week taken in the 80’s , increase the minimum wage – both of which will put money into every local economy in the country and have a clear commitment to job creation by keeping government work in NZ and where practical in local communities (tendering everything out just favours big business over small local businesses) they are not likely to get my vote.

    I’d much rather vote very, very left to get movement on these sorts of things at some point in the future.

    Bonus points for universal family benefit, increased funding to public schools, income testing of NZS super from 70 years up – get it no questions asked for the first five years, have a register of all primary beneficiaries of all trusts, ensure drawings from trusts are counted as income for all government assistance and ensure that income from trusts at a minimum must be drawn on before seeking any state assistance – if a trust is set up to provide for your welfare it should do so..
    • Jasper 16.1

      1 May 2011 at 7:19 pm

      How about a 90% tax on every dollar earned on income that is over 25x the median wage? So once you earn $712,500 per year, every dollar over that is taxed at 90%.

      The last time we had such a phenomenal tax rate was in the 50/60’s when income inequality was low, the standard of living was high, crime was low, the PM knew the names of everyone on the dole, education standards were high, and it was a golden era of prosperity and success for all.

      Scrap trusts, they are non producing entities that offer little benefit to the country. People were fine without trusts before the 1960’s when they came into being (and punishingly high tax rates started getting lowered)
      • neoleftie 16.1.1

        1 May 2011 at 8:09 pm

        How about bring the average income up a tad and take out the true extreme outliers.
        I have no trouble accepting that some necessary professional person is due by their skill alone a hefty salary. What i have trouble understanding is extreme wealth being generated by the blood and sweat of the masses for the very few elites.
        Surely time for productive SOE to be unleashed and given the necessary regulation to be able to expand.
        • Deadly_NZ 16.1.1.1

          1 May 2011 at 10:55 pm

          Also to repeal any and all trade agreement signed in secret.
          To Reverse any benefit to Telecom, and to remove the ridiculous 10 year holiday. Actually no Fuck it just Nationalise Telecom using security as an excuse.
          Invest in Alternative transport. Get rid of Joyces follies. Get rid of the Car mentality, ( I live in Levin and I HAVE to have a car to get anywhere Especially PN hospital.) Yes there are shuttles But my Partner is 8 mths pregnant (high risk) and we would like it to go to term, not hurried up by being stuffed into a van , on the lovely bumpy roads we have here.

          Sorry neoleftie you DO NOT want to increase the average wage that’s how Shonkey lies about the wage increases he uses the average. easiest way to shift an average bring in a bigger number. You have to bring up the mean wage the bucks that are paid out.

          I do agree that some of the salaries paid to the big boss at the top are obscene, and there’s no way you can do that job properly whilst being paid to be a director here and a board member there. and still find time to fiddle your tax and spend your money.

          Yep but is there still any SOE’s left that have not been gutted like a fish? and if the jobs are scarce here then all that talent is gone, lost to Aus, GB, and other countries
          • Draco T Bastard 16.1.1.1.1

            1 May 2011 at 11:57 pm

            Actually no Fuck it just Nationalise Telecom using security as an excuse.

            You’d have to nationalise all of the telcos to make it worthwhile. Of course, telecommunications should never have been deregulated as it’s a natural monopoly. The act of deregulation and sale of Telecom has cost us billions.

            and if the jobs are scarce here then all that talent is gone, lost to Aus, GB, and other countries

            We can start again, start to train people up to fill the roles that have been exported etc. More expensive than a continuance but it’s where we’re at unfortunately.
      • Colonial Viper 16.1.2

        1 May 2011 at 8:26 pm

        How about a 90% tax on every dollar earned on income that is over 25x the median wage? So once you earn $712,500 per year, every dollar over that is taxed at 90%.

        Music to my ears

        And if the Corporate Captains want to be paid more…they can figure out how to increase the median wage 🙂

        PS the median wage is closer to $40K pa, the median income (including beneficiaries etc) is around $28K p.a.
        • higherstandard 16.1.2.1

          1 May 2011 at 8:34 pm

          I’m still waiting to hear what people think are extreme within the ACT or Mana party policies.

          The ‘extremist’ tag seems to be the new capitalist/socialist/communist tag that is being thrown around this year…… unless everyone’s going to get on the bandwagon with Hone’s Godwin absurdity this morning and people are going to compare each other to historical bogeymen this election.
          • felix 16.1.2.1.1

            1 May 2011 at 8:57 pm

            I get what you mean. It’s like with the major parties worshipping at the altar of the non-existent “centre”, everyone else by definition is “extreme”.
            • Colonial Viper 16.1.2.1.1.1

              1 May 2011 at 9:00 pm

              Centre = Mediocre
              Centre = Stagnation
              Centre = More of the Same
              • Blue …

                2 May 2011 at 4:14 pm

                Centre = where most of voting New Zealand lives. They don’t live on the fringes, they and their families despise extremes and extremists. Thats why they don’t vote for ACT or the Alliance or the Socialist freedom party (an oxymoronic title I know) , or whatever else is left on the left. A canny politician would realise that.
          • PeteG 16.1.2.1.2

            1 May 2011 at 9:02 pm

            Apparently, I’ve just been called an “extreme leftist” on Kiwiblog, first time since Redbaiter was banned. Extreme is a term used as stupidly as troll.
        • Jasper 16.1.2.2

          1 May 2011 at 9:24 pm

          Isn’t it the average (mean) wage that’s around 40K and the median wage around 28,500?

          I’m basing that 712,500 on a median wage of 28,500.
17. Jum 17

    1 May 2011 at 8:14 pm

    Penny Bright in her wee speech after the march in Queen Street today talked about the 500,000. That is small potatoes when considering the corrupt Pansy Wong interlude and all the other NAct corruptions, both politically and financially that the taxpayer has had to pay for, Samuel.

    Blame the media; we need to start turning up at the tv offices with placards showing they are a Pinochet run organisation. They must be because this current government is being run along the same lines.
18. Samuel Hill 18

    1 May 2011 at 8:28 pm

    The thing with all these small parties. Mana and Green Party are basically the same party. Somebody explain to me the difference in their policies? If Hone wins Te Tai Tokerau I would almost suggest that Mana and Green Party merge so that the votes go to one party, rather than the potential situation where both parties end up with 4.9% at the Genral Election, or something silly like that.

    The Maori Party are ideologically defunct. Pita Sharples said today that they would work with ACT. What kind of people are these guys? They are achieving nothing real for improving Maori lives in parliament.
    • Colonial Viper 18.1

      1 May 2011 at 8:35 pm

      Mana and the Greens are the same party? Maybe you should ask McCarten, Bradford, etc if they agree with you, and if not why not.

      I think you will find that the Greens cater a heck of a lot to middle and upper middle class environmentalists who have very little in common with worker socialism.
    • felix 18.2

      1 May 2011 at 9:36 pm

      Notice when asked what are the real tangible gains the Maori party has scored via being in govt, Sharples had to list fighting to raise the min wage to $15 and trying to get GST taken off food.

      Did get that flag on the bridge once a year though.
19. Samuel Hill 19

    1 May 2011 at 8:44 pm

    I’m sure that would be an interesting discussion to have. The fact is that with still 7 moths before the election, one of these parties is going to get damaged heavily. I can’t wait to see how the Leaders Debates play out. We should all petition to make sure that the leaders of all parties actually get a fair debate including the leaders of the two main parties this time.
    • ianmac 19.1

      1 May 2011 at 11:13 pm

      @ Samuel: “The fact is that with still 7 moths before the election.”
      You forgot to mention the 8 bumble bees Sam.
      • Samuel Hill 19.1.1

        1 May 2011 at 11:40 pm

        And a DonKey
20. William Watson 20

    1 May 2011 at 8:44 pm

    In terms of the differences between the various left parties, I was interested in the comment reported in the Herald from the Mana launch talking about nationalisation of various targets, but also of “housing”. Although the text from the Herald has been copied and pasted to various sites, I’ve never seen any real detail, or a source, for this comment. Is anyone aware of its source?
21. grumpy 21

    1 May 2011 at 9:57 pm

    Oh look, a party supported by MacCarten, Bradford, Harawira, Tanzcos, Minto…..

    How many votes will they get and from who….?

    Goodbye Greens….

    Unite must have plenty of cash, first MacCarten’s party, then Harawira’s.
    • Colonial Viper 21.1

      2 May 2011 at 12:02 am

      Unite’s probably got less cash than John Key’s EFTPOS account.
      • grumpy 21.1.1

        2 May 2011 at 9:23 am

        will have now….
22. NZ not for sale 22

    2 May 2011 at 2:31 am

    Who paid for the Brash coup? There is definitely a lot of money floating around… maybe those that want to buy the state assets that John and Don want to sell… are investing in Act… could pay off very well…

Links to post

1. Maori Party to stand against Hone « The Standard: posted on 9 May 2011 at 10:03 am

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