Open mike 14/08/2016

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 14th, 2016 - 108 comments
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108 comments on “Open mike 14/08/2016 ”

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  1. Gosman 1
    14 August 2016 at 7:47 am

    I am truly trying to understand left wing thinking when it comes to negative outcomes of left wing ideals.. I get the impression that many lefties don’t acknowledge any culpability from negative results of leftist policies.

    I post my example from yesterday again to see if someone can explain why sugar production in Venezuela has fallen so dramatically after it was nationalised in the early 2000’s. This is not just a one off event that can be explained by the effect of drought. It was a sustained declined over a period of years. Why couldn’t Venezuela keep sugar production at the levels it was when it was largely controlled privately?

    The only explanation I have been given so far is that it is related to the fall in the price in oil or sanctions imposed by the US. That doesn’t seem to make sense given that the sugar is for domestic consumption and therefore both those things would have made it more attractive to produce locally rather than import.

    http://www.latimes.com/world/mexico-americas/la-fg-venezuela-imports-20160809-snap-story.html

    • Robert Guyton 1.1
      14 August 2016 at 8:03 am

      Truly, I am. Truly.

      • Gosman 1.1.1
        14 August 2016 at 8:23 am

        I’m struggling to understand the cognitive dissonance of the left wing mind set. I can quite easily accept the negative outcomes of right wing policies.

        The elephant graph posted by Anthony Robins today is an example of that. Free trade has negative consequences for a sector of society and public policy needs to take account of that. However I have never seen any acknowledgment from left wingers that policies they support also have negative consequences.

        The situation in Venezuela is entirely predictable in terms of outcomes economically. If you reduce private sector involvement and increase public sector participation in the provision of goods and services the right wing economic viewpoint is that you retard production. This us what has happened. However I suspect accepting this self evident truth is too much more many lefties (like Draco for example). They will attempt to deflect the cause to other areas. I find that fascinating.

        • Robert Guyton 1.1.1.1
          14 August 2016 at 8:40 am

          You are fascinated by what you believe to be “left wing” thought and you struggle to understand it. As a consequence you demand that thinkers from that field explain themselves to you.
          Truly. Fascinating.

          • Gosman 1.1.1.1.1
            14 August 2016 at 8:47 am

            I challenge left wingers to explain outcomes which can be attributed directly to the ideals they expouse (i.e greater involvement of State and workers in control of production). Are you stating thus is not a key ideal of the left?

            • One Anonymous Bloke 1.1.1.1.1.1
              14 August 2016 at 9:07 am

              I challenged you to demonstrate that any of that rote-learned lazy tripe you call an argument has a basis in reality. With references, to support your assertion of “attributed directly”, for example.

              Otherwise, why should anyone answer your loaded questions, mendacity boy?

        • miravox 1.1.1.2
          14 August 2016 at 9:19 am

          *yawn* after all this time pasting TS with Venezuela and not actually gaining any understanding of political thought on this site, there’s bugger all anyone can do to enlighten you now.

          Anyways, you say Venezuela, I say Honduras. I doubt many want either extreme.

          • Gosman 1.1.1.2.1
            14 August 2016 at 9:27 am

            Do you have evidence of serious shortages in Honduras caused by free market policies? If so I will have a look.

            • miravox 1.1.1.2.1.1
              14 August 2016 at 9:35 am

              Getting specific aren’t you? Not at all interested in widespread poverty, societal breakdown and murders of environmentalists at all?

            • coffee connoissuer 1.1.1.2.1.2
              14 August 2016 at 11:06 am

              There are examples in NZ of shortages caused by free market policies. Try housing.
              See Gos the problem with the free market is that in it you only need a willing buyer and a willing seller for the free market to have the illusion of working.

              Bob Jones buys a private jet. you have just shown the free market works. But you dont see the market adjusting so everyone can have a private jet do you.
              Sure ridiculous example but it can be applied to any part and any level of society.
              You can have a Kebab shop that has 1000 customers and as such the kebab shop can stay open and in business. Yet at the same time you could have 100000 people who cannot afford a kebab.

              Shortage does not always need to relate to supply. it can relate to a persons ability to overcome the barrier of price in order to be able to obtain the desired product or service and for an individual or section of society who cant afford it there is a shortage and as such they may as well have been living in the soviet union just perior to its collapse because for them the outcome is the same.

              A good system would enable every single person to meet their essential basic needs as a bare minimum. A shit system won’t even be able to do that. The free market doesnt do that. But you go on defending your shitty system if you can’t think any bigger or broader than it.

            • In Vino 1.1.1.2.1.3
              14 August 2016 at 7:48 pm

              I suspect there is a serious shortage of proper democratic lifestyle, but your blinkered market mentality won’t recognise such a thing, will it?

              • coffee connoissuer …
                14 August 2016 at 11:12 pm

                you suspect vs taking a look at examples of the principle I outlined in pretty much every single so called first world country.
                You champion a system that is so poor it cannot provide essential basic needs for everyone.
                Your in telligent In Vino I’ll give you that but your very entrenched in the current system.

              • In Vino …
                15 August 2016 at 5:16 pm

                Coffee, I was replying to Goosey Gosman. Your well-written comment sneaked in before mine. I have no argument with what you wrote.

                • Anne …
                  15 August 2016 at 5:45 pm

                  Without being able to check the “replies” column is creating a few problems. Not complaining as such because lprent does a magnificent job but the sooner we get it back the better. 😕

                  Edit: I know we can access immediately after leaving a comment but that’s not always convenient. We all have other lives.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 1.2
      14 August 2016 at 8:15 am

      Which particular “left wing ideals” led to this particular outcome Gosman? I’m truly interested in your in-depth detailed analysis, with multiple references and an attempt to asses what bias if any they may contain, showing:

      1. That you can accurately summarise left wing ideals and,

      2. That your argument has any basis.

      Please, I’m truly, sincerely interested in “your” “opinion”.

      • Gosman 1.2.1
        14 August 2016 at 8:30 am

        Do you disagree that the State in Venezuela has encourage greater worker control and State ownership of industry and that is (or at least used to be) a key element if left wing economic theory?

        As I stated above, right wing economic thinking suggests the outcome from following such a path is usually reduced quality and/or quantity of goods and services. This is exactly what has occured in Venezuela (and lots of other countries).

        • Ad 1.2.1.1
          14 August 2016 at 8:43 am

          Gosman you’ll get better engagement if you don’t put up straw man arguments.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 1.2.1.2
          14 August 2016 at 9:02 am

          I don’t know much if anything about Venezuela, and you tell too many lies for me to take your word for it, so that’s why I asked for multiple references.

          Your dismissal of US interference, for example, indicates that you believe it had no effect on Venezuela’s economy. I don’t believe you, and you’re doing a very very shit job of persuading me or indeed, putting up any argument whatsoever.

          Apart from your habitual ad nauseam, that is.

          • Gosman 1.2.1.2.1
            14 August 2016 at 9:07 am

            I have provided numerous source on Venezuela even from a left wing perspective (Venezuelananaalysis). Are you disputing any if the facts that have been put forward such as the decline in domestic Sugar production? I would be quite willing to investigate US interference if you can explain how it is meant to impact production of goods and services within Venezuela in industries largely controlled by the State. Explain a mechanism that allows the US to influence that and I’ll look to see if that is the case.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 1.2.1.2.1.1
              14 August 2016 at 9:16 am

              You’ve provided no sources here.

              Meanwhile, in New Zealand. the right makes unemployment and homelessness. No wonder you want to talk about sugar production in a falling global market.

              • Gosman …
                14 August 2016 at 9:30 am

                I provided a link to the source. Are you disputing the source and if so why?

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  14 August 2016 at 10:35 am

                  I’m not reading your source until you meet the requirements I laid out in 1.2: write an in-depth detailed multi-referenced analysis that demonstrates why the assertions in your loaded questions are true.

                  You would certainly have to show how what happens in Venezuela relates to Green and Labour policies in New Zealand, for example.

                  Or alternatively, you can fuck off.

              • Chuck …
                14 August 2016 at 3:58 pm

                Venezuela is a basket case I think you can agree with me on that OAB.

                Hugo Chavez 2 decades of centralizing all decisions (into his hands) the state taking control of medium to large business etc etc has lead to this.

                While oil prices were high they masked the issues at hand, however once they started to fall so did Venezuela.

                Half of all oil exported today from Venezuela goes to paying back a $50 billion loan from China.

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  14 August 2016 at 5:21 pm

                  Remind me what part of “Socialism” involves one person making all the decisions. It’s sad that you just blew over your own house of cards. I suppose I can always enjoy the schadenfreude 😈

                • In Vino …
                  14 August 2016 at 5:35 pm

                  Read your second sentence (The first should have been 2 sentences..)

                  It makes no sense at all. Try to explain it in real English, please. ‘Medium’ is singular, and how does control of ‘medium’ go to large business etc etc??

                  Who are the first ‘they’ in your third mangled sentence (oil prices?), and maybe you could confirm that the second ‘they’ refers to oil prices?

                  By the way, it was USA fracking that caused oil prices to fall. But you are one of those who denies any kind of US sabotage, aren’t you?

                  Oops.

                  • Gosman …
                    15 August 2016 at 12:45 am

                    Do you honestly think the decision to “frack” for oil in the US was to screw with the Venezuelan economy?

                    • In Vino …
                      15 August 2016 at 5:20 pm

                      For profit in general, and then the Russian economy, but Venezuela was no doubt a minor bonus, much to your joy.

                  • Chuck …
                    17 August 2016 at 2:45 pm

                    “It makes no sense at all.”

                    Of course it does my friend…that is why you are reduced to playing the English teacher.

                    “By the way, it was USA fracking that caused oil prices to fall. But you are one of those who denies any kind of US sabotage, aren’t you?”

                    Venezuela was sabotaged by Socialism.

        • Halfcrown 1.2.1.3
          14 August 2016 at 6:56 pm

          “This is exactly what has occured in Venezuela (and lots of other countries).”

          Name em

          To give you a start I will name one for you, Ukraine. Please carry on

        • Philj 1.2.1.4
          14 August 2016 at 10:54 pm

          Hi Gos
          Can you please explain what is happening in US politics right now when right wingers have voted in Trump to lead them and his party are trying their best to oust him? A lengthy analysis would be welcome. Cheers

    • One Anonymous Bloke 1.3
      14 August 2016 at 9:10 am

      What happened to global sugar prices over the period in question?

      • Gosman 1.3.1
        14 August 2016 at 9:35 am

        Largely irrelevant in the context of domestic production for a domestic market. Why can’t Venezuelan producers of sugar do so cheaper than foreign producers?

        • One Anonymous Bloke 1.3.1.1
          14 August 2016 at 10:41 am

          Please post a link to a graph that compares Venezuelan domestic sugar prices with global prices over the period 1950 – 2016.

          Then, provide an in-depth detailed multi-referenced analysis of sugar production, its history and methods, both globally and in Venezuela, so that I can put your assertions in context while I think about them.

          • Nelson Muntz 1.3.1.1.1
            14 August 2016 at 11:11 am

            Hahahahaha. LIAR. Like YOU would ever post that kind of detailed analysis if ever called to task.

            Bwahahahahaha.

          • Reddelusion 1.3.1.1.2
            14 August 2016 at 6:22 pm

            I am not sure you showing off that you may have done a paper in post grad research techniques is really adding anything here OAB

            • One Anonymous Bloke 1.3.1.1.2.1
              14 August 2016 at 6:31 pm

              I have not done a paper in post grad research techniques. Perhaps I should write one, since they seem so friggin’ obvious.

              In your own words, explain the sum of Gosman’s contribution to this and/or any other debate on this forum.

              • stunned mullet …
                14 August 2016 at 7:33 pm

                Sum Contribution Gosman = Sum Contribution OAB = 0

              • Reddelusion …
                15 August 2016 at 11:41 am

                He is challenging group think on this site The response to challenging sacred lefty dogma with empirical observation highlights the religious zealotry and hate held by many here to any challenge to such dogma The right in turn are a lot more comfortable to ideas been challenged without the tantrums

                • framu …
                  15 August 2016 at 12:34 pm

                  “He is challenging group think on this site ”

                  no – hes posing straw man time wasting goal post shifting arguments, just like he always does

        • joe90 1.3.1.2
          14 August 2016 at 11:36 am

          Why can’t Venezuelan producers of sugar do so cheaper than foreign producers?

          Perhaps the owners of the Venezuelan sugar cooperatives have decided that while up to 69% of sugar cane workers in other producer nations are affected by Chronic Kidney Disease, it’s not for them.

          http://sugarcane-solidaridad.org/combatting-epidemic-chronic-kidney-disease-amongst-canecutters

          http://www.aaas.org/news/science-researchers-hunt-origin-enigmatic-kidney-disease

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_nephropathy

          • miravox 1.3.1.2.1
            14 August 2016 at 6:58 pm

            I hear the Philippines is importing sugar this year too. I guess the Coca Cola factories in Venezuela (ironic that the symbol of American affluence is produced there) aren’t importing from there.

    • mikesh 1.4
      14 August 2016 at 9:30 am

      It may be due to a move from “sweated labour” to improved working conditions. Or fewer workers wanting to work in the sugar fields when better jobs were available elsewhere.

    • save nz 1.5
      14 August 2016 at 10:03 am

      Yep, Sugar is so good for you Gosman. I too am deeply concerned, but more about what concerns the right wing mindset. Worrying about sugar exports and I believe our very own government is deeply worried about luggage at present….

    • adam 1.6
      14 August 2016 at 2:06 pm

      When are you going to own up about the toilet paper Gosman?

      Seriously every time you open your mouth about Venezuela I just think you are talking a load of rubbish.

      You lied for weeks about the toilet paper issue, and when it was pointed out that the supermarkets artificially created a crisis around toilet paper, you said nothing?

      So to answer you question – why do right wingers lie and cheat the system, then blame the left for it?

      • North 1.6.1
        14 August 2016 at 8:13 pm

        My God……I hear your frustration Adam but remember……it’s not your fault that Gosman’s a twisted lying zealot with not a care for the world……aside from the miniscule and putrid part of it he inhabits. I mean who the fuck would regularly get on a more or less left wing blog and spiel such cruelty as moral gospel ? That’s a head that needs seeing to in my book. Poor man. Pity the people he/she lives with……if any.

        • In Vino 1.6.1.1
          14 August 2016 at 10:31 pm

          From what I have read in the time I have been reading, I think you have sussed Gosman very well, North.

  2. Tautoko Mangō Mata 2
    14 August 2016 at 8:53 am

    Maybe a shift to stevia production could be better long term move for Venezuela. Stevia is grown in Brazil and Paraguay so may do ok in Venezuela. Getting rid of Coke is probably a positive change for Venezuela and the health of its citizens.

    • Gosman 2.1
      14 August 2016 at 9:26 am

      You are aware that simply because they don’t produce the product locally doesn’t mean they aren’t buying it aren’t you? They are importing it from other countries instead. This is costing them precious foreign exchange which they lack.

      • Garibaldi 2.1.1
        14 August 2016 at 9:45 am

        Gosman you are a bore. If you can’t do your own delving into USA overt and covert interference in central and southern American economies then go back to burying your head in the sand .

        • Gosman 2.1.1.1
          14 August 2016 at 10:20 am

          No, I challenge you to explain how US interference could lead to a catastrophic drop in production of sugar (amongst other products).

          Your argument would be like stating the reason the USSR failed was because of US interference. There is a element of truth that the US was undermining the Soviet Union but the system itself was at fault for its eventual collapse.

          • Xanthe 2.1.1.1.1
            14 August 2016 at 11:04 am

            How could it not !

            • In Vino 2.1.1.1.1.1
              14 August 2016 at 5:44 pm

              Well, it cracked under the pressure of an arms race imposed by a technologically superior USA. But the fairy tale is that Capitalism is just so much better. No mention of the inconvenient fact that all the rich countries have been capitalist, and that no heavily industrialised, rich country has tried anything else, unless you go downscale to include Scandinavian countries small enough and isolated enough not to face that ire of American Capitalism in the way that Cuba, Chile, and Venezuela have had to do, along with others…

  3. Anne 3
    14 August 2016 at 10:16 am

    I have just watched the most appalling ever attempt on Q&A to politically assassinate Labour’s leader, Andrew Little. So much so that someone, somewhere, needs to publicly condemn TV1 for what was clearly a premeditated and politically motivated attempt to discredit him.

    The panel guests consisted of Bryce Edwards, Phil Quin and Heather Roy. The subject matter… Nick Leggett. There was no attempt to explain what happened or what Little said – or why. Instead the public was subjected to a long rant from Phil Quin (which was why he was invited in the first place) about a restaurant dinner in Auckland where he and Nick Leggott spoke to the people gathered. Yeah… he talked about American politics – nothing else – and we weren’t told what Leggett spoke about but we can guess. According to Quin it was all an imagined conspiracy on Little’s part, but no-one (other than beltway types) would have known what he was talking about except that… Andrew Little is a really bad guy and so is the Labour Party.

    The most telling moment was when Bryce Edwards tried to add his contribution – which I suspect was going to bring some semblance of balance to the discussion – but he was cut off by the host (whose name escapes me) and on came some ads. But not before a surprised Edwards let out an “aaagh” of frustration. Deliberate? You bet!

    • Karen 3.1
      14 August 2016 at 10:30 am

      You should do a Broadcastings Standards complaint Anne.

      I didn’t see it but it is very clearly lacking in balance with a panel like that. Roy is from ACT, Quin has been criticising Labour for decades now, wanting a return to the Rogernomics era. In the 1990s he tried to organise a coup against Helen Clark and Bryce Edwards is, at best, centrist. There should have been someone who could argue Labour’s position to meet the requirements of the act.

      • Anne 3.1.1
        14 August 2016 at 10:53 am

        Been down that road Karen. Took Q&A to the BSA over their handling of the Hobbit dispute – must have been around 2010/11. It was a total sham. They made it about Helen Kelly (who received a drubbing on the programme in question) and said she was… quite capable of looking after herself.

        My complaint had nothing to do with Helen Kelly as a person and whether she could look after herself. As if I would presume to be an arbiter of someone like Helen Kelly’s personal character anyway. Yes, I took the stinging rebuke personally, and just hoped that Helen Kelly (who I don’t personally know) did not buy their nonsense.

        Once bitten like that and twice shy.

        • Karen 3.1.1.1
          14 August 2016 at 1:29 pm

          I agree your complaint may not be upheld but it may make TVNZ be a bit more careful next time. They hate having to spend time justifying themselves to the BSA.

    • amirite 3.2
      14 August 2016 at 11:41 am

      This is just the start. The whole MSM are at it.
      But like they were always assuring us that no one outside the Wellington beltway cares about National’s dirty deeds like the Saudi sheep saga, the Panama Papers, homelessness, dodgy steel, etc etc etc – this time it may backfire, because nobody outside the Wellington beltway truly cares about the Nash/Leggett/Little conflict.

      • weston 3.2.1
        14 August 2016 at 6:24 pm

        I think the explanation as to why our media have become such toadys to the national party is quite simple They all voted blue .

    • stigie 3.3
      14 August 2016 at 1:26 pm

      Oh diddums Anne, this happens to Key all the time !

      • Gangnam Style 3.3.1
        15 August 2016 at 5:30 am

        “this happens to Key all the time !” Citation please, I have never seen Key beat up by the media, ever! Just 1 example will suffice.

    • Saarbo 3.4
      14 August 2016 at 1:50 pm

      National Party suck up Tracy Watkin’s piece on this issue…
      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/83106498/Labours-tent-no-longer-big-enough-for-the-right-wingers?cid=app-iPhone
      I suspect its the old story, Leggatt and Quin have contacts in the gallery who are happy to do some shit stirring.

      The funniest thing is that the panel reckoned Little should have been talking about “Nick Smith not Nick Leggat”, apparently he opened his stand up doing exactly that.

      But this is very clearly a beltway issue, its a shame Q&A have picked it up because they’ve been doing some excellent shows lately, imho.

      • Karen 3.4.1
        14 August 2016 at 2:24 pm

        And it seems Stacey Kirk has joined in the let’s do some Andrew Little bashing.

        http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/83097599/stacey-kirk-opportunity-squandered-labour-flounders-without-focus

        This now is starting to look like an orchestrated beat up. Who is behind it? It was gallery journalists who brought up the topic when questioning Little so someone has primed them Quin? Pagani? Leggett? My guess is Quin.

        Shame that so many gallery journalists have swallowed this.

        • Chuck 3.4.1.1
          14 August 2016 at 3:30 pm

          “This now is starting to look like an orchestrated beat up. Who is behind it?”

          Most likely it was “black ops team alpha 2 bravo” 🙂

          Come on really though…Andrew Little was a idiot and brought it on himself.

          • North 3.4.1.1.1
            14 August 2016 at 8:32 pm

            You know I’m going back donkeys’ years like 40 when a minor ‘journalist’ in Wellington said to me “Well how can Norman Kirk control a country when he can’t even control his own weight?” and then another household name journalist Spiro Zavos said to me when challeneged about the legalities of racist South African rugby tours……”I’ve done Legal System” (the Law 101 at Vic’ at the time).

            I have to say this. Our ‘jonolists’ being intellectually and socially pretty much nothing, cannot be trusted other than to pos’ themselves so as to lick the arse of power. In the expectation of being rewarded for it. By the arses they lick. And then they get ‘oh so up their own arses’ when it seems to work. Trev’ of the Hearld for example, junketing with Key.

            They are basically very poor examples of humanity. To a man and a woman not very bright. Otherwise they would have done ‘Law’. Not that the rote shit of ‘Law’ speaks of bright. We are so ill-served by the media.

            They are such wannabees. And double-shotters. Saw Duncan Garner and his production man I guess, all skinny jeans and florid shirts and RM Williams boots disporting themselves in McDonalds in Wellsford 7.00 am one morning. Talking loud, musing loud, “look at me look at me” Fuck ! what cheapies. In Kaikohe they mighta’ got a well deserved hiding for being so up-themselves waha’.

          • Gangnam Style 3.4.1.1.2
            15 August 2016 at 5:34 am

            Chuck, Jason Ede ran a Dirty Politics “black ops team alpha 2 bravo” from John Keys office, tax payer funded dirty tricks where he had access to secret SIS files (for PMs eyes only!) where he had a network of complacent journos & bloggers to smear the opposition & manipulate the last few elections. So there is form of state sponsored smearing & you seemingly support it?

            • Chuck 3.4.1.1.2.1
              15 August 2016 at 9:12 am

              Cry me a river…

              So called Dirty Politics is played by all sides.

              Ann has just posted this below “I noted some comments from Quin the other day about some very, very nasty stuff doing the rounds about him after he left Labour. How did he know it came from L.P. members?”

              That’s a form of “dirty politics”…do I care? no.

        • Anne 3.4.1.2
          14 August 2016 at 6:23 pm

          Who is behind it?

          My guess… all 3 of them – Quin, Pagani and Leggett. Josie loves hanging out with TV celebrities and Gallery types. They are happy to oblige her for tidbits from the enemy camp – Labour. Since I doubt she’s still a member (certainly not an active one) she doesn’t actually know anything of worth.

          I noted some comments from Quin the other day about some very, very nasty stuff doing the rounds about him after he left Labour. How did he know it came from L.P. members? If there was anything it was confined to the Wellington beltway. Never heard a whisper in Auckland. Have my doubts it was as serious as he’s making out, but all good with which to bash Labour over the head.

  4. Nck 4
    14 August 2016 at 10:26 am

    This Gorman reminds me of ShonKey…… Ask him to put up some evidence , and he goes off on to some other blah mindless drivel….. Key does it to use up media airtime….. Sounds good and confident, but no substance….. And certainly no answer.

  5. Robert Guyton 5
    14 August 2016 at 10:30 am

    “No, I challenge you…”
    Tan

    Trum

  6. Robert Guyton 6
    14 August 2016 at 10:46 am

    Sunday morning, I’ll take a look at The Standard for a while, to see what interesting topics are being discussed there…what’s this? Some person named “Gosman” is demanding we answer questions on his chosen topic! How quaint he is! How petulant and righteous he acts when people point to his churlish behaviour.
    Other threads, thankfully, are not infested with his pabulum. I’m look to those.

  7. coffee connoissuer 7
    14 August 2016 at 10:55 am

    I started a business 10 years ago this November. I started it because I wanted to generate passive income. I wanted enoughy passive income so that I could as much as possible live the life I want to live. It is my life afterall.
    To make this happen there are others who work for me. For many years and still to this day they have been paid and I have not.
    If I could I would generatew enough passive income and put in place enough automation so that those working for me no longer had to work unecessarily eaither and could then live the life that they each in turn would like to live.

    The realisation I came to and the reason I am wqriting this is that in my view every single person should have passive income. Every person should be ( in a good system…. one designed to work for us ) able to live the life they want to live.

    Each person should be able to meet their essential basic needs for themselves and their family. Our system doesnt enable this. People are run ragged and in talking to those in the community the one thing everyone lacks is time.

    Time is the other thing that is required for me and you and everyone else to be able to live the life that we would like to live. Whatever that life may be and yours will differ from mine and thats ok.

    Having passive income that is enough to live on gives you time also. Time so that you can live the life you want to live.

    In living the lives we want to live we currently have to work to earn money in order to survive let alone be able to live the life we want to live. So before we can do that we have two barrieres we need to overcome under the current system. We need to make money for ourselves (enough to live the life we want to live) and before we can do that we need a job of some description.

    A system that enables humans or in other words a good system does not put in place barriers. In facrt it seeks to remove them.
    Having an entire system where everyone has passive income removes those barriers.
    We then have a system that enables each and everyone of us and gives us the time to life the lives we each would like to live.

    In our current system their are limited options to enable this to happen and each of them is a barrier to having a system of passive income so each of these should not be used but an entirely new and different way found to enable a better system.
    The current options are

    tax and redistribute wealth – somewhat illogical if you are changing the system to one that gives people money. Why would you take it from some in the first place besides this only gives those it is being taken from a reason to vote against it.

    Increase debt to pay for it. We struggle to pay for essential services such as health and education as it is and we have the highest debt our nation has ever had. It is also counter intuitive to a system designed to give people money to enable them to live the life they want top live. Debt forces people rto work not because the work is rewquired and needs to be done for society, No it requires work top be done to earn money to pay back the debt. It is enslavement by debt so again not a good option.

    Printing money well this simply in the current system devalues the currency and reduces purchasaing power so not necessarily a good option either at lewast not within the current currency markets.

    Nobody said we had to have a debt based monetary system and if having one enslaves people at a time where there are going to be less jobs available therough technological automation then perhaps we should be looking at the same technological automation to replace thew debt based monetary system with one that generates passive income for everyone and enables us all to have time and to be able to live the life we eaxch woulsd like to live. Not only for us but for every single generation that comes after us.

    • RedLogix 7.1
      14 August 2016 at 11:45 am

      A thoughtful comment CC. Here is an alternative:

      http://burningman.org/culture/philosophical-center/10-principles/

      In the context of the festival it works. It changes lives, it opens up a whole sense of possibilities that are entirely shut down in ‘normal life’.

      • joe90 7.1.1
        14 August 2016 at 11:52 am

        Scratch a hippy…….

        Participation sounds egalitarian, but it leads to some interesting contradictions. The most elaborate camps and spectacles tend to be brought by the rich because they have the time, the money, or both, to do so. Wealthier attendees often pay laborers to build and plan their own massive (and often exclusive) camps. If you scan San Francisco’s Craigslist in the month of August, you’ll start to see ads for part-time service labor gigs to plump the metaphorical pillows of wealthy Burners.

        The rich also hire sherpas to guide them around the festival and wait on them at the camp. Some burners derogatorily refer to these rich person camps as “turnkey camps.”

        https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/08/burning-man-one-percent-silicon-valley-tech/

        • RedLogix 7.1.1.1
          14 August 2016 at 12:00 pm

          And yet the festival thrives despite these aberrations. The people who go truly come in all shapes, sizes and agendas. It’s inevitable there will be contradictions and tensions. With in excess of 60,000 people in one place, it’s far too big to experience the whole of it in the time you are there.

          But the point is that for just one week, many people get to live an alternative way of experiencing the world … and that alone energises them.

    • gsays 7.2
      14 August 2016 at 12:15 pm

      hi cc, thanx for the comment.

      how about a worker owned business, organised along burning man/permaculture principles, looking to transfer to a sharing economy?

      less about $ (although they are handy), but stronger in building communities, bringing together the like minded and showing a powerful positive example of cooperation.

  8. RedLogix 8
    14 August 2016 at 11:41 am

    You gotta love Iceland. First they tell the global banking system to fuck off, then the world’s first lesbian PM … and now this:

    One of Europe’s most radical political parties is expected to gain its first taste of power after Iceland’s ruling coalition and opposition agreed to hold early elections caused by the Panama Papers scandal in October.

    The Pirate party, whose platform includes direct democracy, greater government transparency, a new national constitution and asylum for US whistleblower Edward Snowden, will field candidates in every constituency and has been at or near the top of every opinion poll for over a year.

    As befits a movement dedicated to reinventing democracy through new technology, it also aims to boost the youth vote by persuading the company developing Pokémon Go in Iceland to turn polling stations into Pokéstops.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/12/polls-suggests-icelands-pirate-party-form-next-government

    • whispering kate 8.1
      14 August 2016 at 1:07 pm

      I can see another Turkey event here – with outside interests stoking unrest. Heaven forbid that a country would offer Edward Snowden asylum and direct democracy, that’s never going to happen – to close to the US and his sphere of interest. Fun times ahead for the plucky Iceland. Would that we could grow some cajones and do something similar..

    • ianmac 8.2
      14 August 2016 at 3:57 pm

      The USA still has a base on the North East of Iceland I think. They will have an interest in politics!
      Icelanders think that the name Iceland is a bit strange since Iceland is a very green country yet Greenland is almost totally covered in snow and therefore be better called Iceland.
      And yes Iceland has people-power and holds their money players accountable. A model for us?

  9. rhinocrates 9
    14 August 2016 at 1:15 pm

    How self-pity turns toxic, how demagogues use it, and where it leads:

    http://thebaffler.com/salvos/pity-o-god-republican-faludi

  10. rhinocrates 10
    14 August 2016 at 1:37 pm

    People may have heard of the “Alt-right”, championed by the likes of the racist troll Milo Yiannopoulos. It’s a mish-mash of reactionary conservatism (of the Gamergate variety), right-wing libertarianism, “meritocracy” and neoliberalism that inevitably metasizes into oligarchism and adulation of dictatorship.

    It’s apparently rife among the tech industries and attracts many who at one stage might have described themselves as liberal. I’ve a few friends from Europe old enough to remember the first time around…

    http://thebaffler.com/blog/mouthbreathing-machiavellis

    https://medium.com/welcome-to-the-scream-room/im-with-the-banned-8d1b6e0b2932#.mri33abl3

    http://boingboing.net/2015/01/28/a-beginners-guide-to-the-red.html

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/05/05/meet-milo-yiannopoulos-the-appealing-young-face-of-the-racist-alt-right.html

  11. Poission 11
    14 August 2016 at 1:50 pm

    Thought for the day,ethics of civil service

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CpvqwWMWEAAMfJ7.jpg:large

    • gsays 11.1
      14 August 2016 at 2:34 pm

      Hi Poisson, that link helps to explain how aspartame, phenolanylin(?) etc got into the food system.
      ‘Sabbaticals’ for executives between Monsanto and the fda.

      Civil service indeed!

  12. Sabine 12
    14 August 2016 at 3:04 pm

    in the meantime over in the us another riot brewing after another ‘fleeing’ suspect was killed.
    the worlds has become a fucked place

    http://www.ustream.tv/channel/ex414

  13. swordfish 13
    14 August 2016 at 5:33 pm

    Wayyyy past time for another Colmar Brunton. Always release on a Sunday. There’ll be tears before bed-time if we don’t see one in about half an hour …

    • ianmac 13.1
      14 August 2016 at 6:37 pm

      Perhaps such a poll has bad news for the Government so they have sent it back to be checked and “adjusted?”

      • swordfish 13.1.1
        14 August 2016 at 6:58 pm

        I’ve just got into my Jim-Jams – the ones with the little WWI RAF and Fokker biplanes all over them – I’m now in the process of running upstairs to comb my hair and brush my teeth and then I’ll be tucked up in bed, with tears streaming down my cheeks.

        Tomorrow, I might have a bit of a tantrum when I’m in the Supermarket, lying on my back, kicking my feet up in the air. Manager will no doubt come over and ask sympathetically: “Oh now, what’s upsetting ya, young fella, eh ???”. Between all the crying and sobbing, all I’ll be able to blurt out is “Colmar Brunton, No Colmar Brunton !!!”.

        • b waghorn 13.1.1.1
          14 August 2016 at 8:15 pm

          i’ve had half a day with a lap top refusing to pick up wifi i was bloody close to tantrum time my self , fortunately for me one of the many icons or buttons i pushed did the trick, buggered i know which one though.

          • Andre 13.1.1.1.1
            14 August 2016 at 8:29 pm

            Been there done that. On mine it turned out there is a little slide switch on the side that turned the wifi on and off.

        • North 13.1.1.2
          14 August 2016 at 9:21 pm

          Swordfish love the story of your jim-jams ! But no Swordfish, no tears please. His Effeteness is gone by 2017 if not before.

  14. Anne 14
    14 August 2016 at 7:21 pm

    Oh dear, you’ve got it bad swordfish. But don’t worry. It probs. coming tomorrow night – the day after they did the Q&A hatchet job on Andrew Little.

  15. joe90 15
    14 August 2016 at 8:07 pm

    Once in 500 year flood number eight.

    An instant analysis from Climate Nexus refers to today’s Louisiana rainstorm as a “classic signal of climate change.” It’s right. The NWS maintains a statistical database used to calculate the “annual exceedance probability” of a given rainfall event — basically, the expected frequency this event would occur in any given year.

    Today’s rainstorm in Louisiana is at least the eighth 500-year rainfall event across America in little more than a year, including similarly extreme downpours in Oklahoma last May, central Texas (twice: last May and last October), South Carolina last October, northern Louisiana this March, West Virginia in June, and Maryland last month.

    https://psmag.com/americas-latest-500-year-rainstorm-is-underway-right-now-in-louisiana-98acbdf435d0#.c59wau8hn

    More from Jeff Masters.

    https://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/record-flooding-in-southeast-louisiana-may-get-worse

  16. Robert Guyton 16
    14 August 2016 at 8:26 pm

    “Remember when Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg decided to help “fix” Newark’s public schools? In 2010, Zuckerberg — perhaps hoping to improve his image after his callous depiction in biopic The Social Network — donated $100 million to Newark’s education system to overhaul Newark schools.

    The money was directed as a part of then–Newark Mayor Cory Booker’s plan to remake the city into the “charter school capital of the nation,” bypassing public oversight through partnership with private philanthropists.

    Traditionally, public education has been interwoven with the democratic process: in a given school district, the community elects the school board every few years. School boards then make public decisions and deliberations. Zuckerberg’s donation, and the project it was attached to, directly undermined this democratic process by promoting an agenda to privatize public schools, destroy local unions, disempower teachers, and put the reins of public education into the hands of technocrats and profiteers.”

    https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/08/burning-man-one-percent-silicon-valley-tech/

  17. North 17
    14 August 2016 at 8:59 pm

    Money rules whatever the provenance, even if it be seeming good guy ‘giving back’…….money rules. We know this.

  18. Paul 18
    14 August 2016 at 9:20 pm

    Remember Peter Talley got knighted.
    We honour the wrong people in this country.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/wanganui-chronicle/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503423&objectid=11693272

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