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Open mike 05/02/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:40 am, February 5th, 2015 - 256 comments
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256 comments on “Open mike 05/02/2015 ”

  1. North 1

    Silly me. For years I’ve taken Margaret Thatcher’s claim – “there is no such thing as society” – as a mark of her moral corruption. No no no ! All the time it was a beautiful “tapestry” of which she spoke.


    I guess her close insider Sir Peter Morrison and the toff-shy police force of the day reflected that beautiful tapestry.


    And what a howler the lashings of exhortation to personal responsibility !

  2. gsays 2

    morena everyone,
    here is an idea for those who will be at waitangi.
    to simply demonstrate your disapproval of mr key and his governments’ action/inaction on:
    child poverty,
    the environment,
    the economy,
    sending troops to someone elses war,
    housing etc.

    when he speaks, quietly turn your back.
    when his vehicle goes past, turn your back.

    i have to leave the laptop shortly and in case this idea gets questions asked of it, there is this.

    • Pete George 2.1

      A reasonable approach to protest but reasonable does not usually equal results.

      a) Key is unlikely to care if he happens to notice
      b) The media are unlikely to care and they dictate what gets attention.

      ‘Ten people turned their backs’ is far less likely to attract interest than ‘one person spat’. A sad fact of media dominated politics.

      • Ad 2.1.1

        Nearly lost the New York Mayor his job.
        And it is exceedingly televisual, which is all that counts in Waitangi.

        • SHG

          Nearly lost the New York Mayor his job.

          The only reaction I saw in the media was “fuck those disrespectful fucks and fuck whatever it is they’re complaining about”

      • North 2.1.2

        You’re counseling spitting to register effective protest then are you PG ?
        So that you can clutch your fucking pearls all weekend thereafter ?
        As though it were you got it in the eye ?
        Yeah I know you’re not counseling spitting.
        You’d rather there were no protest.
        Protest challenges YourGodKey.
        And the Settled Order – Hue George.
        Quibble as much as you like.
        That’s your truth.

      • phillip ure 2.1.3

        “..‘Ten people turned their backs’ is far less likely to attract interest than ‘one person spat’. ..”

        fact one:..there are far more than ten people..

        fact two:..a mass turning of backs as a means of non-violent protest..

        ..is powerful both practically and visually…

        ..and one the media/cameras wd record/report on..

        ..as usual..p.g..u.r. full of shit..

        • Tiger Mountain

          …yes, group back turning is strongly symbolic; as was Journalist Muntadar al-Zeidi’s shoe throwing at Dubya Bush in 2008…

      • weka 2.1.4


      • Tracey 2.1.5

        What would you recommend? Chat to their local MP at Waitangi?

    • One Anonymous Bloke 2.2

      It’s a good idea Gsays – the beige parrot has no more clue about effective politics than he does of effective fact checking.

    • Tracey 2.3

      It is a good idea and needs to go out via ttwitter amongst other things. I don’t DO twitter so cannot help in this regard.

      Even if the media dont catch it in time they will simply get the people to re create the moment for them to film.

    • just saying 2.4

      What a brilliant idea.
      Effective, simple, and very Martin Luther King.

    • Jo 2.5

      Snap! Yesterday I began a comment suggesting this but the day got away on me… thank goodness for like minds.

      – A Mexican wave of turning backs as the cavalcade passes
      – Simple to do, action without violence, or speaking (impossible?)
      – Visual gold for the cameras if enough people do it
      – as good as a wave of laughing and pointing…

      • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 2.5.1

        Yes, people must turn their backs on the prying and lying twit.
        Do it not just for the cameras but for the country, our increasingly unequal society, our environment, our families, our squeezed communities, and our future generations. And most importantly, do it for ourselves for willing to make a stand on ethics, integrity and the public (not corporate, bankster or casino) interest.

        • gsays

          hi kiwiri and jo and others,
          the most important aspect of this, imo, is the power it gives to those in the group who turn their backs.

          they dont see the news, they dont know what mr key thinks…
          they get the feeling of being a part of a community and experience what happens when we cooperate.

          i am not a twitterer nor a face booker but anyone is welcome to run with this.

  3. the one aspect of this handwringing/we must go to help them! drive to war..

    ..is that these countries’ neighbours are oil-rich/armed to the teeth..

    ..why do we have to go and fight there ‘to protect them’..?

    ..are you fucken kidding me..?

    ..they have the means/arms to help themselves..to sort out their own problem.

    ..and if we were in some strife down here..

    ..would they come down here to help us…?

    ..we all know the answer to that is:..’no’…

    ..so i repeat..

    ..why the fuck is there this (supposed) imperative for us to make those financial/human-sacrifices..

    ..we are going to fight to protect oil-rich/human-rights-abusing dictators..

    ..for why..?

    • gsays 3.1

      hi phil, it’s time for anyone in favour of this move to have nicky hager’s other people’s wars read to them.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 3.1.1

        read to them


      • phillip ure 3.1.2


        ..i wd really like someone in the mainstream/corporate-media to ask those questions..

        ..those why the fuck are we going to fight to ‘protect’ oil-rich/armed-to-the-teeth/human-rights-abusing dictators-questions..

        ..they are big/ugly/armed-up enough to take care of their own business..

        ..but i’m not holding my breath..waiting for those questions from our m.s.m./corporate-media shills..

        ..they just seem to nod-along to the war-mongering spin/bullshit being fed them by key..

        ..unthinking/unquestioning-fools/corporate-tools…that most of them are..

    • vto 3.2

      mushrooms phil mushrooms

      being kept in the dark and fed bullshit

      everyone has been on mushrooms

      there is no logic, no morality, no credibility to be seen

      the US created this mess, let them sort it out. let them remain the targets of their own creation.

      you know who should be arming themselves and going – the Bush family.

      Get the f$#^&g Bush family to deal with it, not our children in whanganui, te kaha, kerikeri, gore, seddon and masterton – we have nothing to do with it

      • Tiger Mountain 3.2.1

        If NZ must be forced to be involved by dear leader’s subservience to the yanks, how about bringing back conscription; the pool to consist solely of males aged 45–65 years, residing in Parnell and Remuera, Auckland.

    • nadis 3.3

      “..would they come down here to help us…?”

      Be interesting to make a list of countries that would.

      PI Nations
      SIngapore (small maybe)
      Malaysia (big maybe)

      • Tracey 3.3.1


      • phillip ure 3.3.2

        i think you are being very optimistic there..nadis..

        ..even when we were in that military-treaty thing with the u.s..

        ..there were no guarantees in that treaty that america wd automatically come to help us were we facing some danger..

        ..it was carefully worded to avoid committing america to that..

        ..i think the only/main factor to drive america to move..

        ..wd be to protect their scummy five-eyes kit/infrastructure..

        ..their guantanamo bay here..

        ..and certainly not to just ‘help’ us because of any moral/historical-imperatives..

        ..anyone who believes counter to that – is deluding themselves..

        • vto

          They would come down here but not because of us. They would come down here for the strategic geographical position close to Antartica and Australia and for our natural resources.


          • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark

            strategic geographical position close to Antartica

            My geologist friend said something similar.

            NZ is very strategically important to influence or control because it is the stepping stone to the resources of Antarctica.

            • vto

              Yep exactly. And colonial rawshark below has it right about the importance of us having the right sort of defence / protection capabilities ……..

              The bottom of the world is rapidly increasing in value to humanity

        • crashcart

          And who they fuck are they helping to defend us from? Is Fiji looking to invade NZ? Honestly we sit in the bottom of the pacific with so many nations between us and any conceivable threat that any attack that might reach us is going to have to go through the US or Australia anyway. If it did come to us being under attack then the US, AUS, and all those pretty allies are already gone. We probably would have lost our defence force fighting with them long before the threat reached NZ.

          • nadis

            er…. it was a hypothetical. sorry to get you so worked up.

            • crashcart

              The problem is that the hypothetical is the exact reason used be people trying to push us into war. i.e if we want them to be there for us when we are under attack we have to be there for them when they are attacking. It is just unbelievable.

              • Colonial Rawshark

                NZ needs to have its own independent highly capable area defence forces, as well as the ability to project military power into the nearby Pacific and southern oceans.

            • phillip ure

              that’s ok nadis..

              ..you did well in helping expose that rent in the official war-story…

              ..a special (involuntary)-assistant-award will be couriered to you..

              ..(you should treasure it..nadis..it is rare for rightwingers to get these..

              ..one to keep/show the grandkids..eh..?..)

              ..keep up the good work..!

              • nadis

                I don’t even know what you are talking about. Not sure if it is the lack of grammatical structure or the pot. Could be both.

  4. North 4

    You’re an unpatriotic hua VTO. I say let’s exercise some personal responsibility and give it the Max.

    • vto 4.1

      Actually North, if you think about it my view is completely patriotic and it is those like yourself who are unpatriotic whores..(but I suspect you’re pulling my tit)

      You may wish to consider a further view I have, from yesterdays “Now its family?” thread….

      “Is this the same “family” that refused to stand by us when the French committed an act of terrorism in Auckland in the 1980’s?… yet demanded we stand by it over Salman Rushdie?

      Is this the same “family” that sent us to our certain deaths at Gallipoli in WWI?

      Is this the same “family” that refused to provide support for us in WWII?

      Is this the same “family” that has been an imperial and occupying and invading army in the middle east for god knows how long, causing misery and destruction and death?

      Is this the same “family” that nuked the shit out of our part of the world in the 1950s and later?

      Is this the same “family” that has totally shat on Te Tiriti and its partner thereof?

      Is this the same “family” that has completely shat on my own true family in parts of the world in recent centuries? To such an extent we were driven out?

      Is this fuckwit for real?

      FUCK OFF BRITISH WANKERS… don’t you realise some of us came here to escape you cunts. Piss off

      I offer you NOTHING ….

  5. Tracey 5

    Justice Lowell Goddard (NZ JUdge) has been appointed to head an inquiry into sex abuse claims in the UK ahead of 149 other candidates.

    If their equivalent of their Justice Minister doesn’t like what she concludes will he/she just publicly rubbish hers like our former Justice Minister did with Canadian Judge Binnie? Would “we” be outraged?


    • Treetop 5.1

      Over 100,000 survivors, the inquiry will go on for years. I have also heard in the media that a paedophile ring operated within the government in the 1980’s. This week there were mass sackings within the Birmingham City Council (over the last 4 years sackings as well) due to failing to protect children who were sexually assaulted.

      The structure in Britain appears to be different as social workers work for the city council.

      I want justice and recognition for historical sexual assault/abuse survivors. This will help current cases, by not making the inexcusable errors made in the past.

    • framu 6.1

      gossman being a predictable time waster and cherry picker

      Open mike 05/02/2015

    • mickysavage 6.2

      All to do with the price of oil Gosman and nothing to do with the quality of the Government.

      • Gosman 6.2.1

        Other nations relying on oil such as Norway and Saudi Arabia aren’t suffering as badly. The question is also why is Venezuela so heavily dependent on a single industry (more so now than before the Chavist regime took over)? Surely the Socialist revolution would have unleashed to potential of the poor and downtrodden and they can make their own toilet paper and medicines and not rely on imports. Instead they are more dependent on importing essentials now than ever. That suggests a serious failure of economic management.

        • crashcart

          Why is New Zealand so reliant on the dairy industry? Surely this capitalist nation should have allowed compition to unlock high tech high value markets.

          • Gosman

            Two points.

            New Zealand does not rely on Dairying for 95% of export income. It is well under 40%.

            New Zealand’s Dairy industry increased production during the Dairying boom. Venezuela’s oil production was static during the boom over the past 5 or 6 years.

            • crashcart

              Are you saying that if there was a crash in the dairy market it would have no major negative effect on our economy? If the answer to that is no then you other two points in no way counter what I said. If the answer to that is yes you are delusional.

              • Gosman

                It would have an impact it is true. Indeed we are seeing that recently as the price of Milk has dropped by around the same percentage as the price of oil. I don’t notice a shortage of toilet paper and condoms in NZ though.

            • ropata:rorschach

              Nothing to do with trade sanctions by the USA to punish Venezuela for electing a dreaded socialist?

              • Gosman

                Venezuela is able to trade with nations other than the US. It is also not prohibited from trading with the US.

                Your link was about targeted sanctions on certain individuals not on trade between the two nations generally. I also note it has yet to be signed in to law.

                BTW Zimbabwe blamed their economic collapse on the same thing back in the early 2000’s

                • nadis

                  The problem in venezuala is actually corruption. Not socialism, not capitilism, not the US. The government is a corrupt cabal of cronies who enrich themselves at the expense of wider society. They wrap themselves in the language of socialism but are no different to the politiciians who run every failed or failing state around the world. Corrupt.




                  • Gosman

                    Depends on how you define corruption. The issue with shortages in the Venezuelan economy is to do with an official exchange rate that does not reflect market reality and price controls.

                    The Venezuelan currency is seriously overpriced and as such it makes sense to use it to buy USD if you are lucky enough to get the official rate. This leads to a shortage of USD for people who need them like importers. As such they then have to buy their items using the unofficial rate (i.e. black market rate). The items are sold in Venezuela using the usual mark up values but if you converted them to USD at official rates they look prohibitively expensive.

                    Price controls mean that suppliers stop stocking items that have little of no margin for profit. That is why staples tend to disappear far faster than luxury items as they are the items governments slap price controls on. Also items that can be purchased at the controlled price and can be easily transported tend to disappear out of the country and appear in neighbouring countries next door or on the black market where the price cannot be controlled by the government.

                    In both those countries laws are being broken and therefore it could be argued corruption is taking place. However the laws themselves are at odds with economic reality so it is corruption born of wrong headed leftist policies.

          • nadis

            crashcart: the entire NZ agriculture, forestry and fishing industry contributes 5.6% to NZ GDP. We aren’t as reliant on dairy as popular misconceptions would have you believe.

            • crashcart

              Right so when the trade price drops and we see the governments much vaunted surplus dissapear it is in no way a reflection upon how reliant we have become on dairy.

              • nadis

                just giving you some hard facts, but if you’d prefer to rely on your feelings then fine.

                • crashcart

                  You bought selective facts as did I. GDP is made up af all transactions within an economy. So yes in terms of GDP it may be low. Here is where you left it. As a percentage of exports it is high. Even if it is just under 40% that is still a large amount. An amount that if reduced would have a very negative effect on our terms of trade as well as the amount of liquidity in our economy. Of course I am just going on feeling so thanks for the education.

              • nadis

                I don’t want to further confuse you crashcart, but in 2014 dairy made up 29% of merchandise exports. So add in non-merchandise exports (tourism, services etc) and you can see that dairy makes up a surprisingly low amount of exports.

                Sorry to keep on giving you unhelpful facts. I’d just ignore them and focus on your gut feelings.

                • crashcart

                  Sorry my % was missinformed as I was going of what Gossman put up. No one to blame for that but myself.

                  Of course it was double the nearest export sector and nearly 4 times that of the third in 2013. I wasn’t able to pull up the figures for 2014 so won’t speculate on what they were. Although by your figures it is increasing. I guess you are right and it is not a major influencer of our export sector.

                  • Gosman

                    I actually stated it was well below 40% of total exports. I was aware of the 29% figure but wanted to give some leeway and still show that NZ is far less dependent on a single export item than Venezuela.

      • adam 6.2.2

        I was wondering Mickysavage – if it was more to do with Gossey needing to get laid. And laid well.

    • crashcart 6.3

      Love the way you spend so much time trying to find anything wrong with what you think is the left wings socialist dream. Perhaps everytime you come up with one of these people should bring up a link to an issue in a capatilist nation.

      Allow me to be the first. Capatalist policies contributing to the murder of children in schools

      • Gosman 6.3.1

        More their attitude to gun control. Hardly reflective of their economic system.

        Does your comment mean you don’t think the Venezuelan government is attempting to implement a Socialist set of policies? Interesting if you do think that because it is seemingly at odds with other leftists who support the Chavista regime and what they are attempting to do.

        • crashcart

          Your link provided no direct causation between the price of condoms and the socialist governmetns policies. It ignored the fact that external factors have actively worked to undermine the country and this could just as easily be a result of that. In the same way mine provided no causation.

          I am glad you have solved the US issues of gun violence by putting it down to their attitude to gun control. Of course it ignores Canada who are just as liberal on their gun control laws and have even higher gun ownership rates. Do feel free to let the US administration know that all you have the answer to their gun violence and it has nothing to do with inequality bought on by their capatalist system.

          • Gosman

            Care to explain why external factors cause the price of a packet of 36 Condoms to cost the equivalent of $750 USD on the official rate?

            Condoms are made out of petroleum byproducts are they not? What is the one resource that Venezuela has an abundance of?

            • crashcart

              Condoms are imported there from capatalist countries. Care to tell me how that is not an external factor that would have an effect upon their price.

              • Gosman

                China manufacturers Condoms. What possible reason would China have not selling to Venezuela? In fact Venezuela has oil that China desperately wants so it would be extremely beneficial to trade.

            • Hayden

              Condoms are made out of petroleum byproducts are they not?

              Most condoms are latex, which is made of (natural) rubber. Trojan FAQs

              Some are made from polyurethane, but those are mainly for people with latex allergies.

          • tricledrown

            A recent survey in the US states with the highest gun ownership a least gun controls,have the highest murder rates and highest gun violence rates.
            Gossamer making a dick of himself again.

            • Gosman

              Ummm… are you stating high gun ownership and lack of strong gun control laws lead to increased gun violence? If so, then you are agreeing with my position.

              Who is making the dick out of them self again?

              • crashcart

                No he was stating that it is a contributor. Yes I think he thought you were arguing against gun control as that is the normal RWNJ stance. However as usual the fact that there may be multiple influences to a hugely difficult social issue seems to be beyond you.

      • Gosman 6.3.2

        Since you mentioned Violent crime and murder here are some interesting statistics about Venezuela


        These have been steadily getting worse over the time the Chavista regime has been in power. Curiously income inequality in the country has fallen sharply over that period as well which is at odds with what many leftists think should happen.

        • crashcart

          Since you mentioned condoms.


          I think you missed the point that you can go and find something wrong with every country. You however seem to spend an inordinant amount of time trying to prove that Venezuela is flawed and that this means that socialisim does not work.

          Well here is where you little crusade becomes stupid:

          1) Venezuela is not in a little planet of its own. It has to operate with countries who have an active interest in ensureing it fails. When the US doesn’t want a country so close to work then that country will not work. So to point to them and say “look socialisim doesn’t work I has proofs” whilst completeing ignoring the influence that Capitalist nations have on their performance is ignorance at its worst.

          2) I don’t think I have every seen any one here hold Venezuela up as their idea of a socialist utopia. So you are trying to use a classic straw man. It would be like me turning around and pointing to Somalia that tried to operate as a 0 tax small govenment and use that as an example of why capitalisim doesn’t work. That of course would be ignoring a huge number of factors that also contribute to the shit hole it is.

          • Gosman

            How can the US impact the cost of Condoms in Venezuela?

            I choose to highlight the failures of Venezuela because it is interesting to note the responses of many leftists to a situation which seemingly shows that adopting a far left set of policies leads to economic ruin. What I find is many just can’t accept this unpleasant fact and blame the issues on anything but the Venezuelan government.

            • crashcart

              The brand of Condom in your original link is Trojan a US brand. Of course they can effect the price are you being deliberately dumb on this point.

              So you admit that you use Venezuela as a straw man to attack. Like I said I could say the same about Somalia, or Mexico, or Honduras, or Nigeria.

              To your above point about China. I don’t know why China are not supporting Venezuela … oh wait they are you are full of shit again.


              • Gosman

                How would the US Condom maker cause the price of their Condoms to be as high as $750 USD? Why wouldn’t the Venezuelan importer of the product not just buy cheaper brands from other nations if they did? Why don’t they just reimport it from neighbouring countries where I suspect it is not the equivalent of $750 USD?

                • crashcart

                  Perhaps the manufacturer has contracts with their suppliers that prevents them onselling them to Venezuela. Its not like you just send someone across the border to buy a few boxes of Joey’s and that will solve the issue of their cost.

                  • Gosman

                    Let me get this clear. You are stating the Us manufacturer of Trojan Condoms has decided that it will sell the item for the equivalent of $750 USD in the Venezuelan market (less mark up from the distributors) and has also stopped neighbouring nations from on-selling in to the Venezuelan market- Is that correct?

                    Here’s an alternative for you. The price of the Condoms aren’t really the equivalent of $750 USD. Indeed they are much less if you use the black market rate. The problem for the distributor in Venezuela is they can’t access the USD to buy them at the official rate so they have to use black market sourced US dollars to get them in.

                    • Lanthanide

                      Actually Gos I suspect that they aren’t importing any at all, so the price has risen to reflect the value of their remaining limited stock.

                      Although in this case I seriously doubt anyone would see value in a condom at that price.

                    • Gosman

                      Nope. The price in equivalent USD is using official rates. The point is the supplier is unlikely to be using the official rate to purchase the stock so hence why the value is high using that measure. Using the unofficial rate it is still high but more affordable (at least to those with cash).

                • adam

                  Come on Gossy – lets not complain about condoms – lets encourage other forms of sex apart from penetration.

                  I can think of heaps of Adult playtime things to do in the bedroom which don’t require condoms. Massage, whips, chains, cream and the like. The world does not need to fret about condoms Gossy – and neither do you.

            • tricledrown

              Gossamer nothing to do with the trade sanctions or the fact very few countries have advanced petrochemical industries.
              Any country that has opposing economic or political ideas to the US become targeted especially if they have oil.
              A country that has oil reserves is 100× more likely to suffer foriegn intervention.
              If Venezuela didn’t have oil it would be
              left alone.
              And Gossamer wouldn’t have to be a propaganda tool making a dick of himself!

              • Gosman

                Venezuela is still able to trade with the US and pretty much any other nation it chooses on the planet. Trade sanctions are not the cause of the economic difficulties in that country.

                • crashcart

                  Goss said it so it must be true.

                • tricledrown

                  So Gossamer their has been no retaliation to the nationalization of the Oil industry!
                  You are a tool of the propaganda machine Gossamer!

                • Colonial Rawshark

                  Venezuela is still able to trade with the US and pretty much any other nation it chooses on the planet. Trade sanctions are not the cause of the economic difficulties in that country.


                  Sure, it’s even possible that trade sanctions by the US are designed to HELP the Venezuelan people, right?


                  • Gosman

                    Interesting that the Zanu-PF government in Zimbabwe used the same excuse for their economic collapse. The very limited sanctions imposed on certain individuals was the cause of hyperinflation and shortages of goods apparently and not the fact they destroyed their productive sector, slapped price controls on and printed money to fund their excessive government spending. Similar to what is happening in Venezuela.

                    I do have a simple question for you. Please show me one product that has been unable to be brought by Venezuela as a result of any trade sanctions imposed? Just one would suffice.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      LOL the Zimbabwe example, out of 170 countries in the world, more idiocy. Venezuela is a full democracy which once again, the USA is trying its hardest to destabilise.

                    • Gosman

                      I will ask you once again,

                      Please show me one product that has been unable to be brought by Venezuela as a result of any trade sanctions imposed?

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      FFS do you not understand the problem? Which is Venezuela is being deprived of hard foreign currency through a financial capital strike.

                    • Gosman

                      How is this financial capital strike playing out?

                      Who are the players denying Venezuela access to foreign capital?

                      Why would a nation like China (which has plenty of US currency in reserve) deny Venezuela access to US currency?

                      Where did all of Venezuela’s currency reserves go considering they had tens of billions not so many years ago?

                      BTW once again the argument you put forward is exactly the same as that put forward by Zanu-PF to explain their problems. I find it especially funny considering the respective governments of Venezuela and Zimbabwe spend much of their time banging on about how evil the foreign financiers are then complain that all their woes are caused by them not lending them any money.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      Fuck off with teh Zimbabwe example it’s utterly irrelevant. Venezuela is a thriving democracy where people have been empowered not driven off their land. The US wants to see Venezuela fail, and wants to put in a regime which will allow them to take their oil for free.

                    • Gosman

                      You are free to ignore my comparisons to Zimbabwe. It would be useful to answer my questions in regard to these terrible restrictions and financial capital strike Venezuela is subject to.

                      How is this financial capital strike manifested exactly and why doesn’t Venezuela circumvent it via use of foreign currency from other sources?

                    • vto

                      hey mr gosman, speaking of capital where does the money come from to pay the interest on the ever-increasing pile of debt in the world?

                    • Gosman

                      That is for the people who choose voluntarily to take out the debt to answer. I presume they do so for a reason and I also presume they are aware they need to pay interest on the money they are leant. If they aren’t aware then they are either stupid or have been lied to and therefore have a good case not to pay back the money or at least the interest component of the debt. Either way why should I care?

                    • nadis

                      Venezuela is a full democracy


                      Let me re-write that sentence for you CR:

                      Venezuela is a full* democracy** that enables the government to intimidate, censor and prosecute critics, use arbitrary detention, subjugate the judiciary, aggressively close down alternative media sources, revoke licences of internet providers that allow the publication of criticism of the government, allow and encourage extra-judicial killings by security forces, fire public workers who do not vote for the incumbent, and of course vote against the recent UN human rights report on North Korea.

                      * Full may contain nothing
                      ** democracy may not mean actual democracy

                      Can you help me understand what “Full Democracy” means again CR? Unless of course Human Rights Watch is a front for the CIA.



    • The Murphey 6.4


      Capitalism corporatism materialism consumerism creates oversexualised children

  6. Skinny 7

    Who watched Campbell last night?

    Old friends getting together for a pre Waitangi party.

    Yes there beeming live into homes nationwide were former Labour leaders Phil Goff & David Shearer partying the night away with former wannabe Labour leader & MP Shane Jones. Shearer putting in a cameo performance as front man singing and strumming his guitar.

    While my partner snarled and said “that’s it with Labour.” I started laughing saying Shane Jones is just abiding by his employment contract with his employer the National Government.
    When they crossed back later in the show I could have sworn Goff & Shearer were milling around Murray McCully signing some paperwork.

    Just wondering if Matt Mc Carten is drafting up some paperwork for them to sign today?

  7. NZH editor not happy with Gareth Morgan


    But Dr Morgan’s latest adopted cause is different, he has come around to a modern reading of the Treaty of Waitangi. He admits he is a latecomer to the idea of bicultural nationhood but that has not inhibited his willingness to antagonise any Pakeha who have not reached his stage of enlightenment.

    Why be antagonised ?

    Few Maori or Pakeha enthusiasts for the Treaty would dare speak of its modern meaning as definitively as Dr Morgan does. It is an idea that is constantly developing and open to experiment from both sides. The Maori Party has been one such experiment. It arose from resentment of the previous Labour Government’s response to the foreshore and seabed claim but when their independent party went into a National-led Government, it was too much for the most radical Maori. They formed the Mana Party with left-wing Pakeha, demonstrating that class politics was more important than a separate identity after all.

    That last line is a doozy

    instead Maori voters have largely returned to a mainstream party, puts their identity in perspective. Biculturalism does not seem to need independent political expression. It needs recognition and consultation by a party in power.

    identity in perspective – NZH editor following a very well known line there.

    For me I welcome Gareth Morgan working to educate Pākehā – some may move their ideas. I also like that he is talking to Pākehā from both marae and RSA Hall (or wherever it was). The editorial is entitled – “Biculturalism doesn’t need late convert” – I think it does.

  8. BassGuy 9

    In the Otago Daily Times today, “The Government highlighted that it had continued “to crank out strong job growth”…’

    Wasn’t it Key’s position, several years ago now, that it isn’t the government’s role to create jobs, but that of business? This was back when he was being blasted for an increase in unemployment. I can’t seem to find the original quote anywhere, only references to it, but I imagine someone here will have a link.

    Can’t have it both ways, Key. You’re either responsible for (un)employment levels, or you’re not.

  9. Te Reo Putake 10

    A new British play about working in a job centre sounds eerily familiar. Brownie points for cruelty could be a Paula Bennett motivational mantra.


  10. “..U.S. Surgeon General Says Marijuana ‘Can Be Helpful’ For Some Medical Conditions..

    ..Dr. Vivek Murthy – the nation’s newest surgeon general-

    – says that marijuana ‘can be helpful’ for some medical conditions –

    – and wants science to dictate policy on the federally banned substance..”



  11. saveNZ 12

    We all knew this is on the agenda…
    TISA – Leaked document reveals secret talks to privatize and raise health costs
    The following release contains a paper discussed in the framework of the secretive Trade in Services Agreement (TISA). Up to 23 countries plus all EU members are participating in the negotiations, which aim to deregulate up to 70% of world trade in services. Until now, what little is known about TISA has been through leaked information.
    The proposal titled ‘A concept paper on health care services within TISA Negotiations’ states there is ‘huge untapped potential for the globalisation of healthcare services’ mainly because ‘health care services is (sic) funded and provided by state or welfare organisations and is of virtually no interest for foreign competitors due to lack of market-orientated scope for activity’.


    The other reason that the far right love to send other people to war, is that they then get to get to sneak through their other main agendas …..

  12. saveNZ 13

    Cartoons on

    Everything You Should, But Don’t, Know About “Free Trade”


    Could be a good one for the politicians out there….

  13. A nice easy to follow graphic of the timeline relating to sabin


    Good articles coming from Mana News – I wonder if they could be added to the feeds for TS

  14. adam 15

    I had a good sleep last night, the first in ages – so today I was very early for work – So I took the opportunity to ride under every bridge in New Lynn – West Auckland.

    And as I has though, every bridge in New Lynn had people sleeping under it – even the rail bridge. (This is the very noisy one) And not just one or two but under one – at least 6 or 7 all huddled together.

    So if Mr Key and co, think they have a good country and they are doing their best – then I call them liar’s and deceivers. They are oblivious, to the reality of the suffering their poor economic choices causes.

    Liberalism is not economic common sense – it is a vicious nasty ideology.

    • weka 15.1

      thanks adam.

    • Once was Tim 15.2

      I’ve taken my daily constitutional around Wellington too Adam in the early morning. A similar situation exists here!
      And that doesn’t take account of those living in the town belt.

      • adam 15.2.1

        I remember in the early 2000’s I lived in central Auckland, I use to see the homeless wake up in around where I lived, and that was a substantial number then.

        It seems to me that the homes migrating towards the centre of the city towards to social services is a thing of the past.

        I see soup kitchens all over Auckland now – this economy has falling apart for many – no matter how much these Muppet’s try to spin everything is fine and dandy.

  15. Chooky 16

    Very interesting and skilled interviews by Kathryn Ryan this morning:

    …on Isis ( resolving Syria’s problems is the key to a solution)

    ….and quad bike accidents ( interview with farmer Andrew Fleming….author of
    ‘Change the Chanel’


  16. Colonial Rawshark 17

    NYC empty $100M apartments with low rates – and more than 60,000 homeless

    No wonder the city is creating new police units with military assault weapons.


    • vto 17.1

      That is 100% evidence of US economic ideology failing its society.

      fail fail fail

      I see gosman hanging around like a bad smell today – maybe gosman would like to explain how this phenomenon is indicative of success ……. look forward to today’s great and amazing hair-split trick.

  17. This is my take on Waitangi day attitudes. No-one will publish it, so in the spirit of liberte d’expression I’m sticking it here. Buggar.


    [Well put. Do you want/consent to it being a guest post? – MS]

    • Chooky 18.1

      +100 …thanks interesting!…much good tongue- in- cheek, ribbing fodder there…. for bickering about over the Waitangi Day picnic rug on the beach

      …everyone loves Waitangi Day!

    • CnrJoe 18.2

      classic Mr Meech – “Recent research has emerged that a bunch of discarded old stones found in the corner of a field near Hokianga are conclusive proof that Polynesians were once ruled by a Celtic master race. There is no conceivable way in which ancient Polynesians, renowned for world class feats of sea navigation, warfare and oral mastery, could possibly have randomly put stones on top of one another”.


    • weka 18.3

      Do you know how to sumit to the standard as a guest post? It’s a worthy read.

      Look putting it bluntly Maori just need to buck up. Like their friendly British-based real estate franchisees and colonial roastbusters, they need to formulate wordy European-type verbal and ideological constructs which launch far up and away into the air soaring high and right over (and barely recognising or relating to) the relevant facts or detail pertaining to the historical issues of our time.

      So let’s just bloody well build a bridge and get over it.

  18. Penny Bright 19

    FYI folks – seeking and distributing information which should help to SINK the proposed Wellington ‘Supercity’ …


    Date: Tuesday 3 February 2015
    Time: 9.00am
    Meeting Room: Level 26
    Venue: 135 Albert Street

    Council Controlled Organisations Governance and Monitoring Committee


    5.1 Public Input – Penny Bright – Cost Effectiveness of the Auckland Super City Amalgamation

    A. 3 February 2015, CCO Governance & Monitoring Committee, Item 5.1 –

    Penny Bright Tabled Information 3

    Kind regards

    Penny Bright


    • English Breakfast 19.1

      Keep up the good work Penny! As an Aucklander I am doing everything I can to convince my Wellington friends to say NO to their supercity.

    • adam 19.2

      Thanks Penny – Good to see your web page too.

      • Chooky 19.2.1

        +100 Penny is a real activist for good…I do so hope my beloved Wellington does not follow in the corrupt footsteps of Auckland ‘Supercity’ NOT

  19. rawshark-yeshe 20

    Short Guardian column about compulsive liars .. Lance Armstrong is the main character … but many key points, so to speak ….

    “Habits can become addictions. There is a thrill in deceiving others – it underlines your superiority as you managed to fool them. And you might get hooked on that thrill. But, like all addictions, it can go wrong as it traps and entangles you.”


    • rawshark-yeshe 20.1

      and this key comment below the article … an awful truth for us in NZ …

      “He only sees things through the black and white prism of “Winning” and “Losing”. To admit to any weakness/mistake/fallacy is losing. The value that the rest of us apply to being truthful or having integrity is irrelevant to him – lying is merely a tool he uses to get what he wants and “win” which he will do at any cost. I think that he believes that people who tell the truth and admit their mistakes are fools.”

      • Chooky 20.1.1

        scarey how some people think…and operate

      • Tracey 20.1.2

        and those around them dare not contemplate the reality because it amounts to an admission they have been fooled and made fools of. That is one reason many do not want to confront the PMs deceit, both in media and the public, because of what it reveals about themselves. Others go further and devise excuses, rationalisations and justifications for his behaviour to keep them from acknowledging their foolishness.

  20. Philip Ferguson 21

    Israeli intransigence seems to be increasingly undermining those supporting a two-state ‘solution’ to the Palestinian liberation struggle.

    However, there are also differences among those who oppose the existence of Israel. One of the most interesting debates has been between two Marxists in Britain with long records of organising in support of the Palestinian cause and against the Israeli state: Moshe Machover, a veteran Israeli Marxist and a founder of the Israeli Socialist Organisation (ISO) in the early 1960s, and Tony Greenstein, a longtime solidarity activist and veteran working class fighter.

    We’ve run some of the material from this (fairly comradely) ongoing debate on Redline.

    Here’s Tony’s main piece (I admire Moshe but I happen to agree more with Tony): Israel, Palestine: the one-state solution and the issue of Israeli-Jewish nationhood https://rdln.wordpress.com/2011/07/08/israel-palestine-the-one-state-solution-and-the-issue-of-israeli-jewish-nationhood/

    Here’s a couple of interesting pieces by Moshe about the problems Zionism is having:
    Zionism’s ongoing quest for legitimacy https://rdln.wordpress.com/2014/09/29/zionisms-ongoing-quest-for-legitimacy/

    Does Israel have a future? https://rdln.wordpress.com/2013/01/25/does-israel-have-a-future/

    We also have a much larger selection of articles on Palestine at https://rdln.wordpress.com/category/palestine/

    and a substantial number of articles on the PFLP: https://rdln.wordpress.com/category/pflp/

    (Obviously many articles turn up in our Israel, Palestine and PFLP categories)


  21. fisiani 22

    John Key’s speech at Waitangi is going down really well at the marae. He is winning hearts and minds and I presume votes with his candour and sense. A masterful delivery with minimal fuss. Great to see.

    • McFlock 22.1

      you’ve still got a wee speck of his cum on the corner of your mouth

      [lprent: That is getting close to the edge of toleration. Both in terms of “pointless abuse” and causing to make me laugh out loud in the middle of the workroom. However it could get tiresome fast. Be warned. ]

      • Once was Tim 22.1.1

        Thank Christ you’re edgy and that edginess is still tolerated. Has P.G. got an opinion? I wonder what Jamie Lee would think of such a comment McFlock.
        OOOOOO u r awful! But I like you

        • McFlock

          Fisi’s unabashed idolatry for dunnokeyo is so extreme very few alternative comparisons come to mind, as it were.

      • Naki man 22.1.2

        LimpCock always swallows all the evidence

        • McFlock

          ’tis the courteous thing to do.

          But it is a service that would not be performed on someone so blatantly undeserving of my affection as a prime minister who can’t even monitor a department, or indeed what goes on in his own office.

          • Tracey

            Well, he did have to eschew secret service oversight cos it was beyond his capabilities. That’s a big admission, even if the media failed to understand it as such.

    • framu 22.2

      thanks for proving you know SFA about marae protocols and behaviour

      you must go through a lot of paper towels and hand lotion

    • swordfish 22.3

      Always impressive to see you engaging your razor-sharp critical skills, Fisi. Certainly no one could ever accuse you of being a mindless cheerleader,

      Or, to put it another way: “you’ve still got a wee speck of his cum on the corner of your mouth”

    • charismatic ideologue appeals to mass psychosis, promotes war and lebensraum for his followers

    • Rosie 22.5

      Fizzer. You mean this bit?

      “We are a country that stands for human rights and I don’t know about you but when people are being burned with petrol I find it difficult to look the other way.”


      I don’t know about you Key, but when we trade with a country with an appalling history of human rights abuses, and that country is one of our biggest traders, I find it difficult to look the other way.

      I don’t know about you Key, but when we stand by and watch as one country tortures and kills the children living in another country in an occupied land, with outlawed white phosphorous, I find it difficult to look the other away.

      I don’t know about you Key, but when we turn a blind eye to our Pacific neighbours in Kiribas as their land drowns because of rising sea levels, because we along with other western nations refuse to address climate change, I find it difficult to look the other way.

      I could go on, and on, and on.

      What a fucking hypocrite. There is so much fucking snake oil work going on that somebody had better put the “danger wet floor” sign out, so no has an accident and slides over.

      • b waghorn 22.5.1

        The illegal torture of prisoners by the USA could be added to the list of things keys turned a blind eye to.

        • Rosie

          Yep, feel free to add to the wall of hypocrisy. There’s plenty of examples. (Boko Haram anyone?), Usually ones that don’t involve the Club, or The Family

  22. Northsider 23

    The Guardian forecasts that the SNP would win 54 out of the 59 seats in Scotland. The Lib Dems would retain one, Labour four. The Tories would lose their one and only seat. Labour won 41 in 2010.

    Ashcroft Polling has done a 16,000 phone call survey of the 14 electorates in which Labour won with the highest margins five years ago – and the swing in these is even greater than the one implied in Scotland-wide polls.

    Meanwhile Alex Salmond has been compared in Westminster by Bill Cash (loony end of the Tory Party) to Charles Stewart Parnell, the great Irish Home Rule Leader. It was intended to frighten the English voters! As commentators have said: Liberal Prime Minister Asquith described Parnell as “one of the three or four greatest men of the 19th century”, while Lord Haldane described him as” the strongest man the House of Commons had seen in 150 years” William Gladstone described Parnell as “the most remarkable person” he had ever met.

    Scotland is blessed with a great leadership team in the SNP at present. Sturgeon, Hosie, Swinney, Robertson, Murrell and Salmond are the team that can successfully lead Scotland into early Independence. The SNP are a truly Social Democratic Party.

    • Gosman 23.1

      They just lost a referendum on independence. It is unlikely they will have another go so soon. If they do they will be justifiably criticised for attempting to achieve independence regardless of peoples views.

      • Northsider 23.1.1

        The Polls are also showing that many people who voted NO did so on the basis of the last minute “Vow” of home rule and near federalism promised by George Brown on behalf of the Tories/Labour NO campaign.

        What has materialised in draft legislation that give Scotland contol over only 30% of revenue and 15% if welfare. Cameron and Hague have announced that Scottish MPs will be reduced to 2nd class statue in Westminster.

        These people are now disgusted and will now never forgive Labour for siding with Thatcher’s party. The majority are now saying that they want Independence.
        IMHO this is the last UK General Election.

        • Bill Drees

          Shurely you meant Gordon Brown, the great Blairite, rather than George Brown, the great piss-head.

        • Tracey

          the tories and others lied to voters? Say it isnt so.

          • adam

            Tory scum know no other way Tracy, they know no other way.

            • Northsider

              Sadly the GB Labour crowd went hand in hand with the Tories in the IndyRef.
              They said things and behaved in ways which crossed a line: there is no going back to Labour for a huge number of people.
              Making Jim Murphy Leader was the final nail in the coffin. Fill internment will take place on the 7th May.

              R.I.P. Labour in Scotland

              No flowers at the internment service, please. Nobody from Labour’s Scottish Branch Office will be around to accept.

  23. Draco T Bastard 24

    Ben Ambridge: 10 myths about psychology: Debunked

    The bit about people detecting lies near the end is certainly applicable to NZ ATM.

  24. (one for (fellow) ‘the dude’ fans..)

    “..Jeff Bridges releases sleep album – to help the world’s stressed-out dudes gets some shut-eye..

    ..I went to bed with The Dude last night.

    And you can too.

    I should make it clear that Jeff Bridges hasn’t fallen on hard times – and gone all Midnight Cowboy on us.

    The Oscar-winning actor has simply released an album designed for you to play while you snooze.

    Well more precisely – it is actually meant to send you to sleep –

    – his deep, rich mutterings the vehicle that will deliver you to the land of nod..”


    (ed:..heh..!..didn’t see that one coming..)


  25. fisiani 26

    ISIL Beheading, burning alive, throwing a gay man off a 7 story building and then on surviving being stoned to death and also crucifying.
    We should do nothing for fear of reprisal. Really???????
    When the decision to send troops is announced I await the torrent of hand wringing do nothing defeatism typical of the Left. And you wonder why the Left is unelectable.

    • I wouldn’t overdose on Fox News fisiani. There are varied opinions on the “Left” as I’m sure you know.
      The actions of ISIL are despicable, but we should not rush into another war (and likely quagmire) without UN mandate at least. The US/UK aren’t exactly trustworthy partners in Middle East military adventures.

    • their neighbours should take care of it..

      ..are you aware of the state-be-headings – in retaliation..?

      ..are you aware there have been over 116 air-strikes on isis..?

      ..get some context/nuance..eh..?

      ..yes..they are barbaric/evil-shits..

      ..then again so are most of the leaders/regimes in the region..

      ..(especially americas’ ‘friends’..eh..?

      ..y’know..!..saudi arabia beheading women..and all that stuff..?..)

      ..so we should pick a less ‘evil/barbaric’-side..and wade in there..eh..boots and all..eh..?

      ..we should rush to war..

      ..as i said..calm yr hysterics..

      …and get some context/nuance..eh..?

      ..and as far as context 4 u is concerned..

      ..you would have wanted clark to sign us up for the bush-led invasion of iraq..eh..?

      ..so why the fuck should we listed to a word you say..?..


    • framu 26.3

      or we could just sit around and misrepresent the entire argument on the internet

      your being a troll fisti – a very boring troll

    • @ fisi..


      ..gonna be breaking out the white-feathers soon..then..?

    • Tracey 26.5

      Thank you for your concern, especially for homosexuals who your leader can never quite decide if he supported or not and who previous right wing leaders criminalised for so many years.

      As for ISIS, why do we need to reprise when Jordan is executing ISIS prisoners at will now?

    • CC 26.6

      When the decision to send troops is announced, I await the sight of you Fisiani, signing up along with Max Key!

      • Molly 26.6.1

        I agree with your sentiments against NZ troops heading off to war, but feel uncomfortable with the occasional cries regarding John Key’s son.

        He is not responsible for the misguided and inexcusable actions of his father, and did not ask to be the son of the worst PM we have had. That is punishment enough, and any fans of John Key will fixate on the “terrible calls for his son to enlist” and miss again the point.

        • North

          I didn’t notice TheGaucheKey being terribly sensitive about Phillip Smith’s (living) victim and his family when he actually fucking giggled to foreign television about Smith’s escape to South America. Some shit about who’s not invited to dinner or some such.

          I didn’t notice any cautions from the sensitive folk that it might be unwise and too hard on the boy for TheSelfieDaddyKey to contrive the plastering of selfies of senior and junior in a targa top in Hawaii all over regular and social media.

          I didn’t notice any particular sensitivity from the GodKey about young woman Tania Billingsley.

          I didn’t notice any wish not to play the game when SpawnOfTheDaddyKey howlingly photoshopped himself with a financial gangster man.

          I do notice that it would be meet were the TheLittleChurchillKey to look past other peoples’ sons and offer his own when rushing to join “the family”.

          Meanwhile, I am not Maggie Smith in Downton Abbey and I will not be clutching my pearls aghast. I note Molly that in any event your concerns seem not to be principally for junior.

          • Molly

            Hi North,

            You are right, I’m not concerned for Max. He is not relevant.

            John Key has not the integrity, knowledge, or even competency to be the one making the decision about where our troops go.

            Even if he had a child that was in our Defence Force, the decision to enter a conflict zone should be made critically and with understanding of the likely outcomes of that deployment.

            However, John Key doesn’t make independent choices, he pays “club fees”.

            I don’t need to speculate about unlikely events concerning his children.

            I consider this decision to be bad enough to be criticised on it’s own merit.

    • Paul 26.7

      You should volunteer,as you seem so keen for others to fight.

  26. (do you know what facebook has signed all of its’ users up to..?…

    ..you (i am presuming you are all on facebook..?..)..have now agreed to letting them track you even when you are not on facebook..

    ..choice..!..eh..?..who knew..?..)

    “..Facebook signs users up to privacy policy – that allows it to track you everywhere on the internet..

    ..A new Facebook privacy policy allows the site to track your activity even after you’ve left it —

    – and all users have automatically signed up to it.

    The change enables it to gather data from activity across the internet –

    – as well as the normal data it gathers on information you and your friends have added to the site.

    It also allows the site to pass on that information with its other branches – including Instagram.

    The company said in November that the change would come into effect – when it mentioned that it would be implemented on January 30.

    Facebook says that it showed notifications to users – and sent them emails – informing them that the change was coming into effect..”



    • Naki man 27.1

      I wouldn’t trust facebook as far as I could kick them, yet some people get all bent out of shape over the GCSB.

    • Rosie 27.2

      Glad I’m not on fb. One of the many reason is security, and well, here’s proof of those fears.

      • adam 27.2.1

        Use chrome, and go incognito. Facebook canny follow. Use a proxy server. Or just log out of facebook, and don’t stay logged in all the time…

        • weka

          Doesn’t using chrome just hand everything over to google?

          • adam

            Yes, if you stay logged in.
            Which is what most people do.

            If you read the end user agreement – it says whilst you are logged into Google, they will keep track of what you do. A cloud service. Easy done though, if you have a gmail account – use youtube or google+ bookmarks etc..

            • weka

              I had a do not follow thingy on Firefox for while, but disabled it as it made my computer do weird things.

  27. freedom 28


    “What I am able to reveal from my visit to the library is that I left without any sense of reassurance either that the process of negotiating this trade deal is democratic, or that the negotiators are operating on behalf of citizens.”

    All we can do is add this to the ever growing pile of stern concern being expressed around the world. Week after week there are warnings from people who have seen the details, saying the same thing that our own Tim Groser refuses to.

    These ‘agreements’ are nothing more than corporate entities devouring global resources with no regard to the individuals, sovereignties or democracies that will be consumed by the avarice required to formulate such plans and eventually assimilated by the processes that drive them.

    The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) , The Trade in Services Agreement (TISA), The Comprehensive Trade and Economic Agreement (CETA) and of course The Trans Pacific Partnership Agreement are all the same thing. Very bad news.

  28. Puckish Rogue 29

    Being an avid watcher of QI (arise Lord Stephen Fry!) this seemed pertinent and amusing (sorry couldn’t find it on youtube)


    The thing that newsagents sell that makes people suddenly want to vote Tory is lottery tickets. Labour voters who suddenly win the lottery are likely to change their political opinions and become Conservative voters. This is known as “Sudden Wealth Syndrome”


    • adam 29.1

      Lotto and lottery’s in general are vulgar, and puissant thrills which bring out the worst in people. We should not have them, bit like slot machine machines – destructive and vulgar. Burn them all.

  29. (what many suspected was happening..is confirmed as happening..

    ..no..you are not paranoid..)

    “..Editor Of Major Newspaper Says He Planted Stories For CIA..

    ..Dr. Udo Ulfkotte – the editor of Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung – one of Germany’s largest newspapers –

    – said in an interview that he accepted news stories written and given to him by the CIA –

    – and published them under his own name.

    Ulfkotte said the aim of much of the deception –

    – was to drive nations toward war.

    Dr. Ulfkotte says the corruption of journalists and major news outlets by the CIA is routine – accepted – and widespread in the western media –

    – and that journalists who do not comply either cannot get jobs at any news organization –

    – or find their careers cut short..”



  30. weka 31

    Eula Bliss is being interviewed by Kim Hill on Sat. Here’s a Q and A from last year on Gawker, after the release of her book On Immunity, about vaccination and, well, a whole bunch of social and political complexities.

    You have, with this book, intervened in that public debate in a pretty anti-pundit way, though.

    In this area, I feel really strongly that’s what we need. More and more, it seems like both sides are getting really reductive, and ironing out the nuances of the conversation. There seems to be a proliferation of pundits.

    Obviously on what I’m just gonna call the Jenny McCarthy side, the reduction is a lack of attention to the science. What about the other side?

    On the pro-vaccine side — and not everyone does this but I saw it enough for it to make me really uncomfortable — is a tendency to accuse people who are wary of vaccination of being stupid and not understanding science. For most people who are hesitant about vaccination, a lot more is going on. I talked to lots of people who are vaccine-hesitant, and I actually was one myself until I got further into this project, and most of them actually are in my demographic: so well-educated people with advanced degrees, who are upper middle-class and have read quite a bit on the subject.

    So not only is it reductive, I think it’s also wrong. I think if we’re really concerned about stopping falling vaccination rates, we also need to be concerned about the actual reasons why those rates are falling, and not just write it off to stupidity.



    • The Murphey 31.1

      Q. Would you be seeking to learn anything from Eula ?

      • weka 31.1.1


        • The Murphey

          Q. Can you share what that might be ?

          • weka


            • Te Reo Putake

              Don’t bother, weka. Furphey’s from the PG school of pointless questions.

            • The Murphey

              Because I enjoy your balanced and thoughtful comments and would like to hear where the interest exists for you on the subject matter of the book you linked to

              • weka

                I think my interest is pretty obvious from my original comment. Can you tell what it is?

                • The Murphey

                  There are a number of angles of interest which could be possible


                  1. The author and or the subject matter

                  2. The writing style of the author and approach taken to the discussion around the subject

                  3. The book and why it attracted critical acclaim

                  4. The interview approach which Kim Hill employs


                  You mentioned social and political complexities and this is where I have interest in hearing perspectives of balanced commentators

                  The subject comes up from time to time and has frequently of late with abuse and derogatory comments the usual responses that I have questioned in recent days

                  By your comments here I would anticipate that you could elucidate a neutral balanced opinion regardless of your preference

                  That is the style of comment I would like to hear on the subject should you like to share

                  • weka

                    How about we both listen to the interview and have a conversation afterwards?

                    Or you could read the Q and A and we could have a conversation afterwards.

                    1. The author and or the subject matter

                    2. The writing style of the author and approach taken to the discussion around the subject

                    3. The book and why it attracted critical acclaim

                    4. The interview approach which Kim Hill employs

                    That might be true if I’d just dropped a link, but why would I quote that particular part of the Q and A?

                    • The Murphey

                      That’s not possible for me to know Weka there are any number of factors you may well be interested in other than the focal point of your original post

                      I have read the Q and A but won’t be able to listen to the interview on the day

                      Would be happy to hear your perspective and to share thoughts next week if you’re interested

                    • The Murphey

                      Q. Have you listened to the interview Weka ?

                    • weka

                      not yet. Have you?

                    • The Murphey


                    • weka

                      What did you think?

                    • The Murphey

                      Q. How about once we have both listened to the interview we have a conversation about it ?

                    • weka

                      I haven’t listened to it yet, so we can’t do that. I”m asking you what you think having listened to it now.

                    • The Murphey

                      You need to have your own experience listening to the interview

                      Let me know once you have listened to it and we can go from there

                    • weka

                      You don’t actually know what I need, but I’m suspecting that it’s not possible to have a conversation with you about it irrespective of whether I listen or not.

                    • The Murphey

                      Sharing my thoughts before you have listened to the interview would prevent you from having an original experience of your own

                      When I said ” you need ” I was pointing out what should be abundantly clear regarding having your own experience without my thoughts involved

                      If you would like to back out of your own suggested approach to how we were to discuss the link you posted that is your prerogative but don’t do so using unconvincing tactics of transference and deflection

                    • McFlock

                      translation a) I totes have an opinion on it, but can’t tell you because spoilers.

                      translation b) I’m so awesome that if I tell you my opinion first, you’ll just agree with me rather than me educating you with a pseudo-Socratic dialogue that I’m not good enough to maintain so it turns into an interminable series of pointless questions to which I offer no answers. Besides, you’ve only read up to book four and don’t even know that dragon glass can kill the White Walkers.

                    • weka

                      “Sharing my thoughts before you have listened to the interview would prevent you from having an original experience of your own”

                      I’ve already read a Q and A with the author, so I’m not a clean slate. But even if what you imply is true, why would that matter if I hear your thoughts before the interview and thus don’t have an ‘original experience’?

                      “When I said ” you need ” I was pointing out what should be abundantly clear regarding having your own experience without my thoughts involved”

                      It sounds like you have a need to have me engage in a certain way. Or you want to control me. Either way, it’s not about my needs, it’s about yours.

                      “If you would like to back out of your own suggested approach to how we were to discuss the link you posted that is your prerogative but don’t do so using unconvincing tactics of transference and deflection”

                      I’m not backing out. There is nothing in my suggestion that commits us to not talking before we’ve both listened to the interview, and we can still talk after I’ve heard it. I haven’t had time to listen yet, so I’m suggesting that you start the ball rolling. This is a normal enough thing for me to do, no deflection or transference or amateur psychology needed.

                      @ McFlock 😛

                    • The Murphey

                      I’ve already read a Q and A with the author, so I’m not a clean slate. But even if what you imply is true, why would that matter if I hear your thoughts before the interview and thus don’t have an ‘original experience’?

                      Q. Did you find fault with your own suggestion ?

                      Perhaps it matters perhaps it won’t but we’re not on the same field which is why I’m happy to go with your suggestion of waiting until we have both listened to the interview as it made sense

                      It sounds like you have a need to have me engage in a certain way. Or you want to control me. Either way, it’s not about my needs, it’s about yours.

                      Q. Are you deliberately forgetting I ‘m requesting to keep to your suggested approach ?

                      It was your suggestion which I am requesting to adhere to ergo it can’t be about anyone’s needs or control other than your own so the term for that comment is projection

                      There is nothing in my suggestion that commits us to not talking before we’ve both listened to the interview

                      You could say that but it’s lurching deep into the realms of making things up shifting goal posts and unbalanced

                      I haven’t had time to listen yet, so I’m suggesting that you start the ball rolling. This is a normal enough thing for me to do, no deflection or transference or amateur psychology needed

                      Q. Is it normal for you to change the conditions of your own suggestions ?

                      No worries take your time or not at all there is no compulsion to listen to the interview you linked to and highlighted

                      Should you choose to listen to the interview and comment on it I shall look forward to reading your thoughts and will be happy to keep to your suggestion by sharing mine

                    • weka


                      I still haven’t listened to it. I’m curious though, how you expect the conversation to go when you are dictating the terms of the conversation. It’s one thing to say, nah I’d rather wait. It’s another thing to try and use my suggestion to bind me into something which I clearly don’t consider to be binding. Or to make out that you know more about my intentions in the suggestion than I do. I’ll take that as a reasonable sign of bad faith.

                    • The Murphey

                      Q. Why do you so intensely wish to project such odious interpretations onto my comments ?

                      I have been saying “nah I’d rather wait” and have not indicated I expect anything through my comments

                      That you appear to have become offended (?) in my position of appreciating your suggestion and perceived balance and thoughtfulness via twisting my comments is on you

                      I acknowledge and accept my error of judgement in your ability to be balanced or thoughtful and that is on me

                      Chok Dee

                    • McFlock

                      I acknowledge and accept my error of judgement in your ability to be balanced or thoughtful and that is on me


                      Your error in judgement was to assume that you could get away with not presenting an opinion of your own for an indefinite period of time.

                      Why so coy about presenting your own opinion? Do you really think you are so awesome that expressing your own thoughts would skew everyone else’s opinion?

                      BTW I read the link and listened to the interview.

                    • weka

                      dammit McFlock, I hadn’t seen that reply.

                      Hey, ho, it was getting tedious anway.

  31. weka 32

    Sunday morning on RNZ looking interesting too, including this,

    7:08 Current Affairs – Call to Keep the Coal in the Hole

    Christophe McGlade from University College London talks to Wallace about his study, recently published in the journal Nature, which says much of the world’s fossil fuels must be left in the ground in order to keep the global temperature rise under the 2-degree safety limit agreed by the world’s nations.

    Aaron Packard, Oceania region co-ordinator for 350.org will talk about the grassroots global climate movement’s Global Divestment Days Feb 13 and 14, encouraging investors to pull out of fossil fuel companies.

    Then Wallace speaks to Chris Baker, the chief executive of Straterra, an organisation that represents the NZ minerals and mining sector, about how the industry is meeting these challenges.

    Finally, Simon Bridges, Minister of Energy and Resources and Associate Minister for Climate Change Issues talks about New Zealand’s response to the competing demands to both extract fossil fuels – and tackle global warming.


  32. b waghorn 33

    Tova O’Brien has been pushing the national can’t lose bullshit regarding the by election twice today why can’t reporters just fucken report .

  33. greywarshark 34

    Joyce in UNACT newsletter :
    Average wages are also showing healthy growth, lifting 2.6 per cent over the year – well ahead of the 0.8 per cent inflation rate – and New Zealand continues to fare better than most of the OECD.
    The other striking element of the new data is the record high participation in the labour market, of 69.7 per cent. This increase means unemployment rises slightly to 5.7 per cent despite the strong job growth.

    Some questions Joyce might like to attempt a factual answer to:
    1 0.8% inflation sounds like deflation. Is it only housing providing significant rising prices and revenues..
    2 What are median wages at present?
    3 And what was % the rise on them over the year?4
    Is the OECD comparison useful? Can we have an actual concrete comparison as to which country are we compatible with – slightly above Nigeria and Tibet and Greece? Which?
    4 What is the equivalent full time job percentage of total employment?
    5 What are the % of four divisions of employment, full time (old style 40 hrs per week),
    Full time (new style 30 hours per week), between 10-30 hours and under 10 hours per week.
    6 What number of workers have less than 10 hours work per week.
    7 How many workers are working into the old classification of anti-social hours, say outside of 8.00 a.m. and 5 p.m.

    • nadis 34.1

      I can help with some answers:

      1. 0.8% inflation is not deflation. Deflation needs to have one of these “-” in front of the number.

      Housing is not included in the CPI, so no, housing is not providing significant rising prices to the CPI. Raw materials used in building new houses are included, but not house or land prices.

      2. In Dec 2014, $1101 per week.

      3. Up 2.3% yoy
      http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/income-and-work/employment_and_unemployment/LabourMarketStatistics_HOTPDec14qtr.aspx (all the data below can be found here)

      4. You should compare with countries that are similar to us, but everyone defines similar differently. Perhaps similar PPP GDP per capita? On this ranking (yay #46!) we are just below Saudi Arabia (Uneployment rate 11.7%) and Faroe islands (cant find it but Denmark 4.0%), just above Spain (23.7%) and UAE (4.2%). Or this ranking (GDP Per Capita) we are #26 just below France (8.0%) and UK (5.8%), just above Japan (3.5%) and Brunei (2.7%).

      4 again. See 5 below – answer is there. The Full time Equivalent stat is a bit dicey. It is arbitrarily calculate as # full time jobs + 0.5 part time jobs. The calculation below I think makes more sense.

      5. I think what you really trying to find is the number of under-employed i.e., those currently working but available for more work: 112,800 out of total workforce 2,518,000 = 4.5%

      Part time employees- these are those happy to be part time, not looking for extra work: 534,200 /2,518,000= 22.3%

      Unemployed = 143,000/2,518,000 = 5.7%

      So employed full time = 1,585,000/2,518,000 =62.9% of workforce.

      6. Don’t think they gather stats by “< 10 hours". But the better measure anyway would be currently working but looking for more work. That is 112,800 people or 4.5% of workforce.

      7. That's tougher to find data on, but also a bit misleading. Many people choose to work those hours i.e., restaurant and bar staff, police, some industrial workers, nurses etc. Again what I think you're looking for is people working anti-social hours who are forced to. Not sure where to find that but I think the number would be relatively low.

      There you go – wasn't hard to find. Took me 10 minutes. Next time don't be lazy and do it yourself.

      • greywarshark 34.1.1

        @ nadis
        Thank you for the info. And no thank you for the homily and sneer at the end.
        I actually have never found it easy to find the info that i wanted for stats and spent hours fiddling round. And even you with all your expertise could not find some that I think is important and should be stated. So save dumping your shit on me.
        Just ignore my comments in future- I don’t want someone so superior to feel they must put themselves out. Do it gladly, politely or not at all.

  34. A Voter 35

    Lets have ago THE BISHOP and there are alot of old kiwi slang terms and objects that tell the truth about that
    Brian Tamaki or Temi or Tero Tero excuse me if my spelling is wrong if you know what they are ,arch right winger from the land of “God Home Mother and Apple Pie” to quote Dave Crosby (The Byrds) where homosexuals, kids can be beaten to death by law, blacks and any other coloured people are pegged as religiously destitute in need of spiritual enlightenment of the type that went with the conquistadors
    His fascist stance a few years ago marching down Queen St I believe, here he is now with a gun in one hand pig hunting ,and probably a bible in the other, a cover for his belief in the afore mentioned surely he could be taxed out of existence if we had some sort of morality in the value of these sort of people to actually expand the understanding of human spirituality but I fear only to the size of a pigs brain
    The rest is thought of your own

    • McFlock 35.1

      hasn’t he had himself ordained pope yet?
      Or I suspect he’ll just skip that step and declare himself the god of hair grease.

  35. Morrissey 36

    He said nothing while his friend spewed anti-Māori invective for years;
    Mike Hosking is the LAST person who should talk about “acrimony”.

    Television One, Thursday 5 February 2015

    On Seven Sharp tonight, host Mike Hosking gurned sardonically at the camera and burbled how there was far less “acrimony” at Waitangi this year.

    What unbelievable cheek this fellow has. What unmitigated gall. What brass-plated, industrial-grade hypocrisy from this poseur, this imposter, this fawning toady to the powerful and the wealthy, this corrupt and cynical booster of casinos, this contemptible and vacuous lightweight of lightweights in the pathetic, anxious sea of lightweights that constitutes Television One’s dire and ever-diminishing “talent pool”.

    Waitangi Day has (rightly) been the focus of serious political protest for decades now. But any acrimony has come almost entirely from the extreme right wing—and one person stands out in particular.

    One of the vilest, most acrimonious racist harangues in living memory was unleashed on readers of the Herald three years ago by Paul Holmes—- one of Hosking’s friends and colleagues at NewstalkZB. Holmes raved insanely for 21 hate-filled paragraphs. Here’s a taster, if you can bear it….

    …hateful, hate-fuelled weirdos who seem to exist in a perfect world of benefit provision… irrational Maori ghastliness with spitting, smugness, self-righteousness and the usual neurotic Maori politics… it’s a bullshit day, Waitangi… It is loony Maori fringe self-denial day…. it’s all the Pakeha’s fault. It’s all about hating whitey… Forget it. It is too awful and nasty and common. It is no more New Zealand day than Halloween…. Nor would I take my Uncle Ken who died in a Wellington bomber, then try and tell him Waitangi Day was anything but filth…. Let them go and raid a bit more kai moana than they need for the big, and feed themselves silly, speak of the injustices heaped upon them by the greedy Pakeha and work out new ways of bamboozling the Pakeha to come up with a few more millions….

    Holmes then veers off into another mad frenzy, this one directed at “the breast feeding fascists” and then he has an obscene—and ignorant—spray about Syria. But what really excites his fevered brain is the bloody end of Mrs Assad…

    He’s married to a very beautiful British woman, Bashir, a real English rose. One report suggested she and her family had tried to leave Syria last week but the convoy had been seen and turned back. She must know what’s coming. Armageddon is what’s coming. One dreads to imagine what they’ll do to her pretty face.


    Mike Hosking never said a word about that download of acrimonious filth from his friend and colleague, who was beyond doubt one of this country’s more notorious racists.

    Nobody with any sense takes Mike Hosking seriously on any topic, of course; to give any credence to what he has to say on race relations one would need to have one’s head examined.

    • Paul 36.1

      A sock puppet.

      • Morrissey 36.1.1

        A very irritating sock puppet. The most annoying sock puppet since this guy….

      • adam 36.1.2

        Now Holmes was a vile little man. His behaviour towards family after Aramoana, was bestial – it was then I realised, the right wing in this country are a bunch of self serving, nasty, little creeps. He sat like king muck telling us what was going to happen, when we’d had family and friends die. His fake pathos made everyone in the room sick – he was not invited back – he got no interview. And no one in that room watched, or listened to him again.

    • North 36.2

      You declaim very eloquently Morrissey…….I am a relatively vulgar. Hosking, the skinny jeans, the boy-hairdo, the mutton-dressed-up-as-lamb, the ‘poseur’ (thank you Morrissey), the archetypal Cafe Society git though self-elevated above that prosaic , bought and paid for by SkyCity – Hosking the up-himself big fish in a small pond. Such a pity really. He’s endowed intellectually but oh how he abuses that in favour of narcissism and cheap vanity. And Parnell BBQ tickets. Does his wife get a look-in ?

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