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Open mike 06/08/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 6th, 2013 - 200 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

200 comments on “Open mike 06/08/2013 ”

  1. amirite 1

    For the real-life effects of clostridium botulinum, refer to Judith Collins’ face.

    • weka 1.1

      I suppose that makes a change from Jenny or Morrissey postin first up…

      • Morrissey 1.1.1

        Actually, my fine feathered friend, it is quite a long time since I have been first on the board. I have been so busy lately I just haven’t had the time.

    • Winston Smith 1.2

      Really? Pointing out a female MPs features…so sad to see sexism still existing here

    • Pete 1.3

      I think discussing the looks of our politicians – particularly women – is poor form. I was uneasy with the way people talked of Helen Clark in similar terms, or even when people talked positively about Nikki Kaye and Jacinda Ardern. Men do get it too – Gerry Brownlee gets flak from time to time for his weight, but it seems to happen far less often for guys, even though men make up the majority of politicians. I realise I can’t stop it, but I do think less of people who resort to such personal statements, much in the same way I think poorly of people who make ad hominem arguments.

      • Winston Smith 1.3.1

        I know I used to (I mean lets face it Labour do make it easy) but I’m trying to get away from all that stuff…it should be about their performance and in this case JC is my pick to take over from JK

      • felix 1.3.2

        Jolly good, Pete. And good for you, Winston. Really.

        Now would one of you care to get down off your cross and point to where anyone is “discussing the looks of politicians” or “pointing out a female MPs features”?

        • marty mars

          “For the real-life effects of clostridium botulinum, refer to Judith Collins’ face.”

          I think that is the bit. The wiki page shows the real-life effects.

          • Chris

            The point (I hope) is that clostridium botulinum is used for botox not that she looks like she has Botulism

            • bad12

              Only oral botulism which in the afflicted forces from them a continuous stream of ugly poisonous, pus filled conversation…

              • bad12

                For a suspect of a male politician so vain as to have had the Botox treatment you cannot go past John(the convicted)Banks…

                • alwyn

                  Would you be just as amused by the following statements?

                  For a suspect of a male politician so vain as to have had the Botox treatment you cannot go past Trevor(the convicted)Mallard…
                  or perhaps
                  For a suspect of a male politician so vain as to have had the Botox treatment you cannot go past Hone(the convicted)Harawira…

                  • vto

                    A funny thing happened

                    tonight in the front of the telly

                    I looked hard at Minister Collins forehead

                    it was rather smooth

                    from rubbing it against

                    the brick wall of

                    the law no doubt

          • felix

            That’s a comment about using botox. It’s comment on her vanity

            ffs are we not allowed to point out vanity now? How about idiocy? Can we still point out a politician’s idiocy or is that forbidden too? And what about dishonesty?

            I’m going to need a serious answer to this: Is it no longer acceptable to notice that we are being governed by vain, dishonest idiots?


            edit: snap Chris!

            • weka

              Here is what was said.

              “For the real-life effects of clostridium botulinum, refer to Judith Collins’ face.”

              Hands up how many people thought the comment was about Collins’ face, or Collins’ vanity?

              Felix, there are issues with commenting on either. Prominent women get shit for their appearance, esp politicians. If you want to make jokes about it, expect that joke to be put in its socio-political context.

              • felix

                I’m sorry you didn’t understand the joke, weka. But there’s nothing I can do about that now.

                • weka

                  Giving up so easily felix?

                  In fact, when I first read it I thought it was about Collins’ face looking like she had botulism. Whatever. You can interpret the joke however you like, but I’d still like to see how many people read it the way you did, or the possible two other interpretations.

                  • felix

                    As you know, weka, I’m not responsible for the way morons might interpret a relatively straightforward statement.

                    You on the other hand are welcome to fill your boots.

                    • weka

                      Lolz, who elected you final arbiter of the meaning of every statement on ts?

                    • felix

                      Never suggested I was.

                      Neither am I going to apologise for being able to read and comprehend something you’ve demonstrably failed to.

              • muzza

                The original comment from, amirite, was very obvious…

                I concur with Chris/Felix here, it seemed very obvious, and even if it wasn’t that’s how I took it.

                People here need to either:

                A: focus
                B: relax
                C: both

                • ‘very obvious’ may be stretching it and it seems like the people who took the ‘very obvious’ inference are the ones getting worked up.

                  @felix “ffs are we not allowed to point out vanity now? How about idiocy? Can we still point out a politician’s idiocy or is that forbidden too? And what about dishonesty?”

                  I think vanity is okay to go for and idiocy and dishonesty too. Personally though ripping into key because he has/has not got a hairpiece is pretty weak imo, there is always a downside to going in with those attacks mainly because none of us, or the politicians we support, are perfect so it can get a bit tit for taty. I just don’t care the collins may or may not have botox in her face perhaps that why I missed the joke.

                  • muzza

                    Hey Marty, when I saw your comment below, “must be a moron I suppose.”

                    I was going to respond, but figured you were being self depricating, as opposed to fishing for a response, that was my interpretation of your comment, but it could have been varying degress of misinterpretation, from your intent.

                    What this situation illustrates, is the limitations/barriers of digital communication, once again.

                    Have a good one.

                    • I don’t really think I’m a moron and my initial response to felix’s question was with a straight bat and yes I just didn’t get the jokey inference from the initial comment.

                      You are correct that language is a very blunt tool to get the message across and within the digital platform any challenges are compounded. Words often have a subjective value and don’t mean the same thing to different people – makes the discussions and debates fun though 🙂

                      You have a good one too muzza.

                  • felix

                    “it seems like the people who took the ‘very obvious’ inference are the ones getting worked up.”

                    Yeah, I don’t like it when people pretend I’ve said things I haven’t. I imagine you probably feel the same way.

            • marty mars

              Oh well I didn’t get the joke – must be a moron I suppose.

          • weka

            I think felix means that amitrite’s comment didn’t say anything about Collins being a woman, the implication being that they could just as easily have made the comment about a man and the insult joke would have worked. Which is of course daft.

            • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell

              I am surprised Collins uses botox. But you wouldn’t be able to tell by looking at my face.

            • felix

              Could you explain what’s daft about that please weka?

              • weka

                Making a joke about a man having botox doesn’t have the same cultural baggage attached to it that making the joke about a woman does. Women have real, serious barriers in society, and one of the ways those barriers get enforced is by the culturally sanctioned sexism that constantly puts women in their place.

                Do you honestly think that the joke would have been made about a male politician? Which one?

                • felix

                  Oh what utter bullshit weka.

                  Banks regularly gets stick for using botox. Key gets stick for wearing a rug.

                  Males who openly display vanity are regularly pilloried throughout our society.

                  • weka

                    Not as much, and you are still missing the point. I’ll put it another way. Commenting on the appearance of women or men happens for different reasons and has different effects because of the different social context and prejudices.

                    How about you point out how comments about JK’s rug tie in with sexism against men.

                    • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell

                      If it is any consolation, weka, I do not think Collins would be offended.

                    • weka

                      Why would I care whether Collins was offended or not?

                    • felix

                      “How about you point out how comments about JK’s rug tie in with sexism against men.”

                      Why would I do that, weka? I never suggested sexism was behind such comments.

                      And why choose that comparison rather than the direct one with Banks?

                    • weka

                      “I never suggested sexism was behind such comments.”

                      Then why compare it to a sexist joke about women?

            • felix

              weka: “I think felix means that amitrite’s comment didn’t say anything about Collins being a woman, the implication being that they could just as easily have made the comment about a man and the insult joke would have worked. Which is of course daft.”

              No, that’s not what I meant at all. If I’d meant that I would’ve typed it.

              What I meant was what I sad: the comment was not a slight on anyone’s physical features.

          • Colonial Viper

            This thread demonstrates the mighty tide of Left versus Right politics solving the problems of the world. Why am I not surprised that 3/4 of a million people decided to stay at home last time.

            • weka

              This thread demonstrates yet again how the white male left likes to pretend that issues that doesn’t affect it aren’t important and can therefore be marginalised.

              • vto

                how do you get that from that weka?

                • weka

                  I know CV’s view on this. He thinks gender politics are identity politics and not important like the Real politics (economics, class, poverty etc).

                  At least that’s what I think he meant. Am happy to be corrected 🙂

                  • Colonial Viper

                    I actually agree with your position weka that there is no good reason that gender/identity politics do not necessarily have to stop progressive economic/class politics. And that advances in the two can go hand in hand.

                    Of course, the “can go hand in hand” hides the fact that it’s just not the way it actually happens. So while the middle class and wealthy left wing elite are happy to partner with the economic right wing to make massive advances in gender and identity issues we go no where except backwards on issues of poverty, class and economic inequity because the left wing elite have given up advocating for those issues. Aside from occasional mutterings of lip service.

                    But it’s unmistakable progress that a gay couple can now be married, even if they have to live in minimum wage/unemployed poverty on zero hour casual contracts. Left wing beggers can’t be choosy and all you need is love.

                    And the hope that one day, the left wing elite will once more advocate for a living wage just as stridently and as forcefully as they advocate for gay marriage.

                    • weka

                      Yep, tend to agree with that to an extent (don’t believe that the gains are massive though, and sometimes we’re losing ground*). No problem with holding the middle classes to account for their classism and privilege. I think it’s more complex than that though (eg Maori issues aren’t being advanced by the white middle classes)

                      Good to know we disagree on degree rather than principle 🙂

                      *there was something on TDB recently about young women earning hugely less than their male peers. Will see if I can find it.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      The problem remains weka: the influential left wing elite have basically abandoned the underclass and the working class (and they did this a long time ago).

                      Hip-hooray and all that for the pushing of private members bills on: same sex marriage, same sex couple adoption, euthanasia, etc.

                      Compared to how many private members bills on extending paid parental leave to 26 weeks? To increasing the minimum wage to a living wage of $18/hour? On forcing employers to give every employee information on joining the local union?

                      Answer: it rhymes with the word “Hero”.

                      edit one exception, David Clark’s holiday bill which was helpful to routine Mon-Fri workers (including those on very high salaries) in effectively giving those specific workers a day or two more holidays per year.

                    • vto

                      CV, what you describe there imo has driven away many people with laboury lefty type sensibilities.

                      They see those social issues as secondary to the employment economic issues that see so many fall in the ditch. They recognise the importance of those social issues but do not agree with the weighting given to them by Labour (in recent history).

                      If Labour were to make more of the employment economic issues and less of the social ones then it would achieve more electoral support.


                    • weka

                      You’re talking about parliamentary politics CV and I tend to agree, although as I said I don’t think the gains have been massive. Plus the GP obviously do better on this.

                      I was talking about politics in general.

                    • McFlock

                      Compared to how many private members bills on extending paid parental leave to 26 weeks? To increasing the minimum wage to a living wage of $18/hour? On forcing employers to give every employee information on joining the local union?

                      It’s amazing how shit the parliamentary left look when you cherry-pick specific issues for private members’ bills, CV:
                      Child Poverty Reduction and Eradication Bill
                      Jacinda Ardern

                      Commission of Inquiry (Actions of Government Communications Security Bureau) Bill
                      Kris Faafoi

                      Corrections (Cost of PPP) Amendment Bill
                      Hon David Cunliffe

                      Crimes (Corporate Manslaughter) Amendment Bill
                      Andrew Little

                      Education (Community Representation on Polytechnic Councils) Amendment Bill
                      Hon Nanaia Mahuta

                      Education (Food in Schools ) Amendment Bill
                      David Shearer

                      Employment Relations (Triangular Employment) Amendment Bill
                      Darien Fenton

                      Keep Kiwibank Bill
                      Hon Clayton Cosgrove

                      Minimum Wage (Contractor Remuneration) Amendment Bill
                      Hon David Parker

                      That’s just Labour. The greens also have some excellent bills in the ballot. So yeah, while the issues you mentioned aren’t specifically covered, it’s not like the left’s sole contribution to the ballot revolves around PC social issues that you don’t give a shit about because you don’t think they affect you.

                    • “the middle class and wealthy left wing elite”

                      Is there such an animal? If they ‘partner’ with the right are they still left? If they don’t care about inequalities are they still left? Maybe a new term should be used because the oxymoron’s are overrunning the place. Can you be an anti-capitalist capitalist? Can you say you believe in equality but also support inequality? Does not compute imo.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      hey McFlock, thanks for that random list of private members bills from Labour MPs.

                      Which one of those Bills was the one moving the minimum wage up to a living wage?

                      Or establishing a policy of full employment?

                      Or lifting benefit levels up from below the poverty line?

                    • McFlock

                      No problem, CV. The elimination of child poverty bill would seem to contribute to your last point.

                      With regards to the rest of your questions, though, frankly I am shocked and stunned that you seek only to benefit those people who are already on the minimum wage, yet you cruelly choose to abandon those contractors who do not even get the minimum wage at the moment.

                      I also must view your refusal to devote attention to the issue of corporate manslaughter as a ringing endorsement of protecting CEOs and corporate bigwigs from responsibility for the deaths that they cause through their companies.

                      Basically, your refusal to address these issues (that are important to vulnerable workers in our society) is further proof that you are in fact a neoliberal stooge who will not commit to supporting socialist policies. I know this because you have not taken the time to express concern, at length, for every single socialist policy that I believe in, so therefore you abandoned the underclass long ago.

                      or maybe: arguing that somebody has “abandoned the underclass” just because they don’t address the issues that twist your personal nuts is a bit conceited

                    • QoT

                      massive advances in gender and identity issues

                      lol what.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      lol what.

                      You and about 1500 other voters, feel free to chuckle all you want.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      No problem, CV. The elimination of child poverty bill would seem to contribute to your last point.

                      Yeah, Ardern wants a law forcing the measurement of child poverty and the setting of appropriate targets. Then she’s going to force the Government of the day to talk about it in parliament once a year, as well as have a Child Poverty Board which will be fucked the first year of the next Tory term.

                      Real breakthroughs against child poverty, those.

                      or maybe: arguing that somebody has “abandoned the underclass” just because they don’t address the issues that twist your personal nuts is a bit conceited

                      that’s odd, because the people I talk to associated with the Alliance, Greens, Mana, Unite, etc. all know what I’m on about.

                      Perhaps you should catch up.

                    • McFlock

                      Yeah, Ardern wants a law forcing the measurement of child poverty and the setting of appropriate targets. Real breakthroughs against child poverty, that.

                      Yes, yes it is. It forces all parties to address the issue, and provides a benchmark of how well we’re doing. Look at the dialogues about GDP and unemployment vs how we talk about child poverty. And I know you hate the concept of thought before action, but it really is the only way we can try to avoid making things worse.

                      or maybe: arguing that somebody has “abandoned the underclass” just because they don’t address the issues that twist your personal nuts is a bit conceited

                      that’s odd, because the people I talk to associated with the Alliance, Greens, Mana, Unite, etc. all know what I’m on about.

                      That’s lovely, and totally relevant to the point. /sarc
                      They were probably all “smile, nod, and back away from the deranged self-loathing Labourite”.

                      Perhaps you should catch up.

                      Planks from your own eye, and all that.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Thanks for your gallant advocacy of Labour measuring child poverty, setting goals and enforcing regular parliamentary chat about it of Molesworth St.

                      That’s what I call an effective (appear to do something but actually do-nothing) policy to help children out of poverty.

                      You’re out of touch McFlock. You should head to a few GP, Mana or Unite meetings. International Socialists can be fun too.

                    • McFlock

                      The last IS meeting I was at, everyone sat around and said how great the world be if only people listened to the IS.

                      I get enough of that at TS, thanks. Without the body odour.

                      In case you hadn’t noticed, if a government doesn’t talk about something, then a government doesn’t do anything about it.

                      Which I think seems to be your justification for calling the labour caucus sellouts just because they haven’t put forward the specific members’ bills that you no doubt have been personally advocating and shepherding through the Labour policy selection process over the last few years (haven’t you?).

              • felix

                Are you a white male, weka? Who else in the thread is?

                • weka

                  No I’m not. Pretty sure CV is, but my point was about CV starting up with the marginalisation of ‘identity politics’ (again, am happy to be corrected if that’s not where he was going).

                  Nevertheless, I was pointing to the politics of the white, male left (irrespective of the gender/ethnicity of people posting right now).

                  • felix

                    Ah, irrespective of people posting right now but nonetheless applying the assumption to them anyway.


                    • weka

                      Nah, you missed the point. I was just rewriting CV’s post, to cut off the marginalisation of ‘identity politics’. If you think such a thing doesn’t happen, I’m sorry you don’t understand but there is nothing I can do about that now.

                    • felix

                      Right, so you were only talking about CV and not about the other commenters in the thread, about which you know fuck all.

                      Whatever weka.

                    • weka

                      No, I’m also referring to your marginalising of sexism too. I don’t care what your gender/ethnicity is, I’m referring to your politics now.

                    • felix

                      Ok, so you’re referring to something I didn’t do at all then.

              • karol

                Indeed. And the whole current twitter debate shows how women get singled out for more abuse than men – not that similar things don’t happen to some men also, but see this article and the comments by a tr*ll, who says he picks on women because they are easy targets/vulnerable/react.

                Though, to go off on a tangent, when I read the article I was particularly interested in the wider issue that technology cannot solve social problems.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Which is interesting because we live in a culture which pushes more technology as being good, and that advances in technology will provide answers to the most pressing human needs.

                  But when you drill down into that…it’s actually a corporate commercial value system that has been widely indoctrinated into society.

                  • karol

                    Technology does make life easier in many ways. But new technologies often bring new problems. And some older technologies keep on providing benefits: radio, bicycles, etc.

                    The capitalist value system includes valuing anything “new” – because that means they can encourage people to throw away the old, and buy the newer version.

                    But social problems tend to migrate to newer technologies, albeit with some changes in how they operate.

                    Digital technologies do not automatically result in poverty reduction, decreases in inequality, a more democratic society, less misogyny or racism, etc.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Technology does make life easier in many ways.

                      Ahhhhh yes it does, but it’s actually the energy channelled or embodied by the technology which makes life easier, and this is well worth listening to in that regard…if you haven’t already seen it that is:

                      (Nikiforuk on ‘Energy Slaves’)

      • weka 1.3.3

        Thanks Pete.

        “Gerry Brownlee gets flak from time to time for his weight, but it seems to happen far less often for guys, even though men make up the majority of politicians.”

        Indeed. And what Brownlee gets is fatphobia, which is a different thing (still sucks). How many male policitians get shit for their appearance because they’re not conforming to social norms about what real men should like like? Dunne does for his haircut. Anyone else?

        • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell

          Simon Bridges for his impossibly good looks?

          • bad12

            Slippery the Prime Minister inserted Him into the Cabinet line-up as eye candy to keep the rest of them awake, the sound of pacemakers going berserk was said to be deafening…

        • vto

          Key for his short podgy fingers.

          Key for his lack of muscles

          Key for his big honker.

          Key for his general podginess.

          Key for his toupe.

          Key for his lying eyes.

          • weka

            Citations vto, because we wouldn’t want to miss the sexism attached to those comments.

            • weka

              btw, I’m not averse to talking about how society sanctions social control of how men look. Just that it’s different than the issue for women.

  2. Ad 2

    I recall a futures broker saying a couple of years ago: “Dairy is a New Zealand play.”

    Meaning both that the global dependence of the world on New Zealand dairy exports for the traded global price is incredibly high and vulnerable, and also that the entire economy of New Zealand should be read as one and the same as the dairy price.

    Eventually the New Zealand government will wake to how vulnerable its nation and its interests are to Fonterra.

    • vto 2.1

      New Zealand is not beholden to dairy, this dreamworld stuff needs to stop.

      What New Zealanders are beholden to is the forward selling of dairy by way of taking on massive and unrealistic debt levels to pay for the dairy farms (forward sold value) and to pay for the out-of-control housing bubble in various spots. The government has of course also fallen into this trap by expecting that it can rely on dairy and consequently also take on more debt, or future obligations in return for a return in this term of office.

      New Zealand is not beholden to dairy, but many New Zealanders and the New Zealand government is beholden to the masters it has forward-sold dairy to.

      The rest of us without debt or future obligation? Nothing to worry about (except the fallout from those other fools when they collapse in a heap).

      • tc 2.1.1

        +1 Fonterra is a bloated inefficient organisation hiding behind the high Price/kg mild solids fetch.

        Once china/sth america catch up in terms of milk powder production (mostly taught by Fonterra/Wrightsons etc) the game’s up and it’s not too far away.

        Most dairy farms will then become unprofitable as the price /kg drops as they’re over farming/fertilising now polluting the waterways etc

        Even country calendar has shown more than once that the sustainable dairy model is better for land, animal welfare and farmer returns.

        • Saarbo

          I think you are right TC, because volumes of trade don’t have to change much for large swings in international dairy prices, as we witnessed with the movement in price caused by the NI drought earlier this year. When I asked a Westpac economist this question, he reckoned that the extra volume created by South America would be easily consumed by the growing demand in Asia/India. But that may well be the picture long term but we will see some real volatility in the mean time. The farmers that will be in trouble will be the farmers with more than $20 debt per kg milk solid produced….which I think is about average. So half of NZ dairy farmers could find themselves in trouble.

  3. muzza 3

    A chorus of criminals, speaks




    This last link is interesting…


    These officials “believe there are Al Qaeda operatives already in place for this attack in Yemen and possibly in other countries as well”

    John Key had advanced notice of the so called warning, which he casually referenced the there were NZ’ers who were training in Yemen, what a horrid little man!

  4. ropata 4

    Another note from the “Brighter Future”

    Manufacturing sector confidence down

    Total sales in June fell nearly 30% , compared with the same month last year with both export and domestic sales down.

    The current performance index, which combines profitability and cash flow, has fallen to 98, down from 104 in May.

    A figure below 100 indicates a contraction.

    our future with National = 1984

    • blue leopard 4.1

      @ Ropata

      but…but….but…that has nothing to do our policies…it is due to the GFC and …and….the NZ Labour Party….its all their fault…nothing to do with us We are not responsible(TM) for anything (oh! apart from when stats are good)

      ~ signed the Irresponsible Bullshit Artists Limited Liability Company (otherwise known as the current government)

  5. bad12 5

    Audrey Young, today’s winner of the golden turd award for a grand piece of Jonolism in today’s Herald,

    Young simply prints verbatim Slippery the Prime Ministers lines from yesterday that He, the Prime Minister, knew nothing of the Dunne/Vance emails and that that naughty public servant Kibblewhite hid them from everyone on the 9th floor of the Beehive,

    Not a query from Young in the vein of ”but surely Eaggleson the Prime Ministers Chief of Staff up to His elbows, sloshing amid the offal and entrails of this dirty little spy scandal must have known and told the Prime Minister”,

    There’s a hell of a difference between journalism and political commentary and Young, Armstrong and the various other ‘political columnists’ have for years been engaged by the Herald to produce the latter not the former,

    When it suits these tired old hacks that the Herald employs tho, they suddenly resort to journalism where they ‘report’ the ‘facts’ as given to them in this case by the Prime Minister,

    You would think from Young’s pathetic effort in today’s Herald that She had never once become aware of politicians using lies, deceit and spin in an effort to fool the public,

    A worthy winner of a coveted ‘Golden Turd’ for Her efforts in stooping to new lows in political reporting in my opinion…

  6. Rosetinted 6

    The Minister for Food Safety or something while talking this morning on radio about the Fonterra scare said they had to wait on Fonterra to produce the information needed to understand the situation and what is being done to correct it. No mention of any decent regulations or overview or control being introduced.

    Federated Farmers want to hold the head of the Board accountable. Nothing constructive about preventing this sort of hoo ha happening again. And how impressive to the Chinese!, neither we nor Nutricia can come up with information because of systems failure with them, and for us, just bloody incompetence, slackness and perhaps machiavellian calculation about the optimum time to release the unwelcome information. And I felt so annoyed with China about the melamine disgrace putting a taint on our milk and NZs good name! I was deluded, and how sad to find that out through this scandal.

    We are already suffering from the abject grovelling to the world for the right to get our dairy products through the border controls of various countries. Like a keen shapely whore we have whipped open our enfolding tariff barriers, leaving us naked and vulnerable to the winds of disaster. Sounds OTT and dramatic but this little problem has turned out to be a massive disaster for us. It will result in a massive loss of confidence in th quality of our goods – that we have spent a century building up. Unfortunately we have of latter years eroded our controls and standards in complacency and defiance against imposed safety and quality standards.

    • bad12 6.1

      Exactly Rosetinted, where in all this is the fail-safe regulation, should not all the regular testing carried out by Fon-terror be subject of a regulation that such testing (a) be mandatory, and (b) the Ministry of Food Safety immediately be in receipt of copies of such testing where ANY anomaly is immediately flagged by the testing agency in terms of good, bad, ugly and the appropriate level of response readiness in terms of knowledge and capability is in place at the Ministry of Food safety to act in an appropriate manner,

      Lack of regulation in the workplace/market place kills people, politicians who refuse to enact necessary regulatory reforms are complicit in such deaths…

      • Arfamo 6.1.1

        “Fonterror” – lol. Very good.

      • weka 6.1.2

        I commented in the Botulism thread yesterday from a link that the Jackal posted, where a microbiologist pointed out that it’s not normal to test milk for Clostridium.

        Maybe we could wait until we have some facts before we start clamouring for action to be taken. Do we even know what happened yet?

        • Saarbo

          You have been consistent with your message Weka, and i suspect that you will be proved right eventually. But there is still going to be some casualties way beyond what should have logically resulted from this scare. Gary Romano from Fonterra was on Campbell Live last night and I think they should have him fronting on behalf of Fonterra. But I do now understand the timing issue of announcements…(I hope Romano does not become a victim because he is probably one of the smartest Logistic/Production Managers in the country).

          The big problem is that fonterra does not have a media spokesperson communicating with the media in NZ,so all of the commentators are speculating and creating all sorts of stories.

          Fonterra need to get Gary Romano fronting, but I presume he is doing all of the work behind the scenes as well….I guess he cant be everywhere.

          • weka

            Thanks Saarbo. It’s a bummer for me, because if the microbiology was being handled more sensibly I could sit back and watch Fonterra get its just desserts 😉

    • Colonial Viper 6.2

      Federated Farmers want to hold the head of the Board accountable. Nothing constructive about preventing this sort of hoo ha happening again.

      I think you have the wrong take on this. Any serious preventative action requires a thorough understanding of the facts and failure mechanisms around this incident. That will take time and will be both a highly technical and in depth management oriented process.

      Enforcing accountability at the top of the hierarchy can be done more quickly and is actually the rarer step in todays “anything goes” corporate culture. I am glad that someone is pushing for it. Too often we see empty promises of “corrective/preventative action” while the big guys at the top just sail on happily collecting their pay checks taking no personal responsibility whatsoever for their role in a given mess.

      BTW I am still expecting investor law suits to be announced this week.

    • aerobubble 6.3

      The correct reaction would have been to collect information about what happened to the tainted ?whey? and got a list of products to recall together, then go public. The problem seems to be downstream buyers of the product have lax managements. But the question still remains how did they find out what happened, and that forced them to look back and find the dirty pipe…

      …look as to fed.farmers, they hardly represent farmers since they obvious have no conscience over high farm prices that harm young farmers entering the industry, force existing farmers to pay more to buy more land, and lead to higher mortgages as farmers can take riskier growth strategies. And for what? so the big smoke can grow its own housing bubble off leaky, damp, car sprawling suburbs. Fed.farmers are a disgrace for getting in bed with National.

      • weka 6.3.1

        Industrial food supply chains are inherently risky.

        And Fed Farmers, what percentage of NZ farmers actually belong?

  7. Sam 7

    Now we can see the need for the GCSB bill, the flush out the terrorists in Fonterror.

  8. johnm 8

    Further evidence as if we needed it that Privatisation is in important strategic areas of society anti social and destructive this article from the collapsing disaster that is the U$ of selfishness and greed, where the 1% crow with their wealth on top of the steadily getting poorer majority. This is the system that made Yankey rich and which he follows against the wishes of the majority to privatise our power companies.

    “8 Ways Privatization Has Failed America”


    “I’ve been saying this for 30 years, I suppose it’s comforting that the rest of the country is STARTING to wake up, but how much is it going to cost us to get these PUBLIC things back? The rich aren’t going to give up their cash cows all that easily. They are going to make out like bandits AGAIN when we have to pay to take back what we paid for in the first place.”

    And the U$K continues down the same disastrous road. The NHS is the current target despite the protests of the people democracy doesn’t count: rather profit before people. neoliberalism has made the U$ a third world nation but with huge military power. Once the U$ $ loses its reserve petro status the U$ is finished and the USK is following rapidly.

  9. Veutoviper 9

    Parliament Today.

    The committee stages of the GCSB Bill will commence this afternoon. As yet, Dunne’s Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) not appeared on the Parliament website.

    However, Labour has put up a SOP proposing substantive changes to the Bill to require that:

    “… within one month of the commencement of the part of the Bill amending
    the GCSB Act (the commencement), the Minister in charge of the GCSB must determine, with the
    agreement of the leaders of each political party for the time being recognised for parliamentary
    purposes under the Standing Orders of the House of Representatives:
     the terms of reference for an independent inquiry into the purposes and functions of New
    Zealand’s intelligence agencies; and
     the membership of a committee (consisting of 3-5 persons) to oversee and conduct the
    independent inquiry into the purposes and functions of New Zealand’s intelligence agencies.

    The inquiry committee must within six months of the commencement report to the Minister containing:
     recommendations on the proper purposes and functions of New Zealand’s intelligence
    agencies; and
     any legislative proposals required to implement those recommendations (amending Part 1 of
    the Bill by inserting New Clause 25A).

    Part 1 of the Bill (amending the GCSB Act), Part 2 of the Bill (amending the IGIS Act) and Part 3 of the Bill (amending the ISC Act) each expire 12 months after the respective commencement of each part (inserting new Clause 3A, 27A and 37A into the Bill).

    These new clauses would effectively repeal the Bill.”


    I may be wrong, but the provision re leaders of politicial parties for the time being recognised … appears to currently rule out Dunne!

    EDIT – As I was typing the above, three more SOPs popped up on the Parliament site. Two under Key’s name and one under Dunne’s name.




    Revised link for the Labour SOP if the original link above does not work.

    • Veutoviper 9.1

      Fruther Edit – forget those later links. The Key and Dunne SOPs have not yet been put up properly.

    • Veutoviper 9.2

      The two Key SOPs are now up – one covers substantive amendments and the other proposes breaking the Bill into three separate Bills.


      The Dunne SOP should pop up in this link when it is included.

    • Veutoviper 9.3

      The Dunne SOP is now in the link to my 9.2. Semms on a quick read to cover what he agreed with Key to obtain Dunne’s support.

      To summarise the Labour SOP

      – Amendment Bill provisions to expire after one year ( ie the GCSB Act would revert to the current Act unless amended in the interim).

      – a extensive review to be set up within one month of the Amendment Bill coming into force, comprising a panel of 3 – 5 persons agreed by the GCSB Minister and the leaders of all politicial parties

      – review to report back within six months.

      Since I am swamping OM with Parliamentary links, here is today’s Questions.


      Today’s Questions include 20 Questions to Members as well as the usual 12 to Ministers.

      Let the fillabusting begin!

      PS – RNZ National Midday news reported that Key will not be in the House for the Committee stages of the GCSB Bill. Coward.

  10. johnm 10

    More Loan Shark NeoLiberal economics:
    “Destroying Greece to Save it ”


    Greece once an optimistic reasonably happy holiday destination has been pillaged by loan shark economics back to 3rd World destitution. 🙁

    “Greece represents the worst of neoliberal harshness. Social services across the board are disintegrating. They’re in disarray. They’re disappearing in plain sight.”

    “The Government has imposed a brutal and self-defeating fiscal austerity; in a confiscatory manner, it tries to collect extra revenue from an already impoverished and afflicted populace, while it neglects its main role, as specified by the Constitution: The Protection of the Rights and the Welfare of the Citizen Body.”

  11. fender 12

    Hahaha……National Party purchase $2million Thorndon mansion to setup new HQ close to GCSB HQ !

    • Anne 12.1

      How convenient for Key. He doesn’t have to rely on emails anymore. He can get a staffer to pop along the road and get everything direct…

      Phone rings: Chief, Ian Fletcher picks it up. “Hi Fletch. It’s your mate John here. Look, I’ve had enough of that Russel Norman. Too bloody clever by half. Stick a monitor on him will you? I’ll send one of our HQ staffers to get the gen off you in a couple of weeks. Okay? Good. See you soon bye”.

    • Tautoko Viper 12.2

      Just noticed this dated 20 Feb 2013 in a search.

      “Hank Schouten at Stuff reports:

      “A Wellington home steeped in political history is being sold by the Government.

      The red-brick house at 41 Pipitea St, Thorndon, was the home of prime ministers Sir Sidney Holland, Sir Walter Nash, Sir Keith Holyoake and Sir Geoffrey Palmer, as well as a string of Cabinet ministers, including Jim Sutton and most recently Nick Smith.”


      • karol 12.2.1

        Interesting. So they couldn’t sell it last December – going for $1.6 mill.

        Background to the house.

        Winston Peters is very critical.

        But Peters, who lived in the house when he was Foreign Affairs Minister, said if it was to be sold it should have been an auction, rather than a National government selling it to the National Party.

        “At no stage were we told that the Government was going to sell this property to its political wing,” Peters said in a statement, adding that the property was of ”great historical significance” to all of New Zealand.

        “This Government will sell anything – especially if their political sponsors hold out their hands. Nothing is sacred to these people. It has an historic places designation but what is historic about this building now? It had a certain value so why didn’t the house go to auction?” Peters said.

        “This sale has a familiar feel about it – like SkyCity Casino but on a smaller scale.”

        Property records show that 41 Pipitea St, nestled in Wellington’s diplomatic quarter, was sold by the Crown on June 21 to an entity controlled by Geoffrey Thompson, a former president of the National Party.

        The same day, ownership was transferred to Pipitea St Ltd, whose shareholders include Goodfellow, National Party board member Roger Bridge, former deputy Prime Minister Sir Don McKinnon and Peter Kiely, a lawyer with links to the National Party.

        • alwyn

          Wow. Winston has just woken up.
          The place has been for sale for at least 6 months.
          They actually would appear to have got a very good price for it.

        • Chooky


          Great research Karol…..this Key government is so unlike anything NZ has seen before!

  12. srylands 13

    [recovered from trash]

    [lprent: This is one of those irritating flaws in the comments system that allows comments to be trashed, and destroying the continuity when they have been replied to. Pulled this out of the trash. BTW: If I think someone is doing this deliberately, then they will get booted permanently. ]

    • One Anonymous Knucklehead 13.1

      I’m sure Unite will receive your concerns in the spirit they are intended.

      • srylands 13.1.1

        That has not been my experience.

        • One Anonymous Knucklehead

          Well, your intent is one of barely suppressed malice if you ask me; that might explain its poor reception.

    • McFlock 13.2

      Thanks for your concern.
      I’ll file it alongside your previous statements about how it’s not the government’s role to create jobs.

      In the meantime, workers will choose which battles they will fight, if only on the grounds that advice from you does not necessarily have their interests at heart.

    • richard 13.3

      The risk is that McDonalds turns around and says fine we won’t accept future subsidies.

      You really are a very silly little boy.

      • srylands 13.3.1

        [recovered from trash]

        [lprent: This is one of those irritating flaws in the comments system that allows comments to be trashed, and destroying the continuity when they have been replied to. Pulled this out of the trash. BTW: If I think someone is doing this deliberately, then they will get booted permanently. ]

        • Colonial Viper

          So why do you support tax payer provided corporate welfare, for foreign corporates no less?

          • srylands

            The incidence of the subsidy passes to the worker. Makes no difference who owns the company. Are you saying that a subsidy for a New Zealand small business owner to employ a disadvantaged worker would be more acceptable?

            The wage subsidy is provided on condition that McDonalds employs specified workers who would othwerwise be unemployed. It mostly displaces other workers. Wage subsidy schemes generally have about an 80% displacement effect.

            • framu

              ” It mostly displaces other workers”

              are you saying this is a good thing?

              a subsidy is a subsidy – the worker doesnt get it, but McDs sure get to reduce their wage bill dont they

              also – im pretty sure this isnt available to anyone but McDs (though could be wrong there)

              • framu

                testing reply function

              • srylands

                Wage subsidies are used widely in New Zealand (and overseas) to help disadvantaged workers. It is not just available to McDonalds.


                The workers that get employed would otherwsie not have been employed becasuse there are alternative more productive workers available. McDonalds is being (temporarily) compensated for the lower productivity of the disadvantaged worker.

                • Colonial Viper

                  So you’re good with subsidising foreign corporates with NZ tax payers money then?

                  Does it occur to you that McDonalds should be paying the full wages of those workers themselves, without tax payer subsidies?

                  McDonalds is being (temporarily) compensated for the lower productivity of the disadvantaged worker.

                  bullshit. That “lower productivity” is entirely fictitious. McDonalds is an employer responsible for training and upskilling their own staff.

                  This is simply a money funnel from the tax payer to the corporate.

            • Colonial Viper

              The incidence of the subsidy passes to the worker. Makes no difference who owns the company.

              “Incidence of the subsidy”? What the fuck kind of obfuscation is that?

              All I can see is McDonalds getting cheap labour on the tax payers ticket.

              • muzza

                Why are you even engaging with whoever/whatever is behind that rather silly handle.

                I notice Gosman came back for a hit and run yesterday, having not been seen for quite some time, perhaps due to my comment referencing him turning in his grave, at the poor quality of cry-pants trooling, then gosman magically appeared!

    • Paul 13.4

      You do have a lot of spare time on your hands.

  13. Jane 14

    Shearer speaking now on Fonterra, worst speech ever!! Really really bad… Thank God the bell has just gone!,

    • Maureen 14.1

      Totally agree – what a disaster. This can’t go on – can it?

      • gobsmacked 14.1.1

        I challenge anybody who claims to support Labour, to watch that speech (it should be online shortly, in the House from about 4.15 pm).

        I challenge anybody who thinks Shearer’s problems are created by the MSM, or critical bloggers, or the “far left”, or Cunliffe, or any other excuse you want to conjure up.

        When you watch it, remember that this debate was called for by Shearer himself. He has not been caught on the hop, he has (rightly) asked to speak, to hold the government to account. And so … he speaks. Now watch.

        C’mon, there are still a few of you on here who keep saying everything will be fine for the left if we just shut up and support David Shearer. Watch that awful speech, or forever hold your peace.

        That man cannot be Prime Minister. Period.

  14. bad12 15

    Noted while at the local Pak’n’Slave today on the usual food frenzy nutrition quest, one of those little triangular flags you attach to the rear passenger window on your wheels,

    A Labour Party flag of all things, go Labour a really staunch supporter this far away from an election,

    The wheels under the Labour flag???, a near new BMW, it was ‘wine week’ so i connected the dots for a giggle…

  15. logie97 16

    Today’s Panel – Policeman Bell.
    Mora had asked an authority on Islam to explain fasting and Ramadan. This Dr. gave a very measured and clear explanation of his faith and what Ramadan means to its adherents. He happened to mention that it was a highly spiritual time and that all desires are set aside for this period, people focussing on refreshing and recreating their spiritual beings. Only a xenophobe like Bell could have asked an appallingly “smuttish” question of the guest. Clearly Mora was embarrassed.

    Given the poor level of comments that Bell contributed to the rest of the panel, the man should be retired from the show in the same way that Bradbury was dropped.

    • Paul 16.1

      What was the question?

    • North 16.3

      If I correctly identified the voice it was Bell also stating that the judiciary is responsible for the fact that Teina Pora is still inside after 21 years. That the judiciary should take some step to rectify this. I’m at a loss to understand quite what the judiciary could legally do.

      A transparent and disgusting attempt by Bell to shield an evil police culture in Pora’s case. And conceal that vitally important disclosure was withheld from the defence. And that there were senior detectives who were seriously concerned about the reality of the police case, even before the first trial.

      Afternoons with Mora is in the main but an exercise in facilitating blowhards who fancy they’re “someone” to mouth off, unchallenged, in the most ridiculously ignorant and self-indulgent style.

  16. vto 17

    Holy guacamole has John Key just been slapped hard by the Chinese over the 100% Pure thing that Key also happens to be responsible for?

    Will Key take responsibility for that?

    • Colonial Viper 17.1

      The flaming paper bag full of Chinese dog poo has been left on his veranda, so yeah, he sorta needs to even if he doesn’t want to.

  17. karol 18

    Parliament can be a frustrating place to watch. But I like that we have a House where the gallery and members from all sides join in a Waiata.

  18. BLiP 19

    When it comes to the 100% Pure slogan how can the John Key led National Ltd™ government be worried? Its not like National Ltd™ have even the slightest concern for such things, or maybe it just thought the world wouldn’t notice that since its election to power in 2008, National Ltd™ has . . .

    been caught out repeatedly lying in the run up to and during the election campaign about its real intentions in relation to the environment

    celebrated the opening of the foreign-owned Pike River Coal Ltd mine on DOC land adjacent to the Paparoa National Park from which 1 megatonne of coal will be extracted per year for the next 20 years – Pike River Coal Ltd has announced that it has found additional coal in the national park

    cancelled a proposed efficiency standard (MEPS) on incandescent lightbulbs

    reversed a moratorium on building new gas/oil/coal power stations

    removed the bio fuel subsidy

    scrapped the scheme that would have penalised imported vehicles producing high emissions

    removed regulations for water efficient new housing by Order in Council

    renewed leases on sensitive high country farms which were meant to return to DOC

    reversed restrictions on the freeholding of vast swathes of land on the edge of the Southern Lakes

    arbitrarily excised 400 hectares from the brand new Oteake Conservation Park, including the most important and, ecologically, the rarest part of the new Park, the tussock and shrubland that went right down to the banks of the Manuherikia River, to enable future access to lignite

    said nothing to say in regard to the World Commission on Protected areas of IUCN’s severe criticism of its intention to investigate mineral resources and mining opportunities in protected conservation areas including our three UNESCO World Heritage Sites of Te Wahi Pounamu-South West New Zealand, Tongariro National Park and the Sub Antarctic Islands

    approved two prospecting permit applications lodged by Australian iron-ore giant Fortescue Metals Group subsidiary FMG Pacific lodged in June – areas covered by the two-year permits include an 8204-square-kilometre area of seabed adjoining the west coast from Cape Reinga to the Manukau Harbour and a 3798-square-kilometre prospecting area of land from Cape Reinga to the Kaipara Harbour including Ninety Mile Beach, the west side of the Aupouri Peninsula, Kaitaia and the Hokianga.

    approved an additional prospecting permit for Fortescue Metals in relation to 3568sq km right next door to the Kahurangi National Park where the Heaphy Track is

    was forced to release its Ministry of Economic Development (MED) report under the Official Information Act that proclaims “significant mineral potential” in the Fiordland, Kahurangi and Paparoa national parks – the report said the Waitutu area of the Fiordland National Park had sufficient petroleum reserves to be “worthy” of inclusion in a review of conservation land protected from mining

    secretly granted the minerals industry the right to veto proposed National Park boundaries and permission for any such vetoes to be kept confidential – in spite of recommendations from its own officials against any such a veto

    called for caring New Zealanders to halt their “emotional hysteria” and recognise that conservation land should be mined for minerals and went on to say “Mining in a modern, technological way can have a negligible effect”

    rubished the Department of Conservation (“Canterbury Farming” June 2010 issue – now offline) suggesting it was incapable of looking after the high country reserves and parks under its control

    gutted the home insulation scheme

    pulled $300 million out of public transport, walking and cycling schemes and added it to a pot of $2 billion to ‘upgrade’ state highways

    changed the law to provide billions of dollar in subsidies for polluters via the ETS casino

    begun a process of gutting the Resource Management Act to make it difficult/impossible for the public to lodge appeals against developers

    removed the ability of Auckland to introduce a fuel levy to fund planned public transport upgrades

    left electrification of the Auckland rail network up in the air without promised funding commitments and then came through with a dodgy loan scheme and then unilaterally reorganised the local government structure before finally setting about the privatisation-by-stealth model when busting KiwiRail

    removed the programme to make Government Departments ‘carbon neutral’ and also began its first wave of public sector redundancies starting with the Ministry for the Environment which was responsible for the scheme

    removed funding for public tv advertising on sustainability and energy efficiency

    pulled funding for small-town public litter bin recycling schemes

    displayed cabinet ministers expressing public support the bulldozing of Fiordland

    reduced Department of Conservation funding by $54 million over three years

    cancelled funding for the internationally acclaimed ‘Enviroschools’ programme

    usurped the democratic role of local Councils of determining policies for their citizens by requiring the abandonment of the efficient and well-established tree protection rules for urban areas

    set about revamping Auckland governance in a way that is likely to greatly reduce the ‘Environmental Watchdog’ role of the the current Regional Council (since completely fucked it up with the SuperShitty)

    removed Auckland’s metropolitan limits and opened the gateway for unfettered urban sprawl

    defended internationally the importation of rain-forest-wrecking palm kernel and stood silent while Federated Farmers called Greenpeace “despicable” criminals, traitors, and robbers

    stood silent while Godfrey Bloom, a Member of the European Parliament and infamous Climate Change Denialist, publicly rejoiced in the 1985 bombing of the Greenpeace Rainbow Warrior – who was doing so while standing on a dock next to the replacement vessel

    took a 0% emissions reduction target to Copenhagen. Yes, seriously, that isn’t a misprint – that was the lower bound of their negotiation platform – then missed the 01/02/10 deadline for commitment to action it had agreed to – meanwhile 55 of the 80 countries which attended did make the deadline

    secretly cancelled the internationally recognised scheme for the mandatory labelling of exotic woods to ensure the timber has not been taken from rain forests in direct contradiction of its own statements made at the 13th World Forestry Congress in Argentina

    supported the Department of Conservation’s decision to open up the pristine Cathedral Cove to an ice-cream franchise

    gave the Department of Conservsation $1.7 million to further develop commercial activities on DOC land and started an “off set” plan allowing company’s to damage the conservation estate if they agree to improve land elsewhere – no monitoring regime has been suggested on put in place

    left DOC director-general Al Morrison to announce that DOC is to charge for services that had been free and, to soften the public up to the idea that there will be more “energy generation schemes” operating on DOC land

    took no action to reduce existing pollution pouring into the Manawatu River and is “leaving it up to industry” to come up with solutions to heal the river which was described by the Cawthorn Institute as “one of the worst polluted in the Western world”

    announced a $1.69 million industry subsidy to kick start marine farming without identifying no-go areas nor putting in place a consultation process for individiuals, communities, and other general coastal users

    been forced to release documents under the Official Information Act which confirm that DOC has “giving up” on ecologically valuable high-country land in the Mackenzie Basin because of funding cuts. The released documents cite “statements made by ministers”, “diminishing funding” and the Government’s new high-country policies as reasons for the changed stance – the comments from DOC were made after Land Information New Zealand (Linz), which manages the tenure review process, ignored DOC’s previous conservation recommendations for the farms

    used former National Party minister and current director of Open Country Cheese – a company convicted of filthy farming practices and found by the supreme court to be a dodgy employer – Wyatt Creech to head up an enquiry into Environment Canterbury which had been standing up the dairy farmers’ demands for more and more water resources and less and less regulation. The Creech report recommended the Environmental Canterbury be sacked and replaced with government appointments and the voters of Canterbury do without democracy until the water situation had been resolved. The Canterbury area holds 50 percent of New Zealand’s fresh water reserves and 50 percent of the water required for hyrdo energy. The Creech report said Environmental Centerbury put too much focus on the environment

    been subjected to international condemnation for knowing next to nothing about the parlous state of the New Zealand fisheries

    bucked international trends and poured more acid on the 100% Pure brand and increases the bluefin tuna quota

    squirmed when New Zealand is subject to international criticism for its backing of commericial whaling which National Ltd supports

    funded Government-owned company Solid Energy runs an essay competition entitled “ The role of coal in sustainable energy solutions for New Zealand” for school children. First prize is a trip to New Zealand’s largest coal customer, China.

    supported access fees for entrance onto DOC walkways – fee introduced following cuts to DOC’s budget.

    pressed on with PR bullshit about how New Zealand’s environment would profit from mining national parks, Conservation Minister Kate Wilkinson says.

    Department of Conservation director-general Al Morrison said the conservation estate created “opportunities to do a whole lot for a lot of different people . . . we’ve got to get away from this idea that somehow we have to protect one-third of New Zealand for a certain constituency and put it in a jar of formaldehyde and leave it

    created random fantasies of abundant wealth to promote all forms of mining

    ignored reports on sustained non-compliance with resource consents and worsening pollution of water ways.

    ignored its own Ministers possible conflicts of interest

    done nothing as both its own SOE Meridian and the Department of Conservation to withdraw appeals against an 85m high damn with a 14km long reservoir on conservation land.

    granted Energy Resources permission to ship Australian yellowcake uranium ore through New Zealand.

    apologised but does nothing else for breaching the Treaty of Waitangi by granting a mining exploration permit to Brazilian company Petrobras

    continued to remove environmental protection powers from local authorities

    totally reversed gains made in the protection of National Parks and other high-value conservation areas in the South Island.

    commenced a divide-and-rule strategy by attempting to paint New Zealanders interested in protecting the environment as outside of the “mainstream” and in defence of the fact that the media is catching to its bare-faced lies in the lead up to the 2008 election

    carried on with more lies by talking about modern mining like that at Reefton being carried out by Oceana Golds as being like “key hole surgery”

    appeared to believe that the tourists it is attempting to bring to New Zealand are all blind and won’t see for themselves the impact of the dairy farming it is subsidising to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars

    appeared itself to be blind when it comes to the Chairman of Fonterra

    forced the Commissioner for the Environment to delay the release of a report into the ramifications for climate change in regard to lignite mining and proposals to convert the lignite into diesel

    employed financial sleight of hand in shuffling funds towards business interests and away from community groups looking to protect the environment

    made more empty promises when a report showing that a third of New Zealand lankes have poor quality water is released

    backed down on promises to protect New Zealand children (and the environment cleaner by more informed disposal) from harmful chemicals by improving labeling and imposing mandatory standards on containers

    Ignored the findings by attacking the messenger when a World Health Organisation report confirms that New Zealand’s main centres have the worst air in Australasia and Auckland is the most polluted with twice the concentration of damaging airborne particles as Sydney.

    studiously ignored so as to take piss about dire warnings concerning the quality of drinking water in Reidstone

    failed to mention in its 100% Pure promotions that visitors to the Kerikeri Basin near the Stone Store – one of Northland’s iconic tourism and heritage sites – could come face-to-face with warning signs telling them the water is polluted

    failed to mention in its 100% Pure promotions that tourists in the Coromandel could come face to face with New Zealand’s environmental standards when finding hundreds of dead snapper washed up on Beaches

    presented bogus evidence concerning air pollution

    made more empty promises in relation to air pollution while also extending deadlines for local councils to reduce air pollution

    extended deadlines for businesses previously require to reduce air pollution by 2013

    put tourism operators in Akaroa at risk by refusing to make the harbour a marine reserve . . . and then rubs salt into their wounds

    done nothing after the United Nations finds that National Ltd™’s targets for reducing pollution are not consistent with the measures put in place to achieve those targets

    attempted to defend the Emissions Trading Scheme from comparisons with the Australian model while Environment Minister Nick Smith indicates there’s little chance of the two schemes being integrated any time soon

    then further slowed down the implentation of New Zealand’s Emissions Trading Scheme

    allowed major retailers to reap the benefits of its earlier and secret decision to abandon the mandatory labelling of exotic woods after it is found that the retailers are contributing to the death of native Australian forests despite an independent, year-long investigation which finds otherwise

    tried to keep a meeting between John Key and mininng company Anadarko’s boss secret. The company is responsble for a massive oil spill and is looking to to start drilling off New Zealand soon

    continued to ignore yet more evidence of farmers failing to comply with environmental regulations

    handed over $400 million to farmers to extend water storage and allow for more land to be used for dairy farms. No mention or provision is made for additional protections required to deal with the increased pollution

    failed to point out in its 100% Pure promotion that tourists (and locals) should avoid the Opihi River along State Highway 1 because of the risk of exposure to toxins from phormidium

    failed to point out in its 100% Pure promotions that tourists arriving at New Zealand’s “nuclear free” sea ports will be sharing the environment with up to 5,000 tonnes of radioactive yellow cake uranium

    lied about how bad the RMA is

    ignored top scientists and academics who point out that its underfunding of the Department of Conservation will send more species into extinction and hurt its 100% Pure image.

    Ignored John Key making an international arse out of himself in regard to New Zealand’s 100% Pure image

    carried on with its lies as New Zealand is identified as jeoparising its good name by allowing us to become one of a small number of states stalling progress in forming an international climate agreement
    kept stringing us along even after Next thing, New Zealand received the 2nd place Fossil Award for “proposing the most Flexible Mechanism imaginable with no oversight or review. Bring on the wild west. They want to be able to use any market mechanisms they wish with absolutely no oversight or international review! There would be no way to ensure that the units from one mechanism have not been sold two or three times to another such mechanism. This would likely unleash a wild west carbon market with double or triple counting of offsets and a likely increase of greenhouse gas emissions into the atmosphere.”

    stood silent when Fonterra was caught out lying by overstating its farmer’s compliance on excluding stock from waterways by 100%

    put World class surfing waves and Maui’s dolphin’s at Raglan at severe risk by encouraging a proposed iron ore seabed mining in New Zealand’s coastal waters

    never followed up after the scientific models created by New Zealand and the Commission for the Conservation of Antarctic Marine Living Resources (CCAMLR) to allow fishing are called into question

    set the scene for our children heading down to the park to find an overseas’ owned company had set up a dairy farm in one corner. Over time the shit builds up

    ignored data which shows the expansion of fish-farming in the Marlborough Sounds could cause unacceptable changes in the coastal environment

    strategically removed the word “environment” from the lexicon of local and central government

    failed to tell the tourists it hopes to attact with its 100% Pure campaign that every year, New Zealand drops huge quantities of poison-laced food into its forest ecosystems; enough poison to kill its human population 4 times over, every year. No country has ever done anything remotely similar, on such a scale

    failed to tell the tourists it hopes to attract with its 100% Pure campaign that more than a third of Auckland’s beaches fail water quality checks and are closed for swimming

    ignored the closing of the beaches, this time as extremely high concentrations of the bacteria enterococci are identified
    ignored Ministerial conflicts of interest, this time involving John Key who is identified as shareholder in the Bank Of America which is backing mining in New Zealand and Australia . . . even when more information is made available . . . and more information . . . and more information

    pressed on with additional policies that move away from the protection of the environment towards exploitation

    limited , as part of its effort to cash-in on the environment, access to some of New Zealand’s most endangered species and isolated islands only to those who those who contribute financially displacing conservation staff and scientists

    ignored a World Wildlife Fund report, Beyond Rio, which makes clear New Zealand now risks some of the highest rates of biodiversity loss on Earth unless urgent action is taken

    continued to give confidence to Fonterra director Colin Armer being convicted and fined $72,000 for “fouling” a Bay of Plenty waterway after a judge found he could have prevented the pollution were it not for his “systemic” failure to monitor what was happening on his company’s farm

    lied when it said New Zealand has the environmental laws and regulations to control oil and gas development on the continental shelf because there is no equivalent of the Resource Management Act to control oil and gas activity outside of the territorial sea (12 nautical miles offshore).
    lied when it had already agreed coastal plans to allow marine farming consent holders in the Waikato and Marlborough to move from mussel farming to finfish farming without considering the additional environmental effects imposed

    placed short-term business interests ahead of long-term consequences to New Zealand’s environment, particularly biodiversity by allowing damage in one area on the condition that it be “off set” in another creating a dangerous precedent in that such a provisin means that one part of biodiversity can be wrecked in return for “protecting” an area that was never under threat anyway.

    promoted proposals that include include a plant producing about 2 billion litres of diesel per year, using at least 12 million tonnes of lignite per year and another producing 3 billion litres using 12-17 million tonnes of lignite annually. A further project would produce by 2016 1.2 tonnes of the nitrogenous fertiliser, urea, using 2 million tonnes of lignite annually

    tried to hide the fact that its Department of Conservation was ordered to permit Meridian to to build a damn on the Mohikinui River despite its position that “the public conservation land within the Mokihinui River has such high value that it is most unlikely to be suitable for exchange at all

    continued to ignore the slow-motion extinction of Maui’s dolphins:

    gone into hiding after it was discovered that significant cuts to the Ministry for the Environment in the 2012 Budget are not publicly detailed or announced

    continued to ignore its international obligations under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea to “protect and preserve” the martime environment

    refused in the face of repeated calls to set national standards for water quality despite mounting evidence of the need to do so

    further weakened protection for wild rivers in Canterbury with the ECan Act and indicates that further weakening provisions will follow.

    rubber stamped a motorway project with no economic benefit and likely to waste over $1 billion of tax payers’ funds.

    been forced to admit that it has spent $1.67 million in a survey of minerals on the West Coast of New Zealand, including within the Te Wahipounamu South West New Zealand world heritage area. Te Wahipounamu is one of 183 natural heritage

    secretly ordered that world heritage sites on the West Coast be surveyed as part of a $3 million mineral study spanning more than 16,000 square kilometres. The survey was only puiblicy revealed after Green MP Catherine Delahunty asked for details in a parliamentary question

    appointed thoroughtly unsuitable but politically useful members to the Establishment Board for the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)

    facilitated by neglect the employment of inexperienced managers, making poor policy decisions resulting in additional threats to New Zealand’s biosecurity.

    under resourced New Zealand’s biosecurity system to such an extent that it is fundamentally flawed preventing any way of identifying how the Kiwifruit killer virus got into New Zealand and, thus, no way of preventing it from happening again.

    handed over a further $80 million to business and farmers to subsidise their pollution.

    ignored its own guidelines to when considering the Milford Dart tunnel and Fiordland Link Experience which would otherwise never have got off the ground.

    appointed an advisory group to recommend a significant rewrite of the Resource Management Act to remove references to the protection of coastal areas, wetlands, lakes and rivers and indigenous flora and fauna.

    splashed tax payer cash around its consultants considering conservation and environmental protection of the Mackenze Basin and Waitaki Valley

    further weakened the resource consent process for foreign-owned mining companies,

    locked New Zealanders out of the consultation process on the alloting of areas being made available for resource exploration.

    ignored the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment and scrapped government grants for solar water heating

    used the Navy along with police and Crown Law to bully environmental protesters in a legal case they knew could not be won

    put 23 massive blocks of deep and wild waters east of Wellington and Dunedin on the international market for exploratory oil drilling

    allowed its own consultants do a u-turn on the economic benefits of additional roading and then handed them a $200 million contract for further consultation work

    Supported the Department of Conservation into granting foreign-owned multinational mining company OceanaGold permission to destroy 55 hectares of beech forest so as to extend its Reefton mine to a total 81 hectares without public notification

    envouraged the Minerals Industry Association to bully local authorities to step aside from what little environmental protections they are able to impose

    reduced its environment agencies to little more than a ramshackle collection of underfunded and ineffective small back offices with no direction or policy for dealing with the vast marine resources of New Zealand

    eroded New Zealand’s bio-security to such an extent that Christchurch Airport is found to have failed at a basic level

    removed the directive terms “protect”, “preserve”, “maintain” and “enhance” from the RMA fundamentally weakening the legislation and deliberately introducing confusion as to its overall intent.

    futher ensured that New Zealand tax payers continue to subsidise 95% of big polluters’ emissions

    drastically reduced the size of proposed marine reserves off the West Coast so much so that one advocate says they are “an insult” to those who spent years trying to establish them

    instructed its delegates at the world’s largest conservation conference , the International Union for Conservation of Nature’s conference in Korea, to oppose any further measures to protect Maui and Hector dolphins in defiance of 117 other countries and 460 environmental organisations requesting New Zealand ban gill and trawl nets in waters up to 100 metres deep

    lied about the environmental impact of fraking

    refused to enforce its own legislation to protect the environment

    ignored concerns about fracking which has seen the practise banned around the world

    twisted the knife by exploiting news of redundancies at Solid Energy in a statement which claims opponents to a proposed mine are “getting in the way of” potential jobs as part of an effort to discourage legal action

    changed to law allowing a consideration of the effects on climate change to allow Australian-owned mining company Bathurst Resources (also known as Buller Coal) to build a 200-hectare open-cast coal mine on the plateau and excavate 80 million tonnes of coal that, when burnt, will release about 200 million tonnes of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere

    further ensured the extinction of New Zealand sea lions by failing to extend necessary fishing restrictions

    failed to protect the New Zealand marine environment and ignored international obligation with its Exclusive Economic Zone and Continental Shelf Act oil drilling legislation

    continued to obfuscate and dither while More than half of monitored recreational sites on our rivers are declared unsafe for swimming

    ignored its own scientific evidence and advice from its own authorities to lock-in tax payer funding of business which pollutes New Zealand’s air

    refused to enforce its own laws in respect to water pollution

    changed the law to make it more difficult to build a deck on a house than it is to drill for oil

    avoided its international obligations “to ensure the conservation and management of sharks and their long-term sustainable use” while its fishers carry on with the barbaric practise of shark finning.

    ignored public support for conservation by ordering another round of cuts to the Department of Conservation.

    stood alone at the world’s largest conservation summit and voted against more protection for species at risk

    further gutted environmental protection legislation to speed up the building consent process for developers

    vancelled without notice the five-yearly State of the Environment report put together by the Ministry of the Environment, the report is the largest stock-take of trends relating to land, water, air, plants and animals

    abandoned the Kyoto agreement completely

    allowed its on lobbyist to publicly attack a prominent New Zealand scientist for speaking truth about New Zealand’s environment in an effort to silence the accurate reporting of scientific evidence

    attracted international mockery for the fact that the pristine landscape featured in The Hobbit and used as the basis for the 100% Pure New Zealand campaign as fantastical as dragons and wizards

    remained “relaxed” about the fact that New Zealand is now the 18th worst out of 189 nations when it came to preserving its natural environment

    pulled out of Kyoto just weeks after the OECD reports that global greenhouse gas emissions could rise 50 per cent by 2050 without more ambitious climate policies, as fossil fuels continue to dominate the energy mix

    laughed when New Zealand received two “Fossil of the Day” – first-equal and second place – awards on the first day of international climate talks in Doha, Qatar

    used Hobbiton – Waikato – as the centrepiece of its 100% Pure campaign when the area is the country’s major source of pollution to the Hauraki Gulf

    handed over responsibility for the monitoring and reporting of fraking activity , for which it has inadequate legal protections, to the foreign-owned multi-nationals which are carrying out that activity thus totally ignoring its own Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment

    lied, obfuscated and used government resources to attack and undermined local authority plans to improve water quality
    sanctioned an unnamed foreign-owned multinational to go ahead with a major road through pristine South Island National Parks

    employed disingenuous gobbledeegook to defend its decision to withdraw from the Kyoto Agreement.

    turned a deaf ear to calls for New Zealand to assist pacfic island nations by taking a stronger position on climate change

    displayed contempt for existing agreements and Environment Case law by approving new salmon farms in recreational areas within the Marlborough Sounds

    refused to investigate the impact on increasing use of neonicotinoid pesticides which is likely to be a major contributor to the sudden and dramatic decline (aka colony collapse disorder) of the New Zealand honey bee population, National Ltd™ also refused to consider the development of a strategy to protect what is left of the honey bee population.

    lied about its commitment to addressing climate change

    failed to monitor Sanford Ltd’s pollution resulting in an international embarrassment

    allowed foreign-owned multinationals to proceed with oil exploration without the financial resources available to mitigate any environmental damage should it occur

    been caught out ignoring its own advice on implementing environmental monitoring procedures

    used changes to the Resource Management Act to remove local authorty’s rights and planning for the protection of trees

    commenced removing local authority’s rights to plan for housing

    allowed more than 53 percent of Canterbury’s major water users to avoid having meters installed

    mixed the cooperative model of climate change negotiations with the competitive model used in trade negotiations, thus putting outcomes in both areas a risk

    ducked questions asking for evidence as to the safety of genetically engineered food

    ignored the fact that New Zealand carbon credits are no longer the unit of choice in the New Zealand’s own carbon market. Figures from the official Emission Unit Registry show that emitters who initially supported NZUs are now using a range of international units to meet their carbon obligations under the Emissions Trading Scheme

    used highly dodgy figures in calculating the reduction New Zealand’s net carbon emissions by including trees due to be harvested in the next few years

    ignored news that New Zealand’s first glyphosate resistant weed has been found and the resulting call for the use of glyphosate (Monsanto’s “Roundup”) to cease

    stayed silent for five months after being advised that Fonterra’s milk product were contaminated with dicyandiamide (DCD) and now face an international backlash.

    set no maximum level of contamination of dicyandiamide (DCD) (AKA cyanoguanidine) in milk products for consumption by New Zealanders, stood silent while the farming industry says the withdrawal of dicyandiamide (DCD) will result in yet more pollution of New Zealand’s waterways

    stood silent as NIWA announced findings of research which showed 20 per cent of marine life in the Milford Sounds port area could be killed off as a result of copper leaching from anti-fouling paints on boat hulls

    secretly without consultation and any right of appeal used a short-term draconian law to ammend a water conservation order for the Rakaia River

    been locked out of the international carbon market because of its trucculent attitude

    continued in its efforts to eliminate tree protection of any kind in Auckland and elsewhere

    stood alone as the only developed country not to have tabled an unconditional single number target as part of the international climate change negotiations

    cut funding into research about protecting the last remaining giant kauri

    continued to endanger the 100% Pure brand

    been unable to explain how genetically engineered mould escaped from Massey University laboratories and remains unable or unwilling to provide further information

    introduced foreign species without a consideration of the risk to human health

    allowed oil companies to ignore breaches of resource consent and set neihhbours against neighbours

    obfuscated on the negative economic benefits of major raod works

    obfuscated on the level of cuts to the Department of Conservation

    disengaged the previously widely held concept of environmental protection from any consideration of economic development

    sacked 140 staff at the Department of Conservation

    inserted last minute changes to environmental legislation that were not announced and, thus, not considered during public submissions and earlier readings of Bills.

    lied about the practise of fracking going on in New Zealand for the past 30 years

    funded its Economic Development Ministry’s membership of the Coal Association lobby group

    staged a consultation process on the restructuring for the Department of Conservation and then completely ignored any submissions generated

    proposed handing over recreational paua gathering areas to commercial operators

    opened a further 190,000 square kilometers of New Zealand’s coastal waters for oil exploration

    allowed the Minister of Energy’s own political adviser to make public calls for the boycotting of the environmental iniative Earth House

    held secret meetings with oil company executives known international as irresponsible and mendacious

    exposed Auckland beaches to the unmonitored risk of oil exploration by companies unable to afford any clean up operations if required

    breached international law and used parliamentary urgency and ignored international guidelines to rush through legislation depriving New Zealanders of the right to protest against drilling for oil within 350 miles if New Zealand coast

    given permission for oil drilling to take place over earthquake ridden continental plate fault lines just off shore from Wellington

    stood idle while water quality used by households continyes to worsen

    ensured that the MacKenzie Basin is turned from a conservation estate into a development area

    used parliamentary urgency to avoid public notification, consultation and/or consideration of a law allowing companies with no experience nor financial resources to drill for oil on earthquake-ridden fault lines lying in New Zealand coastal waters

    here would be significant and irreversible adverse effects on the conservation values and overall ecological integrity of the application area and the Denniston Plateau should the proposed activity be approved”?

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0903/S00452.htm <— back up on Chris Bishop

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10869801 <— irony much

    It is disgusting that if you are a sportsperson you get no conviction for an offence that endangered peoples lives because it might affect their ability to play overseas, but an actress convicted for taking part in an environmental protest gets no such consideration.













    . . . but wait, there's more!!

    • Saarbo 19.1

      Wow, brilliant research!

      • Morrissey 19.1.1

        Brilliant indeed. Just one thing, BLiP: could you number each of these points in future? It makes it much easier for the archivally minded amongst us.

    • vto 19.2

      Hey BLiP, maybe the Chinese saw your list and figured it would be a piece of piss to lampoon Key and his guardianship of…

      … our environment
      … our tourism industry
      … and our clean green ‘brand’


      failure on a grand scale


      I wonder if Key has realised that money-trading really is an ability with few other applications

    • muzza 19.3

      BLiP that is quite something you have produced there, again.

      Very well done, and graphic as!

    • srylands 19.4

      Thanks for that – I think it is excellent research too. It is a valuable checklist of a number of policies. I had forgotten some of the earlier ones.

    • Chooky 19.5

      + 1 BLip

      ….fancy Keys Govt being ticked off by the Chinese Government for not being Green enough …environmentally conscious enough! …or state responsible enough!….irony upon irony ….but the Truth!

    • Jackal 19.6

      Great comment Blip. I particularly liked this bit:

      placed short-term business interests ahead of long-term consequences to New Zealand’s environment, particularly biodiversity by allowing damage in one area on the condition that it be “off set” in another creating a dangerous precedent in that such a provision means that one part of biodiversity can be wrecked in return for “protecting” an area that was never under threat anyway.

      +1 You should really put some of your work up on a blog of its own.

    • KJT 19.7

      I think you should put this up as a post.

  19. lurgee 20

    So, anyway, the TVNZ poll. The one showing the last Roy Morgan was probably a blip, and suggesting Labour-Green-Mana are within a sniff of victory. Jolly good, eh?



    • Paul 20.1

      And if Key continues to treat the country with contempt and Shearer continues to make speeches like today, expect the Greens to reach 20% before too long.

    • lprent 20.2

      Personally I tend to ignore the bi-monthly TV/newspaper polls as being too infrequent to show any relevant trends, and the differences in technique between the polling companies making them useless to compare between. You really have to treat them as being useless singletons. Please explain why you think that I should be interested in a crappy singleton poll?

      The bi-weekly Morgan poll has been showing a consistent and discouraging trend for the left over the last 3 or 4 polls. It still has a lot of sampling jitter and is probably off in absolute numbers. But it is a damn sight more useful than any singleton poll…

      When I see a *trend* across 3 polls in the Morgan poll the other way, then I might get excited.

  20. RedBaronCv 21

    Did we have to agree to let 17000 workers into the country for the ChCh rebuild before the meat ban was lifted?

  21. lurgee 22

    I’m not very comfortable with the assumption that a Labour Green alliance will be the way to victory, to be honest. I think the Greens would look on it as very risky – how many minor coalition partners have come out of government enhanced? Thye might risk a backlash for putting a very distant second place, third rate bunch into power – you can argue all you like about the mathematics of it and how Silver and Brze beats gold, but when the silver medal is so very small, it’s a hard sell. They’d also cop ire every time Labour did something that pissed the electorate off, much as the Lib dems have found in Britain – they not only get damed for being part of an unpopulare government, but doubly damned for being the faction that enable the clowns to get into power … I really think there is a risk the Greens will choose to stay out of any coalition with labour unless Labour can claim a respectable percentage of the vote. Problem is, cannibalising the Green vote is not going to help, as it won’t change the left-right balance fundamentally. They need to win over some of the whiney middle classes who have been voting National. Some here may not like it.

  22. Paul 23

    83 000 reasons not to go to McDonalds

    “McDonald’s ties nine out of 10 workers to zero-hours contracts
    Britain’s biggest food chain has 83,000 staff on controversial contract as employers body claims economy needs flexibility'”

    • Colonial Viper 23.1

      yeah saw that its really shit

      funny thing is that the population is so impoverished in the USA they can’t afford McDonalds any more and their sales are failing. OK maybe not that funny. Same thing happening with Walmart ffs

      • Paul 23.1.1

        And we pay them to pay their workers! Thanks for the slave rates..here have some money so you make your profits even bigger!


        “Union decries WINZ wage subsidy to McDonald’s

        Unite Union is questioning the $270,000 paid by WINZ as a wage subsidy to McDonald’s between July 2009 and June 2013.

        “This subsidy is only for the stores directly owned by the US fast food giant. 80% of stores in New Zealand are franchisee owned so the probable subsidy could be in the millions” said Unite National Director Mike Treen.”

        • srylands

          The subsidy is for the benefit for the unemployed worker who gets a job. Companies generally need to be persuaded to take on these workers because they are difficult even with a subsidy. McDonalds – and the dozens of other companies getting these subsidies – are getting no favours.

          Anyway these subsidies are not new – they have been around in different forms for 25 years. They are limited and only available for employing employees that could not get a job otherwise – i.e they would be on a benefit.

          The CTU supports the limited use of such subsidies as part of WINZ’s active labour market programmes.

          “An element of job subsidies or other employer incentives may be appropriate in some cases.”


          • vto

            You are still looking in the wrong place you idiot

            • srylands

              OK here then. Or does this not match your view of the world either? Yes I know you want a living wage for McDonalds workers.

              Correct me if I am wrong but as far as I know the CTU and Labour support these subsidies. They featured in various forms under the last Labour Government.

              “Receiving a wage subsidy improves labour market outcomes for recipients, with
              impacts still evident after 72 months. Improvements are evident as greater
              employment and income, and lower benefit dependence.”

              Subsidised firms continue to have higher employment levels than
              matched comparison firms for at least 36 months after a subsidy hire,
              though the size of the difference declines over time. The retention of
              subsidised workers after the end of their subsidy contributes significantly
              to the employment effect.”


              Look I don’t care – if you want to convince Labour to abolish ALMPs then fine. All you are doing is dissing the most disadvantaged. I don’t like subsidies but the counter factual is probably a life on welfare.

              • Colonial Viper

                Don’t know about you, but I don’t believe in tax payers subsidising hundred billion dollar corporations.

                If Labour or whoever else supports subsidising these multinational mega-corporates, well they can go get fucked too.

                I don’t like subsidies but the counter factual is probably a life on welfare.

                Sure, especially if they put unimaginative corporate welfarists like you in charge of policy.

          • Colonial Viper

            The subsidy is for the benefit for the unemployed worker who gets a job.

            BULLSHIT the subsidy is there to offset the payroll costs of the McDonalds corporation.

            • srylands

              That is not what the research I quote shows. The subsidised workers have lower marginal productivity than non-subsidised workers. Remember – productivity is king.

              • Colonial Viper

                Productivity is not king, corporate profits are king – that’s why McDonalds likes corporate welfare.

                • srylands

                  umm you do know a bunch of folk from WINZ probably have to beg McDonalds to take these subsidised workers?

                • srylands

                  umm no for New Zealand it is productivity. That is now well established – I can repost all the links to the Treasury research if you missed it.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Hey I don’t give a fuck about what Treasury thinks on the NZ economy, they haven’t got it right so far in 30 years, they failed to spot the GFC until it happened, so why keep expecting them to get it right now?

                    • srylands

                      “hey haven’t got it right so far in 30 years”

                      Because they perform at the top end of forecasting performance. Tell me a forecaster in New Zealand that over time does a better job?

                      Not sure if you have seen this comparative analysis?


                    • Arfamo

                      Figure 2 on page 6 looks the most interesting. What conclusions do you draw from that?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Tell you what, let’s start by cutting Treasury’s budget in half, then ditching everyone in there who believes that unemployment is useful in fighting inflation, then dump those who don’t acknowledge the Crown’s sovereign right to issue currency, and finally, transfer anyone left who believes in IS-LM forecast modelling to work a Landcorp farm on the West Coast. That might finally give them some clues about how the real economy works.

                      Tell me a forecaster in New Zealand that over time does a better job?

                      Fire them all mate, I really wonder why you so need to kowtow at the feet of the ‘most accurate’ astrologer that you can find.

            • srylands

              Excellent – please lobby for the abolition of these subsidies. I can guarantee that you will see zero objections from McDonalds or any other large employer.

              • Colonial Viper

                Yep OK, no more corporate welfare for mega-multinationals.

                Glad you agree.

                • srylands

                  OK and no more welfare for the LT unemployed

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Agreed. Government to be the employer of last resort. No more long term unemployment welfare required.

                    • srylands

                      And what would these unemployable people do for the Government? Wouldn’t it create some incentive problems? You would get folk that could be employed going along to interviews with an attitude, and messing up jobs with a bad attitude, not getting with the program… knowing they can get a living wage with the Government?

                      Isn’t that kind of what we had pre 1984? I wasn’t in the country then but I read about it. NZ Railways employing 30,000 people to do work that could be done by 5,000… and so productivity started its road south relative to the OECD average…Which in turn made us poorer, hence the left is now reduced to fighting for a redistribution of a disappointing GDP.

                      Remember it is not the changes that have made NZ poor. It is that the changes were unfinished. Hence back to that productivity research. It will be on R Norman’s desk the first day he is Finance Minister 🙂 I reckon he will get with the programme.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      And what would these unemployable people do for the Government?

                      well, they aren’t unemployable. A hundred billion dollar company thinks it’s fine to employ these people so they can’t be all bad.

                      NZ Railways employing 30,000 people to do work that could be done by 5,000… and so productivity started its road south relative to the OECD average…

                      Of course, you are sorely mistaken as in the 1970’s and early 1980’s our GDP per capita was very close to Singapore and Australia. The neoliberal reforms of the Lange government were what fucked things. (Why are you still pushing for outdated neoliberal reforms, by the way?)

                      Which in turn made us poorer, hence the left is now reduced to fighting for a redistribution of a disappointing GDP.

                      There’s $40K of GDP for every man woman and child. Plenty to go around – once we stop subsidising your mega-corporate mates.

                      Remember it is not the changes that have made NZ poor. It is that the changes were unfinished.

                      You’re a bit of a delusional dickhead. Go home and poison your own well, we’re better off without you.

                    • McFlock

                      fuck, spylands – since when did “LT unemployed” equal “unemployable“?

                      By that logic, “LT unbuilt” equals “unbuildable”, “LT unpainted” equals “unpaintable”, and “LT unachieved” equals “unachievable”.
                      And if you were crrect and “LT unempoyed” did equal “unemployable”, then wouldn’t removing their benefits be removing their only source of existence? Or do you find that treating people like shit boosts their “productivity”? Because most people find the opposite is true.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Although shitlands isn’t entirely incorrect…the LT unemployed end up structurally unemployed, and over time as their human capital declines, they often end up permanently unemployable.

                    • McFlock

                      harder to employ/train/coach, maybe. Or just more complex

                      I was once taught some industry law by a guy who, as an adult twelve years before, was a completely illiterate gang member. He was a lawyer when I knew him, and after that became quite successful. I had profound respect for him even before I heard his backstory, and he’s living proof that there is no such thing as “irredeemable”, in employment or anything else.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Being in a gang is definitely not the same as being unemployed 😈

                    • McFlock

                      point flew over the cuckoo’s nest [again]. I’m off to bed.

                    • KJT

                      Subsidised employment. Aka. Free staff for McDonalds.

                      How it really works.

                      In our local McDonalds.

                      Full time staff have their hours cut to allow for the free staff.

                      Full timers quit because they cannot live on the reduced hours. They get a 13 week stand down because they left their job.

                      Several people, off the dole, get part time hours, about equal to the wage subsidy. But just enough so WINZ can take them off their books.When their subsidy ends McD’s cuts their hours again, or finds some other way of making them leave. Then employs more on the subsidy.

                      The result. Very unhappy and depressed youngsters who thought they had a job, but find it is only short term and part time. Only 12 hours a week are guaranteed (And WINZ considers this full time employment for their statistics)..

                      Win Win though:
                      WINZ and Government unemployment figures are down.
                      McDonalds gets free labour.

                      All good, except for the toll in discouraged, depressed, ill and switched off youngsters, after a year or two of this type of revolving door uncertainty. At the beginning of their working life.

  23. Chooky 24

    @ lurgee

    Disagree with your analysis

    Labour needs to win back the approx 800,000 voters, who traditionally vote Labour, and who chose not to vote last time for Goff as leader……..the left leaning middle class will vote for Labour anyway, more if Labour goes after their traditional voters

    There is no way as it stands Labour will cannibalise the Greens

    A Labour/ Green alliance is the only way to go….and if Cunliffe leads the Labour Party as the rank and file Labour members want ….then it could be a very good victory indeed.

  24. lurgee 25

    I can see why a Labour Green alliance would benefit Labour. I’m less sure about the benefits for the Greens. And the 800,000 voters who didn’t bother in 2011 probably aren’t the Labour party rank and file, and don’t give a damn about the Shearer-Cunliffe psychodrama.

    The persistant delusion of the left is that a large swathe of the population secretly agree with them while voting against them, perhaps as a cunning ploy to force the party to be even more leftwing … If only the Labour Party would promise to nationalise everything, hundreds of thousands of people who voted National would come flocking to the left, giggling, “What took you so long?!” I don’t think that has much bearing on relaity.

    Don’t get me wrong – I would be absolutely delighted if Labour promised to nationalise everything, and made Ode To A Tractor the national anthm … But I have slowly come to realise that I am not representative of the mainstream of New Zealand, or my native Britain. So I don’t expect anything more than a disappointing compromise and lack of vigour from the parliamentary organ of the left – because to be effective in parliament, they need to appeal to a few more people than me and the other sad wights who haunt The Standard.

    • Colonial Viper 25.1

      Labour is not a “parliamentary organ of the left”: it is an economically centrist capitalist party focussed on balancing the interests of the middle class and the investor class/corporates, while ensuring that the working class are not entirely ignored.

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