Open Mike 07/02/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, February 7th, 2018 - 259 comments
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259 comments on “Open Mike 07/02/2018 ”

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  1. Ed 1
    7 February 2018 at 6:25 am

    Rachel Stewart.
    Rodeo is toast.

    “So, we all know in our hearts that rodeo is wrong. But with Michael Laws speaking up for it, we now know it’s got to be even wrong-er than we originally thought…….”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11988993

  2. eco maori 2
    7 February 2018 at 7:02 am

    Good morning Breakfast people some times I THINK that the stock market fall is engineered by the big players on the stock markert . Im always on the net and the amount of bad publicity on the stock market + the interest rate rise in the USA and wallar the big boy like Buffet could clean up 7% I could get someone to code a algorithm to examine theory Eco is assessing . I had thought of that before I changed my funds and while I wrote about that Phenomenon . But I m poor so can not afforded to take a risk . Please can all the people I Tautoko return the favour and make a small donation to help me fight for the rights of a Healthy Humane future FOR all my Whano
    and my mokos If the sandflys are aloud to ride all over my reputation this action will put fat on the rungs of all my mokos ladders of life that is the big picture .
    P.S some people are saying there is know ECO MAORI effect come on people you know I can easily test this theory of mine on a lot of subjects and I will time It right to have the maximum EFFECT I will not let that have a negative effect on the common people.
    Here is my give a little page please help me .Ka kite ano Im off to work

    https://givealittle.co.nz/cause/helping-eco-maori-sue-the-nz-police

    Ka pai

    • James 2.1
      7 February 2018 at 8:57 am

      I’m sure a ton of commenters from the standard will support your claim against the police.

      Good luck with that.

      • Puckish Rogue 2.1.1
        7 February 2018 at 10:07 am

        C’mon James thats not necessary

        • Johan 2.1.1.1
          7 February 2018 at 10:31 am

          James changing his RWNJ attitude? Good luck with that.

          • Puckish Rogue 2.1.1.1.1
            7 February 2018 at 10:56 am

            Nothing wrong with being on the right but I don’t think its a good idea to tease eco maori

            • james 2.1.1.1.1.1
              7 February 2018 at 11:02 am

              Im not. Its more a point that I doubt many people on here will put their hands in their pockets to help someone.

              If some do just to prove me wrong – it wont be a bad thing.

              • Puckish Rogue …
                7 February 2018 at 11:36 am

                Yeah but probably better to leave eco maori to do his thing rather than, unintentionally, rark him up

            • weka 2.1.1.1.1.2
              7 February 2018 at 11:20 am

              Being on the right and being a RWNJ aren’t necessarily the same thing 🙂

              • Puckish Rogue …
                7 February 2018 at 12:09 pm

                I’ve always considered myself more of a centrist 🙂

                • weka …
                  7 February 2018 at 12:15 pm

                  Lol, you keep telling yourself that PR. I’m happy for you to be a centrist once we’ve dragged the Overton Window back to where it should be.

                  • Puckish Rogue …
                    7 February 2018 at 12:27 pm

                    On certain issues i’m quite to the left, its just those issues don’t get raised much 🙂

                    • weka …
                      7 February 2018 at 12:32 pm

                      Go on then, what are they?

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      7 February 2018 at 12:53 pm

                      Not sure how to express it but I’d put a stop to any and all dairy farming conversions in areas that can’t really handle it, like the MacKenzie Country for example plus all farms to fence of waterways and provide shade for animals, where feasible

                      I’d bring in a form of National service where two years service = one years tertiary training at an accredited institution and the National service can encompass working for DOC

                      I’d increase DOCs funding for pest eradication and look at reforming pest control boards

                      Make work scheme for SH1 where its made four lanes (where feasible), straightened and including making the bridges four lanes as well and all single lane state highway bridges to be widened

                      For starters 🙂

                    • Ad []
                      7 February 2018 at 5:30 pm

                      Great suggestions.
                      Curb dairy conversions. Progressive.

                      Public interning for Doc. Progressive.

                      More funding to eradicate pests. Progressive.

                      Safety works on SH1. that’s Genters portfolio, so clearly progressive.

                      Pay no mind to Weka. Weka doesn’t determine what is or is not progressive.

                      We all do.

                      Suggest more. Reach across the House. We need it.

                    • weka …
                      7 February 2018 at 2:16 pm

                      So no more dairy conversions at all? (everywhere is past capacity).

                      Apart from that, those aren’t really left wing positions PR. Not that I’m against them (mostly), but I’d like to see LW versions.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      7 February 2018 at 2:37 pm

                      Really, I thought most of them were pretty left wing, maybe not the national service one but opening it up to DOC, forestry service or something similar makes it a bit more left

                    • weka …
                      7 February 2018 at 2:55 pm

                      Left wing would be to create permanent jobs that DOC can rely on.

                      I don’t have a problem with bonding per se, but it needs to be tied to the thing one trained for and it needs to be good for the person receiving the training as well as the service.

                      Instead of national service, make it a carrot thing. If people want to work for DOC, make that a well funded experience that brings lots of benefits to the people involved.

                      “…for example plus all farms to fence of waterways and provide shade for animals, where feasible”

                      Fencing of waterways should be happening no matter where on the L/R spectrum. I think you are confusing neoliberalism running a plunder economy, and RW conservatism. I can’t see RW conservatism having a problem with fencing water ways. But the green left would say fencing waterways is not even the bare minimum that is needed.

                      Shade and/or shelter should be provided for animals and it can’t be then there shouldn’t be animals in that paddock. You’re suggestion leaves some room for greedy farmers to abuse animals i.e. profit is more important.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      7 February 2018 at 2:59 pm

                      So we’ve establish I’m a RW conservative and not a neo-liberal tory…its a start 🙂

                    • Ad []
                      7 February 2018 at 5:32 pm

                      Pay Weka no mind.
                      Weka defines nothing.
                      You want to keep engaging, do it.

                    • In Vino …
                      7 February 2018 at 7:14 pm

                      In Weka’s defence, progressive is not necessarily left. Don’t fudge.

  3. eco maori 3
    7 February 2018 at 7:12 am

    I see that you are going to have a Career change Matty Mclean your presents will be missed when this eventuates All the best to you on your new journey up your ladder of life Kia kaha Matty .Ka kite ano

  4. eco maori 4
    7 February 2018 at 7:31 am

    Yes Bug Man Ruud Kleinpast this is my view on all our beautiful Piharenga /Insects but like anything to much of anything upset the Life balance . One season on the farm there were hundreds of millions of flys F that ka kite aon

  5. eco maori 5
    7 February 2018 at 7:32 am

    Good Rock Rumble people give us a sore face Ka pai

    • eco maori 5.1
      7 February 2018 at 8:27 am

      You did it Rock Rumble radio my face is sore I was blowing to my son in law about my bug shoulder and said my offspring have inherited this. I laughed when he had the courage to say yea but you got short as legs like I started looking for shoes with a bit more heal on the only problem was I can’t afford them lol keep up the good work people I can see the cops have been spinning there lies again

      • eco maori 5.1.1
        7 February 2018 at 8:49 am

        Well you are going to see how there spinning lies get them on the hot coals of a NZ Court house Ana to kai Ka pai King Karlos A Maori with Great Mana Ka kite ano

        • eco maori 5.1.1.1
          7 February 2018 at 3:36 pm

          You can still donate you just have to hit the tab donate anyway on my give a little page

          • eco maori 5.1.1.1.1
            7 February 2018 at 7:28 pm

            I pumped out 2 days of lawns today so I don’t have to put up with the sandflys for another day + it’s less fuel but I’m stuffed.
            I say that school should have all the same school uniform and that will bring the price down and there will be more secondhand uniform available good topic Hillary good show on TVNZ at 7 pm on 1

            • eco maori 5.1.1.1.1.1
              7 February 2018 at 7:40 pm

              And a interview Live With Lionel Richie Hillary & Jeremy what a scoop kai pai
              Ka kite ano

              • Eco Maori …
                7 February 2018 at 10:51 pm

                ECO MAORI had a sore face yesterday when I pllanted a bluff with one of the sandflys actor’s I told him I was going to work on Waitangi Day because the sandflys would be on holiday yea right. They even got a client to tx me to try and get me to reveal if I was going to work or not ECO ignored the tx. The sandflys were waiting around tauranga ready to start there intimidation game ECO snuffed that move up the sandflys would have been pissed. I foiled all there plays today to.I’m no longer going to go with these plays I’m going to shut them down straight away. They have a new option person I can tell by the way there moves have change. Ana to kai

  6. reason 6
    7 February 2018 at 8:30 am

    War Criminals

    Obama was the true smiling assassin … He engaged in constant war….. and honed the usa’s execution killing skills of lesser people in far away lands …..

    Issuing Presidential death decrees …Using Predator Drones and ‘special forces’ … The presidents personal JSOC kill crews …. and privateer mercenaries from the likes of Black water.

    But It gets worse ….Obama seemed to cross a line, … downwards … when as a result of his orders a innocent boy, Abdulrahman al-Awlaki, 16 years old and a usa citizen … was murdered without trial … death by drone.

    Jeremy Scahills desperately sad movie documentary called “Dirty Wars” … details this and other war sickness… like compulsive repetitive lies from officials.

    At this point we should note that Another Nobel Peace Prize Killer … Henry Kissenger … had established the right of the executive branch of the white house to murder with impunity ..

    All done ‘legally’ as Wayne Mapp would say .. when a usa judge dismissed a case brought against Kissenger … by the now adult child of murder victim and former Chilean Army Commander Rene Schneider …who had been killed .. because he believed in the rule of law.

    No justice was found in the usa legal system .. with a usa judge ruling their domestic laws … for things like murder …. did not apply to foreign policy … if your a white house wide boy.

    Like criminal wide boys ….These uber VIPs had already declared themselves and any usa military invasion forces … above and off limits for any war crime prosecutions.

    Anyway, one of my gripes against Obama …. was his gifting of a turn key killing machine to Trump…

    and so it proved to be with Trump killing the 8 year old sister of the 16 year boy / her brother that Obama killed…. I think Trump killed their mum as well.

    It seemed to me only a matter of time before this execution without trial … needing only the presidents order … would take place against usa citizens .. in their own ‘homeland’.

    The next logical step in a frame work of blood lust military insanity.

    But Somehow I had missed it … forgot it … or did not recognize it specifically for what it was at the time.

    Bill Clinton had the guts to blaze this trail …. with scant credit or recognition.

    Despite his humble discretion …. The documentary below shows u.s citizens,… mainly unarmed women and children… being murdered by the presidents special forces …. with extreme cruelty

    Not in the beginning of the doco.. where incompetent gung-ho aggression from ATF agents and local law back-ups … starts the killing…

    But in the deliberate savage assault following a siege ….where a shaped charge is dropped on usa women and children …. bombed and burned like they were in a Baghdad bunker…. Literally.

    Machine guns and sniper fire .. is used to butcher others and prevent escape from burning to death ..

    Its quite amazing the amount of freedoms a usa president and his personal legion has …

    exceptional dishonesty, cruelty and injustice.

    • Johan 6.1
      7 February 2018 at 10:38 am

      “Issuing Presidential death decrees …Using Predator Drones and ‘special forces’ …

      The purchase and the program by the military of the USA to use drones had begun well before Obama became president. Nice of you to cherry pick incidents in war as if they only happen on one side. War is hell, do a bit of historical research.

      • francesca 6.1.1
        7 February 2018 at 11:04 am

        Yes, but Obama ramped the whole drone program up several notches from Bush. It means less of your own boys/gals coming home in body bags, so electorally , all good.
        Never mind about the collateral damage, thats “over there” amongst the unexceptional dispensible folk of the Unamerican primitive world

        • Andre 6.1.1.1
          7 February 2018 at 11:11 am

          And it’s been ramped up to a whole new level under Dolt45. Where they’ve pretty stopped even pretending to care about how many civilians get caught up as “collateral damage”.

          https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-is-killing-record-numbers-of-civilians_us_59f9cc1be4b0412aab840c87

          • francesca 6.1.1.1.1
            7 February 2018 at 11:27 am

            Each POTUS seems to set the scene for further normalisation of killing and carnage.Hopefully whereas “good guy” Obama sedated the peace movement, Trump’s odious character will reignite it.
            But I’m not holding my breath

            • Sabine 6.1.1.1.1.1
              7 February 2018 at 11:48 am

              Yeah, right Tui.

              There will be a ‘peacemovment’ under Trump.

              thanks i needed a laugh.

              • francesca …
                7 February 2018 at 2:15 pm

                Surprised at your response.
                Trump wouldnt LEAD a peace movement, but opposition to his ramped up militarism could surely revive the peace movement. That is if Americans can get over their exceptionalism

                • Sabine …
                  7 February 2018 at 2:49 pm

                  why, because i have absolutly no use for wishful thinking.

                  But hey, i am sure Russia today and yesterday had a ‘peacemovement’, so does North Korea, China etc etc etc, 🙂

                  seriously does this buffon really have to kill someone on fifth avenue for people to realise that he will not – under no circumstances – allow ‘dissent’?

                  He just called Democrats ‘treasonous’ for not clapping.

            • reason 6.1.1.1.1.2
              8 February 2018 at 12:40 am

              Its true that the democrats get away with their war crimes easier …

              I can not recall anything in the news relating to Bill Clintons order …An order that had to be given …. For his Alpha team special forces to cross the Rubicon and use its war weapons…. in an operation of overkill against usa citizens on usa soil ….

              Horrendously killing approximately 75 civilians… around half of which were women and children …. in ruthless military fashion.

              We have a media… where we are all knowledgeable that Bill Clinton played the sax ……….. But uninformed of his behind the scene orders as commander in chief of the Waco massacre.

              A clean up helped Bill clinton keep the blood from dead Waco children and women from staining him…. Some documents and other evidence were removed by white house staffers and given to the first lady … to forever disappear.

              Bill Clinton is now in my eyes a murderous sex offender …..

              A flashed up Durte …. who can play the sax

    • Kevin 6.2
      7 February 2018 at 11:56 am

      https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/

      Very disturbing, in depth study of the planning, targeting and execution of targets.

    • Sacha 6.3
      7 February 2018 at 1:36 pm

      Is that you … Phil Ure?

  7. cleangreen 7
    7 February 2018 at 8:33 am

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/101212158/nz-share-market-in-for-an-ugly-day-after-global-rout

    The grim reality that the wealth creation built since the GFC in 2007/2008 is an illusion that can only survive on record low interest rates and insane Quantitate Easing is starting to sink in with the Dow Jones following up the 666 point loss on Friday with a horror 1175 point plunge today.

    2018 GFC;

    Caravans will cost three hundred rent cost from next year as homes are sold as ‘bank repo’s’ the party is over for the speculators.

    Reality is nigh as “what goes up must come down”

    Our ‘essential services (power/water) will climb as most of these former civic services have largely been “privatised” by the former national Government.

    Solar panels and home wind turbines along with (roof collection self storage water tanks) alongside homes will dot the entire landscape as homeowners switch to providing their own power and water services.

    This is already happening in USA.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 7.1
      7 February 2018 at 8:45 am

      You’re a day out of date.

      The stock market recovered after an early plunge on Tuesday (Wednesday NZ Time) and was little changed in morning trading, raising hopes of a halt to a global sell-off in stock markets. The swings came one day after the steepest drop in 6 1/2 years.

      CNN is reporting the Dow as “storming back”.

      Please note, this comment is not a defence of financial systems or “Capitalism” (if you can, as Chomsky said, “show me some”, that is) or neoliberalism

      A few years back it was fashionable among some Standardistas to predict the collapse of all fiat currencies by 2016. You don’t see too much of that anymore.

  8. savenz 8
    7 February 2018 at 9:20 am

    An option for state houses and new builds? 4 days to build 2 bedroom eco home.

    https://newatlas.com/kiss-house-flatpack-prefab-passivhaus/50106/#gallery

    • mac1 8.1
      7 February 2018 at 9:36 am

      Meanwhile in Blenheim, covenants in housing divisions specify such things as minimum house size and style. They assert a minimum 145 sq m when the builder below is building kit set 104 sq m homes for $225,000.

      The ‘developers’ obviously want a better look, or more profit from oversizing?

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/property/100967443/little-hope-for-builder-as-readymade-homes-ruled-out-by-subdivision-covenants?cid=edm:stuff:marlboroughexpress&bid=586440584

      Some 15% of homes, I read, built since 2000 are smaller 1-2 bedroom units meaning that cost, size, builder and smaller building availability all conspire to deepen the housing crisis.

      And further meanwhile in Blenheim, a town of 20,000, upwards of 60 people attend rental property open days hoping for a rental. Those who miss out may have to live for $1000 plus a week in emergency accommodation in motels, like this couple with child.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/101073989/A-young-familys-hopeless-search-for-a-home-in-Marlborough

      • weka 8.1.1
        7 February 2018 at 9:45 am

        banks are in on that minimum size thing and the look thing too. Much easier to sell a carbon copy house in a mortgagee sail.

        • mac1 8.1.1.1
          7 February 2018 at 10:43 am

          “Bigger boxes on the hillside
          Bigger boxes made of ticky-tacky
          Bigger boxes on the hillside
          Bigger boxes all the same
          There’s a brick one and a block one
          Concrete and triple garaging
          And though they are all bigger
          They still look just the same!”

          Apologies to Malvina Reynolds.

          • weka 8.1.1.1.1
            7 February 2018 at 11:06 am

            lol, I was thinking that too.

          • joe90 8.1.1.1.2
            7 February 2018 at 2:16 pm

            Yet the Levittown homes were around 70 square metres.

            • mac1 8.1.1.1.2.1
              7 February 2018 at 7:29 pm

              “Any fool can build homes—what counts is how many you can sell for how little.” William J. Levitt

              Thinking has changed since. Now it’s keep the demand high along with the prices.

      • savenz 8.1.2
        7 February 2018 at 9:58 am

        @ Mac 1, That is bizarre to demand 145m2!

        The 3 and 4 bedroom villas of the early 1900’s were often 100m2!

        Huge international trend on tiny houses that are under 40m2.

        One of the things that stopped many in Auckland buying was that banks would not lend under 40m2 apartments. So then only cashed up people (investors, new residents and those will cash or asset already could buy them).

        Developers are there for profit so they are and have never been the answer to affordable housing.

        It’s a right wing myth that more houses will stop the crisis because the houses being built are not designed for about 35% of the population that can’t afford to buy a house.

        However the answer is not to throw out amenity controls, but more to reach a compromise of a practical and healthy dwelling that fulfils it’s role. In my mind size is the better sacrifice than windows and outdoor space. You don’t want to build cage houses either.

        • weka 8.1.2.1
          7 February 2018 at 11:09 am

          It also takes more energy to heat a larger house, so savings in grid energy use are being offset by the increase in size. We’re so fucking stupid. People treat energy use savings as a financial thing. It’s far more important as a climate change issue.

          We need to guard against the push for apartments that are basically cells, but we should be incentivising people to build smaller houses at this point.

        • Craig H 8.1.2.2
          7 February 2018 at 1:52 pm

          Bear in mind that the size includes an attached garage, which old villas normally don’t have.

      • Rosemary McDonald 8.1.3
        7 February 2018 at 12:03 pm

        Meanwhile in Kaitaia….https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/teahikaa/audio/2018630459/he-korowai-trust-s-mission-to-make-a-difference

        I’ve been watching these guys build the emergency accommodation units out the back of the old Kaitaia hotel…always a hive of activity.

        I was also chatting to a guy staying in one of the rooms in the Hotel…and ex prisoner…. he was in the early stages of re integration and was struggling a bit with the strict rules he had to abide by. He could see that the rules were for his own good in the long term This is the strength of He Korowai Trust. They provide an holistic service, and like any whanau, there are rules and expectations of certain standards of behaviour.

        They also have papakainga housing…also with strict no booze, drugs, violence rules.

        Ricky Houghton does great work…should have been New Zealander of the Year.

    • Draco T Bastard 8.2
      7 February 2018 at 10:28 am

      I’m pretty sure that’s exactly what Labour have planned. It’s why they’ve been going on about pre-built housing for some time.

      It makes sense. Build the house to high specification in a factory and then ship it to the desired location to assemble it.

      Thing is, it’d be even better if they used such systems to build high-rise apartment buildings like this. Even more efficient then.

      It’s a question of logistics. Making sure that the materials, the factories and the skilled people are available to do the building. That’s why it’s going to take a few years to get Labour’s Kiwibuild going. Those logistics simply aren’t in place due to the failure of the ‘free-market’.

      • McFlock 8.2.1
        7 February 2018 at 11:00 am

        Prefab also lowers the skill requirements onsite. If everything clips together, you don’t need so many people who are capable of working around the vagaries of an architect’s innovative ideas where shit doesn’t quite line up.

        A decorator mate of mine had an entertaining story about how the builders and plasterers had a hell of a time trying to create a swooping curved wall that looked awesome on paper lol

        • Draco T Bastard 8.2.1.1
          7 February 2018 at 11:21 am

          Prefab also lowers the skill requirements onsite.

          True which just means that it’s only a matter of time before people aren’t required on site at all.

          A decorator mate of mine had an entertaining story about how the builders and plasterers had a hell of a time trying to create a swooping curved wall that looked awesome on paper lol

          And my nephew told me of how he was stopped from taking pictures of his own work which the architect then took pictures of and put into the architectural drawings as his own work.

  9. Adrian 9
    7 February 2018 at 10:03 am

    Just watched the most amazing thing, true history in the making. Both boosters of the Spacex Falcon Heavy ( now I wonder why Elon Musk called it that! ) came back to the Canaveral launch pad and landed vertically. Straight out of Star Wars.
    Absolutely amazing.

    • millsy 9.1
      7 February 2018 at 10:33 am

      For the cost of space travel to come down, flyback boosters are are nessesity. Too bad the idea of the Space Shuttle having such a system was dropped.

    • Andre 9.2
      7 February 2018 at 10:54 am

      Did Musk really just launch the Stig out to beyond Mars in a little red car?

      On reflection, that might actually be a good use for a test launch where you don’t want to risk anything valuable…

      • Draco T Bastard 9.2.1
        7 February 2018 at 11:30 am

        Yes he did and yes sending the car on the test flight was a better option than sending anything of worth. Still, something tells me there’s more than the car on board:

        The longer the flight, he noted, the more the company would learn from the heavily instrumented rocket.

        SpaceX is hoping for live shots of the car from on-board cameras, once the protective enclosure comes off and the car sails off fully exposed.

        The car faces considerable speed bumps before settling into its intended orbit around the sun, an oval circle stretching from the orbit of Earth on one end to the orbit of Mars on the other.

        I would be highly surprised if they didn’t have all sorts of measuring equipment on that car.

        • Andre 9.2.1.1
          7 February 2018 at 12:11 pm

          I s’pose if the aliens find it they’ll really be wondering how the fuck it got there and what kind of physics its propulsion system uses that they don’t understand.

        • joe90 9.2.1.2
          7 February 2018 at 1:44 pm

          This launch was a test and rather than compound any failure with the loss of expensive kit, the usual test payload is a block of concrete.

    • weka 9.3
      7 February 2018 at 11:19 am

      While the boys play with their toys, climate change marches on.

      • McFlock 9.3.1
        7 February 2018 at 11:23 am

        Actually, it’s pretty important for our longer term species survival that we get off this rock.

        Sooner or later it’ll get hit by another massive impactor like the one that took out most of the dinosaurs.

        • weka 9.3.1.1
          7 February 2018 at 12:17 pm

          There are direct links between the desire to get off this rock and our trashing of this rock. I’d prefer us to look after this planet instead of looking for an escape route. Especially as the looking for an escape route is taking part in trashing the planet.

          Am happy to take our chances with a meteor. When we know how to look after this place, and learn how to leave without trashing things, I’ll probably change my mind.

          • McFlock 9.3.1.1.1
            7 February 2018 at 12:20 pm

            You’re happy to take your chances.

            Musk isn’t.

            And the space program is integral to understanding just how we’re trashing this rock, and what we can do to un-trash it.

            • weka 9.3.1.1.1.1
              7 February 2018 at 1:28 pm

              No, it really isn’t. The science is in. What we need to do is stop burning fossil fuels now and keep on expanding. Space development ignores that and says we can keep doing what we want when we want and technology will save us. That’s a massive risk right now, not some eon in the future when an asteroid may or may not hit us.

              • McFlock …
                7 February 2018 at 1:44 pm

                There’s a lot in that statement.

                Firstly, the window to stop burning coal has long passed. Now we really do need some tech to go alongside that.

                Secondly, space exploration helps us know the extent of the problem, and new problems we hadn’t spotted before – so we know AGW is a problem, what about another CFC-style issue? What about weather monitoring?

                Thirdly, asteroid issues are real. There’s no point solving AGW only to get zotzed by something we could have seen coming and maybe have done something about.

                Fourthly, the message you take from space exploration is remarkably pessimistic. For many people, the more we know about the hostile environment around us makes us aware of just how precious and unique this planet is. Nobody wants to leave the ship for the lifeboat – but not having enough lifeboats is always a regretted decision.

                • weka …
                  7 February 2018 at 2:04 pm

                  “Firstly, the window to stop burning coal has long passed. Now we really do need some tech to go alongside that.”

                  Not sure what you mean by the windows to stop burning coal has passed. That window will never pass as long as we are burning coal (and gas and oil). The tech we need alongside stopping burning FF doesn’t need the space program. Our immediate problems are social and political not technical.

                  “Secondly, space exploration helps us know the extent of the problem, and new problems we hadn’t spotted before – so we know AGW is a problem, what about another CFC-style issue? What about weather monitoring?”

                  And that’s fine were space exploration not contributing to climate change now. Unknown problems we will face in the future doesn’t trump what we are doing and need to be doing instead now.

                  “Thirdly, asteroid issues are real. There’s no point solving AGW only to get zotzed by something we could have seen coming and maybe have done something about.”

                  Nevertheless, it’s madness to burn fossil fuels to do that. If I saw pro-space people being willing to power down, I’d be more supportive of resources going to space programs. But atm what I see is people saying hey tech will save us so lets keep burning some fossil fuels. Bill has written about this a lot, but there is plenty in the mainstream now too. CCS is not going to save us, and we are already in major overshoot.

                  “Fourthly, the message you take from space exploration is remarkably pessimistic. For many people, the more we know about the hostile environment around us makes us aware of just how precious and unique this planet is. Nobody wants to leave the ship for the lifeboat – but not having enough lifeboats is always a regretted decision.”

                  I don’t experience the environment as hostile and prefer world views that support humans as part of the environment. What I’m pointing to is that the paradigm that sees nature as hostile and we need high tech to survive it, is the paradigm that not only brought us CC but is resisting doing something about it. That many people believe in that paradigm doesn’t make it right or useful, and this is the core of it. Humans aren’t the most important thing here, not because we’re unimportant (we’re not), but because seeing ourselves as separate is the problem. We are *utterly dependent upon the environment within its own nature i.e.. functional living systems. Human tech can help us within that, but at the moment we are mostly living in denial of it.

                  • McFlock …
                    7 February 2018 at 2:56 pm

                    Space is the hostile environment. The earth is a solitary oasis of life in a desolate, though beautiful, void. Anything remotely as habitable as earth will be unobtainably distant.

                    As for windows, we’re still looking at >2C. That will require new tech to deal with. Much of our tech comes directly from the space programmes of different nations, such as fuel cells. The trivial amount of carbon contributed by space exploration (compared to cars and construction) is well worth the effort.

                    Unknown problems in the future are what will bite us in the arse, so we’d better get to know them. We need to know the composition and orbits of NEO bodies now, so we will be able to do something about them in the future. So far we’re lucky that the notable ones in the last hundred years or so have landed in desolate areas.

            • One Two 9.3.1.1.1.2
              7 February 2018 at 2:47 pm

              Musk isn’t doing anything

              He is neither the brains nor the funds behind his financially failing endevours…

              The space program is irrelevant and is adding to environmental destruction…

              Not that it will stop whomever is behind it…

              Not that it will save or be the saviour of our species…

              The rich who DTB wants to get rid off…he will have his wish…they will bw exiting this rock…once they’ve finished wrecking it…

              • McFlock …
                7 February 2018 at 3:07 pm

                You know nothing. What use are you.

                • Gabby …
                  7 February 2018 at 5:40 pm

                  So Musk is advertising his govt subsidised cars at govt expense.

                  • McFlock …
                    7 February 2018 at 5:44 pm

                    Using the government developed internet as well, the rotter.

                    If the government really is subsidising both ventures, count that as two sensible things Trump hasn’t yet shut down.

              • JohnSelway …
                7 February 2018 at 3:19 pm

                “The space program is irrelevant ”

                Wow. Care to elaborate what is so irrelevant about it?

                • One Two …
                  7 February 2018 at 3:32 pm

                  It is irrelevant for the following reasons (not exhaustive)

                  1. It is not, and will not contribute to solving the serious issues being faced, right now…

                  2. Because the issues being faced have solutions which do not require the space program as part of an action plan, the space program is irrelevant…

                  Except to those who control it…and the ‘stakeholders’..
                  …

                  Note: Stakeholders list does not include 99.99% of the planets inhabitants, or the planet itself…

                  Space Program. Irrelevant!

                  • McFlock …
                    7 February 2018 at 3:35 pm

                    In that case, NASA would be irrelevant to the AGW argument.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      7 February 2018 at 5:29 pm

                      Pretty sure numpty here is a climate denier. It’s all “geo-engineering” and “weather tech”.

                  • JohnSelway …
                    7 February 2018 at 3:57 pm

                    In response to your numbered list:

                    1. Even if true (which itsn’t) we can do more than one thing at a time

                    2. See point one

                    The space program itself has numerous off-shoots which have beneficial to mankind and its R&D have contributed directly to civilian use rather than ‘stakeholders’ whomever they may be.

                    Not to mention the more we discover about who we are, why we are, where we are and when we are are pretty important things to know.

                    • One Two …
                      7 February 2018 at 4:11 pm

                      How is point 1, not true IYO, John?

                      * Preventing wars/military industry
                      * Preventing famines/feeding the starving
                      * Reducing inequality (name the type)
                      * Reducing financial debt burdon
                      * etc etc

                      Who we are, why we are here….important things to know, I agree…

                      The power structures won’t be sharing that information with you, John….and that power structure are stakeholders in the space program…

                      See the degradation of education frameworks around the ‘western world’…..that’s what ‘you’ get to know….

                      Irrelevant!

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      7 February 2018 at 4:36 pm

                      * Preventing wars/military industry

                      The purpose of spying is to prevent and/or shorten wars. Satellites are part of that process. If you have a substantive argument against that premise, rather than simply scoffing at it, let’s hear it, and let’s see you take account of The Better Angels Of Our Nature while you’re about it.

                      * Preventing famines/feeding the starving

                      Most famine is caused by war, and note that information about climate change, and associated droughts, has been driven in large part by NASA.

                      * Reducing inequality (name the type)

                      Information is power. Seeing photographs of Earth from space reminds everyone that we’re all in this together. Beyond that, inequality is a political choice. We could double the space program and still bring the GINI to a better value.

                      * Reducing financial debt burdon

                      What financial debt burden? On a planetary scale it’s a zero sum. Also a political choice.

                      NASA is 0.5% of the US budget. Military spending is more like 50%.

                      Water purification tech, early warning for shingles attacks, asthma treatment, vaccine development, cell behaviour, environmental health, climate monitoring, weather warnings, robotic prosthetics, disaster response, preventing bone loss in old age, treatment for strokes and cerebral palsy.

                      Et cetera, et cetera.

                    • spikeyboy []
                      7 February 2018 at 6:30 pm

                      You really believe the purpose of spying is to prevent or shorten wars????
                      What a flippin idiotic thing to say.
                      CIA for the next nobel peace prize then.
                      I finally understand why you believe everything the spy agencies say.

                    • JohnSelway …
                      7 February 2018 at 5:17 pm

                      Because of the following which I already said:

                      “The space program itself has numerous off-shoots which have beneficial to mankind and its R&D have contributed directly to civilian use rather than ‘stakeholders’ whomever they may be.

                      Not to mention the more we discover about who we are, why we are, where we are and when we are are pretty important things to know.”

                      You’re second point is what is irrelevant rather than the space program. I’m not sure what you mean by “The power structures won’t be sharing that information with you, John….and that power structure are stakeholders in the space program…”

                      What is being withheld? The earth is flat? The earth is hollow? There are beings on Mars yet the phony Mar’s Rover is actually broadcasting from a set in Area 51?
                      Please tell me what is being held back by the power structures. You’re long on rhetoric but slim in actual ‘facts’

                    • JohnSelway …
                      7 February 2018 at 5:56 pm

                      Just for you OneTwo….

                      http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/benefits_of_space_program.html

                      Try argue against these ‘irrelevant’ benefits and stay fashionable my binary friend.

                    • One Two []
                      7 February 2018 at 10:31 pm

                      You’re not comprehending what I’ve clearly stated, John…

                      So I’ll give it one final attempt…

                      If the space program was halted permanently from this moment, there is nothing that would be lost from the available solutions list to remediate the worlds major issues…

                      We have the capability right at this precise same moment, what we lack is the environmental and collective will power to allow true remediation to proceed…

                      Irrelevant!

                      Get it?

                      Note: I’ve not referred to positives which have developed out of the space program. You can argue into the mirror…

                      They’re irrelevant to the remediations I’m referring to.. in the same way your responses have been…

                      If you’re still not able to understand, take a read through wekas comments a little higher up…perhaps they will help you out of the mud you’re stuck in…

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      7 February 2018 at 6:47 pm

                      @Spikeyboy.

                      You failed to provide any substantive rebuttal. so here’s a longer-form argument to chew on:

                      As expressed by Sun Tzu:

                      …There is no instance of a nation benefiting from prolonged warfare…

                      No shit Sun.

                      In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy’s country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them.

                      “Best”, because fewer people die. In case you were wondering.

                      …to remain in ignorance of the enemy’s condition simply because one grudges the outlay of a hundred ounces of silver in honours and emoluments, is the height of inhumanity.

                      To send troops on (for example) a peacekeeping mission without knowledge of the warring factions isn’t just a stupid thing to do: it’s the height of inhumanity. Send your army deaf and blind into the field and see how long your command lasts.

                    • spikeyboy []
                      7 February 2018 at 10:51 pm

                      Oh. So not only are the spies cotenders for innumerable peace prizes but philosophers as well.
                      The CIA trained and armed jihadists in Syria. Not noted for capturing anyone much alive or if they do not for long.
                      Libya whole and in good condition. Yeah right. Same with Syria. Their philosophy is more like Trump throwing his toys out of the cot. If you wont let us exploit your resources then we’ll make sure nobody gets them. What planet do you live on OAB? Spies make the world safer??? Spies have the good of humanity at heart?? This is a religous statement. Faith based and completely contradicted by reality. Somewhere further down this thread someone references Lee Camp. For the real take on the idiocy of spy agencies. Like real dumb fucks in a very Trump sort of way. Not sure they could even spell philosophy or humanity. Oh and Lee Camp is real funny tòo.
                      https://leecamp.com/

                    • McFlock …
                      7 February 2018 at 10:47 pm

                      If the space program was halted permanently from this moment, there is nothing that would be lost from the available solutions list to remediate the worlds major issues…

                      Except a tool to monitor whether what solutions we implement are actually working to the level we need.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      8 February 2018 at 5:10 am

                      @Spikeyboy.

                      Did I say anything at all about the ethics and character of people who become spies? Or what they have “at heart”? No, and no.

                      Did I express an opinion about whether the USA uses its ‘intelligence’ agencies sensibly? No.

                      Is anything I said a defence of US foreign policy? No.

                      Is the US the only country in the world whose leaders employ spies? No.

                      Your ‘argument’ is the equivalent to pointing at a trainwreck and concluding that public transport must be bad.

                      Still, at least you’re consistent.

                    • spikeyboy []
                      8 February 2018 at 8:13 am

                      You said that the purpose of spying is to prevent or shorten wars???
                      An incomprehensible statement given reality

                    • spikeyboy []
                      8 February 2018 at 8:28 am

                      The edit was going to say:
                      Your train wreck analogy just might have worked if we were talking one wreck. We’re not. Its many many many train wrecks to the point where sane people start to question the underlying system. Doing the same shit and expecting different resuts ring any bells?? Lie after lie after lie but still you say this time its the truth?? Hence the refrrence to religion. Your bible says spies work for peace so their lies aren’t lies. They can’t always be straight for our own good is it?? You fit the defunition of insanity stated above

                    • JohnSelway …
                      8 February 2018 at 6:12 am

                      “If the space program was halted permanently from this moment, there is nothing that would be lost from the available solutions list to remediate the worlds major issues…”

                      Except the ability to learn more and further our advancement in many areas of sciences and technology which may help us avert or restrain problems in the future

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      8 February 2018 at 8:25 am

                      @Spikeyboy.

                      Speaking of what you affect to know about ‘reality’, I also referenced The Better Angels Of Our Nature, which presents evidence that we’re living in one of the least violent eras in human history. If true, that’s hardly surprising given the increased capabilities of communications technology.

                      Nothing you’ve ranted comes close to demonstrating that you even understand the argument, let alone a substantive rebuttal.

                    • spikeyboy []
                      8 February 2018 at 3:21 pm

                      You reference an 800 page book. Maybe you can help me out with page numbers to support your assertion that spy agencies work for peace.
                      Also you show your euro centric (racial) bias. As a percentage of world population violence has decreased. This means European/USA experience of violence which isnt the same as American Indian experience or Maori or Syrian or Libian or Rwanda etc. Its all very easy when you belong to the priviledged group to bang on about how great things are.
                      Like Madeleine Allbrights belief that 10s of thousands of starved children or deaths from lack of medicine is an acceptable price. Whats your acceptable price OAB?
                      And last time I looked it was the spy agencies that lied about WMD.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      8 February 2018 at 8:43 am

                      Your bible says spies work for peace so their lies aren’t lies.

                      Does it? Where, ranty-boy?

                      What it actually says is that leaders should avoid wars if at all possible, and if they have no choice, advises them how to win fast and well.

                      In contrast, eg: Bush and Blair ignored what their spies told them, and are now regarded as war criminals.

                    • spikeyboy []
                      8 February 2018 at 3:41 pm

                      So it doesnt say that? Then where did you get such an absurd idea from??

                    • McFlock …
                      8 February 2018 at 3:38 pm

                      For what it’s worth, there’s considerable evidence that the US knowledge of the Soviet reaction to Exercise Able Archer 83 helped pivot Reagan’s “evil empire” rhetoric into a de-escalation stance.

                      That knowledge came from US spies in the Soviet union.

                      Similarly, had warnings of military build-ups been heeded, maybe not so many Soviets would have died in WW2, and maybe the backlash against German civilians might not have been so visceral.

                      And then one could argue that the almost immediate ending of the US monopoly on nuclear weapons prevented their use in Korea – MacArthur was already pushing for it, and if there hadn’t been the threat of retaliation it might have been a tempting option in the see-sawing territorial possession.

                    • spikeyboy []
                      8 February 2018 at 3:55 pm

                      Thats a long stretch back in time. How anout recently? The only one I can think of is Obama being told there was no credible evidence of Assad launching the Gouta chemical weapon attack but peobably didnt need a spy agency to tell him that.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      8 February 2018 at 4:14 pm

                      @Spikeyboy.

                      Eight hundred pages? You must have an extended version. Even my hardback copy with additional material by Sun Pin and extensive notes by Ralph D. Sawyer only runs to three-hundred odd pages.

                      This is a pretty good version; it lays out the thirteen chapters clearly and only has a minimal amount of ‘chatter’, or commentary if you prefer.

                      I already quoted extensively from Chapter 13: The Use Of Spies, including Sun Tzu’s observation about ‘the height of inhumanity’. Chapter 2 goes into more details about the evils of war, so it’s worth reading that too – it’s only twenty paragraphs. But if you really want to get a firmer grasp on Taoist philosophy on such matters, read Lao Tzu side-by side with Sun Tzu.

                      Also, I already answered your question: send your peace keepers deaf and blind into the field and see how long your command lasts. Do you really not understand how that works?

                      Fair call on my Eurocentric bias – although I’m not sure it’s a valid criticism of Pinker (author of Better Angels…). The charge has certainly been levelled at him, with some fairly solid push-back.

                      Please note that I didn’t say “how great things are.” If the only way you can rebut my argument is to twist my words, why not just start waving your white flag right now?

                    • spikeyboy []
                      8 February 2018 at 8:07 pm

                      Ok. So thanks for the link. Ive read the first chapter and you’re right theres a lot to chew over.
                      War is hell. Thats the first point.I consider myself lucky enough to have experienced the tail end of a war zone. Bosnia circa 1995. Lucky because I know first hand that war should be avoided if at all possible. War can also be addictive. I saw many ngo workers talk nostalgically about the days when they were taking fire.
                      Some anecdotes as relates to chapter one. Analysis of each participant. For some time I was based in the small village of Olovo. I spent an evening on the fringe of a group that contained a Russian officer. He was relaxed and comfortable in the company of the local population. The Russians arrived before the Americans. When American soldiers arrived in the valley they walked in single file in a large group of 6 or 7 with their guns in the air and the last man walking backwards. Very stressed and very nervous. No wonder they shoot civilians. And the bit about laws. When Americans break laws they are not held to account. How can anyone respect that? In Bosnia if you killed someone on the road like as notyoud get 5 years jail time. We all lived with that. Not Americans. I talked to one guy who was being smuggled out of the country because he had run someone over. As an aside NZ soldiers drove around the country side doing shows at schools and openly trying to engage with the locals. I guess that got lost somewhere in Afghanistan and we got Americanised and started shooting up the locals. On all counts except raw power in Chapter 1 the American military are inferior. If they have a philosophy it is that you gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette. Its the military version of fudamental Christianity where everyones going to heaven except theres the apocalypse first. Russian philosophy is way more exciting. It was a Russian who pretty much dealt the death blow to any credibility in believing in an all powerful god. All powerful but ignores suffering and injustice. This Russian pretty forcefully put his line in the sand. You (god) say that we can all go to heaven but there is a little bit of torture and rape and so forth which must go on first. Well he said if the cost is just one child tortured you can stick your heaven up your jacksy. Which is only right and proper because this is the original snake oul salesman. Next thing you know youre dealing with Allbrights 10s of thousands of Iraqi children only to find that thats srill not enough human sacrifice. More is needed!! Keep piling up the corpses.
                      So certainly no discipline in the American Military. Of course No one in their right mind would feel too good following Trump onto the battlefield. But really was Obama much better after he caved in to the bankers at the very moment when they thought the game was up. Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. What a glorious start for the commander in chief. So weve dealt with moral compass and leaders a little of course just my ramblings. As for Generals one of Trumps Junta was involved in the Falujah massacre. Its difficult at the moment to check which one. So for all these reasons and more I will never support the US military but mostly because they are above the law and are the play thing of an elite who are also above the law. So thanks for giving me more solid ground to base my convictions. Now and not just to make you see Red. Some kind words about Putin. Please offer back some links with solid proof of Putins corruption. There is a story about Putin that goes like this. When he came to power he gathered up all the oligarchs that had been trampling willie nilly all over Yeltsin and he said to them:
                      I’m going to let you all keep your illegal and ill-gotten gains but you have to obey the law and pay your taxes. And when they didn’t they got thrown in jail as promised and each one that ended up in jail was portrayed as some kind of hero or resistance fighter in the west. Personally I respect that and I think Suntzu would too. I also respect his hours long talks to all media. You want the people to come along with you its probably a good idea to talk to them. Maybe answer a few questions… So I guess in my book we’re gonna see if raw power trumps all the other attributes in chapter 1. The ultimate battle of materialism against all the intangibles. Have to say I’m quietly confident except as Putin accused Obama of Trump may just smash up the chess board…

                    • McFlock …
                      8 February 2018 at 4:22 pm

                      AA83 wasn’t that long ago.

                      More recently, how about all those meetings with Russians the trump team had? Certainly limited the friction between US and Russia. But maybe that doesn’t count, despite the FISA warrants and plea bargains.

                    • spikeyboy []
                      9 February 2018 at 1:22 am

                      Of course it counts. And heres a fascinating read on attempts to sway Obama away from his arming of the jihadists featuring one Michael Flynn as head of the DIA. Seems though that the whole house is now stacked with Russophobes with the appointment of Dunford as chairman of the Joint Chiefs.

                      https://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n01/seymour-m-hersh/military-to-military

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      8 February 2018 at 4:27 pm

                      So it doesnt say that? Then where did you get such an absurd idea from??

                      No, it doesn’t say that “their lies aren’t lies”.

                      In fact it says that “all warfare is based on deception”. In Chapter One. Perhaps if you actually read it (which really doesn’t take long – it’s a very short thesis) you might have some better ‘intelligence’ to base your attacks on.

                    • McFlock …
                      9 February 2018 at 11:27 am

                      oh, ok, if russian collusion counts, then there’s your recent example of spies building peace rather than war.

                    • spikeyboy []
                      9 February 2018 at 11:56 am

                      You could just relax and call it cooperation. Probably the sky wouldnt fall in. But it would require removing Russia from your list of enemies I suppose. If collusion then according to Hersch in the article linked to above it was widespread through the pentagon at the time. Just that Flynn was the only one being open about it. This was written in 2016 so well before Trump was a thing. Cooperation or collusion? The difference is all in how Russia is viewed and at the time the demonisation of Russia hadn’t fully taken hold which is a necessary first step for charges of collusion

                    • McFlock …
                      9 February 2018 at 4:49 pm

                      Aren’t the yanks lucky that an investigation is taking place to gather evidence resolving your questions one way or the other, then.

                    • spikeyboy []
                      9 February 2018 at 5:07 pm

                      I didn’t realize there was an investigation into wether or not Russia was an enemy. That certainly is progress and the type of lateral thinking that I wouldn’t have credited them with

                    • McFlock …
                      9 February 2018 at 5:20 pm

                      “Enemy” isn’t the key word – “foreign” is.

                      Although Russia is currently militarily occupying a NATO-oriented nation and they’re supporting opponents in proxy wars and confrontations, so the difference in the Russia-US case is largely semantic.

                      Either way, if there was FISA-relevant wrongdoing, then yay for the FSB for bringing the superpower-in-decline and the regional power into a more amicable relationship!

                    • spikeyboy []
                      9 February 2018 at 7:08 pm

                      I beg to differ. If foreign were the key word then Jarrod would be in serious trouble over his dealing with and influence peddling for Israel. He’s not so enemy is the key word. You collude with enemies and cooperate with friends

                    • McFlock …
                      9 February 2018 at 7:43 pm

                      No, the act says “foreign”.
                      Secondly, collusion is covert by definition.
                      Thirdly, what about Kushner and Israel? Maybe the Israelis gave him better advice on not making his emails public than the Ruccians did

                    • spikeyboy []
                      9 February 2018 at 8:40 pm

                      It wasn’t emails. It was the taped phone call from Flynn. They have word for word what Flynn was requesting on behalf of Israel from Russia at the behest of Kushner.Enemy remains key. No one is going to press charges of colluding with the UK. Similarly in the USA for Israel.

                    • McFlock …
                      9 February 2018 at 8:46 pm

                      Lolz I didn’t know that one.

                      Assuming Kush wasn’t on the phone, that’s called “hearsay”, but it could well be one of the things Flynn has for “cooperation” with the investigation.

                      The also need to demonstrate knowingly acting as an agent, and I bel;ieve that foreign agents can be declared (like a conflict of interest) so if JK didn’t do that, wait for the wheels of justice to inexorably roll forward… Trump pardons notwithstanding.

                    • spikeyboy []
                      9 February 2018 at 11:02 pm

                      Yes. Time will tell I suppose. Anyhow, thanks for chatting…

          • Draco T Bastard 9.3.1.1.2
            7 February 2018 at 2:45 pm

            There are direct links between the desire to get off this rock and our trashing of this rock. I’d prefer us to look after this planet instead of looking for an escape route.

            We’re not just looking for an escape route.

            Especially as the looking for an escape route is taking part in trashing the planet.

            Except that it isn’t. In fact, without the space program we probably wouldn’t know how much damage we’ve already done.

            • One Two 9.3.1.1.2.1
              7 February 2018 at 3:37 pm

              we’re not just looking for an escape route

              Yes, Draco it’s clear you see yourself as somewhow ‘included’…but you’re not!

              Those ‘rich’ you appreciate so much who are the key stakeholders in the ‘space program’, assured you personally….did they…

              Escape route is exactly what they’re looking for…any collateral benefits would not be shared downwards…

              Trickle down (space) economics…

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                7 February 2018 at 4:49 pm

                A list of ‘collateral benefits shared downwards’ can be found so easily it’s probably more fun to link to the “What Have the Romans Ever Done For Us?” sketch. See further up the page for some examples.

        • greywarshark 9.3.1.2
          7 February 2018 at 3:06 pm

          McFlock
          I think your time epochs are getting mixed up. We should leave next century’s problems for them to deal with rather than presume we know the right thing to do now, and use up all the resources needed before whatever happens.

          For interest and to allow imagination to be titillated I suggest watching Babylon 5.

          (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tj4qfe9afs

          (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJmuHNDcXLQ

          (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDNkJu8xtwo

          • McFlock 9.3.1.2.1
            7 February 2018 at 3:27 pm

            Good show.

            But we need to know what we don’t know, otherwise it might sneak up on us. Besides, space exploration isn’t going to use up all the resources. Consumerism and phone “upgrades” will.

      • Draco T Bastard 9.3.2
        7 February 2018 at 11:33 am

        Climate change marches on because of our inability to reign in car use use. Of course, the people doing space development are also the ones that are more likely to develop a solution to climate change. Solar power was developed because of space development.

        • Sanctuary 9.3.2.1
          7 February 2018 at 12:04 pm

          Watching those two boosters land together was a sci-fi moment in real life.

          The future has arrived, we just saw it land at Cape Canaveral.

          Anyway, curiosity and technology are traits innate to human culture and we are far to long gone on the technology ride to turn our backs on it now without a disaster.

          Like it or not, if capitalism needs constant growth on a finite planet, then the solution to our growth conundrum lies in space, be it mining Asteroids (I’d rather have a sterile, lifeless hunk of space rock host the mining and ore refining operation and the steel mill be on a space station in orbit than have them all here on earth spewing toxic waster into the environment) or even – sci-fi time – colonising the inner planets or even going to Trappist-1 to take a look for life there.

          Also, space based industry is literally outsourcing our carbon emissions!

          • greywarshark 9.3.2.1.1
            7 February 2018 at 1:49 pm

            Sanctuary
            Do you mean that we need a space-connected disaster before we will stop pissing money and resources at the sky?

            • Sanctuary 9.3.2.1.1.1
              7 February 2018 at 3:20 pm

              No. I am saying you are not going to give 10 billion humans a western, middle class life style without going into space to get the resources to make it happen.

              The alternative is most likely population overshoot, climate change, resource wars and probably nuclear catastrophe.

        • weka 9.3.2.2
          7 February 2018 at 12:22 pm

          “Climate change marches on because of our inability to reign in car use use”

          Not really. Magically change all car use to public transport and human generated climate change (and Peak Everything) continues via the growth economies. Car use is a big factor, but it’s not the driver.

          “Of course, the people doing space development are also the ones that are more likely to develop a solution to climate change.”

          We already have a solution to climate change, we just don’t have the will to do it. I don’t see space program people as being any more useful in resolving that. Probably the opposite, because they seem to think they can justify burning fossil fuels.

          “Solar power was developed because of space development.”

          Solar power was developed by evolution. What you mean is electricity generated by capturing solar energy, and we don’t actually need that to survive. If it were a choice between continuing emissions or giving up tech that came about via the space programs then we could still choose to stop emissions and we’d be ok.

          I’m not saying the space development doesn’t do good or useful things. I’m saying it’s insane to be putting effort into that instead of preventing the worst of climate change.

          • AB 9.3.2.2.1
            7 February 2018 at 12:41 pm

            “We already have a solution to climate change, we just don’t have the will to do it.”
            Yeah – everybody knows (as the late great Leonard Cohen said) that the only solutions to CC that will be wholeheartedly embraced are those that either:
            – leave existing profit streams intact, or
            – provide opportunities for the owners of existing profit streams to readily replace or augment them with new ones
            Kinda hard to think of ‘solutions’ that meet either condition really – except for some sort of privately-owned magic ‘tech’ (which is why that idea is so popular)

            • weka 9.3.2.2.1.1
              7 February 2018 at 2:05 pm

              social tipping points are another. Or things we can’t conceive of yet. A major GFC would be a game changer for instance, and how we respond to that would determine how bad things have to get.

          • Draco T Bastard 9.3.2.2.2
            7 February 2018 at 3:08 pm

            Not really.

            Yes, really.

            Magically change all car use to public transport and human generated climate change (and Peak Everything) continues via the growth economies.

            It’s not ‘growth’ per se that drives increased fossil fuel use. It’s the demand for energy a lot of which is used to power transport:

            Oil product demand growth stems mainly from the strong demand growth from the worldwide vehicle fleet, in particular in Asian countries.
            Because of the strong development of their vehicle fleets, China and India continued to be the main source of growth accounting for half of the 2016 hike, while the OECD countries’ consumption increase accounted for close to one third of it.

            Personal cars are a major part of the problem.

            Magically change all car use to public transport and human generated climate change (and Peak Everything) continues via the growth economies.

            Not necessarily.

            We already have a solution to climate change, we just don’t have the will to do it.

            True. Banning personal cars and burning of fossil fuels is not on the horizon.

            I don’t see space program people as being any more useful in resolving that. Probably the opposite, because they seem to think they can justify burning fossil fuels.

            They’re part of the people looking for the replacement of fossil fuels. A fairly big part in fact.

            What you mean is electricity generated by capturing solar energy, and we don’t actually need that to survive. If it were a choice between continuing emissions or giving up tech that came about via the space programs then we could still choose to stop emissions and we’d be ok.

            Well, a few of us would be but the majority of people would be wiped out pretty quick as a hell of a lot of stuff got taken away because we refused to use it because it came from the space program.

            I’m saying it’s insane to be putting effort into that instead of preventing the worst of climate change.

            Which just proves your ignorance about economics.

            We can, and should, do both especially considering that the space program is likely to help doing that “preventing the worst of climate change”.

            • weka 9.3.2.2.2.1
              7 February 2018 at 3:46 pm

              “It’s not ‘growth’ per se that drives increased fossil fuel use. It’s the demand for energy a lot of which is used to power transport:”

              Reductionist thinking thinks climate change = carbon emissions, therefore reduce carbon emissions and everything will be alright (ish). We need systems thinking that sees the connections between growth, climate change, resource depletion, the take-make-waste economy, and the ignoring of natural systems particularly biological ones. Climate change can’t be solved without paradigm change. I’m pointing to the paradigms at play where.

              “Personal cars are a major part of the problem.”

              Obviously.

              “They’re part of the people looking for the replacement of fossil fuels. A fairly big part in fact.”

              Irrespective of whether we find a replacement or not, we have to power down. Powering up is antithetical to solving climate change. Paradigms and system thinking again.

              “Well, a few of us would be but the majority of people would be wiped out pretty quick as a hell of a lot of stuff got taken away because we refused to use it because it came from the space program.”

              again, obviously, if we gave it up in the blink of an eye. But if you read my comment in the context of the conversation with McFlock, you will see I am talking about something else, and making a different point.

              “Which just proves your ignorance about economics.

              We can, and should, do both especially considering that the space program is likely to help doing that “preventing the worst of climate change”.”

              Asserting something doesn’t make it true. You believe in the space program and what sustainability expert David Holmgren calls techno-explosion with some components of techno-stability. I believe in the power down. I’ve been making a case for why the power down is necessary, you’ve just asserted that techno will save us, but you haven’t made the case.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                7 February 2018 at 4:47 pm

                Reductionist thinking thinks climate change = carbon emissions, therefore reduce carbon emissions and everything will be alright (ish).

                Climate change is primarily driven by carbon emissions. There are other GHGs but they’re a small part of our emissions.

                We need systems thinking that sees the connections between growth, climate change, resource depletion, the take-make-waste economy, and the ignoring of natural systems particularly biological ones. Climate change can’t be solved without paradigm change.

                Which is all a load of bollocks. There is a connection between growth and resource depletion. Using more resources must inevitably result in resource depletion.

                There isn’t necessarily a connection between growth and climate change. We could still have growth while having declining GHG emissions.

                I’m pointing to the paradigms at play where.

                You’re making assertions without any evidence or logic.

                Irrespective of whether we find a replacement or not, we have to power down.

                If we find a replacement then we obviously don’t need to power down. That’s basically what finding a replacement for fossil fuels and their emissions means.

                Asserting something doesn’t make it true.

                True. And you make lots of assertions that are downright wrong, that don’t even have a logical connection.

                You believe in the space program and what sustainability expert David Holmgren calls techno-explosion with some components of techno-stability.

                No I don’t.

                I believe in reality.

                I’ve been making a case for why the power down is necessary, you’ve just asserted that techno will save us, but you haven’t made the case.

                No, you’ve been talking BS and I didn’t say that technology will save us. I said it has a role in doing so. A role in stopping the continued burning of fossil fuels and reducing other GHG emissions.

                It will be politics that will save us but that requires that we all get involved and stop the politicians catering to the 1%.

          • greywarshark 9.3.2.2.3
            8 February 2018 at 10:20 am

            weka says
            “I’m not saying the space development doesn’t do good or useful things. I’m saying it’s insane to be putting effort into that instead of preventing the worst of climate change”

            +1000 to that.

            And the cost-benefit calculation of those good things we now have? The billions spent that have added to climate change, and still we are pouring money into the sky and space.

            We are curious, clever children at heart; we have dilemmas that are very hard which we need to deal with hre and now on earth but space is so fascinating – look how I can pay table tennis with a drop of water in a weightless environment and look at all those flames when our space vehicle launches and how cleverly we do everything, except for mucking up, rare though, with a D or O ring. Very sad, most unfortunate. But it’s just amazing being able to control a vehicle on …(name your planet) from earth. Beats radio-controlled car racing on Sundays.

  10. savenz 10
    7 February 2018 at 10:14 am

    Sounds like HOP prices are increasing. AT also takes the lions share of Aucklander’s rates too. Rolling in cash but still can’t seem to run or build a world class service and no doubt complaining how they need more money.

    It costs about $20 for 1 adult and 2 kids to go around 12km return and you have to catch 2 buses to reach your destination depending on where you are in Auckland, so generally takes nearly 1 hour when you can drive it for about $2 and it takes 10 minutes, so that’s part of the problem.

    You also need to go through a huge paper rigmarole to get a child HOP so again totally thinking of their customers as usual (NOT).

    Someone told me it was costing $70 per week to take public transport from Huapai in West Auckland to central Auckland, plus they had to get their elderly mother to get up at 6am and drive them to the station and pick them up. In the end they moved closer in, (another reason why the housing crisis will not abate as people can’t get back to their jobs if they move further out as limited and inconvenient transport options).

    Not only that but the ancient buses that are generally empty of patrons (see above reason) amble along 25km under the speed limits on the open road, causing major delays and productivity loss for everybody else.

    People might tolerate an expensive service if it was convenient, but often the AT service is both inconvenient and expensive.

    • Draco T Bastard 10.1
      7 February 2018 at 10:59 am

      Sounds like HOP prices are increasing.

      Yep. It’s called inflation.

      AT also takes the lions share of Aucklander’s rates too.

      [Citation Needed]

      Rolling in cash but still can’t seem to run or build a world class service and no doubt complaining how they need more money.

      Actually, they’re doing pretty well at getting public transport up to first class standards. The real problem was that the National government stood in the way and demanded more roads instead.

      It costs about $20 for 1 adult and 2 kids to go around 12km return and you have to catch 2 buses to reach your destination depending on where you are in Auckland, so generally takes nearly 1 hour when you can drive it for about $2 and it takes 10 minutes, so that’s part of the problem.

      Proof that you do not understand economics and the true costs of cars.

      1. You actually have to buy the car
      2. You have to maintain the car
      3. You have to fuel it up
      4. You have to pay insurance
      5. That time you’re driving is a loss of time as you could be doing something far more productive

      Now multiply all that by hundreds of thousands just in Auckland. And that’s just the driver.

      Cars are expensive.

      Our public transport could be and should be better but the reason why it’s so bad is due to decades of under-funding and lack of development so that car manufacturers and other services could make a profit and keep employment higher than it would be. Most of the gas stations would simply not exist. Same would apply to mechanics and panel beaters.

      Getting rid of cars would free up huge numbers of capable people to do something else. Nurses, doctors, builders, teachers – the list goes on. All of which we need more than mechanics and service station attendants.

      Cars are expensive.

      Then there’s the 400+ people who die prematurely every year due to the pollution of the cars.

      Cars are expensive.

      Someone told me it was costing $70 per week to take public transport from Huapai in West Auckland to central Auckland, plus they had to get their elderly mother to get up at 6am and drive them to the station and pick them up. In the end they moved closer in, (another reason why the housing crisis will not abate as people can’t get back to their jobs if they move further out as limited and inconvenient transport options).

      Better transport won’t actually make that any better. The only thing that will is high-rise apartments.

      Not only that but the ancient buses that are generally empty of patrons (see above reason) amble along 25km under the speed limits on the open road, causing major delays and productivity loss for everybody else.

      No, they amble along at their speed limit which is 90km/h on the motorway.

      And those people in the cars are what’s causing the traffic jams and the productivity loss. They’re the ones taking up the roads and losing productivity by driving.

      People might tolerate an expensive service if it was convenient, but often the AT service is both inconvenient and expensive.

      One wonders why people drive then. It’s expensive and inconvenient.

      Meanwhile, public transport is getting better and more and more people use it:

      Auckland’s annual public transport usage is continuing to soar with the latest figures showing a total of 81.2 million passenger trips in the past year – an increase of 8.1 per cent.

      Mayor Len Brown says it’s especially pleasing to see rail patronage increasing by 22.6 per cent as Auckland prepares for the historic start of work on the City Rail Link (CRL).

      Rail services totalled 15.1 million trips for the 12 months to November 2015.

      Would be nice to have more recent figures but I couldn’t find them.

      • Ad 10.1.1
        7 February 2018 at 11:14 am

        The Greater Auckland site reports on them monthly.

      • savenz 10.1.2
        7 February 2018 at 11:46 am

        Auckland ratepayers pay more than 50% of the $1,324,000,000 operating spend of the 2017 – 2018 year for transport.

        I’m not sure that figure includes the new transport levy or a proposed petrol tax or the new price increases for users. (I think not).

        Source of that figure is the current rates levy!

        If AT have all these extra journeys they are providing it’s not showing up in the costs to ratepayers or reducing the prices for transport. Maybe freebies on the Gold card!

        As for thinking Auckland has world class transport, pleeeze, I’ve lived in the EU, Asia and Africa – NZ is one of the worst places for public transport and very expensive to the cost of wages – the only worst place for public transport, I’ve even been to, is Fiji.

        In my view Aucklander’s are being ripped off and the COO structures are not working! More than 1 billion a year for AT shit service and their propaganda about how great they are!

        The chairman of AT doesn’t even write his own preamble on the budget that’s signed off by him – that’s how disinterested and incompetent and what a shitty organisation they are.

        • ropata 10.1.2.1
          7 February 2018 at 12:09 pm

          Just wait until March madness this year, all the public transport will be running at 100%+

          BTW there is a massive project underway to unlock the rail network, but you probably haven’t heard of it as you’re doing an ostrich impression.

          • savenz 10.1.2.1.1
            7 February 2018 at 2:10 pm

            ….massive project underway to unlock the rail network… yawn somehow the Brits managed an underground in the 1863 and its still used by over 1 billion passengers a year… but hey in Auckland we are supposed to be excited by the prospect of EVENTUALLY and (probably not before a maned Mars landing) that the execs at AT and NZ transport will get something fit for purpose going.

            Maybe if there were less excuses about why they can’t get it going, propaganda about how good they are and less about how much extra money they need it could be done. Having one track into Britomart or what ever the hell the dumbos did there, might be an inkling of the lack of size of the brains on our public transport system or the chairman apparently doesn’t write his own reports on his own budget he signs off.

      • Ad 10.1.3
        7 February 2018 at 12:41 pm

        Graph for Auckland Transport taking almost half of rates funding:

        http://temp.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/Plans/LongTermPlan/VolumeOne/section_1341865502987.html

      • faroutdude 10.1.4
        7 February 2018 at 1:18 pm

        The great thing about Trains & buses is that it gives one a captive audience – you can dictate where they travel to & from & how long it will take, then broadcast propaganda about Dear Leader, Civics, Te Reo, the horrors of Capitalism, etc etc.
        Then I guess if you get 1000’s of people’s daily existence susceptible to the whims & demands of the Train & Bus Drivers Union you will have all kinds of power.

        • savenz 10.1.4.1
          7 February 2018 at 6:51 pm

          Good idea of selling to a captive audience, if they got Skycity on board with gambling on trains, the powers that be would make it happen. That’s the sad state of our elected officials. If it’s pointless or bad for society, it happens. If not, then just wait and wait and wait… and then some pathetic offering appears.

          • greywarshark 10.1.4.1.1
            8 February 2018 at 11:37 am

            I note the replies to you savenz tend to the ideal – we shouldn’t have cars, or to educate you on the overall long-term cost of transport to you on an amortised basis, or how pleased you should feel knowing that rail is being built because it will be so much better then, when you need to travel now and your present cost is $x and it will take xtime.

            Just listening or reading about how things are for people is good stuff that we need to hear to understand the present state of play. It is interesting and important that we know that change is happening…sometime soon. But today this is how it is for an ordinary person. Let’s not dismiss ourselves as ordinary persons with a life and a story and not beat people over the head with unrealised facts, future plans yet to emerge and serve.

    • McFlock 11.1
      7 February 2018 at 11:07 am

      Fair point.
      Trump’s likely to get away with it, no matter the extent of his involvement in the collusion others have already admitted.

  12. Ad 12
    7 February 2018 at 11:13 am

    Lovely article this morning in The Guardian on the necessity of both radical and reforming arms of the feminist movement to achieve success. In this case, the right for women to vote, on its 1918 centenary this year:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/06/feminism-women-vote-suffragette-democracy-protests-political-theatre

    This approach doesn’t apply everywhere, but a centennary is a good point for reflection.

  13. The Chairman 13
    7 February 2018 at 11:23 am

    “A diet of dead rats would make the Greens sicken and die”

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/101208963/a-diet-of-dead-rats-would-make-the-greens-sicken-and-die

    Despite having ministerial positions and largely outlining what they plan to achieve this term (20 policy goals) the latest poll has the Greens going downwards since the election.

    And with nothing more up their sleeves, coupled with supporter disappointment of swallowing some dead rats along the way, there is a real chance they won’t make the 5% threshold come next election.

    Meanwhile, despite securing a number of wins, New Zealand First is floundering and their support of the TPP could very well be the last nail in their coffin.

    Therefore, if Labour want friends next election, Labour needs to consider giving the Greens a little win (like lifting the incomes of beneficiaries, whether through a Christmas bonus, core benefit increase or extended and larger energy payment) to appease their activist base.

    Something which Labour should keep in mind, unless they think they can win the next election alone.

    • McFlock 13.1
      7 February 2018 at 11:37 am

      Firstly, polls this far out from an election are worse than useless, because they encourage idiots to make pointless declamations based on little more than tea leaves.

      Secondly, Labour don’t need you to teach them how to suck eggs. Unlike the nats, they know how to work with partners. The wins the Greens and NZ1 will get over the next 2.5yrs won’t be “given” to them by Labour, those wins will be earned by the coalition partners in their own right.

      • The Chairman 13.1.1
        7 February 2018 at 11:49 am

        Yes, it early days. However for the reasons I outlined above, I can’t see things improving for the Greens or NZF without them securing significant wins.

        And as Labour has the majority vote, any wins the Greens or NZF obtain requires Labour’s blessing.

        • McFlock 13.1.1.1
          7 February 2018 at 12:04 pm

          So political parties that achieve nothing over an electoral term will be punished in the election booths? A profound observation that has hitherto occurred to precisely nobody. /sarc

          • The Chairman 13.1.1.1.1
            7 February 2018 at 12:34 pm

            Lets look at the Greens. They won ministerial positions and have their 20 policy goals, yet instead of going up (which one would assume) they slipped downwards.

            Therefore, if the Greens think that now they have their ministerial positions and 20 policy goals they can sleepwalk their way to the next election, they are going to get a shock.

            Moreover, as popular as Davidson is with the party’s activist base, merely making her co leader won’t be enough. They need a significant policy win to appease the left within.

            I can see the Greens easily following Labour’s path of leadership changes and party disunity.

            • AB 13.1.1.1.1.1
              7 February 2018 at 12:55 pm

              “Lets look at the Greens”
              Let’s not. I am going to hang out the washing, feeling mildly happy that we have a government that seems to be populated by normal people. I don’t expect too much from them, but it feels better than a government of vulgar, greedy, self-serving philistines.

              • The Chairman …
                7 February 2018 at 1:35 pm

                “Let’s not. I am going to hang out the washing, feeling mildly happy that we have a government that seems to be populated by normal people.”

                Yes, we changed the Government, but we still have the TPP. Rather weak employment reforms. An almost useless cannabis reform. A foreign investment ban with holes so large that our largest foreign investor is exempt. No date set for a living wage.

                I can go on, but I think you can get the drift.

            • McFlock 13.1.1.1.1.2
              7 February 2018 at 1:17 pm

              You can see whatever you want to see, that much is obvious.

              • The Chairman …
                7 February 2018 at 1:27 pm

                What scares me is that I’m so often right.

                • McFlock …
                  7 February 2018 at 1:33 pm

                  Well, given that you usually restrict yourself to stating the bleeding obvious in the most condescendingly insulting way possible, you shouldn’t be overy surprised.

                  But I’m sure that your effort today has made both NZ1 and the Greens finally realise that in order to win votes they’ll need to make some policy advances sometime in the next two years, rather than their previous intention to merely sit on their arses and do nothing.

                  Once again, your outstanding advice (offered for free, no less) has singlehandedly rescued the left and its electoral partners from oblivion 🙄

                  • The Chairman …
                    7 February 2018 at 2:04 pm

                    “But I’m sure that your effort today has made both NZ1 and the Greens finally realise that in order to win votes they’ll need to make some policy advances sometime in the next two years, rather than their previous intention to merely sit on their arses and do nothing.”

                    As far as NZF are concerned, their support of the TPP will be externally hard to overcome, hence it’s probably already all over for them.

                    There is no win big enough for them to come back from this.

                    And as for the Greens, apart from their 20 policy goals and new co leader, it seems that fluffing around making corny videos etc is all they plan to do. Hence, they need this nudge. As, evidently, their current actions show no signs of them being aware of this need.

                    Moreover, they need Labour’s blessing, and that won’t come willingly. Thus, this is part of the public pressure we require to put on them.

                    Your attempt to weaken it undermines it, so who’s side are you on?

                    • McFlock …
                      7 February 2018 at 2:41 pm

                      How many times has NZ1 been predicted to die? One more announcement from you won’t make a difference.

                      It’s also really impressive the way you can convince yourself that your “nudge” is needed after you rule out their entire list of policy commitments.

                      Nobody needs anyone else’s “blessing”. That’s what you refuse to understand. Labour is not the overlord, throwing bones of policy achievement to the peasants. They are all equals.

                      The underlying strength of the coalition is respect, not power. As soon as you figure that one out, all your concerns will disappear into nothingness – which might be why it’s lost on you…

                  • The Chairman …
                    7 February 2018 at 2:47 pm

                    As for stating the obvious, the response to Metiria coming out was blatantly obvious to foresee, yet the Greens failed to see it coming.

                    So when it comes to the obvious, those pulling the strings in the Greens seem to be a little blind.

                  • The Chairman …
                    7 February 2018 at 3:06 pm

                    “How many times has NZ1 been predicted to die?”
                     
                    How many times has NZF supported the TPP? This is huge with widespread and long lasting ramifications, thus this time it’s different.

                    NZF has become TPP first. And that’s gone down like a cup of cold sick.

                    I didn’t rule out their entire list of policy commitments, I said apart from them.

                    “They are all equals.”

                    Not when it comes to voting on policy

                    “The underlying strength of the coalition is respect “

                    Respect didn’t get us decent cannabis reform, core benefit increases nor did it stop the TPP. Hence, the concerns remain.

                    • McFlock …
                      7 February 2018 at 3:13 pm

                      Respect got them put up or argued against. Respect allowed disagreement.

                      Nice line about TPP first. Did you get it from farrar, or will we merely be seeing it there shortly?

                  • The Chairman …
                    7 February 2018 at 3:12 pm

                    “Oh, they saw it.”

                    No, they didn’t. As shown by their preparedness and how quick Metiria through in the towel. Despite having almost full party support.

            • patricia bremner 13.1.1.1.1.3
              7 February 2018 at 3:41 pm

              National is on the cusp of Leadership change …. probably very undemocratic.

              The Greens are electing a representative female co-leader, democratically.

              There is no Green disunity. But there are bound to be factions in National.

              Two years nine months, …… keep your breath to cool your porridge.

              • Chuck …
                7 February 2018 at 4:59 pm

                “National is on the cusp of Leadership change …. probably very undemocratic.”

                A ballot of the National party caucus elects a new leader.

                “There is no Green disunity. But there are bound to be factions in National.”

                Not sure James Shaw has the same confidence as you do…

                “Shaw said all candidates would be told it had to be a “clean campaign” although they would not have to sign a code of conduct, something Labour Party leadership contenders have done in the past.
                Shaw said there was a risk of ructions in the party but a clean campaign would help prevent that.”

                http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11982510

      • The Chairman 13.1.2
        7 February 2018 at 11:50 am

        By the way, every NZF supporter I’ve spoken to are totally gutted with Winston’s support of the TPP and will no longer vote for them.

        Not to mention the disappointment surrounding their cannabis reform stance.

        • McFlock 13.1.2.1
          7 February 2018 at 12:02 pm

          Yes, I’m sure so many people spontaneously offer you their opinions and voting intention that you could start your own political market research consultancy. /sarc

          • The Chairman 13.1.2.1.1
            7 February 2018 at 12:09 pm

            I’m a political junkie, hence talk politics with everyone I meet and associate with, even with the cold callers that knock on my door.

        • savenz 13.1.2.2
          7 February 2018 at 12:04 pm

          Yep, NZ First surprisingly a sell out on TPP. They might be gone. Bad decision.

          • The Chairman 13.1.2.2.1
            7 February 2018 at 12:14 pm

            From what I can gather, it will be the death of them.

            When I first heard the news, the first thing that came to mind is Winston must be planning on standing down as I don’t see them coming back from that and I think Winston knows it. Hence, I suspect he’s going to call it a day at the end of this term.

      • Puckish Rogue 13.1.3
        7 February 2018 at 11:55 am

        “Unlike the nats, they know how to work with partners.”

        Under MMP National and Labour have both “won” four times each so yes National do know how to work with parties and know how to win under MMP

        • McFlock 13.1.3.1
          7 February 2018 at 12:00 pm

          No, “winning” isn’t “working with partners”.

          National know how to work with sycophants and sellouts. They don’t know how to work with partners.

          • Puckish Rogue 13.1.3.1.1
            7 February 2018 at 12:12 pm

            The problem is we won’t how true that is of Labour as well until the next election

            • Stuart Munro 13.1.3.1.1.1
              7 February 2018 at 12:19 pm

              Though that’s true, they’ll have their work cut out to mess up their partners as thoroughly as the Gnats messed up the Maori Party.

              • Puckish Rogue …
                7 February 2018 at 12:24 pm

                Maybe but currently NZFirst are below the threshold and i don’t see them improving (a lot of the farmers won’t forget) and the Greens are at 6% and seem to be shedding their principles quicker than you can say government pension

                I expect the Greens to be back but only at around the number they have now and I don’t expect Winston to be back

                • Stuart Munro …
                  7 February 2018 at 12:55 pm

                  You’d be sledging the Greens whatever they did – you’d like nothing better than for them to abandon their principles.

                  But it’s true that Labour’s PR shadow won’t win them anything from their base. They need a few successes – rivers are the obvious one.

                  TPP and immigration and foreign land sales will end NZF if they roll over for it. We’ll see as we leave the silly season whether they’ll make a go of it.

                  • Puckish Rogue …
                    7 February 2018 at 12:58 pm

                    “You’d be sledging the Greens whatever they did – you’d like nothing better than for them to abandon their principles.”

                    I’m sledging them because they act like they have the moral high ground but the first sniff of power and they abandon their principles

                    “TPP and immigration and foreign land sales will end NZF if they roll over for it. We’ll see as we leave the silly season whether they’ll make a go of it.”

                    Sure will

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      7 February 2018 at 1:18 pm

                      We don’t know they’ve abandoned their principles PR, they may be pursuing them by means other than media grandstanding. We’ll have some idea in the next few months.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      7 February 2018 at 1:29 pm

                      “We don’t know they’ve abandoned their principles PR, they may be pursuing them by means other than media grandstanding. We’ll have some idea in the next few months.”

                      The problem is that all of us can make grand predictions but it generally takes months or years to see if it comes to pass

                      Still fun though

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      7 February 2018 at 2:47 pm

                      Yup – the far right idea of ‘fun’ – rivers that are toxic sumps, our government being sued under ISDS, unrestrained dairy development and jobs for sleazy assholes like those employed by CERA. As close to treason as makes no difference.

                    • weka …
                      7 February 2018 at 3:10 pm

                      “I’m sledging them because they act like they have the moral high ground but the first sniff of power and they abandon their principles”

                      really? What principles have they abandoned exactly?

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      7 February 2018 at 3:26 pm

                      Would have thought they would have rejected the waka jumping bill and the Kermadecs might have been worth fighting for

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      7 February 2018 at 5:23 pm

                      You need some new lies. Is Farrar getting lazy or something?

                      …an agreement has been reached between Labour, NZ First and the Greens individually that satisfies Green support for the protection of the Kermadec’s pristine waters, while assuring NZ First that iwi and commercial fishing rights will be taken into account.

                      Pretty sure you’ve had your face rubbed in this before.

                    • Chuck …
                      7 February 2018 at 6:01 pm

                      “while assuring NZ First that iwi and commercial fishing rights will be taken into account.”

                      Should read… while assuring NZ First political donors fishing rights will be taken into account.

                      🙂

                    • weka …
                      7 February 2018 at 6:46 pm

                      “Would have thought they would have rejected the waka jumping bill and the Kermadecs might have been worth fighting for”

                      What are the *principles they have abandoned? Be specific.

            • McFlock 13.1.3.1.1.2
              7 February 2018 at 12:25 pm

              They seem pretty good so far.

    • savenz 13.2
      7 February 2018 at 12:00 pm

      My view of Greens is that they have somehow fallen into a trap of certain individual politicians following their pet projects or experiences while the identity of the Green Party flounders.

      I’m not sure if dirty politics is at play and I think it would be super easy to have an undue influence and voting rights by members if a dirty organisation was inclined to wipe them out by becoming members on mass and voting in MP’s they know are polarising influences. Having newcomers being so high in the list and short on environmental credentials was very surprising.

      I don’t think the new idea that social causes and niche transport (trains for the shore) being the Green focus is resonating with the loyal environmental followers that have voted for them since Jeanette days.

      • The Chairman 13.2.1
        7 February 2018 at 12:04 pm

        Good points, savenz.

      • Puckish Rogue 13.2.2
        7 February 2018 at 12:20 pm

        Oh c’mon lets be real here, whatever is happening inside the Greens is probably* not due to Dirty Politics

        The MT clusterf**k was all down to MT, when the two traitors (Kennedy Graham and the other one) were removed their was jubilation all round, the Greens abandoning the Kermadecs and going with the waka jumping bill are all down to leadership of the Greens

        *Obviously I don’t know for certain but if someone could organise the downfall of the Greens to this extent without anyone finding out it’d be a miracle, as an example its generally agreed that Steven Joyce was behind the leaking of Winstons details yet that couldn’t be kept secret

          • Puckish Rogue 13.2.2.1.1
            7 February 2018 at 12:55 pm

            True that but again something that can’t be attributed to “Dirty Politics”

        • alwyn 13.2.2.2
          7 February 2018 at 3:02 pm

          “its generally agreed that Steven Joyce was behind the leaking of Winstons details “.
          Really? Pray tell. Just how big was your sample of people who “generally agree” and what party did they support?
          Personally, and I have had a number of Labour supporters agree, that it was a Green-supporting Public Servant in the department who was unhappy that Winston had attacked that Turei woman and was trying to retaliate.
          I originally thought it might have been Winston himself.
          We’ll never find out of course. Winston has dropped all his claims after all.

      • Stuart Munro 13.2.3
        7 February 2018 at 12:23 pm

        No, you’re reaching. Some soft support might not have been keen on Metiria’s stand but rail for the Orcs is long overdue. It’s true though that environmental progress is called for – river revival springs to mind.

      • weka 13.2.4
        7 February 2018 at 12:32 pm

        “I’m not sure if dirty politics is at play and I think it would be super easy to have an undue influence and voting rights by members if a dirty organisation was inclined to wipe them out by becoming members on mass and voting in MP’s they know are polarising influences.”

        Or, most Green Party members support the current direction of the party and the MPs.

        I think it would be obvious to long time members if there had been a mass influx of new members who skewed the organisation. If you look at the GP Charter and documents, it’s pretty hard to hijack it. I would guess it was designed that way.

        “Having newcomers being so high in the list and short on environmental credentials was very surprising.”

        Not really. It was intentional and the members knew that. The party is very sensible to be bringing new people up through the ranks.

        Not sure what you mean by short on environmental credentials. Have you looked at Shaw’s bio? If you mean that only people with backgrounds in specific environmental work should be MPs, then again, that’s not what the party or the membership wants.

        • savenz 13.2.4.1
          7 February 2018 at 2:44 pm

          @ Weka “Or, most Green Party members support the current direction of the party and the MPs”

          the problem is voting wise…. the Green voting public don’t seem convinced about the Green Party’s direction enough to vote for them.

          I have no problem with Shaw as I think he wants the best for the party and the country and can work with others and is genuinely nice guy with a decent amount of experience in the wider world. A plus in parliament.

          I get the sense that the “Green” mojo is gone for some reason, and that’s because too many new people in the party who have their own reasons for getting there and the messages are all over the place. Also if they start sneering at the middle class who vote for them while actually being middle class themselves trying to pretend to be poor, the message is not a genuine one. That’s also why the social messages just don’t come across well.

          Wanting more development for Auckland for example and blaming older folks for the housing crisis, does not sit with the environmental message of sustainability in the traditional sense.

          If you haven’t worked it out, the working poor and beneficiaries don’t seem to be interested in enough numbers to vote for the Green Party consistently or even vote at all.

          My guess is that it’s the more well heeled who can afford to vote Green and travel to a river or beach and afford organic produce that are their most loyal followers and they are probably older too, because they lived through Rogernomics and saw the effects, and that’s what makes them stick to the Greens. They probably own houses too, having bought them 30 years ago.

          But there was little in the last campaign that was aimed in that direction and the age and experiences of the Greens MP’s maybe no longer reflect their main voters.

          • Carolyn_Nth 13.2.4.1.1
            7 February 2018 at 8:12 pm

            My guess is that it’s the more well heeled who can afford to vote Green and travel to a river or beach and afford organic produce that are their most loyal followers and they are probably older too, because they lived through Rogernomics and saw the effects, and that’s what makes them stick to the Greens. They probably own houses too, having bought them 30 years ago.

            Wrong.

            here are the stats from the 2014 election:

            And the important graphs here.

            in the graph #1 = the average – below #1 = less likely; above = more likely.

            So, compared with the general population GP voters are
            more likely to work part time;
            more likely to be in a household where someone is a member of a union;
            50% above and below line where household income is lower than average; way more likely to be students;
            less likely to be male;
            less likely to own house or flat;
            less likely to be over 56yrs;
            less likely than average to be 18-29yrs, (but still that is more likely than being over 56yrs);

            Nats are way more likely to have household income above average; labour and NZ first are way more likely to have lower than average household income (but way more are over 56yrs);

            Green voters are split between a bit higher and a bit lower than average incomes – so somewhere in between Nats and Lab-NZF.

            GP voters are way more likely than the other 3 parties to have a uni education.

            NZF voters are way more likely to be male. Nat voters are least likely to have been to uni.

      • Ad 13.2.5
        7 February 2018 at 12:44 pm

        The Greens, as Mae West said, used to be snow white, but they drifted.

        Shaw is as solid as Goff, and just as uninspiring.

        They need some serious media airtime over two years to get towards 8% – and all of it has to be good.

        • AB 13.2.5.1
          7 February 2018 at 1:02 pm

          Don’t really agree. People will move to (or away) from the Greens based on what’s happening on the inside. Outside influences like media noise are less important imo

        • The Chairman 13.2.5.2
          7 February 2018 at 1:08 pm

          “They need some serious media airtime…”

          No, they need a significant policy win. Mere media airtime won’t cut it.

          Announcing benefit increases did wonders for them last time, hence this the area that will appease the left within, thus where they must secure a win.

        • McFlock 13.2.5.3
          7 February 2018 at 1:14 pm

          I think that the Greens are at the lower end of their natural polling level. They’re well placed to get advances on environmental concerns and some social policy. With two leaders complementing each other they’ll get under steam pretty soon.

          As you say, Shaw is solid. But the next coleader will probably be inspirational as well.

          I’m not sure about some of the internal ructions, probably blow-over from the divisions highlighted when two caucus members decided to quit. But I’m sure they’ve had ructions before, like most parties.

          NZ1 have more difficulty, but again they’ll be plugging their own regional development issues.

          • weka 13.2.5.3.1
            7 February 2018 at 2:12 pm

            Pretty much. The Greens have had this sorted for a while. Shaw is the suit who is building all those bridges within mainstream society that are needed for change. He’s also inspirational in areas that are important (e.g. the members. People like Ad who appear to have an anti-progressive agenda probably don’t bother to listen to Shaw on his own terms and so find mansplaining the Greens a useful strategy).

            Davidson would bring in the connections with other important parts of society – Māori, women, low income people, NGOs working the coal face etc.

            And beside them both are the rest of the MPs and the party structure. Davidson wasn’t out there on her own with the launch. Those people are building long term structures that will serve NZ and the Greens well irrespective of reckons about the vote at the next election.

            • veutoviper 13.2.5.3.1.1
              7 February 2018 at 2:32 pm

              Weka, I had a quick look at the Green Party website but could not find anything that stated what happens if there is only one nomination.

              As far as I am aware, there is only one to date, Marama Davidson, and nominations close on Friday. If only one, does that person automatically get the position, or does the nomination still go out for votes for or against?

              • The Chairman …
                7 February 2018 at 2:36 pm

                “If only one, does that person automatically get the position…”

                I certainly hope so. Then they can put all this to bed and get on with the real work that requires doing.

              • weka …
                7 February 2018 at 2:59 pm

                Afaik if there is only one nomination then they become the co-leader, but I’m not the best person to ask. I’ll check with some Greenies on twitter.

                • veutoviper …
                  7 February 2018 at 3:06 pm

                  Thanks – just curious so don’t go to any trouble. And no doubt it will be covered in media etc if there is only one nomination on Friday.

                  It just occurred to me in view of the Greens’ other voting etc procedures.

                  EDIT – I can actually see a lot of sense in the Co-Leader being none of the Green MPs with Ministerial etc responsibilities (or any of the newies) so from that perspective, Davidson’s being the only nomination would make good sense (but not my call as a non-Green member but still supportive,)

              • solkta …
                7 February 2018 at 8:58 pm

                “If only one, does that person automatically get the position, or does the nomination still go out for votes for or against?”

                Every candidate for every position in the green Party runs against Re-open Nominations. To be successful in the case of a single candidate the candidate must receive 75% of the vote. That is, the candidate (or candidates) is rejected if Re-open Nominations receives more than 25%.

                • veutoviper …
                  8 February 2018 at 9:44 am

                  Thanks solka. Excellent provisions IMHO, including as a protection etc for the sole candidate.

            • savenz 13.2.5.3.1.2
              7 February 2018 at 2:53 pm

              While I think Davidson is worthy of respect, I don’t share your views about how popular she will be for the public. I’d say her views would be ‘very challenging’ to the Green voter and similar to what happened with Metiria and potentially plummet the Green vote.

              My pick is Sage, because she’s the one who stands for conservation and can woo back the old supporters.

              But if there’s only 1 nomination, that’s also a bad sign of disorganisation within the Greens not having enough choice of candidates.

              • weka …
                7 February 2018 at 2:58 pm

                or they decided to conserve their current limited resources.

                “I don’t share your views about how popular she will be for the public”

                Not sure I said anything about popularity with the public.

                • savenz …
                  7 February 2018 at 3:55 pm

                  Well they should be choosing a leader that will ensure the survival of the Green Party and an increased vote, so I think that thinking about the public appeal of co leader should be an essential factor, especially when Greens have had some very rocky polls!

                  Maori have gone back to Labour and the amount of work it would take and the conflict that would bring to fight it out, especially being coalition partners is making a major tactical error… the same errors again and again including trying to get the youth vote by having younger MP’s is part of the problem.

                  Bernie Sanders and Corbyn are old and white but get the youth and black vote. Youth are not attracted by identity politics.

                  • weka …
                    7 February 2018 at 6:52 pm

                    So you think that Davidson as co-leader won’t help the survival of the party and that people won’t vote because of her? Nice reckon but not seeing much rationale. Afaik, the GP vote dropped last year because of Ardern’s rise, and because of the mess with the two rogue MPs (and probably because of the sustained attack on the GP).

                    “Bernie Sanders and Corbyn are old and white but get the youth and black vote. Youth are not attracted by identity politics.”

                    Are either of them in government? Both of those men support solidarity politics. We are not the US or the UK and have a different political landscape and political system.

                    Labour and the Greens don’t have to fight it out. Labour can get the centrist and swing voters, including NZF, and the Greens can get back their previous voters from Labour. Both can pick up some of the non-vote. It’s not rocket science, and it moves the Overton Window left. What you are suggesting will move the Greens to a more centrist position and cement NZ in centrist, neoliberal hell.

              • Puckish Rogue …
                7 February 2018 at 3:01 pm

                http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11989439

                “If they insist on a co-leader, of the three there is a clear winner: Julie Anne Genter.”

                “Genter, like James Shaw is likeable. I have called her my favourite Green. She didn’t like it for fear that my support tainted her prospects within the cloistered world of the tree hugger and snail lover.”

                • savenz …
                  7 February 2018 at 3:59 pm

                  Again, Julie Anne is respected for her transport ideas but I very much doubt she has popular appeal with New Zealander’s. Can anyone think of anything apart from transport that Julie Anne represents? I can’t.

                  • Antoine …
                    7 February 2018 at 4:20 pm

                    Women

                  • Anne …
                    7 February 2018 at 8:35 pm

                    I very much doubt she has popular appeal with New Zealander’s.

                    I think Julie-Anne Genter would be very popular with NZers for similar reasons to Jacinda Ardern. She is highly intelligent, outgoing and empathetic to a cross-section of NZers.

                    I have no quarrel with Marama Davidson, but Julie-Anne has more national (with a small ‘n’) political experience so maybe she should be given the co-leader mantle first and see how she goes.

                • Robert Guyton …
                  7 February 2018 at 4:25 pm

                  How can tree huggers and snail lovers be considered “cloistered”? Surely their love for the natural world must come from being in the …natural world!
                  Cloistered? Pffffffft!!

                • Muttonbird …
                  7 February 2018 at 4:25 pm

                  “Genter, like James Shaw is white. I have called her my favourite Green.” – Hosko

                  Fixed it for ya’!

              • Stuart Munro …
                7 February 2018 at 7:03 pm

                The Greens take representation seriously – hence the male and female co-leadership. If they didn’t choose Marama they’d have a conspicuous lack of Maori representation, especially since she didn’t get a cabinet role. Personally I think she’s an asset, the party’s appeal would be so much narrower without her.

          • The Chairman 13.2.5.3.2
            7 February 2018 at 2:33 pm

            “They’re well placed to get advances on environmental concerns and some social policy”

            Talk about stating the obvious.

            Most know they are well placed to get advances on environmental concerns and some social policy, but still, they’ve gone downwards. Hence, it’s not going to be enough to appease the left within like me.

  14. joe90 14
    7 February 2018 at 1:34 pm

    A pair of aviator shades and a chest resplendent – All Hail Grand Marshal Baby Fingers!.

    (like Bastille day, really?)

    President Trump’s vision of soldiers marching and tanks rolling down the boulevards of Washington is moving closer to reality in the Pentagon and White House, where officials say they have begun to plan a grand military parade later this year showcasing the might of America’s armed forces.

    […]

    The inspiration for Trump’s push is last year’s Bastille Day celebration in Paris, which the president attended as a guest of French President Emmanuel Macron. Trump was awestruck by the tableau of uniformed French troops marching down Avenue des Champs-Elysees with military tanks, armored vehicles, gun trucks and carriers — complete with fighter jets flying over the Arc de Triomphe and painting the sky with streaks of blue, white and red smoke for the colors of the French flag.

    Aboard Air Force One en route home from Paris last July, aides said Trump told them he was dazzled by the French display and said he wanted one at home.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trumps-marching-orders-to-the-pentagon-plan-a-grand-military-parade/2018/02/06/9e19ca88-0b55-11e8-8b0d-891602206fb7_story.html?utm_term=.a4d1c3794764

  15. Rosemary McDonald 15
    7 February 2018 at 2:21 pm

    Here’s that scary pile of plastic and rubbish washed out to sea by last week’s storm on the Coast…

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/349847/coasters-shift-thousands-of-plastic-bags

  16. Siobhan 16
    7 February 2018 at 3:58 pm

    “Kiwis will have to pay GST on internet shopping purchases they make from overseas, Revenue Minister Stuart Nash has confirmed.” , ‘Absolutely the right thing to do” November 15 2017

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/98894073/government-will-absolutely-ensure-gst-is-paid-on-internet-shopping-purchases

    Then today we get this

    “New legislation to expand GST to include all imports is off the table for this year, says Revenue Minister Stuart Nash.”

    Nor is he willing to confirm legislation for next year, but rest assured we “will be watching Australia very closely”.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11989621

    Poor Stuart, he should listen more carefully to the nuances of Robertsons statements..
    “Finance Minister Grant Robertson did not say whether the tax change was definitely a “happening thing” when asked later on Wednesday, indicating instead that it was still something that was being “investigated”, but agreed it had long been Labour policy.

    • Muttonbird 16.1
      7 February 2018 at 4:50 pm

      My theory is that they are quietly honouring their statement that ‘no new taxes will be introduced before 2020’. The seeming postponement of the tourist tax is an example, possibly.

      A very honourable thing to do (which was totally beyond the last government of course) even though they also said urgency is required in some areas.

      If true, I’m not sure why they don’t just say it and put the accusations of u-turning to bed.

  17. Muttonbird 17
    7 February 2018 at 4:40 pm

    Bob Jones’ racism is too much for even the NBR this time. Says Maori wouldn’t exist without the British and they should be made to serve “us” (white people) on one day a year out of gratitude.

    This attitude of course reflects the thoughts of Don Brash, we know that, but also the idea of Bill English’s that te reo Maori is “someone else’s language”.

    Far from pretending to advocate for one New Zealand these destructive fossils are intent on division.

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/02/column-calling-for-maori-servitude-for-a-day-pulled-after-outrage.html

  18. CHCOff 18
    7 February 2018 at 4:42 pm

    The anti Waka jumping brigades are status quo con artists.

    Unless elected as an independent, the mps are voted for as a party by the public in one way or another.

    Part of that should involve the mps striving to make their party structures and organisations as accountable as possible to what they were voted for ( which admittedly these days can be often rather vague but all the same ). This should be part of the mps’ job description to their constituencies, creating transparency within their parties working for the voting public so the constituencies get as much bang as their buck as possible for what was said they were voting for.

    When these type of issues are blatantly betrayed by a party, then mps can resign, from their position and or the party. This is not the same as mps trying to set the agenda in internal power plays, as was the case with the recent spat of internal green party mps going into the election. No, it is due diligence after the fact, independent to what the party policy platform is and how it was formed.

    Now that this doesn’t happen so much, is more about the conceit about the political process to start with than it is about the democratic principles about the ‘waka jumping bill’ to end with.

    In my view, New Zealand society has just endured the most extremist & looting banana republic global communistic govt term in it’s history. This did not come about, nor exist, in a vacuum. Some realism about the place of the current coalition alternative govt is often missing, in being separate from complaints about things like the further directions and outcomes involved in the next step of free-trade’s global cartel monopolism in the guise of the TPP.

    While elections are spectator sports, a significant component to what constitutes good governance in a public’s interest, often is not when it comes to the specifics of gears and lever operation. What the govt is doing, yes.

    And what the govt was doing was saying they did not essentially feel good about the initial agreement. How a govt is doing this, is more a case of gears and lever operation, and that is to some level, related to the power wattage of the machinery it has the operation of to do so, and that is not the spectator sport part of the process. These two things may overlap in a continuum but they are not the same.

  19. Morrissey 19
    7 February 2018 at 4:56 pm

    Fed. Farmers” “head of animal welfare” claims, unconvincingly: “Our role is to show leadership and to educate our members”
    The Panel, RNZ National, Wednesday 7 February 2018
    Jim Mora, Penny Ashton, Patrick Morgan, Caitlin Cherry

    First item after the 4 o’clock news is the vibe around this exciting new prime minister, and the excellent showing she made at Waitangi. “By any measure,” said host Jim Mora, “Jacinda Ardern’s trip north went well.” The panelists agree that Jacinda Ardern and her government are in for a lot more positive coverage in future, and the prospects for the Nasty Party seem dim. Then Penny Ashton comes up with one of the best lines of the year so far….

    PENNY ASHTON: What is National going to do to counter her? I hear talk of Simon Bridges being in line for the leadership. I hope he does become leader, because he has all the charm of a school bully.

    Mora does not greet this apposite and humorous quip with one of his trademark guffaws. Nor does he mutter his habitual, insincere “That’s very funny!” Instead he falls into an icy silence, as he does whenever someone makes a remark even slightly critical of the National Party.

    After that awkward moment it was time to interview the first guest of the afternoon, billed as the “head of animal welfare” for Federated Farmers. His name is Chris Lewis and he apparently owns a farm “in the Waikato.” Mora insisted, at least three times, that Lewis is “one of the good farmers”. Maybe he is, but he didn’t seem to know much about the topic he was brought on to talk about: the suffering of dairy cows in the sun, with no trees to shelter under. Chris Lewis seemed to have no idea about anything. It was one of the most embarrassing performances in the history of The Panel—and that, as any long-time listener will attest, is very embarrassing indeed.

    JIM MORA: Yeah, but are shelter belts being removed for the ease of installing centre-pivots?

    CHRIS LEWIS: Ahhh, I don’t farm in Canterbury and I haven’t been there much lately. …. Our role is to show leadership and to educate our members….. But we need your listeners to tell us what are the best trees to plant…. [more confused blathering then, mercifully, he stops.]

    ….STUNNED SILENCE….

    PENNY ASHTON: I would have thought he’d be the expert on such things.
    MORA: No, he’s—
    PENNY ASHTON: He’s the head of animal welfare for Federated Farmers.
    MORA: No, he’s looking for arboreal advice.
    PENNY ASHTON: [clearly unimpressed] Hmmmmmm….

    Later, near the end of the program, Penny Ashton manages to run afoul of Jim Mora’s highly selective moral code again….

    PENNY ASHTON: He’s a disgusting piece of human garbage, Piers Morgan.
    MORA: We don’t need to go into that….

    For more dodgy dairying philosophers, click here….
    https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-17-12-2017/#comment-1427213

    • Anne 19.1
      7 February 2018 at 8:45 pm

      I like the sound of Peggy Ashton but it doesn’t look like she will be invited back again.

    • Anne 20.1
      7 February 2018 at 8:53 pm

      From the first link:

      The move was instantly criticised, with one veterans’ group comparing the president to “a wannabe banana republic strongman”.

      Since America under the stewardship of the Chump is descending into Banana Republic status, I guess such a parade is appropriate.

      Cartoonists all around the world would have a field day.

  21. greywarshark 21
    8 February 2018 at 11:38 am

    Thanks for keeping the blog going The Chairman and McFlock.

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