Nats push stupidest education plan ever

Written By: - Date published: 2:26 pm, August 23rd, 2016 - 218 comments
Categories: education, national, schools, useless, you couldn't make this shit up - Tags: , , ,

It’s not April 1st, so I’m forced to conclude that this is a genuine announcement:

Students to learn online from home instead of at school under major education reform

School-age students will be able to enrol in an accredited online learning provider instead of attending school, under new Government legislation.
…
The radical change will see any registered school, tertiary provider such as a polytechnic or an approved body corporate be able to apply to be a “community of online learning” (COOL).

An “approved corporate body”. Excellent.

Any student of compulsory schooling age will be able to enrol in a COOL – and that provider will determine whether students will need to physically attend for all or some of the school day.

Attendance requires infrastructure and staff, such a drag on profits. Easier to do it all online don’t you think?

Regulations will set out the way in which attendance in an online learning environment will be measured.

Yeah there were regulations for Charter schools too, but when push came to shove they turned out not to mean anything.

Online schooling models are used overseas. In the United States, there has been strong growth in the number of online charter schools, which are publicly-funded but privately-run. Some of the schools in the US providing online tuition do not have physical classrooms – students and teachers work from home on computers, communicating over email or a web platform.

More of this below.

Dr Schollmann’s impact statement did note that international evidence suggests access to online learning increased student movement between providers, which could harm learning. There is also a risk that schools could use the changes to “move on” troublesome students.

However, she noted that accreditation would be removed from providers who had poor results.

And once again – the evidence from Charter schools is that such regulations get ignored.

Online learning works well for a subset of students, but it doesn’t work well for the majority. From the American experience:

Stanford study shows that online charter school students are lagging

Students in the nation’s virtual K-12 charter schools — who take all of their classes via computer from home — learn significantly less on average than students at traditional public schools, a new study has found.

The online charter students lost an average of about 72 days of learning in reading and 180 days of learning in math during the course of a 180-day school year, the study found. In other words, when it comes to math, it’s as if the students did not attend school at all.

“There’s still some possibility that there’s positive learning, but it’s so statistically significantly different from the average, it is literally as if the kid did not go to school for an entire year,” said Margaret E. Raymond, project director at the Center for Research on Education Outcomes, or CREDO, at Stanford University.

Why must we always follow international examples of worst practice a decade or two after America?

The study looked at students attending full-time, publicly funded virtual schools in 17 states and the District of Columbia and annual academic performance between 2008 and 2013. … The average online charter student lagged in reading achievement behind their counterparts attending traditional schools in all states except for Wisconsin and Georgia, where their growth was “significantly stronger.”

When it comes to math, students attending online charters did worse in 14 states and performed the same as their counterparts at traditional schools in three states — Illinois, Michigan and Wisconsin.

“It may be good for some students, but the evidence suggests for the majority of online students, the online charters are not serving them very well when it comes to academic growth,” said James L. Woodworth of CREDO, which collaborated on the study with the Center on Reinventing Public Education at the University of Washington and Mathematica Policy Research.

For further reading see: Online-only schools show dismal performance. What can be done?. Oh – and this:

Online Public Schools Are a Disaster, Admits Billionaire, Charter School-Promoter Walton Family Foundation

For the second time in three months, the Walton Family Foundation—which has spent more than $1 billion to create a quarter of the nation’s 6,700 public charter schools—has announced that all online public school instruction, via cyber charter schools, is a colossal disaster for most K-12 students.

“If virtual charters were grouped together and ranked as a single school district, it would be the ninth largest in the country and among the worst performing,” co-wrote Walton’s Marc Sternberg and Marc Holley, respectively the foundation’s director of educational giving and its evaluation unit director, in a recent Education Week commentary. “Online education must be reimagined. Ignoring the problem—or worse, replicating failures—serves nobody.”

Last fall, the giant foundation, which has pledged to spend its second billion to expand charter public schools nationally between now and 2020, simultaneously released three detailed comissioned studies finding more than two-thirds of America’s 200,000 charter students receiving all of their instruction over the Internet were barely learning the basics.

“The majority of online charter students had far weaker academic growth in both math and reading compared to their traditional public school peers,” their experts’ press release said, after noting that kindergarten-through-high school students need to be in classrooms with live teachers, not occasional faces on computer screens. “To conceptualize this shortfall, it would equate to a student losing 72 days of learning in reading and 180 days of learning in math, based on a 180-day school year.”  …

And that’s academic criteria, never mind the social and physical development that real schools foster. Hands up those who want their kids to grow up interacting only with a keyboard?

Expanding this form of education beyond the bare minimum that is absolutely necessary (e.g. our well established Correspondence school) is the stupidest, most damaging idea I have ever heard from this stupid, damaging government.

John Oliver on this subject (thanks adam in comments):

218 comments on “Nats push stupidest education plan ever ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. adam 1
    23 August 2016 at 2:33 pm

    Anthony, can I suggest you put in the latest video from John Oliver, where he covers this exact issue. Well it is to do with charters schools, but then he goes onto the whole education on line, and why it has failed.

    • McFlock 1.1
      23 August 2016 at 3:02 pm

      The best line is almost the last: treating education as a market is guaranteed to fail, because children change more quickly than the market does.

    • Leftie 1.2
      23 August 2016 at 3:18 pm

      Heaps of +1’s for that Adam.

  3. TC 3
    23 August 2016 at 2:49 pm

    Stupidest plan so far…..fify

  4. Barfly 4
    23 August 2016 at 2:59 pm

    Hey Thickies!

    It’s Not about Education It’s about PROFIT!!!

  5. TheExtremist 5
    23 August 2016 at 3:00 pm

    Just playing devils advocte for a second (and only in the loosest possible sense) and will mention I did my entire degree online (outside of my exams) so this idea isn’t new and *could* work if rigourous standards were in place. Not that I think National can pull it off but it *can* work for remote students.

    • McFlock 5.1
      23 August 2016 at 3:07 pm

      I’d like to know what the correspondence school do these days. And the rules around homeschooling.

      But the worry isn’t whether it can work theoretically, it’s how often the system is going to fail students.

      • srylands 5.1.1
        23 August 2016 at 3:17 pm

        “I’d like to know what the correspondence school do these days.”
        _______________________

        It is a last resort for kids who get expelled from school, or who get pregnant.

      • TheExtremist 5.1.2
        23 August 2016 at 3:18 pm

        Agree.

      • The New Student 5.1.3
        23 August 2016 at 3:29 pm

        I took courses from the correspondence school, for subjects with less than five students. As my high school was small. Accounting and chemistry. Worked mostly unsupervised, was an interesting experience

      • red-blooded 5.1.4
        24 August 2016 at 7:45 am

        So, Extremist did his/her tertiary degree online… Golly, I wonder if there might be a few differences between an adult’s needs and those of a 5 (or 15) year old?

      • Molly 5.1.5
        26 August 2016 at 1:44 pm

        Te Kura (the correspondence school) is looking to lift it’s game, but the method of delivery and the need to ensure that the students are doing the work results in a lot of busywork and boredom. They have improved the online experience just recently and are looking to accept different methods of evidence of learning – alongside schools.

        If you are enrolled in Te Kura for more than two subjects you are an enrolled student. Two or less, with a student exemption and you are still home educated.

        Those with an exemption cannot access any Ministry of Education funded activities, which includes class excursions to places such as museums, galleries etc.

        If you wish to enrol your child in Te Kura while you have an exemption you pay the same fees as an overseas citizen. ie. each secondary subject will cost around $1,000. When you are 16, you no longer need the exemption and can enrol without charge in Te Kura. That is why many home educated students use Cambridge, or wait until they are 16 to begin NCEA Level 1.

        Online studies are often more successful if groups of students get together on a regular basis in real life. The attrition rate drops and the successful completion rate goes up.

        (I am amazed at the number of people who don’t critique quality of content and delivery with assessing computer delivered courses. That said, there are some stellar programmes out there)

  6. JanM 6
    23 August 2016 at 3:01 pm

    Oh ye gods – Labour are going to have so much to fix when they become the government!!

    • TheExtremist 6.1
      23 August 2016 at 3:03 pm

      Labour will just tinker round the edges, we need proper reforms!

    • srylands 6.2
      23 August 2016 at 3:15 pm

      You should not assume there will ever be another labour Government.

      But if there were (say from 2017) Labour would in fact “fix” very little. If you look across all areas of public policy, 98% of policy settings will remain unchanged. It will simply be some socialists in red shirts replacing some other socialists in blue shirts.

      • Leftie 6.2.1
        23 August 2016 at 3:26 pm

        Well, you would think that, wouldn’t you Srylands?

      • Lanthanide 6.2.2
        23 August 2016 at 5:05 pm

        Yes, National have screwed things up so badly with our national debt that it will never be paid off, preventing any future government from being able to “fix” much that is wrong in our country. A pity too, since the previous Labour government got us to a net-0 debt position.

        Interesting that you’d admit that.

        • Nic the NZer 6.2.2.1
          23 August 2016 at 5:59 pm

          Ffs. Any govt who believes thats an impediment or a constraint is unfit to be in office.

      • ropata 6.2.3
        23 August 2016 at 11:34 pm

        sly randian thinks the nats are just “socialists in blue shirts” 😂

        do not assume that your national party of tomfuckery will cling to power for much longer, your reptilian leader will soon slink back to his natural habitat and his hordes of zombie followers will soon die from lack of brains.

  7. vto 7
    23 August 2016 at 3:05 pm

    I suggest the politicians abandon Parliament and do it online first

  8. Leftie 8
    23 August 2016 at 3:16 pm

    Trust given $500,000 charter school contract without going to tender

    A trust with close ties to the Government – including former All Black and National Party supporter Michael Jones – was given a $500,000 charter school contract without going to tender.

    <a href="http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11680820

    • TC 8.1
      23 August 2016 at 4:08 pm

      Jones was potentially being courted to stand as a nat candidate awhile back.

      They sure know how to use taxpayer funds to further their political objectives.

    • Rodel 8.2
      23 August 2016 at 9:47 pm

      “A trust with close ties to the Government – including former All Black and National Party supporter Michael Jones – was given a $500,000 charter school contract without going to tender”… reported in the NZ Herald.

      Now that is criminally corrupt. Can’t the commerce commission, ombudsman, law society or somebody hold the government to account?

      It’s a moral, ethical but surely above all a legal issue.

  9. Tiger Mountain 9
    23 August 2016 at 3:54 pm

    our glorious leader tries to make another ACT fantasy come true–like Hyde’s undemocratic supercity CCOs

    the Epsom bumboy just happened to chip in on the press release too, saying the opposite of what will he will be working hard to achieve–online charter schools–“vouchers” can hardly be far away…

    parents and supporters need to organise together with the education unions on this one!

  10. Siobhan 10
    23 August 2016 at 4:33 pm

    National would get rid of education for the masses if they thought they could get away with it. But failing that, getting rid of teachers is a step in the right direction as far as John and Co. are concerned.

    Our local library is currently doing a sterling job of ditching books in favour of large numbers of computers which are fully booked up with Work and Income ‘clients’ trying to fulfil their Job Search requirements.

    Maybe under this plan the Librarians can spend their spare minutes also helping poor kids submit their homework sheets.

    • BM 10.1
      23 August 2016 at 7:39 pm

      Our local library is currently doing a sterling job of ditching books in favour of large numbers of computers which are fully booked up with Work and Income ‘clients’ trying to fulfil their Job Search requirements.

      I don’t think checking out face book or playing online flash game games really fulfils their Job Search requirements

      • Siobhan 10.1.1
        23 August 2016 at 7:54 pm

        That’s what they are actually doing at my library, out here in the provinces. They are sent there by W and H, it is a very sneaky way for a Govt dept to push their problems down the road. . There are so many we have had to introduce an hour limit, which is challenging given the lack of computer skills.

        • Scintilla 10.1.1.1
          24 August 2016 at 8:43 am

          Our local libraries out in the provinces are also playing host to kids who are Te Kura students, but either don’t have computer access at home or need to work with a wider range of resources (like books!!) and … just get out of the house. There has been a move by Te Kura to give teacher aide hours to some students, up to about 5 hours a week, so the T/A needs somewhere to tutor these students. If the responsibility of supporting students is going to fall on public libraries to “house them”, there needs to be acknowledgement/financial support to accommodate students so the needs of the usual library-loving citizens are not impinged upon.

          Like you say, the ball is being kicked down the road.

      • Wonderpup 10.1.2
        23 August 2016 at 7:57 pm

        If your comment about flash games didn’t show you are out of touch, your one about why and how people use library computers certainly does.

      • North 10.1.3
        23 August 2016 at 9:33 pm

        You’re a crashing paru old snob Bowel.

    • Stuart Munro 10.2
      23 August 2016 at 7:46 pm

      Some educators think a librarian approach has considerable potential. Not the Gnats of course, they’re more corrupt than the endoparasites in their political donors. But if the next govt want bang for their education buck they could do worse than funding more and more adventurous library services.

      • Scintilla 10.2.1
        24 August 2016 at 9:04 am

        I agree with that. It’s a pity librarians aren’t in charge of the internet, they’d have it catalogued and classified, ranked according to reliabilty and accessible in far more useful ways.
        It was glaringly obvious in high schools that information literacy – ie: how to search for and evaluate information and discriminate between info and knowledge was not well taught. Kids are extremely good at plagiarising and there is simply not enough time for teachers to check every assignment from every student. Experienced teachers develop an eye for plagiarism, usually because someone submits an essay using language way above their norm, or paragraphs straight out of a well-known text are presented as their own. Some schools still make students hand write assignments (exams still have to be hand-written) – so it has to be asked whether exams are now to be done online as well?

      • Molly 10.2.2
        26 August 2016 at 1:46 pm

        Agree. Libraries are a true egalitarian, free educational facility.

        • Stuart Munro 10.2.2.1
          26 August 2016 at 2:08 pm

          Imagine an education initiative built around the public library model, with a WEA-like attachment and makerspaces, focusing on product not assessment. Might see a digital No.8 mentality develop out of it…

  11. mac1 11
    23 August 2016 at 5:27 pm

    If you answer this question fully and honestly, you’ll know what a foolish idea this is.

    Why do we have schools?

    • In Vino 11.1
      23 August 2016 at 6:49 pm

      They are holding pens for the children of working parents. Obviously. Look at how many parents hate looking after their own kids during school holidays, and moan about it.
      This rather amuses me – if the kids work online totally with no school, do their unwilling parents get to host the horrible little beasts all year long? Ha! As a teacher, I await with interest the flood of feedback from fearful parents that these National muppets could well receive.
      Right wing politicians hate spending on education, and hate even more spending money on teachers. They would love this move towards doing away with both. But who will agree with them? (Apart from our usual trolls..)

      • whispering kate 11.1.1
        23 August 2016 at 8:28 pm

        My thoughts as well, these days with both parents working from dawn until dusk just trying to keep their head above water I can see what most parents are going to say about this idea. Also school holiday time comes and mum’s are run ragged and can’t wait for school to begin again. God this Government has to be the most assinine we have ever had. Also, if the kids are not supervised constantly they will end up gaming on their laptops and getting into all sorts of mayhem at the first opportunity unless they are abnormal geeks. It is patently obvious that National MP’s and obviously cabinet ministers have never had the opportunity and or misfortune to spend any length of time with their kids and have had nannies or whatever to care for their precious darlings. They are living on Planet Key and totally not in the real world. God why must we have to put up with their stupidity, its an insult to all of us.

  12. Nic the NZer 12
    23 August 2016 at 5:33 pm

    Maybe its a limitation in my understanding but doesn’t falling 180 days behind over a 180 day course literally mean the students (on average) learned nothing in mathematics?

    • Nic the NZer 12.1
      23 August 2016 at 5:55 pm

      Yep, seems to be exactly what it means. May as well not be teaching maths at that rate! What a massive handicap for the poor children if this ever gets implemented.

    • Muttonbird 12.2
      23 August 2016 at 6:04 pm

      Aye. Unfortunately the student enrolled in that course wouldn’t be able to do that subtraction.

  13. te reo putake 13
    23 August 2016 at 5:55 pm

    You know what I loved most about my school years? Hanging out with my schoolmates. I learned about friendship, social relationships and teamwork. You can get some of that online, but not the learning that comes from daily interaction with your peers.

    This idea? I give it an F.

    • the pigman 13.1
      23 August 2016 at 7:02 pm

      how quickly the lessons of youth are forgotten…

    • In Vino 13.2
      23 August 2016 at 7:13 pm

      True. There is a lot of that about schools. I had some students go onto Correspondence School back in the days when it was done by Audio Cassette. Although the material was well-presented, they almost universally hated learning from a cassette, and all but a few dropped out.
      The human connection matters hugely – but we can’t really understand it, which is why the merit pay thing is rejected by the vast majority of teachers who are doing the actual job as well as they can.
      TRP – you may even have connected on a small scale with one or two teachers? For me, a surprise is that one of my teachers I now respect was one of whom I was constantly critical at the time.
      I called schools holding pens (from back in the days when all parents were employed) but I also see them as a blunt but effective socialising mechanism for the students, as TRP says.

      • ropata 13.2.1
        23 August 2016 at 11:55 pm

        There is a lot more to education than just delivering a few disconnected concepts to a child’s brain. We learn by communicating verbally and using tone, and non verbal cues, and through various props with which teachers are adept. Also as TRP mentions the social aspect is probably the most important part of public ed. You learn real life skills from your peers, as they are the generation who will inherit the Earth, not the fuddy-duddy parents and teachers.

        A small 2D screen is not going to expand young minds. It will be a handicap

  14. Dan 14
    23 August 2016 at 6:01 pm

    The notion of global budgeting is the focus of teacher associations at the moment.
    I would ask everyone to go to Google scholar and look up references to global budgeting. It has been used widely in Asian medical circles to cut costs: cut the cost of expensive operations, and to block overuse of expensive medications.
    Anything to cut education expense!

    • In Vino 14.1
      23 August 2016 at 7:15 pm

      Yep. All the reforms starting with Tomorrow’s Schools have been cost-cutting dressed as a brighter future.

      • ropata 14.1.1
        24 August 2016 at 12:01 am

        and pushing responsibility/blame onto the Board(s) of Trustees
        and filling up universities with rich foreign students rather than poor kiwis

  15. Scintilla 15
    23 August 2016 at 6:08 pm

    So, any registered school will be able to be “COOL” – I’m picking that will be a rubber stamp exercise for them, just fill out the paperwork. High schools will love this, especially at years 12 and 13, where half the students are filling in time, there to play sport or not allowed to leave by parents. Those students will be directed into online learning, preferably at home, where they can’t waste everybody else’s time being disruptive.
    I wonder if there will be funding for schools to provide purpose-built “COOL” rooms with computers supplied or will students have to supply their own? Big, big rooms that will fit lots of students and staffed by teacher aides, whose job will be to “manage” and motivate students, and one registered teacher to supervise (currently there has to be a registered teacher in the classroom). That would actually be a win for the able, motivated students who want to get on with it and their teachers. I wonder, though, who will be held responsible for the failure of the online students – computers are not magical devices that suddenly turn unmotivated learners into achievers.

    • In Vino 15.1
      23 August 2016 at 7:27 pm

      I think their ultimate aim goes far lower than yrs 12 and 13. The requirement for a qualified teacher will go too, if these people get their way. Lots of teacher aids who work for next to nothing, because they know that what they are doing is so worthwhile. Just how our mercenary, profit-gouging masters love it.

      • Scintilla 15.1.1
        23 August 2016 at 8:28 pm

        yes, I agree re: their ultimate aim. In the US corporate education providers (from memory Pearson are the big ones) get to write the content, all the lesson and unit plans and provide the online resources to supplement those, as well as writing the exams and assessments. They also mark the exams and assessments. So what does a teacher do? Sweet FA. They get to motivate and manage learners, hence really big classroom/lecture halls where all the students are hooked up online and teachers become “technicians” who are of course paid much less as they no longer write their own lesson plans/subject content, nor do they assess them.

        So teachers/teacher aides are just left with the really shitty part of the job – behaviour management, motivation and, I’m betting, the accountability when students fail.

    • NZJester 15.2
      23 August 2016 at 9:55 pm

      You will see charter schools paying for computers and internet connection in homes that will be used 99% of the time for playing games or doing social media. I have seen kids circumvent filters put in place to block possible objectional material or ilegal download sites by them using VPN type connections to tunnel past school filters and sharing Admin passwords they are not meant to know to install unapproved software on their school-owned computers.

      • In Vino 15.2.1
        23 August 2016 at 10:11 pm

        Oh yes – the brighter miscreants easily get past schools’ attempts to block certain sites.

        The less willing need constant surveillance to keep them from going to Youtube, etc. Can we really believe that by themselves somewhere they will be magically compelled to become angels?

        • NZJester 15.2.1.1
          24 August 2016 at 2:54 am

          They don’t need to be that bright to get past the blocks as they tend to know at least one friend or relative that will show them how to do it or do it for them.

      • Michelle 15.2.2
        24 August 2016 at 12:24 pm

        you forgot to say and watching blue movies or pawn cause that’s what they will do if they aren’t supervised

        • NZJester 15.2.2.1
          24 August 2016 at 5:44 pm

          Blue movies or Porn comes under the “objectionable material” category that covers such things such as sex, horror, crime, cruelty and violence.
          I only just noticed my autocorrect had previously auto corrected it to the wrong word of ‘objectional’ instead of ‘objectionable’

  16. dv 16
    23 August 2016 at 6:14 pm

    So how are two parents going to work then?
    What about the socialisation aspect of school?

    • Scintilla 16.1
      23 August 2016 at 8:19 pm

      It’s illegal to leave kids home alone under 14yrs, after that ….

      • NZJester 16.1.1
        23 August 2016 at 10:37 pm

        As they want to push this onto kids of all ages it will mean they will be able to possibly hide unemployment also with this as well by moving a lot of unemployed parents off of the unemployment benefit as they are forced to stay home and look after their under 14s doing online school-work.
        Not to mention the extra bonus of hiding some kids in poverty not coming to school with lunches.
        For the National Party it is a Win Win Win on their one armed bandit of a political policy generation machine.

  17. b waghorn 17
    23 August 2016 at 6:29 pm

    So looking for a job online isn’t good enough but it’s ok for schooling , ?

  18. Macro 18
    23 August 2016 at 6:54 pm

    Just how bizarre can one get? Govt to cut funding for special needs in school.

    But then – John has to have his tax cuts for the rich or they won’t vote him back in will they!

    • Rodel 18.1
      23 August 2016 at 10:09 pm

      Transferring funds from school age kids to early childhood support is the latest idea of Parata and the nats who seem to think that early intervention is going to fix these kids with permanent issues like autism, cerebral palsy, aphasia, deafness etc and other physical disabilities so that they’ll all be cured when they reach school age. That’s dumb.
      Sure early intervention helps to get a better start but most of these students need the support throughout their school life. …up to and beyond leaving age.
      The dull-wittedness of nationals and the “gerrymanderd” act MP in this regard astounds me.

    • maninthemiddle 18.2
      24 August 2016 at 5:32 pm

      If you had bothered to read beyond the opposition mantra, you would have discovered that there is not cut at all. The funds are being shifted from older children to younger children. From the ambulance to the fence.

      • Macro 18.2.1
        24 August 2016 at 7:00 pm

        If you bothered to get your nose out from between JK’s cheeks for just one second you would realise that taking funding from the primary and secondary sectors and giving it to preschool is precisely a cut in funding for those sectors.

        • maninthemiddle 18.2.1.1
          24 August 2016 at 9:21 pm

          You cite read “Govt to cut funding for special needs in school.” That is a lie. There is no cut.

          • Macro 18.2.1.1.1
            24 August 2016 at 9:48 pm

            matey – pre-schools are not schools that’s why they are called pre– school. So yes! The govt is cutting their funding and FYI kids with special needs don’t all magically loose their need for learning support on obtaining 5 or even 7 years of age!

            • maninthemiddle 18.2.1.1.1.1
              25 August 2016 at 10:44 am

              You clearly know nothing of the education sector. What you call ‘pre-school’ is now referred to as the Early Childhood Education Sector. Teachers are qualified and registered. ECE’s have Boards of Trustees (I am on one). ECE’s are schools. You are a liar.

              • Macro …
                25 August 2016 at 1:06 pm

                “You clearly know nothing of the education sector”

                You clearly don’t know who you are taking too.

                So you are on a Board. wooopppeeee!!

                My experience of Board members is that they have NFI about education – and you sir are living proof.

                • maninthemiddle …
                  25 August 2016 at 1:10 pm

                  Your use of the expression ‘pre-school’ shows you have zero understanding of the sector. Trying to divorce that entire sector from the ‘school’ sector confirmed it.

                  • Macro …
                    25 August 2016 at 4:31 pm

                    🙄

                  • In Vino …
                    25 August 2016 at 10:08 pm

                    Changing a name is cheating. The first rule of logic is that words must not have their meanings changed in mid-argument. Suddenly calling pre-school ‘Early Childhood’ and classifying it as school instead of not-school is simply cheating and fudging the issue. That is what you did above, Manininamuddle.
                    Regardless of this, if you reduce the money that Primary Schools are getting to give some of it to ‘Early Education’ which had no funding beforehand, the inescapable fact remains – you are reducing – ie, cutting – funding to Primary Schools.

                    It is you the liar, Maninamuddle.

                    • maninthemiddle …
                      26 August 2016 at 9:54 am

                      “Changing a name is cheating.”

                      Nope. And the name didn’t change ‘suddenly’. The process of the ‘pre-school’ sector moving to being Early Childhood Education Centres began 20 years ago, and has been supported by successive governments. If Macro had the slightest idea about education he would have known that.

                      “if you reduce the money that Primary Schools are getting to give some of it to ‘Early Education’ which had no funding beforehand, the inescapable fact remains – you are reducing – ie, cutting – funding to Primary Schools.”

                      A subtle and dishonest word switch. Macro didn’t differentiate between primary and pre-primary schools. He certainly didn’t say funding was being reduced to ‘primary schools’.

                      The approach the government is taking is entirely sensible, moving the funding from the bottom of the cliff to the top.

                    • In Vino …
                      26 August 2016 at 8:07 pm

                      Bollocks. Macro clearly stated ‘Pre-school is not school’. School has always been started at 5 yrs old in NZ. Kindergarten was always different from ‘school’. Calling it ‘Early Education’ instead changes nothing. What you now think you are so clever for calling ‘Early Education’ never received any special need funding up till this new plan – and it will receive future funding at the expense of funding to both primary and secondary schools because the money will be taken off them to start the new funding in this ‘Early Education Sector’. You cannot fudge the truth with name-changes, Maninamuddle, and to accuse me of doing so is a real laugh. Fact is that this measure reduces ie cuts funding to primary and secondary sectors to start funding in a sector that previously was not seen as needing it.
                      An honest Government that valued Education would maintain current underfunding for Primary and Secondary, and put additional, new funding into ‘Early Ed.’. Not increase the underfunding for Primary and Secondary Sectors.
                      (I know you won’t like that ‘underfunding’ word, but if you know as much as you claim to about Education, you will admit that it is correct.)

  19. In Vino 19
    23 August 2016 at 7:30 pm

    Wow! No trolls so far! Even they must be scratching their heads.
    Sorry – forgot Srylands at 6.2. But he never answered back.

    • In Vino 19.1
      23 August 2016 at 10:12 pm

      A few have sneaked in since. but still very few.

      • jcuknz 19.1.1
        24 August 2016 at 9:15 am

        It is such a silly biased thread what is the purpose part from this effort to add some sense 🙂

        • jcuknz 19.1.1.1
          24 August 2016 at 4:43 pm

          It is pointless suggesting that answers are needed NOW because housing takes time to build
          What is needed NOW is a decision to do something that in 1,2,5 years time will bring fruit. Several small choices which together will help bring a solution in time … like instead of ‘maybe’ for containers but small start to see if it is viable.

          Then this crazy idea that people need to own houses … renting suits many when rents are reasonable and stable …with long term agreements to provide certainty … works for business, why not homes?

          Then since we do not have enough builders why not provide assistance for the DIY home-builder.

          I am sure some of the inertia on the part of Government is the negative thinking demonstrated on this thread which will love to jump in and slag any scheme which doesn’t work 150%.

          We need a concept of “give it a try” rather than “It will never work” and I suspect it is the fraidy-cat public servants who advise ministers which should take a lot of the blame for the stagnation we currently suffer from.

    • In Vino 19.2
      25 August 2016 at 10:10 pm

      Revisiting 2 days later, I withdraw comment 19. But the quality of trolls is disappointing…

      • jcuknz 19.2.1
        26 August 2016 at 9:25 am

        I agree that the usual level of contributions is higher that come from the ‘left’ which makes this site much more interesting than the revamped KB which is dreadful.

  20. NZJester 20
    23 August 2016 at 9:42 pm

    The cost of buying all those real buildings for the charter schools got to much for the National party cronies feeding trough budget, that people started to notice, so they decided on ways to get charter schools going without the need for buildings.
    Going online gives charter schools the ability to hide the real attendance records and go NZ wide instead of praying on the vulnerable children in just a smaller number of school districts. I could also see them having virtual classrooms of 100s of kids looked after by a single teacher. It is also so much easier for kids to cheat on their schoolwork on a computer with no teacher to see what they are actually doing.
    The records might show they are doing better on their schoolwork than offline schools, while in reality it might be the kids are just learning how to Google answers better and not really learning that much at all.

    • Chooky 20.1
      24 August 2016 at 11:27 am

      Charter Schools in the USA are an abject failure…unqualified ‘teachers’, religious indoctrination, right wing ideology …big taxpayer bucks for private enterprise cheats

      I know one angry USA ex student from a wealthy family who attended a USA Charter School and he was totally scathing…theories of evolution were not taught ….science teaching was a joke…and he despised his teachers who were not trained and in many cases not educated to a high standard themselves

      • NZJester 20.1.1
        24 August 2016 at 5:32 pm

        That is what seems to be slowly happening with charter schools here. At one point Destiny Church tried to turn their failing school into a Charter School. I think luckily though they got turned down.
        I doubt they would have been teaching Evolution as part of their school curriculum.
        Even before they launched charter schools here the data coming out of the US is that Charter schools where a failed experiment dreamed up by right wingers with no education backgrounds. But National pushed ahead with it in order to keep their pet party Act on side and because it fit well with their privatisation model of slowly transferring everything public they can into private hands, to shift lots of public cash into private pockets.

      • maninthemiddle 20.1.2
        24 August 2016 at 5:38 pm

        Charter Schools have been anything but an abject failure. There are many resources available that demonstrate their successes, and just like state schools, some do well, others not as much. The real issue is that they have provided parents with choice. In NZ, Partnership Schools have a different operating model, but offer many of the same advantages. Thus far the vast majority seem to be very successful. But if you don’t like them, don’t send your kids to one. Simple. Leave that choice to the parents.

        • NZJester 20.1.2.1
          24 August 2016 at 6:04 pm

          In the US charter schools ae being pushed as a way for corporations to get past restrictions on signing contracts with public schools. They start their own charter schools and sign them up on contracts to buy expensive equipment that the corporations themselves make. Like discussed in this The Young Turks video from March 2013.
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMioWnzh08M
          Or they find ways to leech more money off the kids by finding ways to fine the kids for tiny little rule infractions like discussed in this video from the Young Turks from February 2012

          • maninthemiddle 20.1.2.1.1
            24 August 2016 at 9:07 pm

            And if so (and something a bit more independent than ‘Young Turks’, who are opposed to CS’s by reason of religious bigotry, would be useful), parents can move the kids. Simple.

            Meanwhile…

            http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2015/06/19/whats-working-and-whats-not-with-charter-schools
            “Forty-three percent of urban charter schools do better than other schools in math and only 24 percent do worse. And charter schools seem to disproportionately benefit minority students and low-income students.”
            (You’ll find that article very balanced, unlike the Young Turks).

            “Kids at Success Academy are doing much better than comparable public schools at math and reading. This is despite the fact that 76 percent of students are less advantaged and about 94 percent are minorities. All of this is occurring in charter schools that have fewer resources, as much as $3,000-4,000 less per child per year, than their public school counterparts.”
            https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brookings-now/2015/09/10/examining-the-success-of-success-academy-charter-schools/

            There is literally mountains of material out there about the success and failures of Charter Schools. That’s the advantage we have here, to take the best of, and leave out the worst of, the CS experiences.

            • Macro 20.1.2.1.1.1
              24 August 2016 at 9:38 pm

              Many Charter Systems Are Mired in Fraud

              According to Integrity in Education, $100 million (ballooning in the past year to $200 million) in taxpayer money was lost, misused, or wasted in just 15 of the 42 states that have charter schools. The abuses are well documented. The report states: “Charter operators have used school funds illegally to buy personal luxuries for themselves, support their other businesses, and more.”

              Mounds of evidence reveal the fraud in states around the country: Schoolchildren defrauded in Pennsylvania; “out-of-control” charters in Michigan and Florida; rampant misspending in Ohio; bribes and kickbacks, also in Ohio; revenues directed to a for-profit company in Buffalo, NY; subpoenas for mismanaged charters in Connecticut.

              In California alone, $100 million in fraud losses are expected in 2015. The California Charter Schools Association noted in response that the “charter school sector, authorizers and legislators have come together to put into place real solutions.” The solutions were not cited.

              http://www.commondreams.org/views/2015/07/06/growing-evidence-charter-schools-are-failing

              • maninthemiddle …
                25 August 2016 at 10:37 am

                “In early 2015 Stanford University’s updated CREDO Report concluded that “urban charter schools in the aggregate provide significantly higher levels of annual growth in both math and reading compared to their TPS peers.” ”

                Your source. They’d have done their integrity a favour stopping there.

                • Macro …
                  25 August 2016 at 12:11 pm

                  “CREDO” – well chosen acronym!

                  “credo” – “a statement of the beliefs or aims which guide someone’s actions:”

                  Just because a report comes from a University – doesn’t make it an objective analysis. Follow the money.

                  • maninthemiddle …
                    25 August 2016 at 12:32 pm

                    What exactly are your concerns about CREDO? Or the other sources? And when you say ‘follow the money’, are you referring the NZEI opposition to Partnership Schools because they see them as a threat to their cosy monopoly?

                    BTW if you had bothered to look it up, CREDO stands for the Centre for Research on Education Outcomes. Their study contains both praise and criticism of the progress of Charter Schools, just the sort of material that would be informative if someone really wanted to know how and whether they worked.

                    • Macro …
                      25 August 2016 at 12:58 pm

                      🙄
                      I know what it stands for! Jezz! And there are just as many pretentious sounding “research” centres as you can point a stick at that all receive their funding from vested interested parties.

                      Do you have the same hatred towards Federated Farmers? The Employers and Manfactures Association? The NZ Initiative? The Royal College of Surgeons? The Royal Society? Indeed all professional bodies?

                    • maninthemiddle …
                      25 August 2016 at 1:02 pm

                      “Do you have the same hatred towards Federated Farmers? The Employers and Manfactures Association? The NZ Initiative? The Royal College of Surgeons? The Royal Society? Indeed all professional bodies?”

                      I don’t have hatred towards any body. Teacher Unions are a strange breed though. They hate change, and hate anything that eats at their cosy monopoly.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      25 August 2016 at 1:13 pm

                      Fucking coward can’t even take personal responsibility for his own bile.

                    • maninthemiddle …
                      25 August 2016 at 1:17 pm

                      “Fucking coward can’t even take personal responsibility for his own bile.”

                      You must have some vested interest? I mean most NZ’ers have the same view of unions as I do. Indifference.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      25 August 2016 at 1:23 pm

                      Stop projecting your gutter ethics on to me, trash.

                    • maninthemiddle …
                      25 August 2016 at 1:35 pm

                      “Stop projecting your gutter ethics on to me, trash.”

                      Not projecting anything. Just observing.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      25 August 2016 at 1:52 pm

                      The only reason you’d ever stick up for anything is from self-interest. I am not you.

                    • maninthemiddle …
                      25 August 2016 at 7:34 pm

                      “The only reason you’d ever stick up for anything is from self-interest. I am not you.”

                      You have no idea what you’re talking about.

                    • Paul …
                      25 August 2016 at 7:37 pm

                      Any chance you could find somewhere else to expound your theories?
                      Whale oil, KiwiBlog and other like minded forums.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 20.1.2.2
          24 August 2016 at 7:35 pm

          After all. choice is much more important than results.

          Nope, only a moron could believe that.

          • maninthemiddle 20.1.2.2.1
            24 August 2016 at 9:13 pm

            With Partnership Schools you get both!! Wonderful, eh!

            • Macro 20.1.2.2.1.1
              24 August 2016 at 9:42 pm

              A Brookings report showed underperformance in Arizona’s charter schools. An In the Public Interest group found that an analyst for the District of Columbia “could not provide a single instance in which its strategy of transferring a low-performing school to a charter management organization had resulted in academic gains for the students.” The Minnesota Star Tribune reported that “Students in most Minnesota charter schools are failing to hit learning targets and are not achieving adequate academic growth.” Over 85 percent of Ohio’s charter students were in schools graded D or F in 2012–2013. In the much-heralded New Orleans charter experiment, the Investigative Fund found that “eight years after Hurricane Katrina…seventy-nine percent of RSD charters are still rated D or F by the Louisiana Department of Education.”

              http://www.commondreams.org/views/2015/07/06/growing-evidence-charter-schools-are-failing

              • maninthemiddle …
                25 August 2016 at 10:42 am

                “Charter schools continue to play a central role in education reform efforts across the United States. Charter school students now comprise more than four percent of the total public school population in the United States, a proportion that continues to grow every year. There are estimated to be over 6,000 charter schools serving about 2.3 million students in the 2012-2013 school year. This represents an 80 percent increase in the number of students enrolled in charter schools since CREDO released its first national report on charter school performance in 2009, Multiple Choice: Charter School Performance in 16 States.”

                http://credo.stanford.edu/documents/NCSS%202013%20Final%20Draft.pdf

                “Charters serving minority students in poverty, students in poverty and English language learners are posting stronger results both against their 2009 record and against their current TPS counterparts in closing the learning gap for these students.”

                “Nearly half the charter schools in our analysis have above average growth in both reading and math,
                which positions them to either already have high levels of attainment or on a course to reach it. “

            • One Anonymous Bloke 20.1.2.2.1.2
              25 August 2016 at 7:04 am

              Why do you tell so many lies?

  21. AmaKiwi 21
    23 August 2016 at 9:48 pm

    Am I the only one who thinks the problem is NOT online charter schools NOR Hekia Parata but the problem is our system of government where someone with no qualifications in education (Hekia) who never got a single vote from the public making her minister of education can make such sweeping decisions without the public being able to do anything about it?

    Does anyone besides me think the tragedy is that all the parties in parliament will talk about anything EXCEPT overhauling this pathetic system they pass off as “democracy”?

    • Stuart Munro 21.1
      23 August 2016 at 10:50 pm

      Not the only by any means. Our system is designed to be operated by semiprofessionals and conscientious amateurs – not gibbering idiots, compulsive liars, and asset thieves.

      • ropata 21.1.1
        23 August 2016 at 11:00 pm

        The Nats are simply enacting the will of their constituents, who I am increasingly thinking are complicit in the asset thefts and lies and ripping off the rest of NZ.

        We are becoming a nation of greedy arseholes who give zero shits about anyone else. Can’t explain the popularity of FJK and his cronies any other way…

        Or maybe kiwis really are thick as two short planks and we deserve to go extinct.

        • Pat 21.1.1.1
          23 August 2016 at 11:09 pm

          when you add up all the recent appealing cock ups and incompetence by this administration perhaps everyone is simply overwhelmed by it all?….. you can only process so much incompetence at one time.

        • Stuart Munro 21.1.1.2
          23 August 2016 at 11:11 pm

          I think the bulk of Gnat constituents are also deceived – hence NZF’s rise where ever any of the gilt is flaking off. The Germans did not deserve Hitler, nor the Cambodians Pol Pot. Even the Gnat supporters deserve better than this.

          • ropata 21.1.1.2.1
            23 August 2016 at 11:17 pm

            You’re probably right (thinking of Trump’s popularity also) but it’s frustrating as hell, the amount of crap these Tory pricks get away with, and nobody calls them on it.

            The Nat PR machine is pretty damn good but must be struggling to keep the positive messages going in the face of numerous slow motion train wrecks

    • Rodel 21.2
      25 August 2016 at 9:52 am

      AmaKiwi -Well put!
      ‘no qualifications in education-never got a single vote from the public -sweeping decisions without the public being able to do anything about it.’

      and No. You are certainly not the only one but what annoys me is the influence that the act party with their one rigged MP (the now discredited Banks) was able to wield over the Key/Parata/English coterie in establishing charter schools without telling the voters. That was plain dishonesty.

  22. Anne 22
    23 August 2016 at 9:58 pm

    Hekia Parata suffers from The Dunning Kruger Effect

    But she’s not the only one in this Govt.

    • ropata 22.1
      23 August 2016 at 10:26 pm

      Parata’s ignorance is also based on self interest, and her government’s nasty ideology, so she is worse than incompetent, she is intentionally attacking education.

      The Nats better be careful here, education policy can affect their supporters kids too. Obviously they don’t mind shafting the children of the poor though.

      • AmaKiwi 22.1.1
        23 August 2016 at 10:40 pm

        As Ann points out, it’s probably Dunning Kruger Effect.

        Unfortunately the qualities for getting elected have little in common with the qualities needed to govern effectively.

        Our elections are popularity contests, not policy debates. For policy debates you need referendums.

        • ropata 22.1.1.1
          23 August 2016 at 11:12 pm

          You are too kind. D-K effect arises from utter incompetence. But Parata has been around the traps long enough now, I can’t believe she is that dense.

          She is deliberately fucking around with education because the Nats want to smash the union, their ideology and their corporate backers demand it.

          It’s malice, not Dunning-Kruger

          • Anne 22.1.1.1.1
            24 August 2016 at 11:52 am

            It’s both.
            She may have been around for a while and knows the ropes, but she’s also very limited in her cognitive abilities.

  23. NZJester 23
    23 August 2016 at 10:14 pm

    I do wonder if this is actually not their stupidest Education plan being looked at right now. I think this rates up there in the top 5 and maybe at #2 but I don’t think it is #1.
    The changes to the so-called “Special Needs Funding” being made might be even worse. It sounds like they going to fund more areas that really should have their own budgets all from the single budget that was previously only for special needs.
    They aparntly are not going to increae the budget but change how and where it is spent so a lot of those needing special needs will miss out as the budet has to fund more things than just the current special education and is spread way to thin to properly fund everything it should.

    • dv 23.1
      24 August 2016 at 8:41 am

      Re special need funding

      Apparently Parata wants to test the effectiveness by using Nat Standards and NCEA

  24. ropata 24
    23 August 2016 at 10:20 pm

    Some fun to be had on Twitter at Hooton’s expense, after his latest unhinged brainfart

    The govt wants to let children enrol in online schools, but education groups say that's a bad idea. @RNZeducation https://t.co/CGtqt3Bfjo— Checkpoint (@CheckpointRNZ) August 23, 2016

    The troll… Hoots is a pro at this

    They are not "education groups". They are militant extreme-left unions. https://t.co/1rrmx3X8EN— Matthew Hooton (@MatthewHootonNZ) August 23, 2016

    The fun begins…

    tomorrow, in hootlandia, teacher unions instruct the army to seize all two story houses in remuera https://t.co/eLDYPM4sIu— Morgan Godfery (@MorganGodfery) August 23, 2016

    Read the rest from @MorganGodfery, it’s gold 😂

  25. Philj 25
    23 August 2016 at 10:45 pm

    Where on earth did they get this idea from ? Clearly there is some activity behind the scenes. Certainly some radical policy ideas being promulgated currently. Makes one suspicious. Reminiscent of Professor Hattie and the class size debacle from which the Government/Hekia had to back down.

    • Rodel 25.1
      23 August 2016 at 11:44 pm

      I commented on this issue sometime last year or before… Can’t remember when..after a discussion with a person who had left the computing department of a tertiary institute to join a private company which had a contract with the government and Ministry of Education to research ways of introducing on line teaching in schools.
      He said the future idea was to have one teacher administering to extra large classes of maybe 50 or more children.
      He also said (with a laugh) that teachers (and parents) were deliberately kept unaware that this was being planned and would be shocked when they learned about it.When questioned about the educational aspect and the ethics he just didn’t understand.

      At that stage I heard of students in the same tertiary institute who complained that in some courses, after paying big course fees, they were sat in front of computers and seldom had personal interaction with their tutors.

      • ropata 25.1.1
        24 August 2016 at 12:06 am

        Sounds not much has changed in tertiary ed then. I can’t count the number of incoherent lecturers (with illegible writing) and assignments dumped on us with no reference to the text or the lectures. And tutors/lecturers available only for a few minutes per week… they basically hated undergrads.

        These are not trained teachers, they consider themselves the thought leaders of society and above such mundane crap

  26. Philj 26
    23 August 2016 at 11:06 pm

    Mind you. This could be a brilliant scheme to secure funds from overseas students. They pay big bucks for a virtual education and funds Scots college or maybe Manger East. Lol.

    • ropata 26.1
      23 August 2016 at 11:25 pm

      Don’t laugh, the Nats do have a policy goal for the Dept of Ed. to earn $5 billion pa from overseas students by 2025.

      Aspirations for the future of NZ right there. Not actually educating people, but sucking money off them is the new goal.

  27. Paul 27
    24 August 2016 at 6:23 am

    A country we should model our education system on.

  28. Paul Campbell 28
    24 August 2016 at 8:00 am

    I came here to point out this week’s John Oliver …. but it’s already here – skipo forward to 15:20 to get to his point about how bad online schools are

  29. whispering kate 29
    24 August 2016 at 8:28 am

    I think this might be the death knell for National, the long suffering public will finally see them for what they are. Their next big push will be on health and that will finish it for them. There is only so much stupidity the electorate can tolerate.

    • Puckish Rogue 29.1
      24 August 2016 at 8:34 am

      No it won’t, like anything its how they implement it. I don’t think its bad idea, in principle, for select set of circumstances but rolling it out in general would be

  30. millsy 30
    24 August 2016 at 8:46 am

    This is a essentially the removal of the Correpondence School’s ‘monopoly’ on distance learning.

    Its just all dressed up to sound like something else.

    That said, this proposal has merit in certain niche areas.

  31. Gabby 31
    24 August 2016 at 8:52 am

    They’ve given up on ever finding enough maths and science teachers.

  32. Pat 32
    24 August 2016 at 8:57 am

    As with everything this government does this is simply another (poorly) disguised path to reduce the cost of education (or anything) to the public purse and to hell with the results.

  33. Michelle 33
    24 August 2016 at 9:02 am

    It seems to me the pnats education plan to deal with the tail has failed so they introduced plan b which is a hands of education provided by an online learning service. We already have socially inept teenagers and young people who engage too much online and with mobiles etc We see people saying nasty things online that they wouldn’t say to a persons face so why foster and encourage this type of behavior. We are better than this ( nzers)
    Not having to go to school and mix with ones peers is also not good for young people growing up and learning the value of team work and social skills but this policy means( this group) will be out of sight out of mind and not the governments problem exactly what they want. And they ( the govt ) will claim there policy was successful for this group as they provided an alternative to charter schools. They will also say they are offering an opportunity for these students to have access to the latest technology by offering them online learning when I fact this is a last resort option for their childrens education. The pnats are slowly destroying the fabric of our public education system and stupid NZers are letting them do this.

  34. maninthemiddle 34
    24 August 2016 at 9:25 am

    On-line, remote and distance learning has been successfully educating children and adults in NZ and elsewhere for decades. There is also a ‘real world’ element to distance learning, with more and more people working remotely now and in the future.

    I doubt remote learning will be for everyone, but as an extension of choice, it is a sound idea, as are Partnership Schools (eg the results being delivered by SAMS v surrounding state schools).

    I suspect most opposition will come from supporters of teacher unions (who fear loss of influence). Regrettably, AR’s article is typical of the shallow analysis we are likely to have to endure.

    • millsy 34.1
      24 August 2016 at 9:32 am

      Partnership are vehicles for the delivery of religous intolerance. I bet you SAMS has homophobia and creationism in its curriculum.

    • Michelle 34.2
      24 August 2016 at 12:32 pm

      Man in the middle wake up cant you see what is happening distance learning is our tory government distancing themselves from the responsibility of providing good quality public educational services. This cool policy will be a dumping ground for many of our Maori youth who Hekia said would be catered to under charter schools now we have a cost saving measure opedn up to corpoartes yet the panata havent sorted the last debacle wihte oarres and

    • Michelle 34.3
      24 August 2016 at 12:32 pm

      Man in the middle wake up cant you see what is happening distance learning is our tory government distancing themselves from the responsibility of providing good quality public educational services. This cool policy will be a dumping ground for many of our Maori youth who Hekia said would be catered for by way of introducing charter schools now we have a cost saving measure opened up to corporates to make money. Yet the pnats haven’t sorted the Tertiary private provider who owe us millions as they did not meet there contracts or there obligations re- student numbers to deliver private education but they still got millions of tax payers dollars. Sort this mess out first before they introduce another half baked policy.

      • maninthemiddle 34.3.1
        24 August 2016 at 1:27 pm

        Distance learning has been a reality of the education landscape in nz for decades.

        And for every example of a non-state provider who fails, I could give you at least one state provider who has had to be bailed out by the taxpayer.

        • Robert Guyton 34.3.1.1
          24 August 2016 at 5:45 pm

          “Distance learning has been a reality of the education landscape in nz for decades.”

          It has its place – already. Expanding the idea as a “sweeping change” is stoopid. (Google it).

          • maninthemiddle 34.3.1.1.1
            24 August 2016 at 9:15 pm

            Says who? Offering the concept more broadly fits with changing lifestyles and work habits. And it potentially gets kids away from union indoctrination. A win win.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 34.3.1.1.1.1
              25 August 2016 at 8:52 am

              …and there it is. Right wingers hate the freedoms of expression and association and will attack children in pursuit of their hatred.

              • maninthemiddle …
                25 August 2016 at 10:32 am

                Oh I support freedom of association. Unions oppose it. Witness their victimisation of the teacher who had ‘dared’ to do some work in a Partnership School. Unions are regressive, tired old organisations.

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  25 August 2016 at 11:59 am

                  …which lots and lots of teachers freely joined, and you hate that.

                  • maninthemiddle …
                    25 August 2016 at 12:35 pm

                    ‘Freely’….mmmmm.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      25 August 2016 at 12:43 pm

                      Yes, and since your views are motivated by hate, you smear and lie and attack them, and the children in their care.

                      What a low-life you are,

                    • maninthemiddle …
                      25 August 2016 at 12:46 pm

                      “Yes, and since your views are motivated by hate, you smear and lie and attack them, and the children in their care.”

                      You’ll have great difficulty proving that little piece of hatred. My comments have been about unions, not teachers, and not children. Learn to read OAB, it will mean your sensitivity radar doesn’t take such a beating.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      25 August 2016 at 12:55 pm

                      The reason you hate unions is that they empower their members, and protect them from hate-filled right wing scum like you: this is the motivation for the education policies you can barely spell, let alone account for.

                      In short, you are simply following in the footsteps of your spiritual leader, Augusto Pinochet.

                    • maninthemiddle …
                      25 August 2016 at 1:04 pm

                      “The reason you hate unions…”

                      I don’t hate unions. I just don’t rate them. They are past their use by date, often corrupt, and generally impede educational progress. Mind you, they have far less power today than in the past, and that’s a good thing.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      25 August 2016 at 1:10 pm

                      Gutless piece of shit that you are, you can’t even admit it; your feelings are exposed by your relentless hateful smears.

                    • maninthemiddle …
                      25 August 2016 at 1:15 pm

                      “Gutless piece of shit that you are, you can’t even admit it; your feeling are exposed by your relentless hateful smears.”

                      Oh dear, struck a nerve have I?

                      Look I’m not saying anything most people aren’t thinking. Union membership has plummeted. We unions in the news who didn’t pay their PAYE and GST on time. We have the remarkable scene in Australia of a Royal Commission being instituted to investigate union corruption, that found “widespread and deep-seated” misconduct by union officials. They’re dead or dying. Good riddance.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      25 August 2016 at 1:21 pm

                      The raw hatred is back again after a brief moment of cowardice and hypocrisy.

                    • maninthemiddle …
                      25 August 2016 at 1:23 pm

                      “The raw hatred is back again after a brief moment of cowardice and hypocrisy.”

                      Nope, none of those. Just common sense and observation. Or can you counter anything I’ve said with actual data, as opposed to the drivel you inevitably resort to?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      25 August 2016 at 9:07 pm

                      Partisan smears are neither observation nor common sense. Union members earn more. That’s why you hate them. Your hatred is on display for all to see, along with your vile ethics and attacks on children.

                    • maninthemiddle …
                      26 August 2016 at 9:59 am

                      “Union members earn more. ”

                      Really? I wonder why this then?

                      “Aside from a blip in 2009 when membership rose 3.9 per cent union membership has been declining and a 2 per cent drop in 2012 saw it fall to its lowest level in five years.

                      Tellingly, 40 per cent of unions have fewer than 100 members; the median number of members is 136.”

                      http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/9696643/Are-unions-a-good-deal-for-workers

                      If union members earn more, and people are leaving in droves, they must be shit at everything else they do.

                    • te reo putake …
                      26 August 2016 at 10:08 am

                      Yes, there are a plethora of tiny unions. They are mostly boss sponsored yellow unions or staff associations. However, the majority of Kiwi union members are in the large public and private sector unions and yes, they do enjoy wage rises higher than the average worker. They also get them regularly. In addition, CEA’s usually have better terms and conditions, including enhanced leave and redundancy payments.

                      Furthermore, tens of thousands of non union workers piggy back (that’s the polite term) off the work of unions . If it wasn’t for unions, the average Kiwi worker would be worse off, whether or not they are a member.

                    • maninthemiddle …
                      26 August 2016 at 11:45 am

                      “However, the majority of Kiwi union members are in the large public and private sector unions and yes, they do enjoy wage rises higher than the average worker.”

                      So you say. And yet the total number of NZ’ers joining unions has declined rapidly.

                    • te reo putake …
                      26 August 2016 at 12:23 pm

                      I’m sure 8 years of anti worker and anti union legislation under national has had nothing to do with that.

                    • maninthemiddle …
                      26 August 2016 at 12:50 pm

                      “I’m sure 8 years of anti worker and anti union legislation under national has had nothing to do with that.”

                      What anti-worker and anti-inion legislation? And union membership has been in decline for a lot longer than the life of this government.

                    • te reo putake …
                      26 August 2016 at 1:00 pm

                      Have you been out of the country? On Planet Key, maybe? This Government has watered down the ERA, taking away the need for employers to conclude bargaining, made access to workers harder and bought in a fire at will provision that minimises workers access to both the union and the collective agreements they promote.

                      The intention is to weaken the bargaining ability and protections workers used to enjoy. As you’d expect from a Tory government.

                    • maninthemiddle …
                      26 August 2016 at 1:17 pm

                      “This Government has watered down the ERA, taking away the need for employers to conclude bargaining, made access to workers harder and bought in a fire at will provision that minimises workers access to both the union and the collective agreements they promote.”

                      What nonsense. If things were that bad workers would be flocking to join unions, not leave them.

                    • te reo putake …
                      26 August 2016 at 1:19 pm

                      Careful you don’t get splinters shifting those goalposts, dude 😉

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      26 August 2016 at 1:22 pm

                      The goalposts might move, but the hatred stays right on target.

  35. Robert Guyton 35
    24 August 2016 at 9:30 am

    It’s far, far easier to inculcate students with a technological learning package than it is through a flesh and blood teacher. This new proposal suits the neolibs perfectly.

  36. Planet Earth 36
    24 August 2016 at 9:50 am

    This terrible government will try to legalise home schooling next.

    Oh wait….

  37. mac1 37
    24 August 2016 at 10:16 am

    So, why schools?

    Kids need friends, socialisation, guidance, inspiration.

    Try learning music on line, using a lathe or a chisel. Teaching language needs real-time interaction. As does art. Try teaching relationships on line- how to ask a girl out, how to negotiate the use of condoms.

    Or how do you do science experiments on line? Who organises the orchestras, bands, or the teams. How do you do PE on line?

    How do you get to use expensive gear like pianos, guitars etc, lathes, gas chambers, microscopes, gymnasium equipment? How do you access chemicals and use them safely?

    How are problems with motivation, social problems etc dealt with on line?

    How do you introduce kids to nature, to sport, to cooperative endeavours on line?

    Every student needs one on one contact. In standard three, even as the brightest in the class, I had problems with long division of money. ‘Divide 13 pound six shillings and nine pence by eight’ sort of thing. My teacher, Sister Dympna, bless her, sat me down along side her at the teacher’s desk and explained and explained until I got it.

    I don’t think I’d have got the same experience or enrichment that I got at school, as a student or as a teacher.

    I believe this move has several motivations. Break unions, get socially safe curriculum without exposure to dangerous ideas (dangerous to the elites, that is), dumb down education to the benefit of the elite who will still have their workers who are unquestioning and compliant, cheap ‘learning’ and profit for companies.

    And lastly, never underestimate two things- the power of ideology and secondly, the personal ambition of the Minister to ‘leave her mark’ similar to the failed attempt by John Key’s new flag campaign.

  38. Chooky 38
    24 August 2016 at 11:10 am

    imo there is a case for online education but only within the umbrella of State Education (including the Correspondence School) professional teaching and education standards

    …just as there is a case for university extramural education (eg Massey University) but only under the umbrella of a State University professional teaching and education standards

  39. save nz 39
    24 August 2016 at 11:13 am

    +100 “Why must we always follow international examples of worst practice a decade or two after America?”

    • Stuart Munro 39.1
      24 August 2016 at 2:46 pm

      Because worthless clowns like the Gnats cannot survive an educated populace. It is a survival imperative for them to create redneckery, and destroy NZ’s hopes of being intellectually competitive. This move ticks both boxes – it lets them steal current education assets to shore up their failing economic policies, and it promotes ignorance – win win.

  40. Neil 40
    24 August 2016 at 12:44 pm

    One of the biggest downfalls with this will be kids will loose the much needed skill of social skills of interacting with other people

  41. whispering kate 41
    24 August 2016 at 12:58 pm

    They will be removing out of the curriculum next learning how to print and write. Why would you need that skill if everything is done by touch typing on a keypad. Just what does this Government do with the tax payer revenue it gets, it has frozen budgets for yonks and is trying to privatize everything that moves, surely they should be reducing the amount of MP’s on the payroll to commensurate with their smaller pay outs and freezing their pay rates with it. like hopefully any other prudent business would – for that is what this government thinks it is – a business, shareholders in business get a better deal than the constituents in this country.

    Any parties yet voiced disapproval or are they sitting on their hands. Will this legislation get through all its stages – I wonder.

  42. Guerilla Surgeon 42
    24 August 2016 at 3:49 pm

    I remember a veteran of the 1951 waterfront dispute a few years ago saying that the teacher unions were the most effective in the country. I would dispute that, because I think the police union is by far the most effective, but teachers are good enough to make the National party hate them.:)

  43. maninthemiddle 43
    24 August 2016 at 5:40 pm

    If you can stomach seeing a grown man torn apart, here is Hipkins getting his nuts handed to him in Parliament today.

    http://www.inthehouse.co.nz/video/44941

  44. Robert Guyton 44
    24 August 2016 at 5:54 pm

    Good perspective from I/S

    “Firstly, the idea of allowing more distance education isn’t necessarily bad. There may be people who might do better under such a scheme, and there might be a couple of providers who could usefully supplement Te Kura in providing it at a primary and secondary level. It could be usefully looked at. And if the idea was coming from the education sector and driven by education professionals who were interested in outcomes and the welfare of those kids, it would be worth considering. But when it comes from an education minister whose sole priority in office seems to be trying to find ways to close schools, cut costs, and funnel public money to her private donors and cronies, its hard to view it as anything other than yet another means to achieve those ends.”

  45. Turandot 45
    25 August 2016 at 8:45 am

    This nonsense is blatantly idealogically driven. What about the value of socialisation aspect of education which children receive when interacting with others at school?

    Productive earning will not happen if children are isolated from their friends and peers at school. A happy child at school with good friends and positive peer relationships will learn much more successfully than a child sitting alone in front of a computer screen.

    They will also miss out on the affective qualities of the teacher. The presence of the teacher in the classroom is essential for managing and encouraging young people who need guidance and a sense of security with their learning.

    This “Cool” madness overlooks the value of co-curricular education as well. School sport, community service and participation in the many extra-curricular activities a school provides are essential for a balanced development of a young person.

    The old cliche of “Giving people choice” is a catch cry of the current minister. Poor people do not have choice.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 45.1
      25 August 2016 at 9:06 am

      Let’s name the ideology that’s driving it: hatred of unions, which in turn is motivated by little more than authoritarian greed and stupidity.

      Not much of an ideology when it comes down to it: hating and fearing your peers.

  46. NZJester 46
    25 August 2016 at 12:41 pm

    If the public schools received the sort of funding per student Charter Schools receive, you would soon see better results from a lot of those schools.
    While more money is spent per student on those attending a charter school, most of that money goes to the administration side of the charter school and the amount spent per student on supplying them with an education is actually higher per student in public schools.
    In charter schools you will find those at the top that have nothing to do with teaching the student getting big wage packets, while the teaching staff is littered with new teachers or teachers aides who are not yet an experienced teacher put in front of the students to teach so that the total wages for those doing the actual work of supplying the kids their education is lower in a charter school.
    Unlike public schools charter schools can a lot of the time cherry pick students. They will when possible leave the harder to teach kids to the public schools and grab as many of the smarter kids that require less work to teach as they can to skew the numbers to look like they are doing a better job.

    • Chooky 46.1
      25 August 2016 at 10:44 pm

      on the failure of Charter Schools in the US:

      ‘Failing the Test: Searching for Accountability in Charter Schools’

      http://capitalandmain.com/failing-the-test-searching-for-accountability-in-charter-schools-0602

      ….”David Tokofsky, a former member of the LAUSD Board of Education who has also worked for a charter school operator, cautions that the push for charter schools has been framed in terms of “education reform,” although the movement behind these schools, he says, is really one for deregulation of financial oversight and management.

      “Deregulation was supposed to be about curriculum,” Tokofsky says, allowing teachers and parents more freedom to craft education and programs to fit the students. “It has become deregulation about every aspect of the school.”

      “We know,” he adds, “when deregulated banks fail; we know when deregulated airplane doors fail. Do we know when deregulated schools are hurting your kids?”

  47. Joy Z Clark 47
    27 August 2016 at 7:33 pm

    https://saveourschoolsnz.com/2016/08/27/lies-hekia-parata-fabricates-a-special-education-association/ this is very alarming… outright lies from Hekia’s mouth in parliament.

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