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Open mike 08/05/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, May 8th, 2019 - 222 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

222 comments on “Open mike 08/05/2019 ”

    • Jenny - How to get there? 1.1

      As useful as a rubber chicken

      With a 2050 Zero Carbon target but no definite actions to rein in green house gas emissions in the here and now, the Zero Carbon Act can only be described as as-per-rashun-nul

    • marty mars 1.2

      Russ the muss

      The Bill sends some good signals until you get to the section at the end that negates everything else you’ve just read. This section states there is no remedy or relief for failure to meet the 2050 target, meaning there’s no legal compulsion for anyone to take any notice.

      “The most anyone can do is get a court to make a ‘declaration’ that the Government isn’t achieving its climate goals, but this declaration doesn’t make the Government actually do anything.”

      Norman says without a legal mechanism to enforce targets, the only way the Bill could achieve its targets in practise is through public pressure.


      Seems like more rubbish to me. Talk about ineffectual leadership – our nuclear free moment? Our chance to make the changes needed? yeah nah the farmers are too strong, the bankers are too strong, we must increase everything… looks like we are going to have to do it ourselves because we will make the changes one way or the other.

      • Sacha 1.2.1

        Yep, our current political system has had its chance. People will need to seize power from them. Won't be pretty but then neither will doing nothing.

      • Rosemary McDonald 1.2.2

        …yeah nah the farmers are too strong, the bankers are too strong,

        And Winston has way, way too much power.

      • The Chairman 1.2.3

        @marty mars (1.2)

        Another day another Labour coalition disappointment.

        They are on a roll of late. CGT. Welfare Reform. Not so binding referendum and now this.

        Have I missed anything? Moreover, what’s next?

        • McFlock

          I'm sure you'll find something.

          • The Al1en

            But only to help 🙄

            • The Chairman

              @The Al1en

              Of course. They still have time to do more if they start acting now.

              And I'm sure you would agree, it's better we air our disappointment now rather than on election day.

              • McFlock

                Elections aren't about airing disappointment. They're about showing support. The difference is continually beyond you.

                You want stronger action? "Air your disappointment" about NZ1. Winston is calling the dilution of the climate policy a victory.

                • The Chairman

                  Elections aren't about airing disappointment. They're about showing support.

                  The point you totally missed is, to get and maintain support one can't afford to continue to disappoint. Thus, it's better for them to know they are letting us down now rather than us remaining silent and not supporting them come election day.

                  • McFlock

                    They're letting us down? What would you have them do – tell NZ1 to get stuffed and put forward climate change bills that will be opposed by NZ1 and national, even if NZ1 doesn't wind up the government?

                    NZ1 is going after National's regional support. They're doing this, in part, by watering down climate change action. The only way to get a better deal is to have national in the mid thirties with labgrn on mid-fifties together, and NZ1 not big enough to be kingmaker.

                    You think the response to that should be for lefties and greenies to not vote labgrn in 2020? Maybe the answer is to increase their support, rather than look for disappointment.

                    • The Al1en

                      You're wasting your time, McFlock. All this was put out the other day.

                      When you repeatedly tell someone the same thing over and over, and they just ignore it, it makes one question motive and intent. It's my opinion the chairman is completely disingenuous, and has an agenda working against the best interests of labour and the greens. It's got so bad, the number of anti posts outnumber those of the right wingers on here by far.

                      For a supposed lefty and green voter, that’s quite something.

                    • The Chairman

                      NZ1 is going after National's regional support. They're doing this, in part, by watering down climate change action. The only way to get a better deal is to have national in the mid thirties with labgrn on mid-fifties together, and NZ1 not big enough to be kingmaker.

                      Interesting logic you are laying out there. So your argument is Labour helping NZF gain National's regional support is going to help in Winston not being big enough to become Kingmaker.

                      Some would say Labour are extremely poor negotiators going off how much Winston seems to win. So perhaps they should start making improvements there.

                    • The Chairman

                      You think the response to that should be for lefties and greenies to not vote labgrn in 2020? Maybe the answer is to increase their support, rather than look for disappointment.

                      No. You missed the point again.

                      The response is for the left to air their grievances, thus not only making them (the Government) aware of the growing disappointment but also putting supporter pressure on them to up their game so as they can maintain and increase their support come next election.

                      At the rate of disappointment being created, some would think the Government are doing their best to turn off supporters.

                      Hell, it's getting that bad we now have left wing supporters talking of voting ACT.

                    • The Al1en

                      Hell, it's getting that bad we now have left wing supporters talking of voting ACT.

                      If a lefty is serious about voting act, then I'm pretty sure they're not a real lefty to begin with.

                    • As the Al1en said, we've been through this before. Labour and the Greens are in coalition with a conservative party. They don't have either the mandate from voters or the numbers in Parliament to implement the policies you're demanding. Your "disappointment" that they haven't used their minority of votes in Parliament to ram through a radical legislative programme simply defies logic. If you'd like Labour and Green to implement your preferred policies, help them get a majority in the House.

                    • The Al1en

                      Stunningly simple, isn't it?

                  • Incognito

                    At the rate of disappointment being created, some would think the Government are doing their best to turn off supporters.

                    Are you really saying that the Government is creating disappointment in you? Wow. Have you ever considered that you are the one who creates your own disappointment because you set your own expectations? Unrealistic expectations that are beyond your control so that you choose to feel disappointed? Don’t you ever get tired of playing the role of disappointed victim? Maybe you should choose a cause that is within your control, something that you can positively influence. Because your negativity is getting tedious.

                • The Chairman

                  You want stronger action? "Air your disappointment" about NZ1. Winston is calling the dilution of the climate policy a victory.

                  Diluting it a little is the least of the concern when the whole thing has no teeth.

            • The Chairman

              If a lefty is serious about voting act, then I'm pretty sure they're not a real lefty to begin with.

              Don't be to complacent in that sentiment. There is more than one and reasons why have be laid out.

              Moreover, things are getting bad out there. We have no right turn (who is definitely left wing) calling for voters to punish this Government. One can only assume at the polls.

              • The Al1en

                NRT sounds like a bit of a wanker if they're advocating labour/green voters do a 180 and punish the parties by all of us getting a nat/act government after the shit 9 years we had last time.

                I guess if you have an upper middle sized income to match your moral outrage it might make things a bit easier to live through.

          • The Chairman


            Disappointment is about all they seem to be delivering on of late.

            • McFlock

              It's all you're capable of detecting.

              • The Chairman

                From the growing amount of disappointment they are creating, I'm far from the only one detecting it. And by the way, while I may not comment on it, I detect far more than that.wink

        • James

          well they won’t commit to the 100k houses for kiwibuild today – so you can add that to your list.

          • Robert Guyton

            Eeyore's little helper!

            • cleangreen

              smileyYeah Robert wonder where he was maybe shooting ducks again?

          • The Chairman


            Labour – the party the left can count on to let them down.

            • Chris

              Labour is a promising party. It has delivered a lot of promises, and the Year of Delivery was no exception.

        • solkta

          Another day, another string of crap posts from a crap troll.

          • cleangreen

            smileytrue that solkta, they are like a broken record eh?

          • The Chairman

            If only I was a troll, you'd have nothing to worry about. Unfortunately, the disappointment is widespread.

            • solkta

              You are a troll, and there is little to worry about as most here know so.

              • The Chairman

                Yet, here you are perpetuating the libel. Doing your best to diminish any criticism. Of course you are not worried.laugh

                • marty mars

                  Yeah you are a troll of the worst sort – using misery to get your jollies mate – be disgusted with yourself please.

                  • The Chairman

                    I'm disgusted in you for not standing up more. Don't blame me for calling the Government out for its disappointments. I don't create them.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      The Chairman accepts no responsibility for what he says here, because…

                    • marty mars

                      yeah 'don't blame me for being a wanker' says the hairman

                    • solkta

                      Of course you create them, by piling bullshit on top of bullshit.

                    • Incognito

                      I don't create them.

                      Yes, you do, that is exactly what you’re doing! You choose how you feel and react and then spread your concern and disappointment as far and wide as you can and blame these feelings on the Government (Labour and the Greens, to be more precisely). And when we point this out to you, you say “it is not about me” or “there are many others”. I think the Government can and must do better but I resist jumping onto your bandwagon of boo-hoo-hoo. Own your own feelings, like an adult.

                    • The Chairman

                      What utter nonsense.

                      I have nothing to do with the Government's policy creation and what they decide to fall short on.

                      Of course, I'm expressing my opinion and highlighting these shortcomings – in the hope that the more the public roar the more chance the Government will take heed.

                      And of course, I'm far from the only one the Government has disappointed, as I've highlighted many times. And it's not us that are disappointed that are at fault for speaking out. It's the Government for falling short.

                      I think the Government can and must do better but I resist jumping onto your bandwagon of boo-hoo-hoo.

                      You and others holding back only signals to the Government that you are ok with their failings. And one can't expect more out of a Government if you don't let them know you want more. So stop resisting and get on board.

                    • Incognito

                      <Sigh> Problems with reading comprehension; you set yourself up for disappointment or exhilaration. I assume you have never done relationship counselling or similar.

                      You and others holding back only signals to the Government that you are ok with their failings.

                      False binary and a perfect illustration of your black & white thinking. Life is simple and complex problems can be broken down in small easy parts. I resist your binary and reductionist thinking because that is not reality. So, stop resisting, open your eyes, and see the World how it is and what it may become.

      • The Chairman 1.2.4

        @marty mars (1.2)

        If Russel stayed with the Greens perhaps he could have secured something with a little more teeth.

        Wonder how bad the blowback will be for the Greens?

        • Psycho Milt

          Please do elaborate on how Russel Norman could have secured a majority of votes in the House for something the majority of MPs would be opposed to?

          • Robert Guyton

            Elaborate? Elaborate?

            The Chairman doesn't elaborate, The Chairman seeks always to de-Labour-ate; that is, erode confidence in Labour. That's The Chairman's The Fear-man‘s mission.

          • The Chairman

            @Psycho Milt

            He’s more of a fighter than our Shaw. Hence, perhaps may have had a better fighting chance to secure more.

            Do you think the Greens will face much blowback from this disappointment? After all, it was their crown jewel.

            • Psycho Milt

              So getting parties to vote against their own interests in Parliament is just a matter of fighting harder? That's no doubt a comforting notion, but it bears no relationship to reality.

              Do you think the Greens will face much blowback from this disappointment?

              They'll certainly face a lot of propaganda from people who wish them harm, sure. Those of us who don't wish them harm will credit the party with a significant win in getting NZF to swallow this sizable dead rat.

              • The Chairman

                So getting parties to vote against their own interests in Parliament is just a matter of fighting harder?

                Seems to work for Winston. But of course, fighting harder is just a part of it.

                They'll certainly face a lot of propaganda from people who wish them harm, sure.

                So you think Greenpeace is spreading propaganda and wishes the Greens harm?

                Those of us who don't wish them harm will credit the party with a significant win in getting NZF to swallow this sizable dead rat.

                It was the Greens that had to swallow another (CGT, Welfare Reform, non binding referendum) dead rat. Open your eyes.

                • McFlock

                  NZ1 went with the migration pact. Residency requirement for superannuation is still ten years. Didn't even have an MJ policy, and here they are agreeing to implement the decision of the reeferendum.

                  Labour has a similar list.

                  So either it's a banquet of Discworld dwarves where everyone is tucking in to the ratburgers for the fun of it, or maybe compromise means a little bit of respectful give and take between partners.

                  • The Chairman

                    Of course Winston isn't winning them all but they don't say he's calling the shots for nothing. wink

              • The Chairman

                They say it because they're right-wing propagandists trying to damage Labour and Green's re-election chances.

                Indeed. Nevertheless, propaganda tends to have an element of truth. And clearly Winston is doing ok out of the negotiations.

                • Of course it has an element of truth. Peters has indeed done OK out of coalition negotiations, because that's in the nature of coalition government. Propaganda takes that element of truth and deploys it in support of a propaganda lie, eg " they don't say he's calling the shots for nothing."

                  The lie is quickly revealed if you look at how it's been deployed the opposite way. Peters has also done badly out of coalition negotiations, because that's in the nature of coalition government – for instance, he's had to accept the ban on future oil and gas exploration, the UN compact on migration, social welfare reform and now zero-carbon goals. His party's acceptance of the first two in particular led to loud calls by propagandists of Peters being Ardern's lapdog. I wouldn't be surprised if it were the same propagandists peddling both lies.

                  • The Chairman

                    Peters has indeed done OK out of coalition negotiations…

                    Yes, that's the element of truth and why they say he's calling the shots.

                    He's had to accept the ban on future oil and gas exploration, the UN compact on migration, social welfare reform and now zero-carbon goals.

                    The ban on future oil and gas exploration isn't what is was cranked up to be, no doubt due to Winston. Welfare reform fell far short and it's yet to be shown he opposes it. And zero carbon has got no teeth. Moreover, was apparently diluted by Winston.

        • marty mars

          I know how bad the blowfly is – norman is a dick but greenpeace are cool. All plans and ideals get fucked when reality hits and only the goopless get surprised – grow up and do something worthwhile while you're still alive chair.

          • Robert Guyton

            … grow up and do something worthwhile while you're still alive, Chair…

            Wise words.

          • The Chairman

            All plans and ideals get fucked when reality hits

            Indeed. And the reality is the Greens (at this stage) have no backbone. And I would also question their competence going off their track record. Not really made of the right stuff to win negotiations.

            • Robert Guyton

              The Chairman is a blanket so wet you could fill him with gators and name him "Florida".

              • Incognito

                Oh no! He might attract a Great Swamp Drainer who will transform him into a National Golf Club. I thought we had enough of nine years of John Key playing golf while New Zealand society was sinking deeper away into the mud after selling off the more valuable bits (no, not the swamp Kauri).

            • marty mars

              wtf would you know well poisoner – go troll off

  1. WeTheBleeple 2

    What is this 'loose leaf marijuana' Mark Mitchell keeps talking about. It's like he's got a cue card somewhere to outline 'his' stance on cannabis. This is language nobody ever uses thus it came out of a right wing think-tank.

    The Mitchell's need think tanks desperately, to give the illusion of thought.

    Mark Mitchell – the loose leaf politician.

    • Cinny 2.1

      mark cabbage mitchell

    • solkta 2.2

      Yeh, like if they are only going to legalise cabbage then what's the point.

      This phrase did get thrown around by Nact when talking about medical use. It could be that he is using an old cue card.

      • Cinny 2.2.1

        Speaking of an old cue card… he also said he was too scared to try it for fear of the police… typical old school scare tactics, which do not work since the majority of kiwi's have tried cannabis.

        • Anne

          No-one should ever forget how Mark Mitchell came to be a National MP in the first place. He hired Simon Lusk and, with Cameron Slater's help, they got rid of the front runner for the Rodney electorate and Mitchell moved in to take the candidacy. Dirty Politics at a local level.


          “In 2014, Nicky Hager’s book Dirty Politics presented evidence which suggested that Mitchell had hired political strategist Simon Lusk during the National Party selection process for the Rodney electorate. Lusk appeared to have collaborated with blogger Cameron Slater to discredit Mitchell’s opponents, particularly Brent Robinson. Mitchell strongly denies ever paying Lusk or Slater.[9]”

          Of course he lied. He’s a born liar.

          • marty mars

            yep mark the cabbage is the worst of a bad bunch. Like a coldslaw he keeps coming back only to show once again how unfit for any leadership position he is. Sad little cabbage.

          • Anne

            I don't like this new comment formatting.

            How does one blockquote or use italics when editing?

            • greywarshark

              You go back to the old system – is it http it's called?

              <i> <blockquote> with the forward slash over when you finish the format.

            • lprent

              You write the text

              There are many ways. But the way that I do it is to use the keyboard to select what I want to quote (using shift + movement keys) then push the Double Quote button in the button bar.

              • Shift + (Left | Right) : character at a time
              • Shift + (Up | Down) : line at a time
              • Shift + Ctrl + (Left | Right) : word at time
              • Shift + End : from current position to end of line
              • Shift + Home : from current position to start of line
              • Shift + Ctrl + Home : from current position to start of edit.
              • Shift + Ctrl + End : from current position to end of edit.


        • Kevin

          Too scared to smoke a joint but no problem being hired as a contract killer.

    • Chris T 2.3

      Exactly what it says

      Loose leave weed.

      What you roll a joint with

      Think pouch of tobacco but it is weed

      • WeTheBleeple 2.3.1

        Chris, you just sound as stupid as Mitchell. Nobody rolls up loose leaf unless they're kids or stoners who've run out of the stuff they actually smoke.

        This shows that the Mitchells of the world have done no learning yet much posturing as opposition to the matter. Really shitty service for tax dollars having clueless opposition.

      • solkta 2.3.2

        If you are smoking joints of leaf then you have my sympathy. Good for giving up cigarettes but that's about it.

        Perhaps this is why so many MPs said they didn't like it or it didn't do anything for them?

      • Cinny 2.3.3

        Loose leaf weed aka cabbage (cannabis leaf) is usually used for cooking. The flowers of the plant are what is typically smoked, such flowers are dense and sticky and need breaking up, they are never ever loose.

    • Sacha 2.4

      He's distinguishing from those marijuana teabags Nat voters are more used to.

    • mauī 2.5

      Whatever you do, don't mention Gummi Bears.

    • millsy 2.6

      Mark Mitchell's aspiration for NZ comes from watching too much 80's dystopian sci-fi movies. Oh sorry, that is most of today's right wing.

  2. Adrian Thornton 3


    May 7, 2019

    Failed ‘Coup’ a Fake Corporate News Story Designed to Trick Venezuelan Soldiers—and US (and NZ) Public

    "After days of breathless reporting in the US media about public and military support for Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro collapsing, and about an April 30 coup by presidential poseur Juan Guaidó, we now know the truth: The whole thing was a fraud, staged at the instigation of Washington in hopes that the Venezuelan people and rank-and-file troops would fall for the trick and think an actual coup was underway. "


    Once Again, Mainstream Media Get It Wrong on Venezuela

    The Nation

    May 2, 2019

    "Foreign outlets, dutifully supporting Trump administration calls for regime change, reported that a widespread uprising was underway, even though Juan Guaidó’s coup attempt had little support."


  3. lprent 4


    Partial fix on the search engine.

    It now does the fast search on comments and posts correctly, but with limited selection (ie the Advanced buttons aren't remembering). The @author and other keyword searches need looking at.

    And the engine underneath sometimes crashes (looks like a simple SEGV – possibly memory?) and restarts. That displays as a screen with no results. Just do it again.

    Anyway, I'll have a crack at the rest of it as soon as I get some time. But work calls and so does my father's 80th. So don't expect it too fast.

    • gsays 4.1

      Hey thanks lprent, some of your jiggery-pokery has now made me able to reply on my huawei bat fone.


  4. Rosemary McDonald 5

    Northland DHB Chair does his bid to increase vaccination compliance in his rohe no favours when he seems determined to misrepresent basic facts.


    He claims that … Those at risk include other unvaccinated children, those being treated for cancer and the elderly.

    …while according to the Immunisation Advisory Centre, Adults born in New Zealand prior to 1969 are considered to be immune to measles as there was no measles containing vaccine until 1969 and the disease is so highly infectious. MMR vaccination is not generally indicated for adults born in New Zealand prior to 1969.


    Chamberlain also strongly implies that the low rates of vaccination in the North are due to the movie Vaxxed being shown …

    The anti-vaccination movement has targetted the region in recently years, he said, and some parents were choosing not to get the children immunised.

    "We had [an anti-vaccination] movie which was shown early last year and was targeting Northland in a big way – it started off in Northland and it was shown many, many times throughout Northland."

    Yes, the movie Vaxxed was shown throughout the North in early 2017….https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503450&objectid=11863219

    …but as to the effect on immunisation rates…https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/preventative-health-wellness/immunisation/immunisation-coverage/national-and-dhb-immunisation-data

    ….he really ought to do a little research, as the data implies the rates have actually increased since the dreaded movie was shown.

    So, on the back of this misinformation, and with a grand total of two cases of measles being diagnosed in the North they are strongly suggesting forcing parents of unvaccinated children to keep their children away from school.

    • One Two 5.2

      Measles – Vaccine Risk Statement (VRS)

      Is the dishonesty deliberate…

      • Andre 5.2.1

        Is the dishonesty deliberate?

        In the case of Physicians for Informed Consent, it clearly appears to be yes, the dishonesty from them is indeed deliberate. As always in the case of internet info, it pays to check the source. Here's a few of the hits:




        The third link is from Dr David Gorski. As yet another internet source, Gorski is worth checking out. Here's what he has to say about himself, where he also helpfully includes links to his detractors.


        • marty mars

          Awesome links thanks

          That Gorski one is a classic

          Examples of the campaign of vilification over the last 18 years clearly designed to try to silence Dr. Gorski include an accusation of pedophilia by neo-Nazis for his work debunking Holocaust denial, a reference to him as being a “nipple ripper” by a man named Patrick “Tim” Bolen, and a false accusation in 2010 of a nonexistent conflict of interest by an antivaccine website that led to a campaign on the part of antivaccinationists to try to get him fired from his job, as documented here. False claims that he is secretly a shill for the pharmaceutical industry (known as the “pharma shill gambit”) are frequently used to try to discredit him.

        • Andre

          Oh, and when it comes the Physicians for Informed Consent's specific dishonesty:

          Febrile seizures: by themselves they're common-ish (about 1 in 20 kids will have at least one growing up) and they're scary, but long term effects are very rare. So a 1 in 640 chance after an MMR shot isn't an argument against getting the shot.


          Death rate from measles is usually listed at about 1 in a thousand, not the one in 10,000 PIC stated. Some of my family members were permanently disabled from getting measles before the first vaccine was developed. In contrast, I'm not acquainted with or personally aware anyone old enough to have been vaccinated against measles with a measles or vaccine related disability, and the latter group is much larger than the former. PIC are waaay understating the risk from actual measles.

          • Rosemary McDonald

            There are a number of published papers addressing adverse effects of vaccines, and while acknowledging harm has been caused by the vaccine, there is much discussion on how best to manage the fallout so as not to deter parents from vaccinating their children.


            Not that anyone will actually even read the Discussion…

            • Andre

              The only reason the Urabe strain MMR vaccine is in any way an argument against vaccination is because there are other MMR vaccines with even lower risk of side effects than the already very low risk of Urabe strain MMR vaccines. But the Urabe strain was continued in use in some places after the others were developed, because Urabe was cheaper.

              As far as I can tell, the last wealthy country to use Urabe MMR was the UK, and it was discontinued there 30ish years ago. We're a wealthy country, we don't use Urabe, it's not an an argument against vaccination programs here in NZ.

              Rosemary, by your eagerness to throw out these out-of-context historical factoids that are irrelevant to modern NZ context, you are very much part of the problem.

            • One Two

              Mumps outbreak in highly vaccinated populations

              Merck are defending/stalling against two of their own researchers who claim the efficacy statistics of the mumps component of MMR were fraudulently derived…

              The claims stem from 2011 and are qualified by the recent and present time mumps outbreaks in highly vaccinated populations…

              • Andre

                The mumps vaccine is widely acknowledged to be lower effectiveness than measles and rubella vaccines.

                One dose of MMR vaccine is 93% effective against measles, 78% effective against mumps, and 97% effective against rubella.

                Two doses of MMR vaccine are 97% effective against measles and 88% effective against mumps.


                That mumps outbreaks continue to happen in highly vaccinated population (mumps vaccine effectiveness is quoted as 78% to 88% effective), but the likelihood of measles outbreaks in highly vaccinated populations is effectively zero (measles vaccine effectiveness 93% to 97%) neatly shows that herd immunity is indeed a thing.

                But even those for whom the mumps vaccine isn't effective, they're still likely to benefit from having had it. Because the disease is likely to be less severe for them. Which is why it's recommended to get a booster shot if you're at risk during an outbreak.

                edit: That difference in effectiveness is why measles and rubella are considered eradicable diseases (like smallpox was eradicated) but mumps is not.

                • Rosemary McDonald

                  The mumps vaccine is widely acknowledged to be lower effectiveness than measles and rubella vaccines.

                  The initial version of MMR, deployed back in the mid eighties contained the Urabe strain of mumps which was quite effective.

                  Unfortunately there were quite significant adverse effects….such as aseptic meningitis similar to what could be a complication of actual mumps.


                  Furthermore, there was an increased risk of hospital admission for febrile convulsion 15–35 days after receipt of a Urabe-containing MMR vaccine (an attributable risk of approximately 1 in 1,500 doses), indicating that the real risk of acute neurologic consequences from the Urabe mumps component of MMR was underestimated when using case ascertainment methods that were reliant on laboratory investigations (5).

                  So, the Urabe strain fell out of favour (although it is/was still used, as in the above study, in places like Brazil and El Salvador) and the more benign yet less effective Jeryl Lynne strain of mumps was used.

                  A similar scenario played out with pertussis if I remember rightly….initial strains gave good protection but had unacceptable levels of harm, so a less harmful but also less effective version was rolled out which still struggles to protect especially babies. I understand the latest protocol demands that the pregnant mum be vaccinated to afford protect to the newborn. http://www.immune.org.nz/diseases/pertussis

                  DISCUSSION( From the link at

                  The risk of aseptic meningitis associated with MMR

                  vaccine has been well described, especially concerning

                  Urabe-containing products (1-4, 11, 12), and our

                  results are similar to previous risk estimations (as in the

                  work by Miller et al. (1)) of an incidence of nearly 1

                  case per 10,000 vaccinees. In spite of previous reports,

                  the Urabe-containing MMR vaccine was previously

                  judged by the Brazilian National Immunization

                  Program to be beneficial for use in a mass immuniza-

                  tion campaign, for reasons that included 1) the relative

                  rarity of adverse events, 2) the relative cost and possi-

                  bly higher immunogenicity in comparison with the

                  Jeryl Lynn-containing MMR vaccine (13-15), and

                  3) the clear net benefit of MMR immunization in a con-

                  text of high incidence of natural mumps infection and a

                  consequently high incidence of meningitis (16).

                  This study raises new practical questions regarding

                  public health. The issue is not simply whether or not a

                  specific vaccine is associated with an adverse event,

                  but the extent to which a specific vaccination strategy

                  influences the visibility of the adverse event despite its

                  confirmed relative rarity, and hence affects public con-


              • Andre

                BTW, you got a link for your assertion about Merck and their researchers? Or is it just a slur that you're trying to give credibility by including it with a separate topic you have actually linked to?

          • lprent

            Some of my family members were permanently disabled from getting measles before the first vaccine was developed.

            I know what you mean. I used to run across people with some truly crippling injuries from various diseases before vaccines for them, and then afterwards in the interregnum as the population gained enough immunisation density to stop the diseases. Polio, german measles, adult mumps, even bad scarring chickenpox plus a host of other diseases.

            There are also a host of other diseases that the young and stupid simply have no idea about. For instance, one of grandfathers had a simple boil in the 1920s (something that is really rare these days compared to when I grew up). But his was before the days of antibiotics. The boil went all the way into the bone marrow of his left leg (it is called osteomyelitis) and he lost all of the marrow.

            Which meant that his leg didn’t grow fully. Moreover, he lost about half of his natural immunity levels from the loss of white corpuscle. He was a sickly cripple in the depression and would have died if penicillin hadn’t arrived when he was in hospital. He lived until he was over 80 working steadily until retirement, but was on massive antibiotic doses for more than 40 years.

            Ummm.. found this while looking up the name of, this now, rare disease as well about penicillin and osteomyelitis.

            The problem with anti-vaxxers generally seems to be that they are simply choose to unaware of the history benefits of various medical procedures and the much smaller risks associated with using them.

            Rather than pushing for “informed consent”, I mostly view every anti-vaxxer I have seem as just being the “ill-informed discontent”. Apparently too foolish to read the history of diseases over the last century.

            Not to mention that they seem to specialise in lying by accident or design with some of the really idiotic statistics they keep quoting (with no apparent basis) about what they seem to view as being the halcyon days before vaccines dropped the disease exposure rates, antibiotics stopped people dying of bacterial diseases, and inadequate sewerage systems reduced the death rates in cities from incipient cholera to people being able to complain about the taste of the water.

            • Andre

              I wonder how many pro-diseaser minds would change if they actually experienced or saw a lot of people around them suffering from these diseases.

              There's reasons third world mothers walk for hours carrying their kids in the hot sun when a vaccination clinic visits their nearest town. They can see the difference between those who get vaccinated and those who don't. (Fuck I felt bad when we drove past a couple of mums carrying their kids walking down the road, then hours later in the town where we stopped they walk up to the clinic. Even though there wasn't anywhere we could have fitted them in the car)

            • Macro

              I had osteomyelitis as a kid. It was hell. The pain I experienced was in the hip and was excruciating. I had to lie with a pillow between my legs for hours. I was off school for weeks, and had to give up all sport for years. Lots of penicillin and then it was gone. At the time I had constant sore throats, scarlet fever, mumps and every other thing going. I have no lasting effects fortunately, and had completely forgotten about it until your story above.

      • Tuppence Shrewsbury 5.2.2

        Is your dishonesty deliberate?

        One immunologist on the whole leadership panel? holistic medicine practitioners on the leadership council? The founder felt personally assaulted when California removed personal and religious choice options about vaccination?

        That website is not run by a medically recognised council. they're quacks

        You know infectious disease rates are higher in poor areas with strong church affiliations?

        • higherstandard


          I advise not engaging with OT on the issue of vaccination as the person using that pseudonym has little of merit to offer apart from very selective misrepresentation of science.

          • Andre

            It would be nice if the likes of One Two posting malicious bullshit could be just ignored. The problem is if the bullshit gets taken as an actual truth and acted on by someone, then real harm could be the result.

            • higherstandard

              Indeed – therefore best just to post information that refutes their position (as you did) and then avoid engaging with their bluster which'll undoubtedly follow at some stage.

              • Andre

                Although, if you're in the right mood for it, it can be quite entertaining being the subject of derogatory commentary that's nuttier than a pot of satay sauce.

                • marty mars

                  onya mate – I'm pleased you are putting good info up cos it is a time consuming, repetitive business – kia kaha

          • Rosemary McDonald

            In the meantime, the Chair of the Northland DHB thinks it makes good sense to spread bullshit in an attempt to justify excluding kids from school.

            When they (DHBs calling for a national campaign against anti vaxxers) have already been told by IMAC that anti-vaxxers are not the major cause of low vaccine uptake.



            • Andre

              Anecdata from my niece who is a practicing doctor in Northland suggests there are pockets where immunisation rates are low enough, coupled with the extreme contagiousness of measles, that excluding unvaccinated kids from schools is at least justifiable.

              It's a shitload easier to deal with the downside of some kids not going to school for a while than it is dealing with a measles outbreak. Any parents finding it too hard to deal with their kids being at home because they're unvaccinated has an easy and free solution: get their kids vaccinated.

              • Rosemary McDonald

                Still not addressing the issue of the Chair of the Northland DHB using false and misleading statements to justify excluding kids from school.

                • McFlock

                  Firstly, elderly born in NZ are regarded as immune.

                  Secondly, just because I had a little free time at work, I had a look at northland vax rates for 5 calendar years, using your link. Short story: vax rates in 5yo increased 2014-2018. Vax rates at 6months, 8months, 12 months, 18months, and 24 months were all static or increasing 2014-2017, decreasing in 2017-2018.

                  Looks like some fools are delaying vaccination until their kids get the B4school check.

                  6m 8m 12m 18m 24m 5y

                  12 month period ending December 2014 67%88%90%79%88%75%

                  31 December 2015 67.7%87.5%89.8%80.2%88.2%77.6%

                  31-Dec-2016 70.4%89.5%90.7%79.3%88.7%80.1%

                  31-Dec-2017 66.4%86.4%88.3%75.4%86.7%82.3%

                  31-Dec-2018 61.8%82.6%85.9%73.0%84.7%83.2%

            • greywarshark

              Don't automatically diss the system. They have a problem and are attempting to confront it and get people to acknowledge it. Crazy to keep on doing what has always been done.

              We used to have buses that went around areas making it easy toget medical help. When we were a country with aspirations for being a good place to bring children up in.

              • Rosemary McDonald

                Don't automatically diss the system.

                So, it is acceptable for the regional health authority to lie and misrepresent?

                Answer…No. Never. It is lazy and indicates utter contempt for the population they are responsible for.

                He needs to get off his chuff and go and find out why the children are not being vaccinated…and perhaps not calling it an outbreak when when at least one of the two cases of measles is from out of the area.

                And perhaps asking why its ok to threaten excluding kids from school in the North after only two cases, when this was not touted as an option in regions with more confirmed cases of measles and similar immunisation rates.

          • Tuppence Shrewsbury

            I'll engage with any anti-vax idiot. While they won't listen and continue to seek out self selecting, pseudo-science bull shit on the internet, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be held to account for their stupidity.

            Every time is see some fuckwit complaining that anti-vaxxers get a bad rep, despite their claims they only use 'Facts", I remind myself how many people died from preventable communicable diseases before vaccination.

            • halfcrown

              + 100%

            • KJT

              I am old enough to remember the many of my schoolmates, who ended up in hospital, from the effects of diseases that vaccines have made uncommon. Some have ended up with serious lifelong disabilities, and a couple had deformed children from Rubella. My mother remembers classmates who died from polio, and whooping cough. I had shingles in my teens, from chicken pox, and nearly lost an eye.

              Anyone who refuses to vaccinate their kids, exposing them to those risks, is, make no mistake, a child abuser.

              If vaccines are as bloody dangerous, as the anti vaxxers claim, where are the hospitals full of 'vaccine injured" children'? I've only met one person, in my life, who genuinely and provably seriously reacts to vaccines. And she fully recovered after an allergic reaction. Do anti vaxxers seriously believe that millions of Doctors, nurses and hospital staff are hiding millions of vaccine reactions. The hospitals would be full and overflowing.

              The really silly thing about it is, if we vaccinated enough people to eradicate diseases such as chicken pox and measles, then we would no longer have to vaccinate against them. Removing the, small risk, of vaccinating against them, for future generations.

              • Tuppence Shrewsbury

                The do believe that millions of doctors and nurses are wrong They probably believe the wards of vaccine injured children are hidden behind the ice walls patrolled by the world army. all part of the same conspiracy doncha know?

        • cleangreen

          The cannabis debate; questions;

          Will the smoke that is emitted from smoking cannabis weed be more climate change alkenes and the alkynes emission those alkanes?

          Has any robust studies science based been done about this climate change effects of the extra set of those extra mixed alkanes emitted to our atmosphere?.

          • Tuppence Shrewsbury

            Too old to find the relevant reply button?

            Burning toast is probably a climate change factor if your reasoning is anything to go by.

            Do you think before you type?

      • Rosemary McDonald 5.2.3

        Is the dishonesty deliberate…

        That, One Two is the $64,000000 question.

        Dr Chamberlain seems to be assuming no one is going to actually take the time to check his claims against the nationally collected and collated data. Pity, because you win no one over when you treat them like fools. Those seriously committed to vaccine transparency (as are the Physicians for Informed Consent you linked to) will jump all over his claims.

        The ordinary person? Some of the not so bright will simply forget that anyone over the age of 55 has most likely got natural immunity to this,and many other, common diseases and will probably not know about the well documented decline in some of these diseases before the advent of vaccinations. This is history, but like so much these days it can be revised to fit a particular narrative.

        I guess with our NDHB Chair we have a simple case of him being desperate to blame something for the perceived low uptake of vaccination in the North, but as Nikki Turner from IMAC said a few months ago…the anti vaxxers are only a small part of the 'problem' of low compliance. There's other stuff going on that leads to low uptake….blaming a movie is sheer idleness, and when this is combined with outright bullshittery it would not surprise me if more parents decline some vaccinations because the local health boss lied to guilt trip them into compliance.

        No one likes to be treated like an idiot.

        • One Two

          As you can see from the responses to my comments, the linked references to FDA CDC WHO etc are not being replied to…

          I've no need to respond to any of those handles who I've previously supplied with more than enough reference data from so called official sources…

          It appears some do in fact like being treated as an idiot…

          • Tuppence Shrewsbury

            so your claims of official sources are only "So called" as such

            Autism runs through the family dingbat. blame yourself for your own childrens inadequacies. not vaccines

            • WeTheBleeple

              There is no evidence Autism is specifically genetically linked. You are also talking through a hole.

              • cleangreen

                smileyYes WTB he is a hole for rubbish himself.

              • Tuppence Shrewsbury

                There is 1:1 correlation between suffering autism and having parents. All official sources acknowledge this, therefore it is true.

                Just like there is a 1:1 correlation between cleangreen posting something about trains and that post not being relevant to the thread it’s posted on.

                • Robert Guyton

                  If Jesus was autistic, Tuppence's claims would be negated. If Jesus wasn't autistic, Tuppence's claims would be negated.

                  • Tuppence Shrewsbury

                    a neat summation of the stupidity of the pro-plague supporters intellectual thought patterns

                    • One Two

                      A neat summation of your maths/logic and why your comments are bigoted.

                      There is 1:1 correlation between suffering autism and having parents.

                      • There is a 1:1 correlation between a mother and a child…
                      • There is a 1:1 correlation between being a vaccinated child and having a mother…
                      • There is a 1:1 correlation between a vaccine and the chemical compounds / ingredients which do cause damage (including autism)…
                      • There is a 1:1 correlation between suffering vaccine damage and having received vaccine(s)…
                      • There is a 1:1 correlation between a vaccine damaged child and having a mother…
                      • There is a 1:1 correlation between your insulting and abusive comments towards mothers (and fathers) who choose to selectively vaccinate or not vaccinate at all …. being misogynistic and bigoted…

                      Following your 'maths'…every child who has received vaccine(s) has a mother …and is therefore genetically pre-disposed to autism…which could be triggered by vaccination(s)…

                      One size doe not fit all.

  5. millsy 6

    I have yet to see a sound reason coming from the prudes as to why we should continue to criminalise people for having a couple of cones on a Saturday night or having a a couple of tinnies in their pocket. This is the real issue at hand. It really all stems from the whole Calvinistic attitude that if you make the slightest mistake, you have to spend the rest of your life paying for it, in this case, apparently Bennett, Bridges, Garner and McCroskie think that having a few tinnies makes you an evil sinner, and is grounds for having a conviction against your record, leaving you locked out of housing and job oppurtunties for the rest of your life.

    Discliamer: I have never touched cannabis, and I probably never will.

    • Robert Guyton 6.1

      Do you get someone to roll up for you?

      (Just joshing')

      • Andre 6.1.1

        When you put it that way, I too can claim probably claim to have never touched cannabis. On all the occasions I've partaken, someone else supplied it and the joints were just getting passed around.

    • gsays 6.2

      Instead of the 'have you ever used cannabis?' carry on from journalists, I would rather they asked 'have you met with any alcohol/supermarket lobbyists?'

      It would be far more illuminating.

      • Robert Guyton 6.2.1

        They'd say, "Yes, but we barely spoke."

        • greywarshark

          Very witty Robert. What do those in the know think about marijuana – does it make you witty, think you are witty when not, slow the brain down or make you feel good then depressed?

          • BM

            Very personal and very dependant on how much you have

            can make you laugh at anything,

            can make you super paranoid,

            can give you fast reaction speeds,

            can heighten the senses,

            can stimulate creativity,

            can fill your head full of utter shite,

            can put you to sleep,

            can make you completely misinterpret what's going on around you,(sort of fall into your own world).

            combine with booze can make you aggressive and angry

            • Andre

              Only ever driven once after having a few tokes. It scared the crap out of me. I lost the ability to see and interpret anything outside of the twenty metres or so in front of me that was brightly lit by my headlights.

              Then when I was at a party where I needed to drive home, and some joints were getting passed around, I was going to pass. But then my girlfriend at the time said she'd be fine to drive, so I went ahead and had some puffs. When she drove us home, it was obvious her night vision was impaired in exactly the same way.

              • BM

                Driving stoned is not a great experience.

                I only ever did it once during the day and that was bad enough, couldn't judge distances properly which caused quite a bit of stress.

                Particularly bad at the lights, if you had to turn right and there was no turning arrow, while there was quite a bit on oncoming traffic;

                Also crawling down the road doing about 40kph but feels like you're doing over 100 while paranoid as shit that the cops may pull you over.


                • Also crawling down the road doing about 40kph but feels like you're doing over 100 while paranoid as shit that the cops may pull you over.

                  Ha ha that brings back memories. God yes, the cops could probably just police driving stoned by looking out for drivers creeping along at low speed while looking terrified at how fast they're going – might mistakenly arrest a few old people, though.

          • McFlock

            less fights than alcohol, quieter too. Not completely aggro free, and paranoia can come into play, but doesn't affect coordination as much. Does slow people down, though.

        • gsays

          Too busy enjoying the restaurant meal.

    • BM 6.3

      I smoked up a storm when I was a young man.

      Haven't smoked for a very long time, personally, I'm not keen about the commercialisation of weed and making it socially mainstream.

      I have no issue with people who want to smoke it, grow a few plants or buy a bit off their mates and do that legally, but I don't want to go down the same path as Colorado and have a full-blown recreational drug industry.

      I wouldn't like to see this sort of shit happening in NZ, we've got enough societal issues as it is.


      • marty mars 6.3.1

        on the ground floor eh – I'm sick of people telling others what not to do especially when they did it themselves. growers will never let it go coloradolegal – get real – try sorting out climate change instead of bullshittingly trying to be a moral pygmy on this.

        Learn More About Our Campaign


        to be announced…

        • BM

          What the fuck has climate change got to do with the legalisation of cannabis?

          Less cones for you fool.

          • gsays

            You mention societal issues, these would include the high (boom boom) arrest and conviction rates for our caramel cousins.

            I have long argued the most damaging aspect of cannabis is it's status in law.

      • Tuppence Shrewsbury 6.3.2

        Why not have it fully legal and commercialised?

        By my own admission I can barely keep a basil plant alive, let alone grow potent pot.

        I'd rather buy edibles than smoke it. I find smoking weed makes me paranoid but hash doesn't. But eating it? I love eating it. so relaxing.

        I do all this in amsterdam and denver, I've seen first hand how good legalisation is.

        It's about six months of buying and holding dominoes shares then everyone chills out and life goes back to normal.

  6. JohnSelway 7

    Anyone know what happened to Draco? He’s been missing quite sometime now and I miss his painful gibberish.

  7. greywarshark 8

    When we think of government and elect people to represent us, we think of governmenht running things, directing things with a strong overview of their expectations to fulfil policies we want. What we get is the job of government siphoned off to agencies with the power of royalty. I think we have been, and are being hornswoggled. That is a made-up word for a cunning plan to sell us a made-up story about having a government that's 'ours', nationally and locally.


    Panuku Developments Ltd – Auckland know all about how to combat fairness and imbalance.

    n a statement, Panuku Development said it aimed to make the best use of any revenue from land sales. "When we sell a site, the revenue generated is channelled into a pot from which we prioritise expenditure based on the best use of those funds," the statement said.

    "This is as opposed to a specific area being promised it will retain all of the funds raised from the sale of assets in its location, which is a system that creates unfairness and imbalance."

    But Otara community leaders don't agree:

    Efeso Collins, the chair of Ōtara Health, said while the community was happy to share some of the revenue, 40 percent going to wealthier suburbs was hard to take. "The disappointment is that so much of it is the poor subsidising the wealthy," he said.

    Mr Collins said the money could be spent on local health services instead.

    "The thinking needs to be what's going to serve Ōtara first and then what can we share with what's left over as opposed to work out a plan that doesn't really have our voice in it and then go off and split the money that way."

    This is the mission statement that tops the Paunuku Developments site. Shaping spaces for Aucklanders to love

    Examples: April 2019 : Consent granted for Queens Wharf upgrade; New plan for Northcote's Town Centre; Urban Walking Festival.

    Sounds like nice things for the haves with time and money and opportunity to enjoy the provisions of spaces aimed at the middle-class.


    Panuku Development Auckland helps to regenerate parts of our city – from small projects that refresh a site or building, to major transformations of town centres or neighbourhoods….

    Panuku Development Auckland is the Council-controlled organisation that delivers urban regeneration in Tāmaki Makaurau (Auckland). We’re here to radically improve your quality of living.

    Our city is facing rapid growth. Quality development is required to accommodate this growth, and to ensure people love and can afford to live in Auckland.

    We imagine a city of strong neighbourhoods.

    We work across many neighbourhoods throughout our city – from large, long-term urban regeneration plans to small projects on specific sites – to meet the needs of the city’s long-term growth, including more types of homes people can afford.

    We work alongside the locals, other parts of council and businesses to regenerate our city in ways that benefit both our local communities and Auckland as a whole.

    We make a profit for council, but at the same time we ensure our buildings contribute positively to their neighbourhoods.

    We also manage around $3 billion of land and buildings that Auckland Council owns, which we regularly review to find smart ways to make money for our city.


    Someone living in an area Whangaparoa? which Panuku has plans to sell wrote to the old Council about access
    and received this modspeak : “Patricia seems to be getting no further with Auckland Transport (AT), since the Councils amalgamated. AT clearly told her in recent correspondence that although it “supports walking to make Auckland one of the world’s most liveable cities”, her problems score low against their set criteria for pavement construction and improving safety.” Words, words.

  8. joe90 9

    The only man on the planet who could bankrupt a business where the house always wins. And then he started a cult.

    But in the granular detail of tax results, it gives a precise accounting of the president’s financial failures and of the constantly shifting focus that would characterize his decades in business. In contrast to his father’s stable and profitable empire of rental apartments in Brooklyn and Queens, Mr. Trump’s primary sources of income changed year after year, from big stock earnings, to a single year of more than $67.1 million in salary, to a mysterious $52.9 million windfall in interest income. But always, those gains were overwhelmed by losses on his casinos and other projects.

    The new information also suggests that Mr. Trump’s 1990 collapse might have struck several years earlier if not for his brief side career posing as a corporate raider. From 1986 through 1988, while his core businesses languished under increasingly unsupportable debt, Mr. Trump made millions of dollars in the stock market by suggesting that he was about to take over companies. But the figures show that he lost most, if not all, of those gains after investors stopped taking his takeover talk seriously.



    • Siobhan 9.1

      I'm a little surprised the powers that be want to highlight these losses and shenanigans. For starters he's simply operating in an economic and legal structure/system specifically designed and lacking in proper regulation to allow this sort of thing.

      And secondly, I was going to type out a list of companies, corporations and rich individuals that operate at a loss, or small profit, but the list is so long I don't even know where to start.

      Though I guess you could say its a shame Trump wasn't more invested in Banking, subprime mortgages and hedge funds…he could have been bailed out by Bush/Obama

      • joe90 9.1.1

        The notion that tRump's hugely successful businesses would make him a successful president swayed a goodly portion of the electorate.The fact that he's always been a loser in business will hurt him. Hence the secrecy about his taxes.

        And losses accounting for fully 1 percent of all the losses that the I.R.S. reported had been declared by individual taxpayers in a particular year do rather set him apart.

        • greywarshark

          The peeps also have a mistaken idea about busines, as being next to God somehow. Unfortunately much of USA religion is connected to a business, so they are in double trouble when trying to discriminate what is good, what is gold, what is dross and fool's gold.

        • Siobhan

          Yeah, but the IRS don't know very much about anything, they have very select insights into a very small group of individuals..simply because they do not make a habit of investigating the very rich.


          And I can not find very good information on why people voted for Trump..just supposition by people who were probably absolutely clueless as to why so many people didn't buy the Democrats vision. However I have been repeatedly been assured it was because of the Russians.

          Personally I agree with you..it was because of his perceived 'success'. which was all smoke and mirrors..but that pretty much sums up most wealth..and in America it would seem appearances are what matter. Certainly, until he ran for President, his 'success' was enough to earn him Bill and Hillarys friendship.

          However my point still stands..all this simply highlights the corrupt system..as much as The Donalds uselessness. Assuming you can call becoming President a failure.

  9. greywarshark 10


    “To address the long-term challenge of climate change, today we introduce the Climate Change Response (Zero Carbon) Amendment Bill to Parliament,” Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said.

    “We’ve built a practical consensus across Government that creates a plan for the next 30 years, which provides the certainty industries need to get in front of this challenge.

  10. greywarshark 11

    Are we now on a list of missile sites? The space experiments that have gone on from our country are USA militarily connected. Would we be a handy target now if a warning shot was to be sent as a prelude to actually firing directly at he USA. Nobody in our eager beaver money players seems to have our strategy in mind when they sign up to doing some sort of overseas collaboration. Is there money in it? Okay let's do it.

    Rocket Lab is touted as a NZ entrepreneurial success story. Indeed it is, although it is now a US based company headquartered in Huntington Beach, USA, with a NZ subsidiary based in Auckland and on the Mahia Peninsula. Most of the capital invested in Rocket Lab now comes from US based funds and companies. The Electron engines are built in Huntington Beach and the launch vehicle assembled in Auckland.

    There can be no doubt that Rocket Lab is revolutionising the space industry. But the launch of foreign military satellites by a NZ based company from a launch site on sovereign NZ soil raises some important political, practical and legal questions.


  11. Poission 12

    Rbnz cuts OCR economy weak,

    Will the Government issue more irrelevant policy to divert from underlying issues?

  12. greywarshark 13

    This got put in Open Mike for the 7th but it is really current so I carry over the last bits of the discussion on the WWEG and the government and the spending and Budget etc.

    • In Vino …

      7 May 2019 at 11:45 pm

      Coming in late at the end of a long thread.. I love that phrase 'The Disappointment Accumulator'

      I too have long seen The Chairman as a concern troll – the most persistent and devious I have seen.

      But I would now like name The Chairman "The Disappointment Accumulation Dispersal Man."

      His messages always spread discouragement… so far.


      • greywarshark …

        8 May 2019 at 12:57 pm

        In Vino I note and agree with you, which is pretty usual.

        I used to dislike The Chairman because he was negative too early in my opinion, a disagreeable old moaner, in my opinion, when we needed to watch, encourage, wait for results and not put weedkiller on our patch.

        But I read some of his stuff the other day and think his opinion was right for the time. He made a case that would allow Prime Minister Jacinda to press forward using leverage on her popularity with NZ, and get the austerity-for-everyone-but-me Labourites off their bums and looking across the room at other figures and numbers. They don't care about people in need and the founding ideals of Labour. But figures and numbers that show money spent now will save huge expense later would crown their miserly minds; and Labour could draw on reserves set aside now for those high expected future expenses. Spend now, and produce three-fold advantage of drops in expenditure in ten years or such.

        From my comment at 1 1 1 1 I think I quoted The Chairman saying what I consider should be pressed on the Labour Coalition leaders prior to the Budget of the 30th May.

        Sixty-five percent of New Zealand First supporters wanted the party to go with Labour. Who widely campaigned on addressing poverty and inequality.

        Additionally, if it were just Bradford and I that are disappointed Labour wouldn't have a problem. Unfortunately for them, the disappointment is widespread.

        Moreover, failing to deliver on more of the recommendations sooner will lead to their fiscal management coming under the spotlight. People will question why they aren't prepared to invest now to save the greater cost and social harm of not doing so.

    • In Vino 13.1

      I agree, Greywarshark.. he has lately posted some fair arguments and material. But I am still wary. I remember the lovely 'out' that hard-out bible-bangers use – 'The Devil may use the Scriptures for his own purposes.' ..

      I remain sceptical, even if he may be quite correct in your quote above. Even a subversive may use the truth.

  13. One Two 14

    Non-genetic factors play surprisingly large role in determining autism, says study by group

    From prior studies of shared autism in twins, scientists had estimated that 90 percent of autism risk was attributable to genes and only 10 percent to non-genetic environmental factors.

    But the new study — the largest ever of twins in which at least one in each pair has autism — shows almost the opposite

    Environmental v Genetic

    • Bazza64 14.1

      One Two,

      Did you read the study about wearing tin foil hats (TFH) makes it easier for the government to track your thoughts ?


      I thought this was weird but on closer reading it makes a lot of sense. I have to weigh up whether I continue to wear my TFH or biff it & risk wifi-madness vs. government knowing my thoughts. Would be happy with Jacinda in the know, but not Simon, so may ditch the TFH if Nats win the next election.

    • WeTheBleeple 14.2

      The spectrum's diversity can be explained much more easily when one lends weight to environmental factors as exacerbating pre-existing tendencies (genetics) to a disease outcome.

      Vaginal vs caesarian birth, breast milk vs formula, country vs city, spray regimes, antibiotic history, diet, peer group, travel history… makeup of the microbiome…

      • Robert Guyton 14.2.1

        WTB – read Charles Eisenstein's "Climate – A new story" yet?

        • WeTheBleeple

          No. Reading the blurb he'd be preaching to the choir. Deep ecology. Bring it.

          My money's on the microbes as to who might survive all these shenanigans however. Give them another billion years or so the next rise of 'intelligence' – hairless bunnies rule the earth, then, being very fond of refrigerated carrots, but not having learned the whole CFC thing, they all die of sunburn. Rumor has it some go deep underground and wage war on the mollipedes for cavern space.

          Life will find a way.

      • One Two 14.2.2

        Yes, quite probably…

        As you politely pointed out to one of this sites less informed commentators (quite a feat among that angry little mans group) who attempted to claim autism was simply the outcome of genetics

        There are an impossible number of environmental variations injected, injected (untested) and absorbed into and by pregnant woman and new borns from within moments of birth , many of which are only recently being explored regarding the microbiome and potential trigger factors…

        Taking an absolute position that one single type of one single product line does not, or will not cause autism…is a ridiculous position to hold…

        • Tuppence Shrewsbury

          so if there are an impossible number of environmental variations that can cause autism and 10% of the factors are genetic, genetics are a larger risk factor than vaccines in causing autism.

          do the math, educate yourself. Parenting can lead to autism

          • One Two

            There is 1:1 correlation between suffering autism and having parents.

            • There is a 1:1 correlation between a mother and a child…
            • There is a 1:1 correlation between being a vaccinated child and having a mother…
            • There is a 1:1 correlation between a vaccine and the chemical compounds / ingredients which do cause damage (including autism)…
            • There is a 1:1 correlation between suffering vaccine damage and having received vaccine(s)…
            • There is a 1:1 correlation between a vaccine damaged child and having a mother…
            • There is a 1:1 correlation between your insulting and abusive comments towards mothers (and fathers) who choose to selectively vaccinate or not vaccinate at all …. being misogynistic and bigoted…

            Following your 'maths'…every child who has received vaccine(s) has a mother …and is therefore genetically pre-disposed to autism…which could be triggered by vaccination(s)…

            One size doe not fit all.

            • Tuppence Shrewsbury

              …"Following your 'maths'…every child who has received vaccine(s) has a mother …and is therefore genetically pre-disposed to autism…which could be triggered by vaccination(s)…"

              I'm glad to know you agree that there is a stronger link between genetics and autism than vaccines and austism.

              …"There is a 1:1 correlation between your insulting and abusive comments towards mothers (and fathers) who choose to selectively vaccinate or not vaccinate at all …. being misogynistic and bigoted…"

              It's not misogynistic or bigoted. It's a refusal to let idiots who harm the community be allowed to harm the community.

              I'm like a one person climate change march

              • One Two

                It's not misogynistic or bigoted.

                I've just used your own commentary against you to illustrate that it is both misogynistic and bigoted.

                Notably, those such as yourself must all be guys who push the same misogynistic and bigoted ignorance…

                It's a refusal to let idiots who harm the community be allowed to harm the community.

                The refusal (denial), is by those who share views such as evidenced in commentary on this site (all guys), to accept or acknowledge decades of medical and scientific archives full with studies regarding vaccine failure and vaccine related damage and death.

                Such denial is pure anti-science and bigotry… perhaps that goes over your head or is filtered out …

                I'm like a one person climate change march

                Conflating vaccine damage , death, denial and bigotry with climate change activism…

                I responded to use your own commentary against you…that was the only reason…I just needed to hold back until you provided the material.

                Which I knew that you would.

                • higherstandard

                  'The refusal (denial), is by those who share views such as evidenced in commentary on this site (all guys), to accept or acknowledge decades of medical and scientific archives full with studies regarding vaccine failure and vaccine related damage and death.

                  Such denial is pure anti-science and bigotry… perhaps that goes over your head or is filtered out …'

                  The most repetitive purveyor of pure anti-science and non-acceptance of the weight of scientific and medical literature is the poster who goes under the handle of one two.

                  There is no evidence that immunisation with MMR vaccine leads to autism, there is considerable evidence that Andrew Wakefield (previously Dr now struck off) authored a fraudulent research paper claiming a link between the MMR vaccine and autism and bowel disease. This fraud, understandably, caused a number of concerned parents at the time to not vaccinate their children.

                  • One Two

                    The most repetitive purveyor of pure anti-science and non-acceptance of the weight of scientific and medical literature is the poster who goes under the handle of one two

                    Are you upset from the ethics discussion?…you should stop projecting your lack of knowledge, understanding …and weak linkage onto me…

                    You should consider broadening the inputs of the material you read…I see you enjoy the links to Offit/Gorski etc…and comment in support of the angry uninformed men who also exhibit their misogynistic bigotry (Gorski style) …

                    That is not the material which will assist your personal growth…

                    Reading and absorbing such material is keeping you, and others who function at a similar stunted level, on this subject…fixated on the same tired and misused tropes such was MMR/Wakefield…

                    If you were remotely capable of having this discussion, then you would have something more to offer…at this stage, you do not…

                    So you post comments projecting your under-informed frustrations outwards…

                    • Tuppence Shrewsbury

                      Pivoting from junk science to pseudo ethics to support your increasingly fragile premise?

                      I've noted you do this every time your sources and arguments are factually refuted. It's sad really, a classic example of the crazy person who thinks they are the only sane person in a world full of crazies

                • Tuppence Shrewsbury

                  But you didn't use my own argument against me? you proved my argument to be correct and your own argument wrong. You then used your proof to label me misogynistic and bigoted.

                  So what you've done is slur a factually correct argument with labels because you don't like it being correct, despite your assertions proving it correct.

                  Congratulations. you played yourself.

                  • One Two

                    But you didn't use my own argument against me?

                    Yes. I did. The question mark you use signals that you don’t even back yourself…

                    you proved my argument to be correct and your own argument wrong.

                    What was my argument ?

                    You then used your proof to label me misogynistic and bigoted.

                    Yes, your comments are misogynistic and bigoted…and I used your comments and stated opinion regarding genetic pre-disposition to autism as being related to all children (your stated comments)…who all have mothers/parents…

                    I linked a study which indicates that genetic pre-disposition is a factor…(so I ask you again…what was my argument)…oh yes…that your comments are abusive, insulting… misogynistic bigotry…

                    …which of course they are …

                    Against the Mothers/parents whose genetically pre-disposed children are damaged by environmental elements and compounds including the ingredients of vaccines…

                    And you continue to abuse and insult those mothers/parents…

                    I'll not be spending any more energy responding to point out the misogynistic bigotry contained within your insults and abuse towards the mothers/parents of genetically pre-disposed vaccine damaged children…

                    • Tuppence Shrewsbury

                      yet look at all the energy you expend by even starting out wrong.

        • WeTheBleeple

          No no no, don't drag me into the nutty shit.

          Autism is a spectrum, there are many factors attributed to higher incidences of Autism in many studies which I examined for over 18 months. Vaccines were NEVER one of them.

          I'm on the spectrum and have a vested interest in the truth.

          So STFU with the nonsense.

          • One Two

            No no no, don't drag me into the nutty shit.

            You replied to the study I linked to…I dragged you nowhere…

            I'm on the spectrum and have a vested interest in the truth.

            You do not have the monopoly on vested interests or on truth.

            Edit: 18 +/- months does not say you have examined every study. Keep reading.

            • WeTheBleeple

              You're not interested in what professionals say. You're spreading nonsense and no matter what is said/shown you sit on your silly high horse continuing like everyone else is a shill.

              You are a flat earthing asshat on this subject.

              • One Two

                You're not interested in what professionals say.

                I am absolutely interested in what professionals have to say on the subject…

                I am absolutely interested on what the parents have to say on the subject of vaccine damage including autism to their children…

                I am interested in what all studies, data and legal rulings say on the subject of vaccine damage…

                In fact I can tell you that I am interested in every possible angle, aspect and facet of the subject of vaccination and its consequences…

                You are a flat earthing asshat on this subject.

                Believe whatever you like wtb…

                I will keep enjoying your comments on gardens and the like…

                • greywarshark

                  I was interested in reading about early colonial history and the women who was paid to ride a horse to visit isolated Maori villages and talk about the problems of alcohol and encourage the women in particular to be alcohol free. She found in one area the whole hapu laid low with measles, with no outside help, no medicines. Their was some control about leaving the area so as to prevent it spreading which I think was set by Maori; a sort of rahui. She knew that they would die if help wasn't given and had to slip away to get out so she could advise the hospital authorities for that area. She succeeded and would not, I am sure, indulge in the rhetoric of anti-vaccers calling mostly, on their own bloated authority.

                  The strength of argumentative people who want to apply exactness to disease prevention here, has to be viewed alongside those who have upset people against the WHO trying to vaccinate against polio. They have been so inflamed by the diseased words they hear that they have killed health workers.

                  This behaviour has been a political ploy in the past, spreading the word that the vaccinations are sneaky ways of killing off your children by politicians and powers trying to clear people off the area, or take control of their lives. I think basically it is a power-play and is really despicable behaviour going straight to emotion and fear of the vulnerable, not encouraging people to look at it from the factual and rational POV.

                  • One Two

                    Vitimin A Treatmen of Measles

                    Woman of all generations have assisted then, as they do today…

                    She succeeded and would not, I am sure, indulge in the rhetoric of anti-vaccers calling mostly, on their own bloated authority.

                    Name calling of mothers/parents (who are also women) thereby belittling their experiences, their knowledge and understandings…

                    …while sharing an anecdote promoting the presumed humility of the woman horse rider…

                    Contradictory, insulting, derogatory, misogynistic bigotry…on your part, gw…

                    …upset people against the WHO trying to vaccinate against polio.

                    Oral Polio Vaccine – India Paralysis

                    [NEW DELHI] While India’s oral polio vaccine (OPV) drives have eliminated polio from the country, they have also resulted in over 490,000 cases of paralysis during 2000—2017, says a new study based on national surveillance statistics.

                    I think basically it is a power-play and is really despicable behaviour going straight to emotion and fear of the vulnerable, not encouraging people to look at it from the factual and rational POV

                    Your comments, like others here are laced with emotion, and lack both factual and rational content…in direct aggression against the vulnerable…

                    As I have illustrated above. Using your own comments and providing examples against them…

                    • Andre

                      India uses the very cheap oral live polio vaccine, New Zealand (like most wealthy countries) uses injectable inactivated (dead) polio vaccine which is even safer than the already very very low hazard of the oral vaccine. Using figures from a poor vastly populous country like India (which necessarily uses the cheapest) to scaremonger in wealthy New Zealand (which has the money to buy what’s best for the people) is just straight-up malicious dishonesty.

                      Now to look at the actual numbers: the risk of oral polio vaccine induced paralysis is generally quoted at around 3 per million doses. The generally quoted risk of paralysis from an actual wild polio infection is 5000 per million. If I were heading to a polio-endemic area and the oral vaccine was the only one available, the 3 per million risk of the vaccine vs the 5000 per million risk of the disease makes it a no brainer (as indeed I had in 1969). But the inactivated booster I got in 1998 is even more of a no-brainer.


                      https://www.health.govt.nz/your-health/conditions-and-treatments/diseases-and-illnesses/polio-poliomyelitis – see the Prevention tab

                    • One Two []

                      Even when you try…you fail…

                      Either you can't or don't read so well…or your trying to score points…

                      GW raised a point about WHO polio campaigns…to which I countered with an example of severe levels of damage caused…by the polio vaccine…

                      If gw was referring to Nz…I presumed he was not..and linked accordingly…

                      Back to Gorski you go for your mysogynistic bigotry training…

                      Anything you have..I'll counter directly through it…

                      Without using Gorski style name calling and bigotry…

                    • Andre

                      One Two, the actual article your scaremongering piece springboarded off of looked at Non-Polio Acute Flaccid Paralysis.

                      It found a weak correlation in parts of India with OPV administration and no causative mechanism was even suggested. A weak correlation in parts of India with its poor sanitation, poor nutrition, and massive load of other disease is hardly solid grounds for making the kinds of assertions the SciDev piece made and you repeated here.

                      Now, there's a couple of things to note about Non-Polio Acute Flaccid Paralysis that are right there in the name.

                      The Non-Polio bit means that the usual means of diagnosing polio turned up negative for those patients. It's not polio. And indeed, it occurs in places where polio has long been eradicated, like the US.

                      The second bit to note is the Acute bit. That means it's non-permanent. It's certainly a nasty illness, but it doesn't leave a permanent disability the way actual polio does.

                    • One Two []

                      I actually do read and can understand what the article and isissues are, Andre…Gorski and Offit have caused your self excused arrested development…

                      Stop shifting the goal posts…dismissing yet another example of vaccine caused damage to the children of mothers…

                      …to make excuses for your history of repetitive and bigoted comments…

      • Incognito 14.2.3

        Exactly! Instead of Environmental versus Genetic or Nature versus Nature it is the interplay between these two ‘levels’ (for want of a better word) that mutually influence each other through multiple positive and negative feedback loops.

        • WeTheBleeple

          Coming from a team of professionals (Minds for Minds) who studied this exact subject it surprised me the amount of people still trying to pin down one gene/bacteria/incidence to Autism. But then the drive for creating a drug is very strong in this crowd. Many genuinely care. Others… meh.

          Things that sometimes alleviate ASD symptoms

          Antibiotics. (often better at first, then worse)

          Fecal transplants.

          The gut bacteria are obviously key players in the severity of presentation of the disease. A healthy gut flora can help but the picky diets of many ASD sufferers make this difficult. The prebiotic fibres of many fruits and vegetables are important feedstocks for various probiotic species.

          The reasons for picky food preferences, however, are not just do to with texture and taste. Often the gut microbiome is already compromised and a bad stomach ache and/or the squirts follow healthy eating as microbes do battle and the immune system goes into overdrive. In these cases antibiotics then a direct fecal transplant may help where a microbe population should be replaced rather than encouraged toward a more healthy makeup.

          It's all relatively new to science, this thinking across disciplines, supposing maybe more than one thing is at play. They like to pin stuff down and make claims A begets B!

          A is connected to the whole damn alphabet.

          • greywarshark

            From my reading about Chronic Fatigue Syndrome what you say above seems relevant to people with this \also.

  14. sumsuch 16

    Much more liveliness in Martyn Bradbury's blog — his excitement sparking around. Lumpfing-around 'letter-writers' otherwise. I remember a respected 60s Listener editor's memoir's dry condemning chapter on such.

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