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6:00 am, August 14th, 2021 - 67 comments
Categories: open mike -
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The server will be getting hardware changes this evening starting at 10pm NZDT.
The site will be off line for some hours.
Looking forward to getting back into the air when the borders open?
You might be in for a rough ride.
Have you considered tele-commuting?
https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/the-forever-project/hot-air-sucks-animation-video/
A single plastic bag took out nearly half the operating theatres? Maybe a rubbish sack? You don't see many plastic bags around these days – though I guess synthetic thread fabric is common enough. I suspect the false economy of delaying maintenance may have played its part in creating this expensive mess. Not the first time it has rained inside the old Dunedin hospital anyway.
https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/surgeries-cancelled-due-flooding
And gutter guard mesh costs $5-6 for 8 metres!
"For the want of a nail…."
Who remembers the classic Footrot Flats cartoon with the dog asking guess where Wal is during the first rain of the season or words to that effect? Behind him is a drenched Wal on a ladder cleaning an overflowing gutter of leaves.
Yep, the old; "she'll be right" kiwi attitude, doesn't mix too well with sterile operating theaters.
The SDHB is both underfunded and underfunding. Which ends up costing more; money, in the long term, and; human suffering, in the short.
John Pilger again proving why he will be remembered as one of the foremost journalist of our life time…unbelievably MSM media journalists have become so captured in this prevailing moment of 'manufacturing consent' in media that they intentionally ignore this symbolic public torture..fucking cowards..guess Pilger was right on the mark when he saw right through Kim Hill's bullshit liberal facade all those years ago and recognized her as nothing more than the defender of the status quo she is…..
JOHN PILGER: A Day in the Death of British Justice
"There is more: WikiLeaks disclosed the U.S. campaign to suppress wages in sweatshop countries like Haiti, India’s campaign of torture in Kashmir, the British government’s secret agreement to shield “U.S. interests” in its official Iraq inquiry and the British Foreign Office’s plan to create a fake “marine protection zone” in the Indian Ocean to cheat the Chagos islanders out of their right of return.
In other words, WikiLeaks has given us real news about those who govern us and take us to war, not the preordained, repetitive spin that fills newspapers and television screens. This is real journalism; and for the crime of real journalism, Assange has spent most of the past decade in one form of incarceration or another, including Belmarsh prison, a horrific place."
https://consortiumnews.com/2021/08/12/john-pilger-a-day-in-the-death-of-british-justice/
John Pilger dismantling Kim Hill…..
That interview that you and some others here love mentioning so much was in 2003.
Some people are truly stuck in the past and let the past define them in ways that lock in the past and block progressive change.
But did you read the consortium article? Because that's what happening now.
So perhaps you could.
And if I could not, I’m a “defender of the status quo”, or an “imperialist”, or something else altogether? Please let me know what label I should don so that I can make up my mind before I click on the link and lose a few minutes of my life that I will never get back.
Anyway, back to work now.
As a case study in histrionic propaganda, it's of mild interest. If you're into that kinda thing.
As for providing any new facts or insight, not so much. Finding those few little tidbits that might be relevant is kind of a 'where's Waldo' exercise. Which ends up kinda pointless given the certainty that Pilger will be presenting a wildly distorted one-eyed view of the situation.
"And if I could not, I’m a “defender of the status quo” …."
Good grief.
The point of reading the article is to inform you. If you choose not to, I couldn't care less.
Look, Brigid, in case you didn’t get my comment(s) in this thread, I was commenting on the ‘style’, not the ‘substance’. In my view, Adrian’s comment was not about engaging in a discussion. His prejudice was dripping off his comment, as usual, with the undertones of an aggressive and hostile attitude towards a few other commenters here. We’ve all seen it here before, which is why Adrian and I butt heads regularly and why I put (his pet) words in the Auto-Moderation filter that trigger shit fights.
His comment @ 3 was not inviting in the slightest; it was polarising, and I think he either can’t help himself because he’s stuck in a pattern or it is deliberate or a bit of both.
Perhaps I should not have used my reply to you as a way to communicate to and about Adrian and I apologise for that because you seem genuinely interested in conversation on the ‘substance’ of his comment. My bad.
HTH and have a nice day.
Sadly, Kim Hill doesn't seem to have learned a lot from that encounter with John Pilger. There are many more recent examples of her engaging in and/or providing an uncritical forum for vicious and cynical attacks on progressive activists and political dissidents. In 2013 she let Alex Gibney pour rhetorical filth on Julian Assange [1] and in 2019 she allowed Simon Schama to unleash an equally spurious attack on Jeremy Corbyn. [2]
To be fair, she does occasionally display some intellectual courage and moral awareness, such as when she confronted the neoconservative war enthusiast William Shawcross in 2004. [3] She also drove one Jeffrey Archer into a paroxysm of fury on air one memorable afternoon in 1994.
[1] https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-13072013/#comment-662336
[2] https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-06-07-2019/#comment-1634687
[3] https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01082011/#comment-359152
Morrissey, my contraire confrere! Oh, how I missed you, but I had an inkling you’d appear here today; the trigger words must have set off the red alarm.
I think dogmatic lefties and intellectual snobs alike, they have better things to do than losing their rag over an ancient interview between a woman and a man about another man and a woman (or was it another man?). For example, where was your outrage about moving Churchill’s portrait?
Life is too short to hold on to the past and your grudges unless you’re Chris Trotter, of course, but he’s a ‘political historian’.
Work calls, again.
Nice to see you again, mon ami.
You misunderstand.
That interview was such a glorious victory in the struggle to smash the establishment that its memory shall be revered forever as a shining inspiration to all true lefties. Viva la revolucion!
Or something.
Ah, I see. Unfortunately, I’m prone to misunderstanding because I’m obviously not a ‘true lefty’, as I don’t go into full beast-mode at the slightest discursion from ‘the manifest’.
@ Incognito. So when has Kim Hill had on anyone defending or even seriously discussing the Assange case in the past couple of years?, infact as far as I can see RNZ has had only two guests over the past three years to talk about Assange specifically.. Kim Hill and RNZ undermine serious "progressive change" in exactly the same way as the Guardian does….the only change that gets regular coverage on RNZ are the changes in the stock market, that they report on half a dozen times a day!
Hmmm, a slightly better comment than the one that was visible in the front-end for 6’52’’ before you trashed it
I’m not losing any sleep over the things that seem to bother others no end. We all pick our favourite battles, don’t we? That said, I do see an analogy, at least one, between moving a portrait of Churchill and the reporting by RNZ and Kim Hill on Assange.
What the fuck is up with you commenting on the contents of my comment before the ten minutes ‘editing’ time is up?
"I do see an analogy, at least one, between moving a portrait of Churchill and the reporting by RNZ and Kim Hill on Assange"…I don't.
Defending Assange takes moral and ethical courage of the type Kim Hill and RNZ have not displayed for so long I sometimes wonder if it was ever present?
Getting on the Churchill train does not…just some low hanging fruit of the type that suits RNZ liberal sensibilities perfectly.
Twice in two days you put up a comment that was visible to others before you edited/trashed it. I can give you a personal message that I think your edit was an improvement and you know why. Other than that, I did not comment on the actual contents of your trashed comment. So, please spare me your false accusations and stop playing the poor victim. BTW, somebody else also commented on your second edited/changed comment, which you also improved by your edit. Perhaps you’re as smart as I think you are.
You don’t see an analogy, yet you do!?
I'm with you. There is a limit to how far supposedly good journalists will stray from acceptable norms. Hill's limit was exposed in the Pilger interview, and is repeated in regards to Assange.
It's worthwhile to acknowledge that.
That misses out the bits where he really ripped into Kim Hill. Pilger is a hero but so is Hill….on this very rare occasion she didn't handle it very well.
Yes, that was my impression – I thought they'd have hit it off.
Agreed
Stewing in hate and wallowing in his own blackpilled misery with a social life revolving around howling into social media. The only thing missing is the manifesto.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/300382597/very-young-girl-among-five-victims-of-britains-first-mass-shooting-in-more-than-a-decade
And the profile was so obvious. Clearly not a victim, just an entitled shit.
This about Black Pill Incels in relation to the killer was horribly fascinating. Though, given that they are not interested in any kind of relationship beyond emotionless rutting; Involuntarily Chaste seems a better description than; I Celibate, because they are not looking for marriage anyway.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/13/plymouth-shootings-may-be-a-sign-the-incel-culture-is-spreading
An ordinary, self entitled young man unable to deal with the boredom and disappointments that are part and parcel of being an ordinary young man.
The joys of an affluent, comfortable society./
The world is full of arseholes and most of them can be found in groups lecturing others on what to do. Scott Guthrie, bankrupted many times, self appointed serial justice campaigner, actually anywhere he can get his hands on dopey buggers donations and funnel them towards himself just excelled at stitching up Christine Rankin,was, and I love this, a stalwart of the Sensible Sentencing Trust. Ha fucking ha!
Its all in the Press this morning, sorry can’t do links because of IT stupidity.
Here we go
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/126062061/selfstyled-justice-advocate-bankrupted-twice-now-sacked-twice
This is from Stuff, who I think still do the Press – so it's probably the same as the print version.
https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/126062061/selfstyled-justice-advocate-bankrupted-twice-now-sacked-twice
Yeah, that Guthrie sounds like a right conman. Though it is hard to detect a deceiver who believes their own deceit – is it even lying then? Still certainly manipulative and destructive to workplace cohesion, and corrosive to trust.
{Edit – snap DBB}
Another angle to vaccine hesitancy?
The writer makes the case that sexism plays a role in the evaluation and trials of medications in general.
Thanks francesca, an excellent long form piece that collates six months of commentary on this particular side effect of the covid jabs.
I have been following how MSM has been reporting on this issue for months and the responses from the experts are so similar you'd be forgiven for thinking they were following a common script.
A widely quoted male gynecologist told the BBC that there was “no evidence to suggest that COVID-19 vaccines will affect fertility.” Alan Copperman, MD, of the Mt. Sinai Department of Obstetrics, Gynecology, and Reproductive Science, claims “the evidence shows that the vaccines will not affect anyone’s fertility.” Just yesterday, from the Boston Globe, we are told there is “conclusive evidence that the vaccine has no negative impacts on reproduction.”
One wonders who they are trying to convince.
But, here’s what is confusing. The menstrual cycle – and please, someone do correct me if I’m wrong – is a fertility cycle, consisting of a follicular phase, the ovulation phase, the luteal phase, and then the passing of the menses itself. If a woman accepts a Covid-19 vaccine and begins to suddenly and hemorrhagically bleed, for weeks or months or end, this by no means necessarily suggests she is permanently sterilized, but nevertheless indicates her cycle has been thrown off track, which is a fertility-related side effect – one which is particularly salient to a woman trying to conceive.
And yes, basic biology…you'd think it would trump all the dismissive pontifications of the experts clearly spouting rubbish.
But no, Ms Parenti will most likely find herself on some FactcheckersRus shit list for daring to do such a deep dive into an issue that could affect near fifty percent of vaccine recipients.
And they wonder why vaccine hesitancy is an actual thing.
(Surprise fact from the article….about one third of all American women will undergo fertility treatment at some point.)
There are two ways to think about this pandemic – from the science perspective that in principle should embrace scrutiny, challenge and alternative hypothesis, OR from the public health perspective that is all about getting us to do the same thing.
One is about seeking the truth even when the path takes us through confusion and misinformation – the other is about the noble lie told in the interests holding our society together in a common purpose. These two motives could not be more different yet they're constantly muddled, conflated and are often in conflict with each other.
In an ideal world each would find a way to complement each other, each playing a role in evolving more intelligent and effective responses to this pandemic – yet here we are still taking sides when te virus doesn't care.
Not sure about the principle of embracing alternative hypotheses. My "science perspective" is that scientific hypotheses should be testable, so I could embrace the testing of alternative hypotheses (educated guesses) in as far as that is possible.
Existing data, however, strongly support the hypothesis that the benefits of the better Covid-19 vaccines to human life and limb greatly outweigh the risks.
To those who don't believe that the benefits of being vaccinated against Covid-19 outweigh the risks, and would prefer to be protected by their untrained immune system if/when the Delta variant arrives on our shores – I respect your right to choose and wish you, your whānau and friends the very best of luck.
Australian Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation (ATAGI) weekly COVID-19 meeting on 11 August 2021 update
Do the Benefits of COVID Vaccine Outweigh the Risks? [9 minute watch]
Given that I've already had my first AZ shot two weeks ago – I'm at a loss to understand your reply.
Glad you've had your first AZ jab – some of my best friends are vaccinated.
I'm at a loss to understand what you don't understand about my reply, which was an attempt to provide evidence (or, as mauī calls it, "propaganda") consistent with expert consensus hypotheses about the benefits and risks of vaccination against Covid-19.
I chose to focus on evidence because, as you know and as evinced by some of the replies below, there are many alternative hypotheses about Covid-19, vaccines and vaccination floating around, including that:
I embrace" expert consensus hypotheses (which are continually tested and, when necessary, revised) because imo they point the way forward more often than not. I'm less interested in false hopes ("fully vaccinated"), conspiracy theories ("transparency"), and promoting the odd "alternative hypothesis".
You've missed the point that there is no evidence that menstruation is affected by the MRNA jab because no studies have yet been done
That is not disinformation , in fact all those who cried down womens reports of menstrual disruption , saying that the evidence was that the Mrna jab has no effect on fertility, were guilty themselves of misinformation
Finally the CDC in the US is taking this seriously, and hopefully menstrual disruption will appear as one of the side effects so that younger women can make informed choices(perhaps delaying IV therapy until some time after the jab)
I hope you are not trying to characterise the link I provided as misinformation , that should be reported .If you had bothered to read the link you would have seen that she is no anti vaxxer.
When young women's concerns are so cavalierly brushed aside it's no wonder that trust is lost and vaccine hesitancy becomes a thing
Mind if you don't ask for it you wont know either and i guess that is the issue if the male body is the default body on which such things are 'studied'.
But then, men a women now, so i guess biology does not matter, or matters even less then before so we are all good.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/08/09/1024190379/covid-vaccine-period-menstrual-cycle-research
disclaimer, i am fully vaccinated and i am past menstruating. 🙂
I realise this might be inconvenient to your narrative but you seem misinformed: https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-14-08-2021/#comment-1808944.
What CARM does is not in any way shape or form a "study". (Not what we have come to expect a "study" to comprise of. )
There are no studies…and it is very weird that this was not something that was specifically monitored in the initial Pfizer trials.
Even weirder that despite thousands of women reporting significant menstrual issues there has been no studies published.
Tardy, to say the least.
Nope. It is unethical to raise false flags until there is sufficient evidence that it is justified and then warranted. As the data mountain grows and experts have time to analyse all the data into meaningful and actionable information it may or may not become clear whether this constitutes a possible safety signal. However, some small studies may commence that are unlikely to provide conclusive results and more likely to fan the fire of doubt, fear, and hesitancy for the simple fact that it has not been a major blip on the radar until now, after billions of vaccine doses worldwide.
Where the US goes we go , and the CDC has finally started to take womens concerns seriously
Hopefully menstrual disruption will make it on to the list of side effects
FIFY
I hope it doesn’t.
"Bushed aside" like this?
Apologies francesca, I get antsy when critiques of the vaccine rollout include "transparency", as some might take it to imply a cover-up .
I agree that it's important to maintain public trust in the Covid-19 vaccine rollout, and that will require more impartial studies on vaccine and vaccination side effects, including side effects in various groups that were excluded (for precautionary reasons) during vaccine trials.
Imho it would be foolhardy for public health services to brush aside any potential negative health side effects of a global vaccination effort (4.66 billion doses so far). If we can agree that there has been no conspiracy to cover up possible side effects of the vaccine, then great.
I found this recent (balanced) article (by Stelin Paul) on the issue helpful.
From the Stelin Paul article…
Side effects on menstrual cycle
Even though there has been no concrete study conducted on this,
I don't know how many times this has to be said.
There has been no concrete study into the effect on women's menstrual cycles from the Covid vaccines. None.
So please…. produce an actual specific study into this or concede that these women reporting these symptoms should be taken seriously.
Because it just looks plain fucking dodgy ( and very possibly yet another example of the rise and rise of misogyny) that there has been no concrete study.
Thats what I'm coming round to Rosemary
Good old fashioned sexism that's inclined to trivialise women's concerns as hysteria
The current state without the emotive hype that we come across on this site: https://www.technologynetworks.com/biopharma/articles/the-global-pandemic-and-menstrual-cycles-what-do-we-know-351436
@Incognito
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-14-08-2021/#comment-1809098
The current state without the emotive hype that we come across on this site: https://www.technologynetworks.com/biopharma/articles/the-global-pandemic-and-menstrual-cycles-what-do-we-know-351436
Even the article you referenced, the one based on research findings that are yet to be peer-reviewed , agrees that there have been no major studies on either Te Virus or the vaccines that has studied the effects on women's menstrual cycles.
As for 'emotive hype'… yet more "Good old fashioned sexism that's inclined to trivialise women's concerns as hysteria".
You should be ashamed of yourself.
Oh, get lost!
Of course, the article agrees, that was my point of linking to it!!
You’re are so antagonistic here – is that a better word for your constant tedious negative emotive commentary here? – that you cannot tell the difference between friend or foe.
@Rosemary (4:58 pm): Yes, a helpful article imho.
Happy to "concede that these women reporting these symptoms should be taken seriously" – why you seem to think I believe otherwise is a mystery.
Similarly, I don't understand why you believe that the lack of a "concrete study" is evidence of something "plain fucking dodgy".
I'm disappointed at the monotonous negativity you dump on the public heath system and health experts, and have as much respect for your opinions on these matters as you have for mine.
The CDC response has been tardy, but hopefully they will study the VAERS data( which will be skewed by under reporting) address the concerns and add to the list of side effects so that young women can be prepared
Your first link is a letter to the BMJ, not a study
Your second link says there is no hard data …still no studies
the third says could be short lived
None of these are studies
"Significantly, in June, the National Institute of Health (NIH) announced it would spend around $1 million to support three to four studies looking into the potential link between Covid vaccines and menstruation disruption. A call for proposals was issued, but so far, no awards have been granted. Consequently, no research has commenced, much less concluded with helpful insights.
I'm not talking about coverups, I'm talking about real studies addressing young women's concerns
If women are not listened to they lose trust and become vulnerable to misinformation
That was for Drowsy
Another balanced article (imho), this one looking at the possibility of cause-and-effect between Covid vaccinations and menstrual changes, and how to study same. Hopefully health experts can design studies and learn from these once the pandemic is better controlled.
In the absence of (instant) answers, I believe that the benefits of being vaccinated against Covid-19 outweigh the risks, but that's just me – who/what to trust is a personal choice.
We will in short months be in a largely or fully vaccinated percentage population.
Our policy argument is no longer about vaccination but about protecting the vulnerable from more outbreaks, mitigating its damage, and mashing that effort with the broader public health programmes that we already have.
Like life pre-covid, we will give all of ourselves better outcomes if we are well connected with people, exercise a lot, are overall healthy, don't smoke, aren't in an isolated community nowhere from healthcare, don't have other major morbidity risks, and act quickly when we do fall ill.
Thank you for saying this out loud. The logical consequence of co-morbidities featuring so highly as a risk factor has been largely left out of the public narrative.
In principle one of the most potentially effective tools against COVID – improving the overall health of the entire population – has been left lying on the table untouched.
The faster the Ministry of Health and all those stupid District Health Boards have the load of COVID vaccinations and border controls lifted off them, the better off we will all be.
MoH have not covered themselves in glory here.
Government have been given consistent advice that MoH weren't up to it and it needed a separate dedicated agency.
Drowsy M K
Be good sweet maid and let those who will be clever
Informed consent relies on full information and transparency
To me your comment displays a mixture of propaganda and fear.
It would be nice to know for example how this "untrained immune system" you speak of has managed to protect millions of children under the age of 18 in the UK over the past year, with an estimated death rate of only 0.000002%
"Covid: Children's extremely low risk confirmed by study" https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57766717
An annual "death rate of only 0.000002%" for under-18s in the UK is fanciful, since that's a death rate of 1 per 50 million under-18s.
In your link it's stated that there were 2 Covid-19 deaths per million ("25 children and young people have died as a result of Covid-19"), so the actual annual death rate is 100 times your estimate, i.e. 0.0002%, not "0.000002%".
Propaganda, or a simple 'miscalculation'? Who knows
Many thanks Francesca. I have been reading and hearing about this for a while now. This is a well presented look at what we know and what we don't. Again, thank you.
Medsafe is monitoring menstrual disorders after vaccination with the Pfizer vaccine as a possible safety signal.
https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-21.asp
Incognito
Why on earth would you hope menstrual disruption doesn't make it on to the list of side effects for the MRNA vaccine?
Do you have similar feelings about the other side effects listed like itch, localised soreness, headache, tiredness, rash?
Cause & effect, not merely a correlation. If it gets on the list of actually causing bad things, it is a bad thing, which is not a good thing for a vaccine in a pandemic. In other words, I hope (!) the vaccines are as safe as realistically possible and as effective as realistically possible. But it is what it is and time will tell.
I would always prefer to be armed with information , no matter how "bad" those "bad things" may be
All drugs have "bad" side effects, with varying degrees of severity, not much point denying it
No quibble with that, as long as the information is correct and accurate, correctly interpreted, and not extrapolated and taken out of context. There are too many self-taught
dilettantes‘experts’ out there who twist and turn facts into ignorant word salads with an emotive dressing. They should be ashamed of themselves.