Open Mike 11/07/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 11th, 2018 - 109 comments
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109 comments on “Open Mike 11/07/2018 ”

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  2. AsleepWhileWalking 2
    11 July 2018 at 6:50 am

    13 Miracles!!!

    *happy sniff*

    • mary_a 2.1
      11 July 2018 at 10:43 am

      @ AsleepWhileWalking (2) … Indeed we have witnessed an incredible miracle, against all the odds. Proves no mission is impossible.

      I take my hat off and bow to those rescuers, who risked everything to save the boys.

      RIP to the Thai navy seal who lost his life in the rescue process.

      • Sabine 2.1.1
        11 July 2018 at 11:25 am

        i am in awe of the coach who until they were found managed to keep these boys alive and in good spirits.

        Yes, a bit of good news in the current dreary daily muck.

        And they lived happily ever after, is my wish to all involved. And i lot of love to the family who lost the navy seal.

  3. Ankerrawshark 3
    11 July 2018 at 7:32 am

    Relief and joy thatat the wild boars and their coach and all those incredibly brave rescuers are alive and out of that dam cave. Talk about mission impossible. Wonderful news

  4. Carolyn_Nth 4
    11 July 2018 at 7:36 am

    Further thoughts on neo-nazi provocateurs and human rights.

    I suspect the Freeze Peach group (are they all white men?), are aiming to test the limits of NZ law. Basically, I think the Council will go for citing clause 5 of BORA on justified limitations, plus clause 131 of the Human Rights Act making it illegal to incite racial disharmony. They will put a lot of emphasis on clause 131.

    I think the neo-nazis will be arguing that freedom of speech trumps all other human rights – more like US law than European or British law.

    I also think the left need to be proactive on this. We need to keep developing and building the argument for all human rights including freedom from abuse harassment, bullying etc – by whatever legal name those things go by.

    I think the left needs to build the arguments about why freedom of speech is a good thing, because the neo-nazis have a very superficial take on it – they want to use it to abuse, intimidate and dominate certain sections of society. Basically they want to use it to undermine the access to platforms for speaking out by some sections of society.

    And we need to build the argument for a diverse and inclusive society.

    • Pataua4life 4.1
      11 July 2018 at 7:59 am

      Diverse and inclusive just like the pro-life group that was shut down by the left at Auckland University

    • Sanctuary 4.2
      11 July 2018 at 8:17 am

      There is no equivalent to the US first amendment right to free speech in NZ and free speech is not explicitly protected in the common law. That is why we can have censorship laws, and protect intellectual property, or guard against child pornography – all explicit fetters on free speech. The BORA just states “…”Everyone has the right to freedom of expression, including the freedom to seek, receive, and impart information and opinions of any kind in any form.”…” which is just a shortened version of Article 19 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights –

      “…Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers…” No one has denied these rights to Southern and Molyneux by simply refusing them access to council halls.

      The thing is, everyone believes in free speech, as long as it is a free speech that suits them. A brief perusal of the record of the “Freeze Peach” group illustrates this. Amongst it’s fearless defenders of free speech we have members who wish to strip the funding of government critics (Eleanor Catton/Jordan Williams), or criminalise those whose methods of non-violent protest they find disagreeable (Flag burning/Stephen Franks) or, via racism, seek to strip an entire people of a voice (Bassett and Brash) only Lindsay Perrigo, a crackpot who lost the plot years ago, has an in extremis belief in free speech, although in practice this seems to consist mainly of supporting the rights of race-baiting fascists like Tommy Robinson.

      At the end of the day, the list of names in the free speech coalition just goes to show that all this issue has done is give a bit of oxygen to the fringe dwelling detritus of our civil society.

    • cleangreen 4.3
      11 July 2018 at 3:50 pm

      Carolyn_Nth
      Said: quote,
      “I think the left needs to build the arguments about why freedom of speech is a good thing,; – we need to build the argument for a diverse and inclusive society.”

      Yes we agree; but only as long as everyone is incuded and no-one is omitted.

      “leave no stone un-turned”

    • Andre 5.1
      11 July 2018 at 8:14 am

      My reckons is that for New Zealand, the bigger disruption will come from synthetic milk. Once someone comes up with the right blends of proteins, lipids and whatever else that can be produced in vats of engineered yeast, bacteria etc, then it becomes an industrial process that can be scaled up very quickly. Then it’s game over for milk powder.

      https://sciblogs.co.nz/griffins-gadgets/2017/10/13/fonterras-blindspot-synthetic-milk/

      Replacing the look and texture of a steak or roast is going to be much harder than replacing ground-up meat products. So I reckon the farming for meat industry still has a bit longer to go than dairy.

      • bwaghorn 5.1.1
        11 July 2018 at 10:21 am

        Yip grinding beef is probably a dying market . Milk maybe but as the owner of triky internal plumbing who can’t take soy or other fake milks .There will be niche a niche milk market . The richer people on the planet will still want real steaks roasts and chops and that is what nz needs to target.

      • Sabine 5.1.2
        11 July 2018 at 11:27 am

        it’s gonna be really funny and interesting to read the list of ingredients.

        • bwaghorn 5.1.2.1
          11 July 2018 at 4:35 pm

          I bet Monsanto and their I’ll are lining up to make a killing of low cost nutrient poor pap burgers

  6. Ffloyd 6
    11 July 2018 at 8:32 am

    Nick Smith on RNZ talking like he knows stuff.lol

    • Incognito 6.1
      11 July 2018 at 8:36 am

      He’s a renowned expert on swimming in and paddling up shit creeks.

    • marty mars 6.2
      11 July 2018 at 8:44 am

      He’s completely lost it – he dug a hole and then fell in it lol what a useless idiot. His strained vocals irritate – thank goodness we never hear much from that waste of space.

    • OnceWasTim 6.3
      11 July 2018 at 11:05 am

      “His brain could revolve inside a peanut shell for a thousand years without touching the sides”, all while being one of a few select MPs that “Could go down the Mount Eden sewer and come up cleaner than he went in”

  7. Ffloyd 7
    11 July 2018 at 8:40 am

    Just wanting to know what happens if nurses do go on strike? Does that mean that what the Govt has offered in good faith is no longer on the table? Do they,in the end walk away with nothing or do they go back into negotiations? Genuine questions.

    • You_Fool 7.1
      11 July 2018 at 11:30 am

      The nurses have already rejected the offer on the table, so it is off; but the government is saying they cannot do any better. The nurses have decided this is a bluff and are striking to force the government’s hand… probably in throwing out the budget responsibility rules to actually offer more.

      Basically the (bare majority of) nurses want a better deal and are happy to strike until they get it… I assume the government will leave what ever deal they end on before the strike on the table so the nurses can come back to it if they want… it will only take a few to change their minds for a union vote to be to go back to the negotiating table with some small demand to save face

      • The Chairman 7.1.1
        11 July 2018 at 1:14 pm

        The Government’s books are showing the surplus is almost half a billion more than was originally forecast. Moreover, Government debt is also tracking better than expected (see link below). So there is extra fiscal scope for the Government to consider improving wage offers.

  8. cleangreen 8
    11 July 2018 at 8:45 am

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/105391429/one-dead-after-crash-in-the-bay-of-plenty

    11/7/18.

    “State Highway 36, between Pyes Pa Rd roundabout and Oropi and Haumaha Rd, Ngongotaha, is closed.

    One person is dead after a two-vehicle crash between Rotorua and Tauranga on Wednesday morning.”

    Emergency services were called to scene of the crash, between a car and a truck, on Pyes Pa Rd in the Omanawa area just before 4am.

    Our response here is;…..

    The cruel result of National Party policy of encouraging many trucks on our roads, and closing down regional rail at the same time.

    So yet another sad result emerges daily it seems now by National Party policy’ of all freight now on trucks as another death occurred today after a car and truck collide, killing the car driver.

    So under the ‘National road only policies’ has just cost another life and a cost of almost $5 million (NZTA stats) to our economy.

    Reality is setting in now that National are responsible for loss of life and money lost to our economy.

    Sad to leave NZ in such a bad state National; – shame on you.

    • Wayne 8.1
      11 July 2018 at 9:56 am

      Trying to make political capital out of this seems inappropriate. There never has been a rail route between Rotorua and Tauranga. There was a rail route between Rotorua and Hamilton, which closed down a good two decades ago.

      What this accident shows is the importance of improving the quality of New Zealand’s roads, since they will carry the bulk of traffic, both trucks and cars, for many decades to come. Probably the Katikati to Tauranga road and the Warkworth to Whangarei road being the most urgent.

      • OnceWasTim 8.1.1
        11 July 2018 at 11:15 am

        “What this accident shows is the importance of improving the quality of New Zealand’s roads………..”, or alternatively the need for a rail link between Tauranga and Rotorua/Ngongotaha, possibly via one of river valleys near Te Puke Paengaroa.
        But then I guess that’d be Muldoonist-like funk big.

      • Sabine 8.1.2
        11 July 2018 at 11:30 am

        roads that will be trashed again in a heartbeat by heavy transport.

        roads that then will need to be upgraded or fixed every 6 month or so.

        what fine pork barrel for the heavy transport industry and the road industry.

        As the old saying goes, if there is no profit for private industry and their lackeys in parliament it must be socialism.

        • cleangreen 8.1.2.1
          11 July 2018 at 4:05 pm

          Sabine;

          You are so correct here, we have got the 10yr costing of all state highway annual repairs and pavement replacement figures from NZTA and shows that since the introduction of the HPMV or (high productivity motor vehicle) was allowed on our highways the average cost of maintainence has doubled in 8yrs.

          So now that NZTA are estimating in the latest ” NZ Freight Demands Study” that road freight will incease by 2.5 times by 2035 and at the same time they estimate that rail freight will at the same time also increase by 2.7 times.!!!!

          This looks very bleak now, as we are effectively looking down the barrel of a loaded gun now”””

          We are certainly in trouble if we dont get the regional rail freight services re-established again the road freight will increase by five times – of todays levels if rail is not available then.

          Since rail freight travels on steel wheels less friction no air pollution and 5 to eight times less climate changing emissions, so this is a big gain.

          So it is the way of the future and every first world country we are trading with is building more and more rail so should we be doing.

      • JanM 8.1.3
        11 July 2018 at 3:48 pm

        “What this accident shows is the importance of improving the quality of New Zealand’s roads”
        It clearly demonstrates the level of irresponsibility shown by National in encouraging heavy traffic on roads not suitable for the purpose. The roads should have been fixed first, not waiting until so many people had lost their lives.

        • cleangreen 8.1.3.1
          11 July 2018 at 4:28 pm

          Jan this is correct.

          Our road ‘substrate (under road base) is soft and unstale and we have now been adised this by three leading road construction companies that they are not suitable for heavy freight trucks.

          Everyone can see for themselves how long the new pavement resaling of our highways now actually lasts for, and I am confident in saying that six months the surfaces will have valleys along them where the heavy trucks tyre weight is placed upon thiose road surfaces, and can anyone notice when the rail corrects in those valleys along the road that body of weater acts like a river of water that our car tyres now glide along in them causing loss of road grip and possible loss of steering, so this causes the roads to now become dangerous for light vehicles now hence the light vehicles are prone to lossing their steering ability in some cases now.

          No matter what they do to say the roads are safe, the fact is now that they are not designed for the weight and volumes of heavy larger freight trucks on our roads.

    • David Mac 8.2
      11 July 2018 at 11:41 am

      I think our future will feature something like unmanned freight haulers that can be programmed to stand idle and solar/plug re-charge through the day and drive through the night. Pull over to left and slow when headlights play on their rears, slow to 30 kph through towns etc.

      Across the Aussie outback, trains rock. In a country of braided rivers, soaring peaks, rocky coastlines and frequent earthquakes, not so much.

      • Draco T Bastard 8.2.1
        11 July 2018 at 3:22 pm

        I think our future will feature something like unmanned freight haulers that can be programmed to stand idle and solar/plug re-charge through the day and drive through the night. Pull over to left and slow when headlights play on their rears, slow to 30 kph through towns etc.

        Cheaper, easier and probably better to just put in rail.

  9. JohnSelway 9
    11 July 2018 at 9:19 am

    A lot of talk regarding free speech round here as of late. I have wanted to throw I my 2c but have nbeen traveling the last few weeks so didn’t have a chance but now I have some down time in a hotel (far too hot to hike today at 41 degrees in the Utah desert) I’ll make a comment.

    As far as I am aware freedom of speech is only guaranteed in the public sphere by the government – I.e the government has no power to quell freedom of speech (mostly it is upheld in order to be able to freely and publicaly criticise the government) but it does not extend to the private sphere (which is why there is no freedom of speech guaranteed here, on FBook, kiwiblog etc).
    Hence if someone wants to refuse to make a cake for a homosexual couple or invite holocaust deniers to speak at a private event they can do so.

    My position is that if the maker of a cake wants to deny Maori, lesbians, Christians or whomever then by all means let them – we retain the right to publicly shame them. Drag it into the sunlight and kill it.

    Time for beer

    • alwyn 9.1
      11 July 2018 at 9:52 am

      “Time for a beer”.
      Are you able to buy the real thing in Utah these days?
      It used to be that Supermarkets were only allowed to sell 3.2% beer and were not allowed to sell any wine or any spirits.
      To get anything else you had to go to State run liquor stores, few and far between, and undergo an interrogation before you could get it. Rather like proving you were a drug addict if they didn’t like the look of you.
      It was nearly as bad as in Countries like Saudi Arabia.

  10. joe90 10
    11 July 2018 at 9:29 am

    A message to extremists who decide to defend Trump by any means when investigations finally threaten his presidency.

    Just in: President Trump has pardoned Dwight and Steven Hammond, father and son who were convicted in 2012 for arson. They were convicted for setting fires that spread to land managed by the Bureau of Land Management.— NPR (@NPR) July 10, 2018

    That was part of the run up to the 2016 armed occupation of the headquarters at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon, led by Ammon Bundy and his brother Ryan — sons of rancher Cliven Bundy who had an armed standoff in Nevada in 2014.— NPR (@NPR) July 10, 2018

  11. RedLogix 11
    11 July 2018 at 9:58 am

    A good read on the upcoming US/China trade war and it’s implications in this part of the world:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-11/donald-trump-us-china-trade-war/9971560

    • joe90 11.1
      11 July 2018 at 1:14 pm

      Possible costs to the US, state by state.

      https://www.uschamber.com/tariffs

      • RedLogix 11.1.1
        11 July 2018 at 1:25 pm

        As with any war it will be expensive; but that won’t be the primary consideration. Here’s another good abc article:

        http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-17/donald-trump-singapore-summit-showed-potential-hope-disaster/9877812

        Over the past two decades, the liberal order has been struck multiple blows: radical Islamic terrorism and the resultant war on terror; the rise of China and the 2008 collapse of the global financial system.

        All have tested the resilience of the West and the resolve to defend liberal values.

        Now liberalism is in retreat; globalism appears exhausted and cosmopolitanism is looked on as the vanity of the elites.

        We are witnessing a blowback: anger at inequality; resentment of immigration; loss of faith in institutions.

        • joe90 11.1.1.1
          11 July 2018 at 2:13 pm

          Or we’re witnessing the stoking of resentment because the 1% realise that the 99% have twigged to the fact that all of these ills are of their, the 1%’s, making.

          And those feeding the fire, tRump, Bannon, Farage, assorted local loons, and well educated well off Western children who enrich themselves through their vile notoriety, etc, are wealthy elites who’ve now put a bob each way on us, the 99%.

          https://medium.com/heckin-doggo/the-weaponisation-of-the-working-class-adfeae345ce7

    • Draco T Bastard 11.2
      11 July 2018 at 3:50 pm

      The economically correct response for other countries to US tariffs is not to respond in kind and continue with unilateral trade liberalisation, while litigating the US measures at the WTO.

      HHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA

      The reason why we ended up with bi-lateral FTAs was because the WTO was seen as going too slow and being ineffective.

      And then there’s the point that free-trade, as it stands, has nothing to do with free-trade but forcing trade even when it’s against a nations willingness to trade and against their interests. If a nation chooses not to trade then that is actually an action of free-trade.

      The US and other countries putting up tariffs is free-trade. Forcing them to lower tariffs or to remove them completely is not free-trade but forced trade which I’m pretty sure that we supposed to oppose because it removes a nation’s freedom to choose, their freedom to govern themselves.

      If we truly wanted free-trade we’d be dropping all of the FTAs and the WTO and the IMF and the WB who all support and impose these FTAs and simply putting in place standards that other nations have to meet. Those standards would be, effectively, what our own businesses have to conform to.

      • RedLogix 11.2.1
        11 July 2018 at 4:02 pm

        Those standards would be, effectively, what our own businesses have to conform to.

        Agree with you on that. It’s deeply wrong that local businesses have to compete against imported products (and increasingly services) that don’t have to meet the same costly standards.

        The entire WTO process had ground pretty much to an impotent halt. If Trump succeeds in kicking the stalled beast into the ditch he may actually achieve something. Won’t be pretty though.

  12. Blazer 12
    11 July 2018 at 10:08 am

    Trump is bluffing imo.
    The initial $32 billion in tariffs and the threat of $500 billion to come is a ploy to gain some/any concessions.
    Trump is managing to alienate supposedly close allies in Canada and Europe and if his fortress mentality is genuine, the U.S will be the net loser.
    Realistically the only card the U.S has going for it,is military muscle.

    • RedLogix 12.1
      11 July 2018 at 10:59 am

      @Blazer … I’m assuming you are replying to my comment above. It works much better if you want to do that, to use the “Reply” button. It makes it clearer who you are talking to and makes the thread a lot easier to read.

      Cheers

    • Draco T Bastard 12.2
      11 July 2018 at 3:58 pm

      Trump is managing to alienate supposedly close allies in Canada and Europe and if his fortress mentality is genuine, the U.S will be the net loser.

      You do understand that the US build up their highly diverse economy behind high tariff walls right?

      • KJT 12.2.1
        11 July 2018 at 7:02 pm

        Yes. The USA, which was at it’s most prosperous when less than 5% of their economy was due to over seas trade.

  13. alwyn 13
    11 July 2018 at 11:00 am

    The truth about the Census stuff-up is starting to emerge.
    https://www.stats.govt.nz/news/update-on-release-of-2018-census-data
    Removing the spin we find that what has happened can be summed up as.
    “We fucked it up. We can’t fix it. We are therefore going to fudge it”
    When can we expect the resignations of the people responsible?
    The Minister, the Government Statistician and the person responsible for the organisation should resign, or be sacked, NOW.

    Any reaction from those people who hummed the chorus that everything was under control and “The countries in the very best of hands” now? An admission that you were wrong would be a good start.

    This Census is needed for, among other things, coming up with the electoral boundaries for the next election and the number of Maori seats. Watch the gerrymandering that will be attempted now.

    • Blazer 13.1
      11 July 2018 at 11:20 am

      An all fired up Nick Smith was interviewed on this by Espiner this morning .
      Espiner sliced and diced him as he tried to lay the blame on the co-alition.

    • ianmac 13.2
      11 July 2018 at 11:37 am

      You realise Alwyn that the planning came out of the National Government? And the process was left for the current Government to clean up – again.

      • alwyn 13.2.1
        11 July 2018 at 12:13 pm

        I know quite well what the timetable was, and when the current CoL took over
        They had four and a half months to check over what was going to happen, and plenty of time to correct the procedure.
        Didn’t Shaw ever bother to look at what was going on in the only significant thing he was responsible for?

        However look at the lies they spun after the Census. A fortnight after the election they claimed
        “We expect at least a 70 percent online response and combined with paper forms, the total response rate is anticipated to be well above 90 percent and on a par with previous censuses,” 2018 Census general manager Denise McGregor said.”
        Well previous censuses were closer to 98% and I certainly wouldn’t say that 90% is “well above 90%” would you?
        https://www.stats.govt.nz/news/census-on-track-for-70-percent-online

        I would really love to know where the 94.5% for earlier censuses comes from though.
        After all, from the 2013 census we were told
        “Results from the 2013 Post-enumeration Survey show that the 2013 Census counted 97.6 percent of New Zealand residents in the country on census night,”
        http://archive.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/population/census_counts/PostEnumerationSurvey_MR13.aspx

        Have a look at what experts think of their performance
        https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/10-07-2018/drop-in-census-response-rate-prompts-stats-nz-to-rely-on-other-data-to-plug-gaps/
        Then weep.

        Shaw had plenty of time to decide whether he thought the concentration on on-line with no back up made sense. They went ahead with it and he has to carry the can.

    • You_Fool 13.3
      11 July 2018 at 11:40 am

      Because something as big as the census is planned and done within a 6 month time frame, right? All the big decisions on how to run it would have been made around early march, right?

      Also my read is “the census is fucked, but that is what happens these days, we can fudge it to make it ok because we knew it would be fucked so we have thought about how to fudge it so it is still basically usable”

      The question is, “How bad is a 90% return rate in a census for a country of our size?”

      • alwyn 13.3.1
        11 July 2018 at 12:19 pm

        You ask
        “How bad is a 90% return rate in a census for a country of our size”
        Can I suggest that you look at the opinion of a Professor of Statistics, this one at the University of Auckland.
        “Indications of a 4.5% drop in response were “very serious”, said Thomas Lumley, professor of statistics at the University of Auckland. “The point of the census is that it’s complete, and it’s what you benchmark everything else to. Ninety per cent is really not good.”
        https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/10-07-2018/drop-in-census-response-rate-prompts-stats-nz-to-rely-on-other-data-to-plug-gaps/
        I am not sure where that 94.5% number comes from. I think that the spin is showing as they used to claim more like 98% in a New Zealand Census.

    • AB 13.4
      11 July 2018 at 12:13 pm

      Not sure why National is concerned about a Census stuff-up.
      You don’t really need to know anything about what’s happening in the country if the only tool in your tool-box is tax cuts.
      Because tax cuts solve all problems under all conditions – as we all know.
      So spare me all that data and planning crap – just roll out the tax cuts. /sarc

      • alwyn 13.4.1
        11 July 2018 at 12:21 pm

        I guess we can just continue to use the historical electorate boundaries for ever as well.
        After all nobody has moved to Auckland in the last 50 years have they?

        • AB 13.4.1.1
          11 July 2018 at 12:41 pm

          If there was an opportunity for gerrymandering I am sure National would take it, e.g. huge urban electorates and small, blue-voting rural ones. But MMP has sort of killed the opportunities for gerrymandering – maybe another reason why National is so keen to get rid of it? So it’s academic Alwyn – all that matters is tax cuts. Census schmensus!

  15. adam 15
    11 July 2018 at 11:58 am

    You know after three days of the debate dominated by the authoritarian left, any chance we could have some more voices for the anti-authoritarian left make some noise? Just a test to see if any of you are still out there?

    • Sabine 15.1
      11 July 2018 at 1:45 pm

      how dare us the authoritarian left be intolerant of the intolerance of the authoritarian right.

      good grief, what is this world coming too. People wanting rights to not only get married, but to do so with a cake!!!! Oh my oh my oh my.

    • One Two 15.2
      11 July 2018 at 9:59 pm

      Yes, Adam…Do not be surprised…

      This is the path to ‘idiocracy’…paved by those who can’t adequately manage their own mind…while believing they can have the ‘right’ to manage the minds of other human beings…

      Fundamental and elementary failure…

  16. adam 16
    11 July 2018 at 12:02 pm

    Trickle down economics, the best explanation in years.

  17. ianmac 17
    11 July 2018 at 2:37 pm

    “National MP Nicky Wagner apologises for calling Deborah Russell a ‘bitch’ in heated debate.”
    There we are then. It was just in the heat of debate.
    But I thought it was midway through a speech?

  18. Ed 18
    11 July 2018 at 2:49 pm

    George Monbiot nails it.

    “Whether human beings survive this century and the next, whether other lifeforms can live alongside us: more than anything, this depends on the way we eat. We can cut our consumption of everything else almost to zero and still we will drive living systems to collapse, unless we change our diets.

    All the evidence now points in one direction: the crucial shift is from an animal- to a plant-based diet. A paper published last week in Science reveals that while some kinds of meat and dairy production are more damaging than others, all are more harmful to the living world than growing plant protein. It shows that animal farming takes up 83% of the world’s agricultural land, but delivers only 18% of our calories. A plant-based diet cuts the use of land by 76% and halves the greenhouse gases and other pollution that are caused by food production.”

    https://t.co/EMuTldQtdy?amp=1

    • indiana 18.1
      11 July 2018 at 2:54 pm

      “Whether human beings survive this century and the next…”

      How many centuries have humans been in existence?

      • Draco T Bastard 18.1.1
        11 July 2018 at 4:15 pm

        Not many. Only a few thousand.

      • marty mars 18.1.2
        11 July 2018 at 7:55 pm

        yep generally 200,000 years is the figure – consider this – the dinosaurs owned the planet for 170 million years and we think they mooched around eating grass and leaves – I don’t think so – they could have had 1000 civilizations over that time and gone to the stars and back.

    • solkta 18.2
      11 July 2018 at 3:06 pm

      I assume by “plant based” you mean vegan and that you are still not prepared to actually think through this stuff. How could, for example, running a modest number of chickens grazing around an orchard be “more harmful to the living world” than growing just fruit?

      • Ed 18.2.1
        11 July 2018 at 3:59 pm

        These were not my words, but George Monbiot’s.
        Did you read the article and the research underpinning the information?
        Thought not….

        • solkta 18.2.1.1
          11 July 2018 at 4:15 pm

          Yes the assumption always is that you don’t write or think for yourself.

          I read the article and there was no mention of chickens or Permaculture. Perhaps just for once you could try thinking and attempt to answer my question:

          How could, for example, running a modest number of chickens grazing around an orchard be “more harmful to the living world” than growing just fruit?

        • mauī 18.2.1.2
          11 July 2018 at 7:43 pm

          Indeed another pointless attack by solkta. Obviously has something against the plant based diet, or just doesn’t want to engage.

          • solkta 18.2.1.2.1
            11 July 2018 at 7:52 pm

            Did you not notice that I was the one engaging and Ed was the one quoting somebody else and then refusing to back up that up with his own words? The two of you are the same, full of shit.

            I don’t have anything against people choosing to be vegan for personal reasons, and according to the definition of most contributors here i live on a “plant based diet”. What i object to is how the two of you conflate environmentalism and animal rights and make dishonest claims.

            I’ll give you another chance to “engage”:

            How could, for example, running a modest number of chickens grazing around an orchard be “more harmful to the living world” than growing just fruit?

            • mauī 18.2.1.2.1.1
              11 July 2018 at 8:39 pm

              Ed was quoting Monbiot, he doesn’t have to, nor can he back up someone else’s point of view.

              If my take on Monbiot’s writings are correct, focus on the “plant-based” and ignore the chickens for now. You may be over complicating things.

              • solkta …
                11 July 2018 at 8:54 pm

                Are you thick. Ed was quoting Monbiot presumably because he agrees with him. If he agrees with him then surely he would understand his argument?

                If he is presenting someone else’s argument then yes he is obliged to back up that argument with his own words.

                Do you think Monbiot is God or at least a god? Do you have any ability to think for yourself? Do you not understand how factory plant farming is fucking the environment?

        • Robert Guyton 18.2.1.3
          11 July 2018 at 8:11 pm

          I thought solkta’s question was fair. I too would like to hear Ed’s view about chickens.

      • Robert Guyton 18.2.2
        11 July 2018 at 7:47 pm

        Chickens are pretty hard on insects, as are weka. I’m not sure chickens are more beneficial to a forest garden/woodland orchard than not-chickens. In fact, I favour not having them scratching about. Can you convince me otherwise, solkta?

        • solkta 18.2.2.1
          11 July 2018 at 7:56 pm

          Probably not if you have made your mind up on what works for you.

          If we are talking about as an alternative to spraying the rows like most orchards then yes.

          • Robert Guyton 18.2.2.1.1
            11 July 2018 at 8:09 pm

            I see what you mean. I don’t/won’t/haven’t sprayed my orchard – it’s so well served by helpful organisms and elements I don’t need to. There are a lot of birds visiting my garden day and night. Chickens are a bit superfluous and quite foreign (the same could be said of me 🙂

            • solkta 18.2.2.1.1.1
              11 July 2018 at 8:22 pm

              but don’t you like eggs?

              I’m now buying “pasture grazed eggs”, rather than the so called “free range” version, from a guy at the Whangarei Growers Market. He uses a mobile hen house so that the hens don’t spend to long in one location. He wants to extend this concept and have these on many orchards. This is the kind of transition we should be looking at rather than the mindless ‘continue with factory farming but ban animals’ nonsense we get from Ed.

              • Robert Guyton …
                12 July 2018 at 8:49 am

                Hens in the under storeys of orchards beats egg farms every time, Imo. Vegans though, have found alternatives to the egg for baking etc.

    • Bewildered 18.3
      11 July 2018 at 7:20 pm

      All good but a plant based diet taste like crap so no thanks

  19. joe90 19
    11 July 2018 at 2:51 pm

    Apparently these judges may issue subpoenas, rule on proffers of evidence, regulate the course of the hearing, so of course tRump wants to be able to sack them if he doesn’t agree with their decisions.

    BREAKING: @realDonaldTrump @WhiteHouse releases Executive Order to end competitive selection process for Administrative Law Judges, making them political appointees who can be fired at will.— Andrew Feinberg (@AndrewFeinberg) July 10, 2018

  20. joe90 20
    11 July 2018 at 3:31 pm

    This should be good.

    Sarah Palin is calling on Sacha Baron Cohen to donate all the profits from his upcoming Showtime series to military veterans’ groups after saying she was duped into an interview with the comedian when he pretended to be a wounded warrior.

    http://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/396358-sarah-palin-says-she-was-duped-into-interview-with-sacha-baron-cohen

  21. Jenny 21
    11 July 2018 at 3:31 pm

    Free speech for fascists. (Not so much for everyone else).

    So according to you Bill, the right to free speech should be extended to the extreme Right Wing and fascists.

    And they should never have sought to shut them down.

    To reiterate. Free speech is a principle. And it’s not contingent upon people talking the way you want them to talk, nor saying things the way you like to hear them.

    Bill

    But not so much to the Left Wing, Eh Bill?

    Case in point:

    Silencing the singer

    Jenny
    11 February 2017 at 2:10 pm
    Below this post is the revolutionary Syrian song; “Time for you to go Bashar”

    In which, is the line;

    “You create thieves every day, Shaleesh, Rami and Mahar”

    The “Rami” that the song refers to is Rami Makhlouf, Basha Assad’s cousin. And the richest man in Syria….

    ….Compounding their robbery and oppression of the Syrian people, to preserve their beleagured positions as the rulers of Syria, Rami Makhlouf and Basha Assad are responsible for monstrous crimes against humanity.

    One of the heroes murdered by the regime was the man whose voice is on this recording, whose body was found in the river with his tongue cut out.

    https://thestandard.org.nz/heroes-2/#comment-1298465

    Jenny
    11 February 2017 at 2:25 pm
    Hero singer throat cut and voicbox and tongue cut out….

    http://freemuse.org/archives/5054

    [Sick and tired of you habitually posting mostly irrelevant comment upon comment on the bottom of threads that mention Syria in any way. I’m banning you for the weekend so I don’t have to keep an eye out, and I’ll ban you for a very long time if you ever pull this bullshit again.] – Bill

    Peter Swift
    11 February 2017 at 2:58 pm
    That’s a shame as I thought Jenny had provided an on topic example of a hero standing up against an oppressive regime, putting himself very much in harms way for doing the right thing.

    Thanks for bringing it to our attention, Jenny.

    https://thestandard.org.nz/heroes-2/#comment-1298489

    Bill
    11 February 2017 at 3:43 pm
    Oh, I fully believe that Syrian civilians were subjected to chemical agents and that gas canisters and water heaters were packed with both explosives and chemicals before being ‘lobbed’ into civilian areas (eg -western districts of Aleppo). I think we disagree on who the perpetrators are or were and what would constitute a reasonable motive (and the absence or presence of such a motive) for employing such a tactic.

    But that aside – well, it’s not ‘aside’ so much as in a similar vein – maybe ask yourself this. Would it be at all likely for a collaborator to have their throat cut by the likes of AQ? Would it be more or less likely for someone singing songs to have their throat cut by security agencies?

    https://thestandard.org.nz/heroes-2/#comment-1298501

    [Fuck off with your thoroughly dishonest bullshit Jenny. If you’re going to cut and paste replies from me, then cut and paste the correct ones and don’t fucking well cherry pick stuff out of context. This is going to Open Mike, and I’d be counting myself lucky that’s the only consequence. It would be a very bad idea to have me waste any more of my fucking time checking up on you.] – Bill

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • One Two 21.1
      11 July 2018 at 4:51 pm

      http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1571751,00.html

      SYRIA in Bush’s crosshairs -2006

      https://mobile.nytimes.com/2006/07/23/washington/23diplo.html

      US plan seeks to wedge Syria from Iran – 2006

      • Jenny 21.1.1
        12 July 2018 at 10:27 am

        Pretty slim stuff there, O.T.

        Naturally of course this site won’t allow any right of informed reply. So that this false narrative can be amplified and enlarged on, by propagandists and liars, covering up for the genocide being committed by the Assad regime.

        [lprent: I am happy to hand out actual bans when people request them. Do you want me to heed your current pleas like this one? Our “arbitrary” rules are there to keep our work levels down and to stop idiotic commentators imposing extra work on us.

        Of course we could impose systems that such “Free Speech” luminaries like “No Right Turn” uses (he doesn’t allow any comments) or Chris Trotter who personally approves or discards every comment or… Well if you look around the blogging world in NZ – you will find that we are about the only site with a substantive pile of comments (currently just over 1.4 million comments in nearly 11 years) that allows anything close to the ideal of “free speech”. It takes a lot of extra work and effort to do that – something that you clearly don’t respect.

        If I hear one more outburst from you complaining about the degree of freedom we allow to comment on this site, then you won’t ever have it here again. ]

    • Jenny 21.2
      11 July 2018 at 11:22 pm

      Even if, as is arguably the case, she’s a raging fucking hypocrite around free speech, and an obnoxious individual expressing lamentable, thoughtless or spiteful ideas, her right to speak freely ought to be defended.

      Bill

      Yet defending the Syrian people from slander and lies is not.

      [lprent: Of course you being an disrespectful arrogant fuckwit who chews up our personal time having to moderate your irrelevant shit on our posts is irrelevant in your world view? All “free speech” is constrained by resources when someone tries to impose extra work on others. In the case of this site we provide general topic areas like Open Mike for you to raise the “free speech” topics. Use those rather than what you appear to be doing in trying to strain our credibility about irrelevant comments in our posts.

      I have now killed several of your comments complaining about “censorship” This has wasted some of my work time. Do much more and I will permanently ban you for deliberately wasting my time. ]

    • Jenny 21.3
      12 July 2018 at 10:20 am

      I notice Bill that you have surreptitiously blocked me from the site. Interesting that you have claimed the opposite. That there has been no “consequence” other than having my comment moved to ‘Open Mike’. This is obviously a lie. But a dirty one. By deceitfully hiding the fact that you have banned me, you give readers the false impression that I have nothing to say in the face of face of your support of the rights of fascists. Or on your support for the monstrous regime in Syria. The truth of course is the opposite. It is you who cannot defend your views openly, or have them challenged in any open forum.

      You have also not notified the length of this ban, or if it is permanent.

      If you could let me know. I would appreciate it.

      Cheers J.

      [lprent: It isn’t a ‘ban’. It is a simple moderation because you have apparently been posting comments into posts which have very dubious relevance. That means one of the moderators has to release it if they think it is relevant to the post, when they feel like it, and when they have some spare time to respond to the whining.

      Basically if you don’t like it, then don’t try framing off topic crap into our posts. We’re the people who determine if it is relevant to our posts – you have OpenMike. Those are the site rules.

      Of course we could just simply ban you if you want to be an authoritarian dimwit and keep trying to impose extra work on us. But evidently Bill must think that you are able to be trained into respecting our time and effort. ]

  22. Pete 22
    11 July 2018 at 11:17 pm

    Very few have moved there that’s why over the past 10 years there hasn’t been a housing crisis there.

  23. eco maori 23
    12 July 2018 at 6:57 am

    Good Morning The Am Show I ts awesome to see that te tangata are getting more ta moko and learning our Maori Culture and te reo .
    I was doing voluntary work yesterday morning so had no time for my post .
    Dancan many thanks to the Big Business CEO that are joining together to fight human caused climate change ka pai .
    Loyd the atmosphere in Britain looks like everyone is getting a sore face lol .
    Rotorua is a beautiful place lots of Maori cultured tangata not much traffic friendly people its a good place for the mokopunas to be raised.
    Yes there are a lot of homeless people in Rotorua there are homeless people throughout Aoteraroa when I was younger there was one homeless person I won’t say his name but people of Gisborne will know who I’m talking about.
    Its good to see the Rotorua council is working with others to try and house the homeless people . Ka kite ano

  24. Jenny 24
    12 July 2018 at 9:47 am

    You mean by “checking up”, censoring of course. Not because I broke any arbitrary rules, but because you disagree with my views. And you don’t want to give them a hearing. So much for free speech is a “principle”. Only when applied to fascists it seems.

    [lprent: Authors have the right to decide what is relevant to their posts. You have OpenMike. Use it or leave. ]

  25. Eco Maori 25
    12 July 2018 at 2:34 pm

    It amazes ECO MAORI how much time the sandflys wasted on there stupid harresment of me I get a strange – – – – when ever they are around.
    ECO MAORI knows exactly what going on.
    I suppose I’m making know friends with my words who cares the big picture to me is a brilliant future for
    OUR Mokopunas what I said about the assistant Commissioner is not personal I not we can not have bullies running things as in the end we will end up like – – – – – fuck that link is Below
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ktvTqknDobU Ka kite ano

  26. eco maori 26
    12 July 2018 at 6:33 pm

    Good evening Newshub Eco Maori has stayed out of our nurses strike but Now I have to have my say on what I see happening everyone cannot work out why our good Nurses have not settled on the DHB offers .
    I say that the national party is the reason the Nurses won’t settle this dispute after all Papatuanuku was not built in a day so Ladies give our new Coalition Goverment some time to sort the mess out that national caused and behind OUR backs is using the Nurses to attack Our new Coalition Government. I know one will say that labour joined the protests when they were not in Government my point is that national is hiding behind the seens pulling the strings this is how right neo liberal people behave why don’t they just come out and say they are supporting the Nurses strike they caused this mess .
    Paddy many thanks for the story on 10/80 poision being dumped by Dock contractors in our native bushes I would like a total ban on 10/80 poision and that money payed to the common people in a tail bounty to control our native predator critters this could be used to educate te tangata about our rear wild life and hopefully they will respect our native wild life .
    I back that wahine that 24 hour care should stay operating in Nelson we need to start more of these around Papatuanuku . I have said before that a lot of the mokopunas that take there lives are the brights stars they see the big picture and don’t like what they see with a bit of care and love these mokopunas will benefit our society greatly
    My friend could see the big picture to . Ka kite ano P.S Temuera Morrison there’s that Maori cultured humor ka pai