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Open mike 01/07/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 1st, 2021 - 137 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

137 comments on “Open mike 01/07/2021 ”

  1. Herodotus 1

    perhaps we have this road block on finding out how the reserve bank and treasury operate is due to the failings of the government in how property prices are going up 8% per month. Thank you government for yet again hiding behind process to keep us in the dark.

    [e-mail address corrected]

    • Jimmy 1.1

      The Nats and Greens don't agree on much so this will be interesting. I do find it hard to believe that house prices grew 17.3% last year and treasury expect hem to increase by just 0.9% between 2021 and 2022!!!!!

      They seem a bit hesitant to release how they came up with that. Personally, due to the lack of supply and not enough builders / supplies, I believe houses will still increase this year (but not by as much as 17%).

      • Herodotus 1.1.1

        Having some work history in the industry I have been advised that concrete and its associated industries (eg pipes ) are follong a 6-12% increase at the beginning of the year and have notified clients of a similar price increase in July. Land in a development close by have increased their prices from the last stage to the current release by 20%+. So the building industry is entrenching pricing increases based on the current housing market surge. I await an announcement that the Kiwibuild ceilings will increase as a consequence.

        what was a kiwi dream of owning your own house and then benefits for society that came with that has been demolished. Eg children having stability by going to 1 school not moving around as the family moves from 1 rented place to the next, and the upheaval that moving causes.

        • tc

          Tradies getting emails about increases reckon it's been out of control since we emerged from first national lockdown.

        • Jimmy

          Timber is also increasing in price and builders and other tradies are run off their feet.

        • RosieLee

          Not to mention the fact that NZers always aspired to owning their own home for security in their old age. It was never about "mum and dad investors" or "getting on the property ladder" . I find this whole discourse deeply offensive.

      • Foreign Waka 1.1.2

        That number will be a peg in the ground for inflationary pressures. With rates, shipping imports, farm supplies, insurance etc. etc… the average person will have to cope with some steep increases in living costs. Any wage adjustment will feel like a step forward and 2 back.

  2. NOEL 2

    Can someone explain. The new hate speech proposals add more society identies to the previous list to protect them.Does that mean for others in society who are no on the list they will not be subject to hate speech?

  3. Sabine 3

    Well its good business practice to wait will invoicing for 43 days (on average), right?

    While the ministry has collected $50 million to date, with at least 67 per cent of returnees paying on time, the documents reveal the ministry expected debt collectors would be needed for 40 per cent of returnees.

    A document from April shows invoices were being sent an average of 43 days after the person's stay.

    In addition, 14,197 invoices have not been sent out at all – that's 23 per cent of returnees – because the ministry hasn't been able to confirm their contact details, or if they are liable to pay

    Maybe the government should have tasked the receptionists of the hotels to invoice right before the guys depart the plague hotel. Like, here kind Sir and Lady, t'is your due for bed and feed. Thanks muchly and kindly, and please pay here, hands eftpos machine. 🙂

    But no, its to hard, to complicated to hire someone who is actually skilled in handling people a bill for staying at a hotel.

    In the documents, the ministry said people's personal details, travel dates, room allocation and contact details needed to be pulled from different sources, which takes "substantial manual processing and review".


    • Jimmy 3.1

      The saying "piss up in a brewery" comes to mind.

      Surely after the 14 days stay, they have to check out.

      Hotel staff: "Good morning Sir, Madam, checking out this morning?"

      Returnee: "Yes thank you".

      Hotel staff: hands EFTPOS machine across counter with invoice. "Here is your invoice, have you enjoyed your stay?"

      Returnee: "Yes / no thank you etc." and presents EFTPOS card.

      I guess the hotel is being or been paid by the government so they are happy, and as usual, government is sloppy as it's only tax payer funds.

      • Sanctuary 3.1.1

        I don't believe there was any real intention to enforce payment. Rightly, it has been determined that this sort of nit picking secondary function will never be allowed to interfere with the public health primary objective of MIQ.

        The whole charging regime was a sop to a reactionary media.

        The success of our covid response is testimony to the wisdom of not allowing the media set the public health agenda.

        • Sabine

          The media is simply reporting that the government is not enforcing its own rules.

          Pray tell what the medias 'agenda' is? Or is it now verboten for the Media to report on unpleasent items that may or may not make the government look a bit lack luster?

          And please, Pray tell, will you say the same thing a different government is running things? Seriously.

          I get it, no matter what, Labour is the best for some, and why not? But honestly this is something that WE pay all for and some of us really believe that we have more pressing issues then paying for returning Kiwis, Athletes back from overseas trials, Kiddie TV stars, Americas Cup billionaires and their staff etc etc etc.

          So yeah, If labour would have put in plan a pay to collect the costs for isolation, and if they had charged someone with being responsible for the collection of this cost, then they would have not had a bad day in the news. So frankly the Media is not responsible for MIQ and the associated costs, its government. Even if Labour is the one to fuck up.

          • Sanctuary

            You seem very confused, I didn't use the word agenda anywhere.

            Perhaps you should consider a career as a journalist?

            • Louis

              God no, we have enough crap reporters already.

            • Noel

              "The success of our covid response is testimony to the wisdom of not allowing the media set the public health agenda"

              That aside surely the decision that the returnee would be liable for costs was signaled to the returnee when he booked the spot. Before he got anywhere near a plane.

        • AB

          Pretty much – if something is going to get neglected because everyone is frantically busy, then I'd prefer it was the invoicing rather than managing the virus. Ideally both would be achievable – but whatever – life is a mess. The whole purpose of this non-story is to feed comforting myths about the uselessness of the public sector versus the thrusting efficiency of business. This despite the evidence that the public sector has done a pretty good job.

      • Sabine 3.1.2

        as i said, they should have hired some workers who actually know what they do, have the relevant skills to do what needs to be done.

        And to add insult to injury, this Government will at great cost to the tax payer hire some debt collectors to enforce payment – even tho they have no idea what is invoiced and what not. And that i am sure off.

        This lot. This effn lot.

        • Sanctuary

          "…as i said, they should have hired some workers who actually know what they do, have the relevant skills to do what needs to be done…"

          There has been no community transmission or outbreak of COVID from MIQ for four or five months now. I think they've hired people who know what they are doing. Sorry they didn't hire accountants to do a health job.

          • Sabine

            WE had a lockdown in August, in February, and the only reason we dont have a 'community' outbreak here is not due to the government, but literally the good Kiwis that go home and stay home if told to do so.

            If we had some more people in this country that are like some in England or the US, then we would look much different now.

            Firstly, secondly we HAVE covid in the country – we are not free of it, we have not eliminated it, and we just had a huge scare not even ten days ago with some plague tourist from OZ meandering about Wellington as if it were 1988. Which again resulted in a 'lockdown' albeit the least harmful one.

            So yeah, nah. nah.

            • Sanctuary

              What a ridiculous post, dripping with a vacuous cultural cringe, and loaded with a sort of nihilistic yearning for a libertarian contrarianism to make NZ as full of idiots as the UK and USA.

              Not much point in engaging with such idiocy any further.

              • Sabine

                You are right, totally nihilistic pointing out that We are not Covid free, that we had several scares over the last year, and continue to have them.

                How totally libertarian contrarian from me to WANT this government to enforce the policies it so proudly states on its .govt. pages. How totally full of nihilistic yearnings from me to applaud the Kiwis for being good citizens as that is literally the thing that keeps us out of trouble for hte most part. Totally.

                And how very left and socially minded of you to blame the Media for reporting that again the Government is not doing what it said it would do, what it so proudly posted on its own webpage. So very totally Labour! Just because we say we do does not mean we will. Labour 2023!

                • Louis

                  Sabine. So far, there has been no community transmission of Covid19 in New Zealand for 124 days straight.

                  In fact, New Zealand is the only major economy with no community transmission of Covid19.

              • greywarshark

                What agenda do you have Sanctuary?

                You questioned Sabine earlier about the use of the word agenda which you said you didn't use. Yet:

                The whole charging regime was a sop to a reactionary media.
                The success of our covid response is testimony to the wisdom of not allowing the media set the public health agenda.

                It seems that Sabine is making a perfectly valid point that after the isolation and the service, comes the bill. We can walk and chew gum at the same time. And we get their email and home address, and the total payment or stepped regular ones and send them the accounts showing remaining debt. They came, we looked after them as well as we could, and now they should be paying, we have Treasury making the poor people pay for their living, the workers are getting their pay, the country knows how it words, so let's get going.

          • Jimmy

            That's probably because all the front line and MIQ workers would now be vaccinated.

            • Louis

              Its an ongoing process as new front line workers are always coming on board. You cant work at the border unless you are vaccinated.

          • Louis

            +1 Sanctuary

    • KSaysHi 3.2

      The idea of paying later seems out of date and kinda stupid given the financial upheaval everywhere. Why aren't they paying immediately in a no pay, no stay type of deal? That way instead of paying bill collectors we could offer some compassionate free stays.

    • Treetop 3.3

      Imagine if one in four people who stayed in a non MIQ hotel for 14 days did not pay.

      Do people need to pay in advance in a non MIQ hotel or just a deposit?

      A deposit should be taken when a person books an MIQ spot.

      • mary_a 3.3.1

        @ Treetop (3.3) … 100% agree with your comment yes

        A non negotiable payment or deposit up front for a spot in NZ MIQ prior to departure should be the rule.

    • Louis 3.4

      “the ministry had moved to an automated billing system, aiming to chop down the average invoice time to two weeks. Returnees will soon have 30 days to pay their bill rather than 90 days, and they will be offered credit card payment. The ministry is also now getting daily data from Immigration New Zealand, making it easier to get people’s details.
      Main said it may be possible to backtrack and chase up the thousands of returnees who might think they have been forgotten about. We’re in the process of going back through those cases to see if they’re liable to pay. Not all of them will be liable to pay. But where they are we’ll be in touch with them”

      “Gillespie said the Government’s refusal was the right choice. I think the Government have got that one right. I think you need to facilitate the ability of Kiwis to come home, and there is a degree of urgency to get them back. If you’ve got a barrier right at the front that says you’ve got to have the cash right upfront before you come into the country – that would be wrong,”

    • McFlock 3.5

      No rush.

      I'd have been pissd if they'd mastered the billing side of it but were leaking covid like a seive.

    • Foreign Waka 3.6

      I really hope that the economy is not run the same way. Oh hold on, our vaccine program … could it be?

  4. Jenny how to get there 4

    Climate change the long story.

    Lots of accounts coming out of the West Coast of America from those experienceing the unprecedented heatwave.

    The West Coast of the North American continent, from Vancouver to Baha, bakes under an oppressive record breaking heatwave, There are lots of reports of the suffering and rising death toll from heat related death particlularly amongst the elderly.

    Behind the human stories, is there an even bigger story taking place over a longer period?

    The Saharafication of Califormia.

    A product of its low average rainfall, Califormia is famed for its fine weather.

    6,000 years ago the Sahara resembled California.

    So what caused the switch?

    Could heatwaves and fire have had something to do with it?

    Heatwaves and fire are two things affecting the American West Coast right now. It may take 500 years, it may take longer.

    Native north American desert plants adapted to low rainfall can't take the heat. And the effect is dramatic.

    Unexpected: Desert Plants Are Struggling in Higher Heat

    Scientists say even the toughest vegetation cannot tolerate today’s heat waves…


    'California is now in a new climate:' Stanford scientist explains state's heat wave, dry conditions

    Luz Pena, Tuesday, June 29, 2021 2:16AM


  5. Adrian Thornton 5

    Biden illegally bombs in Iraq and Syria, while his FBI seize Iranian owned news sites on the net…the USA still remain the worlds largest and most effective terrorist nation even now Trump is gone, proving that for tens of millions if not billions of humans, the difference between Trump and Biden is less than zero, both are just figureheads of a terrorist nation to them.

    US Again Bombs Nations On Other Side Of The World In 'Self-Defense'


    US authorities seize Iran-linked news websites


    • KSaysHi 5.1

      If I were unfortunate enough to be based in the US I'd be staying the hell home July 4th since it is high profile + high attendance seems like a target. Crazy times in a crazy nation.

      • Adrian Thornton 5.1.1

        On a happier note, international terrorist and war criminal Donald Rumsfeld has passed away, this brutal relentless American imperialist is responsible for the deaths of over 200,000 innocent civilians…making him one of the worst post war war criminals.

        The world breaths just a little more easily today.

        Documented civilian deaths from violence 185,724 – 208,831 Total violent deaths including combatants 288,000


        Ex-Counterterrorism Czar Richard Clarke: Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld Committed War Crimes

  6. peter 6

    I'm pleased with the MIQ invoice story situation. If everyone had been chased and paid some unfortunate newshound would have had to present a story about the cruelty of a returnee being harassed to pay while dealing with her mother's terminal illness.

    If everything was signed, sealed and done I wouldn't need to picture myself in a particular centre dealing with inmates, flaunting my great customer service skills, getting the money off them. Or in some nerve centre formulating a foolproof plan to do it across the board and directing the efficient troops.

    As well as doing the same thing for vaccine procurement, distribution and inoculation of course. Not to mention picking and training the All Blacks to beat Tonga this week.

    The joy of appreciating Chris Bishop in orgasmic raptures about the shortfall is just a bonus.

    There you go, non-payment pays off in the sideline entertainment it provides.

    • Sanctuary 6.1

      God though, the media has learnt nothing. This morning on RNZ they had the usual fare of an entitled upper-middle class person (some member of the global elite called Chris Ruscoe in the USA) spouting on at how he should be allowed to travel unencumbered by any pesky regulations about MIQ from the NZ government because he has been vaccinated.

      He flat out disputed the science on the MoH website. So there you have it. A rich expat in a country that has had 600,000 Covid deaths lecturing us on our public health response based on his own ropey scientific reckons, with the publically funded RNZ kindly providing him a megaphone.

    • Sabine 6.2

      So this here then is the Media?


      New Zealand citizens and residents

      If you are a NZ citizen or resident you will be liable for a charge if:

      • you have left New Zealand, and returned, at any time after 12:01am on 11 August 2020 (when the regulations came into effect).
      • you left New Zealand before 12:01 am on 11 August 2020, and on your first return since leaving you:

        • arrive in New Zealand before 12:01 am on 1 June 2021 and intend to stay for a period of less than 90 days, or
        • arrive in New Zealand after 12:01 am on 1 June 2021 and intend to stay for a period of less than 180 days.

      You will be liable for charges if you travel to any country outside a quarantine-free travel zone during the 90, or 180, day period.

      The term 'New Zealand citizen or resident' means NZ citizens and residence class visa holders. It also includes Australian citizens and permanent residents who are ordinarily resident in NZ.


      as per the disclaimer this was updated last 21 June 2021, so literally a few days ago.

      here another thing not from the Media:


      Charges for critical workers in managed isolation

      These charges apply to all people entering New Zealand on a critical worker visa from 1 January 2021, regardless of when the visa was approved

      Last updated: 28 May 2021

      also not from the Media


      Waivers for charges

      Applications to waive charges for managed isolation will be considered on a case-by-case basis.

      Last updated: 14 June 2021

      now all they need to do is hire some people to enforce their own stated policies and invoice for a service provided.

      This has nothing to do with the Media, other then some not liking that while Labour is good at writing policies they seem unable to enforce them. But then theorising on paper what could / should happen is easier then enforcing it.

      And guess what when the government will waste good money on bad money to pay debt collectors to chase up on the unpaid invoices and maybe even send some out, it is not hte media that will pay for htat, nor dear leader and her party, but You and I and everyone else in this country that pays taxes.

      • Louis 6.2.1

        You’ve missed the point re media framing. "If everyone had been chased and paid some unfortunate newshound would have had to present a story about the cruelty of a returnee being harassed to pay while dealing with her mother's terminal illness" We all know that's exactly how the media would frame it, regardless that returnees know of their financial commitments outlined in your post.

        • Sabine

          You simply missed the point were the government states one thing on their web pages and then misses to actually do what they state. and that is not the fault of the media. Its the fault of the government. 🙂

          Or in other words, if the government had hired the people to collect payment on MIQ stay, send 14500 invoices duly out and then followed up on payments and non payments , the Media would not have a story to write.

          But i guess its all just fake news. Right?

          • Louis

            You still missed the valid point Peter had made and this from your own link Sabine

            “Gillespie said the Government’s refusal was the right choice. I think the Government have got that one right. I think you need to facilitate the ability of Kiwis to come home, and there is a degree of urgency to get them back. If you’ve got a barrier right at the front that says you’ve got to have the cash right upfront before you come into the country – that would be wrong,”

    • woodart 6.3

      good one peter. when life hands out lemons, get the tequeila out!

  7. Sanctuary 7

    See all those crowds in the UK watching the soccer?

    yeah, about that… UK is heading for another COVID disaster.

    Currently, as Christina Pagel points out, 3-4 per cent of cases in the UK will end up in hospital. The problem is, the growth of infections is exponential: cases are more than doubling each week. Each new addition of cases overwhelms previous additions. At the current rate of growth, the UK will be seeing 40,000 cases a day by the Tories arbitrarily selected ‘freedom day’, which is higher than the roughly 35,000 recorded in the whole week up to 21st June in the UK. Three per cent of 40,000 would bring 1,200 daily hospitalisations by early August, which is roughly what the NHS was coping with at the start of December.

  8. Sabine 8

    Moaning alert.

    For those that consider news that make the government look like they are not quite up there and doing it, please don't read this, it will make you unhappy. For those that actually care about things others then funny speaches that lead to nowhere, here is some 'health news' and i am sure Mr. Little will front up again to tell us how 'unhappy and frustrated" with the underlings that don't do their job and make him look out of place, out of ideas, very old and crunchy and downright useless. But then he earned his spot, right?


    Eleven sick babies are being cared for in a playroom at Middlemore Hospital because it has run out of space in the regular wards.

    The number of beds for older children is also down, leaving families and already busy staff stressed as they decide who can be admitted and who should be cared for at home.

    The bed cuts were because of building work taking place and come as a big spike in respiratory illnesses hit the hospital

    But hey, its just South Auckland, right? its not as if that matters, surely come 2022 someone will be dispatched by the Labour Party to tell these people the many ways Labour will fix it. lol.

    • Cricklewood 8.1

      Careful Sabine you might get accused of hate speech with a comment like that

      • Sabine 8.1.1

        I totally expect that.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 8.1.2

        Reading today's 'Open Mike' (getting through the comments a lot faster these days) had me wondering if it's time for a name change – how about 'Moaning Report'?

        Moaning Report certainly has the ring of truth.

        Moaning Report: so obviously ‘right’ – Let's Do This!

        Dear Leader, pull finger and make the change to Moaning Report – do it now!

        And why stop at Moaning Report – Daily Review could become ‘Moanpoint’ (groan).

        Damn, the good ones are taken – that's my unconstructive moan over and done with.

        • woodart

          moaning report, yes, some of the posters get the bypass from me, same old whinge etc etc.

          • Drowsy M. Kram

            You could have a bit of silly fun with the whole RNZ weekday schedule:

            All Night Moan (12 midnight)
            First Moan (5 am)
            Moaning Report (6 am)|
            Moan-til-Noon (9 am)
            Midday Moan (12 noon)
            Aftermoans with Jesse Moanagin (1 pm)
            Moan Panel with Wallace Moanman (3:35 pm)
            Moanpoint with Lisa Moanwen (5 pm)
            Moaning Now (6:30 pm)
            Night Moans with Barry Gripe
            Moans at Ten
            Late Moans with Karyn Howl
            Music Moans 101

            Unfair to most of the presenters who do their best to feed us positive stories.

    • Rosemary McDonald 8.2

      The upsurge in RSV infections in babies and toddlers is very possibly due to the effect Lockdowns in the past 16 months. Worldwide.

      While the concept of humans being able to generate natural immunity to various diseases is now considered anti-vaxxerconspiracytheorytinfoilhatwearingnutbarmisinformation…the sad fact is that in a desperate bid to protect the old and vulnerable from Te Covid we have left our babies and tots without the natural immune priming needed to protect them from the ever circulating seasonal greeblies.

      And opening the bubble with Australia was maybe not such a shit -hot idea.

      Dr Sue Huang – a virologist who tracks flu-like illnesses – said since New Zealand opened our bubble to Australia there had been a sharp increase in the number of RSV hospital presentations.

      "It's fascinating. The week we opened the bubble we had one presentation of RSV and it's been increasing ever since to last week we saw 204 presentations … it's such a sharp exponential increase.

      "I'm not surprised to hear Middlemore has been busy, I imagine Starship and others would have been too … which is concerning," Huang said.

      She said usually children experienced episodes of RSV in their first two years of life but last year there was a cohort of young babies who were never exposed to the virus due to lockdown and high-level safety measures like social distancing and hand-washing.

      "So not only are you getting those children who have delayed exposure of RSV but also the group of babies born after them being exposed," Huang said.

    • alwyn 8.3

      The bit that gets me is that they seem to be surprised that at this time of the year there is an increase in the number of kids that have respiratory illnesses. End of June and they didn't seem to have expected it?

    • tc 8.4

      Oversubscribing and then systemically underfunded a service like health as nact did takes decades to undo.

      Middlemores also meant to be in south Auckland (brown's Rd) proper not just inside the boundary on the wrong site with buildings never intended as such.

      Dismantling self servicing DHB’S is a good sign so far

      • Sabine 8.4.1

        Maybe the problem is not only that the Health System is systematically deprived of much needed funds to just keep up with population growth – specifically in Auckland, but maybe the problem really is that the underfunding is BIPARTISAN.

        The same can be said of roads (Northland comes to mind, or are we only talking about the shitty roads up there when it is a National government and it is Simon "No Bridges in Northland' Bridges making an ass of himself), schools, public housing, and literally any other services that is vital for the upkeep of a healthy community.

        And for what its worth, i have and will say the same thing when the same issue arises again under a different government, because essentially there are few critter in government that are not to some extend guilty of underfunding our services that we need while throwing cash at stuff that serves no one.

        The state of our hosptials the country up and down is a public shame. Dismantling the DHB will be of little use imo as the same people that did not fund the DHBs will also not fund any other iteration thereof.

        A bit of history of the DHB

        DHBs were established in January 2001 by the New Zealand Public Health and Disability Act 2000. Although they may differ in size, structure and approach, all 20 DHBs have a common goal: to improve the health of their populations by delivering high quality and accessible health care

        and they were established by the Labour /Alliance Government under Helen Clark.

        So let me simply find it funny that the same people that created the DHBs now want accolades for dismantling it.

        As i said, these issues are bipartisan. And the only ones paying for the willful neglect or the incompetence of government to fund and enforce rules / regulations are Mr and Mrs Ordinary Kiwis and the little urchins that are on the floor in a play room for lack of facilities and beds.

        • Louis

          They dont want accolades Sabine, the DHB's haven't worked out, so why not dismantle it? You forget that the previous National govt ran down and underfunded the Health system by $2.3 billion dollars. It going to take many years to fix the long standing issues.


          • Sabine

            So you are saying that we should give the guys that build a system that don't work another chance at great cost to build another system? Why on earth would anyone do that? They in the meantime can't even fund their own system while they pontificate about how great their next system is gonna be. Your bar is so low, its literally underground.

            In the meantime in NZ people who are sick and in pain and need medical care or surgeries can't get it for lack of funds, staff, and physical locations, and 5 years in their reign and 1 year in their majority reign they still refuse to do what is needed to do. Fund the Services as per their need and the countries need and not as per the need of Grant Robertson to achieve a surplus, or squander it on some bike bridges and Americas cups idiocy for rich people.

            • Louis

              Its not the same Labour govt and there has been a most destructive National led govt that severely underfunded health/DHBs since they were introduced. The Labour govt has been doing a catchup and has injected a huge amount of funding into health and to repeat its going to take many years to fix those long standing issues. They dont have a magic wand.

    • McFlock 8.5


      lockdown vs quarantine vs a 2019 baseline. Might be a research paper in that. Between child illnesses and the flu-like symptom rate, might we be getting a picture of a "negative externality" from the tourist industry?

    • Louis 8.6

      You act like this is a new issue that has occurred only under this Labour govt that you clearly hate, Sabine.

      • greywarshark 8.6.1

        Did you see this Louis.

        And for what its worth, i have and will say the same thing when the same issue arises again under a different government, because essentially there are few critter in government that are not to some extend guilty of underfunding our services that we need while throwing cash at stuff that serves no one.

        Some comments are longish but the TS ones have fibre in them!

  9. Reality 9

    Re daily misery diatribes on every topic imaginable are very off-putting. Some people sure cannot see any joy in anything at all. After a few wild Wellington days, the sun is shining!

    • Cricklewood 9.1

      With apologies to blam blam blam

      There is no depression in New Zealand
      There are no emmisions from our farms
      There is no depression in New Zealand
      We can all keep perfectly calm

      But everybody's talking about Housing affordability
      'Cause everybody's talking about Housing affordability
      But we're as safe as safe can be
      There's no unrest in this country

      We have no child poverty
      We have no homelessness
      We have no racism
      We have no sexism
      Sexism, no, no

      There is no depression in New Zealand
      There are no teeth in our heads
      There is no depression in New Zealand
      We have plenty of hospital beds

      Oh, but everybody's talking about Housing affordability
      Yes, everybody's talking about Housing affordability
      But we're as safe as safe can be
      There's no homelessness in this country

      We have no Covid
      We have no Secrets
      We have no Violence
      We have no Meth
      Meth, no, no

      There is no depression in New Zealand
      There are no emissions from our farms
      There is no depression in New Zealand
      Thanks to Jacinda we can an all keep perfectly calm
      Perfectly calm
      Perfectly calm
      Perfectly calm
      Perfectly calm

      • greywarshark 9.1.1

        On looking at the truth behind the fog of myth, half–truth, comfortable and uncomfortable jargon and pretense, we can bless Donald Rumsfeld below who brought his thoughts to our notice. When you can understand the depth and width of his message, and the understandings of the intellectual people who wrote it down, one gets to know how a politician learns to think. If you can understand that, and still keep a clear and questing mind looking for a truth you can accept and work with, then one becomes part of a small percentage of the population that outreaches those in Mensa.

        Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know.

        We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know.

        And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tends to be the difficult ones. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_known_knowns

        Next grade – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johari_window

    • greywarshark 9.2

      The reality is that we have to get the pollies moving this term or we could be final curtain. If you read regularly you will note the odd quip, funny link, creative work such as Cricklewood's below. You could have a go yourself. Did you see the link on Newshub I think that showed the otters organising insulation for their lodge?

  10. Byd0nz 10

    On hearing of the death of Donald Rumsfeld.

    Make sure he's buried face down.

    • Sabine 10.1

      and sprinkle salt. Several kilos of it.

    • AB 10.2

      His death doesn't undo the harm he caused – if anything it makes it even more depraved that such criminality was perpetrated by someone just as mortal as all those Iraqis whose lives he caused to be prematurely extinguished. He is now freed from the possibility of developing a conscience and from the need to repent.

    • Ad 10.3

      Aye. And tramp the dirt down.

    • Foreign Waka 10.4


  11. KSaysHi 11

    Article in Herald this morning about wealthy parents receiving $35 million in Best Start payments. Since I refuse to pay the Herald anything I don't know if they have covered the fact that the $60 payment would have caused any parents recieving Temporary Additional Support (TAS) to lose money from that income. In some cases it would have nullified the TAS payment completely resulting in zero gain, or at worst a net loss to the poorest parents in the country.

    The Give And Take And Take Government strikes again!

    • Sabine 11.1


      of course it does not,.from

      IRD has estimated that up to 58 per cent of households would get the three-year payments under Best Start.

      Ministry of Social Development figures show 13,422 beneficiary families also received it in the 2019-20 tax year and 20,484 in the 2020-21 tax year.

      The Families Package also included extensions to paid parental leave up to 26 weeks and more generous Working for Families tax credits.

      An evaluation on the impact of those changes on the first cohort of parents to qualify for them found they delivered a much bigger increase to working parents than to beneficiaries for the six months after birth.

      It found working parents on paid parental leave were $72 a week better off in the first six months of their baby's life than prior to the changes – an 11 per cent increase –

      while those on benefits got the smallest increase in income – $31 a week on average – a 5 per cent increase.

      On average, parents of newborns were $55 a week better off.

      However, it said those on benefits and low incomes would get more than workers in the long run because they would be eligible for the Best Start payments for three years.

      bolded and colors all mine.

      • Louis 11.1.1

        • greywarshark

          Remember this truth –

          universalism is important because if payments/services are just for the poor, the Nats cut them

      • KSaysHi 11.1.2

        Thanks for that Sabine.
        And thank you Leo T.

  12. Jenny how to get there 12


    Toby Morris graphic novel illustrator and writer asks us: "What's not adding up?"

    My two cents worth;

    Wall to wall TV ads for these vehicles, for one thing.

    Allowing them to be imported in massive numbers in the first place, for another.

    Zero political will to take any meaningful action.


    • Rosemary McDonald 12.1

      Funny you should bring that up.

      The local grapevine has been abuzz with the rumour that A Certain Prime Minister is going to grace the Far Far North with her presence today. Turning the sod on a massive solar farm..built in our special part of the rohe… because hey, the Far North has the highest wholesale electricity prices in the country, allowing the company to get a good price for its power. Whoopie, and bully for them.

      Back to the double cab utes….which absolutely rule up here…(very handy for carting around the gas bottles because so many of us up here are dependent on the more affordable gas for cooking, heating and water heating)I heard a nasty rumour that owners of said offensive vehicles were planning some kind of protest action. A mere token gesture, off course, but a few were keen.

      They'd feel less aggrieved if The Dignitaries turned up in one of these…

      • Jenny how to get there 12.1.1

        Yes I think it would create a stir if the pollies turned up in one of these; everyone would want one.

        Electrically powered, zero emissions, billions saved on building more motorways, and roads, ballistic parachutes fitted in case of malfunction making them safer than the average car, for further safety piloted remotely, to google earth algorithms to pre-programmed flight paths and automated vehicle spacing, no pilots license required, just get in and punch in your destination.

        Be like George Jetson who punched in a few buttons and then put his feet up for the ride from his house to his work.

        It's the imagined future made real.

        So it only carries one person. So what, sit beside the motorway and see how many cars carry more than one person. Your luggage can follow in second vehicle slaved to your one.
        And no need for a parking space after it drops you off at work it returns home to its charging station, ready to come and pick you up at knock off time.

      • Anne 12.1.2

        So, you object to solar farms being built in the North on the grounds that:

        the Far North has the highest wholesale electricity prices in the country, allowing the company to get a good price for its power.

        I assume you approve of solar energy farms to help combat the more dire effects of Climate Change but not in your back yard.

        There are not many places in NZ that are climactically suitable to build solar farms but the far North is one of them… not only because of its warmer climes, but also the type and flatness of the land available.

        Once they are up and running – and I'm sure there's more in the pipe-line for other suitable land masses around the country – they will have the desired effect of significantly reducing the cost of electricity for everyone because energy from the sun is free and requires virtually no maintenance work on a regular basis.


        So, your assumption that they are being built in the Far north based on some sort of region related increase in profit margins sounds to me like nonsense.

        • Rosemary McDonald

          My apologies for the potential confusion in the way I embedded the links.


          The rumour... Andrews said the site was also strategic because the Far North has the highest wholesale electricity prices in the country, allowing the company to get a good price for its power.

          Not sure where you got the impression I am objecting to this solar farm.

          What I am very disappointed about is that the fact that the company is having a minor gloat about how this is a profit making venture and the fact that we pay the highest per unit power prices in the country is going to be good for his business.

          Whooppieddoo…and nevermind the locals who struggle to pay their power bills with us being one of the areas of highest deprivation in the country.

          The nimby factor…? Considering the biggest issue up here at the moment environmentwise is the ever increasing avocado acres and the associated groundwater take and agrichemical spraying…

          The Pukenui lease was secured, on land now used for grazing and maize, because the landowner preferred the solar panels to any intensive horticulture, general manager John Andrews​ told Stuff earlier this year.

          We are not allowed to use chemical sprays on our site – the landowner prohibited it.”

          So hopefully no issues there. (When I catch up with one of the neighbours of the solar farm, who is also active in the battle against the increasing avocado monoculture I'll get back to you. wink)

          So, your assumption that they are being built in the Far North based on some sort of region related increase in profit margins sounds to me like nonsense.

          Since the director of the company actually said that this was a factor…do you think you'd like to retract/revise your "sounds to me like nonsense"?

        • Cricklewood

          I think the objection is the North already pays over the odds for power on the basis electricity is generated much further away. Local generation dhould see the North get the same pricing as the everybody else…

          Anyways if you think electricity is going to get cheaper you're dreaming its going to get alot more expensive with additional demand… no new gas connections, electric vehicles, increasing temperatures will put more load on as air con systems become more prevelant + population growth…

          Look at the current spot price once retail contracts expire big increases are very likely

  13. joe90 13

    Bill Cosby is an unrepentant, un-exonerated sexual predator, who, in a just world, would remain incarcerated until he carcs it, yet women across 'Murica aren't burning everything to the fucking ground.

    At 3pm on August 13 2004, Akku Yadav was lynched by a mob of around 200 women from Kasturba Nagar. It took them 15 minutes to hack to death the man they say raped them with impunity for more than a decade. Chilli powder was thrown in his face and stones hurled. As he flailed and fought, one of his alleged victims hacked off his penis with a vegetable knife. A further 70 stab wounds were left on his body. The incident was made all the more extraordinary by its setting. Yadav was murdered not in the dark alleys of the slum, but on the shiny white marble floor of Nagpur district court.


    • greywarshark 13.1

      I think that women in the women in Nagpur, State of Maharashtra, India sparked off the anguished protests about this:

      The incident took place [in Delhi] when Jyoti Singh, a 23-year-old female physiotherapy intern, was beaten, gang-raped, and tortured in a private bus in which she was travelling with her male friend. There were six others in the bus, including the driver, all of whom raped the woman and beat her friend. Eleven days after the assault she was transferred to a hospital in Singapore for emergency treatment but died two days later. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Delhi_gang_rape_and_murder

      The aftermath; and anger has been building at the blatant lack of concern about women's freedom and rights to go about their lives safely:

      An author for the South Asia Analysis Group explained the protests as expressions of middle-class angst arising out of a collapse of a social contract between them and the liberal state.[183] New Delhi has the highest number of sex crimes among India's major cities. Police figures show a rape reported on average every 18 hours; reported rape cases rose by nearly 17 percent between 2007 and 2011.[184] Only one of the 706 rape cases filed in Delhi in 2012 saw a successful conviction against the attacker.[78]

      Between 16 December and 4 January 501 calls for harassment and 64 calls for rape were recorded by the Delhi Police, but only four were followed up by inquiries.[181 – 2013] The regional programme director for U.N. Women South Asia said, "There are rape cases in almost all cities and rural areas, where the victim dies immediately because of the brutality of the crime … This time, it was like, 'Wake up.'"

  14. weka 14

    Mind boggling that this still has to be pointed out.

    • Forget now 14.1

      Trans women are also at risk of violence from men (& cis women too for that matter). Intersex (&NB) are obviously also irrelevant to the original Twit.

      But anyway; have you got the NZ rather than UK data, Weka? I am on mobile, so that's not the easiest for me to find, otherwise I'd do it myself.

      • weka 14.1.1

        Feel free to talk about the issues around violence against trans women, intersex and NB people any time you like, then you won't need to appropriate women's issues.

        Women don't need to mention all the people when they talk about their own politics. What you call irrelevant is simply women doing women's business. It's not a statement that other issues don't matter.

      • Sabine 14.1.2

        Violence against women is a rite of passage. Rape, sexual harrasment, being offered money for sex acts/pictures etc is also a rite of passage for women and girls.

        So why be surprised that that exact societal violence against women is also applied to trans women?

        As i said to the Transwoman who worked for me during her course when she complained about being offered a lower wage then her boyfriend for the same job at the same company, Welcome to the world of Women. You will work harder for less, and someone will try to pinch your bum and if you don't laugh they will let you know that you are not a good sport and lack in humor.

        That is the life of women.

        See the article about the School in Christchurch were at least 20 girls have come forward in a review as having been raped – some even gang raped and not one went to the police. And these are girls, not even adults. Violence against women is as old as the world.

        • weka

          trans women also are at risk of violence from men because of transphobia and transmisogyny.

          • Sabine

            I understand that. But i really see standard bog misogyny is the main reason i would guess. The transphopia comes in once it is realised that the women is trans. And i could see it even be worse in some cases, as clearly why on earth would any men be a women if being a man comes with so much privilege. So any man who wants to be a women and who will go trough the motions to become one is almost a traitor to the gender male. (i hope i make sense here)

            • weka

              I understand.

              Ime online, there is a wide range of how trans women present. Many TW are not hard to identify as trans. I think they are at risk from a specific kind of male rage.

              I also think that trans men are at risk specific to being trans too (despite having been left off FN's list above).

    • Muttonbird 14.2

      Without having read that Twitter feed, I am slightly alarmed that general violence in men is being equated with transgenders.

      On the surface it seems to be demonising Transgenders and pasting the violence statistics of other men onto them.

      • Sabine 14.2.1

        well, what about this then?


        this guy killed, and then in prison found god and felt he should be a women, and now is a women and it appears he is threatening the family of one of his victims.

        Where would you put him on that list? His previous murders were as a man, if he now were to follow up on his threats would they be the actions of a women?

        • weka

          no, but in the UK they would be recorded as a female crime. And if they raped a woman, that woman would be compelled to refer to them as she at court (assuming it ever went to court).

          • Sabine

            can you see how this could end really badly? Cause i can.

            • weka

              yep. It's already pretty bad. It's not like women were in a great position to start with. Now seeing some of those gains rolled back by the left, it's actually horrifying.

            • weka

              I need to get better bookmarking. There was some tweets a while back about the stats increase in sexual crimes by women. Because so few women sexually assault people, it doesn't take many men IDing as women to make a noticeable rise in the stats. Scary thing here is that the justice system in the UK may have no way of knowing how many of those crimes were by males. Also scary, Stats NZ wants to prioritise gender data over sex data.

      • weka 14.2.2

        'other men'. Glad you got that bit right.

        It's not trans people, it's males, whatever their self identity. But the tweet is about women and why we need female only spaces. If you have some evidence for that trans women aren't ever violent, I'd like to see it. There's definitely this idea that they're not, and I'm not sure what that is based on, but there's enough evidence to suggest that trans women have patterns of male violence. It's not that trans women are all violent any more than men are. It's that to protect women from male violence we have women only spaces because women cannot predict which men will be violent.

        • Muttonbird

          If you have some evidence for that trans women aren't ever violent, I'd like to see it.

          I don't have evidence for that, and I didn't claim it. Where do you detect there is an idea trans women aren't ever violent?

          Is the tweet supposed to be evidence that trans women are as violent as men? Particularly in the most relevant category, 'Sexual offences' where the ratio is 98%/2%. That seems to be the claim and I struggled to believe it.

          I did inadvertently stumble with the 'other men' reference. While not my intention, it's similar to the belief held that trans women are not women at all and never will be. This is the kind of othering which nurtures persecution.

  15. Anker 15

    Yes indeed. But the Minister of Women and the Greens, might accuse of transphobia for pointing this out

    • weka 15.1

      if for some reason you can't use the Reply button, can you please signify what comment you are replying to? Number of comment works, or time stamp, or even the person's name.

  16. Robert Guyton 16

    Don't know if it's been covered, but The Guardian calls, "Karen" 🙂


  17. Sabine 17

    that is a bit rich?

    But the Herald understands at least three formal complaints have been made this year alone to OT about the same staffer.

    Three young males in care – all under 14 – claim they were subjected to violence by the same man.

    The complaints were made to OT by either parents, guardians or advocates for the young people.

    The Herald has learned one of the youths was taken from Te Oranga last night by his parents.

    Police are now investigating that as an alleged abduction.


  18. greywarshark 18


    Is the government getting its needs too easily through 15% GST so not in a hurry to collect fees for MIQ, or set up regular payments?

  19. greywarshark 19

    This from Radionz on 29 June. What are they on about – it sounds like an advertisement for the tourism lobby. We already know that Covid19 is hard on families, this is not news. Is Radionz getting at the government over this – it is irresponsible for our public radio to make an issue of this point. (It has a QANTAS marked image on the net.)


    …"It's so disheartening because you don't get the chance to say goodbye, to grieve … you just can't get the closure you need."
    Her brother has now been cremated. She did not get to see his body.

    • Populuxe1 19.1

      So you're saying that human interest stories should be censored because they're inconvenient?

      • greywarshark 19.1.1

        Can you try to get the point I was obviously making. That the matter is not new, and that Radionz is not a tabloid more interested in the easy emotional 'human interest repetition' and should concentrate on the important new news,and the backgrounding giving us understanding of the issues.

        • Populuxe1

          Oh I get your point, it's just a utilitarian and unempathetic one that devalues the humanity of people dealing with a difficult and stressful situation. That's all.

          • greywarshark

            Oh boohoo, there are a tonne of sad things going on every day in the world as well as NZ ie horrible domestic abuse, that we all ignore quite comfortably, and I am amazed at how much. Specialising in the favourite sad tale of the month devalues all the rest of the people who deserve our sympathy and action. Yours as well as mine, Big-heart. That's all.

        • Pete

          RNZ National is on 24 hours a day. I'd describe it as having a 'magazine' format. To me it seems on any day lots of stories cover lots of facets about lots of aspects of our country and world.

          What would they need to change to have them concentrating on the "important new news and the background giving us understanding of the issues"?

          Would changing from what they have to what you foresee impact on their listenership? (Presuming the number of listeners is important to them and their funding.)

          • greywarshark

            Pete Your last point is the crux of the matter. They should be funded as a public good, being aware of keeping in touch with all different groups, but providing good balanced reporting of news with background information and truthful reporting with relevant stats. Because that is what citizens who want to be effective in their inter-actions with pollies and planners and defend themselves against The Machine and Tech taking us and our lives over, need.

    • Pat 19.2

      It may be fair to criticise RNZ, certainly the quality of journalism has declined in recent times imo but does that require a complete focus on 'serious matters'?

      There should be space for more light hearted and 'public interest' coverage or we will end up with something akin to Al Jazerra….worthy but depressing.

      • greywarshark 19.2.1

        My point again, is that the reference to people trying to be with dying relatives, has been covered before. To repeat it at this time is just a case of picking at the government getting tight on travel because of events, that people ought to know might happen, and did happen.

        There are people having tragedies in NZ just as real as not being able to travel when booked. But they aren't as 'now' as those from Covid19. We are bored with those tragedies, people being pushed to 3rd-world status in our top-rating wealthy country. How can people be so much like weather-cocks, switching their compassion on and off in different directions. It doesn't seem to be able to spread over all and so remind pollies that they have to look at our world both directly and then with a fish-eye lens.

        • Pat

          Fair enough….theres plenty of grief in the world but everyone will rank it differently and the media will always focus on the tragedy du jour

  20. greywarshark 20

    Teachers having to apply for renewal of their licence to work every year? And costing lots? Really our systems are unsatisfactory for people after being told we were over-regulated with government control. Now we are being trussed with regulations through business-controlled agencies and a letmotif of 'excellence' and competition to be the top on a sort of motorway to run along or be dropped off for not meeting the fanciful requirements of people with OCD.

    • Sabine 20.1

      Money, it costs an aweful lot of money to be in business, be that as a teacher, a lisenced kitchen, or nurse. We all pay for the pleasure to work. The councils and the state needs money.

      • Pat 20.1.1

        The state needs you to need their money….thats a big difference

      • greywarshark 20.1.2

        Sabine – we know you are so good to the state, and it will in the end come to take note of your valuable advice, and why, because at the back of it is experience and practicality. You are probably being ironic about 'pleasure to work' but I believe that the studies show that humans need work to be satisfied, get a reward, and feel they are needed, have a place in society. And it is true that Councils and the state need money. All over the country they are going further into debt to erect some monument to our past good times, and counting on ratepayers to repay it in the future; we'll be lucky! All this is how I honestly feel. no BS.

        • Sabine

          Honestly all i said was that yes, depending on the type of business you do, you must pay a lisencing fee in order to work. Thus 'pay for the pleasure to work'. There was nothing more to my comment, it solely relied on your comments on teachers paying to update their teachers lisence every year. And yes the money raised by these fees is important to local and state government. It is certainly a considerable amount.

          Nothing more nothing less. I am really sorry if that was not clear. I shall not try myself at humor again, my inner german is obviously not suited to it.

  21. Jenny how to get there 21


    What a nasty thing to leave to our children.

    ….This week in the Pacific north-west, temperature records are not just being broken, they are being obliterated. Temperatures reached a shocking 47.9C in British Columbia, Canada. Amid temperatures more typically found in the Sahara desert, dozens have died of heat stress, with “roads buckling and power cables melting”.

    ….in the Middle East and Asia something truly terrifying is emerging: the creation of unliveable heat.

    While humans can survive temperatures of well over 50C when humidity is low, when both temperatures and humidity are high, neither sweating nor soaking ourselves can cool us.

    ….Humans cannot survive prolonged exposure to a wet-bulb temperature beyond 35C because there is no way to cool our bodies. Not even in the shade, and not even with unlimited water.

    …..Of paramount importance is energy supplies being resilient to heatwaves, as people will be relying on electricity for cooling from air-conditioning units, fans and freezers, which are all life-savers in a heatwave. Similarly, internet communications and data centres need to be future-proofed, as these are essential services that can struggle in the heat.


    Can we prevent it?

    Yes we can, there are no technological barriers. And we are the last generation that could implement them in time. All that is missing is the political will to do so.

    Frankly I am disgusted.

    Sharing this time with our children, knowing what we have left install for them, we should all feel a deep shame.

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