Open mike 14/08/2023

66 comments on “Open mike 14/08/2023 ”

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1. pat 1

   14 August 2023 at 7:46 am

   "Labour thinks Hipkins comes off as an every-man, with his endless references to "bread and butter issues" (including two on Sunday). But when he's so obviously making calls based on focus group, he looks like any other cynical career politician."

   https://www.newsroom.co.nz/labour-looks-to-govern-by-focus-group
   • mikesh 1.1

     14 August 2023 at 8:21 am

     But when he's so obviously making calls based on focus group, he looks like any other cynical career politician."

     Now who's being cynical? Mark Daalder no less.
   • Corey 1.2

     14 August 2023 at 6:29 pm

     Labour clearly needs better advisors, pollsters and focus groups because noone thinks of Chris bloody hipkins as an everyman or a Kiwi battler lmfao.

     People cringe and roll their eyes when he says "boy from the hutt" or "bread and butter" we've seen him for months say "bread and butter" in the same sentence he's ruling out bread and butter economic policies.

     Labour are delusional. Hipkins is seen as another Goff, Shearer, Cunliffe, Little… If he was up against a stronger opposition leader, Labour would be polling at 18-23%

     I perform three times a week to diverse crowds, between uni, work art, comedy, rich and poor sides of my family, I've never heard anyone, ever say anything nice about Hipkins or Luxon.
     • pat 1.2.1

       14 August 2023 at 6:41 pm

       Id suggest that anyone who may have considered Hipkins ( and Labour) as representing Kiwi battlers will have had their delusion well and truly debunked
2. Joe90 2

   14 August 2023 at 8:05 am

   I almost admire the guy.

   
3. Dennis Frank 3

   14 August 2023 at 8:31 am

   Richard Harman was impressed. Paywalled, but in the intro he calls Labour's move real clever: https://www.politik.co.nz/labours-very-clever-class-politics/

   Poll verification awaits. He seems to see it as a marketing thing. Wedge issue. I'm not the target market so have no informed opinion – other than that it indicated a breach in the wall of neolib doctrine and can thus be interpreted as tacit socialist reversion.

   If Labour regains parity with National in the polls, Harman will be proven right. On class analysis it makes sense but few voters self-identify as lower class nowadays. During my sporadic participation onsite here since 2015 I haven't seen even one commentator do so! A cynic would conclude that lower-class folk are incapable of political thought or activism but the 19th century proves that wrong…
   • weka 3.1

     14 August 2023 at 8:53 am

     that article isn't paywalled.
     • Dennis Frank 3.1.1

       14 August 2023 at 9:06 am

       It was when I tried to read it earlier this morning. I'll re-check & quote more if I get access. No – still unavailable to me. I wonder why you can read it but I can't.

       Anyway if there's anything else he wrote that is interesting enough I hope you'll report it here…
       • weka 3.1.1.1

         14 August 2023 at 9:11 am

         they might have a limit on how many posts you can read per month. Try a different device, or browser in incognito mode and/or dump the cookies for the site.
         • Dennis Frank 3.1.1.1.1

           14 August 2023 at 7:46 pm

           thanks, I'll check out those tips when I get around to it…
       • ianmac 3.1.1.2

         14 August 2023 at 9:26 am

         Works for me. Research in the article claims this:

         They found that 80 per cent of Labour supporters thought it was a good idea and would support it while, interestingly, 59 per cent of National supporters thought the same. And what was undoubtedly particularly important was that there was 80 per cent support from weak Labour supporters, voters considering switching their vote to another party. The research showed that 45 per cent overall would be more likely to vote Labour as a consequence of the policy, and 28 per cent of current National voters would be now more likely to vote Labour.

         Continue reading at https://www.politik.co.nz/labours-very-clever-class-politics/ | Politik
         • Phillip ure 3.1.1.2.1

           14 August 2023 at 5:09 pm

           The panel on rnz just did a snap poll on this.

           69% opposed..31% supported..
   • Anne 3.2

     14 August 2023 at 9:44 am

     " … few voters self-identify as lower class nowadays."

     Class consciousness as imported from Britain is almost obsolete except among the die hard Kiwi Tories.

     There are many people struggling to make ends meet who will welcome a few extra dollars for fruit and veges regardless of their status. Add the $25 per week WFF and I'm sure the package will go down very well with them.
     • alwyn 3.2.1

       14 August 2023 at 10:07 am

       I believe that the WFF payments aren't even being considered until just before the 2026 election. Can you really get excited by something that certainly won't happen for another three years?

       When I heard that being announced I was expecting Chippie to burst into a rendition of the old Hobo song from the 1930's.

       In his dulcet tenor I could imagine him singing "There'll be pie in the sky when you die".

       By the way, can you provide an example of the "die hard Kiwi Tories." you mention? I can't think of anyone who matches the image.
       • SPC 3.2.1.1

         14 August 2023 at 10:21 am

         FACT CHECK

         Not true.

         The WFF tax credit changes have two components, it begins 1 April 2024 but a threshold adjustment does not occur until 2026.

         From 1 April 2024 a $25 a week gain. From 2026, it goes up to a $47 a week gain

         https://www.labour.org.nz/news-cost_living_working_families
         • alwyn 3.2.1.1.1

           14 August 2023 at 11:23 am

           Thank you. I didn't pick up properly on when it was going to apply apparently.
         • Phillip ure 3.2.1.1.2

           14 August 2023 at 3:54 pm

           Only three years to wait for that $47…then..

           You are happy with that..?

           And April next year for that $25 wff..

           And that's not for the poorest…the 160,000+ children of beneficiaries..

           There is absolutely nothing for them..not even in 3 yrs…

           Where do you think that all rates on the transforming-scale..?

           You really are trying to polish a turd… aren't you..?
           • SPC 3.2.1.1.2.1

             14 August 2023 at 5:00 pm

             Why do you have a problem with a clarification as to what Labour Party policy actually is?

             You then question the policy and then presume the person who wanted the facts stated, has some ulterior motive.

             Yeah, misinformation sucks. As does cheap insult, as to impugning motive.

             There is a reason why the Green Party wanted to approach politics with different manner to ….. rather than whatever it is that you are doing.
             • Phillip ure …

               14 August 2023 at 5:14 pm

               You shouldn't take things so personally..it isn't about you . .

               My fecal reference was directed at anyone saying what a wonderful policy this is..

               As I said ..it ain't about you .. it's about this dogs breakfast example of a big policy .

               At best it is just more middle class welfare..
               • SPC …

                 14 August 2023 at 5:20 pm

                 Circular reasoning, it's like watching a sheep walking within a circle.

                 Then to dumb it down, referring to lower income (working poor) families (renting) as middle class.
                 • joe90 …

                   14 August 2023 at 7:16 pm

                   a sheep walking within a circle

                   ..listeriosis…
                 • Phillip ure …

                   14 August 2023 at 7:18 pm

                   Middle class people spend more on fruit and veg…than do the poorest..

                   Therefore..they are the main beneficiaries from this chump change policy..

                   (Circular enough for you..?)
                 • SPC …

                   14 August 2023 at 7:20 pm

                   We were discussing the tax credit to the working poor with families … this is the other paddock.
       • In Vino 3.2.1.2

         14 August 2023 at 7:31 pm

         You could always try the man in the mirror, alwyn… You strike me as pretty consistent.
   • Incognito 3.3

     14 August 2023 at 4:23 pm

     I’m not the target market so have no informed opinion

     Not being the target market does not exclude [you from] having or forming an informed opinion.

     You self-ID as not paying GST on fruit & veg and not being registered as a voter in NZ.

     Despite your self-disqualification, you pretend to comment on an article that you, by your own admission, cannot and have not read!?

     Poll verification awaits.

     […]

     If Labour regains parity with National in the polls, Harman will be proven right.

     This reflects your binary & simplistic thinking about opinion polls, especially at this stage of the election campaign and close to the General Election. Moreover, it is unclear what Harman is supposed to be ‘right’ about. In other words, the next poll [?] will ‘prove’ nothing but undoubtedly, this will not stop you from making some comment about it.

     On class analysis it makes sense but few voters self-identify as lower class nowadays. During my sporadic participation onsite here since 2015 I haven’t seen even one commentator do so! A cynic would conclude that lower-class folk are incapable of political thought or activism but the 19th century proves that wrong…

     Again, you admit your big blanks and yet you continue to fill them with sophistry.

     And on and on it goes …
   • weka 3.4

     14 August 2023 at 5:43 pm

     … On class analysis it makes sense but few voters self-identify as lower class nowadays. During my sporadic participation onsite here since 2015 I haven't seen even one commentator do so! A cynic would conclude that lower-class folk are incapable of political thought or activism but the 19th century proves that wrong…

     I don't think I've seen anyone on TS say they are lower class. I've seen plenty here who are working class, historically and currently. We’ve also had working class authors.

     Your statement above is both ignorant of working class presence on TS (no, your qualifier of 'sporadic' doesn't negate the ignorance). The insinuation that working class people in our lifetime aren't politically active or don't have political analysis is bizarre.

     There are also those of us here who live in the underclass.
     • Incognito 3.4.1

       14 August 2023 at 5:59 pm

       Dennis twisted Harman’s words or simply filled in the blanks (given that he had not read the actual piece) to create a strawman of his own.

       Harman wrote:

       Never mind; Labour will now try to define National’s tax cuts as unaffordable perks for the wealthy while it plays old-fashioned class politics as it compares its attention to its working-class base with National’s nod to the people Michael Cullen called” rich pricks”. [my italics]

       I’ve seen plenty of commenters here identifying as working-class or from a strong working-class background. However, this would not have suited DF’s narrative; he prefers to manufacture stuff and then make snide & arrogant remarks.
       • weka 3.4.1.1

         14 August 2023 at 7:01 pm

         it's disappointing to see Dennis' change in commenting and it sinking to this level.
         • Dennis Frank 3.4.1.1.1

           14 August 2023 at 7:41 pm

           I'm intrigued that you're both reading stuff into what I wrote that wasn't my intended meaning but so it goes…

           For the record, I emerged into a slot in the social hierarchy that, when I first learnt about it, was defined as lower middle class. Being just a kid, I had no idea what that meant but eventually got the right idea in synch with everyone older. The culture here at the time was imperial (although a purist may prefer post-imperial) although neo-colonial frames it better nowadays.

           What it meant in practice for identity formation: my parents brought me up to believe our family couldn't afford some of the good things of life that others boys my age had. They got to see those famous Cecil B DeMille movies in cinemas downtown that I couldn't see due to being too poor.

           That gives me an experiential basis upon which to empathise with folks today who can't afford some of the good things of life. Intellectual folks can still call this class consciousness despite the archaic aura the notion evokes in some…
           • weka 3.4.1.1.1.1

             14 August 2023 at 8:43 pm

             I'm intrigued that you're both reading stuff into what I wrote that wasn't my intended meaning but so it goes…

             Or you could clarify.
4. Dennis Frank 4

   14 August 2023 at 8:50 am

   Our local mayor takes a nationwide view of infrastructure policy:

   The data from Waka Kotahi is stark – our national road network is deteriorating, and the government has resorted to borrowing to fund even routine state highway and local road maintenance.

   It's a paradoxical situation where substantial financial commitments are being made without transparent funding strategies. This situation is a symptom of a broken funding model that successive governments have failed to address.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/300947549/billion-dollar-roading-schemes-the-election-and-the-lack-of-a-long-term-blueprint-for-new-zealands-infrastructure

   I haven't hitherto been impressed by this guy but must give him credit for specifying Nat/Lab collusion in creating our infrastructure crisis via short-term fixes. Except climate change has precipitated the crisis so folks will blame that instead.

   As a result we’ve experienced years of inadequate maintenance funding, suboptimal processes, and problematic contractor arrangements. The outcome is a national network where large sections of highway have passed the end of their intended lifespan, and the average remaining useful life across the entire network is less than two years.

   Where is the integrated long-term blueprint for New Zealand's development to 2050 and beyond?

   In the ether. Would you expect either National or Labour to pluck it out of the ether and articulate it into prospective legislation? Of course not. Mainstream idiocy rules.

   However this conservative mayor has the right idea, and even paralyitic Nats & Labs can transcend their navel-gazing. It could catch on. Some political activist needs to lead from the front and declare a movement for resilient governance in Aotearoa. Even the Greens could do it – would give them credibility as progressives. He closes with the essential collaborative intergenerational pitch:

   It's time for New Zealand to embrace an integrated, long-term vision that transcends party lines and election cycles. Joining the dots between transport, energy, economy and emissions planning would pave the way for a more robust and sustainable future planning framework.

   Applying good asset management principles and encouraging cross-party collaboration on key issues offers the potential to deliver more efficient and predictable economic outcomes, ensuring that the promises made today are fulfilled responsibly for the benefit of future generations regardless of short term electoral outcomes.
   • ianmac 4.1

     14 August 2023 at 9:35 am

     The weather events last year made a real mess of our roads in the Sounds. The contractors have made a great job of keeping the roads open. Specially impressed with the stretches of hot-mix patching. Only the colour change shows where the seamless joins are made.
   • AB 4.2

     14 August 2023 at 9:49 am

     Your Mayor sounds like a species of 'Pothole Man' – his delusions are just of a more quotidian nature. Rather than just announcing fancy new stuff, he wants to see that most mystical of things – an "integrated plan" – that also says something about maintaining existing infrastructure. He is right to the extent that most of the fancy new stuff will never be built, because what we have already will be continuously wrecked by climate change and there will be 'no money' for anything else but trying to fix it. But eventually there will be 'no money' for fixing existing stuff either.
5. Herodotus 5

   14 August 2023 at 9:00 am

   Diesel almost $2.30/l and 91 at $3/l and gst adjustment on April fools day next year is what is being offered to assist in this economic crisis that we all households face 🤮if that is as good as it is to gets to be “in it for you” labour has no idea what is happening outside the beltway that they operate within.
   • weka 5.1

     14 August 2023 at 9:12 am

     I suspect it's more to do with the way they see limits on the budget (ie they don't have any money either) as well as a a conservative positioning on how to win and election.
   • Visubversa 5.2

     14 August 2023 at 12:03 pm

     91 is $2.82 at Pak'n'Save Mt Albert this morning.
     • joe90 5.2.1

       14 August 2023 at 12:24 pm

       91 was $2.61 @ Waitomo Fuel in Bulls this AM.
       • Sanctuary 5.2.1.1

         14 August 2023 at 3:46 pm

         A full charge of a BYD Atto4 BEV costs $17 and gives 440km and some change real world range.
   • SPC 5.3

     14 August 2023 at 12:29 pm

     It's well known that petrol costs get higher the further south, from the northern ports/sans refinery.
     • Herodotus 5.3.1

       14 August 2023 at 12:52 pm

       From Gaspy Z Silverdale $3.06.90 and $3.03.90 BP connect Silverdale. Those outside Auckland may have forgotten the Regional Fuel tax + GST. and these costs are current that we have to incur the costs TODAY, not wait almost 8 months for any respite from the F&V announcement.

       https://www.transport.govt.nz/area-of-interest/revenue/regional-fuel-tax/#:~:text=Regional%20fuel%20tax%20comes%20into,2018%20until%2030%20June%202028.
       • SPC 5.3.1.1

         14 August 2023 at 1:13 pm

         Has National said they would end the 10 cent regional tax (2018-2028)?

         National has no plan to manage inflation, apart from getting rid of the FPA and bringing in even more migrant workers, and be parsimonious on MW increases – all so less reward from economic profit is shared with labour). And also hold down pay levels for state sector workers (as they did 2008-2017) so there is no protection from their policy via tax paid jobs.

         Otherwise it's just taking employment factors out the RB orbit, so there are higher levels of unemployment.
     • KJT 5.3.2

       14 August 2023 at 3:52 pm

       On the contrary. I live in Northland and travel to Auckland often.

       Fuel prices are cheaper in Auckland so often, that we normally top up in Auckland.
       • SPC 5.3.2.1

         14 August 2023 at 4:50 pm

         The northern ports – WR/AK/TG ….
6. PsyclingLeft.Always 6

   14 August 2023 at 9:20 am

   Possibly, I would notice Environment pieces on the TV News more..but IMO, there does seem to have been more lately….thought provoking, and even providing some well thought solutions, Newshub.

   "We have a major flood event in New Zealand every eight months and it's costing us absolutely billions of dollars," said report author Kali Mercier.

   "So turning them into giant sponges essentially. We've been losing green space in New Zealand so we're becoming less absorbent over time."

   That's because of our impermeable tarmac roads, iron roofs, and concrete footpaths.

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2023/08/sponge-city-urban-design-needed-to-help-new-zealand-survive-climate-change-induced-increased-rainfall-experts.html
   • ianmac 6.1

     14 August 2023 at 9:38 am

     Of the 6 3-bedroom houses in our patch, 4 have no lawn. Easy care but where does the rain go?
     • KJT 6.1.1

       14 August 2023 at 9:56 am

       Unfortunately, with the 50mm of topsoil over clay almost universal in NZ housing developments, the ability of grassed areas to drain rainfall is not much better than concrete.
     • PsyclingLeft.Always 6.1.2

       14 August 2023 at 1:45 pm

       Hi, not sure what part NZ you are. Some areas much more rain than others. If thats the case..probably just goes stormwater. With all the attendant problems. Including ageing/inadequate pipes/infrastructure.

       Buildings, streets and car parks are all impermeable surfaces. When it rains, the water rushes off these surfaces and into gutters. From the gutters, the water drains into a stormwater catch basin, through the stormwater network, and into streams and the sea.

       Herein lies the problem. The more we build, the more stormwater we need to drain. Every new building or road replaces the planet’s natural stormwater system: plants and soil, and channels for runoff.

       https://thespinoff.co.nz/science/31-01-2023/stormwater-reform-wont-be-enough-we-need-a-sponge-city-to-avoid-future-disasters

       Where I see the Sponge City has great merit. Much better (and more cost effective? ) to incorporate small wetland areas /gardens than majorly replacing old pipes.

       As in other link i also very much liked that

       The benefits extend beyond flood protection.

       "There's more water and more green space and that has a cooling effect on our urban areas. Also bringing in biodiversity, and that's really important," Logan said.

       https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2023/08/sponge-city-urban-design-needed-to-help-new-zealand-survive-climate-change-induced-increased-rainfall-experts.html

       It is all possible. We just need to do it. Would be great : )
7. Shanreagh 7

   14 August 2023 at 10:28 am

   No links here I note…. an opinion with no supporting data.

   I think incrementalism is best used where it is best used…….no need to throw the baby out with the bath water.

   Clearly there are times when a steady hand is needed and times when it is not the best approach.

   The key is knowing which approach is best. For that we need people who don't have a fixed view 'incrementalism bad' but one that allows consideration of all the options

   [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
   
   • weka 7.1

     14 August 2023 at 11:38 am

     No links here I note…. an opinion with no supporting data.

     The problem with both being a dick and having a go when you apparently don't understand moderation or kaupapa here, and doing that to someone who is also a moderator, is that you remind them of your own outstanding moderation that you haven't replied to.

     To refresh your memory:

     1. there is nothing wrong with expressing opinions here and not every opinion needs supporting data.

     2. I spend a great deal of time in posts and comments explaining my thinking and providing supporting data

     3. please now attend to this moderation. You're in premod until you do.
     • weka 7.1.1

       14 August 2023 at 11:43 am

       .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-09-08-2023/#comment-1964285
8. Obtrectator 8

   14 August 2023 at 12:01 pm

   Remind you of anything? Around 2014 for instance?

   https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/aug/13/marion-county-record-co-owner-joan-meyer-dies-kansas-police-raid
9. alwyn 9

   14 August 2023 at 12:09 pm

   Oh dear. It didn't take very long for another Labour Party mistake to surface did it?

   Was it Robertson or Hipkins who did the costing on their GST proposal and like so often they stuffed it up? Still, what's a quarter of a billion mistake between friends?

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/labour-forced-to-fix-gst-policy-after-240m-hole-found/3SGFFXMX4ZD4LFDZX2RSF47JX4/
   • SPC 9.1

     14 August 2023 at 12:25 pm

     1 April 2024 – 1 July 2024 not covered. Then, 1 July 2024 – 31 March 2025 1 July 2025 – 31 March 2026, rather than full years?

     What sort of Machiavellian genius would do this? Someone who has ideas for raising revenue to cover this and more? Not all of them publicly ruled out … yet…

     (Seymour $30B hole and Peters $20B hole have larger differences to overcome)
     • Louis 9.1.1

       14 August 2023 at 12:55 pm

       From the link posted @9 "Labour said it was only included in the first version of the policy document, which was sent to media before the announcement. It was not in the material that was released publicly after. The error was fixed on Sunday before that announcement, but not all media were advised of it.

       “The correct cost of the GST policy has always been accounted for in our fiscals and was discussed in the media conference yesterday,” a spokesperson said.

       “References to ‘holes’ or ‘uncosted’ by the Opposition are false.”
       • SPC 9.1.1.1

         14 August 2023 at 1:21 pm

         Sure. But even if one sticks to the mundane side of it, why send the wrong (exposing the original error) policy document to media before the release?
         • Louis 9.1.1.1.1

           14 August 2023 at 1:31 pm

           The explanation is in the quote.
           • SPC 9.1.1.1.1.1

             14 August 2023 at 1:37 pm

             No it aint. There is no explanation given for why the wrong document was sent out to media. Staff error, or deliberate exposure (of an earlier miscalculation in a policy document)?
             • Louis …

               14 August 2023 at 2:39 pm

               'it was only included in the first version of the policy document, which was sent to media before the announcement. It was not in the material that was released publicly after. The error was fixed on Sunday before that announcement, but not all media were advised of it'
   • Louis 9.2

     14 August 2023 at 12:52 pm

     "Labour said it was only included in the first version of the policy document, which was sent to media before the announcement. It was not in the material that was released publicly after. The error was fixed on Sunday before that announcement, but not all media were advised of it.

     “The correct cost of the GST policy has always been accounted for in our fiscals and was discussed in the media conference yesterday,” a spokesperson said.

     “References to ‘holes’ or ‘uncosted’ by the Opposition are false.”
10. joe90 10

    14 August 2023 at 1:13 pm

    But Sir John's digs are undamaged.

    /

    Chris Turnbull

    @EnemyInAState

    Hawaii crisis: resident reveals the shocking truth of devastation being ignored by the media: 'There's hundreds, at least 600, if not thousands of people who are dead in the streets, floating in the ocean'

    https://twitter.com/EnemyInAState/status/1690849170314170368
    • arkie 10.1

      14 August 2023 at 1:26 pm

      
    • alwyn 10.2

      14 August 2023 at 2:23 pm

      I think that John Key's statement on the subject is a great deal better than your own.

      "Sir John Key has conveyed profound sorrow regarding the wildfires that are devastating large areas of Maui, a place where his family has owned a home for a decade and a half.

      Expressing his sentiments, Key shared, “The situation is incredibly disheartening, as our hearts go out to the island’s inhabitants. The scale of destruction and loss of life is heart-wrenching, and the impact on people’s livelihoods is truly distressing,” as he spoke to Stuff.".

      Do you really feel that this tragedy is suitable only for your bitter comments?

      https://www.propertynoise.co.nz/sir-john-keys-maui-home-close-to-devastating-fires/
      • joe90 10.2.1

        14 August 2023 at 2:34 pm

        It ain't bitterness, sport, it's a visceral loathing of the smarmy prick.
        • Barfly 10.2.1.1

          14 August 2023 at 8:09 pm

          
11. Ad 11

    14 August 2023 at 3:20 pm

    Big congrats to the New Zealand Over 40 team who just took out First at the World Waka Ama Champs in Samoa a few minutes ago. Shoutout to Bryce.
12. bwaghorn 12

    14 August 2023 at 4:03 pm

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/300948132/damien-grant-will-national-and-acts-strained-relationship-hurt-their-election-chances

    ""Act want to put a grenade in education and walk away

    According to grant, it'd be nice of reporters dig deep an explained exactly what this means, is privatization?

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