Open Mike 04/12/2017

173 comments on “Open Mike 04/12/2017 ”

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1. Ed 1

   4 December 2017 at 7:03 am

   ‘Why does the media give these voices so much air’

   http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/345304/why-does-the-media-give-these-voices-so-much-air
   • cleangreen 1.1

     4 December 2017 at 7:23 am

     Good Morning Ed,

     Yes this drivile is disturbing when we dont see our regional news reported any more except if you are an auckland resident eh?

     HB/Gisborne does not even have a RNZ reporter after two years now so we are largely ignored down here, and this is so very disturbing when now we have a labour lead government who needs to get the issues outnthere to sell their new ‘regional policies’ and why our rail is now so vitial to our regions export potential else we will just conitue to wither and die.

     Come on Labour!!!!!!!!! – bring back a ‘true regional TV seven type channel’ “publc affairs” media for the public benefits of having a voice finally again.
2. eco maori 2

   4 December 2017 at 7:30 am

   Many thanks to Shane Jones for his idea of work for the dole. I would rename it as that is not a appealing name and the goal is to make this idea appealing to our youth for this to work. Yes there will be training need I say have a career map for these people driving licence right up to class 5 digger operators ECT and a pathway to the forestry harvesting as these jobs in forestry are hard work and one does not want to be doing these jobs when the gray hair STARTS to show I don’t think that punishing our youth who can work is the right way to make this successfull. What will make this successful will be to make it appealing to our youth so they all want to join this venture. Getting to work in the forestry one gets picked up and dropped of at ones house. If it is really successful no other government will scrap it. As what has happened in the past pep scheme.
   Happy birthday Hillary. Ka pai
   • cleangreen 2.1

     4 December 2017 at 7:51 am

     100% eco maori;

     Spot on there.
   • One Anonymous Bloke 2.2

     4 December 2017 at 7:54 am

     Nothing wrong with work for wages.
     • Bill 2.2.1

       4 December 2017 at 9:09 am

       Yes there is. It’s called wage slavery and is an affront to human dignity.
       • One Anonymous Bloke 2.2.1.1

         4 December 2017 at 9:22 am

         Is this like Golriz Ghahramen, where unless every statement about employment specifically condemns wage-slavery, the author must be a wage-slavery denier?

         In the SME where I do some part time hours, alongside my boss, who gets paid less than me (I know this because I do the accounts), I’m quite happy to do a bit of work for someone else.

         Meanwhile, the point about work-for-the-dole was what again?
         • Bill 2.2.1.1.1

           4 December 2017 at 9:59 am

           Presumably you endorse the idea of people being coerced into work if a wage is paid. I don’t.

           In the interview given by Jacinda Ardern she was pretty clear (in spite of her general penchant to waffle herself away from making any definitive statements) that WINZ sanctions would remain in place and apply to those presented with the scheme.

           edit – (from about 2:58 through 3:06) http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018624024
           • One Anonymous Bloke 2.2.1.1.1.1

             4 December 2017 at 10:06 am

             I endorse no such thing. When in doubt, ask.

             Carmel Sepuloni has specific responsibility for that portfolio:

             Labour to ditch sanctions that ‘punished’ mothers…

             “There are very serious changes that are going to be made to the principles of the Social Security Act,”

             But Shane Jones runs his mouth therefore the NZLP and Minister Sepuloni must do as he says? Pfft.
             • Bill …

               4 December 2017 at 10:14 am

               At present, if you are claiming unemployment benefit and turn down work that WINZ deems “suitable”, you are sanctioned (ie – you lose money). Those sanctions will remain and apply to those who are offered placement on the “Ready for Work” (or whatever it’s called) scheme.

               Ditching the sanction that kicked in around unnamed fathers isn’t in any way related to work readiness sanctions.
               • One Anonymous Bloke …

                 4 December 2017 at 10:19 am

                 Sure. If the “very serious changes that are going to be made to the principles of the Social Security Act” are inadequate or discriminatory (and hey, it’s the NZLP so I think that’s ‘possible’), then I intend to beat Labour about the head with them.

                 I’m still not going to jump to conclusions on the say-so of Guyon Espiner and Shane Jones.
                 • Bill …

                   4 December 2017 at 10:31 am

                   The PM (not Jones or Espinar) made a pretty clear indication that those sanctions that already exist will remain and be applied.

                   If they were removed, there would be much, much less to prevent workers exercising a bit of power and walking away from bullshit employers to live on the dole until they found a decent employer.

                   The principle (ie – “mission statement”) can change all it wants. But will that likely amount to much more than “feel good” twattery? Probably not.

                   Hey. We’ll see. But I have a good collection of 2x4s and you can borrow one when the time comes.
           • weka 2.2.1.1.1.2

             4 December 2017 at 1:26 pm

             another nail in the coffin there.
         • Sabine 2.2.1.1.2

           4 December 2017 at 10:26 am

           so is the tax payer now responsible to pay the wages for private industry in order to entice private industry to hire?
           Also, what if the work place one is placed is an abusive work place? Can you leave or will your dole sanctioned? If your work for the dole is a pick up and drop of at your home place job and your boss is abusive how could you leave and get a way? Or do you just have to put up with a bit of abuse, sexual harrasment (as i witnessed this week at a Countdown where a bloke berated a young girl collecting funds for the SPCA until my partner, two security guards and I stepped in and ended up calling the Police!) until your driver comes to get you home? What if your driver is the one who abuses the ‘worker for the dole”.
           Also, what if a work place fires their employees – McDo, KFC, etc come to mind – to hire the tax payer funded crew – cause nothing is cheaper then a worker who can’t complain lest he / she ‘gets sanctioned’.

           IS that really the only thing this country can come up with to find work places for their young ones, or is this again just another way to show some that you don’t count, and if you complain we ‘take away your ‘dole’.

           There is so much wrong with this scheme its not funny anymore. How about making sure that private businesses start training again for their own needs? Heck in Europe they call this ‘Apprentice program’ not working for the dole. OH, its in the too hard basket. Lets just bash some young people for not having a job rather then bash businesses for not hiring young ones and training them.

           Right.
           • One Anonymous Bloke 2.2.1.1.2.1

             4 December 2017 at 10:33 am

             The inner details of Shane Jones’ “thoughts” aren’t worth the effort. Wait and see what changes the government proposes to the Social Security Act.

             That will either provide reassurance or solid ammunition.
           • Bill 2.2.1.1.2.2

             4 December 2017 at 10:37 am

             If I was government….I’d levy a specific tax on large employers and use it to fund dole payments. How long then before unemployment levels “miraculously” hit 5/8ths of f.a. I wonder?

             And with full employment, all that power accruing to employees again. What’s not to like about that? 😉
             • Sabine …

               4 December 2017 at 10:58 am

               i like your idea. This could actually work.

               but yeah, lets provide a tax payer funded workforce to our large employers who otherwise would not hire as it would affect the share holders value or other such bullshit.
               • Bill …

                 4 December 2017 at 11:24 am

                 I think it’s not an idea that will be getting discussed at “the cabinet table” any time soon 😉

                 Far easier to keep on throwing society into the chopping blades of commerce for the benefit of the few. It’s a fine arrangement to be sure.
       • bwaghorn 2.2.1.2

         4 December 2017 at 8:01 pm

         i enjoy working for my wages , cant be bothered running a buiseness and hate being poor
     • Sabine 2.2.2

       4 December 2017 at 9:26 am

       Thank you for pointing that one out.

       The dole is for people who can not work due to unemployment, sickness, care for parents/children etc.

       Wages are for people who work.
   • Draco T Bastard 2.3

     4 December 2017 at 9:28 am

     I don’t think that punishing our youth who can work is the right way to make this successfull.

     Punishing people for not working comes from the age old (and wrong) idea that people need to be forced to work.
   • mac1 2.4

     4 December 2017 at 9:33 am

     http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2017/12/work-for-the-dole-plans-actually-work-for-minimum-wage-ardern.html

     PM Ardern clarifies.
     “If it goes ahead, the scheme will differ to past ‘work-for-the-dole’ programmes says Ms Ardern, because participants will actually get paid at least the minimum wage.

     “The fact there will be a legal wage attached to it distinguishes it from some of those schemes in the past,” she told The AM Show on Monday.”

     The release press from Shane Jones announcing the four schemes stated “at least the minimum wage.” Critics missed this.

     http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11952429

     “Jones will take four projects to Cabinet for his Working For Your Country scheme before Christmas, which will give beneficiaries a chance to work for at least the minimum wage in industries such as tree planting, riparian planting or regional railway development.”

     Hopefully connected will be the Labour commitment to increasing the minimum wage to being a living wage.
     • Sabine 2.4.1

       4 December 2017 at 10:27 am

       So the Taxpayer will pay the full minimum wage for the staff that private businesses refuse to hire otherwise?

       Can we call it ‘getting the dole for not hiring’ ?
     • millsy 2.4.2

       4 December 2017 at 10:34 am

       Details are needed, but this sounds a lot better than having young people hike around all day leaving their CV’s with employers who wouldn’t hire them anyway.
       • Sabine 2.4.2.1

         4 December 2017 at 10:49 am

         So now we are funding the employers to hire the people they don’t want to hire cause they would have to pay wages?

         Great, how much more taxes can you afford to pay in higher taxes to pay the wages for the local McDo to hire these ‘slaves for the dole”? And of course the dole will be taxed, so the poor slaves fund their own slavery program. Whats not to like ey?

         btw, there are a lot of ‘non’ young people that are on the dole. This program will then apply to these too. I am so looking forward to getting served by some 64 year old at the local fast food joint, working for the dole until retirement hits. Yei! Us!
         • One Anonymous Bloke 2.4.2.1.1

           4 December 2017 at 11:31 am

           So, um, given that Shane Jones says that in his “thoughts” they’ll be working for at least minimum wage…?
   • Rosemary McDonald 2.5

     4 December 2017 at 9:49 am

     “Yes there will be training need I say have a career map for these people driving licence right up to class 5 digger operators ….”

     Like this….?

     http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11952639

     I don’t normally watch the videos…but this one is seriously worth it.
3. BM 3

   4 December 2017 at 7:33 am

   Regional Development Minister Shane Jones wants welfare payments to be cut if beneficiaries refuse to take part in his new Government work programme, which will look to plant trees and build up a railway network for tourists.

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11952429

   I cannot see how Labour and the Greens could agree with this, it’s the complete opposite of what Labour and the Greens are all about.

   The fact the NZ First knows this and is still pushing a compulsory work for the dole scheme does rather demonstrate where all the power lies in this government.
   • One Anonymous Bloke 3.1

     4 December 2017 at 7:52 am

     Jones stressed that his preference of removing welfare entitlement still needed to be endorsed by Cabinet.

     Which demonstrates where all the power lies, and also that BM lies.
     • BM 3.1.1

       4 December 2017 at 8:00 am

       Rubber stamping more like.

       This compulsory work for the dole scheme no doubt makes up part of that 33-page document of dead rats Ardern refuses to release.
       • One Anonymous Bloke 3.1.1.1

         4 December 2017 at 8:08 am

         We’ll see. When we do, it will turn out that you have been lying.
     • cleangreen 3.1.2

       4 December 2017 at 8:03 am

       BM = always lies.
       • Nick 3.1.2.1

         4 December 2017 at 9:42 am

         BM=BuM
         • cleangreen 3.1.2.1.1

           4 December 2017 at 6:29 pm

           Thanks Nick;

           In this tense time, you made me laugh thanks for that.
   • Ad 3.2

     4 December 2017 at 9:20 am

     There are plenty of Labour people who would support it.
     We are at below 5% in overall unemployment, and we need all hands on deck if we are going to see trees planted.
     Government choking off immigration is also going to bring rest home workers into very high demand.

     Personally I want to see overall unemployment come down to 3%, and immigration choked, so that employers are forced to pay higher wages. So high that that there’s a much clearer step from benefit to wage and abatement triggers are less needed.

     My only caveat to Jones’ policy idea is that I would want both worker and employer to commit to 6 months minimum employment, with an option for a further 6 month rollover.

     Unemployment down, NEET numbers down, wages up, security up. productivity up. Yes.
     • Draco T Bastard 3.2.1

       4 December 2017 at 9:30 am

       Personally I want to see overall unemployment come down to 3%, and immigration choked, so that employers are forced to pay higher wages.

       And to train up NZers skills rather than relying upon importing them.
     • DoublePlusGood 3.2.2

       4 December 2017 at 11:25 am

       “below 5% in overall unemployment” – is that with, or without, the government’s massaging of unemployment figures to ignore people who aren’t looking for work, people who have insecure casual work, or are otherwise unemployed without being in the official numbers?
       • McFlock 3.2.2.1

         4 December 2017 at 1:17 pm

         Yeah, true that. 0-3% of regular unemployment is pretty much job churn, but with 1hr a week or month counting as “employed”? Who knows.
         • NewsFlash 3.2.2.1.1

           4 December 2017 at 4:39 pm

           None of the global entities like the World Bank, OECD, etc use unemployment figures from countries as a measure of unemployment anymore due to the high level of inaccuracy from using erroneous methodology.
   • cleangreen 3.3

     4 December 2017 at 10:29 am

     BM,

     Are you mis-representing the facts yet again here eh BM,
     mac1
     2.4
     4 December 2017

     Maci said on 2.4. this;

     “Jones will take four projects to Cabinet for his Working For Your Country scheme before Christmas, which will give beneficiaries a chance to work for at least the minimum wage in industries such as tree planting, riparian planting or regional railway development.”

     http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11952429

     So you misrepresented him. as saying ” build up a railway network for tourists.”

     So why did you deliberately signal only ‘rail for tourists’ and not freight?

     Mac1 said nothing about just for tourists’.

     Do you represent the road freight industry?

     Suspiously sounds like it.
4. Sanctuary 4

   4 December 2017 at 7:39 am

   Just listening to Guyon Espiner interviewing Jacinda. Oh. My. God. By the look of things, the next three years is going to consist of the media spending the entire length of every interview trying to foot trip Jacinda Ardern on a matter of semantics in relation to the coalition so they can triumphantly scream “DIVISION IN THE GOVERNMENT!”

   It is a depressing. A cynical obsession with horse racing politics and it seems to be one shared by both the MSM and the National party.

   Espiner spent nine years constantly saying “the minister declined our invitation…” Now he can get to talk to the PM, instead of the obsequious toadying we got whenever he interviewed Key we get a hectoring bully splitting hairs over taxonomy. White male syndrome strikes again.

   In six months, Espiner will again be droning saying “the minister declined our invitation…” and he’ll probably wonder why.

   The reason why will be Jacinda will get sick of lazy yellow journalism playing desperate word games to try and trump up divisions in the government. All we want is an informed journalist politely but firmly asking relevant questions about the pertinent issues of the day.

   That seems all to hard for the MSM in NZ these days.
   • cleangreen 4.1

     4 December 2017 at 7:58 am

     Yes Sancuary,

     I saw this also on TV3 with the “hypoventilating” Duncan Garner!!!!

     A discussing display he showed with our new PM Jacinda!!!!

     It was disturbing also, as Garner was gunning at the last part of the inverview on “The AM show” as garner was hammering the issue of the so called “33 page agreement between Labour and NZF” as he kept saying; are you lying’, are you lying, are you lying” until Jacinda settled him down from having a potential heart attack.

     “Give it up Michael” (credit to Vogel bread ad)

     Are these ‘anchors’ on drugs or someting?
     • Zorb6 4.1.1

       4 December 2017 at 8:31 am

       Reminds me,Vogels bread special today,28c for every second loaf.You buy the first one.
     • mary_a 4.1.2

       4 December 2017 at 1:27 pm

       Hi Cleangreen (4.1) … Acting on a complaint (not hard to guess from who that might be), the Ombudsman has been called in, re the release of the Labour/NZF 33 page coalition negotiation agreement.

       So it seems when a vindictive, bitter political party is unable to accept it lost the election and get its own way in the future, it will run to a higher power! That particular political party has now resorted to tittle tattling …. scum politics at its worst!

       I hope that same political party is forced to release details of its own negotiations!

       http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11952737
       • dv 4.1.2.1

         4 December 2017 at 1:35 pm

         SO when will the NATZ release their negotiation paper then?
       • cleangreen 4.1.2.2

         4 December 2017 at 6:33 pm

         100% mary-a.

         Yes nationals agreements with NZF and ACT also it would be fun to see what they signed up to eh?
     • rod 4.1.3

       4 December 2017 at 4:02 pm

       I think these ‘anchors’ are probably on something called ‘National Party pills’ .
   • Wyndham 4.2

     4 December 2017 at 8:17 am

     Well said Sanctuary.
     Espiner is more interested in petty point scoring than in providing listeners with what should be a more balanced view of the subject. I’m not sure whether his rude, argumentative, interruptive and totally unethical mode is due to strongly political bias or sheer incompetence. Maybe it’s sexist but, as you so rightly say, more time was spent trying to trip Jacinda up rather than on eliciting information.
     His interview ( ? ) with the Prime Minister of New Zealand this morning was an absolute disgrace by any standard.
     • Pat 4.2.1

       4 December 2017 at 8:39 am

       PM Jacinda Adern handled the interview well so Guyon will need to be better prepared if he wishes to ruffle her going by that performance….it appears that the strategy for dealing with opposition promoted dissent within the coalition is to allow a range of views but control the policy…and I think those outside the ‘beltway’ are accepting of that provided it causes no major issues…if they are taking any notice at all, after all its only 20 days until xmas.
   • vto 4.3

     4 December 2017 at 8:55 am

     “White male syndrome strikes again”

     FFS, stop with the knee-jerk racism and sexism. Every time a person happens to be white and male, this bullshit gets spouted without thought.

     You’ve got shit dribbling down your chin sanctuary

     [“Every time a person happens to be white and male”. No, it’s when behaviours associated with the dominant class are observed they get named (whether that gets over used or not is another matter). Your hyperbole is inflammatory. Please rethink how to express your points here – weka]
     • One Anonymous Bloke 4.3.1

       4 December 2017 at 9:12 am

       What? Are you offended by it? Stop being so PC.
     • RedLogix 4.3.2

       4 December 2017 at 9:37 am

       According to the approved and pure ideologies around here vto, only white males can be racist or sexist.

       So when you read slightly tedious stuff like ‘white male syndrome’ you just have to harden up and get a sense of humour. Besides it’s what I think is best called a ‘first-world problem’; suck it up mate 🙂
       • One Anonymous Bloke 4.3.2.1

         4 December 2017 at 9:45 am

         or sexist

         Haven’t seen that personally. Can you please link to an example?

         As for “racist”, I’ve seen Bill advance that argument, and make a pretty good case for it. I’m not sure when his view was declared “approved and pure” though.

         Nice strawman but. Will you be beating it up yourself or will you let vto have a go too?
         • McFlock 4.3.2.1.1

           4 December 2017 at 1:32 pm

           Yeah it’s quite an interesting argument, if I recall it correctly. I actually lean towards it, but not to the point of being absolutely convinced, if you know what I mean.

           I lean towards it just enough to STFU whenever I feel the urge to yelp “help, help, I’m being oppressed”. Because really, my “feeling oppressed” is almost always little more than my expectations, assumptions, and unjustifiable preferences being challenged.
           • tracey 4.3.2.1.1.1

             4 December 2017 at 4:15 pm

             “Because really, my “feeling oppressed” is almost always little more than my expectations, assumptions, and unjustifiable preferences being challenged.”

             Well put.

             Some groups in our society have a much longer history of oppression than others. Some imagine they are oppressed but confuse it with angry or disappoindte that things are not how they used to be for them.
       • Ad 4.3.2.2

         4 December 2017 at 11:03 am

         +100
         Plenty here try doxxing by framing commenters as CIS-dominant or white male.
         And of course, to show examples of that is to reverse doxx.

         Better rather if people make sure they have really good citations before making sweeping group-identity comments, of any kind.
         • weka 4.3.2.2.1

           4 December 2017 at 1:31 pm

           not sure what you are meaning by doxing there but it’s rare for people here to try and out other commenter’s RL IDs, including around gender. It happens occasionally and gets moderated.
         • tracey 4.3.2.2.2

           4 December 2017 at 4:16 pm

           Lots of words but fuck all meaning.
       • weka 4.3.2.3

         4 December 2017 at 1:56 pm

         @RedLogix,

         You’ve said today,

         According to the approved and pure ideologies around here vto, only white males can be racist or sexist.

         So when you read slightly tedious stuff like ‘white male syndrome’ you just have to harden up and get a sense of humour. Besides it’s what I think is best called a ‘first-world problem’; suck it up mate

         You said on October 16,

         And out of respect for my fellow authors and moderators, and because this topic clearly causes far too much disruption … I commit to absolutely never saying anything on any gendered topic ever again.

         https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-16102017/#comment-1400748

         You also reiterated this in the back end on October 16.
         • tracey 4.3.2.3.1

           4 December 2017 at 4:16 pm

           weka

           You probably misunderstood what RL meant. I have had that problem before, apparently.
         • marty mars 4.3.2.3.2

           4 December 2017 at 6:24 pm

           + 1
     • mauī 4.3.3

       4 December 2017 at 9:57 am

       One day you will have equality mate. Keep up the good fight. Equal pay, pay for voluntary care work, even an honorary seat at the council table is just around the corner for white men.
       • McFlock 4.3.3.1

         4 December 2017 at 1:32 pm

         lol
       • tracey 4.3.3.2

         4 December 2017 at 4:17 pm

         Touche
     • One Two 4.3.4

       4 December 2017 at 10:40 am

       VTO, keep standing up against the hypocrisy..

       None of it is necessary..

       You will likely get abused for standing up and pointing it out

       Rise above it..thus showing the way to the hypocrites..
       • tracey 4.3.4.1

         4 December 2017 at 4:19 pm

         You do not need to rise above it, anyone in the category of white male has had residence in the privileged towers looming over us all for thousands of years. The residence hasn’t changed it’s just people are knocking on the door asking to be let in rather than staying silent as the dogs are loosed.
         • Carolyn_Nth 4.3.4.1.1

           4 December 2017 at 9:13 pm

           Nice one.
   • Bill 4.4

     4 December 2017 at 9:32 am

     I didn’t hear the interview and probably won’t listen to it.

     Truth be told, almost all political interviews these days are a dance performed by true believers. They may disagree on the exact steps or the precision of the moves, but both interviewer and interviewee are dancing to the exact same tune.

     No-one questions ‘Why this music?’, ‘Why this dance?’ ‘What are we doing this for?’

     When political ideology becomes as crystalline as it is now, there is nothing much left to discuss or debate. And so we are subjected to word games and opinions on what clothes are worn – all passed off as critical analysis and measures of accountability or what not.

     It’s when the crystal shatters under the stress of its own internal forces – that’s when things get interesting. And the crystal always shatters.
     • RedLogix 4.4.1

       4 December 2017 at 9:41 am

       And that’s particularly well expressed Bill!

       It’s a bit like watching all five days of a test match, absorbing, diverting and sometimes dramatic … but don’t ask ‘what does it all mean’?
       • Bill 4.4.1.1

         4 December 2017 at 9:51 am

         Thank you Red. I should probably only ever comment over morning coffee. Things degenerate from here on out 🙂
         • RedLogix 4.4.1.1.1

           4 December 2017 at 10:06 am

           Bill,

           Change of topic, but this one got my attention big time. Look at those crazy sea temp anomalies. Six degC on the West Coast.

           What this may suggest is the deep cold oceanic current that surfaces along the Coast may have shut down. That could have big consequences …
       • cleangreen 4.4.1.2

         4 December 2017 at 11:35 am

         Yes Bill that was sheer brilliance expressed there.
     • Ed 4.4.2

       4 December 2017 at 10:07 pm

       So well expressed. Thank you.
   • Bill 4.5

     4 December 2017 at 9:49 am

     Okay. I listened to it.

     When someone is being as evasive as Jacinda Ardern is in that interview, what would you have an interviewer do Sanctuary? Accept ambiguity and avoidance as upfront and informative responses?
5. eco maori 5

   4 December 2017 at 7:50 am

   Many thanks to all the Maori organisation joining together to give us a better say in our future. And To hold the government’s accountable for there actions that have oppressed Maori. We need positive news about Maori we need positive Maori leaders and role models. I bet that if I had the money I could find and shape some one into a Maori superstar music artist. Be proud of OUR Maori culture and heritage. Kia kaha
6. Muttonbird 6

   4 December 2017 at 8:10 am

   Barely Sober calls Winston Peters ‘white’ in his latest shock-jock piece.

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11952064

   He’s either being deliberately provocative or ignorant, but probably both.
   • Ed 6.1

     4 December 2017 at 10:08 pm

     Barfly soaker.
   • OnceWasTim 6.2

     4 December 2017 at 10:10 pm

     “He’s either being deliberately provocative or ignorant, but probably both.”
     Well that’s all he’s got left in life really.
     I’ll be sending him dead flowers, but I’m sure HdPA won’t forget to put roses on his rotting corpse
7. alwyn 7

   4 December 2017 at 9:14 am

   Eugenie Sage will be very pleased.
   Nick Smith has now seen the desirability of something that the Green Party has been proposing.
   https://home.greens.org.nz/bills/kermadec-ocean-sanctuary-establishment-bill
   I expect that Nick’s bill will be very close to the Green Party proposal.
   With a combination of the Green Party votes and those of the National Party we should see the sanctuary implemented when Nick’s bill gets drawn and passed.
   Let us hope it comes up very quickly in the ballot.
   We have been waiting far to long.
   • Grey Area 7.1

     4 December 2017 at 9:21 am

     Your concern for the environment is heartwarming. As for Smith’s mischief-making ….
   • Ad 7.2

     4 December 2017 at 9:24 am

     It’s a smart wedge from Smith, and good pressure on Sage to crack a deal.

     The 9 year Key-English government was the worst for conservation in generations, with no new national parks formed, catastrophic biosecurity hits, and spectacular falls in wildlife populations whether tree, sea or airborne.

     Sage needs to deliver real goods on conservation, and now she gets to draft her own bill on the Kermadecs and pull the rug on Smith by guilting him into supproting the government on his own concept.
     • alwyn 7.2.1

       4 December 2017 at 9:59 am

       It was always National policy.
       https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/pm-announces-kermadec-ocean-sanctuary
       Easy-peasy. Just pass the bill with National and Green support.
       If Sage thinks she can do it with her own bill she will have to get Winston to agree and that is not likely to be forthcoming.
       He doesn’t have any control over a Private member’s bill though.
       • Macro 7.2.1.1

         4 December 2017 at 10:33 am

         Yeah – they were just too arrogant in their implementation of it, and so stuffed it up bigly.
         • In Vino 7.2.1.1.1

           4 December 2017 at 4:51 pm

           Alwyn – strange how easy-peasy rhymes with sleazy.
           • Ed 7.2.1.1.1.1

             4 December 2017 at 10:09 pm

             And greasy.
     • Nick 7.2.2

       4 December 2017 at 10:25 am

       Hi Ad, nick smith doesn’t do guilt. He only does Bullshit.
   • Sabine 7.3

     4 December 2017 at 9:43 am

     too sad that Nick Smith would not dare to come up with it when National was in power. Cause surely, if it would have protected the environemnt the Greens would have even then supported the policy. OH, but this is not about the environment?
     • alwyn 7.3.1

       4 December 2017 at 9:54 am

       It was always National Party policy.
       https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/pm-announces-kermadec-ocean-sanctuary
       The problem they had was that they couldn’t get Maori Party support and that made it impractical as it would have disrupted the Government.

       That is no longer a problem of course so that National can go back to do what they had always wanted.
       I’m sure that the Green Party will support it. We have been told that they have the ability to support things they are strongly for without being affected by anything like Cabinet collective responsibility as they don’t have any Cabinet members.
       Won’t be any problem there then and there needn’t be any problems like National had.
       • Psycho Milt 7.3.1.1

         4 December 2017 at 10:04 am

         The problem they had was that they couldn’t get Maori Party support…

         They couldn’t get Maori Party support for unilaterally removing part of a Treaty settlement? Gosh, I wonder why that was? What could the Maori Party have had against it? I guess it’s a mystery that will outlast humanity’s time on earth. Those damn Maori!
         • tracey 7.3.1.1.1

           4 December 2017 at 4:34 pm

           LOL
       • Ad 7.3.1.2

         4 December 2017 at 10:20 am

         There’s such a long distance between National Party policy and Nick Smith’s capacity to deliver anything though, isn’t there Alwyn?

         Sage as a fly will not be tempted into Smith’s web .

         I’m sure you don’t have to be reminded of the spectacular mess that Smith made of Key’s United Nations grandstanding proposal three years ago?

         Sage need only read out loud in Parliament Smith’s record on the matter, for his initiative to be seen for the mere game that it is.
       • Sabine 7.3.1.3

         4 December 2017 at 10:51 am

         oh my goodness, they could not get their partner to work with them?

         bwhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha National, useless at working with its “partners”.

         National, really good at excuses for not getting anything done.
8. eco maori 8

   4 December 2017 at 9:52 am

   I must be really getting at there egos A they are swarming me with marked cars like water off a ducks back now Ana to kai
9. Morrissey 9

   4 December 2017 at 9:59 am

   Tame and Faitaua: Language Enforcers on the Job!
   TVNZ1 Breakfast, Monday 4 December 2017, 8:05 a.m.

   The sports news features a remarkable clip of an Italian goalie rushing up during a corner kick and heading in the winner. The goal engenders delight and approval in the studio. Then this happens….

   HILLARY BARRY: [enthusiastically] I LOVE soccer when it’s like that!

   DANIEL FAITAUA: [playfully stern] Football.

   JACK TAME: [smiling, apologetic] Football.

   Hillary Barry, bullied into silence, obviously wants to respond but thinks better of it.

   …The programme limps on in its uninspired way….

   Now, you could safely bet Bill O’Reilly’s monthly whoring budget that neither Faitaua nor Tame actually calls soccer “football” in their normal off-camera conversations, and you could also safely bet that virtually none of their acquaintances does either. Yet this enforced charade continues on TVNZ, the result of a management decree from 2005 that soccer must henceforth be called “football”, in spite of what the plebs in the audience think. This decree is being increasingly abandoned and disrespected—for example, nearly all RNZ National commentators, including newsreaders, call it “soccer” in line with common usage when they are not actually required to read from a script. As Jim Mora complained in 2010: “Do we HAVE to call it ‘football’ now?”

   Of one thing we can all be certain: during his time as a U.S. correspondent based in New York, Tame never, ever, ever admonished (playfully or otherwise) any of his American colleagues for saying “soccer”. And you can bet he dutifully called that game “played” with helmets, where most “players” are not allowed to kick the ball, or indeed even TOUCH it, “football”.

   More Jack Tame idiocy…
   https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-26082015/#comment-1062913

   And Daniel Faitaua, that vacuous lump, should be doing some reading instead of badgering Hillary Barry about nothing….
   https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-13102016/#comment-1244029
   • Psycho Milt 9.1

     4 December 2017 at 10:06 am

     Has anyone contacted the PM for her thoughts on this important issue?
     • Morrissey 9.1.1

       4 December 2017 at 10:14 am

       Could be a major issue for the National Party to beat her with. I note they have nothing else in their armoury, other than attacking young defence lawyers for actually doing their job, and constantly repeating that Jacinda looks like a horse….

       https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2017/12/general_debate_4_december_2017.html/comment-page-1#comment-2091710
   • Pete 9.2

     4 December 2017 at 11:22 am

     I like how its the United States Soccer Federation and that how it’s always soccer there.

     I like how in Australia their national soccer team is called the Socceroos.

     I like it how when I call that sport “soccer” some people get angsty and want me to call it football. If it was such a foreign word they would’t even know what I was talking about.

     I’m still waiting for me to say soccer and the upset listener to fall on the ground and roll around clutching their leg appealing for a penalty!
   • tracey 9.3

     4 December 2017 at 4:36 pm

     When Hilary was growing up, and my generation it was soccer. Why? Because Rugby was what people thought of as football and footy, so maybe the youngsters could get a bit of context and a smidge of humility
     • Descendant Of Sssmith 9.3.1

       4 December 2017 at 5:50 pm

       Both rugby and soccer are football.

       Rugby football and Association football.

       Rugby and soccer.

       Not rocket science.

       Doesn’t make your brain hurt.

       Wikipedia references explain thus:

       The Laws of the Game were originally codified in England by The Football Association in 1863. Association football is governed internationally by the International Federation of Association Football (FIFA; French: Fédération Internationale de Football Association).

       In 1871, English clubs met to form the Rugby Football Union (RFU). In 1892, after charges of professionalism (compensation of team members) were made against some clubs for paying players for missing work, the Northern Rugby Football Union, usually called the Northern Union (NU), was formed. The existing rugby union authorities responded by issuing sanctions against the clubs, players, and officials involved in the new organization. After the schism, the separate clubs were named “rugby league” and “rugby union”.

       Ultimately where there is another football code that is dominant e.g. NZ, Ireland, South Africa, Australia then soccer will be used. Where association football is the dominant football game then football will be used.

       I suspect that some of the push to convince NZer’s and Australians to use football is based partly around an anti-rugby sentiment, partly around snobbery and anti-Americanism and partly around traditional soccer connotations of being “poofters” etc. The first and second not a good reason, the third I think highly pertinent – changing language can change responses and values.

       Alternatively you could just wait for the generations who made such negative connotations about soccer to die off.
   • Ed 9.4

     4 December 2017 at 10:11 pm

     Tame is awful.
10. Pete 10

    4 December 2017 at 10:12 am

    The comments about the PM on RNZ and the Garner show point to something to recognise.

    Every week the PM ‘has to’ appear in as many media spots as possible. She is there to be visible, to be held to account, to be seen to be available and accessible. The world has got to that stage, it’s what the people demand.

    Things of import to be discussed of course. What’s of importance? Everything, now it is everything.

    Here is the news: I do not need the Prime Minister in my home every day. I learned to turn the radio off when John Key came on zb and Radiosport. He came on so he could be ordinary John in our house, be one of the mates, be reassuring, bat away gentle questions about significant issues and not have to face a grilling about significant contentious issues. I never once heard anyone suggest he was a liar.

    He came onto RNZ when it was to his advantage. When it wasn’t, he was ‘unavailable.’

    Hosking was Key’s mate. Ardern is not. Ardern is Hosking’s enemy. As much as he was there to make Key look good, he is there to make Ardern look bad. Same as the Richardson fellow (Dick is it?) on Garner’s thing.

    But she has to appear, that is New Zealand the Way We Want it.

    We’ve had years of lying scumbags, we’ve the spectacle now of those like Simon Bridges being even less rational now than when he was a minister but know they’re all sitting at their tvs and radios hoping for the leg trips and any morsel they can use.
    • cleangreen 10.1

      4 December 2017 at 10:39 am

      We definately need TVNZ channel even back again now seriously if Labour coalition is to sell its policies to the electorate.

      Heres why; National lied then about the lack of popularity of TVNZ Seven then.

      Quote; “This was despite viewing figures that suggested half of all households with Freeview at the time were watching TVNZ7 – around 700,000 people – and not the 207,000 claimed by Coleman”

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TVNZ_7

      TVNZ 7 was a commercial-free New Zealand 24-hour news and information channel on Freeview digital television platform and on Sky Television from 1 July 2009. It was produced by Television New Zealand, which received Government funding to launch two additional channels.[2] The channel went to air just after 10am on 25 March 2008 with a looped preview reel. The channel was officially launched at noon on 30 March 2008 with a special “kingmaker” political debate held within the Parliament building and featuring most of the elected minor party leaders. The channel went off air at midnight on 30 June 2012 to the Goodnight Kiwi.
      It featured TVNZ News Now updates every hour from 6 am–11 pm, with a specialised rolling 10-minute bulletin ‘zone’ between 8 am and 9 am, throughout which six bulletins were aired. TVNZ 7 also featured an hour-long bulletin, TVNZ News at 8, at 8 pm each night. It was hosted on weeknights by Greg Boyed and on weekends by Miriama Kamo.
      While it was originally reported to be a ‘rolling news channel’, similar to Sky News and CNN Headline News, Eric Kearley, head of TVNZ’s Digital Launch team, stated about 70% of the schedule would be “factual variety” programming – a mix of local and overseas documentaries, and programmes that discuss current events and sport, with the remaining 30% being the news updates. A full schedule was released on 28 February 2008.
      The channel was relaunched on 1 March 2011, taking some programming from TVNZ 6, another Freeview-based digital channel, when TVNZ decided to transform into an interactive broadcast station TVNZ U.

      On 6 April 2011, it was officially announced that TVNZ 7 cease broadcast in June 2012.

      This was confirmed when Broadcasting Minister Jonathan Coleman stated on behalf of the government that they would not extend further funding for the channel due to low ratings.[3] This was despite viewing figures that suggested half of all households with Freeview at the time were watching TVNZ7 – around 700,000 people – and not the 207,000 claimed by Coleman.[4] In March 2012, Television New Zealand confirmed this decision and announced there would be no eleventh-hour reprieve for TVNZ7.[5]
      TVNZ 7 was replaced on 1 July 2012 by TV One Plus 1, a timeshift channel of TV One.
      • Grey Area 10.1.1

        4 December 2017 at 10:53 am

        TVNZ7 was starting to get some momentum so of course National had to kill it off.
        • cleangreen 10.1.1.1

          4 December 2017 at 11:49 am

          Yes Grey Area,

          You are right, Steven Joyce is NZ equivilent to a dicator who likes to contol the media voices of ‘alternatuive views’.

          Other countries like Turkey, China and other free press repressive counties often get bad rap by shutting down public media that questions governments.

          But in our case NZ was not challenged by shutting down of the popular TVNZ 7 channel sadly.

          So Labour please bring back TVNZ 7 again – for your political platform, and our collective benefit too please.
          • greywarshark 10.1.1.1.1

            4 December 2017 at 7:12 pm

            I wonder what is happening in Turkey as lovely keen experienced determined journalist’s death is being investigated. Yasmine Ryan 34. News says that it is not thought that her death was suspicious. It was a stressful job that she had, someone that does such stuff needs a haven I think to take a break and retreat for a while.

            https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/99478813/memorials-held-for-kiwi-journalist-yasmine-ryan-after-her-death-in-turkey

            A GiveALittle page set up by Jacinta Forde, who works at the University of Waikato with Ryan’s father Tom, said he had “left on the first plane to Turkey last night to bring her back home to New Zealand”.
            So far more than $11,000 has been raised.
            http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11952232

            https://asiapacificreport.nz/2017/12/04/tribute-to-a-nz-media-mentor-how-yasmine-ryan-taught-me-how-to-write/

            Incidentally there has been a memorial day started for journalists who lose their lives while doing their job – it is November 19 each year.
11. Sabine 11

    4 December 2017 at 10:33 am

    The sad thing is, we have jobs that need filling but society and private businesses don’t want to pay for.
    Our infrastructure needs updating, our hospitals need nurses, nurse aids and other carers, same for our elderly homes, our berms need mowing, our streets need cleaning etc etc etc..
    We have a severe lack of tradies of all sorts. Instead of throwing out incentives for Businesses to hire apprentices – and pay them a little – we are again putting the blame on unemployed for not finding a job in a society that refuses to hire, train and pay an honest day wage for an honest day of work.

    Yeah, let Shane Jones pass judgment on people who are at the lowest step of our society for not finding a job in this ‘rock star’ economy of ours.
12. savenz 12

    4 December 2017 at 10:54 am

    +++repost+++

    URGENT ATTENTION ALL ANTI-TPPA ACTIVISTS
    By Prof Jane Kelsey

    “We discovered less than a week ago that MFAT is hosting ‘consultations’ around the country, with David Parker, this week on the TPPA-11. It appeared to be a last-minute decision to do something before Xmas, and somehow they forgot to send invitations to critics who have attended previous ‘consultations’. Presumably the business sector was given priority notice. There is no information on the MFAT website, but we know at least about these:

    Dunedin: Monday 4 December, 5:15pm – 7:15pm, Otago Southland Employers Association, 16 McBride Street, South Dunedin: Register now

    Auckland: Tuesday 5 December, 6.00 to 7.30pm, Europe House, Auckland University of Technology, 56 Wakefield Street – Register now

    Tauranga: Wednesday 6 December, 8:45am – 10:45am: Smart Business Centre, Bay Central Shopping Centre, 65 Chapel Street Register now

    Hamilton: Thursday 7 December, 4:00pm – 6:00pm, PWC Building, Level 4, 109 Ward Street Register now

    The obvious reaction is WTF? There’s no urgency to do this, as the ministers are apparently not now going to meet during the Buenos Aires WTO ministerial on 10-13 December. That suggests the government has been running focus groups or polling which tells them that people are not buying their spin on the old/new TPPA-11 (please let’s NOT call it the CPTPP). Or that they still hope to get a deal they can settle the remaining four issues and sign in February or March. Consulting now would mean the government could do this, claiming it has consulted, and not try to rush something over January which would create more of an outcry. Then they will have the proper ‘consultation’, when it’s too late to do anything.

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2017/12/04/urgent-attention-all-anti-tppa-activists/
    • tracey 12.1

      4 December 2017 at 4:38 pm

      No wonder business leaders see themselves as messiahs and critics like Kelsey as pariahs… and now the new govt is feeding the same bullshit. Great news everyone. Business as usual but with a smile and an empathetic nod and donation.
    • cleangreen 12.2

      4 December 2017 at 6:56 pm

      Thanks savenz, ; so they are holding secret meetings to get their support to rush the TPP11 (or whatever it’s called for now) WTF @#$%^&*()_

      Bloody irresponsible of them to go behind our backs when they said & promised after comming back from Veitnam, they would take time to get the public input!!!!!!!

      No No No they lied there!!!!

      So start the ball rollimg, we need some finger pointing here now starting with David Parker. Shit they just had the water tax thing blow up in their faces and still are rushing to sign the blooody thing.@#$%^&*(()

      Never trust politicians we learned that today here.
13. savenz 13

    4 December 2017 at 12:12 pm

    sign of the times…

    Pollution stops play at Delhi Test match as bowlers struggle to breathe

    Sri Lanka say conditions in smog-hit Indian capital left players vomiting, and some of them took to field wearing face masks….

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/03/pollution-stops-play-at-delhi-test-match-as-bowlers-struggle-to-breathe
14. james 14

    4 December 2017 at 1:21 pm

    Good to see that the 33 pages of a “document of precision on various areas of policy commitment and development” and “directives to ministers with accountability and media strategies”. (according to the depuity PM)

    or “notes” according to the PM

    has been seen by the Ombudsman and he has written to Jacinda. A response is due in 5 days.

    No idea what he said of course – but if he recommends it being released – its going to be a very bad look not to do so.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11952737
    • Ad 14.1

      4 December 2017 at 1:25 pm

      Not a moment for coy embarrassment from Ardern doing a little defensive dance on semantics.

      It can’t be part of the “full and frank” exclusions because they weren’t Ministers yet.

      Get it out there.
    • dv 14.2

      4 December 2017 at 1:38 pm

      So James the Natz will or have? released their negotiation notes?
      • james 14.2.1

        4 December 2017 at 1:45 pm

        They do need to – its pretty obvious that they are not ministers.
        • Robert Guyton 14.2.1.1

          4 December 2017 at 3:08 pm

          I’d like to see those Nat notes; they’d show how ethical and honest the Party may or may not be. It’d be a great thing if they released their notes, you know, in the spirit of transparency and honesty. National are both of those things, aren’t they? Shouldn’t they show the people of New Zealand just how straight is the bat they play with? Hmmmmm?
          • james 14.2.1.1.1

            4 December 2017 at 3:27 pm

            How about you write to the Ombudsman and ask him?

            He will give a reply and advise – exactly the same as he did to Labour.

            I’m confident if they were told to release they would – cannot say the same about Jacinda.
            • Robert Guyton 14.2.1.1.1.1

              4 December 2017 at 3:40 pm

              ‘Cause National are such honest folk, James? Wouldn’t “forget, misremember, accidentally erase, refuse to speak etc, etc, etc?
              You’re right, of course, honest as the day is long, Key’s crew! And Bill! Taken up John’s torch! Protected Toddy the way Key protected him – that’s National; for you – Team All NZ Black (Inc), bro!
              • In Vino …

                4 December 2017 at 7:23 pm

                As I remember, Billshit when asked if he would release such documents refused to do so because of a confidentiality agreement that applied to all parties negotiating. Strangely enough, Double Dipper Billshit now seems to have forgotten about that confidentiality.
    • mary_a 14.3

      4 December 2017 at 1:39 pm

      James (14) … and I take it National will also release its negotiation details with Winston Peters/NZF. You know, good enough for one, good enough for the other, even more so if the complaint has come from National.
      • BM 14.3.1

        4 December 2017 at 1:46 pm

        Why? National isn’t in government, those notes aren’t worth jack.

        On the other hand, the NZFirst/Labour notes are because they are in government and what’s in them should be known to the NZ public as they will no doubt be on the receiving end of whatever arrangments are within these notes.
        • dv 14.3.1.1

          4 December 2017 at 2:11 pm

          “National isn’t in government

          Nor were Labour/greens either while negotiating.
          • BM 14.3.1.1.1

            4 December 2017 at 2:23 pm

            You do realise that this is an awful look for the government and just makes them look shady and that they’re trying to hide unpopular details from the people of NZ.

            For a government that proclaimed they are going to be the most transparent government ever this is just bullshit and undermines their credibility terribly.

            Thing is the media won’t let this go, they smell something dodgy and will keep digging away until they get what they want.

            Best to release it even if it is embarrassing.
            • dv 14.3.1.1.1.1

              4 December 2017 at 2:28 pm

              Nope.
              They are notes!!!

              So where are the NATZ note?

              You do realise that this is a terrible look for the NATZ and just makes them look shady and that they’re trying to hide unpopular details from the people of NZ.

              There fixed it BM
              • james …

                4 December 2017 at 3:28 pm

                You say they are notes – But Winston peters calls them “directives to ministers with accountability and media strategies”

                Who do you think knows best?
                • dv …

                  4 December 2017 at 3:30 pm

                  Ok lets call them writing on paper!!
            • dv 14.3.1.1.1.2

              4 December 2017 at 2:31 pm

              So where are the NATZ notes?

              You do realise that this is a terrible look for the NATZ and just makes them look shady and that they’re trying to hide unpopular details from the people of NZ.

              There fixed it BM

              Sorry about double up.
            • Robert Guyton 14.3.1.1.1.3

              4 December 2017 at 3:06 pm

              Everything smells dodgy to the media, ‘cept John Key; even his manure smelled of roses, apparently!
            • One Anonymous Bloke 14.3.1.1.1.4

              4 December 2017 at 3:20 pm

              tl;dr: David Farrar is so full of shit it’s overflowed into BM.

              Official Information Act S9(2)g:

              Other reasons for withholding official information:
              (g)
              maintain the effective conduct of public affairs through—
              (i)
              the free and frank expression of opinions by or between or to Ministers of the Crown or members of an organisation or officers and employees of any department or organisation in the course of their duty; or
              (ii)
              the protection of such Ministers, members of organisations, officers, and employees from improper pressure or harassment.

              cf: what Boshier says about ‘provocative’ advice.
          • james 14.3.1.1.2

            4 December 2017 at 2:56 pm

            Thats not the argument that is being made.
            • dv 14.3.1.1.2.1

              4 December 2017 at 3:00 pm

              I am!!
        • mary_a 14.3.1.2

          4 December 2017 at 3:35 pm

          BM (14.3.1) …
          Ah but the Natz were government during the negotiations with Winston Peters weren’t they? So as such, they have some responsibility for releasing their negotiations with NZF. Don’t you think?
        • Draco T Bastard 14.3.1.3

          4 December 2017 at 3:38 pm

          Why?

          In the interests of transparent government of course.

          National isn’t in government, those notes aren’t worth jack.

          Actually, they’re worth the same as the coalition agreement between NZ1st and Labour and for the same reason.

          We should know just what National were offering and why NZ1st said no.
        • cleangreen 14.3.1.4

          4 December 2017 at 7:12 pm

          BM “What’s good for the goose is good for the gander” 1/ So what do you think?

          2/ Is it o/k for James to say that National who want the 33 pages weren’t ministers?

          “They do need to – its pretty obvious that they are not ministers.”

          Doesn’t make any bloody sense!!!! Take your mate James off the drugs.
      • james 14.3.2

        4 December 2017 at 1:47 pm

        again – you seem to be confused.

        You know that National do not have to – as they are not ministers you see. The whole good for one is good for the other dosnt work – the government have a whole lot of things that they have to abide my that opposition does not.

        Of course that may also be the view of the Ombudsman regarding Labour – time will tell.

        BUT if it says they are to be released – Will Jacinda? – or will she go against him.
        • One Anonymous Bloke 14.3.2.1

          4 December 2017 at 3:22 pm

          Official Information Act S9(2)g as cited above. Boshier expands on this in his 9-noon interview.
          • james 14.3.2.1.1

            4 December 2017 at 3:29 pm

            Indeed. He may recommend that they are released – he may not.

            time will tell. But if he does recommend that they are released – its not going to look good for labour if they refuse.
            • One Anonymous Bloke 14.3.2.1.1.1

              4 December 2017 at 3:31 pm

              Whereas if he says they shouldn’t be released you will say it’s a bad look for the government.
              • james …

                4 December 2017 at 3:54 pm

                no. If he says that they should not be released – I will agree that Jacinda was right and that they should not be.
                • One Anonymous Bloke …

                  4 December 2017 at 4:01 pm

                  What she actually said is:

                  Yes, of course we made notes during the course of those discussions including further areas that we may undertake some work…some issues will see the light of day and at that point we’ll make sure that people are absolutely clear that that was part of our conversation with NZ First but others may not.

                  Which ties in with what Boshier says about ‘provocative’ advice and ‘blue sky’ discussions: once an idea becomes a policy commitment and then legislation, that is the appropriate time for public scrutiny and comment.
                  • james …

                    4 December 2017 at 4:27 pm

                    Ans Winston said of the same ‘notes’ that it was a: “document of precision on various areas of policy commitment and development”

                    with

                    “directives to ministers with accountability and media strategies”

                    But I guess its all moot – we just have to wait and see what happens.

                    But if he says it should be released – do you think that Jacinda should do so?
            • cleangreen 14.3.2.1.1.2

              4 December 2017 at 8:44 pm

              wrong again James,

              Ombudsman cant order anything James only advise. Not a bidding order he has no legal powers silly man.

              Labour should do what national always did!! just ignore his ‘advice.’
              he was a National stool pigeon anyway.

              he will say they should be released, so igniore the advice, & say ‘thanks but no thanks’ just as National always did. Done.
              • James …

                4 December 2017 at 8:58 pm

                I love how you correct me for something I didn’t say. I never said he could order them.

                You sill making shit up person you. I can only assume in your hurry to be clever – you just had to make shit up.

                As for your second lie about National always ignoring it – he states in the link already provided “It’s very rare that my decision is not complied with.”

                So I guess it’s all made up.

                But hey if he says release it and if labour don’t – then they will deserve the pasting they will get.

                Personally how rabid some on here are about it – I reckon you guys are scared about what’s in it.
        • Draco T Bastard 14.3.2.2

          4 December 2017 at 3:41 pm

          You know that National do not have to – as they are not ministers you see.

          They were ministers at the time that the negotiations happened.
          • james 14.3.2.2.1

            4 December 2017 at 3:55 pm

            Good point – perhaps you could make your own questions to get them released?
            • Robert Guyton 14.3.2.2.1.1

              4 December 2017 at 4:37 pm

              This would apply to National as well, James?

              ” Winston said of the same ‘notes’ that it was a: “document of precision on various areas of policy commitment and development”

              with

              “directives to ministers with accountability and media strategies”
              • James …

                4 December 2017 at 5:50 pm

                My argument would be the same as would my answer.

                If they are told to release them – then they should do so.

                I can see why that’s hard for you to understand
                • cleangreen …

                  4 December 2017 at 7:18 pm

                  No james you are without the smarts here.

                  Ombudsman decision is not binding silly fella.

                  They told us that the ombudsman is only offered as adviose not binding see the difference here.

                  Remember national saying “we dont always agree with the………….”

                  We have our own views.

                  Labour should say the same thing as this was only a fucking fishing experdition to stymie Labour so they should ignore the national; playing games .
                • OnceWasTim …

                  4 December 2017 at 10:22 pm

                  Did you forget to take Matty H’s instructions today @James?.
                  I think the RNZ still has a podcast up.
                  It was Matty H that pointed out (as DtB has above) that Bling and Choice were actually government Ministers at the time of negotiations (and leading them), and as such there is more of an onus on them (if not an equal one) to produce their ‘minutes’
                  • james …

                    5 December 2017 at 8:56 am

                    In your view.

                    And I said – if thats the case – they could make a complaint and see what the Ombudsman says about that.

                    If they are told to release them – then they should do so.

                    Can you say the same about Labour in this instance?

                    again, – I think a lot are scared about what is in these “notes”
        • tracey 14.3.2.3

          4 December 2017 at 4:42 pm

          What about from 2008, 2011 and 2014?

          Those docs must not be too flattering given even Hooten is saying the new Govt should not need to release what is effectively a political negotiating document not a public interest one… strange bedfellows on this one.

          If pre agreement negotiations are to be released as public interest, the TPP negotiation discussiondocuments must be due soon too?
          • cleangreen 14.3.2.3.1

            4 December 2017 at 7:24 pm

            Good point Tracey,

            But like I said we used an Ombudsman in a case and he awarded in our case but the government said they didnt agree with the ombudsmans views and ignored his advise and the ombudsman wrote and said his rulinng is not binding it is only advisory.

            Same thinf with Commissioners like the Parliamentary commissioer for the Environment, he ruled in our case but the government ignored his ruling too.

            This is national playing games just to spook us and dont take the bait.
    • Robert Guyton 14.4

      4 December 2017 at 3:01 pm

      When will Bill English release the text messages he sent to Glenys Dickson around the Todd Barclay “debarcle” and those he received from her? Not presenting them for scrutiny is a very bad look, don’t you think, James?
      • tracey 14.4.1

        4 December 2017 at 4:44 pm

        Or the TPP negotiation notes and briefings… they must be released too?
      • greywarshark 14.4.2

        4 December 2017 at 5:46 pm

        Hi Robert
        While you are looking at TS perhaps you would let me know if you ever got a copy of the Three Little Wolves and the Big Bad Pig that was talked about earlier this year? It is a great story, a turn-around on the status quo, by Eugene Trivizas, and inspiring to read to one’s grandkids. I’m interested if you managed to get hold of it.
        • Robert Guyton 14.4.2.1

          4 December 2017 at 9:29 pm

          Hi greywarshark -= thanks for the reminder. I just read it online and enjoyed it for sure. I was reminded of the story of Ferdinand the Bull – do you know it? Flowers feature there too, and peacefulness 🙂 This link is to the 1938 Disney version which is very good, imo.
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALYj24vKmR4
          • greywarshark 14.4.2.1.1

            4 December 2017 at 9:49 pm

            Dang I forgot everything is on line. Will have to go out and smell the flowers.
    • tracey 14.5

      4 December 2017 at 4:40 pm

      As this is such an important issue to you, the transparency of government formation agreements and prior negotiations, can you post a link to the previous 3 coalition notes of negotiations involving the Nats and their coalition parties. I have looked and cannot find them anywhere. Thank you in advance.
      • Psycho Milt 14.5.1

        4 December 2017 at 4:43 pm

        Cue cries of “Yeah but Labour promised transparency! It’s the hypocrisy I’m wringing my hands and concern-trolling you over…”
        • tracey 14.5.1.1

          4 December 2017 at 4:45 pm

          Ah but Key also promised greater transparency and honest than the Clark government… there is a recording on youtube of his interview in 2008 with Henry. he probably was lying though, which, apparently, is ok.
          • Psycho Milt 14.5.1.1.1

            4 December 2017 at 9:37 pm

            Hey, no-one ever accused right-wing trolls of having integrity…
      • greywarshark 14.5.2

        4 December 2017 at 9:48 pm

        tracey
        I believe that your comment in 14.5 above is directed at James who began this thread at 14. Is that correct?
        • tracey 14.5.2.1

          5 December 2017 at 5:41 pm

          Yes, apologies for confusion
15. repateet 15

    4 December 2017 at 2:04 pm

    Just Water CEO Tony Falkenstein says job hunters failing to show.
    “We just cannot get people to even turn up for jobs, let alone apply,” he said.

    I understand his feelings. Can he understand the feelings of people who put their heart and soul into applying for job, dream of getting it and how it will change their life then not even hear back from the employer when their application is unsuccessful in their application?

    I didn’t hear the interview with Leighton Smith. Since it was with Smith I wouldn’t be surprised if the tenor was one of “lazy a’hole unemployed.” And would be surprised there was any “lazy, unprofessional, a’hole employers.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11952703
    • ianmac 15.1

      4 December 2017 at 3:30 pm

      Smith is retiring this month. A woman will take is place. Forgotten her name.
      • veutoviper 15.1.1

        4 December 2017 at 3:35 pm

        Unfortunately Leighton Smith is not retiring until the end of next year (2018) not this year/month. Kerre McIvor will be taking over from him in 2019 under current plans.

        http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11952746
        • In Vino 15.1.1.1

          4 December 2017 at 4:54 pm

          Well, the swimming pool ain’t getting any deeper.
16. Ed 16

    4 December 2017 at 5:48 pm

    Hosking.
    A rent a gob for fascist interests.
17. joe90 17

    4 December 2017 at 6:27 pm

    This is fucking awful. The death toll from the October truck bombings in Mogadishu has topped 500, with dozens of people still missing.

    https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/12/02/567985077/mogadishu-truck-bombs-death-toll-now-tops-500-probe-committee-says?utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=news
    • Macro 17.1

      4 December 2017 at 7:06 pm

      God that is awful. You wonder what possesses people to do these things sometimes. I know life in Somalia is no garden of eden existence – and brutality is almost everywhere – but even so.
      • Incognito 17.1.1

        4 December 2017 at 9:52 pm

        I don’t think they are possessed but rather they’re lacking something …
18. cleangreen 18

    4 December 2017 at 7:32 pm

    We need to ignore all the side issues like Ombudsman crap, and the bulllshit press stuff.

    We need to concentrate on our task to assist labour to make the right desisions here, and now we need to tell them to rush their good policies for us through under urgency.

    We need to strongly tell labour we are not interested in their TPP 11 (or whatever it is called for now) – and tell them not sign that abortion right now until we all agree to the terms that benefit us and our rights first.
19. OnceWasTim 19

    4 December 2017 at 9:39 pm

    @The Chairman and @JC – because today’s open mike can so easily become yesterday’s fish and chip wrapper,
    the conversation begun yesterday from here https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-03-12-2017/#comment-1421812, down,
    and with reference to the latest Newsroom/Stuff effort:
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/99530117/immigrants-like-slaves-under-broken-system

    And even that is a mere tickle to an itchy scratch on the surface.

    As you said @JC yesterday: INZ need a rocket.
    I’m holding my breathe because I’m hoping Iain Lees-Galloway is up to it.
    So far I think he is, and I’m hoping he’s aware of the potential for his ‘officials’ to spin and bullshit like never before – and that some of them have become so used to it, they’ll do it straight-faced.
20. Ed 20

    4 December 2017 at 10:30 pm

    Why Society’s Biggest Freeloaders Are at the Top

    ‘This piece is about one of the biggest taboos of our times. About a truth that is seldom acknowledged, and yet – on reflection – cannot be denied. The truth that we are living in an inverse welfare state.

    These days, politicians from the left to the right assume that most wealth is created at the top. By the visionaries, by the job creators, and by the people who have “made it”. By the go-getters oozing talent and entrepreneurialism that are helping to advance the whole world…..’

    http://evonomics.com/no-wealth-isnt-created-top-devoured-rutger-bregman/

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