Open mike 11/05/2024

55 comments on “Open mike 11/05/2024 ”

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1. bwaghorn 1

   11 May 2024 at 7:14 am

   https://www.waikatotimes.co.nz/nz-news/350269895/tauhara-power-station-turbine-gets-test-drive

   The knuckle dragging simian brown must have over looked this little bueaty when ranting about more gas needed for power production.
   • ianmac 1.1

     11 May 2024 at 10:41 am

     Marc Daalder writing for Newsroom has a brilliant fact filled explanation of the energy supply "problems." Brown should be shamed for using his misinformation about gas etc for political gains. (There is still more than enough gas available but usage has dropped.)

     Third, exploration is not the barrier to the development of new offshore fields. There are already known reserves that companies can exploit now in up to five fields that have been exempted from the ban covering more than 5400 square kilometres of ocean off the coast of Taranaki and the Waikato.

     Actually Newsroom does a much better job than most Media outlets.

     https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/05/10/government-hypes-gas-crisis-ahead-of-restarting-drilling/
     • Matiri 1.1.1

       11 May 2024 at 2:04 pm

       Newsroom are well worth supporting with a subscription in my opinion.
     • gsays 1.1.2

       11 May 2024 at 5:10 pm

       Thanks for the link ian.

       Informative and balanced, while being critical.

       I figure if we are at the tipping point, for it to be cost efficient to go all electric domestically, then surely we are there for commercial purposes.

       https://www.rewiring.nz/electric-homes-report
       • Phillip ure 1.1.2.1

         11 May 2024 at 7:37 pm

         I freed myself from the shackles of the usurious power peddlers…

         I have a large solar panel..two smaller panels..rechargable lights..sound system…cook with gas…

         = Bye bye power bills…

         It's not hard to do..

         ..imagine…no more power bills… self-sufficiency rules..!
         • gsays 1.1.2.1.1

           11 May 2024 at 8:23 pm

           Go you good thing.
           When a Key commodity is privatised, shareholders rub their hands in glee when there are shortages.

           Bradford's 'reforms' were what pushed me off grid. We are in the process of installing our 3rd and hopefully final system.

           Then, commission the biodigester, made out of a 1000litre IBC(s) to get off the bottled gas…
2. PsyclingLeft.Always 2

   11 May 2024 at 8:08 am

   Cold houses to blame for people needing to 'blast the heater' – Green Building Council

   "Research from Otago University shows actually if we built to best-practice standards, as the majority of the OECD already are, we could reduce the winter peak by 75 percent. That's huge, and not only takes pressure off the grid, but would be a massive win for New Zealander's health and cost of living."

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/516537/cold-houses-to-blame-for-people-needing-to-blast-the-heater-green-building-council

   So obvious..and such a no brainer. Sad that the NO brains were elected into, ironically, power .

   Fast track coal, scream the shit heads.
   • Shanreagh 2.1

     11 May 2024 at 8:47 am

     As well as new building we also need to learn how to retrofit our existing housing stock and establish best practice for doing this.

     Not everyone wants to live in a new house. Plenty still live and are happy in, an older house.

     With the long time practice to ensure that older folk can stay in the community rather being warehoused somewhere else this is vital.

     Families with children also need access to homes, that need not be new, that have good standards for warmth.
     • Traveller 2.1.1

       11 May 2024 at 9:33 am

       That’s precisely the situation my 88 year old mother is in. She still lives in the (small) family home we all grew up in in the ‘60’s and 70’s, but with ceiling insulation and a heat pump added. She has fantastic neighbours, and has no desire to move to something new.
     • aj 2.1.2

       11 May 2024 at 11:52 am

       Not everyone wants to live in a new house. Plenty still live and are happy in, an older house.

       Oh to be fortunate and wealthy enough to have that choice.
       • Traveller 2.1.2.1

         11 May 2024 at 4:54 pm

         With the cost of new builds, some people have no choice but to stay in their old homes.
     • PsyclingLeft.Always 2.1.3

       12 May 2024 at 8:58 am

       Not everyone wants to live in a new house.

       I didnt say they did. Also, did you read the link?

       "For years we've been calling for [governments] to deal with the terrible state of New Zealand homes. Millions of New Zealanders live in poorly insulated and draughty housing – there's no wonder when the weather gets cold, they need to blast the heater."

       He said the government should commit to a major retrofit programme similar to those being done in Ireland, Australia and the US.

       https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/516537/cold-houses-to-blame-for-people-needing-to-blast-the-heater-green-building-council

       And it may be you are the fortunate person who has either their own home and managed to insulate…or fortunate enough to have a Landlord who cares about more than the rental income?

       Unlike….

       We're still hearing stories of cold, damp, mouldy rentals, four years after the introduction of Healthy Homes standards. What exactly are the rules, and why are so many landlords able to duck them?

       It's also difficult for tenants to complain if they have a problem. They can go to the Tenancy Compliance and Investigations Team (TCIT), or the Tenancy Tribunal, but that's not an easy task.

       "That's quite a difficult undertaking – and especially if you're not certain of what you're entitled to and how it all works," Bell says.

       Bell says only about 18 percent of tenants that have gone to the tribunal with Healthy Homes compliance issues have received some form of remedy.

       https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/the-detail/story/2018898839/healthy-homes-remain-an-uphill-battle

       An..example of what the UNfortunate deal with

       Mum throws out mattress, furniture with mould but rental passes Healthy Homes inspection

       https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/493515/mum-throws-out-mattress-furniture-with-mould-but-rental-passes-healthy-homes-inspection
   • weka 2.2

     11 May 2024 at 9:34 am

     how far below best practice are we building?
     • Shanreagh 2.2.1

       11 May 2024 at 10:03 am

       how far below best practice are we building?

       I actually don't think we are. Most houses have good insulation: top, bottom,sides. double glazing, many have air/heat transfer kits, heat pumps. They don't have forced air mechanical ventilation or automatic temperature control. Still a limiting factor is our prevalent building material of wood

       The trouble is that the features that would be the icing on the cake for many such as radiators or whole house heating are beyond the reach of the typical home house builder. We rely on heat pumps on walls rather than harnessing the power of heat pump technology to power whole house heating. (ie a bank of pumps connected to radiators) Solar is not yet mainstream in new builds. Individual wind turbines are not seen much here in the perennially windy city (clue not Chicago!)

       But our existing housing stock is fine to be renovated. Many sustainable firms do not offer programmes with loans etc to insulate walls or do double glazing (except the poor people's Dble glazing kits which are great). They are not doing any research into solutions for accessing under floor insulation for home built with no human under floor access.

       Our small street though we witnessed tunneling on the scale of Douglas Bader at Stalag Luft III B when a neighbour had tunnelers working to make tracks for humans to install underfloor insulation.

       Even though we can do all of these things, some better/more effectively than others, the elephant in the room is always the cost of electricity.

       Max Bradford needs to make himself ponder on how difficult his reforms have made it for most to afford even a modest heater to take the chill off. Failing Bradford seeing the light then some sort of review should be done with an aim of winding back the rich boys electricity 'reforms'.

       Perhaps Labour could add this to the list, and any other 'state' owned assets that may fall into private hands with this Govt.
       • joe90 2.2.1.1

         11 May 2024 at 12:46 pm

         a limiting factor is our prevalent building material of wood

         In a discussion about thermal performance how is timber, around R1.4/25mm, limiting?
         • Shanreagh 2.2.1.1.1

           11 May 2024 at 1:26 pm

           Sorry I meant in relation to brick or stone. We have to work with what we have got, stone & brick are so expensive, and so as compared with solid as stone or brick we do have a limitation to start with.

           And sure we are good at upping the rating with innovative sheetings/sheathings behind.
           • joe90 2.2.1.1.1.1

             11 May 2024 at 2:05 pm

             The R-value for most cladding is negligible.

             

             Thickness required of various insulation materials to achieve an R-Value of 22.

             The most utility method of upping R values is to increase insulation on the house side of the vapour barrier.
             • gsays …

               11 May 2024 at 5:14 pm

               Ok, I'll go all hippy on you and mention straw bale, cob, aircrete and rammed earth.
               Having said all that we have just redone the lean-to in the west wall hat is part of the master bedroom on our villa. Ready for elderly Mum to occupy.
               6×2 framing for the walls and 10×2 rafters for the ceiling for the thicker Batts, expol under floor and heat pump plus radiators.
         • Visubversa 2.2.1.1.2

           11 May 2024 at 4:37 pm

           My 1933 bungalow is constructed of kauri weatherboards on the outside and 9 by 1 inch rimu planking on the inside. Add building paper and a lining of Gib to the internal walls, lots of Batts in the attic, and insulation to the underfloor spaces, – it is very snug. I could retrofit double glazing, but for the moment, good curtains will have to do. There is a heat pump in the kitchen/family room and the site is north/west facing so gets good sun.

           Nothing wrong with well built and insulated wooden houses.
           • weka 2.2.1.1.2.1

             11 May 2024 at 5:50 pm

             wall insulation?

             I really don't get why people build these insulated houses and don't put up curtains.
             • Shanreagh …

               12 May 2024 at 1:00 pm

               I don't either Weka.

               Quite apart from the privacy aspect every little bit of protection against the cold helps. I suspect that they are related to the ones though who never pull their curtains back to get solar warming during the day or ventilate their houses to change air and prevent mould (and know the best times to do this).

               We seem to have lost much of the commonsense about 'driving' a home somewhere along the way.
             • joe90 …

               12 May 2024 at 2:29 pm

               I really don't get why we have so many damn windows.

               Glazing on north-facing walls can be reasonably large. Where there is good solar access and exposed concrete floors to provide thermal mass, north-facing windows should be approximately 10-15% of total floor area. With timber floors, north-facing windows should be closer to 10% of floor area. Where solar access is poor, the north-facing windows should be less than 8% of floor area.

               Glazing that is east, west or south-facing should be smaller and designed mainly to meet daylight and view requirements. This glazing is usually a net heat loser in winter, depending on climate and heating.

               East-facing windows should be reasonably small – less than 5% of the home's total floor area.

               South and west-facing windows should ideally be less than 3% of floor area and be designed for daylight, views and cooling cross-flow breezes in summer.

               https://www.level.org.nz/passive-design/glazing-and-glazing-units/
               • weka …

                 12 May 2024 at 2:35 pm

                 warmth, light, view. One of the reasons for having decent east facing windows is if you are in a hot climate you can open those windows in the afternoon when it is hottest, and close the curtains on the west and north sides. If there were limited windows on the east, it would be hotter inside and darker.
                 • Shanreagh …

                   12 May 2024 at 3:56 pm

                   Yes Weka this is what my sister in inland Otago does in summer. East windows & doors open, west closed and curtained
               • weka …

                 12 May 2024 at 2:37 pm

                 I do agree that some house builds go completely over board. Also, why did high ceilings come back into style? It’s like the efficiencies gained by insulation and better passive solar were seen as something that could be spent by doing high ceilings, floor to ceiling windows and no curtains. That’s not conserving energy, it’s excessive energy use despite the triple glazing and high R value insulation.
                 • joe90 …

                   12 May 2024 at 3:33 pm

                   High ceilings have always been a display of wealth.
                 • Drowsy M. Kram …

                   12 May 2024 at 3:45 pm

                   Also, why did high ceilings come back into style?

                   Interesting question. And why did high ceilings become 'fashionable' in the first place – a woman's (or man's) home is her/his castle?

                   Just for info – I don't know the answer, but joe90 is probably on to it.

                   NZ fashion icon Dame Trelise Cooper selling her luxury apartment – just weeks after moving in [16 April 2024]
                   He noted that the 275sqm apartment, which has a CV of $10.5 million, was the size of a large family home and the biggest in the Sonata. “The views that captivate you when you walk into the apartment and the sheer volume and the high stud – it’s iconic. The quiet luxury of this apartment will appeal to people who put a premium on privacy,” he said.

                   How High [20 May 2009]
                   Are high ceilings a sign of wretched architectural excess or just good taste?

                   Living and working in older buildings, people discovered that taller rooms simply felt—and looked—better. Builders were happy to oblige since tall ceilings didn’t cost much more, as Stern points out—but you could charge more for them.

                   High ceilings are best [3 March 2023]
                   Ideally we want lofty spaces for socialising and smaller ones to retreat to, says Gibberd: “If you look at a Georgian townhouse, the ceiling heights change as you go up,” he says. “On the ground floor, they tend to be high to portray a sense of grandeur. On the upper floors, where bedrooms are, they’re lower.” Large rooms are inevitably more expensive to heat, and the acoustics a challenge, especially if you have hard floors. You don’t need high ceilings for sleeping.

                   High ceilings

                   "Adding to the list of the benefits of high ceilings, he gushed …"
           • Shanreagh 2.2.1.1.2.2

             12 May 2024 at 1:04 pm

             Agree with this. My house has stood the test of time and is as warm and comfy as I want it to be. (I generally function on a lower temperature than many homes are heated to and having opening windows/access to fresh air are key to me. I suffered terribly (like no other time) with sinus and other chest/nasal infections while living in apartments with non opening windows in Europe.
3. aj 3

   11 May 2024 at 11:58 am

   NZ weather live: Power grid emergency due to geomagnetic storm

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350272573/nz-weather-live-power-grid-emergency-due-geomagnetic-storm

   Labour and the Greens fault, no doubt.
   • Drowsy M. Kram 3.1

     11 May 2024 at 1:03 pm

     Thanks for that link to the Stuff article – TS is a great source of news.

     Labour and the Greens fault, no doubt.

     

     So I just did me some talkin' to the sun
     And I said I didn't like
     The way he got things done

     https://genius.com/Bj-thomas-raindrops-keep-fallin-on-my-head-lyrics

     Raindrops Keep Falling On My Head

     Human-induced effects through increases in heat-trapping gases in the atmosphere continue, and warmer oceans and higher sea levels are guaranteed. As we have seen in 2022, whether from drought, heat waves and wildfires, or floods and super storms, there is a cost to not taking action to slow climate change, and we all are experiencing this now.

     According to a quote from the late 19th century, often attributed to Mark Twain, ‘Everybody talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it.’ Now humans are changing the weather, and still nobody does anything about it!

     https://www2.cgd.ucar.edu/staff/trenbert/books/Kevin-Trenberth-Raindrops-Keep-Falling-On-My-Head.pdf
   • Belladonna 3.2

     11 May 2024 at 1:39 pm

     Friends in the South are hoping for aurora views this evening – though may be hampered by cloud-cover (not as cold as last night, but less visually exciting)

     Sadly, we're not likely to see them in Auckland; both because we're likely too far north – but also the light pollution would drown it out. Perhaps they could save power by dowsing the street lights to let us see the aurora!
     • Anne 3.2.1

       11 May 2024 at 5:46 pm

       "Perhaps they could save power by dowsing the street lights to let us see the aurora!"

       They would if they could but wouldn't dare. Some grinch would take them to court. Damn pity.
     • gsays 3.2.2

       11 May 2024 at 8:44 pm

       I've just seen images of the aurora taken in Foxton. Stunning!

       I thought it was one of the things that was bragging rights for our southern cousins.
4. joe90 4

   11 May 2024 at 6:40 pm

   The most moral army in the world…

   //

   Strapped down, blindfolded, held in diapers: Israeli whistleblowers detail abuse of Palestinians in shadowy detention center

   […]

   They paint a picture of a facility where doctors sometimes amputated prisoners’ limbs due to injuries sustained from constant handcuffing; of medical procedures sometimes performed by underqualified medics earning it a reputation for being “a paradise for interns”; and where the air is filled with the smell of neglected wounds left to rot.

   We were told they were not allowed to move. They should sit upright. They’re not allowed to talk. Not allowed to peek under their blindfold.

   An Israeli whistleblower recounting his experience at Sde Teiman

   According to the accounts, the facility some 18 miles from the Gaza frontier is split into two parts: enclosures where around 70 Palestinian detainees from Gaza are placed under extreme physical restraint, and a field hospital where wounded detainees are strapped to their beds, wearing diapers and fed through straws.

   “They stripped them down of anything that resembles human beings,” said one whistleblower, who worked as a medic at the facility’s field hospital.

   “(The beatings) were not done to gather intelligence. They were done out of revenge,” said another whistleblower. “It was punishment for what they (the Palestinians) did on October 7 and punishment for behavior in the camp.”

   https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd
5. Shanreagh 5

   11 May 2024 at 7:12 pm

   Test
6. joe90 6

   11 May 2024 at 8:23 pm

   The Carrington Event in early September 1859 was the largest solar storm on record.

   Auroras were visible in low latitudes and miners in the Rockies were said to have arisen and breakfasted in the middle of the night thinking dawn was approaching. Induced current in telegraph lines caused fires, ignited batteries, and allowed telegraphs to be sent and received despite batteries being disconnected.

   An event of that magnitude today would likely cause hundreds of billion of dollars worth of damage.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/world-news/350275087/rare-geomagnetic-storm-sparks-power-grid-alerts-around-world-stunning-auroras
   • Anne 6.1

     11 May 2024 at 8:36 pm

     Stunning photos of the Aurora including one from Blockhouse Bay Auckland. Can't see it from my place on the Shore. 🙁

     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/stunning-aurora-lights-continue-for-nz-tonight-clear-skies-make-for-better-viewing-conditions/TDUYASBJBJDJ7AONV37Q75HRQE/
     • joe90 6.1.1

       11 May 2024 at 8:58 pm

       Stunning display south of here. Mostly red spreading from the southern horizon to near overhead, looks very like a bushfire sunset, with occasional vertical greens.
7. Ffloyd 7

   11 May 2024 at 8:39 pm

   AJ.. heh heh. Waiting for the t-shirts. ..LABOUR DID THIS! Totally responsible for LARGEST SOLAR STORM ON RECORD!.
   • alwyn 7.1

     11 May 2024 at 8:58 pm

     I might have believed you if you had claimed "Labour are planning to turn on the largest Solar Storm on Record"

     Labour actually doing it? Who are you trying to kid? They never in actually succeeding with anything significant.
   • Drowsy M. Kram 7.2

     11 May 2024 at 10:19 pm

     They never in actually succeeding with anything significant.

     Alwyn’s more garbled than usual. Blame the aurora – it helps put things in perspective.

     https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/05/11/awe-inspiring-aurorae-amaze-over-south-island-more-expected/

     Our electromagnetic infrastructure, and indeed life itself as we know it, is possible only because of spaceship Earth's magnetosphere – and it's FREE! "Raise shields!"

     https://scied.ucar.edu/learning-zone/sun-space-weather/earth-magnetosphere
8. weka 8

   12 May 2024 at 2:57 pm

   Does anyone understand this Sharon Murdoch cartoon and can explain it?

   https://twitter.com/domesticanimal/status/1789386842078380240
   • joe90 8.1

     12 May 2024 at 3:28 pm

     Women only so best I check.
   • Shanreagh 8.2

     12 May 2024 at 3:50 pm

     The one on the right seems to have a penis on the end of the pointing arm, perhaps mocking the idea that a man can protect a woman's space literally/figuratively while having a penis. Or that anyone with a penis can protect a space designed for women or mocking that women, unless they have lady dick, are not women?

     But I don't know…..

     So many have got the wrong end of the press release because of the MSM mistake in saying NZ first were refusing access to unisex spaces. Par for the course for MSM in NZ. Wouldn't have a clue about women's issues even if they had said issues piled up in boxes in their lounge.
     • weka 8.2.1

       12 May 2024 at 7:28 pm

       Hipkins repeated the lie about unisex as well. Totally fucking bizarre.

       I usually find Murdoch's cartoons self explanatory, but I really have no idea what she is trying to say with that one. Does 'I trust you do have a women's space' refer to women's vaginas?
   • SPC 8.3

     12 May 2024 at 6:29 pm

     https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2405/S00077/new-zealand-first-members-bill-to-protect-womens-spaces.htm

     The proposed legislation (members bill only – not coalition) requires a minimum of two separate toilets – one for each sex. And legal consequence for those who use one not of their birth sex.
     • weka 8.3.1

       12 May 2024 at 6:47 pm

       yes, I know, but I don't understand what Murdoch is saying with the cartoon.
       • SPC 8.3.1.1

         12 May 2024 at 7:07 pm

         She is inferring

         1. greater interest about who is a women's sex toilet, than the other one.
         2. and who is going to police correct use of toilets and how they are going to do it.

         She could have gone further – does one need a "birth certificate" or drivers licence or passport ID to access a public place toilet (all currently issued based on self gender ID). This is like the "phony war", just the beginning.
         • weka 8.3.1.1.1

           12 May 2024 at 7:23 pm

           I don't see how you got those two points from that cartoon.
         • weka 8.3.1.1.2

           12 May 2024 at 7:25 pm

           the problem isn't having ID or not, it's that sex isn't formally defined in NZ law.

           Not sure what you mean by phoney war. There are coherent reasons for having single sex toilets.
           • SPC 8.3.1.1.2.1

             12 May 2024 at 7:45 pm

             The term phony war comes from a period in WW2.

             It applies here because a member proposing legislation about having separate toilets based on sex, will come up against earlier parliamentary legislation to enable gender self ID (as per birth certificate, DL and passport).

             To have any meaning, it would have to impact on other legislation.

             I don't see how you got those two points from that cartoon.

             And I do not know what other conclusions could be drawn.
             • weka …

               12 May 2024 at 9:06 pm

               To have any meaning, it would have to impact on other legislation.

               generally yes, that is the norm. However there is legislation that predates self ID eg the right to discriminate on the basis of sex was established in BORA 1990 and HRA 1993

               https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1990/0109/latest/whole.html#DLM225519

               https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0082/latest/DLM304617.html

               Afaik, the BDMRR amendment was never intended to change the definition of sex, it was simply to make changing the BC easier.

               The DIA FAQ page had one thing to say about women,

               How will you protect women’s rights to sex segregated spaces if self-identification is introduced?

               The sex printed on a birth certificate does not determine someone’s legal sex and any associated rights, and there is no legal provision for definitively determining sex in New Zealand legislation. A self-identification process doesn’t change the protections for sex segregated spaces.

               People have been able to change the sex on their birth certificate since the Births, Deaths, Marriages and Relationships Registration Act 1995 was first enacted, and to self-identify gender on passports since 2012, and we haven’t seen any evidence of this being abused.

               https://thestandard.org.nz/the-problems-for-women-with-sex-self-id-in-law-and-society/

               So what we have is protections that allow for single sex spaces, social conventions around that eg that sex refers to biology, and the DIA stating in 2021 that single sex spaces aren't affected by self ID.

               We also have a sociopolitical push from gender identity activists to make changes socially eg remove single sex spaces. That is why this Bill exists. That it's being done by Peters/NZF as a form of populism doesn't alter that changes are being made without consultation and that will attract backlash. I'm not convinced that this Bill is necessary, nor that it is well written, but it's what we have in the absence of meaningful debate.

               The Post today told an outright lie about the Bill,

               https://twitter.com/aniobrien/status/1789117790034772361

               one that the leader of the Opposition repeated. It's bizarre beyond belief, but here we are.

               Ani did a mega thread,

               A THREAD OF EXAMPLES & REASONS WHY SINGLE SEX TOILETS/BATHROOMS ARE IMPORTANT. Plus history & info. These are of course in addition to the fact that women (and most men) want single sex spaces in which to pee & poo.

               https://twitter.com/aniobrien/status/1789133707619836231
               • SPC …

                 12 May 2024 at 10:04 pm

                 The meaning is that self ID no more impacted on spaces than the right given since 1995 to identify differently (via a managed process) to birth sex – or the more general point that there was no legal definition of sex identity.

                 Thus sex based identity can be extended (via gender identity) to those not born of that sex, and unless this is seen to be in conflict with the rights of those born of that sex it would not be a breach of human rights.

                 Not that they are prepared to put it that baldly without a court determination.

                 Is it then possible to identify the legal circumstance of any bathroom "incident" without court precedent (and after Court of Appeal and Supreme Court also concluded)?

                 In the meantime, police action launched as a result of managing an incident – without any legal resolution, until a case went to court.

                 At the moment there is presumably no requirement to have separate male and female sex toilets in new public buildings, but this is common and with unisex areas as well – often with wheel chair access, which "others" can use.

                 A headline saying that the legislation would ban the provision of just unisex toilets in new buildings would be valid.
                 • weka …

                   12 May 2024 at 10:56 pm

                   The meaning is that self ID no more impacted on spaces than the right given since 1995 to identify differently (via a managed process) to birth sex – or the more general point that there was no legal definition of sex identity.

                   actually self ID legislation is having a significant impact in that it is affirming social change that is distorted because of No Debate. Consider why there are no posts about this on TS now. Or why there are few left wing voices address the issues for women.

                   what is sex based identity? Sex isn't an identity, it's a fixed state of being.

                   If you mean that trans women can self ID into women's toilets even where those toilets are designated female only, then use, this is exactly what the Bill is designed to address.

                   Consider a pub that has a women's toilet, men's and unisex. The women's toilet is a large room with basins/mirrors and cubicles that don't got floor to ceiling. Under the proposed law, if a man goes into that space, women could go to the owner of the pub and ask them to take action eg evict the man from the pub. If the man refuses to leave, the police can be called. Just like any other barring that happens in a pub.

                   At the moment, the same pub could take the same actions, because single sex spaces are protected in law. But I think the legislation used in court would be whatever allows pubs to evict patrons. The problem we have at the moment is that self ID is effecting a cultural shift. No Debate means that many places that might want to remove men from women's toilets won't do so for fear of being cancelled. And there are of course many people who are ok with men in women's spaces and they're not going to support women in that situation.

                   This is a really good example of why the issue isn't about genital inspections or transphobia. Even allowing for Bomber's fairly extreme and nonsensical rant style, it neatly points to the fact that men can just decide to ride roughshod over women's rights and then women have to fight. That's the war.
9. Shanreagh 9

   13 May 2024 at 11:21 am

   This is a really good example of why the issue isn't about genital inspections or transphobia. Even allowing for Bomber's fairly extreme and nonsensical rant style, it neatly points to the fact that men can just decide to ride roughshod over women's rights and then women have to fight. That's the war.

   Agree Weka. I am concerned that there is so little in the way of widespread support for women from the community of men generally. This is not about being kind or using pronouns.

   I think the community of men should step up and say, 'it doesn't matter how you are dressed fellow man you are able to come into the the toilets of your biological sex'.

   This would work for all the well intentioned trans 'women'. They would recognise that it doesn't matter how you are dressed you are still a male.

   It would not work on the AGP males.

   Autogynephilia is defined as a male's propensity to be sexually aroused by the thought of himself as a female. Being frank the ability to do something about being sexually aroused is to masturbate, possibly rape. The numbers of pictures of males masturbating in womens toilets is legion.

   I have not got figures but I suspect that in this cohort it is highly unlikely that they would have surgery to create a vagina, that would miss the point. They need male apparatus to do the next step. Sorry for being frank but in the dreamy world of rainbows and so called 'trans rights' this is ignored

   Part of 'passing' as a female is to do 'female' things like going to the womens toilets. Of course they look nothing like a female. They are instantly recognisable as male. Many women have an inbuilt/innate sense of being able to recognise males no matter how they dress. This most acute at times when we have to let our guard down eg toiletting, breastfeeding children, tending to childrens' needs generally a fractious child in a stroller will take most of a mother's attention.

   If there were unisex toilets then anyone could use them. This of course would not be supported by the AGP men.

   The aim and object of these men is to gain access to women's toilets. I suspect this is who the legislation is primarily aimed at. It cannot come soon enough.

   I hope that along with it, in the future, we will look at the building regs that seem to have screwball requirements for the proportions of male/female toilets. Many women have found themselves using or guarding men's toilets, at say concert venues, so that other women can use them, while an equal number, and counting, are using and lining up to use the women's toilets.

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