Nicky Hager’s book launch

Written By: - Date published: 4:26 pm, March 21st, 2017 - 137 comments
Categories: journalism, Media - Tags:

A post to allow discussion on Nicky Hager’s book launch scheduled for 5 pm today.

The Daily Blog is stating that it will provide a live feed of the launch. TDB page is here.

Edit: And Campbell live will be there live as well.

Update tweets:

137 comments on “Nicky Hager’s book launch”

  1. weka 1

    Cinny, something to get you through the last 20 minutes,

    http://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/20-03-2017/nicky-hager-new-book-is-about/

  2. Carolyn_nth 2

    I now have a video connection and sound from a link in a Bradbury tweet

  3. Carolyn_nth 3

    “Hit and Run” co-authored with Jon Stephenson on NZ SAS in Afghanistan

    Insiders approached authors because not happy about what was happening. Serious breaches of international law and war crimes.

  4. Tory 5

    Fuck, I felt the whoosh of deflated hot air here in the South Island from the disciples of Prune Face.
    SAS blowing away a few “deleted” (apparently..), medal terrority not book terrority.

    [banned until 1 month after the election. You’ve been warned by at least two moderators recently to stop the trolling/faming. I can’t see the point of you being here, so you’re out until later in the year – weka]

    [If you come back after that time and can’t get access, it’s because Weka’s agreed to my request that a further six months gets added for your base racism] – Bill

    [agreed – weka]

    • mickysavage 5.1

      Man you need to get a soul. Kiwi soldiers killing women and children against orders? The allegation is awful.

      • James 5.1.1

        Well – I guess the proof will be in the charges against the people involved.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 5.1.1.1

          So if no charges are laid it didn’t happen?

          No James: in the event that charges are laid. the proof, if any, will come in the verdicts.

          In the event that Dear Leader finds himself in the dock, I’m picking he’ll claim he was just a patsy.

          • james 5.1.1.1.1

            You are correct – the proof will come in verdicts.

            And if charges do not happen – then there is insufficient proof to back up the accusations Hager is making.

            • mickysavage 5.1.1.1.1.1

              Cant you do better than this? Failing to pin a war crime on an individual is not the same thing as the war crime not existing.

              • james

                Dont get me wrong.

                If he committed war crimes – then 100% I would be behind him being charged and held accountable.

                I have zero issue with that at all.

                What Im saying is that it needs to be proven before Hagars book is taken as fact.

                • weka

                  I don’t take Hager’s work as fact, I take it as evidence. It’s not his job to determine what crimes the govt committed, that’s for an inquiry. Hager’s job is to raise the questions backed up with good evidence, so that we can have a public debate about how our govt is functioning and for people in power to then be prompted to do the right things.

                  • bwaghorn

                    ”that’s for an inquiry” a national led inquiry is not something i would have any faith in

    • Cinny 5.2

      Umm no, the SAS injured and killed civilians including a school teacher under the order of John Key. According to what I’m listening too.

    • adam 5.3

      weka, I appreciate why you banned Tory, but can I make a case for it being longer.

      He comment was designed to dehumanize people. We have been down that road before – it was called the Eugenics movement. It’s final solution was the ‘final solution’. I don’t see how Tory’s comment is not in that tradition, which is one step away from killing people just because they are different.

      • weka 5.3.1

        Yep. It’s one of the worst comments I’ve seen in a long time. Sometimes moderation happens quickly, so I just went with the current standard (it was pretty easy to ban them for flaming). I did consider a permanent ban but was in a hurry (permanent bans IMO need more time e.g. looking at the commenter’s history, comments and past bans), as well as considering that in the context of the kaupapa of the site (esp not just banning people we find reprehensible). We need a better system in the back end for keeping track of moderations (I had a quick look, but didn’t have time to go into it too deeply).

        • weka 5.3.1.1

          If they had made an actual non-flamming argument for killing Afghan civilians, they probably wouldn’t have gotten a ban, as fucked up as I would find that kind of comment. But this particular comment was designed to cause a shit storm in the thread. We just don’t need people who do that esp in such sensitive subjects. As you say, it’s dehumanising (the whole comment was in fact).

          In terms of eugenics, I tend to agree, but as a moderator I’d need to see either a pattern of advocating that by implication or an explicit statement beyond the racism they posted today. Other moderators might see it differently.

          • adam 5.3.1.1.1

            Thanks weka, good to hear your thoughts on it.

            • gsays 5.3.1.1.1.1

              I would rather never hear from the likes of Tory again in our standard community.

              I enjoy and grow from having my beliefs challenged but the contribution Tory makes often lowers the tone.

              There are other sites for Tory to go.

              Apologies to Tory, in respect to you not having a right of reply to this.

              • weka

                He’s had 6 months added to the ban by Bill. I’m going to have a think about how to better track the problematic commenters over time.

  5. Cinny 7

    Media summary sheet, copy/pasted via Stuff website..

    This is a sheet of media commentary, prepared by Hager’s team.

    It’s headlined: Denials made to the media about civilian deaths (2010 – 2014)

    ISAF Joint Command: “No civilians were injured or killed during this operation”

    – ‘Numerous insurgents killed and weapons recovered’, news release 2010-08- CA-266, 23 August 2010, Kabul, Afghanistan.

    New Zealand Defence Force: “Following the operation allegations of civilian casualties were made. These were investigated by a joint Afghan Ministry of Defence, Ministry of Interior and International Security Assistance Force assessment team, in accordance with ISAF procedures. The investigation concluded that the allegations of civilian casualties were unfounded”

    – ‘NZ Defence Force operations in Bamiyan on 22 August 2010’, media release, 20 April 2011.

    Defence minister Wayne Mapp: “That’s been investigated and proven to be false…. I am satisfied around that”

    – Wayne Mapp asked about civilian casualties, Q+A, Television New Zealand, 24 April 2011.

    John Key: “My understanding is that after a thorough review of the CDF [Chief of Defence Force] at the weekend, he is very confident that the New Zealand Defence Force version of events is correct…. They say there were insurgents that were killed, but that was it”

    – John Key on TV3 Firstline, 1 July 2014.

    The New Zealand Defence Force: “The NZDF stands by its statement made on 20 April 2011 [above] and will not be making further comment.”

    – New Zealand Defence Force, statement to Maori Television Service, 30 June 2014.

    Defence minister Jonathan Coleman: “What I would emphasise is New Zealanders were not involved – and that’s categorical – in any civilian casualties or deaths”

    – Jonathan Coleman in Stacey Kirk, ‘Categorical: ‘NZ troops did not kill civilians’, Stuff, 1 July 2014.

    Defence minister Jonathan Coleman asked by reporters if coalition forces had killed civilians during the raid: “There is no evidence that they did.”

    – Jonathan Coleman, New Zealand Herald, 1 July 2014.

    John Key: “We don’t discuss the detail of SAS operations, but what we do say categorically is that no New Zealand soldier was involved in killing civilians”

    – John Key in Ripeka Timutimu, ‘Key denies SAS involvement in civilian deaths in Afghanistan’,

    Maori Television Service, 1 July 2014.

    • Carolyn_nth 7.1

      John Key on checkpoint tonight was asked about why he left politics. He muttered something dismissive about Hager, then said, “Nah, there are no scandals.”

      • tc 7.1.1

        Shonky will play the egpytian fish routine till hes no longer around.

        Epgytian fish = living in denial

    • DoublePlusGood 7.2

      Something tells me Wayne Mapp might just be veeerry quiet for a while.

      • Carolyn_nth 7.2.1

        Tim Watkin is tweeting Mapp’s response to Guyon:

        GUYON … that contains a claim that a number of civilians were killed….
        DR MAPP And that’s been investigated and proven to be false.

        Wheels falling of lack of accountability of the government in military and intelligence matters.

      • Anne 7.2.2

        Actually DoublePlusGood both Nicky Hager and Jon Stephenson have been highly complimentary towards Wayne Mapp so you might like to retract that comment. Both of them iterated that he is the one who comes out of it best of all. He is unlikely to have been told the full truth but what he did know made him very uneasy and he expressed his unease it at the time.

        • DoublePlusGood 7.2.2.1

          Nope, don’t want to retract the comment. He’s still solid, triple-distilled bollocks.

        • b waghorn 7.2.2.2

          If he was uneasy what measures other than looking away did he take.

          • Anne 7.2.2.2.1

            If he was not advised of the full truth then there was not a lot he could do.

            Wayne is a lawyer by profession. He needs to read the book before he makes any further comments.

            • bwaghorn 7.2.2.2.1.1

              of course there was , he could have asked questions ,

              • Anne

                Maybe he did bwaghorn but didn’t get proper answers. It’s going to be interesting to see how he eventually responds to the story. One thing is for sure, he’s a cut above that ignorant woman, Paula Bennett who shot her mouth off this morning. Think we might agree on that. 🙂

    • mosa 7.3

      Great work Cinny.

  6. Ties in nicely with this :

    And here we are like trusting sheep.

    Email Isaac
    @Isaac_Davison
    Isaac Davison Isaac Davison is a NZ Herald political reporter.
    Spying reforms allowing GCSB to spy on NZers pass into law with little opposition

    4:36 PM Tuesday Mar 21, 2017

  7. Hmmmm….

    Given the green light by the same man who screamed …

    ” GET SOME GUTS”

    In OUR parliament.

  8. NZJester 10

    So that is why John key is making a run out of NZ to avoid scrutiny over war crimes committed during an operation he signed off on?

    • And hooking himself up with a Japanese billionaire philanthropist… more slimy PR moves from the ” Get some Guts” character.

      And to think NZ tolerated that slimeball for 8 years.

    • Cinny 10.2

      Authors were asked if it made any bearing on Keys decision to leave early. Hager and Jon said, no, not necessarily.

      They’ve been planning the book for some time

      • WILD KATIPO 10.2.1

        According to Winston Peters , – it has to do with ‘ administration and accountability issues’ , which will be coming out in the following ‘ weeks and months ‘.

        ———————————————————-

        With this mentioned in The Standard…

        Key’s 4th term – something doesn’t add up
        Written By: NATWATCH – Date published: 6:49 am, December 6th, 2016 – 144 comments
        Categories: john key, kremlinology – Tags: 4th term, rumour, rumours, The Daily Blog

        ‘Bradbury is running rumours with talk of a “damning book”. If it is true (as unlikely as that seems) then despite Key’s resignation there will be further damage to National.’

  9. Cinny 11

    Really enjoying listening to the media conference via Bombers stream, so much better than bullshit mainstream media soundbites.

  10. SpaceMonkey 12

    Wow… oh wow!! Reading Felix Gerringer’s twitter feed:

    Is this why John Key went…? Personally ordered the raid… deliberate targeting of civilian houses… handing over of a caught insurgent to Afghani’s who tortured him… isn’t this war crimes territory?

    • Carolyn_nth 12.1

      Though some tweets are saying there’s things in the book that the PM didn’t know at the time of the nasty raid.

      • mickysavage 12.1.1

        The bigger issue may be what happened afterwards. What did they know and how did they respond?

        • greg 12.1.1.1

          national only now one course of action that is cover up.i cant see the government wanting to talk or do anything about this issue. i fact national party voters will approve of war crimes.they will say these things happen in war and that will be the end of the matter.there will be no investigations as to do so would embarrass the government and by extension new Zealand so it wont happen.

          • In Vino 12.1.1.1.1

            Depressingly correct, I fear, Greg. Later may come laws to prevent the publication of such books. They are clamping down on whistle-blowers…

      • Right, but that’s not the relevant bit as far as Key is concerned. If he knew afterwards and aided in a cover up, that’s a huge deal.

        There are at least three relevant allegations of war crimes from the book. If Key ordered the houses destroyed, that’s straight up a war crime on his account.

  11. tc 13

    Thanks again nicky hager.

  12. Muttonbird 14

    The authors are currently telling media that Wayne Mapp was personally uncomfortable as the details started to emerge to relevant Ministers.
    He was defence minister at the time.

    -Stacey Kirk

    What does our own Wayne have to say about this? Is it why Wayne retired? Is this incident why Key quit?

    • mickysavage 14.1

      I have some respect for Wayne. He always appealed to me as being a good old fashioned tory as opposed to the neo liberal sorts. His response will be interesting.

      • Muttonbird 14.1.1

        Agreed. The fact he posts here suggests he is at least interested in the concerns of the socially conscious left, and that marries perhaps with his discomfort about the raid.

      • If he has half a brain, he won’t respond and will be consulting a lawyer before he so much as opens his mouth on the issue in public if he had any involvement in the issue.

        If he didn’t touch the coverup as Minister (and given JK authorised it, that’s certainly possible) and his misgivings led to or contributed to his retirement though, that deserves a measure of respect. 🙂

        • mickysavage 14.1.2.1

          The first response a lawyer friend had when I mentioned this to her was “war crime”

          • Matthew Whitehead 14.1.2.1.1

            Yep, if the allegations are all true, then it’s a war crime for targetting civilians without a military purpose, a warcrime for destroying their houses w/o a military purpose, a warcrime for not rendering medical assistance when it was practical, and a warcrime again for anyone who was involved in covering it up.

            And then something of a retroactive constitutional issue for appointing a war criminal to GG, which makes the idea of voting for a President look positively appealing.

            • veutoviper 14.1.2.1.1.1

              +111111111 etc

            • greg 14.1.2.1.1.2

              could key be charged by the ICC at the Hague

              • Rightly or Wrongly

                Hmm are you thinking that Key not only gave authority for the raid to commence but specifically ordered the SAS to target civilians?

                Not far off the baby eating rumours floating around in relation to Key.

                For me the only way this could be considered a war crime is if the SAS soldiers deliberately targeted and killed civilian non combatants after recognizing them as such.

                If they were caught in the cross fire or were deaths that followed faulty intelligence then that is very sad but are the facts of life in conditions of war. (All wars have deaths of civilians – it is why war is such an evil undertaking and should not be entered into lightly by any nation.)

                The other question is how do you distinguish between combatants and civilians when they wear the same clothing, and a close inspection may result in a suicide vest going off?

                Pretty easy for keyboard warriors to get their steam up about what should or shouldn’t be done in the conflict and fog of war however until you have been in that pressure cooker situations I suggest suspending judgement until actual facts/verdicts are proven.

                Until then it is just innuendo and I suspect will not go down well with the NZ public especially with Anzac day not far away.

                • You’re a little off on the responsibility there- soldiers are supposed to have positively identified the enemy before they engage. If they don’t know they’re dealing with an enemy combatant, they’re obliged not to attack, as all civilians are innocent by default.

                  Fog of war and accidents can absolutely happen, and those are tragedies that don’t meet the definition of warcrimes, but do sometimes involve negligence.

                  However, I know enough about the allegations in the book to know that they say that there was confirmation the supposed targets of the raid were in a different location- in which case, there would have been no reason to engage, and somebody should have put the facts together and called off the operation if it was green-lighted due to a mistake.

              • That’s a way off yet. All we know about key’s complicity is that he ordered the raid. Previous independent investigations apparently cleared the raid of civilian casualties, (although I’m not sure how credible that is given that the info in coming from the defense force) and even if events occured as Hager’s and Stephenson’s sources lay out, it would depend on what information was made available to Key before the raid. If he knew that the civilians hadn’t been positively identified as insurgents, or OKed destroying their houses despite no military justification, then yes, he could be taken to the ICC. If he colluded to clear the military during the investigation, he could also go to the ICC, as it’s the responsibility to ensure that allegations of warcrimes are fairly investigated.

                But that’s a long ways off yet. All this is is a collection of personal accounts at this stage- a proper investigation needs to be done with the info from those accounts, and independent of the military and the government, to clear everyone involved, unless there’s something in the book that nobody’s talking about on twitter yet.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 14.1.2.2

          If he has half a brain, he won’t respond and will be consulting a lawyer before he so much as opens his mouth on the issue in public if he had any involvement in the issue.

          That’s one way to go. On the other hand, he’s a law commissioner and is likely to be asked the question.

          Front foot forward. Personal responsibility. Money, meet mouth, that sort of thing.

          • Carolyn_nth 14.1.2.2.1

            Hager said on Checkpoint, he’s not calling it a war crime. Their advice is that there is the “strong grounds to suspect” war crimes were committed.

          • Matthew Whitehead 14.1.2.2.2

            Nope, nope, nope.

            I know it’s not enshrined into NZ law the same way it is into US law which we probably have all seen more about on TV, and we have some weird exemptions to it, but you’re not normally required to incriminate yourself.

            If he’s not subject to one of the exemptions, he should absolutely keep his mouth shut, even if he’s sure he’s 100% innocent of any possible war crimes or conspiracy to cover them up, because if it actually goes to court, even seemingly unrelated statements can get you into trouble, and even for law experts it can be hard to stay objective and actually talk about only the things you really need to. Even lawyers need a lawyer sometimes to make sure their emotions aren’t getting in the way.

            And even right-wingers and public figures are entitled to shut up to the maximum extent the law allows in order to mount a more effective legal defense.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 14.1.3

        Wayne? I expect he was gutted. It’s an occupational hazard I suppose but then who’d want John Key as a boss?

        Lie with fleas, get up with dogs.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 14.1.3.1

          Speaking of lying down with fleas: whose “intelligence” was this war crime based on?

      • Anne 14.1.4

        Agreed mickysavage @ 14.1. The fact he comes here to argue issues with us is worthy of respect especially as we give him a hard time. He was a respected MP on the Shore even if his political views were not universally shared by his constituents.

      • WILD KATIPO 14.1.5

        mickysavage 14.1
        21 March 2017 at 5:57 pm
        I have some respect for Wayne. He always appealed to me as being a good old fashioned tory as opposed to the neo liberal sorts. His response will be interesting.

        —————————————
        So was Muldoon a ‘ good old fashioned tory ‘ , – but at least he didn’t defer to neo liberalism.

        And indeed, … his response WILL be interesting.

        • Barfly 14.1.5.1

          Muldoon? Yeah I believe he actually cared about the ordinary person. (personal opinion)

      • lprent 14.1.6

        Agreed.

        I am virtually amazed at his ability to withstand some of the barracking he gets here. Including from me (mind you I eventually do that to everyone 👽 ). I suspect that he has a high sense of duty quite unlike many of the self serving idiots who make up our parliamentary right. Simon Bridges comes to mind..

        • weka 14.1.6.1

          He’s one of the few RWers here who doesn’t troll and instead makes his arguments pretty much every time. That gets my respect too.

        • mickysavage 14.1.6.2

          Tim Watkins thinks that Wayne struggled answering questions about the event …

          http://www.pundit.co.nz/content/the-odonnell-raid-in-afghanistan-the-seeds-of-the-new-hager-book

          Watkin’s comments:

          “I’ve since spoken to Mapp about that interivew. Despite the rants of some genuine conspiracy theorists, the interview wasn’t a negotiated deal where Mapp could reveal the raid in his own way. He was blindsided by the question about the raid.

          The way he described it to me, he knew he had two seconds to decide whether to confirm New Zealand’s involvement, thereby revealing operational matters he would have had no desire to reveal, or try to dodge, evade or even lie.

          In those seconds, he chose transparency. He didn’t want to lie to the public and, he figured, we probably had more knowledge and sources than we were initially revealing. He was wrong on that front. We were flying a kite.

          You can see in the transcript that he tries at first to deflect Espiner’s questions, saying “operations do take place”. But ultimately decides to not deny SAS involvement, thus implying it played a role.

          But in the context of Hager and Stephenson’s claims that the raid went horribly wrong, no insurgents were found and 16 villagers were injured and five killed, the rest of his answers are important:”

          The Transcript:

          “GUYON There’s an Associated Press report around that time that contains a claim that a number of civilians were killed during that operation.

          DR MAPP And that’s been investigated and proven to be false.

          GUYON So no civilians were killed in that? You’re satisfied about that? You’ve seen some reports on it?

          DR MAPP I am satisfied around that.

          GUYON Only insurgents were killed in that operation?

          DR MAPP I am satisfied around that.”

          • Carolyn_nth 14.1.6.2.1

            So Mapp is saying he was satisfied with the joint Afghan Defense Ministry and ISAF (Nato, with strong US presence) report that said no civilians were killed.

            But, he’s kinda trying not to say he agrees there were no civilians killed – just that he’s satisfied around that report.

            And there were apparently US gun ships that participated in the raid/s. So how unbiased was the ADM and ISAF report?

            And the Afghan government and the ISAF actually approved, and participated in, the operation, and then did the investigation that concluded no civilians were killed.

  13. ropata 15

    According to this tweet, there is a website being set up at http://www.hitandrunnz.com and a new twitter handle @hitandrunnz .

  14. mary_a 16

    As NZ PM at the time, John Key ordered the raid.

    Three months ago he walked.

    Now it will be interesting to see what msm has to say about their golden boy! Impossible to gloss over this one! Any attempt to do so, will be seen as justifying crimes against humanity!

  15. adam 17

    Looking forward to Wayne’s comments…

  16. Paul Campbell 18

    A Governor General is supposed to be a neutral participant in our political process, one who can be the last line of defence against an out of control government.

    Instead we have our PM making someone he knew had secretly been involved in a war crime GG – the government is not supposed to put a GG in place that they have something on – that’s just plain wrong

    • Apparently not for this govt : Someones been sitting on this for a long, long time indeed.

      And not one of them spoke up.

      Including Wayne.

    • Paul Campbell 18.2

      I’m reminded that Key made him head of the GCSB too

    • Don't worry. Be happy 18.3

      Key had to have been told/heard what happened….and then he tapped Gerry to be Gov Gen. Horrifying.

      • Anne 18.3.1

        … he tapped Gerry to be Gov Gen. Horrifying.

        Well, he appointed Gerry Mateparae to be head of the GCSB but less than a year later, the Kim Dotcom saga reared its ugly head. Key had a sudden change of heart and cajoled his former school mate, Ian Fletcher – who just so happened to be a copyright expert – to come back to NZ and head the GCSB. He then compensated Mateparae by making him GG.

      • Paul Campbell 18.3.2

        As I understand what’s being said it was Key personally who OKed the revenge raid – of course he knew

  17. Steve Alfreds 19

    Wayne, Wayne, where art thou Wayne? NZ’s highest paid right wing troll must have something to add.

    • millsy 19.1

      Just because Mapp is a Tory, doesnt mean he is stupid. He is probably under advise from a lawyer to keep his mouth (and laptop) shut for the interim.

  18. chris73 20

    So much ado about nothing then or rather nothing that the majority of voters will worry about

    Same old same old

    • Carolyn_nth 20.1

      So it’s all about the voters, and not the ethics of a raid that did serious damage to civilians and their community?

      • chris73 20.1.1

        Alleged raid that did serious damage to civilians and their community

        • bwaghorn 20.1.1.1

          umm no one is saying the raid didn’t happen , go back to the mine dopey dwarf

          • chris73 20.1.1.1.1

            I’ll take what Hager says with a massive grain of salt if its all the same

            • greywarshark 20.1.1.1.1.1

              chris 73
              I think that acts as a laxative so watch the size of those grains. Don’t wat to spill your guts out. That’s for people in a war to cope with, not for NZs.

              Oh – yes – well….

            • AB 20.1.1.1.1.2

              Well-known phenomenon – as a right-winger’s worldview and ideology collapse due to the weight of evidence, they just double-down and believe it even more ferociously.

          • bwaghorn 20.1.1.2.1

            oh wayne mapp ‘ he’s just a massive left wing conspiracy theorist

          • mauī 20.1.1.2.2

            That’s an interesting interview. I was of the understanding that New Zealand was in a peace keeping role in Afghanistan, hence the Provincial Reconstruction Team. But what he seems to be saying is to keep the peace keepers safe you have to go on the attack every now and then. Not really peace keeping then is it.

        • ianmac 20.1.1.3

          I’m with Chris. Pony tail pulling was just an allegation. It never happened. The dead civilians were not really dead. Playing possum and anyway we just cannot believe anything that Hager or Stephenson says. I have no idea why not. Just don’t believe.
          Like my mate Chris.

        • Paul Campbell 20.1.1.4

          The attack’s existence is not in question, it’s not an “alleged raid” there’s contemporary evidence that it occurred:

          http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4911922/SAS-attack-not-revenge-killing-Mapp

          What is being alleged is that what really happened was covered up by the SAS, and their chain of command all the way up to John Key – who personally OKed the deadly raid on civilians, old men and children.

      • SpaceMonkey 20.1.2

        Unfortunately, and it sickens me, there are many who will think exactly that. In fact it may barely register with many voters. Focus groups are probably being run right now. In parallel the lawyers will be doing well. It will be interesting to see what old lines get rolled out.

        This needs a full independent inquiry to investigate the evidence but I can’t see that happening. The Nats will be ducking and diving and Key will be off out if the country. Effectively into exile… where he’s happier anyway.

    • Pete 20.2

      Why should everything that happens be about ‘majority of voters’? Why should everything Hager says, does or write be expected to influence voting? Why do you give him that power or expect him to have it?

  19. ianmac 21

    Funny how the Right Wing advocates automatically rubbish such evidence. Must be wired accordingly.

  20. Tui 22

    shocking! innocent women killed and shonkey does a runner!

    ~ Tui

    • AB 22.1

      “Akshully there’s a whole range of factors and t’s not clear that anyone who might of (sic) been innocent at the time possibly or not in the future depending on circumstances and how you factor in those considerations of a NZ soldier probably being killed eventually some time in the past and there were terrorists involved in that without doubt, so I’m comfortable overall with what happened operationally-wise in that context ongoing and Nicky Hager is a screaming left wing conspiracy theorist”

  21. Anne 23

    The ABC is leading with the story:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-21/women-children-killed-raid-afghanistan-nz-sas-book/8373958

    In Australia, the Inspector General of the Australian Defence Force is conducting an investigation into the culture of Australian special forces units, including allegations of unlawful killings in Afghanistan.

    So, if Australia are conducting an investigation then what excuse have the NZ authorities got to NOT have an investigation?

    • SpaceMonkey 23.1

      That John Key might come our of this looking like some wild west sheriff…? Golden boy’s got some heavy hitting friends… and NZ hasn’t been governed like a nation for the past 9 years. He’ll get his protection

    • Kendoll 23.2

      Wayne where are you, your friends are looking like the shit bags they have always been..remember Gallipoli and the hotels….

    • Carolyn_nth 23.3

      On RNZ tonight, NZDF says, nah, civilian casualties didn’t happen

      The New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) said in a statement that it stood by its April 2011 statement that an investigation found civilian casualty allegations were unfounded.

      Newshub has full NZDF statement.

      Says inquiry was done by Afghan Ministry of Defense and the International Security Assistance Force. The latter is a NATO thing.

      The US made up more than half the troops in the ISDF. And apparently the book says US gunships participated in the raid.

      • Carolyn_nth 23.3.1

        Should be ISAF at the end

      • Anne 23.3.2

        The Defence Force relied on the Afghan Ministry of Defence?

        What about the 30 NZ Defence Force personnel, who either took part in the raid or were privy to what occurred, and who told Nicky Hager and Jon Stephenson what really happened? Nah… they’re all tellin lies matey, cos we’re the brass and we know everything.

        As one former NZ Prime Minister said to me in the mid 1990s (passed this mortal coil some time ago) “the Army isn’t known for its cerebral qualities”.

        • Carolyn_nth 23.3.2.1

          Well reports a few years back, and of the content of the Hit and Run book, say the Afghan forces and the ISAF (with US gun ships) were involved in the raid.

          ABC News (Aussie) reports tonight:

          They say New Zealand SAS troops, backed by US helicopters and Afghan commandos, attacked two villages.

          Twenty-one people were killed or wounded, most of whom were women and children. No insurgents were killed.

          The book suggests most were killed by the US helicopter gun ships, but that some of the bodies showed signs that they might have been killed by New Zealand snipers in the hills around the villages.

    • mickysavage 23.4

      Good to see the right wing of the labour party agree this is a major issue 🙂

    • mosa 23.5

      Anne the only way we will get an investigation and a proper one in the shape of a royal commision of enquiry is if the public are outraged and sickened enough to bring pressure to bear and demand answers.

      If we can get angry about water then we should be outraged that this was sanctioned by this government and then covered up.

      What the hell is happening to our country and its reputation!

      It makes a mockery of our whole peacekeeping role and will make their job even harder.

  22. AB 24

    Key has shredded whatever remnants of a reputation NZ had as an ‘honest broker’ in world affairs. Though I guess we always knew in our heart of hearts that such a reputation was undeserved bollocks. But it was possible to half-believe it when Holyoake sent only a token force to Vietnam or Clark stayed out of the Iraq invasion. Key didn’t even pretend – “get some guts!”

  23. “Yes, John Key is a fucking war criminal. And he made one of his co-conspirators in those war crimes Governor-General.

    These people need to go to jail. All of them. We should not tolerate war crimes by our defence forces, and we should not tolerate the authorisation of war crimes by our politicians.”

    http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/2017/03/war-criminals-must-be-punished.html

    • James 25.1

      So there was an inquiry was done by Afghan Ministry of Defense and the International Security Assistance Force.

      But Hager writes a book with unnamed sources and you believe that holds more credibility without even having read it.

      Edit – sorry just saw it was nrt

      • In Vino 25.1.1

        James – if you really believe that the Afghan Ministry of Defense and the International Security Assistance Force are anything like independent, you are barking mad.
        Stories like this do not emerge because they are maliciously made up. Or are you a Conspiracy Theorist?

        Of course, Nicky Hager is a conspiracy theorist, and you yourself are the same in accusing him of being so. (Just quoting John Key about Hager, but surprised at your reluctance to believe what really happens in the utter cock-ups of war.
        Are you really so naïve?)

      • Drowsy M. Kram 25.1.2

        If you read the book James, and then stand by your assessment, fine.

        Until you read the book, it is your opinions that will lack credibility.

        I will read the book, and that will inform my opinion. Hager’s record of evidence-based journalism is a strong one. I’m just grateful that he had the guts to stand up to recent police intimidation. Not sure I could have done the same.

        Nicky Hager is, in my opinion, an excellent investigative journalist. And an admirable human being – NZ could do with more of those, don’t you agree?

        • Anne 25.1.2.1

          James will not read the book. Neither will the other rwnjs who frequent this site. To begin with, its probably too much for them to absorb and they don’t want to be rocked out of their little rwnj cocoons.

          Nice comment DM. Kram.

        • james 25.1.2.2

          As will all opinions until they have read the book – but I do not see people questioning anyone who agrees with hager despite also not having read the book.

          And all Im doing is taking the results of the investigations that have already happened. Which have credibility also.

  24. Cynical jester 26

    Nat bots out in force on twitter! A war crime is no big deal apparently!! Sure hope Crosby Textor has told Bill English his opinion on this or we’ll be waiting months for a response.

    Nek minut Benny Bashing from the government in 3…. 2….

    • lprent 26.1

      So long as they keep their inane and rather stupid mobbing habits away from here. It is always a bit too much work being bothered explaining why their behaviour is unacceptable, and banning them.

      I would revert to just banning idiot sheep trying to troll.

  25. millsy 27

    Here is me thinking that Bomber was full of shit regarding books.

  26. the pigman 28

    The sudden outpouring of respect and admiration for the great dyslexic denier (and let us not forget, self-appointed Minister for the Elimination of Political Correctness, a role in which he may have just outdone himself), Wayne Mapp, in response to this odious cover-up is utterly baffling.

    John Key, Wayne Mapp, “Jerry” Mateparae — this is for you:

    Time to “gessumgutsss” as your dear leader was fond of frothing, and come and explain yourselves.

  27. Tamati Tautuhi 29

    I had a grandfather who fought at Passchendaele in WW1, Belgium, in 1917, the Otago Regiments lost 90% of their troops in half (1/2) hour cut down by German machine guns as the wire protection hadn’t been cut, and the NZ forces were also being shelled by the British forces as they couldn’t get their shell launchers and horses forward because of the mud and the terrible ground conditions.

    This slaughter was hidden from the General Public until NZ Military Historians have highlighted the event in the past 20 years, it is still a widely unknown event from WW1 History, maybe it will come out later this year as it is the 100 year anniversary this
    year ?

  28. Cinny 30

    It’s been hard for me to digest this. I knew I would be shocked, but was not prepared to be so upset. Looking at the website last night, seeing the faces of the innocents, now dead, thinking about what if was my family, my child, my husband, really upset me.

    Ex husband is ex military, am well away of ‘the code’ between military personnel, so am not one bit surprised that NZDF are flat out denying this and no doubt will continue to do so, such is their way, and such is the way of the ex PM.

    NZDF have done their own investigation…. investigating themselves, what a joke.

    Really appreciate all the work that Nicky and Jon have put into this, thank you for being honest and informing the public about what has happened, the story was needed to be told.

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