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Open mike 04/12/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, December 4th, 2019 - 73 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

73 comments on “Open mike 04/12/2019 ”

  1. Jenny How to get there 1

    Sounds like a win win.


    In my opinion the port land should be granted back to Ngati Whatua ownership as compensation for the years that we used to pour the citiy's sewerage into their hapu at Okahu Bay in what can only have been an attempted genocide.

  2. Robert Guyton 2


    James Shaw continues to impress; The Greens continue to gain significance.

    • It's a very astute move. Much like the Fiscal Responsibility Act – governments find it gets in the way of what they want to do, but it's still there because no prime minister wants to stand up in front of the media and say "We don't see any further need for fiscal responsibility." This will have the same effect – it's hard to imagine even a future National PM telling the media "We don't see any further need to consider effects on climate change when making decisions."

      • weka 2.1.1

        I hope you are right about National.

        • Robert Guyton

          National's M.O. is to support legislation through, but to promise to over-turn the controversial bits "once they get back into power".

        • Psycho Milt

          I may be over-optimistic, of course – I often am. However, over the last decade National's gone from fairly open AGW denial to having to at least pay lip service to it because voters' attitudes have shifted. It seems reasonable to assume future voters will punish AGW denial when they see it, so I'm hopeful future National PMs won't want to tell the media they're scrapping the need to take AGW into account in decision-making.

    • Gosman 2.2

      Relatively easy to get rid of that requirement. You just promise to reduce red tape and that becomes one of the areas of red tape you cut.

      • Psycho Milt 2.2.1

        A government could say the same about the Fiscal Responsibility Act – but they don't, because there's only so many stupid voters to go round.

        • Gosman

          How is the fiscal responsibility act Red tape?

          • Incognito

            Do you work for the CIA or the KGB? Or are you a Policeman by any chance?

            • dv

              Heshe spends so much time here, doubt heshe works.

              • Incognito

                I sometimes get the feeling that his incessant questioning is distracting us from better use of our time. Still, nobody is obliged to answer or even respond.

                • Gosman

                  LOL! I love the fact you think commenting on a blog without having to address right wing views is a better use of your time.

                  • Incognito

                    Notwithstanding your status as genuine muppet I/we don’t have to address “right wing views”.

                    To keep you off the street makes it worthwhile though, almost …

                • Wensleydale

                  The best plan is to treat Gosman like a rambling but mostly harmless drunk outside the local Four Square. Despite his interminable queries, he's not actually interested in the answers. He's just waiting for you to stop typing so he can say, "Yes, but…" He's also incredibly lazy and refuses to do any of his own research. Still lives with his mother I suspect. "Gosman, you great lump! If I've told you once I've told you a hundred times, go and get the bins back in off the road!"

                  • greywarshark

                    I don't think he had as tough a mama as Joe Dolce – Whatsa Matter You – Hey! She would have made something of him, but sadly no.

                  • Incognito

                    I’d rather much like to put him into Moderation to give others a chance to write comments that are not influenced by or a direct response to his manipulative lines of questioning. He tends to dominate discourse on a bad day and derails posts. As such, I think he’s a negative influence on discourse here and sniping at him is not a substitute for robust debate although it may seem so. He seems to think that we should address (his) “right wing views” on this blog and that this is best use of our time! https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04-12-2019/#comment-1670758

                    I’m not sure whether he’s delusional or Machiavellian but I absolutely disagree with him for reasons outlined in Weka’s post, among others.

                    • greywarshark

                      He does bring out creative responses but as you say they deflect us from applying our hopefully higher intellect to exchanging relevant information and having cogent conversations about the near future, which we want to keep pushing off for a decade, two, a century, but can't.

            • OnceWasTim

              He works (or rather, is employed)

          • Psycho Milt

            How is the fiscal responsibility act Red tape?

            For that matter, how is Shaw's proposal red tape? My claim is that the two are similar in that they impose compliance costs on the government and potentially restrict what it would prefer to do (if it wants to avoid bad publicity). The claim that one of them could be dismissed as red tape was yours – so, why would one easily be dismissable as red tape but not the other?

  3. A 4

    Now is not the time for this…apparently red tape gaining in strength. Duty of care should apply to everyone


    • mpledger 4.1

      It looks like the boy went with his godfather (or similar) to the doctors not with his parents. The parents need to give permission for the vaccination, the doctor can't give it on the say-so of a godfather (or similar).

      What if the kid had a really bad reaction to the vaccination and the doctor didn't have permission from the parents – there would be a big hue and cry and the doctor would be in big trouble.

      The child can get a vaccination when he gets home.

      • Psycho Milt 4.1.1

        Yep – parents tend not to be keen on other people doing stuff to their kids without consulting them. I can't picture many of them seeing that requirement to get permission as being "red tape."

        • Sacha

          I'm pretty sure the requirement is consent from parent or guardian. And the story did not mention that being the problem.

          It could be that both the journalist and the boss of the Ministry of Health were misinformed about that but there are simpler answers like a clinic misinterpreting eligibility for vaccinations.

          • weka

            Not sure how easy it would be to give consent in that situation (parents are overseas), but certainly doable.

            Could have been both issues and busy staff not taking the time to sort it out. Still not good.

      • ianmac 4.1.2

        Good to see mpledger that there is more to this story than a simple refusal.

      • weka 4.1.3

        The article says they were refused because the child didn't have a NZ passport.

        • dv


          Director General of Health Ashlee Bloomfield said children under 18 were eligible for publicly-funded immunisations, regardless of citizenship or immigration status in New Zealand.

          That would suggest? the clinic got it wrong.

          • weka

            Yes, looks like a mistake.

          • pat

            there was feedback on Checkpoint last night that advice was contrary to what GPs had been told previously

          • greywarshark

            A clinic under contract? There's not to reason why – just stick to the directives. They have to comply or can miss out on next retendering or whatever. Government does much at arms length now, not hands-on.

        • McFlock

          also says:

          said while he understood precautions were taken around not immunising a child that wasn't theirs, he felt more could've been done.

          Could be a bit of both, and the passport thing was a handy excuse at the time to avoid more paperwork.

          • Sacha

            OK, I apologise that I missed that – does sound like consent was at play as well.

            Auckland clinics are under pressure to check residency status as too many people claim funded treatment that they are not eligible for. Sounds like immunisation is the opposite of everything else, so I would not be surprised that an individual practitioner or clinic got it wrong.

            • weka

              Hopefully they'll be reviewing their processes after this.

            • McFlock

              That explains a lot, too.

            • Sacha

              Latest RNZ story includes 5m audio of interview with the uncle – very articulate and level-headed about the situation: https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018725408/shock-as-samoan-toddler-denied-mmr-vaccine-in-auckland

              The clinical director of Procare – the primary health organisation that oversees the clinic that denied Frederick the vaccination – apologised that the toddler was not given the shot.

              Dr Allan Moffitt told Checkpoint the clinic had understood because Frederick was not eligible for normal health services that he did not qualify for immunisation.

              "But in fact the immunisation schedule has always been clear about this, that non-New Zealanders qualify for immunisation & [under-18s] for free vaccinations. They gave the dad [uncle] the wrong advice."

  4. Ad 5

    Hey Sanctuary nice work on the baked snapper and baked salmon last night.

  5. gsays 6

    A big congratulations to Kane Williamson and the team for the second consecutive series win over England.

    A lot was made of our batters (I thought the term was batsman), but for me the bowlers were the heroes.

    They dismissed the opposition three times in two tests. Not an easy feat on our lifeless tracks. As the English bowling attack will testify.

    Now to Aussie, who have vanquished a below par Pakistan. They will have their tails in the air, which will be all the more satisfying should we prevail.

    Cricket at senior levels here has never been in better shape.

    • alwyn 6.1

      "I thought the term was batsman".

      Careful, the feministas will be after you. The words is "batsperson" or "batspeople".

      None of your sexist claptrap. They were bloody good though weren't they.

      As for Australia having their tails in the air. That will be because they have their heads in the sand. They won't see us coming. Well I hope so anyway.

      • Stuart Munro. 6.1.1

        It's Batman – 644 million hits – batsman only gets 33.5 million.

      • Descendant Of Smith 6.1.2

        The Latin manus from which man comes means hand.

        Works for either gender.

        • alwyn

          Yes. Well I know that, and you know, that but people like the esteemed members of our Parliament don't seem to.

          Here is an example of one of the Parliamentary Select Committees. See what the mad duck has as a title.


          It isn't Chairman, it is Chairperson.

          I rather wish it was the awful alternative of "Chair" I do think he should be sat on, hard.

        • In Vino

          Descendant of Smith – that is true in the case of a word like 'manipulate' or 'manoeuvre' but it is not true in the cases of 'batsman' or 'chairman'.

          I am deeply surprised that you didn't know that, alwyn.

          • Incognito

            My example would be manner, which does not mean more manly.

          • Descendant Of Smith

            I did know that but was being a bit mischievious. Manus fits nicely with the actual item in this case, particularly as the hand is considered part of the bat for dismissals.

            Manus is much more fitting in that context.

            • alwyn

              A good recovery DOS.

              I, like you, thought it came from the Latin.

              Vino has surprised me. He actually knows something. I would say that is the first time I have seen him say anything informative. Bravo Vino!

    • Gabby 6.2

      The bowlsmen did a fine job gsaysie.

    • millsy 6.3

      Australia are going to be pretty tough to beat in their own backyard, so we are going to have a put in a very disciplined effort.

      This is a huge turnaround from this time 25 years ago, when the team was basically in chaos and fell apart on that tour of RSA. That shambolic 94/95 season, with all the egos, politics and vendetta's had a long lasting impact that the same has only just recovered from in the past few years.

      • gsays 6.3.1

        True to the progress.

        My reckons has us as a disciplined outfit. They also have us playing a not entirely united Ocker outfit, with a skipper coping clickbait musings from the outside.

  6. Andre 7

    The House Intelligence Committee has released their report about the Combover Con's attempted extortion of Ukraine.

    Couple of points of interest: it details how deep into the middle of it the Committee's ranking Repug, Devin Nunes, actually was and is, and it details the connections between Dolt45's personal Nosferatu Giuliani, the Ukrainians Parnas and Fruman, and John Solomon, writer of many Trumputinlican talking points beloved of loonier lefties seeking to deflect attention from the extortion racket and its beneficiaries.


    • joe90 7.1

      Lots of fun to be had.

    • Macro 7.2

      Just a small excerpt from Adam Schiff's Preface to the report.


      At the center of this investigation is the memorandum prepared following President Trump’s July 25, 2019, phone call with Ukraine’s President, which the White House declassified and released under significant public pressure. The call record alone is stark evidence of misconduct; a demonstration of the President’s prioritization of his personal political benefit over the national interest. In response to President Zelensky’s appreciation for vital U.S. military assistance, which President Trump froze without explanation, President Trump asked for “a favor though”: two specific investigations designed to assist his reelection efforts.

      Our investigation determined that this telephone call was neither the start nor the end of President Trump’s efforts to bend U.S. foreign policy for his personal gain. Rather, it was a dramatic crescendo within a months-long campaign driven by President Trump in which senior U.S. officials, including the Vice President, the Secretary of State, the Acting Chief of Staff, the Secretary of Energy, and others were either knowledgeable of or active participants in an effort to extract from a foreign nation the personal political benefits sought by the President.

      The investigation revealed the nature and extent of the President’s misconduct, notwithstanding an unprecedented campaign of obstruction by the President and his Administration to prevent the Committees from obtaining documentary evidence and testimony. A dozen witnesses followed President Trump’s orders, defying voluntary requests and lawful subpoenas, and refusing to testify. The White House, Department of State, Department of Defense, Office of Management and Budget, and Department of Energy refused to produce a single document in response to our subpoenas.

      Ultimately, this sweeping effort to stonewall the House of Representatives’ “sole Power of Impeachment” under the Constitution failed because witnesses courageously came forward and testified in response to lawful process. The report that follows was only possible because of their sense of duty and devotion to their country and its Constitution.

      Well worth a full read.

  7. greywarshark 8

    Interesting deep thinking from the RSA UK April 2019 about what the Brexit furore has revealed about a country splintering and ponders the way forward.

    …Climate change, an ageing society, the impact of new technologies, inequality. These are complex challenges that need to be addressed, but revolve around deep clashes of interest and values. Our democracy seems unready to meet them. Our society without enough of a common language or shared assumptions, lacking a widespread ethos of belonging and solidarity….

    Can we do more than coexist?

    At some point we are going to have to decide to do more than coexist. We are going to have to decide whether it's worth trying to find an answer to the fundamental question we've found ourselves incapable of even asking: what binds us? and what does that offer us and ask of us in return?

    And if we don't start finding some good answers to those questions soon then our future is likely to be determined by a series of reflexive spasms of many different kinds. And some may be ugly.

    After decades of heightened inequality, increasing culture wars, deeper tribalism, geographical inequity, alienation, economic insecurity, and generational disconnect, have we become incapable of imagining a different future for society? Maybe that's the answer: rediscovering our collective imagination.

    • Bruce 8.1

      Public transport , it's very hard to hate the person sitting next to you on the train with a different hat, when you can see at close range he's just the same as you. Whereas our everyman for himself neo liberalism, that barstad in the other steel box that never learned to drive as I did is very easy to dislike.

      • greywarshark 8.1.1

        It would be nice to bring back courtesy and gratitude. I move over and stop to allow you through a tight gap, and you give a quick hands up in response. To take note of the others on the road by you would be a change. Instead if there is a tight gap the other car will continue its speed and flash through with centimetres to spare, if lucky, unwilling to slow even slightly and recognise that the road is a shared space.

        I see the police setting a good example again. /sarc Quite unconcerned, if you don't stop when we ask you we won't feel bad if you die, your fault not ours. We can commit manslaughter as we have a get out of jail free card. And if someone else gets hurt that is just an economic externality. And in our country economy we all are expendable at the end of the day.


        Waitemata Acting District Commander Inspector Shanan Gray said the cyclist's death was a tragedy.

        She has urged anyone who is signalled to stop by the police to do so immediately.

        The Canadian Mounties have a motto that they always get their man (or woman) but we apparently have a dour approach, that NZ Police will not stop till they have got some body, though not necessarily the right body.

    • Incognito 8.2

      I’ll have to read the link later but IMO the question is not the right one. Instead: what separates us?

  8. greywarshark 9

    From the express uk – Iam unable to read it but even the headline is worth noting,

    Brexit news: Varadkar blow as Ireland to LOSE 'privileged …

    https://www.express.co.uk › News › Politics

    11 mins ago – THE IRISH Government will lose “privileged access” to Brexit negotiations on talks on a future trade deal between the UK and EU get under way in what is a fresh blow to Prime Minister Leo Varadkar. … Ireland has been central in the three years of intense Brexit talks and meetings as …

    Brexit from aljazeera:
    30/11 – UK election: Anger in Belfast over Boris Johnson Brexit plan
    Why divided communities in Northern Ireland are uniting against PM Boris Johnson’s Brexit plan.

    Now – Northern Ireland: Two more arrests over ‘New IRA’ mortar bomb
    New IRA members planned to attack police with the improvised device, said detectives.
    The former customs post which regulated border traffic between the towns of Strabane in Northern Ireland and Lifford in Ireland is the sort of place experts fear could be a target if a border is reimposed [Clodagh Kilcoyne/Reuters]

    Johnson might think that he’s a movie hero about to zoom through Brexit like an Easy Rider, but he has failed his screen test. This is the real thing up for sale. Perhaps he should turn his money to something of value.

  9. Peter 10

    Simon Bridges in the House saying the Government's performance was like Where's Wally.

    Well, give that man a mirror, he sure as hell don't need a GPS to find Walter!

  10. adam 11

    Sounds about right – Neoliberalism only has one place to go.


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  • Defence Minister visits Ukraine and Poland
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  • Stuart Nash to attend OECD meetings
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  • Speech to the Asia New Zealand Foundation
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