New misogyny same as the old misogyny

Written By: - Date published: 12:38 pm, October 17th, 2021 - 140 comments
Categories: feminism, sexism, violence against women - Tags: , , , , ,

FiLia 2021 is a grass roots conference run by volunteer women, the largest feminist conference in Europe, and is running this weekend in Portsmouth in the UK. One thousand women attended. The conference covers,

  • anti-racism
  • class politics
  • disability
  • ecofeminism
  • feminist history
  • global issues
  • health
  • peace
  • representation
  • reproductive rights
  • secularism
  • sex-based rights
  • sexual exploitation industries
  • violence against women

The conference is being protested by gender identity activists. I’ll preface what I’m about to say by stating that obviously trans people deserve the same human rights as other people, including attention to their specific needs as trans. And I’m sorry for the trans people getting caught up in this war who just want to get on with their lives, they don’t deserve to be associated with this. Which is why I being clear that I am talking about Gender Identity Activists (GIAs), not trans people. Some feminists use the term Trans Rights Activists (TRAs) instead, and there are political reasons why they do that.

Regarding the rest of this post, I do feel like telling someone to come and get their people, I’m just not sure who I should direct that too, perhaps left wing, trans ally men.

There’s a vigil outside the conference for women who have been murdered by men. Bear in mind that this is a topic in the UK getting a lot of discussion at the moment because of recent sexual assaults and murders of women, including by a policeman.

Inside the conference women spoke about rape as a weapon.

Outside, GIAs chanted and displayed their true colours,

In case you think this is a one off or an outlier, please bookmark this website, terf is a slur, and refer to it each time women talk about the violence they are subjected to online when they talk about women’s sex-based rights.

(If you don’t know what TERF means yet, it’s an acronym coined by a trans ally feminist, originally used politically  to describe radfems who wanted women only spaces  (trans exclusionary radical feminist), and is now almost wholly used as a term of abuse directed at women.)

The images in this post are not uncommon, they’re routine.

Because it’s apparently not self-evident, I’ll let feminists spell it out.

Julie Bindel, long time campaigner on ending male violence against women, and speaker at the conference, wrote today in The Misogyny of Trans Activists,

A big focus is the campaign to end rape, domestic abuse, commercial sexual exploitation, and femicide, the killing of women and girls by men because they are women and girls.

As I approach the Guildhall where the conference is taking place I hear the now only-too familiar chants by trans activists: “Trans women are women!”, “No TERFS on Pompey”. One sign reads: “Imagine calling yourself a feminist while trying to dismantle the rights of a marginalised group of women and girls.”

The protesters are talking about a subset of men and boys who identify as transgender. During my session on the themes in my book on feminism, trans activists positioned themselves directly outside the windows, and attempted to drown out my words with “Blow jobs are real jobs” (they also object to any critique of the sex trade). Amnesty, whose work is supposed to empower and protect people, was also sponsoring these aggressively anti-female protests, as could be seen from the placards plastered with their logo.

Bindel speaking to the protestors outside the conference,

A feminist journalist I know came along to join in the conversation, suggesting that the signs being held up by some of their comrades telling the conference attendees to “Suck my dick you transphobic cunts” was not acceptable, and certainly not suggestive of an oppressed group protesting their oppressor. It looked rather more like plain old-fashioned misogyny. They said something along the lines of, “that’s how young people talk these days”. I told them that the last time I was attacked by a man (he punched me in the face when I told him to “sod off”) the last words I heard before being knocked out cold was “Suck my dick you cunt”.

https://twitter.com/helenlewis/status/1449460754114023432

https://twitter.com/NoThanksSport/status/1449447878741663744

It’s by no means the only reason, but this in itself is a big part of why so many women are saying no to the removal of female-only spaces. We have a right to our own politics and to not be subjected to sexualised violent imagery and rhetoric. And we have the right to determine where our boundaries are.

There’s no good reason I can see that women and trans women can’t be allies, each having their own politics, spaces and class-specific rights. But as Bindel’s piece demonstrates, one side is willing to work with the other, and the other is intent on something else entirely. If you’re on that side and still consider yourself progressive, come and get your people.

140 comments on “New misogyny same as the old misogyny ”

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  1. Molly 1
    17 October 2021 at 12:59 pm

    Good post, weka. Though as you know, there is much more happening than just protesting conferences. Doxxing, death threats, attempts to remove women from their employment, rape threats. Same old, same old.

    For those unaware of this, you have a choice. Pretend its not happening, or informing yourself. If you take time to inform yourself, your next choice will be related to your integrity.

  2. francesca 2
    17 October 2021 at 1:27 pm

    These transwomen are clearly a subset.I know transwomen who are totally lovely, would never speak in this way, in fact don't like to draw attention to the fact they have a "dick"

    Actually I think these GIA's are a subset of men, disturbed men .I don't think I have ever come across anyone with female sensibilities who would dream of this kind of violent speech or threat.If they're lesbians as many claim why aren't they badgering other transwomen lesbians for oral sex.I am not ready for the whole language of women to be upturned in this way, for people with male anatomy and sensibility to call themselves lesbian so they can have sex with natal women using their penises.

    They're incels, they're not screaming at men to have sex with them.It's frightening and I am so sad for young children growing up being told they have to accept this bullshit

    • Visubversa 2.1
      17 October 2021 at 2:07 pm

      We know what subset they are – and it is a majority, not a minority. The voices of the autogynephiliacs grossly outweigh the voices of the traditional, gender disphoric transperson. The men who used to spend the weekends in their wives underwear when she was away are now running the show.

  3. Sabine 3
    17 October 2021 at 1:31 pm

    Thanks for that stellar effort in putting this together.

    This misogyny is not new, it is as old as is the world and it just has become fashionable again. I still posit that with our resources declining, with our material world slowly dying and becoming hostile that one of the easiest fixes would be to compel women back out of the public life into a 'owned' one as either daughter or wife.

    But then i am a cynic who does not believe in the human kind to be good per se, but rather i believe that our species is the most cruel of them all, and given half a chance we will kill what we consider of no more use. And women in the views of many only have a a few uses, sucking dick is one of them, and maybe even the most important.

    https://www.feministcurrent.com/2016/10/04/this-is-how-they-broke-our-grandmothers/

    and this

    https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/the-queering-of-motherhood

    • Molly 3.1
      17 October 2021 at 2:50 pm

      Thanks, Sabine.

      Some really good reading there, including the embedded links in both articles.

  4. Sabine 4
    17 October 2021 at 1:47 pm

    There’s no good reason I can see that women and trans women can’t be allies, each having their own politics, spaces and class-specific rights. But as Bindel’s piece demonstrates, one side is willing to work with the other, and the other is intent on something else entirely. If you’re on that side and still consider yourself progressive, come and get your people.

    These are Man Rights Activists. men. They use Transwomen as a shield to deflect critique. And sadly it seems a great many politicians s have no issue with that.

    Again, what rights can any Transwoman expect if 'women' as a whole don't have any rights left. First and foremost the right to peacefully assembly with people of their own choosing and exercise the free exchange of ideas.

  5. Anker 5
    17 October 2021 at 2:04 pm

    Yes this mysogyny is shocking. There are so many aspect to gender ideology that are shocking and wrong and have nothing to do with the lovely trans people Francesca referes to..

    This is a link with a talk by a psychiatrist who is also a psychotherapist wiho treats trnasgender people in the UK. He is extremely interesting and informative. He describes trans as an umbrella term and elaborates on the different presentations. There is also a Scottish detransiter, a young women who took medication and now has a permanantly male sounding voice.

    • Sabine 5.1
      17 October 2021 at 2:11 pm

      Sinead has no more breasts, a double radical masectomy took care of that, a permanently altered voice, an enlarged clitoris, male pattern baldness, and needs to shave – still – at least once or twice a week. Not sure if she also got a hysto.

      She is a total treasure, smart, intelligent and funny, and hopefully will bring about change for detransitioners as it seems in the UK they want to not speak about these people. Nor do they want to provide medical and surgical aid to undo some of the damage.

      Something that was asked in the submissions here in NZ. Who will care for these people if it goes wrong? ACC? The government? WINZ?

    • Molly 5.2
      17 October 2021 at 4:01 pm

      Thanks, Anker. I've seen Sinead before and she speaks powerfully. Also good to hear Dr Hakeem's experience as a clinician.

      Poignant quote at the end:

      "Why aren't we all crying?"

  6. Liberal Realist 6
    17 October 2021 at 2:33 pm

    Great post Weka. I'd even call it brave given the reaction such posts can prompt from those that disagree with your point of view.

    From my perspective (being a cis male), activists of this ilk have always screamed misogyny in the language they use and their actions (such as protesting a feminist gathering). On the face of it, TRA type activism really does look like a veiled attempt at dominating and controlling women, and they've absolutely succeeded in dominating the political narrative in recent times. There also appears to be a concerted effort to involve children in their ideological war by way of health policy.

    Trans-activism seems to have come out of no where to become dominant in a short amount of time in places like the USA & UK (as part of the wider Identity Politics ideology) which smacks of elite directed social engineering to me, with the objective of continuous tribal infighting. What better way to keep people at each others throats, and most importantly distracted?

    • joe90 6.1
      17 October 2021 at 2:50 pm

      elite directed

      And who are these elites?

      • francesca 6.1.1
        17 October 2021 at 3:11 pm

        Who knows Joe

        People with money, influence and power?

      • Molly 6.1.2
        17 October 2021 at 3:21 pm

        In a conversation with my lovely mother this morning, she asked "Where did this come from?" My answer was both too long, and to suppositional for her to accept easily.

        I think a range of situations has come together.

        In the UK, Stonewall worked diligently and successful for decades to overturn Section 28, and highlight discrimination against homosexuals and lesbians. That success led to a high degree of credibility and prestige, and they became the defacto expert on issues relating to homosexuality. However, after that campaign was successful, what was their reason for being? Judith Butler provided the possibility for another movement, one based on gender identity, and the old guard left the new guard, with all the armoury, the highly trained lobbyists and the stirling reputation.

        Alongside that, we have new wave feminism, that welcomes all forms of sexual expression as sexual positivity. Yes, it's a good thing. Even if it does mean some women are subjected to same degradation and harm that they were before. Accessibility to gratuitous and disrespectful, violent pornography is a good thing too. It can be used as a teaching aide for sex education. Sex positivity is here to stay.

        Let's not forget the rise and harm of social media, that for a younger generation is all about memes and likes. Although we know this is not influential for all teens, we also know that research has uncovered stratospheric rises in self-harm and suicides for young people with heavy social media use. At a time in life, when you are discovering your place in the world, and dealing with the chemistry and impact of your changing body, this external validation reliance is a harmful one.

        Medicine, in the US particularly, can also be influenced by the possibility of customers. The fact that access to drugs that inhibit sexual development, fertility, and possible future sexual pleasure is more prevalent in the US says a lot about the health care system. The Tavistock review also says a lot about the current UK one.

        As a society we have forgotten how to debate. Social media has taught us how to condense, remove nuance and declare. A listening social media has not been invented. All entries are speaking outward, not listening in. Politicians demonstrate the game, along with journalists. We all know the rules, and that the outcome is not to learn, but to win.

        I'm sure there are many more influences, but these are just some suggestions I made before my mother fell asleep. Which points out that maybe I take questions too seriously, rather than she's bored. Whatever the answer, it is going to be complex.

        But the one sticking point, and apologies to the few who have taken part – is where are the left-wing men? Jordan Williams from the Taxpayers Union was the only man prepared to give Speak Up For Women an online realtime forum? Jordan Williams? And David Seymour was the MP raising concerns in Parliament and the media, despite women getting in touch with other MPs in the Greens and Labour?

        Who knows, Joe90?

        But I tell you what. A lot of harm happens when people aren't bothering to look.

      • weka 6.1.3
        17 October 2021 at 3:22 pm

        Stonewall in the UK. Academia in the US re gender identity ideology. Medical and pharmaceutical interests in both countries. There’s been a lot written about all that, including providing evidence.

        I don’t think distracting people is the purpose, it looks more like neoliberalism doing what to does (making money, consolidating power). To what extent the trans humanist, anti materialist aspects are part of that or a thing in their own right, I don’t know. They make good partners.

        as with liberal feminism, neoliberalism will take trans rights and form it in its own image.

    • francesca 6.2
      17 October 2021 at 3:19 pm

      Talking about social engineering, Martine Rothblatt an uber wealthy transwoman who heads a pharmaceutical company is also heavily into transhumanism .

      Break down the categories of sex and you begin the post modernist deconstruction of what it is to be human

      I find this stuff seriously nutty and kind of fascistic

      https://www.cbsnews.com/news/life-after-life-trangender-ceo-martine-rothblatt-builds-robot-bina48-mind-clone/

      • Molly 6.2.1
        17 October 2021 at 10:30 pm

        Such a sadness at the thought of people trying to avoid grief, by replacing their loved ones with a digital facsimile.

        So many things wrong with that, including not giving your loved one their total space in your life and heart while they're there, and the resultant emptiness when they are not.

        I can't think of anything less indicative of love, than replacing a human with technology.

  7. Puckish Rogue 7
    17 October 2021 at 2:48 pm

    If someone told me that we are actually living in alternative reality and this happened about 10 years I'd probably hear them out because once again women are coming off second best to men

    I never thought I'd see a day (lack of imagination probably) that saying men are different to women or only women can get pregnant and give birth is considered controversial

    In the case of JK Rowling she is a very good example of why you do not bend the knee and try to placate social justice warriors and twitter nutjobs

    I'll also say this isn't a left v right situation, more a sane people v people's whose cheese has slid right off the cracket

    • Visubversa 7.1
      17 October 2021 at 3:17 pm

      Unfortunately, these activists have captured a lot of the levers of the state and are using them to further the interests of their ideology. Helped by a compliant and subjugated media. Take this case – the ODT and The Herald fell over themselves to use the "required" pronouns for a violent and sadistic person found guilty of the torture and murder of a young woman. Ashley Winter was referred to as a woman throughout the trial, conviction and sentencing. Ashley Winter is a man who claims a special identity and in judicial systems in the UK, Canada, and parts of the USA, crimes by such people are referred to as having been committed by a woman. In the UK – where rape is a crime that can only be committed by the forceable use of a penis, nearly 400 such crimes have been reported as being committed by a woman.

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/house-of-horrors-duo-jailed-for-life-for-torture-and-murder-of-auckland-teen-dimetrius-pairama/SMZF6HFZHFDMVMWOFN6H4D46MI/

      • Anker 7.1.1
        17 October 2021 at 3:34 pm

        Visubversa ……….it is outrageous. Truly shocking.

      • miravox 7.1.2
        17 October 2021 at 3:45 pm

        That's the one of the most horrific and cowardly crimes I've ever read.

        He's in a men's prison? That sadistic, misogynistic male is a danger to all women.

        And the perpetrators of the other 400-odd crimes you mention – are there reports on their imprisonment, do you know?

        • Sabine 7.1.2.1
          17 October 2021 at 3:51 pm

          this is part of the Self ID. If they are considered lawfully women they can legally not be housed in a prison of the opposite sex. This has already caused numerous issues in the UK.

          here is a link about the judgement. It appears that some harm to women can be expected and is an ok price to pay. – by the women who comes to harm, obviously.

          https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57692993

          The judge said he "fully understood" the concerns of FDJ, and that women prisoners "may suffer fear and acute anxiety" if housed with a transgender woman who has male genitalia.

          But he added that the rights of transgender women prisoners must also be considered.

          "The unconditional introduction of a transgender woman into the general population of a women's prison carries a statistically greater risk of sexual assault upon non-transgender prisoners than would be the case if a non-transgender woman were introduced.

          "However, the policies require a careful, case by case assessment of the risks and of the ways in which the risks should be managed," he said.

          women, are they even human?

        • weka 7.1.2.2
          17 October 2021 at 4:19 pm

          One of the things happening in the UK is that each area chooses how to record sex or gender, and in some cases once sex is changed there's no way to track it. I think this might be happening in Canada as well. Given that the government has decided that sex is not a particularly relevant data to collect, we should be looking at what is happening in NZ. UK,

          The National Police Chiefs’ Council said: “How gender is recorded is a matter for each individual force. However, as a general rule we will accept the details that an individual provides us and treat them accordingly.”

          It said that “if there is an honestly held doubt about a person’s gender, then every effort will be made to establish that person’s gender identity”.

          “There is no evidence to suggest that recording a person’s gender based on the information that they provide will have an impact on an investigation or on national crime statistics, because of the low numbers involved.”

          https://archive.is/oGwYg#selection-759.0-767.219

          "Honestly held doubt" snort.

          One in 50 male offenders in prisons are self-identifying as transgender, according to a survey by the official jail watchdog, amid concerns inmates may be attempting to secure extra perks.

          The figure, the first by the watchdog, suggests there are up to 1,500 transgender inmates among the 90,000 prisoners in England and Wales, more than ten times previous estimates, and at least four times the number in the general population.

          https://archive.is/Hn7F8#selection-1173.0-1181.240

          Who saw that coming? Gender critical women. Who didn't see it coming? The UK justice system, gender identity activists, and left wing trans allies. Apparently. Or maybe they just didn't care.

            • weka 7.1.2.2.1.1
              17 October 2021 at 5:01 pm

              Seems like there are people in public positions who feel huge pressure to conform to the smash the binary narrative, and there are men who like the ideology because it takes power from women and/or let’s men off the hook a bit. It’s often hard to tell which at any given time.

              • chris T …
                17 October 2021 at 5:25 pm

                Pushing it to see where it is dudes being dudes is the problem here.

                Totally agree we have been a bit scum over the centuries. But just not seeing it on this occassion.

                BTW. I know it is annoying and not mentioned much, but it was actually dudes that voted to give women the vote and there were a lot of them on the suffragettes side.

                We ain't all evil.

                • Molly …
                  17 October 2021 at 5:32 pm

                  …I know it is annoying and not mentioned much, but it was actually dudes that voted to give women the vote …

                  Why was that?

                  We ain't all evil.

                  Yeah, we know. Not all men. We have fathers, brothers, sons and partners that are male. We know. We have birthed males from our female bodies. We know.

                  But, a few men do cause immense harm to both women and men. And many other men, consider that sex-based harm to be women's problems and do not bother to keep track or speak out against those members of their sex.

                  • chris T …
                    17 October 2021 at 6:04 pm

                    “Why was that?”

                    Because a lot of women and men demanded that women should be able to vote

                    • Molly …
                      17 October 2021 at 6:37 pm

                      My point was, Dudes 'gave' women the vote because they were the only sex with political power. Women had to wait for that equity.

                  • chris T …
                    17 October 2021 at 7:03 pm

                    Well yes, obviously. But there were plenty of dudes backing them.

                    Don't get me wrong, there some amazing strong independent women who got wome the vote throu gh some pretty ugly shit including deaths, but don't pretend no dudes were on their side and it was all chick verse man stuff.

                    As that is silly

                    • weka …
                      17 October 2021 at 7:04 pm

                      Literally no-one here is talking chick vs man apart from yourself Chris.

                    • Molly …
                      17 October 2021 at 7:35 pm

                      Chris, my best friends at school for most of my primary life were male. Those friendships changed in high school, as they usually do but returned in my twenties which I treasured. My partner is male, three of my four children are male. Men in my life are loved and valued. There is no chick vs dude narrative going on here. Just a comment on how priorities might be differently given, and how those priorities often put women's rights on the Nice to Have list after the important stuff.

                      ( Yes, Dudes did help. But only after they took time to listen. The impetus to give away power does not often come from the powerful, if ever. Not because they are implicitly evil, it often just doesn't occur to them.)

                    • Anker …
                      18 October 2021 at 12:23 pm

                      most men I am o.k. with totally. I am married to one! But the people who commit violence and sexual violence against women are overwhelmingly men, and some of them identify as women.

                      I actually appreciate every man on this site who is supportive of us. It is interesting because it seems to be most of the more "right " wing for want of a better term, men. So PR, Chris and some others seem to get what we are saying. The more leftish men seem to be so wedded to supporting a minority group, that they are failing badly to see the issues and as such imo they are letting women down big time.

                • weka …
                  17 October 2021 at 6:07 pm

                  not sure what you are on about Chris. I named some motivations for different groups of men. Where did I say men as a class are evil?

                  • chris T …
                    17 October 2021 at 6:12 pm

                    Sorry mate. Probably me just not getting the right end of the stick. Post just seemed a bit anti male.

                    Apologies

              • chris T …
                17 October 2021 at 7:11 pm

                Fair enough.

                I probably just read too much into your post than was there.

                I apologise.

                Ignore me 🙂

          • miravox 7.1.2.2.2
            17 October 2021 at 5:41 pm

            I'm trying to find out how TRAs feel about supporting women in these situations. I've googled, but not come up with much other than trans women should not be in men's prisons (true) and not be isolated because they're trans (understandable – isolation is a cruel punishment).

            I do realise TW have suffered some terrible abuses in men's prisons and it is right to change that. But authorities have just shifted the problem, not solved the issue of gender-related abuses in prisons. Transgender sex offenders especially, should not be in women's prisons. But women are called on to stand aside else they are not good allies.

            Women are called on to unequivocally support transrights. Is there solidarity when transwomen are clearly a danger to women? Do TRAs denounce these people? Are TRAs active in solutions where women are endangered? Do the press ask for a statement from trans rights groups when women are victimised in prison by these criminals? Because I can't easily find anything that suggest they do.

            • Molly 7.1.2.2.2.1
              17 October 2021 at 5:55 pm

              Hi Miravox,

              In the instance of men in women's spaces, I believe the responsibility lies with the government and their institutions rather than the TRA's, or to use the term weka suggests in this situation Gender Identity Activists.

              (The distinction being that we would all probably be alright with being called a Trans Right Activist, as we support our transgender community. However, the Gender Identity Activists have an extended ideology that includes dismantling of single sex spaces, and biological sex recognition).

              Women are called on to unequivocally support transrights. Is there solidarity when transwomen are clearly a danger to women? Do TRAs denounce these people? Are TRAs active in solutions where women are endangered? Do the press ask for a statement from trans rights groups when women are victimised in prison by these criminals? Because I can't easily find anything that suggest they do.

              Women would – as a percentage – probably support transgender rights over men. Solidarity would indicate a concern for any harm done, but you are right, the voices naming harms made possible by Gender Identity ideology being given uncritical entry into institutional policies, seem to be dulled, or non-existent.

              • miravox …
                17 October 2021 at 7:44 pm

                Thanks Molly for the definitions. I do agree that the responsibility lies with government and institutions rather than any advocacy group.

                What I'm trying to get to is we usually hear about the appropriateness of institutional decisions in almost any field via news reports. The press often has a go-to spokesperson on speed dial for practically anything! But not for these issues, it seems.

                Using definitions you've given me, I'd love to know what leading GI activists think about the protests in weka's post. Is this what they want? Do they think the nature of these protests are justified?

                I'd be very keen to know also what TRAs think about the situation of self-identified trans women in women's prisons, when it appears there are men who are not really the trans gendered as they profess to be. Because I imagine they advocated for the removal of trans women from men's prisons due to the risk of harm. What do they think of the institutional solution? I think it is pretty clear what GI activists believe.

                I don't want to assume, without cause, that all trans activists think the same when it comes to women's safety. Information is key, but it's not easy to find.

                • Joanne perkins …
                  18 October 2021 at 11:22 am

                  Not that I am in any way an activist these days but as a transwoman I object to my identity being co-opted by these GIA's as a way to further marginalise women, in my view they also further marginalise us transwoman with this sort of tactic. Thank you for this post Weka

                  • Anker …
                    18 October 2021 at 12:25 pm

                    Thanks Joanne. I saw at least two transwomen give submissions to SOP 59 who said the same as you.

                  • miravox …
                    18 October 2021 at 3:05 pm

                    Thanks Joanne, I really appreciate your reply. I know radical protest is a fair tactic that can lead to some accommodation, but these protests do not feel like that is the aim at all.

                  • Molly …
                    18 October 2021 at 5:54 pm

                    Thanks Joanne.

                    I also object to these people assuming the voices for the transgender community.

                    Nothing I have found or read gives them that authority, yet they are not condemned by our institutions for the aggressive and violent manner of exercising their right to protest. That inaction creates division between groups that should be allies.

        • Anker 7.1.2.3
          17 October 2021 at 6:40 pm

          I agree Miravox. It is an absolutely appalling crime. I don't think it got that much publicity and you had to read the article to find out the perpertrator was trans.

          Dr Hakeem is interesting. He talks about trans being an umbrella term to cover a heterogenious group of people. He manages to convey very well how teens identifying as trans is part of what teens do. They rebel and this is particularly true around their identity. He also talks about transwomen he has seen in a forensic unit (Broadmore) who have. significant paraphilliasSome of these trans women absolutely do want access into women's spaces for neferious purposes. It really angers me that this is denied.

      • Sabine 7.1.3
        17 October 2021 at 3:47 pm

        And better still, this Man will be provided a bunk in a female prison here in nz, he will be allowed to shower with women, he will share all of their spaces and if they were to 'mis gender' him they would probably be 'punished' by it as it already has happened in the US, UK, Canada.

        And this in a nutshell is the issue with 'self identification'. And to me there is an almost sadistic tone to the people who are ok with a man who committed such a crime to be locked up with a women and then offer condoms to the bloke and abortions to the women in question. And reprimand the women should she mis gender the bloke or complain about them being violent.

        Someone in government is ok with this, and I would really like to know why?

        In the California there are hundreds men on the list waiting to get transferred to female prisons.

        https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-04-05/california-prisons-consider-gender-identity-housing-requests

        https://wbckfm.com/california-supply-womans-prisons-condoms-biological-men-housed-prisons/

        And Weka has posted previously about this issue but happening in England. Where oh boy, really, rape happened. Who could have foreseen.

        • Puckish Rogue 7.1.3.1
          17 October 2021 at 4:57 pm

          Hi Sabine, we're on the same page here but just to let you know trans women, in CWP when I did some shifts there, have separate shower timings to the women

          She'd go into the shower block and one of us officers would be outside

          They're building new wings which, as I understand it, have showers in the cells and hopefully are single person cells

          Trans prisoners do have slightly more rights than other prisoners though in that trans female prisoners in Rolleston Men's have the handheld metal detector used on them rather than being physically rubbed down by an officer

          In CWP there's more than a few females officers that don't like rubbing down trans females but they have to (male officers don't do rub downs in women's prisons)

    • Anker 7.2
      17 October 2021 at 3:33 pm

      Welcome back PR!

      Totally agree. Speak Up for Women are almost always referred to as a controversial group (trans activists label them a hate group, even though the High Court declared they were not). Yet it isn't seen as controversial that a man can declare himself a woman and change his birth certificate entirely.

      I agree it is not a left/right situation, although unforturnately certain lefties have been captured by the ideology.

      Love your comment re sand v. people whose cheese has slid right off the cracker.!

      • Puckish Rogue 7.2.1
        17 October 2021 at 4:47 pm

        Thanks, I'll try to stick around longer this time angel

        Warning: rant about to start

        When I was growing up my dad (born in 1941) seemed to be stuck in the 1970s, still wanted to use cheques although didn't understand why you shouldn't write "cash", never got his head around video recorders, didn't trust automatic cars, eftpos was too hard, mom basically did everything but dad gave out the orders kind of thing and I never understood it

        Well now I'm in the position where I can start to understand him a little because this world we're in has changed so much and so quickly over the last, it seems, 5-10 years

        Whether you agree with Andrew Brent Breitbart or not he was right when he said "Politics is downstream from culture"

        Mainstream movies, music, comics, TV series etc are all worse than ever, all seemingly to please a loud twitter mob that will never be satisfied

        It all seems to be a race to see who has the most victim points (and it's not women, it will never be women) and if you're a member of The Most Victimised Group (which seems to change weekly) you get to set the agenda

        Yet ultimately it just concentrates more power in the hands of the corporations and govt

        OK rant over

        • Molly 7.2.1.1
          17 October 2021 at 4:55 pm

          Hey, PR. Dr Akeem in the video above says something along similar lines to your 'rant'. Worth watching, very little filler talk.

          • Puckish Rogue 7.2.1.1.1
            17 October 2021 at 4:58 pm

            I'm glad I'm pushing 50 and have a max of 35 years or so left

            Imagine growing up in this world and thinking its normal

            • Anker 7.2.1.1.1.1
              17 October 2021 at 5:12 pm

              Out of interest PR. I know you are or were a prison officer.

              In one of the submission on gender self id a guy who work in "law enforcement made a claim (unverified) that a trans women was transferred to Wiri prison and there have been three pregnancy there since.

              Have you heard of this? Is it just a rumour? truth? Other instances of such things in NZ prisons?

              • Puckish Rogue …
                17 October 2021 at 5:21 pm

                I haven't heard anything like that and given how the media like to dump on corrections at the best of times you'd think it'd be in the papers if it had happened (the more people involved the more chance of leaks and all that)

                Having said that a lot of stuff does go on that the public don't know about so maybe?

                I will say that, based on what happens overseas, its probably just a matter of time before it happens here unfortunately

                • Anker …
                  17 October 2021 at 5:29 pm

                  Thanks PR. Like I said it was unverified.

                  While the media like to pounce on corrections, there has been a blackout on coverage of self id bill etc, unless it is favourable puff pieces, (with the odd exception)

                • Cricklewood …
                  17 October 2021 at 9:07 pm

                  Very true, I got to know one of NZs most notorious criminals quite well (after release) the stories he eventually told me over a few years about how things operated esp in max with regards the lifers and how things were worked out with guards, perks etc… were an opener to put it midly.

                  Then from my own observations and chatting with staff and prisoners coming and going from Rimutaka opened my eyes further.

                  Only thing I'll commit to writing is that illiteracy or close to afflicts alot of prisoners and that the cell phone blocking tech was a completing fucking joke…

                  • Puckish Rogue …
                    17 October 2021 at 9:41 pm

                    If the political will was there it could be cleaned up but Corrections is not exactly a vote winner

            • Molly 7.2.1.1.1.2
              17 October 2021 at 5:16 pm

              Pre-Covid I had a conversation with my twenty-something nephew, who asked what I thought was going to happen in the future. Talking about the impact of climate change, and the breakdown of democratic institutions and services, meant that his generation have a lot of issues to deal with.

              I said that I considered my generation (slightly, but not much older than yours) to be the last one that could reasonably expect to enter adulthood through a period of freedom and exploration, before accepting the burden and pleasure of responsibility. There are such immense issues to be solved, that to do so, means immediate engagement with the problems left to the young as an enduring legacy.

              I also consider myself also to be a beneficiary of the feminism of the 70's. The sexual behaviours considered healthy now, would have had me running for the hills – a la Julie Andrews…

              Wouldn't want to be navigating this world as a young person now either.

  8. Dennis Frank 8
    17 October 2021 at 4:01 pm

    It's admirable that the conference is sufficiently ambitious to address the 14 areas of concern that you listed, Weka. I'm rather surprised that identity politics has been omitted. Was that inadvertent or deliberate?

    Seems to me the rancour arises from midperceptions of group & personal identity, in relation to whichever groups/activists are in the topic of focus at the time. Incidentally, the trigger for my exit from the Green Party was the censorship imposed on an 80 year old feminist the year before last, for ideological reasons.

    I believed she had the right to defend women's rights in the GP media (Te Awa). I saw nothing wrong with what she wrote. The censorship decision was made by the GP Executive – an elected group. When democracy defeats minority rights, democracy is evil. But I did leave it through election year to see if Green electoral framing would convince me to remain. It didn't…

    • Molly 8.1
      17 October 2021 at 4:57 pm

      That's interesting, Dennis.

      Would hope for better from a party that espouses consensus.

    • Anker 8.2
      17 October 2021 at 5:08 pm

      I am now politically homeless because of this issue too Denis, although maybe you have found another home

      • Dennis Frank 8.2.1
        17 October 2021 at 5:51 pm

        Yeah, I'm @ home in the Green movement, @ home in Aotearoa, @ home in Gaia.

        PR's quote from Breitbart is relevant: politics is downstream from culture. If one has a home in a cultural niche, one's identity derives some security from that sense of belonging. I do hope you belong within some kind of cultural niche – regardless of temporary loss of political affiliation.

        From the perspective of identity politics, seems to me it depends how you generated your sense of identity. Something worth thinking about, eh? We are to some extent self-created, but as children we get a considerable shaping effect from family, friends and culture.

        One topic I often think about is nonlocal community. Social media, for instance. To belong, or not to belong, that is the question. Paraphrasing Hamlet! smiley

        I grew up a loner, so that was my original identity politically. Then rebel as teenager. Then alt-politics practitioner as young adult. So my natural tendency is to be marginal. Fortunately I discovered that you can get more leverage from the margin: it is a more inherently creative social domain.

        Chaos theory taught us why (late'80s) – it's the boundary between the in-crowd & the out-crowd. So if you oscillate tween the two realms you can use natural magic. It's due to the balance tween the two attractors. Thus shamanism, shapeshifting. Fluid identity change is politically effective when you do it in harmony with the situation.

        Hope this glimpse into deep context helps your thinking about your situation. There's another angle worth considering: transcendence of social categories. If you reframe on whatever set of political categories are current, you are potentially able to shift from this as narrative to this as metanarrative. A higher form of cognition, based on whatever principles or archetypes underlie the categories. Then it becomes possible to discern developmental trajectories of these social groups, and see how they are likely to trend as time passes…

        • Tiger Mountain 8.2.1.1
          17 October 2021 at 6:56 pm

          You are hereby awarded post modernist “Pyscho-babble” spiel of the day…

          • Dennis Frank 8.2.1.1.1
            17 October 2021 at 7:03 pm

            Cool, thanks. Always a bonus when a personal message to someone gets a rise out of someone else! devil

  9. Tiger Mountain 9
    17 October 2021 at 4:18 pm

    As a left wing male (socialist, unionist, supporter of untold movements, marches, rallies, iwi occupations, strikes, pickets, ’81 Tour vet, against Rogernomics, for Nuke Free, Homosexual Law Reform, Beneficiary advocate, against ECA, for Pay Equity and Equal Pay and Paid Parental Leave, for gay marriage, and so on…politicised women and lesbians in particular have been amongst the staunchest political allies imaginable in all of those struggles and many others besides.

    …let me say unequivocally that women should have their spaces, rights and very being as women defended.

    I have kept my head down a bit in the trans debate as I figure it out. And lets be clear a number of younger people have bought the tagline–“Trans women are women”. You can be up for a shitstorm online for opining differently. There are scientific and medical opinions galore, sports participation issues, and cultural divides. Trans Women are Women–or else! is not a great way to build wide unity. Trans women are Trans women would be a good place to be–and Trans women should have the rights of other citizens implicit–not to be harassed or discriminated against etc.

    All exploited and oppressed groups deserve support to deal with their immediate issues because an injury to one is an injury to all in old school working class terms. Lets not forget old school working class could also mean bigotry and sexism of disturbing degrees. But the principle should ideally still hold today. But really any group that wants support should not crap on other oppressed and exploited groups that have their own battles and history.

    The cutting edge of new movements job is historically to rark people up a bit and make noise and ultimately change, but if they create disunity and victimise women or individual women in particular, and in a misogynistic manner! that should be unacceptable and more should speak up.

    • Molly 9.1
      17 October 2021 at 4:31 pm

      Thanks, TM.

    • left for dead 9.2
      18 October 2021 at 9:39 am

      TM … your happy with (Gun nut) slagging along with the misogynistic comments about a women member of our Parliament ?

      • Tiger Mountain 9.2.1
        18 October 2021 at 1:54 pm

        use your words please…no idea what you are on about

        • left for dead 9.2.1.1
          18 October 2021 at 3:32 pm

          I can tell,you shoot your mouth off often,think about it.

          • weka 9.2.1.1.1
            18 October 2021 at 3:36 pm

            I also have no idea what you are talking about. Please clarify.

            • left for dead 9.2.1.1.1.1
              18 October 2021 at 4:54 pm

              TM remarks @ 9,waxing lyrical about being leftwing,fair and not misogynistic.I was pointing out that lie.And to be fair I wasn't commenting to you weka,so please clarify you self.

              1. TM has made general claims about firearm holders.

              a,lumping all as (gun nuts)

              2. And about certain Female MP,which could hold (the standard) liable,which this man gets away with.

              • left for dead …
                18 October 2021 at 5:19 pm

                And too be clear weka,I am male and not rightwing supporting this very serious topic.I tried to remind TM not to make supercillious assocations with other leftwing men here,as has been noted some left leaning men here are unhelpful with this issue.

  10. Forget now 10
    17 October 2021 at 5:09 pm

    Um,.. has no one else here noticed than these are trans men activists? "Suck my Strap" is a bit of a giveaway there. So if they were compelled to use the public spaces provided for the gender they were assigned at birth, they would be forced to use what GCs call women's spaces. And probably kick the literal shit out of every toilet bowl in the process, because yeah; some trans men are pretty misogynistic after the lives they've led.

    Also; as much as some trans women seem to preform stereotypical parody of feminity, some trans men do the same with stereotypical masculinity. I don't pretend to understand it myself, being off doing my own thing in a NonBinary Takātapui kind of way. But then I'm more of a trans inactivist, so I have no idea how I'd go about influencing the behavior of angry trans men on the other side of the world! We're not some hive-mind of conformity – more a loose grouping of allies, who often bicker amongst themselves as much as against others. If you think TERF is an insult (and Viv Smythe seemed to be going for as neutral a term as possible originally), then Truscum certainly is! And that's what some trans call other trans people they have differences of opinion with – and that's not the worst of it either.

    When you are going to be hated and excluded from society anyway, then some lose all inclination to act politely according to the norms of that society. Punk rock is still alive on many a trans man's playlist. Just don't call one of them boot boys a; self-hating lesbian on steroids, in the unlikely event that they do obey any rules forcing them to use women's spaces – that could end badly.

    • Molly 10.1
      17 October 2021 at 5:26 pm

      Um,.. has no one else here noticed than these are trans men activists? "Suck my Strap" is a bit of a giveaway there.

      Not necessarily, forget now. The changes in language in this topic are so rapid, you might be unaware that there are Gender Identity Activists referring to their penises as "organic dildos" or "organic straps". I don't go looking for these terms, they just occur on some feminist sites when I am seeking information.

      Whoever they are. Whether transwomen, transmen or new wave feminists, it doesn't matter. What matters is their abuse, including sexual violence, being perpetrated against a group of women, and that behaviour not being condemned by the police, or others.

      "So if they were compelled to use the public spaces provided for the gender they were assigned at birth, they would be forced to use what GCs call women's spaces. And probably kick the literal shit out of every toilet bowl in the process, because yeah; some trans men are pretty misogynistic after the lives they've led."

      That excuse is a stretch, and only an excuse.

      Think about becoming active, and we won't have such Gender Identity Activists being the public face of your community. Gender Critical Feminists recognise this subset of violent activists is just that. But they are doing harm, and the silence of those who witness the harm, or the excusing of them, is taken as approval for them to continue.

      • Molly 10.1.1
        17 October 2021 at 5:38 pm

        Sorry, ...threats of sexual violence…

      • Molly 10.1.2
        17 October 2021 at 6:00 pm

        Second sorry, "pink strap" also refers to a male penis.

        They are so clever, aren't they with their 'little man' jokes?

      • Forget now 10.1.3
        17 October 2021 at 6:01 pm

        They're not my community; Molly. They live on the other side of the world, and I doubt I even know anyone who knows anyone who may have communicated with them! Nor do I see why they should listen to anything I have to say, nor I to them. My Hapū are comfortable enough with who I am, I'm really not too interested what foreign pākehā think of me. Though I do sometimes have to speak up when someone makes too obvious an error (simple biology!). But most of the time the game is not worth the candle.

        At least it's only threats of violence at this stage – actual violence is much more difficult to eventually reconcile. Transphobic assaults are more common against trans women than trans men or NBs anyway – less likely to fight back, which bullies always appreciate. I do have hopes that progressive Gender Criticals (unlike GCFascists such as the Proud Boys in the USA) may one day put aside their differences with the diverse gender communities. I only fear that won't be until a greater threat forces us into reluctant cooperation.

        • Molly 10.1.3.1
          17 October 2021 at 6:13 pm

          They're not my community; Molly. They live on the other side of the world, and I doubt I even know anyone who knows anyone who may have communicated with them! Nor do I see why they should listen to anything I have to say, nor I to them.

          Great! Now that is an honest comment. But you do realise that your first instinct was to post a 300 word comment excusing their behaviour?

          My Hapū are comfortable enough with who I am, I'm really not too interested what foreign pākehā think of me. Though I do sometimes have to speak up when someone makes too obvious an error (simple biology!). But most of the time the game is not worth the candle.

          Biology is simple. Biological reality is lived. You have an opportunity to be clear about what you mean instead of making oblique references. Try to do that, and we can have an open and perhaps meaningful discussion. Admitting to your mistakes goes a long way too… "Um,.. has no one else here noticed than these are trans men activists? "Suck my Strap" is a bit of a giveaway there."

          At least it's only threats of violence at this stage – actual violence is much more difficult to eventually reconcile. Transphobic assaults are more common against trans women than trans men or NBs anyway – less likely to fight back, which bullies always appreciate. I do have hopes that progressive Gender Criticals (unlike GCFascists such as the Proud Boys in the USA) may one day put aside their differences with the diverse gender communities. I only fear that won't be until a greater threat forces us into reluctant cooperation.

          But it's not only threats of violence, forget now. Just threats of violence in this particular instance. Just as you are apparently not up to date on the current lexicon, you seem to be unaware of actual violent harm done in the name of Gender Identity ideology facilitated by institutional capture and silence.

          (The Proud Boys aren't Gender Critical. Regardless of what they say, the truth lies in their name.)

          • Anker 10.1.3.1.1
            17 October 2021 at 7:41 pm

            The community in NZ has sent death and rape threats to some GC feminists. And also accused SUFW of being a hate group, which it isn't. The gender activists successfully shut down SUFWs meetings and advertisements. IMO silencing women in this way is abusive. It is manipulative abuse too. If you query gender self id and express concerns you are labelled a bigot.

            I must say though Forget Now, at least you have come on this thread to discuss.

            Not that I am doubting it Forget Now,but do you have any stats on assault of transwomen. ?

            • francesca 10.1.3.1.1.1
              18 October 2021 at 7:57 am

              And I would confidently wager that those assaults were committed by men , not women.Male violence is the issue here.

        • weka 10.1.3.2
          17 October 2021 at 6:37 pm

          At least it's only threats of violence at this stage – actual violence is much more difficult to eventually reconcile. Transphobic assaults are more common against trans women than trans men or NBs anyway – less likely to fight back, which bullies always appreciate. I do have hopes that progressive Gender Criticals (unlike GCFascists such as the Proud Boys in the USA) may one day put aside their differences with the diverse gender communities. I only fear that won't be until a greater threat forces us into reluctant cooperation.

          Women are already being raped in prison by trans women, or by men pretending to be trans women. Thanks to self-ID and GIA, it's hard to tell which.

          Assaults on trans women are almost always done by men. The problem isn't gender critical people, it's male violence. If we can't name sex base violence, we won't be able to solve the problem TW either.

          Left wing gender critical women have a problem with gender identity ideology where it impacts on our sex-based rights. The difference isn't with diverse gender communities, it's with people trying to remove our rights. Although tbf, there are increasing number of gc people who now just say gender is a nonsense because they're so sick of the bullshit.

          As I said in the post, women are happy to sit down and talk, it's not us blocking rapprochement.

        • Molly 10.1.3.3
          17 October 2021 at 7:18 pm

          A PS. I appreciate you coming on to comment, even though we appear to disagree at present.

          It would be good to both make an effort towards finding places of common ground where we both stand.

          For my part, I accept those within the transgender community find prejudice and discrimination in society. And suffer violence and harm. As a Gender Critical person, I consider that prejudice to be associated with pre-conceived notions of how a person – male or female – is expected to behave, and those notions are harmful to all.

          Violence and harm perpetuated on transgender persons is an issue caused in part by those notions, but also by the tendency of perpetrators to recognise the vulnerabilities of certain minorities. Vulnerable in this case because of society’s mores, and lack of notice of harm.

          Therein lie similar power apathy issues with women as a biological sex.

      • Tiger Mountain 10.1.4
        17 October 2021 at 6:22 pm

        Yep, silence is condoning. It has taken a number of months reading and talking to others to get up to speed on this, though I know what my instinctive position was.

        Oldest line…but, when I was a voluntary teen street kid, and motorised “V8 Boy” later on the streets of Auckland, I had several young trans friends who were sorting their identities and lives out. It was just “rebels” acceptance all round. Simpler times.

  11. Anker 11
    17 October 2021 at 5:10 pm

    100% Molly. Thanks TM

  12. Dennis Frank 12
    18 October 2021 at 3:37 am

    I wonder if the hate speech legislation will define human identity. Social categories are identity-based. Trans-gender diversity of multiculture is forcing everyone to consider how identity is created and defined, eh? So to resolve all the contention about who fits in what category, the law will have to be specific.

    For instance, is someone with a single body and two heads one person or two? It can't happen here, you reckon? It's happened overseas, so why not?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abby_and_Brittany_Hensel

    So the wiki describes twins even though they share a single body.

    The twins have a single body with separate heads and necks… Each twin manages one side of their conjoined body… They cooperatively use their limbs when both hands or both legs are required. By coordinating their efforts, they are able to walk, run, swim, and ride a bicycle normally. Together, they can type on a computer keyboard and drive a car… The twins both passed their driver's license exams, both the written and practical tests. Although driving is a coordinated activity, they had to take the test twice, once for each twin. Abby controls the devices on the right of the driver's seat; Brittany, those on the left. Together they control the steering wheel… They graduated with Bachelor of Arts degrees in 2012

    Seems clear that society is recognising them as dual citizens. The wiki does not mention if each gets to vote. I presume the system allocates their voting rights on the basis of their different personal identities despite being in the same body.

  13. Dennis Frank 13
    18 October 2021 at 5:54 am

    There's another point to be made re the current fluidity in identity politics: shapeshifting is a survival skill. It's hard to hit a moving target. So when group competition turns a group into a target, members ought to recall that they can always shapeshift the hell outta there pronto. Just by adopting a new identity.

    The psychology is worth a look. It's fairly simple:

    Groups give us a sense of social identity: a sense of belonging to the social world. We divide the world into “them” and “us” based through a process of social categorization (i.e. we put people into social groups).

    https://www.simplypsychology.org/social-identity-theory.html

    The central hypothesis of social identity theory is that group members of an in-group will seek to find negative aspects of an out-group, thus enhancing their self-image… This is known as in-group (us) and out-group (them)… Tajfel and Turner (1979) proposed that there are three mental processes involved in evaluating others as “us” or “them” (i.e. “in-group” and “out-group”. These take place in a particular order.

    First is categorization. Second stage, social identification, we adopt the identity of the group we have categorized ourselves as belonging to. Third stage is social comparison.

    Once we have categorized ourselves as part of a group and have identified with that group we then tend to compare that group with other groups. If our self-esteem is to be maintained our group needs to compare favorably with other groups. This is critical to understanding prejudice

    So when these three stages of group identity formation occur in the psyche, identity becomes political.

  14. Maurice 14
    18 October 2021 at 7:49 am

    As long as the new misandry is also the same as the old misandry perhaps the conservative balance will be ongoing?

  15. francesca 15
    18 October 2021 at 7:52 am

    What's going on behind the scenes, funded by billionaires without due ethical consideration, should concern us all, and I think it provides some answers as to who funds the political trans movement.

    Dystopian sci fi and the specter of Frankenstein’s monster have stoked fears of emerging technologies. But such marketing is a whole lot easier with an ideological movement behind it, a movement which supports bodily adaptations as a route to happiness.

    https://areomagazine.com/2019/04/19/reproductive-rights-in-the-transhuman-future/

    And Jennifer Bilek again , for those of us astounded by the rapid adoption of trans demands by major corporations, govt departments, media. Lesbians and gays , who didn't demand anything of the wider population except to be left the fuck alone , fought for decades to stop discrimination.

    https://thefederalist.com/2018/02/20/rich-white-men-institutionalizing-transgender-ideology/

    • Molly 15.1
      18 October 2021 at 8:23 am

      Thanks, Francesca.

      While looking at the social aspects of this, I had put the funding issue to one side. Your links give weight and specificity to the connection.

  16. Visubversa 16
    18 October 2021 at 7:52 am

    I see the protest against women getting together to discuss their sex class rights was supported by Amnesty International.

    Image

  17. francesca 17
    18 October 2021 at 8:08 am

    Pretty soon men will have the human right to bear a child , once technology gets there.

    Womb transplants are at the current frontier of reproductive technology. The first successful birth to a woman who received a womb from a dead donor took place in Brazil in 2017. Prior to this, there had already been thirty-nine womb transplants using live donors, which resulted in eleven babies. These developments raise further questions, such as whether womb transplants may work for transwomen.

    https://areomagazine.com/2019/04/19/reproductive-rights-in-the-transhuman-future/

    I am more and more leaning to transhumanism as the next ethical horror show humanity faces .Technology has outstripped us, along with the benefits will come the dubious side effects that strip us of our humanity.

    • Sabine 17.1
      18 October 2021 at 8:27 am

      +1

      if they can replace a life women with a nice looking AI, body build to personal preference, controllable by the press of a button and they can incubate a child, women are 'obsolete' in the eyes of many.

      I do totally understand all the girls that opt out of the female gender construct and masculinize the heck out of their body and faces. It is a survival method.

      And considering that countries like China and India already have a male surplus, oh my the future is bright n rosy.

    • weka 17.2
      18 October 2021 at 3:46 pm

      I also think trans humanism is a massively big problem that hasn't quite arrived yet.

      Womb transplants into women is dodgy enough. Uterus implants into males is just fucking nuts. It's the peakiest of peaks of neoliberal, reductionist, the universe is a mechanical clock instead of something alive, disembodied, fuckwittery. As if growing another human being is done by a selection of parts. There's so much we don't even know yet about labour, oh nevermind, there's no vagina, just deliver by surgery.

      The motivations for doing uterine implants and wanting uterine implants need serious looking at. At this point, I say take the toys from the boys until they can behave themselves. I'll draw a direct line between the philosophies that are killing the planet and trans humanism.

  18. Sabine 18
    18 October 2021 at 8:32 am

    The one bit that i find interesting and that does not seem to be mentioned / talked about is the vehemence with which these new laws are pushed through, everywhere in the 'developped' world. Taiwan, Japan, all of EU europe, UK, North America etc. With the aid of Amnesty International, ACLU, and every lawmaker there is, the few that dare to speak up such s Rosie Duffield of the Labour Party in the UK are told to get CCTV cameras and prepare for abuse.

    This shows an organised approach across countries, money being poured down to many lawmakers, and groups of people. Where does that money come from?

  19. Castro 19
    18 October 2021 at 8:44 am

    Don't tell Frank "Get Off My Lawn Peasants, I'm Writing Footnotes" Macskasy 🙂

    • Anker 19.1
      18 October 2021 at 12:32 pm

      I saw Frank give his submission on I think it was sop 59. I was furious that he felt he could say it won't be an issue have male bodied people in change rooms because the place women are most unsafe is at home.

      Its not just about safety. Women don't want male bodied people in their spaces such as changing rooms because its very uncomfortable. Even the PM has spoken of a man trying to chat to her while she was buying lingerie and how uncomfortable that was. We all knew what she meant. Besides which do we really want male bodied. people around girls and teen girls while they are changing? I am amazed that this doesn't just stop this stuff right in its tracks.

      Has Frank Mc not heard of voyerism? flashing? frotterism? He

      • weka 19.1.1
        18 October 2021 at 3:49 pm

        I was furious that he felt he could say it won't be an issue have male bodied people in change rooms because the place women are most unsafe is at home.

        This argument is hugely problematic from men in particular (self-serving). Yes, most women who get sexually assaulted or beaten, are assaulted by people they know, often at home. But as you say, that's not the whole of what happens to women, and what about the women who get beaten and sexually assaulted in public places. Collateral damage.

  20. francesca 20
    18 October 2021 at 8:58 am

    https://4thwavenow.com/2018/05/25/the-open-society-foundations-the-transgender-movement/

    This gives an example of how money can amplify an issue

    In 2017, there was a widely publicised and observed Transgender day of remembrance.World wide in the year 2016-2017 there were 325 trans murders, mostly in Central and South America,3 in eastern Europe and none in the UK Nevertheless the Day of Remembrance in the UK was widely observed, with speakers , candles, flags and services, and over 2,800 web pages on university websites containing the phrase Transgender Day of Remembrance

    In that same year,138 women in the UK were murdered by men, as compiled by Femicide Census, which receives minimal funding.An equivalent search on University websites brings up less than 100 pages for FC , and there is no remembrance day for women

    This is what money can do

  21. Anker 21
    18 October 2021 at 10:29 am

    Yes it is interesting about the homicicde stats (although I feel horrible describing homicide stats as interesting). But homicide is a crime that isn’t contestable and will be reported.

    But the same is true of NZ. The last trans murder was in 2010 and happened in the context of a drug deal gone wrong.

    Stats of violence and rape are of course harder to quantify. But from my memory of court reports of assaults, rapes etc (and I realize this is not a good tool!) I don't recall any.

  22. Molly 22
    18 October 2021 at 4:20 pm

    Another example of – this is how you do it:

    Personal experiences posted on the GC Academic Network

    One from NZ:

    I'm a student at Massey University in New Zealand studying for a Graduate Diploma in Arts (Philosophy) by distance learning.

    In mid 2019 I booked a lecture theater on the Wellington Campus, to hold an event called Feminism 2020 that would have featured 4 women speakers talking about issues facing feminism in the coming decade, and featuring Meghan Murphy among others.

    When the event was announced there was a protest from the "queer" students group. Massey operations staff liaised with me about security arrangements but meanwhile were obtaining advice about the legality of cancelling the event. They refused to honour the terms of the agreement we had signed and said the event could not go ahead unless I signed a new form that allowed them to cancel any event if the deemed there was a health and safety reason to.

    The event was going to be held outside of term time, so students would not have been required to be on campus.

    To try to ensure that the event went ahead, since I had paid for travel and accommodation for the speakers, I signed the new form.

    Within days, Massey announced in the national media that they were cancelling the event. I found out because the Deputy Vice Chancellor let a message on my phone at the same time their press release went out announcing the cancellation, which they said was for the safety and wellbeing of trans and nonbinary students.

    I was part of a group collaborating on an antidiscrimination policy for the primary online forum for members of my field. They'd asked me to join because I was one of the few members from a non-Western background who chimed in, occasionally, on issues from a postcolonial theoretical background.

    At some point, I realised that "sex" wasn't listed as a protected characteristic even though both "gender identity" and "gender expression" were. I politely emailed the group to ask that we could add "sex" so that we were truly covering all bases that could be discriminated against.

    I was immediately met with an outpouring of rage from another member of the group, and accused of having some insidious agenda. I pointed out that I was simply trying to add, not erase, a protected characteristic and was told that sex didn't exist, that I should be happy to add any number of discrete charactersistics that are typical of the female sex instead, that I was contributing to a right wing movement that caused the deaths of trans people.

    When I pointed out how much sex does matter to female people globally, that universalising a specific experience within one country could do so much harm to the rest of us around the world and that this was erasing *our* reality, I was met with personal attacks and attacks on my country.

    It was baffling because I was simply asking for more inclusivity while this person was insistent on the erasure of my protected characteristic and was aggressive and abusive and yet all the senior members of my field sat back and did nothing. In fact, two female professors chimed in only to say they had no problem with sex being erased so I should just drop it.

    In the end I yielded to the group's decision and asked to be removed from the list. And I realised that my field was not open to input from female people, and completely disinterested in the experiences and viewpoints of those of us from outside a hegemonic Western viewpoint (though they would use buzzwords like "erasure" without any interrogation of their actual meaning). And I decided to finish my PhD (because of all the work I'd put into it) and then leave academia.

    I’m an history graduate student. I am Canadian. Before every single women-focused class, professors have to specify that the word "women" means female, and some students get triggered and sometimes complain. Professors are scared of losing their jobs and are walking on eggshells. As for me, I have to watch what I say online to not lose any job opportunities that could arise once I am done.

    The damage isn’t only social, it is also professional. I am quite sad that future historians will have to always verify the gender of some figures because they were completely transed by some online activists ( Alan Turing was said to be a transgender woman, same for Louis XIV’s brother, when they were both effeminate men who loved men). It is a waste of time.

    Also: how can you speak about historical female oppression and homophobia if you take sex out of the picture? It is impossible.

    • francesca 22.1
      18 October 2021 at 5:24 pm

      Jesus Molly , that was depressing.Half of the academic staff have convinced themselves through academic language that black is white, and the other half are running scared and playing along.

      Emperor/new clothes

      • Molly 22.1.1
        18 October 2021 at 5:38 pm

        Yes, it is.

        And thanks again for your links on this post. Just when I thought I'd kind of reached the bottom of the rabbit-hole and was equipped to deal with Wonderland, I find it plummeted into even darker depths.

        Feels like global gaslighting.

    • Sabine 22.2
      18 October 2021 at 5:34 pm

      how can you speak about historical female oppresion and homophobia?

      Well, simply put you don't and thus no discrimination. We women and people with a 'genital preference' simply don't exist. Mind, once they arrive at the doorstep of heterosexual men and demand that they drop their 'genital preference' this might chance.

      • Molly 22.2.1
        18 October 2021 at 5:44 pm

        Mind, once they arrive at the doorstep of heterosexual men and demand that they drop their 'genital preference' this might change.

        Yes. I've wondered how the heterosexual men would respond to the demand they are opposite gender attracted, or they are transphobic.

        Any of you reading care to tell us?

    • Puckish Rogue 22.3
      18 October 2021 at 6:49 pm

      Remember when Don Brash was cancelled, some on this site thought it was a great decision but they didn't think it might happen to something they support

      Always a damn shame when it happens

      • Molly 22.3.1
        18 October 2021 at 7:31 pm

        Can't remember that. But do remember thinking that Free Speech meant that objectionable opinions could be heard and then used again to counteract.

        It's an authoritarian approach that is ugly whether the voices stifled are left, right or in between.

        • Molly 22.3.1.1
          18 October 2021 at 7:44 pm

          I also seem to recall posting on the Lauren Southern booking at Auckland Council, saying there should be different rates for community groups and businesses, and that sounded like a business so should be charged business rates. (At least I hope that is what I thought and said.)

        • Puckish Rogue 22.3.1.2
          18 October 2021 at 10:19 pm

          100% agreed

      • Anker 22.3.2
        18 October 2021 at 7:36 pm

        I agree PR.

      • weka 22.3.3
        18 October 2021 at 8:09 pm

        What was Brash cancelled from?

      • Molly 22.3.4
        18 October 2021 at 8:11 pm

        There is a point of difference here though. (82% of the respondents on the article poll disagreed with the decision, so that's something.)

        It's not only de-platforming.

        There is harassment both on personal and professional levels, and institutional policing of language and group think. Some of the harassment is sexual or violent threats, and physical invasion of spaces.

  23. Anker 23
    18 October 2021 at 4:44 pm
    • Excuse the language but the f…Kers.

    it’s almost unthinkable this is happening

  24. Sabine 24
    18 October 2021 at 6:21 pm

    watch this. 🙂

    the women commenting on this is detrans and funny and smart and a lesbian with a genital preferance.

    • Molly 24.1
      18 October 2021 at 8:19 pm

      Gay conversion therapy 2021.

      • Sabine 24.1.1
        18 October 2021 at 8:42 pm

        this. is. what. this. is.

        So it will be a crime to pray the gay away, but it will be totally ok to castrate your gay child chemically via puberty blockers and then finish the job a few years later with an inverted penis vagina. Or in the case of the girls, sterilise them via puberty blockers and then remove the breasts and a quick hysto. Voila you are now a straight person. Unless they are actually straight and then have to find someone who is happy to be in a same 'gendered' relationship as a heterosexual person.

        Why? Because boys can't be feminine? have they heard of David Bowie? Elton John? Liberace? Freddy Mercury? Prince? And girls can't be butch? Can't be having a genital preference that does not involve a cock? It is so fucking sad what is done to these very young people.

  25. roblogic 25
    18 October 2021 at 6:41 pm

    Understandable that people initially have trouble believing women's stories of TRA shenanigans. The behaviour is so over the top. Not saying that gender crit feminists are perfect – they can be pretty obnoxious at times too. But they don't have this consistent pattern of violent sexualised threats, irrational protests, and online mob behaviour seeking to destroy the careers of academics.

    • Sabine 25.1
      18 October 2021 at 8:34 pm

      I think that people think of Laverne Cox, or the actor in 'orange is the new black' or even our own Georgian Beyer, and thus have a notion of what might be a transwomen. And thus they may not think any further then that and can not conceive as to why women would object. Enter a Laurel Hubbard and then the penny drops. Transwomen and their advocates come in all sizes and shapes and some are more feminized then others, some don't feminze at all and just be part time women like the Credit Suisse director Philip Bunce. And with any cult, and i think of this as a cult, the cult of the transhuman or the disembodied human, the acolytes are affirming each others by exhibiting the most outrageous behaviour to 'witch' and 'terf' the non consenters. .

      Again, i don't have an issue with Trans at all, have known a few, worked with some, hired one, and never had any issue with them that would cause me to dislike them. What i am drawing the line at is the Self ID and with it the rights to access single sex spaces. I have friends who are Muslima, and conservative Christians. Non would go into a mixed swimming pool, so usually would go either in a Ladies Pool (my hometown has segregated pools dating to 1890) or swim at ladies hours. This will be no longer possible for them in the future. I myself do not easily get undressed publicly at all, even in single sex spaces, so would find it equally impossible to go to a changing room without checking it out first. Just two very small issues that on the surface might be not even worth contemplating, and considering the submissions given and the contemptous attitude of the politicians holding these public submissions they don't seem to be considered at all, but will have a huge impact on the quality of life for the women and girls impacted. Ditto for males in female prisons, and males in female wards for hospitals. No. Just no. But, and we should make no mistakes about this, none of the politicians holding these hearings will ever end up in a shared room in hospitals nor will they ever go to prisons (they would be given home D should they break a law at the very best), nor will they ever need a public shared toilet facility, they will have the key to the executive suite, or the koru lounge. This issue will only affect the less then affluent.

    • felix 25.2
      19 October 2021 at 7:05 am

      "But they don't have this consistent pattern of violent sexualised threats"

      Of course they don't. Only men do that.

  26. Sabine 26
    19 October 2021 at 12:05 pm

    a bit lenghty but quite well done about the creation of the LBG Alliance in the UK to be a counterpart to the 2STLGBTQ++++++++ salad.

  27. francesca 27
    19 October 2021 at 1:14 pm

    Does this seem like China's cultural revolution all over again ?

    The wrong kind of gays and lesbians whose preferences are sex based not gender identity based..The very meaning of homosexual is being turned upside down to fit into trans ideology

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/oct/13/shadow-minister-criticises-kathleen-stock-for-being-lgb-alliance-trustee

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