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Open Mike 14/06/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 14th, 2018 - 219 comments
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219 comments on “Open Mike 14/06/2018”

  1. Jenny 1

    Sperm Whales the biggest toothed whale, and the model for Moby Dick, are washing up on Taranki beaches.

    The reason why 13 whales died off the South Taranaki coast is a mystery that may never be solved, but scientists are learning about how they lived.

    Marine ecologist Dr Karen Stockin is collaborating with other scientists in studies that may indicate how many of the whales there are, where they roamed and if they ate plastic.

    With growing concerns about global warming and plastification of the world’s oceans, this was important research, she said.

    Stuff.co.nz, June 13, 2018

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/104672020/scientists-uncover-secrets-of-whales-lives-before-stranding-in-south-taranaki

    • Jenny 1.1

      Related comments and articles:

      “Eight dead sperm whales found on Taranaki Beach”

      DoC says it is planning its next steps, and will try to have a veterinary pathologist investigate why the whales stranded and died.

      Newshub – 24 May, 2018

      A flurry of oil and gas exploration is set to be unleashed in Taranaki during the next 18 to 36 months as companies make decisions on whether to ‘drill or drop’ existing permits.

      Stuff.co.nz – MIKE WATSON, May 19, 2018

      There are 31 oil and gas exploration permits currently active, 22 are offshore. These permits cover an area of 100,000 square kilometers, nearly the size of the North Island, and run as far out as 2030 and could go an additional 40 years under a mining permit.

      The Maritime Executive News – March 14, 2018

      Oil and gas companies use seismic airgun blasting to find oil and gas deposits, creating one of the loudest human-made noises in the ocean.

      According to government estimates, as many as 138,000 whales and dolphins along the East Coast from Delaware to Florida could soon be injured or possibly killed if seismic blasting is allowed…..

      …..The loud and powerful blasts from seismic testing could cause temporary and permanent hearing loss in dolphins and whales. After seismic testing occurred near Peru, about 900 long-beaked common dolphins and black porpoises washed up dead along a stretch of beach. Upon examination, the dolphins were discovered to have had fractures in their ear bones and signs of bleeding from their middle ears.

      Live Science – June 6, 2015

      Russel Norman – Greenpeace’s executive director – and climate activist Sara Howell to be sentenced, July 6, 2018

      A week-long trial was due to start today at the Napier District Court, but the Ministry for Business, Innovation and Employment last week indicated that it would drop charges against Greenpeace if the pair pleaded guilty themselves.

      Greenpeace had faced fines of up to $200,000 under the 2013 controversial “Anadarko Amendement” in the Crown Minerals Act, which made it an offence to interfere with oil exploration ships at sea.

      It was the first time anyone has been charged with the crime.

      Appearing via video link from Auckland, Mr Norman and Ms Howell pleaded guilty and were remanded on bail, on the condition that they must not offend again against the Crown Minerals Act.

      Judge Geoff Rae questioned whether that was necessary but the lawyer acting for MBIE, Cameron Stuart, argued it was given there were current protests over offshore oil exploration in Taranaki.

      Both Mr Norman and Ms Howell have sought discharge without conviction and will appear again in Napier District Court for sentencing on 6 July.

      https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/356256/russel-norman-pleads-guilty-over-oil-protest

      The Fight Goes On

      Rally to repeal the Anadarko Amendment

      Be in Napier on July 6 to show solidarity with Sara and Russel

    • SaveNZ 1.2

      +1 Jenny

  2. Tamati Tautuhi 2

    14/6/18 Daisy Cutter Sports Inc
    The Standard Pick Six Trolling Report

    Well we absolutely smashed it out of the park yesterday there was great trolling activity, we got the Pick Six easily however it didn’t pay out that well and we nearly picked every winner on the card. We had the usual trolls operating, however some new trolls emerged during the day engaging in healthy debate with other runners in the field. I have been accused of being a troll myself and I suffered abuse from other trolls and trolls who were really pissed off they didn’t make it onto the Official Trolling Register.

    I won’t publish the results from yesterday as we all know we had a lot of fun and a very entertaining day debating each other. Pick Six, Early & Late Quaddies, and the 3 x Trebles were correctly selected.

    Anyway we are going to introduce a Troll Ranking System please comment if you wish.

    Below are the list of identified trolls with no particular ranking as that would be biased and political affiliations are not noted under the Privacy Act 1997

    Stunned Mullet
    James
    Baby Gaga
    Tamati Tautuhi
    Gosman
    David Mac
    Solkta
    Alwyn

    Happy trolling today ????

    • James 2.1

      Second rate bully attempt trying to shut down debate.

      You going to call people cock suckers because they don’t agree with you again today – or you going with fresh insults ?

    • Baba Yaga 2.2

      I’m gutted. Number 3! What’s so special about James and SM?

  3. Tamati Tautuhi 3

    Maybe Cameron Slater enticed them onto the beach ?

    • Jenny 3.1

      Metaphorically I suppose, yes.

      Giving a new meaning to the term;

      “Whale Oil”

      • Jenny 3.1.1

        We used to kill them for the oil in their flesh

        Now we kill them for the oil in their seas

        • Robert Guyton 3.1.1.1

          Jenny – what leads you to believe the whales died as a result of the activities of the oil industry? Genuine question.

          • saveNZ 3.1.1.1.1

            @ Robert, very suspicious circumstances with the whales deaths, you certainly can’t rule out seismic blasting, until the autopsy when perhaps it will be revealed a stomach full of plastic?

            • Brigid 3.1.1.1.1.1

              An autopsy won’t prove seismic blasting was the cause of death though.

              • saveNZ

                Yes, but autopsy might identify if it was death by plastic.

                I’m against the blasting either way.

              • Robert Guyton

                Brigid – is there not some forensic evidence when seismic blasting is the cause? Does seismic blasting not kill outright? Is it in fact, a causative agent to an other more deadly factor; that is, does it confuse, leading to beaching or something along those lines?

            • Robert Guyton 3.1.1.1.1.2

              saveNZ – the whale deaths are presently unexplained. I hope facts will surface. Suspicion is one thing, confirmation another. I wouldn’t like to point the finger till I have something factual to support the accusations because that leaves one vulnerable to easily-taken pot-shots from industries that might be looking for opportunities to belittle their critics.I’ve ruled nothing out, but look forward to reliable information. This issue interests me greatly.

          • Jenny 3.1.1.1.2

            Robert Guyton 3.1.1.1
            14 June 2018 at 7:25 am
            Jenny – what leads you to believe the whales died as a result of the activities of the oil industry? Genuine question.

            Kia ora Robert,

            Thanks for the question.

            Did these whales die because of the activities of the oil industry, I cannot say.

            The reason why 13 whales died off the South Taranaki coast is a mystery that may never be solved…,

            Stuff reporter Catherine Groenestein – June 13, 2018

            What I can say for certain, is two things; One that the Sperm Whale is endangered, and Two, that deep sea oil prospecting is being done in the waters that they inhabit around our coast.

            Also fairly certain, is that sonar mapping of the sub-seabed for hydrocarbon deposits using seismic blasting, is damaging to these creatures.

            Are Sperm Whales endangered?

            Threats
            Historically:

            whaling
            (mainly 1800-1987) took at least 436,000 sperm whales, but possibly as many as 1,000,000. Hunting of sperm whales by commercial whalers declined in the 1970s and 1980s, and virtually ceased with the implementation of a moratorium against whaling by the IWC in 1988.

            Currently:

            ship strikes
            entanglements in fishing gear
            although these are not as great of a threat to sperm whales as they are to more coastal cetaceans

            disturbance by anthropogenic noise
            notably in areas of oil and gas activities or where shipping activity is high
            pollutants (e.g. polycholorobiphenyls (PCBs), chlorinated pesticides (DDT, DDE, etc.), polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs), and heavy metals)
            The potential impact of coastal pollution may be an issue for this species in portions of its habitat, though little is known.

            To which I might add, the cause of death of these creatures could possibly have been more definitively determined if an autopsy had been done as had been first promised.

            Though an autopsy was promised in the first reports of these deaths, it was not carried out due to the advanced state of decomposition. Instead only skin tissue samples were taken.

            If an autopsy had been done, damage done to these animals by seismic blasting could have been ruled out, if there was no damage to their inner ears. Damage caused by seismic blasting to cetaceans is very distinctive, fractures in their ear bones and signs of bleeding from their middle ears.

            Oil and gas companies use seismic airgun blasting to find oil and gas deposits, creating one of the loudest human-made noises in the ocean…..

            …..The loud and powerful blasts from seismic testing could cause temporary and permanent hearing loss in dolphins and whales. After seismic testing occurred near Peru, about 900 long-beaked common dolphins and black porpoises washed up dead along a stretch of beach. Upon examination, the dolphins were discovered to have had fractures in their ear bones and signs of bleeding from their middle ears.

            Live Science – June 6, 2015

            • Robert Guyton 3.1.1.1.2.1

              Thank you so much, Jenny. Why weren’t the inner ear tests done – the inner-ear bones presumably don’t degrade, as flesh does and signs of fractures would be discernible. Can you OIA the details? In any case, do fractures to the ear bones result in death? If so, How? Those dolphins you cite were dead and washed up, as were the whales. Who’s doing the testing? Can you access their findings? So far, I see no definitive evidence, though I would certainly like to. This is an issue that seems to be “smeary” – can you get to the bottom of it? Someone needs to cut through the smog with real details and facts to present. I hope you can.

              • Stuart Munro

                Ewan Fordyce at Otago is all up on Whaleontology – mostly fossil, but some fresh for comparative purposes. He could tell you who to ask. Whale earbones are fairly robust, they’re some of the last bones to break down so many survive into the fossil record. It would probably be soft tissue damage that would tell the story, and that requires reasonably expeditious postmortem dissection.

                • Robert Guyton

                  Interesting, thanks Stuart. Of course, scientific detail aside, there’s the obvious ” an extraordinary number of sperm whales died mysteriously here – what happened???” aspect of the case; there’s room for commonsense , intelligent guessing and so on, if it’s tempered by some self-awareness of bias, predetermination and confirmation bias, etc. I’m keen to get to the bottom of the whale deaths.

    • cleangreen 3.2

      National trolls dont ‘debate’.

      They just repeat their ‘diatribe’ until they believe it is seen as the truth.

      They are simple minded bullies that cannot tolerate other views.

      national = toxic.

      • alwyn 3.2.1

        You aren’t the greatest debater in the world yourself.
        In fact you simply refuse to get into one.
        When you make wild and untruthful comments people ask for some evidence for your fantasies.
        Have you ever justified any of your claims?
        Have you ever admitted that one of your claims is b**s?
        Come on old chap. Just try it.
        For a start why don’t you tell us where you got the information that the current Government are going to re-enter Pike River this year.
        You made the claim here and I asked for the source.

        Open Mike 14/06/2018


        Now why don’t you put up or admit that you were lying?

        • WILD KATIPO 3.2.1.1

          Well no , hes not ‘lying’ at all .

          ———————————————
          … ‘ They are simple minded bullies that cannot tolerate other views ‘…
          ———————————————

          The thing is with you RWNJ’s,… is that despite the facts glaring you full in the face your usual resort is to bully and mock , …so here’s some of your own stinking shit thrown back at you ;

          ———————————

          John Key and Bill English :

          ” Most young NZ workers are too drug addled and lazy to be efficient workers”…

          MOTIVE and TRANSLATION ?

          ‘We want a large source of cheap imported labour to put downwards pressure on wages in this country ‘.

          John Key and Bill English :

          ” Crisis ? – what housing crisis ?!!? ”

          MOTIVE and TRANSLATION ?

          ” We want to degrade state housing so that we can justify selling them off to our corporate mates so that they can then make huge profits by housing the poor and adjusting rents to free market levels ”.

          John Key :

          ”Glen Greenwald is one of Kim Dotcoms little henchmen and Nicky Hager is a screaming left wing conspiracy theorist ” .

          MOTIVE and TRANSLATION ?

          ”SHIT ! , – this Moment of Truth and that damn Greenwald is cutting right to the bone about the XKEYSCORE public surveillance program. And the head of the National Security Agency has just been pinged in court for illegal activity in America !!! , …I hope I don’t get caught out lying about it !!!,… I better approach the SIS to drag out some irrelevant documents to support my stance, – just hope the public doesn’t realize its irrelevant ”…

          ”And that bloody Hager !!! Dammit !!! , – We better put Jason Ede out to pasture pronto! The Dirty Ops office party is over !!! , – and no , – I NEVER WAS IN CONTINUAL CONTACT WITH CAMERON SLATER !!! ”

          ” OOPS!! , sorry , – I forgot , – yes I did text him a ‘few’ times… ”

          ———————————————————

          So as you can see, while many of us give the broad elements of an issue ,… doesn’t necessarily mean they are lying. As CLEANGREEN hasn’t lied. However , when put in perspective by viewing just some of the events in NZ ‘s recent political history ,… it must be admitted ,.., that for the last 9 years of National party govt , …NZ was an increasingly dark place to live.

          And it was that way because the inner core of the National party have been proven to be consummate duplicitous liars.

          Key reminds me of this mug:

          Bill Clinton–“I did not have sexual relations with that woman” – YouTube
          Video for i never had sex with that woman bill clinton you tube▶ 0:40

          • alwyn 3.2.1.1.1

            You aren’t a doppelganger for Cleangreen are you?
            Like him you refuse to debate, and you suffer very badly from KDS.

            Perhaps you can answer the question he ignores then.
            What is the date, this year, that the CoL has identified for re-entering the Pike River mine and penetrating the mine as far as the workface?

            Simple question and you could answer it in one of 3 ways.
            1. Provide the date, and give the source for your claim
            2. Admit they aren’t going to do it this year and provide their nominated future date..
            3. Admit your claim was wrong and that you have no idea of the answer.

            Since Cleangreen never answers questions and refuses to ever give any evidence to support his claims perhaps you will do it for him?

            • WILD KATIPO 3.2.1.1.1.1

              Too busy taking the piss out of you to be overly concerned with any of your puerile demands ,… however ,… are you trying to pull another ‘Labour does it too ‘ angle?

              Truth is they will do it,… and….. after all the lies of Key and English ,… and keeping the family’s hanging for 7 years,… I think we can all rest assured that the Col will be there for the family’s in a timely fashion.

              If your so obsessed with exact dates,.. perhaps you could e mail Andrew Little yourself ?

              There’s a good wee man,… now… trot along…

              • alwyn

                Well that is clear enough.
                You chose option 3.
                Thought you would.

                • I don’t do demands and I don’t pander to contrarians.

                  If it means that much to you do some research. Just don’t come along here with your own vacuous negativity trying to use those tactics to undermine your political rivals,… so we could say instead…. that how about YOU find out when the date is set.

                  Im sure it will fall WAY within the track record of the National party of 7 years complete with trying to use Solid Energy to seal off that shaft forever in case Labour won the election.

                  And putting it that way and demonstrating the viciousness of both Key and English ? ,… your contrarian squeaking’s are almost comical if they were not so viscous in of themselves.

                  • In Vino

                    Wild Katipo – alwyn has a long history of disingenuous and punctiliously disputative squeakings.

  4. ScottGN 4

    This was from Stuff back in February. Avocados have never been less than 3.50-4 bucks each at my local supermarket since exports to China started.
    https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/101230367/first-nz-avocados-arrive-in-china-as-export-harvesting-comes-to-close

    • Tamati Tautuhi 4.1

      We have been airfreighting avocados to Australia until the end of May. NZ production of the Hass variety has finished, early production in NZ generally starts around July/August from Motiti Island. The main harvesting season normally starts September.

      There is some Reed variety available at the moment, which is about $1.50-$2.00 per fruit on the wholesale market. (Reed is actually a better tasting avocado than Hass however it is a green variety cf Hass which turns black)

      Whatever fruit available in the marketplace is probably the tail end of last season’s production.

      We sometimes import avocados from Australia at this time of year as their production has started.

      • ScottGN 4.1.1

        I wonder why we don’t see more Reed and even Fuerte in the shops in NZ?

        • Tamati Tautuhi 4.1.1.1

          A majority of the fruit grown here in NZ is Hass which is the most popular variety worldwide for storage and taste.

          The growers tend to focus on export and the 2nd grade fruit is sold on the NZ market.

          Only small plantings of Reed & Fuerte here in New Zealand.

    • AsleepWhileWalking 4.2

      Yea that price is the same range where I am.

      I saw advertised “low fat” avocados (New World) which was just weird. Haven’t seen them since. I don’t think I would have eaten them on a dare.

      Never have I looked at an avo with so much suspicion. I think I’ve been traumatised.

      • solkta 4.2.1

        What next, low fat olive oil?

        • Tamati Tautuhi 4.2.1.1

          … or non fat water from a Chinese Bottling Plant with a Green Label from Otakiri Springs in Whakatane.

          • solkta 4.2.1.1.1

            You are seriously diminishing the quality of trolling here. Some would have thought that not possible.

            • alwyn 4.2.1.1.1.1

              “Some would have thought that not possible.”

              That is certainly true. Prior to the election the Green Party made such brave statements about how they were going to cease exporting water or letting foreign companies get access to it.

              Now, for the sake of a few jobs, a Green Minister has rolled over and allowed it. She says she had to do it because
              “We had to consider “substantial and identifiable” benefits to New Zealand. That’s jobs, exports, greater productivity and additional capital investment for the country.”
              Is a few dozen jobs really a “substantial benefit”?

              I suspect the only job she was really concerned about was her own. Tsar Winston would have sacked her.

              • And soon the Right Honourable Winston Peters will be the Right Honourable Winston Peters Acting Prime Minister ,… cant wait.

                Neo liberal heads of all rank and description will be rolling. Even sued.

                They are all scared of him.

                Why? – because hes a great man !

                L0L !

                • alwyn

                  Well the LOL is right. Your wild fantasies about the “great man” certainly made me laugh.
                  Do you realise how much you sound like the nuttier Trump believers?

                  • Yes the ‘ L0L’ was designed specifically to elicit that response from you.

                    And I / we knew you would bite like a starving box terrapin. And I also knew you would use the almost Godwin like Trump comparison.

                    The facts are you , your neo liberal buddy’s who you drink beer with on Saturday nights and your idols in the National party , and their embedded mates in govt depts, – are all shitting bricks when the great man the Right Honourable Winston Peters Acting Prime Minister of New Zealand takes charge.

                    Because I know and you know , and everybody else knows ,… that signals the end of the neo liberal partytime in Aotearoa, New Zealand.

                    For you , and your ideologues?

                    Its over.

                    Bye bye.

                    • alwyn

                      Well you certainly don’t seem to be a beer drinker anyway. They may get a bit maudlin and go quiet but it doesn’t seem to affect people in the way you exhibit.
                      The closest I have ever seen to your ravings is a person I saw at a party many, many years ago.
                      He scared the hell out of me with his behaviour. I was told that he had been taking LSD. What is your drug of choice?

                    • Coffee!

                      Tea!

                      And formerly , tobacco.

                      I probably scare the hell out of you because I am not some sort of pretentious wanker who likes to be with the in crowd and , unlike you , have a working class background, one hell of a sense of humour ( which you obviously don’t with your stitched up mannerisms ) , – and while growing up in the bush , – soon discovered that you don’t need many consumer trappings at all, and especially to help you feel as if you have a dick that’s ten feet long to prop up your ego’s like your lot , mate.

                      Here’s one just for you.

                      The Builder – YouTube

  5. DB 5

    Round the corner from me was the cutest wee brick house and section. It was a state house and an elderly gentleman lived there. The moment he died the powers that be went in and condemned the house to be demolished.

    CONDEMNED.

    A few months later the new owner, a banker, adds a large extension to the house while not tearing down a single brick of this ‘condemned structure’.

    Now bankers are firmly ensconced in a state house, which is no longer a state house, it has been turned into another sprawling piece of crap without character – like the owners.

    There’s a porsche in the drive. A status symbol that reads c**t.

    • James 5.1

      I call bullshit on your story.

      • Robert Guyton 5.1.1

        Is it bedbugs, James? A dripping tap? Cats fighting during the night? Jock itch?

    • AsleepWhileWalking 5.2

      Naturally you can provide us with an address.

    • cleangreen 5.3

      National use any means of “condemn” as a method to prohibit us from anything that was ours.

      Take the greymouth westland mine disaster for another example.

      the natiomnal Government then hastily closed the mine after the disaster where 30 men perished and tried to seal it with a concrete door to ‘prohibit’ any relatives from entering it in seach to recover their loved ones, and it was a crown owned mine.

      Unbelievable, theyare truly a national disgrace that we shall see the truth of later this year as they re-enter the mine to find they were responsible for those deaths of 30 miners needlessly.

      “lest we forget”.

      • alwyn 5.3.1

        ” later this year as they re-enter the mine”.

        Would you care to tell us of the date, this year, that they are going to re-enter the mine?

        The various CoL parties promised us a re-entry and going to the workface this year when they were campaigning. They didn’t think that were going to become the Government so it was quite an easy promise to make.
        Then it became the end of March 2019. Then Little confessed that it was going to be later than that. He hasn’t given an updated estimate.
        Why is it so hard for you to accept that you have been conned. It is never going to happen. Labour, New Zealand First and the Green Party have lied to you.

        • dukeofurl 5.3.1.1

          Key promised re -entry too
          ‘No matter what it takes’ he told the families
          ‘Dont listen to anyone play on your emotions and tell you otherwise’ he said

          That was all said when he was PM and about 9 months after.

          He reneged on that of course, and continued to lie that he did inspite of the video being available.
          New version was ‘rentry was only a possibility’

          • alwyn 5.3.1.1.1

            That makes it alright then.
            A former National Party leader said it to.

            To be fair of course, this Government would be doing a great deal better if they did simply do all the things that National did.
            It is when they try to do something different, just for the sake of being different, that they really are stuffing up.

            • WILD KATIPO 5.3.1.1.1.1

              The list of incompetence and vicious ulterior motives of the National party is FAR , FAR too long to be bothered giving any real response to this ridiculous poster.

              Consult Blip for further evidence, or even Peter Gluckman.

          • babayaga 5.3.1.1.2

            Key never promised anything of the sort. What he said was that recovering the bodies was an ‘absolute priority’, and that they would do “everything we practically could to get the bodies of the victims out”. (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10805355)

            Andrew Little himself has stated he cannot guarantee a re-entry of the mine and has told family members that he will do what he can but safety is the top priority (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11945226). Although that certainly isn’t what the Coalition Agreement says. More Labour lies.

            • Puckish Rogue 5.3.1.1.2.1

              After the news that there had been several explosions and the men would not have survived, Prime Minister John Key told the miners’ families recovering the bodies would remain “an absolute priority”.

              He later promised to do “everything we practically could to get the bodies of the victims out”.

              Do you mean to say that some on here have been misquoting what Sir John Key said?

              Gosh that’s unusual

              • babayaga

                I would also note that the comments I referenced were quoted from a meeting Key had with the families. Key’s detractors have for some time been exploiting the Pike River families in order to make a political point. It’s damned disgraceful.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  The worst thing is they think its justified because “fuck John Key”, I’ll be very surprised if anyone goes into that mine to retrieve the bodies

    • saveNZ 5.4

      I can believe it DB. Another villa in flats in Ponsonby has the same ( the developers put demo orders on them so that they can remove easily in historic areas). The place was bought and not pulled down and actually seems to be a social housing project.

      The council experts and the associated BS reports from the ‘experts’ are just worthless.

      Time to have social and environment issues as important as making a quick $ out of planning in our laws. It was sickening to see the unitary plan being overtaken with greedy developers and people with their paid environmental lawyers who made the rules in their image.

      Funny enough I seem to remember that a very expensive cliff top promenade was given status not to be intensified… funny that where the owners of those mansions had their lawyers under full instructions to intensify (aka make money out of zoning changes) where ever they could everywhere else in Auckland.

      But wait put an extra kitchen in, in the basement to make an affordable flat in a housing crisis, no way, that would bring down the prices!

  6. F 6

    Siiiigh. Shane Jones. Head in hands!

    • Ad 6.1

      Agree, but.

      Anything in particular?

      • Ffloyd 6.1.1

        I actually rate Shane mostly but sometimes less is more. Rhetoric I mean. And now is not the best time for coalition to be piling on distractions that National buzzards can escalate, usually ably assisted by our world class investigative journalists and political commentators to the detriment of our Government. I feel a little bit jittery about NZF at the moment.

        • Ffloyd 6.1.1.1

          *world class* sarc.

        • Ffloyd 6.1.1.2

          I wasnt meaning to say that what Shane Jones is saying isn’t correct, but just that by the time he’s finished saying it I have forgotten what he is talking about. He goes off into sort of long winded dialogue which takes away from the message he is trying to impart. It would be better if he kept it shorter and more succinct.

    • saveNZ 6.2

      Nope Shane Jones is right about this and right about Air NZ, and I am not a Shane Jones fan. Tired of NZ business ripping off Kiwis and having Kiwis subsidise their egos with pathetic overseas investments that lose millions again and again aka Fonterra and Obama Golf games for Air NZ, while crying poor in other areas of service to their customers/owners.

  7. Robert Guyton 7

    “Marama Davidson: Was the Minister able to consider the environmental impacts of taking the water when she made this decision?

    Hon EUGENIE SAGE: That is not a matter that the Minister for Land Information can take into account under the Overseas Investment Act; it is a matter that is considered under the Resource Management Act. The Bay of Plenty Regional Council notified its application.

    Marama Davidson: Was she able to take into account Te Tiriti concerns and the opposition of mana whenua when making this decision?

    Hon EUGENIE SAGE: The application concerned the purchase of sensitive land under the Overseas Investment Act. That Act limits the issues that can be considered. I considered those issues, and I wasn’t able to take those concerns into account.”

    A Minister has responsibilities beyond their party ideals. No Minister can quickly change laws to appease their party members,” (occasionally PG says something sensible, inside of his generally anti-Green posts).

    • Robert Guyton 7.1

      NoRightTurn adds (or more likely began the conversation) :
      The harsh reality of government

      Yesterday Land Information Minister Eugenie Sage granted a consent under the Overseas Investment Act for a Chinese water bottling company to buy land near Whakatane, effectively allowing them to suck the Otakiri Springs dry for foreign profit. Green Party members are naturally upset because the consent flies in the face of local Treaty claims and is contrary to party policies aimed at ending foreign water-theft, or at least charging a fair resource rental for it. Unfortunately here they’re up against the harsh reality of government – namely that being in government doesn’t mean you get to do what you want. Our Ministers are not despots, and have to obey the law – and the law on granting foreign companies consent to purchase sensitive land is very specific and doesn’t let the Minister refuse consent just because her party wants her to. And because the law does not include a Treaty clause (or any respect for Maori rights), she couldn’t refuse on those grounds either. Basicly, Sage had no choice but to grant the consent – and if she had refused it, the decision would likely have been overturned by judicial review.”

      • Puckish Rogue 7.1.1

        Hindsight is 20/20 and all but I bet the Greens hierarchy are regretting not doing a better job in negotiations for the make up of the government

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/104696508/and-they-thought-being-in-opposition-was-hard

        “That’s the deal with government, however. What’s easy to smack down in Opposition becomes a head ache when you actually have the power to change things – because with every decision there can be a chain reaction of unintended consequences.”

        • Bearded Git 7.1.1.1

          NZ has masses of water to sell overseas. Providing this is done properly in the right places and it doesn’t affect the local water supply this really is a silly issue for the Greens to get het up over.

          What the Greens SHOULD be arguing is that there should be a 10c levy per litre extracted, and that money raised from this levy is 100% used for environmental purposes, especially pest eradication, preferably not 1080.

          • Puckish Rogue 7.1.1.1.1

            Well what they could have done is negotiated with National and let both NZFirst and labour know that National was a possibility (even if they weren’t) then they could have negotiated a much better deal from Labour and NZFirst

            • solkta 7.1.1.1.1.1

              No the Greens could not have done that as they campaigned on being part of a Labour led government and this strategy was ratified by the membership. Playing the games that you suggest would have destroyed the party.

              • Puckish Rogue

                Well what they’ve been doing recently (or had done to them) isn’t exactly going gang busters for them either

          • Draco T Bastard 7.1.1.1.2

            NZ has masses of water to sell overseas.

            No we don’t.

            We actually need all the water that falls on the country for the health of the country and our people. Selling it over seas decreases our ability to live.

            • Grantoc 7.1.1.1.2.1

              We harvest about 2% of rain water that falls on NZ. The rest flows away.

              Its ridiculous to claim that we need all the water “that falls on our country.” Why do ‘we need it”? What would we do with it? How do you propose harvesting it all?

              We can barely manage that water which currently does fall on the country; Consider the impact of a weeks rain in Poverty Bay.

              • Draco T Bastard

                Its ridiculous to claim that we need all the water “that falls on our country.”

                No it’s not. It keeps the rivers and the fish in them healthy. It helps keep them swimmable. It ensures that our forests have the water that they need to thrive.

                Basically, it keeps the environment thriving and with that we thrive too.

                Harvesting it all will kill the environment and us.

                We can barely manage that water which currently does fall on the country; Consider the impact of a weeks rain in Poverty Bay.

                Have you considered why heavy is now a problem?

              • John up North

                I agree DTB, we need all the water that falls on our country!

                QFT
                “Basically, it keeps the environment thriving and with that we thrive too.”

                And then we get the followers like Grantoc that believe that if nature is left to do it’s thing without someone making a buck out of it, well there’s something wrong here……… what about growth!!!

                As we are seeing in Christchurch, good high quality drinking water, that can be consumed by humans without any negative effect and little expensive screening/filtration is in very high demand and there isn’t squillions of mega litres of never ending supply some pundits harp on about.

                And if Grantoc looked up from his shoelaces he would read/see the many, many reports as to why the rain in Turanganui a Kiwa caused so much devastation…………………….. Growth! (GREED!)

        • dukeofurl 7.1.1.2

          Greens number of MPs ( from their low party vote) was the problem, hence all other issues flow.

          7-8% green vote makes all the difference but 6.25% is just a beginning

    • SaveNZ 7.2

      Time for the Greens to reform the RMA and stop overseas firms being handed our assets on a plate (or bottle) while our own citizens who pay the taxes and live here are increasingly in poverty and facing high water prices and costs to clean up polluters.

      RMA and it’s narrow focus, has got to go!

      If they do that they will appease a lot of Green voters and add more.

      • Stuart Munro 7.2.1

        It’s hard to credit the OIO decision – what unique benefits does a Chinese bottler bring that a NZ one would lack? Nothing springs to mind. Time the OIO was wound up and a firm no was said to predatory foreign corporates.

        • Draco T Bastard 7.2.1.1

          Yep. Foreign ownership brings no benefits to NZ but does have serious detrimental effects such as being sued when we try to change our laws for the betterment of our people.

        • saveNZ 7.2.1.2

          Yep time to ban foreign owner ship of NZ land and property or have it limited to 25% of an asset.

          Also time to stop residents/citizens getting free health care and super and voting until they have been resident for 10 years+ and actually resident for 80% of the 10 years and positive tax payers not needing the Kiwis to top them up with welfare after 5 minutes in the country.

          We need the money for our own poor so they can escape poverty, not throw more people into the mix to be poor and compete with other poor for housing and jobs.

      • Bearded Git 7.2.2

        Disagree SaveNZ-just levy them; see my comment above.

        • SaveNZ 7.2.2.1

          @Bearded Git, they need to do both. No point getting 10 cents for water if they dry it up or pollute it, or make conditions more difficult for other local businesses.

          It is not all about money and short term profits, and the RMA has to be reformed to reflect that and put more consequences on the owners of the consents when things go wrong or if they get caught later having lied about what they were going to do. In those changes the consent should be revoked immediately.

      • solkta 7.2.3

        The change needed is in the OIA not the RMA.

        • saveNZ 7.2.3.1

          They need to change the OIA and the RMA. According to the link @ 7. someone put out there, she was not able to assess it RMA criteria but it will fail there anyway because it is so weak on environmental criteria. RMA encourages risk because it is up for others to identify the risks and it is not a risk adverse or long term way or wholistic way of looking at planning.

          Mark my works, it will sail through council under RMA criteria because it is also not robust enough.

      • dukeofurl 7.2.4

        Not anything to do with RMA. Which is locally decided anyway.

        OIA is the issue.

    • bwaghorn 7.3

      This is the best thing that could have happened to the greens . Time to learn how running a country works . Time to learn that things don’t change because they reckon this is how it should be . Now to the moaning green mps scuttle off ,pull your finger out and work the long game to achieve your goals.

  8. Ffloyd 8

    Paul Goldsmith on now. Is he the one who told his people not to vote for him in Empson???

    • Tamati Tautuhi 8.1

      Was not confident up against the might of David Seymour ACT, a true revelation in the Dancing With the Stars Show, he is certainly providing us with some superb entertainment. The schoolgirls in Epsom are drooling over him and going crazy voting on their burner phones. Haven’t seen such dancing skills from a man since I was in Cuba 15 years ago ???

  9. Tamati Tautuhi 9

    Goldstein has told the Press “Shane Jones is out of line for telling Fonterra that they are useless ???”

    • Treetop 9.1

      Let the farmers decide, not the politicians.

      Jones makes a good point.

      • alwyn 9.1.1

        “Jones makes a good point”.
        Did you also admire his incredibly witty comment where he insulted a lot of New Zealanders with Dutch ancestry.
        “Double Dutch” for crying out load. What a brilliant turn of phrase! How stupid can he be?
        Still, he is quite safe. Prime Minister Tsar Winston isn’t going to do or say anything unless he starts to overshadow Winston himself.

        • saveNZ 9.1.1.1

          Most of the Dutch people in NZ have probably been here for decades or born here and identify as Kiwis rather than being sympathetic to a 8 million CEO screwing up again and again.

    • Tamati Tautuhi 9.2

      Goldstein wants Jacaranda to give that boy a whipping, he should pull his pants up, take his hand off it and go back to that little boys school in Epsom he went to ???

  10. Treetop 10

    More disconnection from people who are fortunate enough to live in a good home and have enough to eat.

    HNZ have purchased 3 hectares of land in a Northland suburb and some of the home owners do not want state/social houses built there.

    • AsleepWhileWalking 10.1

      Three hectares of high density social housing sounds a bit crazy.

      I think any location would cause an uproar given that social housing is viewed much the same if not worse than a prison. The extremist “we’re not going to kick them out ever”, or ” if someone exhibits anti social we will move their neighbors” bullshit will make the objections louder.

      Hell, given the attitude of anything goes I object.

      • Treetop 10.1.1

        High density housing is not ideal. This practise needs to be reviewed and stopped.

        I know of a council complex where the housing manager sanctions anti social behaviour and does not process complaints even when the police have become involved in a complaint. A barrister had a jury lined up to hear a case and the previous tenant settled. The council have become worse.

        ALL tenants sign a tenancy agreement and are entitled to not be harassed and feel safe.

        Where do you put a tenant who blasts you with sonics and has displayed threatening behaviour?

        Not with law abiding tenants.

        • saveNZ 10.1.1.1

          You need mixed housing. Not social housing. For example if you put in cheap rents for teaches/police it will immediately change the dynamic and make people feel safer.

          High rises also are bad for the soul. No gardens. Much greater costs to build per square meter and to maintain and of course fire and fall hazards.

          Terraced housing is a better solution.

          • saveNZ 10.1.1.1.1

            These ideas of social housing in the middle of nowhere seems more like apartheid and out of sight out of mind. Will not work. Soon will be like other countries where there are slums and places so filled with crime the police fear to go and the other residents are forced to live with gangs running the place.

            Or in the ‘good’ neighbour hoods the do the Grenfell tower thing and have administrators who eventually kill the residents while taking profits for themselves.

            • Treetop 10.1.1.1.1.1

              Where to put the houses and what type of houses is important. Especially if carless or have chronic health.

          • Draco T Bastard 10.1.1.1.2

            High rises also are bad for the soul.

            No they’re not.

            Much greater costs to build per square meter and to maintain and of course fire and fall hazards.

            But far cheaper per person after all the added costs of sprawl have been taken into account. Sprawl is far more expensive than high-density.

            • babayaga 10.1.1.1.2.1

              More propaganda from the public transport lobby. No thanks. Sprawl and build interconnecting high speed rail and road connections. Let’s do this!

              • Draco T Bastard

                Sprawl and build interconnecting high speed rail and road connections.

                No.

                Sprawl simply costs too much.

            • saveNZ 10.1.1.1.2.2

              Your clearly have never paid for Body Corporates in NZ or got quotes for any building work on high-rises… in addition it might be great for singles but as soon as you have kids, they are a problem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNJch8EhepQ

              P.S. on another level why don’t we want refugees in NZ, 100,000 migrants and 1000 refugees… pathetic, something seriously wrong with NZ government thinking

              • Draco T Bastard

                The body corporates need better laws governing them as the laws have been ignored for decades as the government pushed unsustainable sprawl. At least some of us are waking up to the delusion that a car based sprawl really is.

                As for kids:
                Squeezed, and loving it: 5 kids, 2 adults in a 1,000-square-foot condo

                Adrian Crook has discovered life is better once you abandon the accepted wisdom that you need a house and backyard to raise happy kids.

                A divorced dad, Mr. Crook lives in a 1,023-sq.-ft. high-rise rental condo with his five children and partner Sarah Zaharia. He has three boys and two girls, ages 8, 7, 6, 5 and 3 – or, as some people call them, “the countdown.”

                Mr. Crook and his family might be the extreme, but they are the new model of modern Canadian life – urban, minimal and connected to their community. He doesn’t see their lifestyle as cramped, or as a temporary phase, or second best to living in a detached house. Although living small is not for everyone, Mr. Crook says he wouldn’t have it any other way. He’s so pleased with the arrangement that if someone gave him $1-million, he says he still wouldn’t buy a house. Instead, he would sock the money away.

                I suspect that he’s going to have some issues once the kids become teens but I doubt it will be serious.

                If the city provides good parks then no house needs it’s own playground for the kids.

                City Kids: Why Parents Pick City Living Over the Suburbs

                The ‘American Dream’ may have dominated the last few decades, causing a mass exodus to the suburbs, but today’s families are reversing the trend and turning their attention back to the city. The reasons are many: An appreciation for cultural offerings, the camaraderie and creative cross-pollination of networks of colleagues, friends and family, the convenience of being able to walk or bike to school, work or child care without a long commute—just to name a few. New York City has always been a haven for the forward-thinking, albeit a challenging one. And its newly-”discovered” outer boroughs as well as an unprecedentedly low crime rate have made the city a prime choice for family living.

                There’s more where that came from.

                The US dream is also the NZ Dream. Wonder why they’re the same dream. Perhaps it was marketed that way.

        • Draco T Bastard 10.1.1.2

          High density housing is not ideal.

          Yes it is.

          Where do you put a tenant who blasts you with sonics and has displayed threatening behaviour?

          In rehab.

          • saveNZ 10.1.1.2.1

            and what if rehabs is full…. maybe stop the growing number of people going off the edge of society before they get there… and I don’t think a high rise full of similar types is the way forward.

            • Treetop 10.1.1.2.1.1

              I am going to interrupt.

              No decent person wants a hoarder, sonics blaster, intimidating, harassing, alcoholic, unemployed, substance abuser, thief or elder abuser where there is a thin wall between you and them and you have to walk past their doorway.

              Probably the cost of housing and the cost of living sent them off the rails in the first place.

              Some people with very complex health and behavioural problems need specialist and supervised housing.

              Fix housing and poverty will be halved. Crime going down would also be apparent.

          • Treetop 10.1.1.2.2

            Some people cannot be rehabilitated and they may have a condition example korsakoff syndrome a type of dementia due to alcoholism. It is unkind and non productive to make a person already struggling homeless.

            It is harsh and probably illegal to expect the other tenants to put up with harassment and threatening behaviour.

            There are insufficient rehab beds for P addicts, P is fueling crime and prison is not the answer.

            What is the answer when a person cannot be rehabilitated, does not want to be or has brain damage?

            Doing nothing for the person with the offending behaviour is not the answer. Neither is driving already vulnerable people out of their home.

            I did not make the High density housing is not ideal comment.

            • Treetop 10.1.1.2.2.1

              DTB I owe you an apology for saying I did not make the High density housing is not ideal comment. I made this in 10.1.1.

              My sincere apology.

  11. Tamati Tautuhi 11

    9 out of 19 Auckland City Councillors are not happy with Goof Ball and have written him a letter telling him there is a culture of “bullying at Auckland City Council” ?????

    • Robert Guyton 11.1

      An effective vote of no confidence has to have 75% support from council – 9 of 19 isn’t 75%, so the letter is nothing more than a media stunt. I reckon.

      • ScottGN 11.1.1

        And the media lapped it up.

      • Richard McGrath 11.1.2

        However it has to be said that one of the 9/19 is rabid commie Cathy Casey, ironically pushing for greater transparency and annoyed that Goff is starting to behave like Stalin.

        • Stuart Munro 11.1.2.1

          Has he sent the refuseniks and saboteurs to the gulags? Is he cruising Auckland’s Arbat in black limos grabbing young women off the streets? If not, maybe you need a better simile.

          • Richard McGrath 11.1.2.1.1

            Stuart, the key word here is “starting”… as in just starting to believe he should have absolute power, and thinking how he might wield that power. This Politburo revolt might throw a spanner in the works for a while.

            • Stuart Munro 11.1.2.1.1.1

              Frankly the Auckland council (including Goff) are such ratbags on average the gulag’d be the best place for them. But he’s not doing that, merely some bureaucratic waltz that will lull his middleclass boomer supporters into ignoring him again.

              Penny wants to see his books – seems the case for the waterfront stadium doesn’t stack up. SSDD.

      • Richard McGrath 11.1.3

        It’s a wake up call for The Great Leader.

    • Ad 11.2

      Doesn’t matter at all.

      Budget and rates and taxes are set.
      With those votes locked and done, Councillors can go home.

      Auckland’s CCOs will take those budgets with their mandate and get the tasks done.

    • SaveNZ 11.3

      They had a point. Goff has his own agenda to sell out Auckland city to his neoliberal mates aka PWC at 1 million is fine as a fee. Not sure how you can justify a 1 million report that is paid by ratepayers but they are unable to view it, to check it’s value for money and neither can the other councillors?????? If it is just for Goffs eyes only, maybe he should foot the bill himself?

      And being redacted??? WTF? It’s not exactly a state secret, maybe one of those fake Jihadii brides might read it? It should be a public document as it’s paid for by public money and these docs never have anything new in them.

      It’s probably just a knock off of other docs that they did around stadiums/conference centres and they don’t want any body to find out how pathetic their docs are and what 1 million in the private sector gets you, aka Sweet FA and why they only charged their last customer $100k for it, but feel they can rip off ratepayers! Goff balls licked it up by the sound of it.

      • Gabby 11.3.1

        You have to wonder whether the commercial sensitivity was about how deep the business interests propose dipping into the ratepayers’ pocket.

  12. dv 12

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12069824
    A bankrupt Auckland builder who gambled more than $20 million of concealed cash and lost over $1.5m – money he could have used to pay back his creditors – has been jailed.

    Xie continued to unlawfully run his business between July 2010 and August 2015. When he went on to receive approximately $1.5 million in earnings through his business dealings, rather than pay his creditors, he put it into slot machines at SkyCity Casino,” van der Schyff said.

    What struck me was a bankrupt was able to gamble $20m at sky icy!!!

    ARE THERE NO CHECKS by sky city?

    It seems to me that sky city have some responsiblity to pay the creditors.

    • Tamati Tautuhi 12.1

      Sir John Key is mates with Sky City no checks and balances required ???

    • DH 12.2

      “ARE THERE NO CHECKS by sky city?”

      More like are there no brains at the Herald. He gambled what he lost – $1.5m.

      He may have done better tham most, 1.5 against 20 equates to house odds of 7.5% and I thought SkyCity pulled more than that on their pokies.

      • dv 12.2.1

        But no checks anyway, $1.5m is ‘reasonable’ sum too.

        No checks against the undischarged bankrupt list either!!!

        • DH 12.2.1.1

          Point taken. It is a lot to feed into slot machines although for SkyCity it might be a common occurence too.

          If SkyCity really addressed problem gambling they’d go broke. To my mind anyone who visits regularly is a problem gambler, the house always wins in the end.

          • Draco T Bastard 12.2.1.1.1

            If SkyCity really addressed problem gambling they’d go broke. To my mind anyone who visits regularly is a problem gambler, the house always wins in the end.

            QFT

          • dv 12.2.1.1.2

            If SkyCity really addressed problem gambling they’d go broke

            GOOD

    • Treetop 12.3

      There is a bright side to this. National wasted 100 million of HNZ money.

      The loser is, bad management does not build homes. Less homes built the more expensive they become.

    • saveNZ 12.4

      Chinese 8th most wanted gambled 500 million at Sky City. Yes not a mistake on that number. Nobody worried about the money laundering, apparently at Sky City. He just gave circa 80 million to the justice people and it all went away and he got 4 months home detention in his penthouse in the end.

      So funny, not, when you look at Solka’s comments about Maori in prison. Well if you are Asian and rich maybe you get a free pass… this guy might not be rich enough to avoid a jail term though, There needs to be enforcement of good character in the immigration rules, if you go bankrupt and owe 20 million, revoke the residency/citizenship and never allow them to return to NZ, let alone ability to start another business and go bankrupt again while hiding 20 million is cash.

  13. Tamati Tautuhi 13

    Unfortunately not all these little slanty eyed people we have let into NZ under the National Government are honest like us New Zealanders.

    [Yeah. Take your racist tripe elsewhere. Banned for one week] – Bill

    • solkta 13.1

      You are not seriously going to troll that racist line given the number of Maori in prison?

      • marty mars 13.1.1

        Just cos the tr0ll uses the name does NOT mean they are tangata whenua. By their actions and words are they known. And the tr0ll above shows what a complete nobody they are.

      • saveNZ 13.1.2

        Yes but apparently hiring an illegal worker for 3.5 years is a $3000 fine and poaching paua is 12 months prison and 3 year ban from fishing and police taking dive gear and sending a fake letter to Fonterra is 8 years in prison, killing 29 miners is a dollar fine from work safe and no criminal prosecution. Me thinks something a bit weird about NZ law and the punishments.

        • solkta 13.1.2.1

          What the fuck has that got to do with our new troll and his racist comment?

          • saveNZ 13.1.2.1.1

            @Solka, It was in relation to your comment in relation to Maori in prison and why maybe other races don’t end up there in the same numbers.

            Some crimes pay, some don’t. Some criminals pay, some don’t.

            And of course some people in prison are not actually guilty.

            And some people out of prison are guilty.

    • Robert Guyton 13.2

      Stupid comment, Tamati. Not clever, not amusing. Not interesting.
      Here’s something far more worthwhile:
      Chinese import

    • marty mars 13.3

      racist prick – demean yourself troll

    • James 13.4

      Yesterday it was Cock suckers. Now it’s little slanty eyed people.

      This is the level you are taking the standard too.

      I called you out on what you were saying yesterday and will do so again today.

      Stop with the homophobic and racist language- the site and commenters deserve better.

    • Ffloyd 13.5

      Sad comment Tamati.

  14. Tamati Tautuhi 14

    Chinese horticulturalists bringing these in, have you got a phone number or a web link I am interested in getting hold of some seed ?

    • Robert Guyton 14.1

      You want seed from those you call “little slanty eyed people”.
      I fear you are a fool.

    • DH 15.1

      Jones is only saying what should have been said long ago IMO. Fonterra has blown enormous sums on business debacles and they have not received the brickbats they deserve.

      “Fonterra half year loss of $348m after Beingmate writedown of $405m ”
      https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/dairy/100780871/hefty-loss-expected-by-fonterras-chinese-investment-partner-beingmate

      Add to that a few hundred $million lost on the Sanlu melamine scandal and $178million awarded to Danone over the botulism scare. They’re not exactly captains of industry are they (paid like it though).

    • Richard McGrath 15.2

      He’s running decoy to take the heat off crim-hugger Kelvin Davis.

      • Puckish Rogue 15.2.1

        Kelvin who? Never heard of the guy, what does he do?

        • alwyn 15.2.1.1

          I’m not sure what he does.
          I know what he doesn’t do of course.
          He clearly doesn’t read any of his papers. When they announced the new prison yesterday he obviously didn’t realise that two thirds of the prisoners were going to be sharing cells. Have a look at him on the TV news and you will see that it was a total surprise to him.
          This from a man who before the election attacked any mention of double bunking.
          Somehow he also seems to think he is going to save money when he replaces a $1,000 million plan to take the prison up to a 3,000 inmate facility with a $750 million proposal that will provide for a total of 500 people.
          Somehow I don’t think he learnt simple arithmetic when he was at school.

      • Ffloyd 15.2.2

        What the hell is a crim
        hugger. Never saw him giving Key a hug.

      • adam 15.2.3

        Oh look another regular little “Hate In”.

        As always; devoid of facts, high on its ideology, and rank in smell.

    • Pete 15.3

      Only to those who want to be distracted and want to label him thus. Maybe there’s a club. Maybe you could join.

  15. The Chairman 16

    I see the Greens are claiming their Minister was only following the law over the water bottling land sale decision.

    The law states Ministers must consider “substantial and identifiable” benefits to New Zealand.

    Would you class 60 new jobs over 4 years to be a substantial benefit to NZ? I don’t.

    Would you class export revenue that will largely return to the offshore owners a substantial benefit to NZ? I don’t.

    Would you class capital investment to upgrade and expand the existing bottling plant that will be used to increase their water take, thus return (which will largely head offshore) a substantial benefit to NZ? I don’t.

    Therefore, there were/are good grounds for Eugenie Sage to argue there are no real substantial benefits to NZ from this sensitive land sale.

    Did she argue these points in case or did she just rollover?

    • solkta 16.1

      She looked at the law as it is and did what she had to do as a minister. It is not up to dickhead trolls to decide what the law is but rather the Courts. It would have been a huge waste of time and money to decline this and then have the Court overturn the decision under judicial review.

      But of course you know that. You really are a crap troll.

      • The Chairman 16.1.1

        I wasn’t attempting to decide what the law is. I was highlighting there are/were good grounds for her to make a case against granting this decision. But it seems she just rolled-over.

        And speaking of crap trolls, I see you’re the one on the troll list.

        • Puckish Rogue 16.1.1.1

          There maybe good reasons but if she did the case would go to court and she’d lose (because of the law) and it’d be a massive waste of money

          “And speaking of crap trolls, I see you’re the one on the troll list.”

          Probably not a good idea to champion someone that says:

          “Unfortunately not all these little slanty eyed people we have let into NZ under the National Government are honest like us New Zealanders.”

          • The Chairman 16.1.1.1.1

            The case would only go to court if the owners disagreed with the ruling. Then it would be up to the court to decide. And as highlighted, there are grounds for this to be argued.

            I wasn’t champion anybody, merely highlighting the audacity of solkta calling me a crap troll when they’re the one talking crap and are on the troll list.

            • Puckish Rogue 16.1.1.1.1.1

              From the redoubtable Robert Guytons post:

              NoRightTurn adds (or more likely began the conversation) :
              “ The harsh reality of government

              Yesterday Land Information Minister Eugenie Sage granted a consent under the Overseas Investment Act for a Chinese water bottling company to buy land near Whakatane, effectively allowing them to suck the Otakiri Springs dry for foreign profit. Green Party members are naturally upset because the consent flies in the face of local Treaty claims and is contrary to party policies aimed at ending foreign water-theft, or at least charging a fair resource rental for it. Unfortunately here they’re up against the harsh reality of government – namely that being in government doesn’t mean you get to do what you want. Our Ministers are not despots, and have to obey the law – and the law on granting foreign companies consent to purchase sensitive land is very specific and doesn’t let the Minister refuse consent just because her party wants her to. And because the law does not include a Treaty clause (or any respect for Maori rights), she couldn’t refuse on those grounds either. Basically, Sage had no choice but to grant the consent – and if she had refused it, the decision would likely have been overturned by judicial review.”

              “I wasn’t champion anybody, merely highlighting the audacity of solkta calling me a crap troll when they’re the one talking crap and are on the troll list.”

              What troll list? Do you mean a list made by someone that just called asians slanty eyed? Thats the person you’ve decided is a good judge of who is or isn’t a troll?

              • The Chairman

                Bit slow today, Puck?

                While she couldn’t have refused on the two grounds NoRightTurn highlighted, she could have made a case on the grounds I highlighted. Yet, it seems she didn’t even try.

                “Thats the person you’ve decided is a good judge of who is or isn’t a troll?”

                I made no reference to their judgment.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  “Yet, it seems she didn’t even try.”

                  She didn’t try because it would be a waste of money because the grounds you highlighted mean nothing when it comes to application of the law

                  “I made no reference to their judgment.”

                  You just said “And speaking of crap trolls, I see you’re the one on the troll list.” how is that not accepting their judgement

                  • The Chairman

                    The grounds I highlighted are what she had to consider under the law.

                    “How is that not accepting their judgement”

                    It was merely stating a fact. They’re on the list.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      I must congratulate you, I wasn’t sure if you were really dumb or being a good troll

                      Well done

                • dukeofurl

                  The decision is not made by Sage, it was made by Land Information (OIO).
                  There are only limited grounds to decline Land informations decision.

                  Heres what she could do, which is more than NRT suggests.

                  34 Ministerial directive letter
                  (1)
                  The Minister may direct the regulator by a Ministerial directive letter, and the regulator must comply with it.
                  (2)
                  Subsection (1) applies even if the subject matter of the Ministerial directive letter relates to a power that has been delegated to the regulator.
                  (3)
                  A Ministerial directive letter may direct the regulator about the following things:
                  (a)
                  the Government’s general policy approach to overseas investment in sensitive New Zealand assets, including the relative importance of different criteria or factors in relation to particular assets:
                  (b)
                  the asset types, value thresholds, and area thresholds over which the regulator has power to make decisions:
                  (c)
                  the level of monitoring required in relation to conditions of consent:
                  (d)
                  the criteria for including reserves, public parks, or other sensitive areas on the list kept by the regulator under section 37:
                  (e)
                  any general or specific matter relating to the regulator’s functions, powers, or duties.

                  http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2005/0082/27.0/DLM356881.html

                  • The Chairman

                    “The decision is not made by Sage”

                    Yes it was. But not her alone.

                    The decision was made with the associate finance minister, based on advice from the Overseas Investment Office.

                    Under the law the Ministers must consider “substantial and identifiable” benefits to New Zealand. I highlighted grounds that would have allowed to argue for declining the decision.

        • solkta 16.1.1.2

          I was highlighting there are/were good grounds for her to make a case against granting this decision

          That’s you right there saying what the law is. Could you give some examples of precedents where similar applications have been denied?

          • The Chairman 16.1.1.2.1

            “That’s you right there saying what the law is.”

            No. It was me highlighting there are/were good grounds for her to make a case against granting this decision.

            And offhand, I have no other examples that set a precedent, which isn’t required for the case in point to be argued. Moreover, arguing for and against is within her roll to do so as a deciding Minister.

            And I’m sure other Green supporters would have expected her to do so. Seems she is just another pushover, using the law as an excuse. Causing a lot of discontent among Green supporters. Which won’t help improve their polling.

            • solkta 16.1.1.2.1.1

              Precedent is one of the things that the Court would consider. The law as it is has been there for a long time and has been interpreted in a certain way but then along comes a Green minister and makes the decision on party policy rather than the law. I would think it would be a straightforward case.

              Based on the law and the precedents set there were not good grounds for declining this application.

              • The Chairman

                I’m not saying a precedent wouldn’t be helpful, However, it’s not required to argue the case.

                Moreover, the argument isn’t based on party policy, it’s based on the so-called benefits (which aren’t really benefits IMO).

                The law is subjective thus can be challenged. And as you can see, there are grounds there (as I highlighted above).

                And where is the precedent set that you are claiming?

                • solkta

                  I don’t see any grounds at all. 60 jobs is significant in that part of he country.

                  The precedents are every decision that has been made by every minister since the law was passed.

                  • saveNZ

                    More details of jobs needed. AKA salaries are they 8 million like Fonterra or $18 p/h? How do you enforce that over time?

                    Will we come back in a few years and find they are all jobs for Chinese and at low enough rates so they all qualify for generous benefits like WFF, AS and free health care… cos if that is the case and you do the cost benefit analysis then not only does the company get to strip our water for next to nothing, they make the taxpayers pay a substantial part of the workers welfare as well…and then there is the pollution aspects…

                    Even if all the new jobs were paid at $100k then they would still not be enough benefits to justify it. 40 jobs is not many. And apparently we need 90,000+ workers in last year and still industry braying for more (under $20 p/h workers of course are the favourites)

                    • solkta

                      If you were unemployed and living in that area you might then consider those jobs significant.

                  • saveNZ

                    @Solka, “If you were unemployed and living in that area you might then consider those jobs significant.”

                    The weird thing is, that we have our immigration policy that seems to ignore the unemployed when they grant 90,000 people work permits for things like pumping petrol or working in a cafe or liquor store or buying up property or small businesses but then under the OIA a few paltry jobs of 60 means a sell out of public environmental assets to the private sector…

                    There seems to be no end of ministries of xxxx being set up, latest one is housing, but apparently no interest in going beyond that and maybe setting up our own companies and employing our own unemployed and locals to harvest our own assets. Maybe government too lazy to actually get something off a piece of paper and into a practical realm?

                    • solkta

                      Foreign workers are a different issue. What we are talking about here is an OIA application. Not a lot of work in that part of the country.

                  • The Chairman

                    60 jobs over 4 years isn’t substantial. 81 jobs in the region (within 25km) were listed over the past month alone.

                    Every decision previously made isn’t a precedent for this particular ruling. If they were, there would be nothing for the Minister to decide.

                • Gabby

                  What do you reckon they need the extra land for chairy? They keeping the water in a lake or sutin?

          • saveNZ 16.1.1.2.2

            Someone has to be first to set the precedent Solka!

            I seem to remember even the Natz managed to prevent one of the Crafer farms maybe? being sold offshore using OIA.

    • saveNZ 16.2

      +1 The Chairman

      • Grey Area 16.2.1

        +1. Surprisingly I agree with The Chairman. 60 maybe jobs is not significant. 2-300+ maybe.

        The relevant legislation is a bad law (which needs to be changed) but it appears to have been badly applied in this case.

  16. cleangreen 17

    solka;
    That was out of order;

    Clean your diatribe up please.

    Civility please; – you said “dickhead trolls” abusive language.

    • Puckish Rogue 17.1

      You don’t like “dickhead trolls” being used and fair enough but just out of curiosity what do you think of the following sentence:

      “Unfortunately not all these little slanty eyed people we have let into NZ under the National Government are honest like us New Zealanders.”

  17. Gabby 18

    Looks like irony to me puckers, given the fairly blatant dishonesty of ‘us New Zealanders’. If Tomato is also fdom the Depublik off Soth Efdikka, t’s either even more or slightly less ironic.

  18. Puckish Rogue 19

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12070140

    In an interview with Newstalk ZB’s Heather du Plessis-Allan, Davis revealed the Corrections Department had contingencies in place if numbers continued to grow.

    “They are not pretty plans.”

    “Corrections is looking at options and talking about what we need to do. They could be mattresses on floors and things like that.”

    This is getting beyond a joke, could you imagine the outrage from the left if National suggested anything like this?

    Maybe instead of building a prison thats too small they could have built a prison big enough that prisoners don’t have to, potentially, lie on the ground

    Its only been six months but the COL should heed these words:

    ”You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. In the name of God, go!’

  19. Gabby 20

    Do you think he approves of the mattresses on floor brainwave puckers? It seems more like a Davy Carrot piece of inspiration.

  20. DB 21

    Did a social experiment today dressed in older wrinkled up lint coated clothing and $10 warehouse shoes like I was fresh outta the poor shop.

    Was in a gardening store, all the canna lillies were dying from pythium. I pointed to a product on the shelf he could use to save them. He looked at me like pond scum. Nope I aint, but I study it. Free advice from a trained plant pathologist – no thanks I’m a businessman!

    Took my business elsewhere.

    That man wants a sports car from his business, not happy clientele. You can tell them by the way they judge your shoes.

    In a cafe got treated like royalty. Cosy Cafe Onehunga, great service and food, thank you.

    Went to get a car quote for shocks. The quotes ranged from $470 to $1100. One store I think quoted so high just to make me go away. “*** ****, you’ve come to the wrong place”.

    All in all a very interesting morning. There is prejudice against the poor, or possibly bad clothing, even in Onehunga.

    • OnceWasTim 21.1

      @DB. Good to see others doing similar experiments.
      You should go back sometime wearing your best tweeds.

      • DB 21.1.1

        Have worn an expensive suit into town a few times and it opened doors… doors to conversations I never wanted. Want to find sickening racism and sexism in NZ, put on a suit and go talk to other suits.

        Bloody moths ate that suit. They didn’t eat the cheap clothing, oh no, these moths are from Westmere.

        We’re all snobs round here.

      • alwyn 21.1.2

        They were his best tweeds.
        Now stop teasing the poor chap. Not everybody here can afford to get their clothes tailormade in Saville Row the way you do.

    • Draco T Bastard 21.2

      Reminds me of the story I heard when doing a business course.

      Farmer walks into a car lot dressed in black shorts, black singlet and gumboots and starts looking Jaguars. The salesman approached and encouraged him to leave.
      A short time later he sees the same guy driving up the road in a Jaguar from his competitor. Concerned he races over to his competitor and asks why he was letting that poor bum test drive the Jag.
      The competitor looks at him strangely and then says “He’s not test driving it. He bought it. The only reason it took so long was that he had to go to the bank to get the cheque.

  21. indiana 22

    I wonder if the Tories hold up “We hate Jeremy, too” signs directed at the Labour MPs…

    “Jeremy Corbyn urged his MPs to abstain but 75 voted for and 15 against, while six quit their frontbench roles.”

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44474661

    • Draco T Bastard 22.1

      Well, the UK membership know who not to support into being candidates next election.

  22. Pete 23

    Warning to Parliamentary cleaners:

    BE CAREFUL , MORE TOYS ON THE FLOOR TODAY

  23. Robert Guyton 24

    This is beautiful. Jones eviscerates…

  24. Ad 25

    Well, with the oversight of Minister Sage, the OIO have done the right thing and gained a bit of Waiheke Island back into New Zealand hands:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/104685875/waiheke-airfield-back-in-kiwi-hands-after-controversial-forced-sale-to-foreign-buyers

    Gotta catch them doing good 🙂

  25. Eco Maori 26

    Good morning The AM Show I warned our new Mp David Clarke to watch out for the setups that situation could have easily been choreography to Duncan. nothing. My questions are why this health board person did not come out to the media and whisle about the shocking condition of our hospital this is clearly another set off blue arrows from the cheats national nobody else is allowed to behave like the national cheats or wants to behave like them no morels.
    Eco Maori knows why Robbie Williams flipped the Bird . That’s was a good start to the Russian Football World Cup.
    Good story Duncan about people being trafficked/ smuggling it took 2 years for the dairy farmers to change there attitudes to Kiwi workers Slaves is whom national pitted Kiwi workers futures against a totally unfair contest hence I’m working a – – – – job at minute one point is I have not seen heaps of Chinese people on farms???????.
    There you go the Aotearoa image might not live up to the advirts but what does. I still say we have to clean up our environmental ACT but our environment is heaps better than some.
    I did say that all we need to do is to advise around the world not just the western world the whole world about our Premium quality food products and the wealth will flow its not rocket science. Some People if they can’t find there country of origin food products than they prefer New Zealand food products.???? In the year 1800
    The settlers could not understand the Maori consepet of food being Tapu I get it you are what you Eat and could have bad side effects if the food is not healthy and safe.
    Good morning W
    Ingred weres Amanda.
    Ka kite ano P.S the sandflys don’t think I see there supermarkets moves try again ECO MAORI see it all just to much to mention. – – – – – –

  26. Eco Maori 27

    The AM Show Are you going to say that national has acted efficly for the last 9 years look at the mess in Aotearoa at the minute Priminster does not do stupid things you know what I mean.
    Ka kite ano

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    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • The anti-fluoride brigade won’t be erecting billboards about this study
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    1 week ago
  • Chosen To Rule? What Sort Of Christian Is Chris Luxon?
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    1 week ago
  • War of the worms
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    1 week ago
  • Marvelly shows us how to be a feminist without feminism
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    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Out of the past – Tories to revive racist laws from the 16th century
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    1 week ago
  • 1000 of these now
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    SciBlogsBy Grant Jacobs
    1 week ago
  • Has Shane Jones Just Saved NZ First?
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    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: As predicted
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Let this never be forgot
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    2 weeks ago
  • Too Late To Change Capitalism’s Flightpath?
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    2 weeks ago
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    SciBlogsBy Helen Petousis Harris
    2 weeks ago
  • Climate Change: Passed
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Retailing of vaping products – New NZ Research
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    2 weeks ago
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Britain’s climate tyranny was unlawful
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Vaccination, compulsion, and paternalism for the lower orders
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    SciBlogsBy Eric Crampton
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    2 weeks ago
  • 11,000 employed under Labour
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Boycott this democratic fraud
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
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  • Climate Change: Ban private jets
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Climate Change: Untold Suffering
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • The left and violent misogyny
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    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Imperialism and the iPhone
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    2 weeks ago
  • The freshwater mussel housing crisis: eviction by invasive weeds?
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    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    2 weeks ago
  • Back it up Luxon: endorsing the destructive past is not actually the way forward
    And to think he gave all the potential goodwill away with that moronic, cult-like statement (repeated ad nauseam by many National hardliners) that Key is quite simply “the greatest PM we ever had”… Installation complete: this was nothing ...
    exhALANtBy exhalantblog
    2 weeks ago
  • Good riddance
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Climate Change: D-Day
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago

  • Wayne Brown hits back at critics: Ports of Auckland has to move
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    7 hours ago
  • Week That Was: Supporting our schools
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    14 hours ago
  • Kiwis to have their say on End of Life Choice
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    5 days ago
  • Addressing miscarriages of justice
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    6 days ago
  • Week That Was: Historic action on climate change
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    1 week ago
  • Tax-free deployments for Kiwi troops
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    1 week ago
  • A balanced Zero Carbon Bill passed
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    2 weeks ago
  • Paramedics’ status to be recognised
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    2 weeks ago
  • Week That Was: 2,000 teachers in two years
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    2 weeks ago
  • Winning an election one conversation at a time
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    2 weeks ago
  • Closer cooperation with Korean horse racing industry
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    3 weeks ago
  • Otago to lead digital creativity
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    3 weeks ago
  • Young Otago students encouraged to take on forestry careers
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    3 weeks ago
  • PGF backing Dunedin’s waterfront ambitions
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    3 weeks ago
  • M. Bovis eradication progress welcomed
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    3 weeks ago
  • PGF boosts Otago’s engineering and manufacturing sector
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    3 weeks ago
  • Minister Peters discusses Pacific challenges and denuclearisation in Seoul
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    3 weeks ago
  • PGF supports high speed broadband for marae at Parihaka Pa
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    3 weeks ago

  • Reform of public service a step closer
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    6 hours ago
  • Donations scheme to relieve pressure on families
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 hours ago
  • Further support for Samoan measles outbreak
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 hours ago
  • Speech to the Child Poverty Action Group 2019 Summit
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    11 hours ago
  • Speech to the New Zealand Thoroughbred Racing Annual Conference
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    11 hours ago
  • Fairer rules for tenants and landlords
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Two decades of marine protection celebrated at Te Tapuwae o Rongokako in Tairawhiti
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    2 days ago
  • Food industry asked to step up fight against obesity
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Modern emergency care for Queenstown area
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  • Contraception important for New Zealanders
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  • NZ medical staff and measles vaccines going to Samoa
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Disability Action Plan 2019 – 2023
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    4 days ago
  • Joint Statement – Third Singapore-New Zealand Defence Ministers’ Meeting
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    4 days ago
  • Sexual Violence Legislation Bill has its first reading
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  • Streamlined business invoicing a step closer
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    4 days ago
  • More frontline biosecurity officers protecting NZ
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    4 days ago
  • NZ space economy worth $1.69 billion
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    4 days ago
  • New Chair for Royal Commission into Abuse
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    4 days ago
  • Better mental health facilities for Palmerston North
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    4 days ago
  • Bowel Screening hits halfway point
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    5 days ago
  • More vaccines for meningococcal disease
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    5 days ago
  • Fisheries innovation projects supported
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    5 days ago
  • Government fixes culturally arranged marriage visa issue
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    5 days ago
  • Extension for Royal Commission into Mosque attacks
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    5 days ago
  • Terrorism and Trade on agenda as Foreign Minister visits the United States
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    5 days ago
  • Hoiho get extra support alongside 168 community conservation groups backing nature
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  • New safety measures for modified pistols
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Minister of Defence to visit Singapore and Thailand
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    6 days ago
  • Future secured for Salisbury School
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Resource management reform options released
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Criminal Cases Review Commission established
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    6 days ago
  • Racing Industry destined to be on-track
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • New Zealand firefighter support to Queensland
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    6 days ago
  • Supporting all schools to succeed
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    6 days ago
  • Reform to support better outcomes for Māori learners and whānau
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    6 days ago
  • Infrastructure pipeline growing
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    7 days ago
  • Tighter firearms law to further improve safety
    Tougher gun laws designed to improve public safety through firearms prohibition orders are proposed in a new document released for public input. Police Minister Stuart Nash says firearms prohibition orders (FPOs) would give new powers to Police to ensure high-risk individuals come nowhere near firearms. “We have already prohibited the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • New TVNZ chair & directors confirmed
    Andy Coupe has been confirmed as TVNZ’s new Board Chair. “Mr Coupe has strong commercial and capital markets experience and TVNZ has benefited from his technical knowledge of business and finance, as well as his extensive governance experience,” the Minister of Broadcasting, Communications and Digital Media Kris Faafoi said.  Andy ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Hutt Road cycle path officially opened
    Associate Minister of Transport Julie Anne Genter today officially opened a separated pathway, following the completion of the Kaiwharawhara Stream bridge, which will improve safety for cyclists and pedestrians along Hutt Road.  The $6.8m Hutt Road project provides a separated path for cycling and pedestrians, the replacement of informal parking ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Announcement of new Ambassador to Russia
    Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters today announced the appointment of career diplomat Si’alei van Toor as New Zealand’s next Ambassador to Russia. “I’m pleased to appoint Ms van Toor to this position. She brings a wealth of experience to the role having previously served as Senior Trade Adviser to the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago