Open Mike 10/12/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, December 10th, 2017 - 181 comments
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181 comments on “Open Mike 10/12/2017”

  1. Andre 1

    A wee hopeful sign. Maybe even the oil companies now accept they don’t need to waste money looking for new sources since we’re fucked if we burn all the easily extractable oil we already know about.

    The latest oil-lease sale in Alaska, which of course was the biggest greatest most tremendous ever, got a “meh” from big oil. Only 0.8% of the offered leases sold, for less than a third of historical average prices and about 0.6% of the prices King Con had budgeted.

    https://www.salon.com/2017/12/09/sale-of-arctic-oil-leases-goes-bust_partner/

  2. Robert Guyton 2

    Respite from the heat and dry – it’s raining today in Riverton, thank you, Weather Lords!
    Nothing suffered in my well-protected garden, but lawns around the region were beginning to wither; pasture too. I’m talking with Tony Murrell on RadioLive at 7:20 this morning, about this and that, hence my early start; gotta coffee-up before I go on air 🙂

    • Cinny 2.1

      Sprinkling of rain here too. Just heard you on the wireless Robert 🙂 A sand beach does sound so much nicer than a sand pit, love your work, enjoy your day.

    • mary_a 2.2

      Robert (2) … can you send some of the wet stuff to Cromwell please. It’s soooo dry here and the wind isn’t helping either! Pleased to hear your garden didn’t suffer too much.

      Had a downfall early yesterday morning, but it wasn’t enough to do much good. But then I guess a little is better than nothing.
      Cheers

  3. Andre 3

    Oh fuck. Gun nuts in New Zealand seem to want to take a leaf out of the NRA book.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/99636184/frustrated-at-moves-to-tighten-gun-controls-firearms-owners-are-mobilising

    Just a reminder of what other kinds of antisocial behaviour that dude David Tipple gets up to, when he’s not trying to put up a facade of being a fine upstanding citizen.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11743823

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11534286

    • Cinny 3.1

      Dang, cheers for the links Andre, david tipple seems to think he is above the law.

      • joe90 3.1.1

        The prick thinks he’s is above the law,

        14:43, Jan 31 2009

        CONTROVERSIAL gun dealer David Tipple is facing charges over a car chase which saw police officers allegedly pursue a suped-up Nissan at speeds of up to 180km/h.

        Tipple who spent 21 months in US jail cells on gun charges in 2002 and 2003 is due to appear at Christchurch District Court on Wednesday, facing charges of reckless driving and failure to stop for police in relation to the June 10 incident.

        The Christchurch gunshop owner was arrested after police allegedly chased the Nissan car on roads between Tokoroa and Rotorua.

        […]

        Tipple has been in trouble with authorities before.

        In 2002, he made international headlines when he was arrested at Los Angeles airport after US Customs officials found 29 guns in his baggage. He was also travelling with 340 rounds of live ammunition.

        Tipple was convicted of failing to notify his airline in writing about the guns and sentenced to a year in a New Mexico jail.

        A week before he was due to be released, Tipple was extradited to Georgia, where he was held for nine months over charges of illegally buying 363 guns, including rifles, shotguns and pistols.

        The charges were eventually dropped and he was allowed to return to New Zealand.

        In 1992, he was acquitted of shooting and wounding three burglars who ran from his farm shed after trying to steal motorcycles.

        At the trial, the Crown accepted Tipple intended to shoot over the offenders’ heads and had not seen one of them.

        He was acquitted on all charges.

        http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-news/latest-edition/583893/Reckless-driving-sees-gun-dealer-in-the-docks-again

    • Keepcalmcarryon 3.2

      Buggar all mention of David tipple in that stuff article at a skim.
      Don’t think they are all gun nuts either, our firearm laws have been working extremely well for the law abiding. The police association without fail bangs the regulation drum, even when it is very clear the big problem is criminals and illegal guns, they just have to actually do their job better, and have some firmer penalties for the crims via the courts.

      In response, Loder cites OIA information showing that of the last 100 firearms-related violent crimes, only two were recorded as involving a military-style semi-automatic. Out of all of these cases, only one offender held a firearms licence.

      So the Police Associations’ push to have all firearms registered feels particularly offensive. Why would criminals register illegal firearms?”

      • Andre 3.2.1

        Big photo with this caption: “Gun City owner David Tipple: “What is the result of someone having better knowledge of firearms? Do they turn into mass murders or do they turn into better members of society?” “. Further down there’s several paragraphs including this gem: “This week, Tipple remains forthright and unrepentant: ” he argues that training children to use firearms responsibly is a public service. “What is the result of someone having better knowledge of firearms? Do they turn into mass murders or do they turn into better members of society? Isn’t that a better question to ask?” ” . Together with a whole lot of special pleading that because his daughter went to the Olympics in shooting that must make him a special person.

        If all firearms get registered, then possession of an unregistered firearm becomes an easy way to identify and put away a particularly nasty kind of criminal. It really doesn’t look like any kind of imposition on a responsible owner.

        • joe90 3.2.1.1

          So the Police Associations’ push to have all firearms registered feels particularly offensive.

          The Police Associations’ push to have all firearms registered feels particularly offensive because the owner of the firearm will be held to account by having to explain just how their firearm happened to be in the possession of the offender.

          tifify
          /

          • Andre 3.2.1.1.1

            Yep, that too.

          • joe90 3.2.1.1.2

            3.2.1.1 @ Keepcalmcarryon

            • Keepcalmcarryon 3.2.1.1.2.1

              We had individual registration of firearms and have moved to vetting and registering owners as a safer bet.
              It’s worked extremely well. Conversely policing and containment of organized crime and gangs has not.
              Attempts to license individual guns now would drive many underground.
              Personal freedoms ( I wouldn’t use the term rights) should only be curtailed with very good reason lest all our passtimes be regulated to the standards of the bedwetters and hand-wringers.
              I sure hope you urban keyboard warriors have been even louder in your call for regulating foreign drivers who actually are killing people.

              • Andre

                Registering guns helped a little bit. Registering owners did a bit better. Registering both guns and their owners should work even better.

                Better yet in this day of easy big data would be requiring owners to record the location of their guns at all times in a central database. Want to go hunting? Log on before you go and register your plans. Want to take your gun to the range? Log on and register the move before you go.

                The only design purpose of a gun is to kill and injure living beings. Given that a gun’s only purpose is to do harm, any concessions allowing private citizens to own and use them should be treated as an awesome privilege and responsibility. As far as I’m concerned, whinging about entirely reasonable measures should be sufficient grounds to revoke that privilege.

                • Keepcalmcarryon

                  no thanks Andre ( not my original wording 🙂 ). And the fact you and others like you think big brother controlling anyones legitimate activities like this is a good idea is a worry.
                  It shows you don’t want more control you want total control, we know where that leads.
                  I hope you are pushing for a 5 km/hr speed limit on the open road to eliminate the road toll.

                  • And the fact you and others like you think big brother controlling anyones legitimate activities like this is a good idea is a worry.

                    It wouldn’t be controlling anyone’s activities. Just holding them responsible for them.

                    It’s about being a grown up.

                    That’s nice. But what we need is for a way so that people with guns can show that they’re grown up. Just believing that people are grown up usually results in quite a lot of harm to other other people. greywarshark brought up the case where someone who was ‘grown up’ shot and killed someone because he thought he saw a deer.

                    But it’s about everyone enjoying their own freedoms without treading on others toes.

                    And that’s an emotional load of bollocks. No ones curtailing anyone’s freedoms by having better gun control.

                    • Keepcalmcarryon

                      Bollocks to that. Firearms owners are vetted to ensure they are ” grown up” gun registration has zip to do with it, don’t patronize.

                    • Firearms owners are vetted to ensure they are ” grown up” gun registration has zip to do with it, don’t patronize.

                      I, and greywarshark, gave an example of when one of those ‘grownups’ killed somebody through stupidity.

                      And, yes, gun registration is part of that ‘grown up’ bit. Being responsible for your actions, such as selling an unlicensed person a gun, is part of being grown up.

                      So that would be you patronising us and hoping that we’ll believe your BS.

                    • Keepcalmcarryon []

                      So you’ve decided that to be grown up, firearms should be individually licensed. Yes that is the definition of patronizing

                    • No. Being grown up means being responsible but that the society needs a way to hold people responsible for their actions.

                    • Keepcalmcarryon []

                      There already is? If your guns are licensed and stored legally and stolen, how is the owner any more or less personally responsible?

                    • There already is? If your guns are licensed and stored legally and stolen, how is the owner any more or less personally responsible?

                      No there isn’t. If there was then that person who sold guns to an unlicensed person who then used those guns to kill two people wouldn’t have been able to do so as there would have been an immediate check.

                      Yes, he broke the law and two people died because he did. the reason why he managed to break the law in the first place was because there wasn’t enough checks. Gun registration adds that needed extra check.

                  • So, licencing both firearms owners and their firearms would be big brother controlling everyone’s activities? Have you raised with your MP the Orwellian nightmare you’re currently being subjected to, of having to have a driver’s licence and licence your vehicles?

                    • Keepcalmcarryon

                      No. Logging on and off a data base to let authorities know your whereabouts as suggested by Andre ( or similar bed wetter) is orwellian bullshit though

                    • So, no problem licencing gun owners and guns then, just don’t monitor their movements? Sounds fine to me – what’s all the argument about, then?

                    • Keepcalmcarryon []

                      I’m not personally per se against licensing individual guns thanks for asking. 🙂 I’m against unnecessary or mis targeted regulation. Especially given a) police previously had individual registration and didn’t want it
                      B) there will be some issues implementing it ( guns underground)
                      C) police don’t use current information they have on record
                      D) being individually licensed doesn’t stop theft or gangs or organized crime which are the actual issue

                    • Andre

                      The point is logging the whereabouts of a deadly weapon. Also making it easy to check that when someone is out and about with a deadly weapon that it’s all properly checked and being used for a planned legitimate purpose. Just like cops have checkpoints to check that cars and drivers are licenced and wof’ed.

                      But with the added recognition that someone going somewhere with a deadly weapon probably has in mind trying to kill something in the near future.

                    • Keepcalmcarryon []

                      I take it you are vegan Andre?

                • Keepcalmcarryon

                  Plus lol at your last paragraph.
                  It’s about being a grown up.
                  I don’t like jet skis, I find them noisy, intrusive, they burn fossil fuel and have no purpose other than self entertainment. Every year they kill people. I , like you, could be a wanker and call for them to be logged on a data base and tracked, registered or banned.
                  But it’s about everyone enjoying their own freedoms without treading on others toes.
                  The fact you would revoke someone’s firearms license for pointing out some facts certainly tells us a lot about you champ.

                • One Two

                  It’s not America

                  You’re not in America

                  Your logic, as usual is incorrect because it’s not logical

                  It’s emotional!

                  • Keepcalmcarryon

                    An entire ad hominem post one two!
                    Inserting an actual argument in there might help things along a bit 🙂

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Not to mention getting up to speed with the actual hierarchy of decision making.

                    • One Two

                      Firstly – no it wasnt

                      It’s observational…and relevant to Andres circumstances…

                      Secondly – You’re doing just fine and have the perinent bases covered…

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    It’s time for your reality check.

                    …the outcome of a decision can be encoded in brain activity of prefrontal and parietal cortex up to 10 s before it enters awareness.

                    To put it bluntly, feelings provide the basis for human reason…

                    • One Two

                      Abusive, anonymous blog poster who accuses others of being ‘cowardly’ , using bare faced projection…

                      Is now offering ‘reality checks’

                      Quintessential hypocrisy

                      And almost a complete lack of awareness

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Sure, whatever.

                      Now though, when you post vacuous drivel about the relationship between emotions and logic, you won’t have your ignorance to use as an excuse.

                • greywarshark

                  Andre
                  You have to ensure you have full flak jacket on when questioning gun owners and users to protect you from their attempts to bypass your rational sensible points. So I suggest that they will say in aggrieved tones that there is such a thing as target shooting, that is not aimed at a living thing. But then there is the truth that they are all wanting to make a hole in something, which is the basic thing for all shooting really.

                  But while thinking about projectile casting in a wider way. Besides guns, paint balls, trebuchet (now found on web games), slingshots (David), bowling cricket balls at people and building expertise in fast delivery to 50?km and how to direct the projectile to force a defensive response coupled with a returning attack. There is an inherent right in the minds of some males to be aggressive and accepting it’s possibly deadly and causing destruction. I noticed the lack of true remorse by the shooter who disobeyed the precautionary rule of protection and safety of others and shot dead a woman cleaning her teeth outside a hut.

                  • Andre

                    Oh yeah, I put my nomex undies on before making those kinds of comments. But I really don’t feel the need to respond when others start ad-homming me. Particularly if they don’t respond to points with an actual argument and throw up a strawman instead.

                    • greywarshark

                      And it seems to me on a straw poll of one that when trying to discuss guns and their control there is some visceral turmoil about lack of personhood for those being controlled. It seems to come from a position of weakness.

              • joe90

                Personal freedoms ( I wouldn’t use the term rights) should only be curtailed

                Arse. Being held responsible for the weapons you own ain’t curtailing anything.

                Attempts to license individual guns now would drive many underground.

                So you admit you’re prepared to break laws you find too onerous …righto, crim…

                btw, this bed wetting hand wringing urban keyboard warrior has been involved in bird/game/pest, small/smooth/full bore indoor/clay/range shooting and club/range operations off and on for close to sixty years.

                • Keepcalmcarryon

                  there seems more emotion than any actual fact coming from your direction joe90.
                  After semi autos were registered in nz many went missing to turn up on the black market, its simple fact. Unfortunately for your argument it doesn’t make me a Crim 🙁 just someone who is old enough to have heard pretty much every argument over the years, look at police history: anti registry now pro registry , abd they still don’t use the resources they have.

                  • joe90

                    Unfortunately for your argument it doesn’t make me a Crim

                    Objecting to legislation that would hold the owners of individual firearms responsible for their weapon’s whereabouts and threatening to break the law if you are held responsible by legislation…

                    …walks like a duck, quacks like a duck..

                    • Keepcalmcarryon

                      I never threatened anything. Re read my post. Shame there is no eye roll emoji

                    • joe90

                      I never threatened anything.

                      Saying attempts to license individual guns now would drive many underground sounds awfully like a threat to break the law.

                    • Keepcalmcarryon []

                      Only if you are mentally impaired

                    • Keepcalmcarryon []

                      Actually it occurs to me that you really might not be putting 2 and 2 together , I’ll explain:
                      When semi autos moved to Ecat , a per gun cost to license them was involved. Probably due to this cost, many never got registered and ended up on the black market.
                      If we do a similar thing now , nit all guns will end up registered for some cost would be an issue, others simple forgetfulness ( minding parents guns etc), so the pool of underground weapons would grow in the short term at least.

                    • joe90

                      Budding crim who objects to being held responsible by threatening to break the the law, won’t take responsibility for it’s utterances, goes all ad hom.

                      Sad.

                      edit:

                      Probably due to this cost, many never got registered and ended up on the black market.

                      Apologist, too.

                    • Keepcalmcarryon []

                      Ok mentally impaired it is

                    • joe90

                      Got nothing, huh.

                      Weak.

                    • ropata

                      Let’s not bother to pass laws, because killer dogs, bad drivers, gangsters will just go underground 🙄

                  • After semi autos were registered in nz many went missing to turn up on the black market, its simple fact. Unfortunately for your argument it doesn’t make me a Crim…

                    It doesn’t unless you were one of those people who sold or bought a semi-auto on the black market, in which case it very much would make you a crim.

                    Your argument effectively is that many firearms owners are not only irresponsible, but have no problem with engaging in criminal acts. All thatt tells me is that we need way more rigorous controls on them (both the gun enthusiasts and the guns).

                    • Your argument effectively is that many firearms owners are not only irresponsible, but have no problem with engaging in criminal acts. All thatt tells me is that we need way more rigorous controls on them (both the gun enthusiasts and the guns).

                      QFT

                    • Keepcalmcarryon

                      This is how you get bad laws and sub optimal compliance. Bring in unneeded laws because you know better.
                      No one has refuted the actual points I’ve made, just emotive high horse gibberish.
                      How does individual gun rego solve the issue of gangs organized crime and theft?

                    • This is how you get bad laws and sub optimal compliance. Bring in unneeded laws because you know better.

                      More bollocks. How you get suboptimal laws is by not making in the first place and making up excuses as to why it’s all too hard – exactly as you have been.

                      No one has refuted the actual points I’ve made, just emotive high horse gibberish.

                      Actually, several people have – several times. You have only come back with meaningless clichés that are simply wrong.

                      The mistake that you’re making is thinking that laws are made for the majority of people. They’re not. The majority of people will act responsibly and morally without laws.

                      The laws are made for those, who without laws, will act immorally and irresponsibly. The laws let these people know what actions are acceptable and which aren’t and what the consequences are for acting badly. They remove the excuse that they didn’t know better.

                      How does individual gun rego solve the issue of gangs organized crime and theft?

                      It doesn’t. But it does mean that when the police go into a gang headquarters and finds guns that aren’t registered that they can then do something about it. Without laws saying that you can’t have an unregistered gun they can’t.

                    • Keepcalmcarryon []

                      Straw man says what? A bunch of illegal guns in a gang headquarters and the cops can’t do anything? But if they were registered they could?
                      Reeeeeally?
                      I gave you more credit.

                    • A bunch of illegal guns in a gang headquarters and the cops can’t do anything?

                      How do you determine if they’re illegal?

                      They may be suspicious but that doesn’t make them illegal. After all, someone in the house may actually have a gun licence for all the guns. And that would make them legal.

                      Just because it’s a gang headquarters doesn’t mean that they’re breaking the law (and any gang headquarters that actually had illegal arms in it are run by a bunch of amateurs).

                      This seems to be a major problem with some people. They think just because someone’s in a gang that they’re automatically breaking the law and should be jailed. Oh, and that police officers can automatically tell just by looking at someone that they’re a criminal and that they should be charged straight away.

                      Actual rule of law requires proof and proper process.

                      But if they were registered they could?

                      It would make it easier to determine. Instantaneous in fact. Rather than having to go through a long investigation.

                    • McFlock

                      A bunch of illegal guns in a gang headquarters and the cops can’t do anything? But if they were registered they could?

                      Cops come across illegal weapons during a search. All they’d have on that weapon is a serial number, if it was manufactured legitimately somewhere.

                      That might track which factory it came from. But with registration of the firearm, the can track who the last owner in NZ was, and trace the firearm back to a burglary. Or ask the registered owner questions, if it wasn’t lost in a burglary. Either way, it provides more information about firearms trafficking networks than “entered NZ 5 years ago, turned up in a search of a dope house”.

                    • Keepcalmcarryon []

                      Possibly, Mcflock although it didn’t stop the guns being stolen or 3 d printed.
                      How is the police burglary resolution rate these days?

                    • McFlock

                      If the burgs were resolved, the guns would have been recovered for their legal owners.

                      It might not prevent firearms being stolen, but it gives you a definite start point for figuring out how the gun ended up being recovered in a raid. Not “I sold it to a guy on trademe” or whatever – you were definitely the last one to have it legitimately, how did it get from your safe to that drug den?

                      3d printing is basically the 21st centuray equivalent of zip guns: possible, cheap, but pointless unless you’re a kid. But even then it creates a network that can be attacked, a bit like hunting down the p-cooks.

        • greywarshark 3.2.1.2

          I always think it is important to contain the number of tipples.

        • Draco T Bastard 3.2.1.3

          If all firearms get registered, then possession of an unregistered firearm becomes an easy way to identify and put away a particularly nasty kind of criminal. It really doesn’t look like any kind of imposition on a responsible owner.

          QFT

          Registering of the weapons is so obviously the right thing to do as well as having arms licensing.

          • Keepcalmcarryon 3.2.1.3.1

            DTB
            Such calls for registration seem to ignore previous police behavior: ( from wiki)
            “Increasing gun crime in the 1960s led to greater police use of registration records, which were generally inaccurate or out-of-date. A project to check the register began in 1967, and found that 66 percent of entries were inaccurate in some way, with many guns not to be found at all. Police thought that the register was largely useless, and that substantial resources would be needed to keep it up-to-date. It was believed that the government would be unlikely to provide the resources required to update the register and that it would be politically difficult to demand registration information from firearm owners. Various new laws were introduced in the 1970s and 80s, proposing more government checks, registration of shotguns (which had been abandoned) and individual licensing.

            An internal police report in 1982 criticised the proposals, saying there was no evidence that registration of guns helped to solve crimes, and that registration would use time and money better spent on other police work. This policy was adopted by the government in the 1983 Act.[5]

            Arms Act 1983 Edit
            The 1983 Arms Act abandoned registration for most long guns, as Parliament felt it was prohibitively expensive and not particularly useful. The philosophy of the new system was to control users, rather than firearms. “

            • Draco T Bastard 3.2.1.3.1.1

              You may not have noticed but it’s no longer the 1960s and that we have better information systems now.

              • Keepcalmcarryon

                Oh really?
                How did the cops rock up to a firearms complaint at Quin Pattersons place in northland and leave without checking, when he had no gun license and a record of stabbing a police officer? Nutter goes on to murder 2.
                Having a bunch of numbers on each gun won’t stop the gross incompetence of the police, an issue then and obviously still an issue now

                • Shifting the goal posts I see. First it was inaccurate records and now it’s police incompetence.

                  I’m more interested in the fact that someone sold guns to him despite him not having a licence. Gun registration would help prevent that because the change in ownership would have to be recorded – like car registration. If someone tries to sell someone without a licence a gun then that will show up and if they don’t transfer ownership then when a crime happens with the gun involved the previpous owners have to explain how they lost the weapon and didn’t report it. Again, that comes down to having better information systems.

                  Better information systems can even, to a large degree, prevent incompetence.

                  • Keepcalmcarryon

                    Assuming police check their records of course.

                    • Keepcalmcarryon

                      If your argument was the police need good records, then it’s pretty clear they don’t utilize the records they have, hope that’s clear.

                    • solkta

                      What is clear is that you are talking twaddle.

                    • Keepcalmcarryon []

                      Thanks for your valuable contribution

                    • David Mac

                      This may well be a stupid idea and I just can’t see why yet….

                      It’s getting cheaper and easier to give items a tag that can be monitored via satellite. eg: I can follow my stolen car on my phone via the chip I stashed up under the dash.

                      What would happen if every new or registered firearm was required to have such an embedded tag? Authorities would be able to see a number firearms together in a property that has been checked for a secure gunsafe and the occupant a registered and licensed owner, the model/serial numbers of the weapons visible on the screen. The cops would never have a reason to knock on that guy’s door. But if he flips out and is on his way to sort out the guy sleeping with his wife, the cops can monitor his movements if he chooses to take a gun along.

                      Find an unchipped firearm, big penalties. If it’s a legal model, govt can chip it and sell it. If it can’t be chipped, crush em.

                      Changes to gun laws stand a better chance of popular buy-in if they’re viewed by the good guys as positive moves and right royal pains in the arse by the Baddies.

                    • If your argument was the police need good records

                      It’s not. It’s that they need a good information system which includes gun licences and registered guns.

                      If the police are sent to an address then all the information about that address should come before them. That’s what a good information system would do including if registered gun/s and owners are at that address or not. If the latter and it’s a firearms complaint then there should be large flashing lights on the display.

                      If they then fail to read it and act upon the information then it’s incompetence and they should probably be fired. Culture in the police about proper response can also be changed. We change things to make them better and not whinge that it’s just too hard.

                    • Keepcalmcarryon []

                      Fully agree with most of that

                  • Keepcalmcarryon

                    It’s already illegal to not report a lost firearm and already illegal to sell to someone without a license.
                    All the same as I’ve said I’m not against the individual gun licensing per se. Unfortunately when we have tossers who view all guns as evil ( designed to harm) their motive will be to increase compliance costs and try and prevent ownership and this is a step on that path ; hello Andre who would revoke a gun license for not agreeing with him)
                    Hence if it isn’t a particularly necessary regulation it needs to be justified not moralized in to force.

                    • It’s already illegal to not report a lost firearm and already illegal to sell to someone without a license.

                      Yep, it is. But is that the only point where we want the checks? Would those two women still be alive if we had a better change of ownership system?

                      I think we need more checks.

                      Unfortunately when we have tossers who view all guns as evil ( designed to harm) their motive will be to increase compliance costs and try and prevent ownership and this is a step on that path ;

                      1. Guns actually are designed to cause harm
                      2. Considering the price of guns I doubt adding a little more for legal process is going to stop people owning them

                      Hence if it isn’t a particularly necessary regulation it needs to be justified not moralized in to force.

                      /facepalm

                      The morality is the justification.

                      Or is it that you think carrying out immoral actions is all fine and dandy?

                    • Keepcalmcarryon []

                      brilliant thank you.
                      It’s about inflicting your morals on others.
                      The least nice side of ” left” politics.

    • Morrissey 3.3

      Couldn’t we send these morons to the Auckland Islands and just let them shoot each other until there’s none of them left?

      • Andre 3.3.1

        Meh. Hard to see much merit in that. On the other hand, the proposal that was going around for open carry at the Republican National Convention last year could have made quite a spectacle.

    • bwaghorn 3.4

      i just had my 10 year renewal and was asked if i would let them record the rego no’s on each rifle which i had no problem with , and would go so far as to say any one refusing to let them record them should not have their licence renewed.

  4. savenz 4

    Scary stuff

    Fact Check: MSNBC’s Palestinian loss of land map
    http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/check-msnbcs-palestinian/

    • joe90 4.1

      The beginnings of a BDS with bells, all the way to Coventry, I hope,

      The Trump effect: No longer just rockets from Gaza, but now also a hit to the local economy, as high-tech delegations from Japan and China canceled Thursday their trips to Israel following U.S. President Donald Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.

      The Chinese delegation cited a travel warning by the Chinese Foreign Ministry, forbidding large groups from traveling to Israel. Japan is concerned about the security situation following Trump’s announcement, and expects the conflict to impact its investment programs in Israel.

      https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.827864

  5. savenz 5

    Why Trump did it… 50 million Evangelicals in the US believe that when the world ends, they all get swept up to heaven.

    The self-fulfilling evangelical death cult prophesy that pushed Trump into declaring Jerusalem the capital of Israel

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2017/12/08/the-self-fulfilling-evangelical-death-cult-prophesy-that-pushed-trump-into-declaring-jerusalem-the-capital-of-israel/

    • joe90 5.1

      The Israeli right is more than happy to overlook the fundamentalists’ apocalyptic end-time beliefs that Jews must convert/be perfected and that Israel fits their prophesies, because they get US support for the Jewish State.

      So, red meat for the base….

      Of all the possible theological dog-whistles to his evangelical base, this is the biggest. Trump is reminding them that he is carrying out God's will to these Last Days.— Diana Butler Bass (@dianabutlerbass) December 6, 2017

      https://theconversation.com/why-trumps-evangelical-supporters-welcome-his-move-on-jerusalem-88775

      ….and tRump is the man.

      Televangelist Frank Amedia, who leads Touch Heaven Ministries in Ohio, says he was told by God last year that Donald Trump would be the GOP presidential nominee and he believes God “raised up” the real estate mogul to help pave the way for the Second Coming.

      Amedia, who is described in a Time magazine report as Trump’s new “liaison for Christian policy,” made the revelation in an interview with Steve Strang, founder of the Pentecostal magazine Charisma.

      https://www.christianpost.com/news/televangelist-frank-amedia-god-donald-trump-second-coming-164922/

      Trump’s ideas meld perfectly with evangelical apocalyptic expectations as the battle of Armageddon nears. He promises to seize power and to use it for them. He claims he would restore religious liberty to evangelicals. He would prohibit Muslims from entering the country. He would defend Israel at all costs. He would fight abortion by adding conservative justices to the U.S. Supreme Court. He would rebuild the American military. He would destroy the nation’s enemies. He would keep individual citizens well-armed and prepared for battle.

      This is a man, in other words, who is not just seeking to beat Clinton. He is seeking to wage a real-world battle against evangelicals’ enemies and a spiritual battle against the Antichrist.

      And this is why Amedia tells all who will listen that to support Trump is to ensure that the United States “stays under the favor of God.” To refuse to support Trump, then, is to defy God.

      If Armageddon is coming, and many evangelicals believe it is, there can be no one better to lead the United States than Donald Trump.

      https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/donald-trump-the-herald-of-evangelicals-end-times/

    • Cinny 5.2

      and they are milking it flat out via the youtube, unreal, videos abound have been uploaded and created in the last few days pushing that narrative and judging from the views and comments they are lapping it up over there. Check out the flag in the background of this clip, giving the idea that not believing is un-americian.

      PS love that graphic they used on TDB.

    • Sabine 5.3

      can’t wait for it to happen here lol, we get all their left behind stuff.

      Also their faces when they realise they have been left behind to deal with the mess they have created.

      If ever you come across one of these guys just ask ‘what makes you think that you won’t be left behind’. the look of fear is down right funny if it were’nt so sad.

    • joe90 5.4

      And sure enough.

      #breaking someone has attempted to burn down the synagogue in Gothenburg by throwing Molotov cocktails,police are on the scene. This comes after several days of hate crimes toward Jews across Europe #Jerusalem #antisemitism #Sweden #JerusalemEmbassy https://t.co/orlXX4Jvad— Annika H Rothstein (@truthandfiction) December 9, 2017

      https://www.thelocal.se/20171209/anti-semitic-chants-reported-at-malm-demonstration

      https://www.timesofisrael.com/firebombs-hurled-at-synagogue-in-sweden-after-protest-march-over-jerusalem/

  6. The first post-election Colmar Brunton poll (they now poll 50% mobile phones):

    – National 46% (election 44.4%)
    – Labour 39% (election 36.9%)
    – NZ First 5% (election 7.2%)
    – Greens 7% (election 6.3%)
    – TOP 1% (election 2.4%)
    – Maori Party 1% (election 1.2%)
    – ACT NR (election 0.5%)

    Is New Zealand heading in the right direction?
    – Right direction 51%
    – Wrong direction 26%
    – Don’t know 27%

    Preferred Prime Minister:
    – Jacinda Ardern 37%
    – Bill English 28%
    – Winston Peters 5%

    • Ed 6.1

      3 key facts

      39% + 5% + 7% = 51% vs National’s 46%
      51% say New Zealand heading in the right direction
      Bill at 28%….

      • Pete George 6.1.1

        They’re not facts, they’re poll measurements of opinion with a +/- 3.3% margin of error (at 50%).

        But there’s some positives for most in this poll, like Ardern clearly ahead on preferred Prime Minister, Labour stil improving, Greens apparently recovering from the party death zone. National should also be happy.

        • Incognito 6.1.1.1

          If in a poll of 1,000 people 500 give a certain answer that is a fact. This specific measurement has a measurement error of zero. Assuming that certain criteria are met this sample can be used to predict the mean of the whole population, i.e. as if the whole population was polled. The population mean will lie between the margins of error with 95% confidence. That is a fact too. It does not matter what the question was that they were polling on; (the) facts remain facts.

        • Draco T Bastard 6.1.1.2

          They’re facts in the same way that a jury decision is a fact – beyond reasonable doubt.

        • Ed 6.1.1.3

          ‘Poll: Voters broadly say yes to new government

          That majority has grown. The average of the three post-government-formation polls has given National 42.4%, 11% behind the three-way government’s total of 53.4%: Labour 39.3%, Greens 8.6% and New Zealand First 5.5%. A Labour-Green-only combination has a clear 5.5% lead over National.’

          http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/345867/poll-voters-broadly-say-yes-to-new-government

          • Pete George 6.1.1.3.1

            I think that’s a bit presumptuous.

            I think that most people are likely to still be in wait-and-see mode.

            Next week’s mini-budget will give the first real indication of how the Government intends to proceed on the big issues, but that will be in lot of pre-Christmas noise.

            Then it’s wait-and-see how the Government kicks off the new year in late January/February, and it will take another month or two to see how that plays out in the polls.

      • James 6.1.2

        Indeed it does. But if NZF drop a point the. You are down to 46 all.

        Not a lot of wiggle room there for the government. And this is when they are supposed to get the post election bounce.

        Oh well perhaps a vogue photo shoot will help.

        • Incognito 6.1.2.1

          Voting in Parliament depends on the allocation of MPs (seats) as determined by the General Election (closed) on 23 September 2017. If our politics were to be decided by opinion polls we all would be vomiting our guts out (get it?) form the nauseating turbulence and sporadic weightlessness.

    • dv 6.2

      Sorta looks like NZ1 went back? to Natz and Green recovered from Lab.

      • red-blooded 6.2.1

        “Green recovered from Lab”..? Hey, Labour’s up, not down. Not up much, but up.

        We would all have liked a bigger bounce, but given the narrative about a “stolen election”, “coalition of the losers” etc, this is OK. The challenge, of course, is to build on this next year and beyond.

    • bwaghorn 6.3

      that tells me that only 2% of nzf supporters like the nats , that must be why winston went left

      • David Mac 6.3.1

        Yes, that’s how I read it too, or were dirty enough on NZ1st for running left to withdraw their support. There will be some that surmised: ‘Jacinda! Oh ok, lets give this a go then.’

        That 2% that have left the NZ1st tally, I wonder if they’re people who would be attracted to claims like: “There will be no more sitting on the couch.”

    • Bearded Git 6.4

      @pete george hopefully this will entice National to keep Bill as leader.

      • Pete George 6.4.1

        I think it’s likely to reduce the chances of thoughts on alternative leaders over the holidays.

        I think that English is probably good for another 6-12 months.

  7. eco maori 7

    Many thanks to the Australian rugby league for taking the lead and having a Lady’s league competition Ka pai. Maybe NZ rugby union will follow suit and start a Lady’s competition this is what is need to help OUR Lady’s to get equality.

    On Q an A I see Jacinda has risen in popularity to 36%,and I say with a logical sceptical process that if the leader rises in popularity that so will her party look at the people on Q an A they can not look straight when they are taking negative about our new coalition government what a national puppet programme it has a blue screen background. Because we are losing faith in these pollsters companies colmar Braunton they are trying to get some Mana back but I say that they are just national puppet to I can see it a mile away and Corin Dan he is a national puppet to muppet Ana to kai

  8. Ed 8

    ON RNZ this morning at 10 a.m.

    ‘The number of children having rotting teeth surgically removed has doubled in the past 10 years, costing the taxpayer $4000 a pop. Many dentists say it’s all down to sugar, especially sugary drinks. Calls for a tax on sugary drinks are mounting, but the previous government wouldn’t entertain the idea. New health minister David Clark says he wants better access to more affordable dental care, less sugar in food and better labelling. Dental Association spokesman Dr Rob Beaglehole sees the effects of sugary drinks every day, having to extract whole sets of teeth from children as young as 18 months.’

    • Sabine 8.1

      diet for sure will have an impact, but also lack of access to dentists and specialist. Also costs.

      To go to a specialist dentist in NZ you might as well offer your firstborn as an offering to Baal.

    • greywarshark 8.2

      Ed
      Parent support and regular group meetings of new parents especially mothers where they are taught about nutrition and good health by people of their own ethnicity or those they feel a rapport with, not middle class types preaching down to the masses approach, that would start off with good habits and break peer pressure ideas – if everyone does it then hard to break. It is no doubt a way of pleasing kids, giving them something to calm them. It is finding alternatives, ie if they have a bottle they cart around with them as toddlers just have water in it right from the start.

    • David Mac 8.3

      Coke at $50 a bottle would see those sachets of fine sugar cordial powder flying off the shelves. The elephant is in our mouths.

      We’ve got to stop filling the tanks of our organic Ferraris with Kero.

      • And what makes those sachets of flavoured sugar any less of a sugary drink?

        • David Mac 8.3.1.1

          Yes, that’s my point. The things aren’t at the core of what ails us. It’s what we do with the things that requires our attention.

          Coke or Raro are not evil. Fabulous for Birthday parties. Moaning about the availability of dentists as I fill my toddler’s bottle with L&P doesn’t sit squarely with me.

          • Draco T Bastard 8.3.1.1.1

            Yes, that’s my point. The things aren’t at the core of what ails us. It’s what we do with the things that requires our attention.

            That can’t possibly have been your point. If a bottle of coke is $50 then a sachet of Raro will also be $50 as both are a bottle of sugary drink.

            Making both $50 will stop them going off the shelves. The corporations will complain about it for sure but then they don’t actually have the right to poison us.

            Coke or Raro are not evil. Fabulous for Birthday parties.

            Yeah they are and no they’re not. Much better to serve fruit juice (which is also a sugary drink but it also has other stuff in it which actually makes it a food which neither Raro nor coke is). Or just soda water with some real fruit flavouring but without the sugar.

            Moaning about the availability of dentists as I fill my toddler’s bottle with L&P doesn’t sit squarely with me.

            Now that is a valid point.

      • Ed 8.3.2

        Interesting documentary on Coca Cola

        • David Mac 8.3.2.1

          If on a search for a neoliberal framework worthy of dismantling I think there are few better examples than Coca Cola Inc.

          I love my iPhone, it’s a product that assists me. Thanks Apple. But $2 for flavoured water? A corporation that enjoyed popular initial support with the claim that their product relieved fatigue. Drinks laced with cocaine will do that.

          Their marketing machine surfs along on it’s wave of perfect 16 year old complexions and promises of an endless Summer. When a corporation is spending more money on getting me to buy their product than the product costs to produce….adjustments are required.

    • McFlock 8.4

      Fluoridation should be a ministry of health requirement, too, not a local authority option.

      • Ed 8.4.1

        Banning sugary drinks should be a ministry of health priority.
        Start at the top of the cliff.
        You only need to protect teeth with fluoride if they e been damaged by sugar.

        • McFlock 8.4.1.1

          Sugar is in everything, not just drinks.

          Yes, drinks need to be addressed, but our low natural fluoride levels in water are like our low iodine levels in everything else.

  9. savenz 9

    Completely normal seeming American’s, believe that anyone who does not agree with Trump is the devil. Scary stuff, pleased I don’t have to live in US. Must be hard if you are not a believer…

    Saying that the lefties play right into the righties hands by being evangelical about globalism and identity politics. Not ok for Israelis to take over Palestinian land and assets but is ok for other Nationalities to arrive in NZ and do that.

    Soon the powerful will be damming the water for their cruise ships, dairy farms, water bottling plants and mansion swimming pools and our council, iwi, and government representatives will be holding the towels and saying ‘no problem’, locally born less competitive people, need austerity and to tighten up and of course to pay more taxes and get on those work for dole schemes so they have something to do. Anyone lucky enough to be in a local job should be paying more taxes as there’s so much infrastructure and houses to create for their brave new world.

    Environment out the window, because money talks and our leftie representatives will all be saying how great it is so many women are represented in parliament and we can’t say no to a trade agreement, we are exporters (Even though increasingly the exporters are not domiciled in NZ for tax purposes and are exporting profits not physical goods or services or even live here).

    Then concentrating on the “global presence” with photo ops and taking about ‘solving poverty’ or ‘climate change’ like John Key rather than the domestic situation which like in Miss world beauty contests has become meaningless like ‘world peace’. Nice words and well meant but not actually having much to do with the beauty pageant.

    Meanwhile people with different opinions are denied assess at the border to world events like WHO or 170 environmental defenders murdered. That’s our new democracy. It’s kinda become narrower who democracy applies to these days.

  10. eco maori 10

    The way I see it our fuel company CEO are m8 with joyce and key and they are deliberately jacking up the price of our fuel so we have less money to spend and retailers will see a drop in income and national will try and ride this as a negative thing to attack our new coalition government Mana. But let’s look for the positive things in this scenario we will use less fuel we will import less fuel so our import export balance will move in our favour as it always does under labour. All so we will consume less goods and this is positive for our country and mother nature our environment Kai kaha

    • eco maori 10.1

      Q and A saying our government is anti immigrants well thats crap they want to control immigration so we get people that won’t displace the local people and will benefit us all WTF Ana to kai

      • ropata 10.1.1

        “Anti immigrant” is such a loaded bullshit #dirtypolitics lie.
        Pro sustainability, Pro Kiwi workers, Anti homelessness, Anti overpopulation, etc.

  11. Tanz 11

    Ah, Christmas has come early; Colman Brunton poll just out: National well in the lead and no bounce for Labour, stagnant, NZ First near the 5 per cent threshold
    and the Greens on a mere 7 per cent. So there was no vote for change, the vote was and still is, for National! National will indeed be thrilled, thrilled, thrilled, the majority have endorsed them, once again.

    A new govt is supposed to get a big bounce…what happened? oh yes, ‘MMP (Winston) decided’! (instead of the people…).

    • dv 11.1

      HUH TANZ
      Majority >50% still

      And all within margin of error too.

    • joe90 11.2

      Long wait till 2020.

    • JanM 11.3

      Doesn’t really matter, does it – you’re stuck with ‘the good guys’ for another 3 years, he he

    • millsy 11.4

      It seems that the majority of this country is comfortable with homelessness, low wages, high rents, poisoned rivers, privatised water reticulation, closure of the rail network, privatisation, erosion of workers rights, commodification of education, running down of services and the like.

      Sad really.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 11.5

      Bill English 28%
      Jacinda Ardern 38%

      Long wait ’til 2026.

    • Incognito 11.6

      Rumour has it that Neil Armstrong always entered a home with his left foot first and always wiped his feet.

    • red-blooded 11.7

      Tanz, a couple of things you need to notice:
      1) Labour went up 2.1% (6% of their election result), National are up 1.4% (3% of their election result).
      2) All three coalition partners are still over the 5% threshold (although NZF will need to get some wins on the board to show their constituents that they are getting what they campaigned for).
      3) (And this is the big one) National need to find a way to play nice with NZF, because they can’t win on their own and ACT are a sick joke.

      This misunderstanding of the meaning of the word “majority” really is causing you guys some pain, isn’t it?

    • Ed 11.8

      ‘The majority have endorsed them’

      46 % is not above half.
      This may help you understand some simple Maths.

    • National well in the lead

      No, they’re still losing.

    • Grey Area 11.10

      Zzzz……

    • One Two 11.11

      instead of the people

      NZ1 voters are not people..

      Latest poll = early Christmas

      Tanz, be more honest with yourself

    • repateet 11.12

      I checked on the 10 Commandments list, in the Quran, in the Road Code and in Dr Seuss yet nowhere could I find that a new govt is supposed to get a big bounce.

      • Incognito 11.12.1

        Good one!

        Actually, it is in the DP Manifesto that used to reside in John Key’s top drawer on the ninth floor with a sham cover labelled Cabinet Manual. Apparently, there a few copies still in circulation …

  12. eco maori 12

    Good on Lisa Owen from the nation for holding bill to account for his failure to our the vulnerable people of our country. Andrew beercroft well many thanks to him for standing up for the poor valuerable people once again. And there you go the cops not doing there job and the IPCA Covering there ass this poor man was raped probably by pee heads and they just ignore him WTF many thanks to Lisa an the nation for a fear program . Kai Kaha

    • eco maori 12.1

      Now they are harassing my wife on the way to Rotorua what low down ass holes they are kai kaha

  13. Morrissey 13

    Hands up everyone who detests NewstalkZB.
    Well, there was one bit of good news just before noon on Monday.

    NewstalkZB, Monday 4 December 2017

    During this show, the cranky Trump-worshipper and science-denier Leighton Smith spends much of his time insisting that the Groper in Chief in Washington is the target of a conspiracy, and a victim of fake news rather than a perpetrator of it.

    LEIGHTON SMITH: …. But when you’re talking about the um, the most powerful position in the world, AND it still is, AND it will continue to be for the moment, ahhhmmm, by the way on that point there’s an ANNOUNCEMENT I need to make, ahhhmmm, just a small one in a MINUTE. Ahhhhhm…[extended pause]… THEN, is of interest to ANYBODY who cares about what happens in the world….

    …..

    My program will come to an eeennnnd…SOON. But not as soon as SOME would HOPE!

    ….

    And this is the sort of thing that CNN, NBC, C—, uuummmm, and ABC have been doing for soooommme… considerable time. Did I miss anybody out? [extended intake of breath] Creating false illusions, reporting things as fact that aren’t, and every time that someth—, that TRUMP calls it fake news, the chances are he’s more correct than otherwise.

    Shortly after, this stream of muddled semi-cosciousness is interrupted by a caller, who wants to speak to the great thinker about a leader a little closer to home….

    CALLER: I just wonder why New Zealand’s worrying its provincial head about something that’s out of our control, when we have the issue with John Key last week, um, lying about the mass surveillance program, and that got no commentary at all.

    LEIGHTON SMITH: Un— about WHAT? Program, WHAT?

    CALLER: The mass—-

    BEEEP. Burr, Burr…

    LEIGHTON SMITH: Arrrggghh. Thanks for nothing. Ahhhm, I had NO IDEA what he was talking about. And I didn’t hang up on him, he went….

    Now it’s strange that Leighton Smith should be unaware of that scoop in the Herald last week by its investigative reporter David Fisher, suggesting John Key might have misled New Zealanders in 2014 about his government’s mass surveillance plans. As Leighton Smith went on to say later in his show that day, he works “shoulder to shoulder” with the folks at the Herald and NewstalkZB these days….

    LEIGHTON SMITH: Ahhh, in this new building that we’ve now been in for two years, it has actually been a completely different atmosphere. Working in the same environment as people from the Herald, aaahhhhmmm, has been an INTERESTING experience, uh, with some ups and some downs.

    And now, you ask, what was this “good news just before noon”? At the end of this show, Smith for once actually said something positive: he announced he’s leaving in one year’s time.

    You can put your hands down now.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018624577/making-plans-for-leighton

  14. Incognito 14

    Why didn’t we throw the proverbial kitchen sink at kauri dieback the second we found it, like we did with the fruit fly? The difference is obvious: the fly threatened to decimate a $6 billion industry, whereas a kauri tree is more difficult to put a dollar value on unless it’s in the form of a piece of furniture.

    A nice little write-up contrasting the efforts spent on eradicating the threat of the Queensland fruit fly versus dealing with Kauri dieback disease.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/99648794/nadine-higgins-quibbling-over-cost-while-a-killer-runs-amok

  15. eco maori 15

    I have been to busy to keep up with what happening in our political seen I say prices sugar out of reach for us pour people and this will save our mokos teeth an lower obesity us pour people are to busy trying to stay afloat than have the thought capacity to worry about diet so the state is obliged to step in and help and in the process save millions. joyces m8 at the retails association will kick up a big stink because they worship profits over humanity so________-them and make the changes needed. I agree with Jacinda that because there is not enough money that the priority is to make sure that all our mokos get a good beneficial education that gives them the tools to thrive in our society and in a few years
    Concentration on Maori language as this policy of a good for all education will benefit our mokos and our economy. Ka pai

  16. joe90 16

    Dotard is addled.

    The Fox & Friends presidency pic.twitter.com/3rGqYD5nKL— Gideon Resnick (@GideonResnick) December 9, 2017

    https://twitter.com/GideonResnick/status/939539376643739648/photo/1

  17. The Chairman 17

    Let’s do this for Helen Kelly and all those that find themselves in a similar position
    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2017/12/09/when-it-comes-to-legalising-medicinal-cannabis-what-would-helen-kelly-do/

  18. adam 18

    Cops get to kill.

    • DH 18.1

      That was awful. I don’t understand why the cop giving the orders wasn’t charged, he looked the most culpable to me.

      It looked like a bit of a setup; one guy barking conflicting instructions that a person might find impossible to follow and which could then give others in the squad the excuse to shoot.

      • joe90 18.1.1

        The thug was charged, tried and found not guilty.

        Footage of shooting, captured on two police on-body cameras, formed the foundation of the prosecution’s case. The judge did not allow jurors to hear about an etching on the dust cover of the rifle Brailsford used to shoot Shaver, which said “You’re f–ked,” because he felt it was prejudicial.

        https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/mesa-breaking/2017/12/07/philip-brailsford-verdict-daniel-shaver-killing/927052001/

        • DH 18.1.1.1

          The shooter wasn’t the person doing the talking.

          • joe90 18.1.1.1.1

            Read it again.

            Footage of shooting, captured on two police on-body cameras, formed the foundation of the prosecution’s case. The judge did not allow jurors to hear about an etching on the dust cover of the rifle Brailsford used to shoot Shaver, which said “You’re f–ked,” because he felt it was prejudicial.

            • DH 18.1.1.1.1.1

              There’s nothing to read, I made the opinion that the cop giving the orders was the most culpable. You keep linking to the cop who fired the shots.

              • joe90

                A man pleading for his life was killed but the cop barking orders was more culpable than the cop who shot him to death, Really?.

                • DH

                  Yes, really. From what I read the cop barking the orders was a sergeant and I assume the squad leader or at least senior. He was not just giving orders to the victim, he also looked to be stating aloud the circumstances under which his squad members had permission to shoot. He got the victim so terrified he didn’t know what the hell he was doing.

                • David Mac

                  I struggle to see anything other than a cop that made a very bad decision under stressful circumstances.

                  I don’t think he should walk free but locking him up for 10 years is unlikely to change much. Hopefully he’ll be appointed a Town Hall library security role….and a truncheon.

                  When you’ve had too much to drink and a man with a gun is saying ‘Keep your hands on your head or you will be shot’ it’s easy to forget just how important it is to keep your hands on your head.

                  *Note to self: When pissed in Vegas, stay in the room.

                  • DH

                    I struggle to see anything but an execution.

                    Even US cops don’t have permission to shoot people simply for disobeying an order. The order has to be legitimate most of what that cop was barking was confusing crap.

                  • Morrissey

                    My attention has just been drawn to something by “David Mac”, viz., “I struggle to see anything other than a cop that made a very bad decision under stressful circumstances.”

                    Maybe your complacent and thoughtless view of things would change if someone you cared about was murdered like that.

                    • David Mac

                      Yes it’s awful, I’ve never seen such disregard for human life. My stomach is churning. It’s disgusting that humans can treat each other like that. Yes Morrissey, you are right in assuming that I would have an enhanced emotional involvement if it was my brother that was shot.

                      Phew. Now, what are we going to do about it?

                    • Morrissey

                      Well, my friend, I think one thing we could do about it is to be honest and state plainly that the executioner is directly responsible for that killing. You seem to sympathize with him because he was being barked at and bullied by his superior officer. Why did he not simply refuse to obey that fool? Would he have been in any danger at all if he had shown some moral fibre?

                      By the way, has the learned Chris “Haw Haw” Trotter spoken or written in defence of this jury decision to acquit?

                      Open mike 19/07/2013

                    • David Mac

                      You see an executioner.

                      I see a dumb redneck cop that behaved very poorly under very stressful circumstances. Circumstances he was largely responsible for inducing. The best way to get someone to stop yelling is to whisper to them.

                      You seem quick to stand in judgement Morrissey. I’m doing the best job I can, I think I’m doing ok, I’m trying to address my shortcomings but I live in fear of appearing on your ‘Crap Dad’ list.

                    • Morrissey

                      Don’t worry, David—unless you’ve moulded a son as cowardly and as obnoxious as Max Key, as vicious and dishonest as Cameron Slater’s slave Carrick Graham or as repulsive and racist as Martin Amis, you’re not going to be on Deadbeat Dads any time soon.

                      By the way, keep your eyes peeled for No. 7—coming up tomorrow!

                    • David Mac

                      I don’t know Max, I’m not sure what’s important to him. If I had my heart set on being a DJ, I wouldn’t mind failing like him. His Dad? Booking 11am inhouse massages with illegal immigrants at Waikiki…who cares.

                      Obviously there was no getting away from being Prez but it appears to me that Key did what he could to assist his kids to be the people they wished to be. Other than ‘don’t talk with your mouth full’ etc, I think that’s the best gift we can give our kids.

      • McFlock 18.1.2

        For some police forces, yelling conflicting orders might be an actual tactic (see list point 4).

        The idea being that it disorients the person so they can’t form a plan. Apparently, it disorients them so much they get shot.

  19. Ed 19

    Why is there no mention of nitrates from dairy farms in this article by RNZ?
    Cover up?

    ‘Scientists have collected samples from algae blooms found during an inspection of Lake Taupō swimming sites this weekend.

    Algal mats and surface water bloom samples were taken from beaches at Kuratau, Mission Bay, Motutere Bay, Hatepe, Halletts Bay and Whareroa South.

    They’ll be analysed by Waikato Regional Council scientists to determine whether any are toxic.
    The council said the results should be available this afternoon.
    In the meantime people are being urged to avoid algae-affected areas; signs are up at the six beaches concerned.
    Contact with the algae mats could cause skin rashes, stomach upsets and respiratory symptoms.
    The toxic algal species often multiply to high levels during periods of warm, sunny weather.
    In lakes they can form extensive green to black-coloured mats that settle on rocks and the lake floor. Significant clumps sometimes break off and float free, collecting on the water’s edge.
    Meanwhile, organisers of this weekend’s Ironman 70.3 Taupō event made a last-minute decision to cancel the swimming portion of the race.’

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/345868/scientists-collect-lake-taupo-algae-samples

    • Ed 19.1

      Dairy intensification effects questioned.

      ‘The inaugural Critic and Conscience of Society Award winner and environmental crusader Dr Mike Joy says Wanaka needs to reduce its cow numbers and put a stop to the intensification of the dairy industry if it is to save its waterways.
      Dr Joy said a Wanaka vet told him there used to be three cows in Wanaka and he knew them each by name, now there were upwards of 30,000 cows in the area.

      “That is the kind of change we’ve had, that is the reality of it, and a lot of Southland cows are being wintered here and they don’t really count in the statistics properly but their s… sure does.”

      Dr Joy said the cows were being wintered in Upper Clutha because of the drier climate but the soils around Wanaka were very porous, which allowed pathogens and contaminants to move quickly through the soil and into the waterways. The Massey University academic spoke in Wanaka this week at the invitation of the Lake Wanaka Trust, delivering a public lecture on “The Future of food; our deadly nitrogen and fossil fuel addiction”. In an interview, he said artificial nitrogen made from fossil fuels had allowed cow numbers to double in the past 20 years and quadrupled milk production, but the farmers were not making any more money and the nitrogen was ruining rivers and lowland lakes.

      “Our rivers can be saved because they flow, so once you stop polluting them they can come right, but our lowland lakes are so full of nutrients and sediments you virtually can’t save them.”

      He said “there has been such a weakening of the legislation in New Zealand that two of the most nutrient-polluted rivers in the world, like the Yangtze and the Mississippi, would get an A or a B under our new standards.”

      https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/wanaka/dairy-intensification-effects-questioned

  20. Ed 20

    ‘We quit alcohol nearly two years ago and it changed everything’

    ‘We live in a society where it is normal, or according to some, essential to have a drink to celebrate.
    We welcome the weekend in with post-work drinks and take to the dance floor with a wine in hand.
    The boys will knock back a few shots and sink a few “cold ones” on a Sunday arvo.
    But one couple decided to end their love with alcohol. They weren’t alcoholics, and they lived fairly normal lives to most, but it was the one decision that changed their lives forever.
    Her husband dropped 15kg, had glowing skin, crystal clear eyes and higher energy levels.
    He decided to continue on the no alcohol buzz, which encouraged Claire to take up the lifestyle change.
    “The 100 days turned into 200 and then 300 and then before we knew it, we were living and loving life alcohol-free. We both made the statement that we may never have another sip again. Ever.
    “Why? Between the two of us, we’d lost 32kg and felt fast and light on our feet. We gained more hours within each day, as we no longer needed as much sleep. We had the time and energy to spend our weekends bushwalking with the kids, teaching them how to ride their bikes or catch a wave. We had the stamina to run, ride, race, climb, create, teach and meditate with our children,” she wrote.
    Despite suffering several big blows – financial losses, deaths in the family and unsettling family dynamics – the couple felt they were able to deal with testing situations calmly, carefully, soberly and without regret.’

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=11956912

    • David Mac 20.1

      I wonder if we’ll evolve into a civilisation that finds pleasure only in things that are good for us. It’s the logical pursuit.

      “Oh no wine for me thanks, have you got any honey flavoured waterfall run-off?”

      As humans go, we have a long a history of digging stuff that isn’t very good for us, our feet on our mortality accelerators.

      • Ed 20.1.1

        Alcohol is NZ’s blindspot. Our blinkers are provided by the international liquor industry, whose advertising make this Class B drug ‘cool’.
        The damage it does to our society is massive.
        And we tolerate such damage, because we are slaves to marketing.

        • David Mac 20.1.1.1

          Yeah, I dunno. I think I might choose Lion or Stella courtesy of the marketing noise but my base desire to have a drink is down to me and my choices.

          Hmmm…….we have been manipulated via marketing to varying degrees. eg: in the past a lager might be promoted as ‘The Thirst Quencher’. I should be drinking water to quench my thirst, I’m drinking the lager for a beer buzz… I’ll tell the kids I’m thirsty.

        • Satty 20.1.1.2

          You can add “cars” to that category.

    • Well, good for them. How is it news, exactly?

      • Ed 20.2.1

        This is why it is news.

        ‘New Zealanders have been too tolerant of the risks associated with drinking
        to excess. Unbridled commercialisation of alcohol as a commodity in the last
        20 years has made the problem worse. New Zealanders now spend an estimated
        $85 million a week on alcohol.

        The excessive consumption of alcohol by New Zealanders contributes to a range
        of serious harms. These harms can be categorised as:
        • an array of criminal offences including homicides, assaults, sexual assaults,
        domestic violence and public disorder that place heavy and unacceptable
        burdens on the New Zealand Police;
        • the causative contribution that alcohol consumption makes to a long list of
        diseases, including alcohol-related cancers, mental health disorders,
        dependence, foetal alcohol spectrum disorder, sexually transmitted infections,
        and many others;
        • alcohol poisoning and accidental injury due to intoxication, sometimes
        causing death. This includes many cases of death in the home and on the
        roads. The Accident Compensation Corporation estimates up to 22% of the
        claims it receives have alcohol as a contributing factor. These injuries place
        a heavy burden on the public health system, particularly on the accident and
        emergency departments of New Zealand hospitals. Treating disease and
        disability to which alcohol contributes places a further heavy load on the
        public health system;
        • the catalogue of harms visited upon third parties as a result of others’ excessive
        alcohol consumption. These include many victims of crime, victims of
        domestic violence and children whose lives are marred, sometimes before
        birth, by their dependence on adults who drink to excess;
        • the harmful effects on educational outcomes, workplace productivity,
        friendships, social life, home life and the financial position of households;1
        • the public nuisance: litter, glass, noise, the damage and destruction of property
        and the costs associated with rectifying these nuisances.’

        http://www.lawcom.govt.nz/sites/default/files/projectAvailableFormats/NZLC%20R114.pdf

  21. OnceWasTim 21

    Not sure how, but I stumbled on this:

    Open mike 01.02.2012

    It includes a series of comments from regulars. I wonder how we see it all now in the context of the new coalition government.

    That whole OpenMike is worthy of preservation. (History.net maybe) For me, it pretty much sums up the consequences of the neo-liberal agenda – whether its Ken Douglas succumbing to treats and trinkets, or Toby rolling in his grave over the temptations his son has succumbed to. Probably the birth of Chardonnay Socialism.

    God! it was/is gorgeous.

  22. The Chairman 22

    Auckland fuel pipeline shut down – again.
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/99715168/auckland-airport-fuel-pipeline-shut-down

    Time for a back up pipeline or will she be right?

  23. joe90 23

    Barking.

    I'm crying laughing…"Alexa… are you connected to the CIA?""Alexa… you are lying to me." – Alex Jones' hard hitting back and forth interview with an Amazon Echo. He's not gonna let it get away with ANYTHING. pic.twitter.com/GxguDBLMST— Tim Young (@TimRunsHisMouth) December 9, 2017

  24. eco maori 24

    I think our new Maori labour mp should use his brain our tepuna gave us and no this that a labour government is good for Maori. So hanging ones washing out in public is not a wise choice as there are many consequences because of this.
    One would not expect to have a long career If one carries on like that it’s the people its the people you will benefit our people if you are in parliament for a very long time and labours policy will benefit Maori even if it’s not directly aimed at Maori.
    I think that this is a wise thing as it
    Takes away a target that national could us as a racial shit stur and all you other Maori mp take notice. Kai Kaha

  25. Ed 25

    ‘Team NZ is a big business and not necessarily a good business.’

    Nice to see someone in the media not falling for Team New Zealand’s bait.
    Indeed Rattue’s article includes some truths you never see in the economy section of the paper.

    ‘The big lie was Rogernomics, the 1980s rush to free enterprise which inferred that health and wealth would trickle down. Ever since, the wealth has been gushing upwards, and real national health has plummeted.

    The original America’s Cup dream was actually funded by some of these new frontiersmen, a couple of bankers with – in my view – highly questionable attitudes around society values.’

    No, when you live in a little country where the head of the local farming cooperative is earning more than $8m a year and gets an increase to give Beauden Barrett’s goalkicking success rate a decent nudge, all those top dogs are fair game.

    Big business will say anything to get its own way — take all inferences the good ship America’s Cup is vital for the country with a big vat of sea salt.’

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11956948

    • Ed 25.1

      This article shows more critical thinking than anything you’d read from Hosking, Soper, du Plessis Allen, Garner, Gower, Murphy, Young, Watkins, Tame, ….

      Yes this was written in the sports section and actually shows up the bs we’ve been sold for 35 years,

      Chris Rattue’s article is worth a thread.

      Just read this section alone…..

      ‘Philosophy, heart, soul, culture and emotion has been replaced by a fake world in the debilitating efficiency age. This includes the pseudo patriotism that lines up before every test match, hand on heart, face grimacing, team mates clutched closely, anthem turned up loud.
      But can you tell me again why it is so overwhelmingly important to beat Australia, when I don’t actually feel like that anymore?’

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